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	::Thanks for the typo fix. And and overview of historians does exist and can be stated per ], given the sources in the article: In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 ''Forged : writing in the name of God'' ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285 as well as all the other sources in the existence section that say the same. I will bring that ref further upfront, however. ] (]) 05:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)		::Thanks for the typo fix. And and overview of historians does exist and can be stated per ], given the sources in the article: In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 ''Forged : writing in the name of God'' ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285 as well as all the other sources in the existence section that say the same. I will bring that ref further upfront, however. ] (]) 05:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

			:::Historians' opinions are irrelevant when there are no primary sources talking about Jesus. ] 08:18, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

	== The Book of Mormon ==		== The Book of Mormon ==

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: What should this article be named? A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname. Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates? A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format. Q3: Did Jesus exist? A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian? A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others? A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc. Q6: Why is the infobox so brief? A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus? A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions. Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences? A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians. Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus? A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion. Q10: Why does the article state "ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this? A10: Misplaced Pages requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

To-do list for Jesus: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2013-06-02

Talk:Jesus/archivebox

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Edit request on 26 June 2012

Please add the following source:

G Schiller, Iconography of Christian Art, Vol. I,1971 (English trans from German), Lund Humphries, London, p 135, figs 150-53, 346-54. ISBN 853312702

To the statement: A cruciform halo was worn only by Jesus (and the other persons of the Trinity), while plain halos distinguished Mary, the Apostles and other saints, helping the viewer to read increasingly populated scenes. It explains it in the source and helps the article remain verifiable. 86.148.198.210 (talk) 15:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, given that Schiller is in fact one of the best sources on the subject. History2007 (talk) 16:27, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

GA status yet?

This article looks pretty good - an almost comprehensive coverage, flooded with inline references and compared with the German article which is a featured article (though not nearly as good as this one, I think this one surely should be made GA status. Reading through past discussions, there may be a few potential improvements, but I think these can be fixed easily enough. 86.167.230.150 (talk) 18:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Partially agreed - the article is fairly good. A couple of drawbacks:

The Bahá'í views section currently has an OR tag. History and Arsenal can probably find reliable sources for this section and change it if it's not too accurate.
The article is at times very unstable. One of the GA criteria is that there are no edit wars, so yes, you are right in that sense.

Some more experienced editors will probably be able to find more, but yes, I think that it's a great idea and it would be really nice to get this to GA status. JZ CL 18:48, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I am not familiar enough with Bahá'í views to do it justice. Please ask user:Jeff3000, as discussed in the archives. He knows that topic better than most other editors around. As for GA status, as I have said before, it means nothing to me, but whoever likes it, can like it. History2007 (talk) 19:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I have just looked at why the article was delisted. It can be found here for any editors that it would help. It seems that it was delisted because there were a lot of stubby sections, (sorted) there were uncited sections (I've gone through the article and checked, there are no CN tags or uncited section - except possibly the last point in the lead paragraph). Anyway, the point I'm making is that I think that the main issues have now been fixed and some editiors more knowledgable in this topic than me may be able to get it to that status. I'll ask Jeff3000 for his input. JZ CL 19:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, History, GA status is a way of Misplaced Pages readers knowing that the article they are reading is relaible and accurate. JZ CL 19:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I know. Over 90% of the article changed since the delisting anyway. History2007 (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I like the idea of getting the article back up to GA, and it does look like a lot of the complaints have been resolved. Unfortunately, the content has been dramatically changed in the interim, making that single fact rather less than telling. Maybe, after the Bahai matter is sorted out, we can ask for peer review again, and I can check the relevant reference sources I can find and check to see if there are any obvious flaws or lacks. If we had comments indicating that this article has what other reference sources have in similar articles, that would I think help the GA reviewer a lot in making his decision. John Carter (talk) 19:50, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed; it's a good idea John. After peer review, the article should definitely be in line to GA status. JZ CL 20:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Except for the three sections on Bahai , Islamic and Jewish views, I have double checked every single reference in this article. As of March 2011 90% of the items were double checked, changed or modified. The previous review was fr a different article. Not that I am going to spend time on it again, but check the references and you will see that apart from those 3 sections they will be almost 99% correct. Johnbod added to the depictions section (and he often uses Schiller) so the IP caught that one. But the rest should be in very good shape. But let them be checked again and again. No worries. But let me make it clear that I am not that active on these things and will not be spending much time on the peer review issues. History2007 (talk) 20:17, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Jeff has now agreed to look at the Bahai section on Sunday and Monday, so this should be hopefully OK. JZ CL 06:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

That leaves the Jewish and Islamic views, which might get a bit more dicey, particularly Jewish views. I can try to deal with that material myself on Monday or Tuesday, but I'm not sure right now how much information sources will have on them. John Carter (talk) 17:46, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Review after looking at Jones Encyclopedia of Religion article in comparison, with comments.

1) Thee articul, it be long. 252K. The article in the Jones Encyclopedia is too, pp. 4843-4854, or about .1% of the entire frikking encyclopedia. I don't think that necessarily matters for GA, but still, it be long. 586 reference citaions might be a record too, I don't know. That makes it a bit harder to judge everything, particularly considering relative weight and emphasis.
2) According to p. 4848, "The most important sources for Jesus are found in the New Testament..." Taking that into account, and AGFing that the NT has been consulted, the section on Jesus's life according to the NT is more or less as good, and based on the best sources available, as one could expect.
3) Section 4 about historical views seems good, although it seems to me based on the only other book I've consulted that maybe it might be easier to break that section up into subsections by century, like in Jones, because that might allow related ideas from single scholars to be included as one unit. Otherwise, no real problems.
4) Section 5. The Bahai actually aren't even mentioned in the EoR Jesus article, although as an Abrahamic faith they certainly deserve some attention. Surprisingly, Hinduism gets a rather longish paragraph, with Gandhi finding the Sermon on the Mount as described by Tolstoy to be profoundly true, and Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan's "sophisticated, philosophical interpretation of Jesus." Other Jewish ideas are referenced as well, including the Karaites who thought Jesus was a true Jewish martyr whose identity Christianity distorted, Martin Buber calling him a "great brother" who has a "great place ... in Israel's history of faith," (p. 4845, no citation from Buber given). Pinchas Lapide went so far as to say, while Jesus was not the Messiah, he "expressed belief in Jesus' resurrection and acknowledged him as God's prophet to the Gentiles." (p. 4845). In its section on "Jesus outside the church," 6 paragraphs, it has one longish paragraph on Judaism, a shorter one on Islam, another longish on Hinduism, and then three short ones of the "especially characteristic of modern times" views of Dostoevskii, Nietzche, and Marx.

Having said all that, I really can't see anything which might be sufficient to withhold GA based on the text, but some of those might be relevant to FA. John Carter (talk) 21:48, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

There was a Hindu section, poorly sourced, and it was discussed on talk and trimmed back. Nietzsche is already in the criticism section (Marx may be given a sentence if you find one).. Your point about Gandhi and Sermon on the Mount may mean that something about "good things said" may need to balance the criticism section. Kristubhagavatam may not exactly apply, but there is plenty out there that say things similar to the last paragraph of that page. Yet if you add any type of "praise for Jesus" you will be asking for never ending talk page debate. Buy a few boxes of Aspirin before doing that. I think you either need to get the Bahai group to fix that section or trim it yourself. Their help has been sought a few times now. History2007 (talk) 23:28, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The Bahai group has, unfortunately, never really been that much of a group, but just a few dedicated editors. But I don't think that their involvement is necessarily required, at least for GA. FA might be a different matter. John Carter (talk) 23:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, GA means nothing to me (because the person doing the assessment does not necessarily need to know anything about the topic, and any 12 year old may perform a GA review). But the Bahai editors would be the ones who would "get it right" - others would be guessing. History2007 (talk) 00:12, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

By the way, on the Buddhism note, I just added the overall scholarly view that the stories of Jesus going to India and learning about Buddhism are flatly rejected by modern scholars, given that this type of junk is getting added right and left to other pages. The Historical Jesus page is so bad, I would not even touch it from 10 yards away with a wireless keyboard, but at least those issues need to be clarified here. History2007 (talk) 04:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Apologies in advance

I realize this has been discussed ad infinitum, but as this article is going for GA-status, I feel I have to throw my 2 cents in regarding the BC/BCE situation. I'm not here to argue for either style; I'm here to argue that using both styles makes us look ridiculous as an encyclopedia. And as (I would hope) the goal of every GA is to achieve FA-status, I truly feel that this is going to need to be resolved at some point. My proposal: Go back to the earliest stable version of this article. If it used BC/AD, go with that. If it used BCE/CE, go with that. Then hand out lengthy blocks to anyone who changes the style, in the absence of firm consensus. I realize I'm opening a can of worms here, and I realize many of you will be quick to tell me exactly what I can do with my proposal. But I had to get this off my chest. Thank you, and again, my sincere apologies to those users who have worked hard on this article, and may consider my rant here to be obtrusive and disruptive. I assure you that is not my intention. Joefromrandb (talk) 21:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

No worries at all. Is it ridiculous to use both? But of course. Yet, C'est la vie, of course. As for grave digging on what was used first, I think that goes back too far. The best way would be to seek consensus on what should be done now. History2007 (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure it is ridiculous. It may be an adequate compromise to an intractable and rather unimportant controversy. I predict that a straw poll would be fairly evenly split - how to achieve consensus from that? Perhaps it is better if we choose our battles, and just leave the status quo alone here. Elizium23 (talk) 22:18, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Consensus for what people think now would be ideal, as would Communism. I do not mean this disrespectfully, only that either requires a lot of work to achieve that a lot of people don't want do or even let happen.

In my own writing, I'll use BC/AD for Christianity related topics, and BCE/CE for topics on which Christianity does not maintain a monopoly. When writing anything about Jesus (who is of central importance to Christianity, but do not maintain a monopoly on Him, however), I alternate based on my audience. As such, I cannot make up my own mind whether I'd prefer to use only BCE/CE or BC/AD.

Splitting between Jesus Christ (the figure in Christianity, using BC/AD) and Jesus of Nazareth (the historical figure, using BCE/CE) would be one (bad) option, but even the Nestorians would be shaking their head at that, as it opens up the door to all kinds of POV abuses that come with content forks.

All this makes me seriously wish we'd just convert to the Human Era and call it a day. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

For the record, the original usage was BC/AD, which was used for about 3 years before the hybrid usage was implemented. I am on the fence about the issue. I agree that the hybrid usage is a bit clunky, and I would personally prefer the BC/AD usage, but it is a very sensitive issue for many people and if the alternative is a massive firestorm and waste of editor-hours then I think we can live with a little clunk. -- LWG 23:35, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

So the long and short of it is that changing it will be a large headache. So, let it be then. History2007 (talk) 06:29, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Crucifixion darkness and eclipse

I feel that this article is interesting one and it should be added to .

http://en.wikipedia.org/Crucifixion_darkness_and_eclipse

Right? :)

FirstSonOfKrypton (talk) 03:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

That article is full of speculation, possiblys, maybes, and probably nots. I'm not sure what you want added, but that doesn't seem a good source for anything certain. HiLo48 (talk) 03:39, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that would be a serious detour. It is mentioned in the Crucifixion of Jesus article, but would be totally peripheral here. History2007 (talk) 06:31, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Historians on Jesus

I have two things to point out. One, the "e" at the end of the first "The" in the second paragraph is missing, and second, as a census of historians likely does not exist regarding this topic, I believe the second paragraph should be reworded as "Many historians believe...". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.248.208.182 (talk) 04:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the "e". As for your second issue, you may very well have a point, but I'll leave it to others more familiar with the topic to decide. Joefromrandb (talk) 04:14, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the typo fix. And and overview of historians does exist and can be stated per WP:RS/AC, given the sources in the article: In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285 as well as all the other sources in the existence section that say the same. I will bring that ref further upfront, however. History2007 (talk) 05:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Historians' opinions are irrelevant when there are no primary sources talking about Jesus. Watch this and upcoming videos in the series. ♆ CUSH ♆ 08:18, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

The Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/Book_of_Mormon) is a book with an extensive history that includes the ministry of Jesus Christ in the American Continent. Please add in this page, the info about Jesus history available in the Book of Mormon and link it to http://en.wikipedia.org/Book_of_Mormon. I will not do this because if i do, it will be a waste of time because someone is going to delete it even if is a direct copy of another already approved wikipedia article. Misplaced Pages administrators keep deleting stuff that is anyways available somewhere else in wikipedia.

I just noticed that in the same wikipedia page in spanish language there is that entry (It does not explain about the Book of Mormon) but at least it is clear and fair. http://es.wikipedia.org/Jes%C3%BAs_de_Nazaret — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.109.219.91 (talk • contribs)

What you wish to add is not supported by mainstream historians. If you read our article on the Book of Mormon, it does not present it's claims as historical truth as you would like. The reason that your suggested contribution would be deleted is because it is not supported by reliable sources. It is accurate to say that the LDS Church believes the Book of Mormon contains history of Jesus in the Americas, but we would also have to point out that no secular historian can find no evidence that the Book of Mormon or its contents existed before Joseph Smith "found" it, and secular scholars can find no similarity between the BoM's accounts and archaeological evidence.

Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source for Misplaced Pages, because we cite outside the site. Different language versions of Misplaced Pages still count as Misplaced Pages. What other language Misplaced Pages's do is their problem. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:57, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

And looking at the Spanish version, it appears that all they say is that Mormons believe Jesus saves people from physical and spiritual death, and that they also believe that after the resurrection Jesus visited the Americas. They do not say "the Book of Mormon is an extensive history that includes the ministry of Jesus in the Americas" as if it was a fact. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:02, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think if one looks at Holy Spirit (Christian denominational variations) it becomes clear how difficult the situation is. Adding material from multiple denominations will turn this into a Christian theology article. As is, Misplaced Pages does not do well in covering denominational differences, as is well illustrated in the Holy Spirit link above. A new article on "Christian Denominational views of Jesus" would have to handle that. But given the current state of affairs, is unlikely to materialize. And I think even the Ahmadiyya section here is pushing the envelope and should be folded into something not to get into Islamic or Christian denominational discussions. History2007 (talk) 22:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually not completely opposed to including due weight of the LDS church's view, as it is notably different, but I do object to treating the American visit as fact. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:28, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

But if we want to be equal opportunity presenters, if the LDS get space, the JW need to get it, then those against those groups want to get their piece... As you know most Christian denominations seem to read all of the Bible except John 13:34-35. So opening the door to denominational debates here will become Murder, She Wrote very quickly. History2007 (talk) 23:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

True, and another article probably would be more appropriate. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:02, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

LDS is fringe and Mormon views need not be included. The Book of Mormon, being the work of a well-known con man, has no status as any kind of reliable source anyways. ♆ CUSH ♆ 08:07, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Neither the Book of Mormon, nor the Bible itself, nor any other religious tract can be considered a reliable source. Whether Mormon views are fringe is a different question. I have no idea how we decide that. Neither Cush's opinion not mine count for anything really. HiLo48 (talk) 08:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

People's reasons for exclusion may be different here, but the conclusion is shared, regardless of the path used to get there. So we can probably consider this as concluded, with a decision not to include, based on a variety of opinions and reasons. History2007 (talk) 13:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it should be included either. Iongchamps4 (talk) 13:12, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

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