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Neutrality disputed.

I attempted to add a criticism section with critical content from former US House Representative from Colorado, Tom Tancredo, but it was promptly deleted, the editors note claiming that World Net Daily was a fringe source. I dont think he can be honestly said to represent a fringe view, given that he is an elected representative. He is controversial figure, but nevertheless, a notable person. Although one citation was from World Net Daily, Tancredo actually wrote the article, and I backed up his claims with other citations from the Seattle Times and Tolerance.org. WND is an admittedly right wing site but I am merely citing what Tancredo wrote, I'm not relying on them for any facts other than the undisputed fact that he wrote the article. Furthermore, SPLC is clearly a left-wing group, which many view as a fringe group, but it is nonetheless cited extensively as a reliable source of information, with no mention of it's leftward slant. So unless there must be something I don't understand, I think that this article should at least bear a neutrality disputed tag.

Also, World Net Daily was granted press credentials to cover the US Congress by the United States Senate Committee on Rules and Administration. So, I don't think it can be dismissed a fringe source. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_6_34/ai_93090045/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.138.24.47 (talk) 00:46, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

WND is not considered a reliable source for much of anything here. Please don't add a POV tag without extensive and active discussion either. I don't really disagree with the addition of the material as long as you get better sources. Falcon8765 00:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Yup, check out RSN, WND is not considered a reliable source and especially not for claims about living people (Potok). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:02, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

SPLC Not Credible. "Hate Group" Label a Tool of Hyper-Partisan Ideologues

It is completely absurd that no substantial criticism is allowed to exist in this article. SPLC is not viewed as some well-respected, objective think tank or anti-hate-group organization. The left wants them to be viewed that way, but deep down even they (at least those of them who ever leave the echo chamber even for a short while) know it's just a partisan attack group.

SPLC is a hyper-partisan and incredibly biased political group that misuses the term "hate group", not an intellectually honest "civil rights organization". The "hate group" label is what they use to raise funds and smear and intimidate political opponents. They give leftist groups a free pass. Their only aim is to denigrate conservative groups, with the exception of Muslim groups that may be deemed conservative since, being an intellectually bankrupt leftist organization, SPLC is ridiculously politically correct and thus can't be seen "attacking Muslims" (though I'm sure they'd make an exception for one that they can label as being less Muslim and more "conservative" in the American political sense). It treats the Family Research Council the same way as the KKK, yet it ignores the Islamic Circle of North America.

A reporter recently got them to admit much of this. When questioned about why they wouldn't track leftist groups, such as certain actually hateful and violent group linked to Occupy Wall Street that planned to blow up a bridge and bomb the Republican convention, they dodged the question again and again, but finally admitted this: "We're not really set up to cover the extreme Left." He went on to say they "only ever cover left-wing groups when they have a right-wing component".

"To call the Family Research Council a hate group is unacceptable. It’s inaccurate. It’s using the phrase in an ideological way." - Stephen Schwartz, executive director for the Center for Islamic Pluralism

NO ONE should take SPLC's lists seriously. Any actual hate group on there can and will be listed by other, actually reputable organizations. The Southern Poverty Law Center is a joke. It's just too bad that we've got so many jokers dutifully suppressing the truth here on Misplaced Pages.

SPLC is "not set up to cover the extreme Left"; they're set up to cover for the extreme Left. -- Glynth (talk) 22:38, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Your concern is noted. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 23:09, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

civil rights and miranda rights violation

Is this the page that I would state my case on or do you have another area that I must go to so I may explain my case and what happened to us? Please send me a text message to let me know so I don;t type all of this in the wrong area.

Thank You,

(Gaily59 (talk) 20:05, 10 August 2012 (UTC))

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but I think I can state with reasonable confidence that this page, and probably Misplaced Pages in general, is not the venue for it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Just to clarify: this page is for discussing changes to the article, Southern Poverty Law Center—nothing more, nothing less. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia; its content is based on information that's verifiable through reliable secondary sources, not personal testimony or anecdote. Please see WP:NOR. Rivertorch (talk) 22:06, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality

I have added a neutrality tag. It seems very strange that there is no criticism section. We have a few statements of criticism under finances, but nothing for other activities. Over at Talk:Family Research Council there has been a discussion over SPLC's action in adding groups to its list of hate groups - that particular incident may not belong on this page, but for the article to be neutral, it needs to cover criticism and/or perceptions of the SPLC. StAnselm (talk) 00:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

E.g. "the civil rights organization is receiving flak from critics on the right who say an overbroad definition of “hate” vilifies innocent people and stifles vigorous debate about issues critical to America's future" here. StAnselm (talk) 00:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:CRITICISM#Controversy_articles_and_sections; and please name specific criticism you feel should be in the article which is not. KillerChihuahua 01:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The above quote, I suppose, could go in the "Hate group listings" section. StAnselm (talk) 01:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you any other concerns? Any criticism you feel is notable which is not included in the article? KillerChihuahua 16:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Criticism sections are usually a bad idea - criticism should be put into the relevant sections, for example criticism of the use of the term "hate group" is included in the section about hate groups. Since there is little or no criticism of the SPLC in mainstream sources, we would not expect to have much criticism in the article. TFD (talk) 16:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we don't necessarily need a separate criticism section but where'd you get the idea that there is "little or no criticism of the SPLC in mainstream sources." You should know better from past discussions; and a fair amount of that criticism has come from moderate and left-leaning sources: The Montgomery Advertiser, the Better Business Bureau, Harper's Magazine, the Nation, Harvard Professor and anti-poverty activist Stephen Bright. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Just read that the Southern Poverty Law Center was critized by VDARE with which it seems to be in a kind of feud. This may be a starting point for the criticism section, see

• VDARE Endorsed by Southern Poverty Law Center! (Well, we regard it as an endorsement.) and
• The Speech That Launched An SPLC "Hate" Honor. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Badmintonhist, you need to provide sources. Gun Powder Ma has shown that a white nationalist hate group, lead by Peter Brimelow, has criticized the SPLC and that is typical of the types of sources of criticism I have seen. TFD (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

That is not appropriate content for this article. Every hate group protests their designation, and that belongs in their articles not here. KillerChihuahua 18:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree entirely. Not many readers will think that the groups the SPLC call hate groups welcome the designation, there's no reason have a statement from them in this article, it belongs in their articles. Dougweller (talk) 18:21, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) True. It's pretty much a given that organizations with racist, homophobic, and other unsavory components will have critical things to say about the SPLC. One-off instances of criticism in mainstream publications don't rate a mention, either, in and of themselves. If there is a pattern of specific criticism that is documented in multiple reliable non-primary sources, then that's something else again—but that would need to be well documented and then preferably integrated into the current structure of the article rather than given its own stand-alone section. Rivertorch (talk) 18:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree... just throwing a grenade over the wall ("there should be more criticism") is not actionable and isn't really aimed at improving the article. I find that that approach is more grounded in a personal ideology rather than an helpful improvement (and yes, I note the irony in the "neutrality" label for exactly the opposite circumstance). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:24, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of the SPLC from mainstream and left-leaning sources is already suggested in the Finances section. As I remember, certain editors succeeded in removing its poor charity ratings and lack of cooperation with the Better Business Bureau from that section, but at least a reader of the article gets the idea that its financial policies have been rather controversial. My main point was that FD's commment that there has been "little or no criticism of SPLC from mainstream sources" is simply wrong. That being said, a brief sampling of negative comments about the SPLC made by well known critics such as The Montgomery Advertiser, Ken Silverstein, Stephen Bright, (the late) Alexander Coburn, and others is probably in order. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

You find more criticism in the Journal of Religious & Theological Information:

The Center, and particularly its co-founder and legal strategist Morris Dees, are not without criticism. The major points of controversy are summarized including critique of their fundraising strategies and selection of issues

and also with Kevin Lamb: The Surreptitious Extremism of the Southern Poverty Law Center, p.253f.:

Underscoring their surveillance and monitoring activities, the SPLC vigorously promotes a society with unenforceable border controls, in essence, a nation with an undefined nationality and unlimited diversity; a nation which no longer distinguishes alien from citizen. The SPLC’s website features their quarterly Intelligence Report on “hate groups” — what it characterizes as the “racialist, patriotic, and anti-Semitic” fringe of the far right — and tracks various “hate crimes” from coast to coast. A “hate crime” by SPLC standards could be any ethnic slur that was uttered during a bar fight, or a college prank that some intoxicated undergraduates committed during a frat party, or the latest “noose”-displaying incident. In seeking to criminalize “hate speech” and shore up valuable connections with local, state, and federal agencies, the SPLC regularly conducts seminars and workshops on the “terrorist threat” of domestic “hate groups.” It briefs law enforcement agencies on a regular basis.

These are strong criticism from, as it seems non-partisan sources, concerning the centers' political alignment and financing, and it took me only ten seconds to find them. I therefore support the neutrality template, the article needs balancing. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

JRTI perhaps; a piece published in the Social Contract Press, an SPLC-listed hate group, certainly not. Again, most of these groups are going to complain about their designation, but we need reliable secondary sources in order to include it in another article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding those sources gives them undue weight -- how often is the Social Contract Press routinely cited by mainstream media, in government proceedings, or in academic press? SPLC publications are routinely cited as expert by the media, in court cases, and academic papers. Any criticism must be sufficiently weighty to merit inclusion; a fringe hate group publication crying foul for being called out as a hate group by the hate group experts is as light as a feather. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Correct. Rivertorch (talk) 21:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I've just come back online (I live in Australia) and see that my hand grenade has gone off. Yes, I believe "there should be more criticism" is a bit vague, and possibly POVish in its own way. But there had been a couple more neutrality sections on this page without the issue really being addressed, and another editor raised the point in the long discussion at Talk:Family Research Council‎. I guess I wanted this to be discussed here properly - if the consensus is for no criticism section (and it is only an essay that's been linked to on this point), then that's fine. Anyway, I found another source - The Jewish Press argues here that the SPLC has moved from being "an icon for Jewish values of racial tolerance and equality" to being anti-Jewish, and quotes David Horowitz saying "The SPLC is the most prominent and active leftwing smear site in America." StAnselm (talk) 21:55, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean the David Horowitz whose article says "Chip Berlet, writing for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), identified Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture as one of 17 "right-wing foundations and think tanks support efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable." " More sour grapes from those called out by the SPLC, sorry, not a neutral source. KillerChihuahua 22:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

What about newspaper article? StAnselm (talk) 22:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

What about what newspaper article? KillerChihuahua 23:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

If every criticism is excluded on the basis of coming from a "hate group" which is portrayed as merely retaliating, I am beginning to wonder on what Misplaced Pages guideline these exclusions are based. Where do they say that Misplaced Pages needs to adopt the designations of Southern Poverty Law Center as its own? Where do they say that organisations or people which return criticisms are no subjects worthy of coverage? Perhaps we should raise the lack of criticism at the neutrality board to bring on board more uninvolved users. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree - I think criticism from SPLC targets can legitimately be included in the article, and if "neutrality" rules out conservative opinion, then we have succumbed to a hopeless systemic bias. StAnselm (talk) 00:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

This newspaper article that I linked to above. StAnselm (talk) 00:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

St. Anselm -- I'm not sure your idea of dropping a "hand grenade" on this particular article was a good idea. To start, I have removed your addition to the article pending the resolution of this discussion. If you had checked the discussion page archives, you would have realized that the material you added had been the topic of a long and heated discussion -- the result being that there was NO CONSENSUS for adding the criticism generated by the FRC advertisement that the Christian Science Monitor article references. The particular issue was a hot item for a few weeks, but quickly disappeared. Among the reasons for not including the material was that it gave undue weight to the opinion of one group among over a thousand targeted groups.

Gun Powder Ma -- You ask "on what Misplaced Pages guideline" are the opinions of the designated hate groups excluded. The main answer can be found at Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources. By no stretch of the imagination can a group such as the FRC or the League of the South be considered a reliable source on the operations of a Watch Group such as the SPLC. Simply because the SPLC is recognized by both academics and news organizations as a reliable source about hate groups, does not mean that the hate groups therefore are reliable sources about the SPLC. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:51, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no credible rationale here for excluding notable criticism - that is to say, widely reported in mainstream media - from any notable person or group, regardless of status as a listed hate group. The standard is notability, period, and there is no exception for ad hominem disqualification. Belchfire-TALK 01:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion. However this is the issue that is under discussion and it appears at this point yours is the minority opinion. Before you start adding material that I just deleted back, you should respect Misplaced Pages:Consensus and make your arguments here. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 01:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The "hand grenade" phrase was not my own, and it was certainly not intended to be this. Obviously, though, the neutrality issue is not going away, and the tag needs to remain. I see now there was a very long discussion. Be that as it may, I wonder if we can get consensus now, at least on the CSM reference. I would argue that the FRC listing has received far an away the most coverage of all the listed groups, and the discussion at Talk:Family Research Council‎ has indicated that the conservative criticism of SPLC for this action is ongoing. Finally, I strongly disagree that criticism that originates with these groups in appropriate for inclusion - if it is reported in independent reliable sources, then it should be included - it is not undue weight to say that dozens of prominent politicians think that the SPLC got it wrong. StAnselm (talk) 01:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

By all means, see if you can obtain consensus. A far as the FRC and the politicians, the Monitor article is a little weak on details. For instance it claims that Boehner et al paid for the advertisement and, if you review the archive links, you will find that this is not true. You will also find that what the politicians signed off on in a reprinted petition does not go as far as the FRC does in its attacks on the SPLC. And as a matter of weight, you have the SPLC being criticized on ONE listing from over a 1000 on the hate list. The FRC is not even mentioned in the article. If you include the FRC criticism, then you need to include the details of why the SPLC decided they were a hate group in the first place. Why make this article about a single organization when the FRC article is a more appropriate place. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 01:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Are we reading the same article? "Tension erupted recently between the SPLC and a slew of Republicans, including House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio and Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota (who tops the SPLC's “militia enablers list”), who protested the SPLC’s listing of the conservative Family Research Council as a hate group." And it's not just one in a thousand here, the point of the article was that the number of listed hate groups has topped 1000, which raises questions about the broadness of the definition. StAnselm (talk) 01:31, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's the same article. Please tell me which other hate groups are referenced in the article other than the FRC and the League of the South (2 out of 1000 -- my error). While the supporters of these organizations might make overly broad generalizations, neither these critics or the article's author provide any factual basis to this. Absent actual facts, this article is an opinion piece about the opinions of the FRC and the League of the South. Correct me if I'm wrong -- what other examples of overly broad classifications are cited? The article does say:

While the SPLC's investigations and studies are used by some law enforcement agencies concerned about domestic terrorism, its overall work, its critics on the right say, has taken on an overtly political dimension by giving ideological cover for attacks primarily on white conservatives and by turning the word “patriot” into a euphemism.

The problem is that nowhere in the article is there any factual support for such a broad claim or even an indication that the article editor agrees with it.

You noted earlier, "I would argue that the FRC listing has received far an away the most coverage of all the listed groups, and the discussion at Talk:Family Research Council‎ has indicated that the conservative criticism of SPLC for this action is ongoing". In fact, what you will actually find is a flurry of activity generated by a paid advertisement (when the CSM article was written) and a flurry now because of the shooting. The FRC created an artificial situation with its advertisement and is now taking advantage of a shooting for publicity -- wikipedia shouldn't be enlisted in its mission. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 01:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite astounded by this approach. On the one hand, you call the article an opinion piece, on the other hand you note that the article's writer refuses to say whether he agrees with the critics. You said "nowhere in the article is there any factual support for such a broad claim" - does it need factual support? The claim is, of course, that this is what the critics say. Are you doubting that this is what the critics say? It sounds like you just don't like what is said in the article, but that's not the point. It is, after all, a reliable source. StAnselm (talk) 06:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, so the argument here is that once a group is put on the hate list, its criticism of SPLC is excluded, even when the criticism is widely published in national media? That argument fails our core policies, not to mention basic common sense. Belchfire-TALK 01:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

No. The argument is that groups with no credentials that suggest they qualify as a reliable source (as defined by wikipedia) are not a proper source for any article other than an article about themselves. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. Belchfire- TALK 02:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Not "nonsesne"; policy. KillerChihuahua 05:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with my sources, and I'm pretty sure you know that. Why don't you tell us the real reason for reverting 4 other editors? Belchfire-TALK 05:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The shooting controversy will not doubt die down soon, but the FRC's recent criticism has been published in all the mainstream news sources. StAnselm (talk) 01:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

A few days of notability do not justify the material being added to this article. Just as the earlier publicity had a short life span, so will this. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

If the standard of notability here is "a few days", I could easily reduce this article to a stub. What's your next argument? Belchfire-TALK 02:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The Edit War is On

It appears that some folks aren't content with discussing and reaching consensus. Despite the ongoing discussion, users LuckyWikipedian and Carolmooredc have decided to bypass the discussions and simply add contested material. Not much point in further discussion until someone restores the status quo to the point where the NPOV tag was added. I did so once, but don't intend to keep it up. It looks like the side with the best use of reverts w/o violating 3RR "wins". Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

When you come up with a better reason not to add notable, relevant, reliably sourced material, you will probably discover that editors are more willing to listen. So far, I've seen no such reasons in this discussion. Indeed, what I've have seen so far seems to amount to "we don't like it". Your last argument, that "groups with no credentials that suggest they qualify as a reliable source" is a reason to exclude notable content, fails on its face. Likewise the argument that groups labeled as a hate group by their political opponents are auto-magically disqualified from having a voice. Indeed, political organizations that have been labeled hate groups are uniquely qualified to talk about what's wrong with the SPLC's methods, and since their criticisms have found a voice in national media in connection with a notable event, those criticisms deserve a voice here, in the interest of NPOV. Belchfire-TALK 03:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

If you're sincere about reaching an actual consensus, then restore the previous version of the article. Otherwise, discussion really isn't worth much. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a clear consensus either way. I see roughly an even split - between editors on one side, who say they are against a criticism section on general principles (even though I know full well they have an entirely different view when it comes to other articles), and editors who think that criticism generated from a notable event is worth including. Moreover, our BRD policy pretty much negates any notion that pre-clearance from other editors is needed before adding content. (Take note: "discuss" is the final stage in that cycle, not the first.) Belchfire-TALK 03:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that the policy is "BRD", not "BRBD". It does not require consensus to add content; it does require discussion and consensus before re-adding content which has been challenged. Fat&Happy (talk) 03:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but unfortunately it's a policy, not an essay an essay, not a policy. (An essay that has wide acceptance, but an essay nonetheless.) While we're at it, maybe we can find some quotes from aggrieved KKK members and swastika-brandishing neo-Nazis whining about being targeted by the SPLC. But no . . . that would be beyond the pale. We'll let the "respectable" hate groups hide behind their surface civility and give them free bandwidth to bitch and moan about those who call them on their dirty deeds. Okay, whatever. Rant over. Those who choose to bypass consensus are, in fact, violating policy. I'm not going to fire a single shot in this edit war, but I will cheerfully ask for full protection if the back and forth edits continue. Rivertorch (talk) 05:53, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the best place to comment but here goes. The "criticism" section is pretty sloppy. That it is so bias makes me not believe any of it yet there must be some notable criticism of the group besides that they are master fundraisers. I don't know what should stay or go but I suggest anyone trying to make the point that there is criticism would do well to only include those critics who are reputable and published in good sources. Of course the groups labelled hate groups mostly despise the SPLC, this is not surprising. But show me some well thought out criticism and maybe don't segregate it in one pointedly biased section. OK, off my soapbox of sanity! Cluetrain WooWOO! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cluetrainwoowoo (talk • contribs) 05:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:BOLD is a policy. Can you point me towards a policy that says I need permission to add content? I get that some editors aren't going to dig it, but if I'm adding well-sourced, relevant, notable, encyclopedic content, I'm not doing a single thing wrong. OTOH, falsely accusing other editors of tendentiously adding poorly sourced content as a rationale for reverting , does violate policy. A number of them, in fact. And I've yet to approach the apparent ownership issues that I'm seeing on this Talk page. Belchfire-TALK 06:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

In any case, I'm not sure we can revert to the previous consensus position when the record shows that there was, in fact, no consensus regarding a criticism section. StAnselm (talk) 06:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Belchfire, you seem to be swinging around a large chip on your shoulder in opposition to anyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm no fan of SPLC but your tactics are making all the critics look nonsensical. The content you're adding is poorly presented making it pretty worthless. Maybe if you played nice with others you'd see notable criticism actually presented in a way that didn't discredit your efforts. I might not agree with the political stances of everyone else here but you seem to be the bull(y) in the china shop daring anyone to question you. Just maybe they have a point that better writing would make your case more meaningful. Cluetrain Woowoo! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cluetrainwoowoo (talk • contribs) 06:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

StAnselm, I think it's pretty safe to say that there is now, in fact, a consensus in favor of having a Criticism section. There isn't any serious question about that. Belchfire-TALK 06:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Unless those of us who have indicated there shouldn't a criticism section somehow aren't to be taken seriousy, there is indeed serious question about that. In fact, I see no indication of consensus for such a section. Rivertorch (talk) 06:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll address your earlier comment a little more fully, Rivertorch. The opposition to having criticism based merely on a listed organization's complaints is probably valid. I've been careful to avoid anything along those lines. Carol M. Swain's criticism deserves to be taken seriously, on account of her creds. FRC's criticism deserves to be taken seriously, because of its notability. Attempting to revert those things because they were supposedly "poorly sourced" is simply spurious. Any consensus that was categorically against a Criticism section prior to yesterday is no longer built on solid ground, because the weather has changed. I'm not against consensus-building at all, and I am quite willing to listen to reason, but those in opposition need to come up with actual valid objections if they expect to be taken seriously. Belchfire-TALK 06:51, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem with a criticism section in -any- article is that it begs for poor quality writing. Instead -notable- criticism should be woven into the prose like when the groups' finances are discussed, so are the notable criticisms that their reserves are excessive to some, and others find their fundraising operations over-the-top. In this way you don't beat the point that a bunch of negative things have been said, you show how the organization operates and how some of the aspects of what they are have been criticized. It's a matter of good writing and reporting. That article also shouldn't be addled with a section of positive proclamation statements either. See Misplaced Pages:Criticism. Cluetrainwoowoo (talk) 09:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

A point well-made, Cluetrain. WP:STRUCTURE is also relevant. Alfietucker (talk) 10:15, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Cluetrain's argument is simply invalid. Purportedly poor writing is simply not a rationale to exclude content, ever. Furthermore, not only is WP:CRITICISM just an essay, but it doesn't argue against a Criticism section in any meaningful way - it mostly talks about how to build one. Conversely, see WP:PERFECTION and WP:PRESERVE, which are policies. WP:STRUCTURE is policy, but IMO doesn't really work in this instance and IMO isn't the way to include the content currently being warred against by those trying to keep relevant encyclopedic content out of this article. The real issue we have here is WP:OOA. Belchfire-TALK 16:10, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't seem very persuasive, since the issue here is whether we need to give criticism its own section. Basically, no, we don't, and it would be a bad idea to do so. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 16:21, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

@Belchfire: I'm not sure whether you understood the point Cluetrain was making, but it seems you didn't check what WP:CRITICISM has to say about creating a Criticism subsection, significantly titled Avoid sections and articles focusing on "criticisms" or "controversies". Hence why I suggested also referring to the policy WP:STRUCTURE, the main paragraph of which outlines the potential pitfalls of making such a separate Criticism section, and finishes with the recommendation "Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other." Alfietucker (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Drive-by comment

There are many absurd arguments used by those opposed to criticism of the organisation appearing in the article, including:

• If the critic is on the "hate list",
  1. The criticism is to be expected, and hence not notable.
  2. The criticism is not notable because it's from a hate group.

  1. 1 has some small merit, although it would need to be determined whether the criticsm came before or after the critic was on the hate list. (Yes, I am implying that SPLC would call a group a "hate group" because the group criticised SPLC.) It's still notable if reported in the press.
  2. 2 premuses the SPLC is "expert", and that we are permitted (in Misplaced Pages's voice) to say that an organization is a "hate group" because SPLC says it is. Even if SPLC is expert, we still could not use their opinion in a BLP context, which would apply in many of the cases.

• Only a few organizations protest their listing; or only a few organizations have their protests reported in the press.

  Both false. For each type of protests, only a few organizations make that type of protest, but it would be at least "several" organizations whose protests have been noted in the press, in sufficient directness and detail that the protests, themselves, would meet WP:GNG. (This does not require the protesting organisation to be "reliable", as long as the protest is reported in WP:RS.) The related claim that only "several" of the 1000+ organisations which have been declared "hate groups" by SPLC have protested also should have little weight.

The argument that there should not be a criticism section may hold up, but many more of the individual criticisms should be in the article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know of any hate groups that cheerfully admit to being hate groups, so I'm sure we could find any number of them insisting that they're merely pro-family, pro-American or pro-white. I don't see how this is notable, though. Consider how Ku Klux Klan prominently mentions its hate group status but offers no rebuttal, criticism or controversy. And, yes, SPLC is considered an expert by the FBI. In short, I don't find your drive-by analysis to be valid. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 15:08, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

So now, you're stalking me., and have not given any counter-arguments. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:20, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I had this page watchlisted before you made your comments; it relates to the whole CfA/FRC thing that you know I'm active on. Given this, your accusation is a bit weird and definitely a violation of WP:AGF.

I'm not sure what you think a counter-argument should look like. I would like to imagine that my statements constituted such a thing. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 15:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

You need to establish that an opinion is notable before it should be included, per WP:WEIGHT. Law enforcement, government, the media and academics do not invite members of hate groups to explain the SPLC. TFD (talk) 15:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

(to Still-24-45-42-125)You have a vivid imagination. I've had the page watchlisted for some time, also, and the talk page (at least) is presently showing all of the arguments I've commented on. In context, they look more absurd than I've portrayed them.

(to TFD) True, to some extent. That an opinion is noted by reliable sources, though, is what makes it "notable". The media does not invite members of "hate groups" to explain the SPLC (although someone should be invited to explain them); it reports on comments made by "hate groups" about the SPLC. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

You repeatedly talk about "notability" and even provided this link. The problem is that notability is not a factor to be considered in the CONTENT of the article. If you had read the very next section under the one you linked (WP:NNC), you would have read the following:

The criteria applied to article content are not the same as those applied to article creation. The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content (with the exception that some lists restrict inclusion to notable items or people). Content coverage within a given article or list is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies

The issue is the WEIGHT that should be given to the opinions of a group, the FRC, that has no established reputation as a reliable source on the subject of Watch Dog groups. By your logic, since many reliable sources mention the beliefs of Holocaust Deniers, their opinions should be given prominent play in any wikipedia articles relating to the Holocaust. Certainly Holocaust Deniers "deserve" their own article (and have received one) because of their notability, but this does not mean that their opinion is worth citing elsewhere. The FRC also has its own article and that is the place for its opinions. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

North Shoreman makes a valid point and helpfully points us to a policy that argues forcefully for inclusion of the FRC criticism: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint." This seems to state pretty clearly that a single paragraph of information about what FRC said following a major news event is certainly not out of order. Belchfire-TALK 16:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll bite. I'm repeating the section you quoted with added emphasis that I'll discuss: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint." The question is whether the FRC's opinion is "significant". The material you added directly related the SPLC and violence.

The obvious first question is whether any source, reliable or otherwise, prior to a few days ago ever made that connection. Based on everything that I have seen, the answer is no. The next question is does any reliable source hold that opinion today? Again, the answer is no -- reporting something is not the same as agreeing to something. A third question is a factual one -- is there any actual evidence that the shooter was actually motivated by the SPLC? I haven't seen it.

This leads us to the issue of Recentism -- not a policy or guideline but certainly an article that must be considered in determining the SIGNIFICANCE of the FRC claims. In the history of the discussion of hate groups (15 or 20 years), do the news articles that covered the sensational events give the FRC's opinion lasting significance? In analyzing the news reports and understanding how the press covers such acts of violence, they are going to report ANYTHING that comes out of the mouth of affected parties, including Tony Perkins. This doesn't mean that after a few news cycles the issue will disappear from reliable sources and retreat to right wing blogs and FRC publicity statements. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:21, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Your first observation is simply wrong: FRC's listing was highly controversial, and the controversy received significant press coverage at the time, back in 2010. Given the 2 year time frame, claims of recentism are defeated outright. What's your next argument? Belchfire-TALK 18:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The interest in the FRC was generated by a paid advertisement -- the coverage was largely of the advertisement. The interest of reliable sources (as opposed to right wing blogs and FRC publicity) very quickly died. The material you added recently was entirely about a link between the SPLC and violence -- a totally new charge lacking SIGNIFICANCE -- a topic you totally failed to address. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:44, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Now you're simply grasping at straws. There are paid advertisements, placed by various interest groups, in major newspapers by every single day, and most don't get any press coverage at all. This one did, and that makes it significant and notable. The link between SPLC and violence was similarly established by the RSs that covered the story. No coverage, no significance. What's your next argument? Belchfire-TALK 18:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Hey, don't give the North Shoreman too much credit here. His analogy invites us to think of the FRC as Holocaust Deniers and the SPLC as the Keepers of Truth. Our article is not about a concrete historical reality and whether folks who deny that it happened should get a say in it. It's about an organization that makes its living by getting people worry about "hate groups," and the question here is whether adequately sourced news and controversy about its "hate group" designations should get some play in our article. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:13, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

"Concrete historical reality"? Please. The FRC's claim that the shooter was motivated by the SPLC is not supported by anything factual. There is no evidence that I've seen that indicates why he did what he did -- we can reasonably assume that he had something against gay bashers in general and Chick-Fil-A in particular, but we have no evidence at all that he was driven by SPLC writngs. There are quite a few LGBT blogs out there, as well as documented cases of violence against gay people (not to mention the mainstream coverage of Chick-Fil-A) -- there is nothing "real" about blaming the SPLC. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Uhhr . . . I assume that you can read (??). Then reread what I said. The "historical reality" I referred to is clearly the Holocaust. My point was that keeping Holocaust deniers out of the article on the Holocaust is NOT analogous to keeping adequately sourced criticisms of the SPLC's "hate group" designations out of the article on the SPLC. Savvy? Badmintonhist (talk) 18:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this argument an attempt at humor? Why does the SPLC have a hate group list in the first place? You can pretend to ignore the obvious boomerang, but that won't make it go away. Nobody, not even FRC is saying SPLC is directly responsible (indeed, Tony Perkins was careful to point out that the shooter is responsible for his own actions). What's being said is that SPLC created the climate that encouraged the man's resorting to violence. You know, the way a hate group does. If don't find the significance of this self-evident, I am clearly wasting my time trying to reason with you. Belchfire-TALK 18:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and it's Perkins' claim that is so obviously nonsensical. We should report it -- let him hang himself with his own idiocy -- but there's not a lick of evidence that the SPLC is responsible for a hate group being hated. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 19:29, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's nonsensical to assert that SPLC calling groups "hate groups" is not likely to incite violence against them, whether or not it's SPLC's intent. (I don't think anyone said that SPLC is necessarily reponsible for (what they call) "hate groups" being hated, although that is their intent.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

That's like saying that, if not for the SPLC calling the KKK a hate group, nobody would hate them for being bigots. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say that, exactly. However, as for my second comment on SPLC's intent in publishing the "hate group" list; if it's not their intent that the groups on the list be hated, then what could the intent possibly be? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The likely alternative intent is that SPLC is making a public listing of organizations which spread hatred against certain sections of a community, whether for being black or LGBT. FRC, for instance, was listed by SPLC for this (among other published statements): “omosexuality gave us Adolph Hitler, and homosexuals in the military gave us the Brown Shirts, the Nazi war machine and 6 million dead Jews.” If it was not FRC's intent that this description of homosexuals should result in LGBT members of the community being hated, then what could the intent possibly be? Alfietucker (talk) 21:28, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't disagree with Alfie. The way I would have put it is that, by designating them as a hate group, the general public would be alerted as to their nature and would react appropriately by shunning those who support it. Consider the CfA/FRC fiasco for evidence. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, in a note about the difference between notability and weight; if a dispute between two organizations would meet WP:GNG, it should be mentioned in articles (or subarticles of) both organizations. That goes without saying, even if the mention were merely a "See also". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

If it goes without saying... StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It wouldn't need to be said if it weren't being denied. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:10, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think their motives are more geared toward creating brisk company business than toward inciting violence. Had the SPLC not created new villains after the Klan and similar groups had become moribund (and they were already pretty moribund by the time that Dees began suing them) the SPLC coffers would not currently register at between $200,000,000 and 300,000,000.Badmintonhist (talk) 21:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow. Just wow. It has nothing to do with the existence of hate groups. It's all an evil liberal conspiracy, right? There is nothing civil I can say further about this. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say word one about a liberal conspiracy. On the contrary, the SPLC is really just one "liberal"'s special creation: Morris Dees. There are a number of genuine liberals and lefties who have attacked it over the years, some very bitterly, as a project for Dees's greater glorification and wealth. Read Alexander Cockburn, Ken Silverman, and Stephen Bright on Mr. Dees. And I am not merely blowing "forum smoke" here. The basic criticism of the SPLC's finances is not just boring green eyeshade stuff, it has to do with the very soul of the organization. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Why do you consider the opinions of these "lefties" to deserve weight in the article? If their opinions are that important do you plan to add them to articles on conservative subjects? Why not? It seems to me you are just looking for sources of criticism and these are the best you could find, rather than looking at mainstream sources about the SPLC and reflecting what they say. TFD (talk) 04:43, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, consensus exists that these "liberals and lefties" deserve (at least some) weight in the article because they are already in the article and have been for quite some time. I suggested including a specific quotation from Silverstein (whom I incorrectly called "Silverman" above) or Bright or the late Alexander Cockburn to better demonstrate the nature of their critique of Dees's outfit. Such quotes were in the article at one time but were removed. As for including their opinions on "conservative subjects," from what I've observed in Misplaced Pages, articles on prominent and controversial conservative subjects already contain a generous amount of criticism from the left. One of the things that makes their criticism of the SPLC interesting is that they are probably just the kinds of people that the SPLC would like to have had on its side. As for your suggestion that the sources I've mentioned are not mainstream, Silverstein writes regularly for Harper's, Bright has taught at Harvard and Yale and a host of other universities while heading his own civil rights organization, and Cockburn wrote regularly for theThe Nation. We also know, of course, that the SPLC has been criticized by its major area newspaper the Montgomery Advertiser, and has received low ratings at times from various business and non-profit monitoring agencies. Let readers to decide whether or not such critics are collectively "mainstrem." Badmintonhist (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT requires that we present significant views proportionately, not that we balance views of left and right wing writers. Even if we did, we would need to use opinions representative of the left and right, rather than cherry pick opinions by people who happen to be left or right. The way to determine the weight of various views is to look at sources that explain the weight. AFAIK the criticisms listed have not been reported anywhere and are therefore not significant. I hold the same standard to conservative articles as well. BTW you and a few other editors seem to confuse the terms liberal and left-wing. Cockburn comes out of the Stalinist tradition, which is anti-liberal. From a Stalinist point of view, groups such as the SPLC are system supportive, and therefore no different from the establishment. Cockburn of course criticizes them for working with the FBI, the enforcement agency of the capitalist state. A good Communist of course would never collaborate with the ruling class. But why would we include criticism of the SPLC that faults them for not being left-wing? TFD (talk) 17:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

We're rather getting into "forum" territory here but at least its interesting. I don't see any evidence that Cockburn considered himself a Stalinist, or that he believed that he came out of the "Stalinist tradition". His Wiki bio certainly doesn't say this (admittedly The Nation was once pro-Stalin but that was many, many years ago). More importantly and pertinently, the basic complaints of Cockburn, Silverstein, and Bright against the SPLC are pretty much identical. They all believe that it exaggerates extremist (usually right-wing) dangers to the republic in order raise vast amounts of funds with which it provides handsome salaries for a few, HOARDS MUCH, and pursues largely showy but shallow political ends with the rest.Badmintonhist (talk) 18:29, 18 August 2012 (UTC) PS: The middle parts of that critique are quite like what non-ideological critics of the SPLC such as the Montgomery Advertiser and the charity raters have also said.Badmintonhist (talk) 18:37, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Oh! And BTW I didn't confuse the terms liberal and left-wing. That's why I didn't just say "liberals," I said "liberals and lefties."

(out) Cockburn says that the KKK is a "depleted troupe.... here isn’t a public school in any county in the USA that doesn’t represent a menace to blacks a thousand times more potent than that offered by the KKK...." The real hate groups in America are "big banks", ICE, the criminal justice system and anti-union employers. If we report Cockburn's views, then we should present them in their entirety. And you still have to explain why we include Cockburn's opinions in an article about SPLC, but not in articles about his usual targets. BTW I can find only opinion pieces about Cockburn and his political odyssey. But the letter from Howard Fast and Cockburn seems to show that he showed some sympathy to Brezhnev. Mind you all that matters is whether his opinions on the SPLC are significant. TFD (talk) 21:13, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

NPOV needed

How is SPLC described as a civil rights group when its a radical left wing group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.95.129.245 (talk) 02:45, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you know what the SPLC does on a daily basis? – ツ Teammm 02:49, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be some difference of opinion about that, Teammm. But there is a plausible compromise position available: SPLC is a radical left-wing civil rights group. Belchfire-TALK 02:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

By what criteria and source do you label it a "radical left-wing" group? – ツ Teammm 03:32, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources for your assertions, Belchfire. If you can. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 03:34, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Citation needed. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:35, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

No, no citation is needed. I have no intention of adding anything remotely similar to the article, and this isn't a discussion forum anyway. Besides, even if I brought you a direct quote from the mouth of Jesus himself none of you would accept it. Sufficeth to say for now that the way this article is jealously guarded tells us all we need to know about SPLC's political orientation. Cheers. Belchfire-TALK 03:46, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Jesus would pass WP:RS... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 14:38, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

No, don't hide this. Let it remain as an example of just how reasonable and impartial Belchfire is. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Moving forward

Now that the article is protected and the edit warring has stopped, may I suggest that anyone who is significantly dissatisfied with the current version make a very specific proposal for changing it? It's just possible that if we avoid tangential discussions we can make a stab at determining where consensus lies. If we can't do that with the current cast of characters, I wonder if someone would like to open an RfC and throw open the theater doors. Either way, we need to get it sorted. The article has been pretty stable for a long time, and just because the SPLC is in the news doesn't mean it should become a free-for-all. Rivertorch (talk) 10:29, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I strongly agree with your statement, especially the last, which I believe was the cause of this "politicized uproar". – ツ Teammm 13:00, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

The "politicized uproar" is ample cause to change the article and there is no such thing as a "stable article". See WP:CCC. Belchfire-TALK 19:02, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Belchfire, the term "stable article" has been widely used on Misplaced Pages for many years (see Misplaced Pages:Featured article criteria and Misplaced Pages:Good article criteria); it has to do with edit warring. And no, a recent, highly politicized news event whose relation to the subject is peripheral is never "ample cause" for hastily, repeatedly making significant changes to a stable article when there is not clear consensus to do so. It's fine to be bold once, but if the change proves contentious, then the only acceptable path forward is focused discussion. Speaking of which, would you care to outline your proposed change(s) here? I find it's sometimes helpful to place the disputed text on the talk page, since it's easier to scroll up and down than to switch back and forth between tabbed diffs. Rivertorch (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

You're right, the term "stable article" is often used (abused, actually) by people trying to fend off edits they don't like. It's considered a symptom of article ownership. Belchfire-TALK 20:31, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Needless to say, you are free to suggest deprecating the term "stable" (the FA and GA talk pages seem like appropriate places to propose that, or the Village Pump is thataway), but right now I'd really like to stay focused on proposed changes for this article. Rivertorch (talk) 20:42, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Ditto. Long-term stability is a sign of a silent consensus, so it cannot be ignored, according to policy. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:44, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:CCC. What's your next argument? Belchfire-TALK 20:51, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Snipe snipe snipe. Come on. Can we please concentrate on improving this article? Rivertorch (talk) 20:56, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Pointing out fallacious arguments isn't sniping, is it? Make better arguments. Belchfire-TALK 21:04, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

The onus is on you—the editor who wants to add the content—to make a good argument for inclusion. I, for one, am all ears (or I will be again in a few hours). Rivertorch (talk) 21:29, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I've made a conclusive argument for inclusion. I've got little more than piffle and WP:IDONTLIKEIT back from those who are opposed. If there are good arguments that don't amount to "This article is fine the way it is, leave it alone," I'm all ears. Belchfire-TALK 21:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

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