Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:28, 20 August 2012

Deletion review for Moral and national education

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Moral and national education. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review.

Talkback template

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/WHJG-LP‎

Hey Dennis, the nominator of the above linked AfD has said he won't object to an early close of the AfD, so since we have an almost SNOW keep consensus (the nominator is the lone "Delete"), could you early close the AfD, please? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• He states he isn't withdrawing his nom, might be a bit premature to close as snow, even though the outcome is clearly going to be to "keep". I would recommend just letting it run or letting a few more keeps, to be consistent with the idea that AfD is a discussion, not just a vote. This is just a procedural opinion and again, I think we both know what the outcome will be but it won't hurt it running a couple of days. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Okie Dokie, when he said he wouldn't object, I thought "why wait?", but I don't mind waiting. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Hey Dennis, been 5 days on this AfD and we have added another delete !vote, but the person who posted that !vote has stopped communicating on the AfD, so I am unsure what to think on that one. No comments have been made in more than 24 hours, can this go to an early close? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
      • If you do close the AfD early, I have posted a note at the bottom of the page requesting IRWolfie's !vote be struck for stubbornly and blindly disregarding established solid consensus. I have proven it, backed it up with sub-sections of WP:N and part of WP:OUTCOMES and he continues to disregard it. Obviously not being constructive. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
        • This is why I don't like closing early, as other viewpoints get aired out. I wouldn't worry so much about him disagreeing, he is actually a good guy, even if I disagree with him on this one. My understanding is that all tv stations and radio stations that are govt. licensed are considered automatically notable. Like I said before, the outcome is already certain, and now closing it early is certainly not going to happen, but it isn't a big deal. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• You may wish to have another read of the AfD (and here: User_talk:IRWolfie-#Poor_Man.27s_Talk_Back); the attention of an uninvolved admin would be welcome. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I was referring more to Neutralhomer's lack of assuming good faith and the number of accusations he has made about me (about a rather unimportant AfD), rather than the content discussion. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

D'oh. (no pun intended) That kind of discussion serves no purpose on a talk page anyway, if an RfC is needed, then someone should start one, but hammering on a talk page is fruitless, regardless of which side of the debate you are on. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Request for Admin assistance

I find myself forced to request Admin assistance (whether from yourself or from a colleague). Br'er Rabbit has posted content that I find deeply offensive, as well as being completely unfounded. The offensive material was framed in a highly personal idiolect which I was blindly expected to understand. I requested him to remove the offending remarks, including a completely unfounded accusation of trolling (I cannot recall any interaction with this user outside the Georg Solti infobox dispute). Since my requests remained unanswered, I decided a sensible course of action would be to remove the most offensive and upsetting parts myself, including a serious allegation of "trolling" , as well as other generally offensive content and accusation of "shite-stirring" , and allusion to "wankery", "trolling" and "badgering", etc. . Sadly, my quiet removal of the offending remarks was almost immediately undone . I then posted a polite but firm warning on Br'er Rabbit's talk page, explaining that I take this matter very seriously (Warning regarding personal attacks and other offensive content), which was greeted by the accusation "You are simply being disruptive."

I wanted to explain the context, but in this precise moment I'm so am so angry and hurt by the entire situation that I can't see straight and m temporarily withdrawing from Misplaced Pages. —MistyMORN 17:20, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I looked into this as an uninvolved and impartial observer and I can't find anything that would require admin assistance or intervention. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, "Neutral"", but I feel sorry for Misplaced Pages and its working environment. Personally, I consider accusation of "trolling" to be a serious personal attack. The other content of the diffs was clearly offensive.

FYI, I found your snap judgement regarding a recently retired contributor who was the prime mover of 16 FA and 9 GA (a tally which modestly doesn't include FA/GA where his copyediting was instrumental) to be painfully insensitive and far from impartial.

Anyway, I certainly didn't come to Misplaced Pages for the banter. —MistyMORN 11:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a rude place sometimes, much more so that I prefer, although I've developed a thick skin and become tolerant of a degree of it in otherwise productive conversations, simply because the act of correcting it can cause more drama than ignoring it sometimes. Being an admin, I have people call me all kinds of lovely things, but it genuinely rolls off my back. It does bother me to see others get called trolls or worse, but there is only so much that can be done. I see BR is having a discussion on his talk page with someone else, who is also addressing the issue. I can't insta-block over incivility like this, as that causes more drama and always explodes into controversy and yet more name calling. It is often a no win scenario, and everyone walks away with some mud on them. That is part of the challenge of WP:WEP, trying to find constructive solutions. Sometimes there is no good solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Dennis. That's a good reply in my book. —MistyMORN 11:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

IRWolfie- (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

VQuakr (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

• Replied there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi

Hi Dennis. Could you take a look at my latest comment on Bbb23's talk page. There seems to be some sock-peppery going on here. Kurdo777 (talk) 23:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Block question

I blocked User:Mertface for 24 hours. I have now changed the block so he cannot edit his own Talk page. How do I "notice" that on his Talk page? I would think at a minimum he needs more instructions on how to appeal when he's blocked from his Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• After I use the regular block template in TW, I just make a note below saying "I've also removed your talk page access because ...." There isn't a template for this, since they don't need the links to unblock, since they can't edit. Normally, I dont take away talk page access unless they abuse the talk page, but there are some cases where it gets taken away instantly, but rare........ Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:16, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks. I removed Talk page access because they removed the block notice - twice. I warned them the first time, but they did it again, so ...--Bbb23 (talk) 01:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Another option is {{subst:User:Bwilkins/talkpagelocked|sig=}} I just learned, on IRC.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:35, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• I had already put a note on the user's Talk page, but I added Bwilkins's template because it has appeal instructions. Thank whomever told you on IRC (yeah, yeah).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is rarely used, but I've seen it used before.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Ah, and I notice the second block template under TW ->Warn ->Blocking ->{{uw-blocknotalk}} But that only works if you start out with talk page revoked (rare), and is a generic template. Maybe Bbb23 should ask the TW devs to add something like Jasper Deng's example at the bottom of the block options in Twinkle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:16, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• The template Jasper refers to is pretty startling (SO red). Also, it would be good if it appeared in this list. I haven't been using Twinkle for posting block notices. When I looked at it now, I only see one possibility - can I add more (didn't see anything obvious in preferences)?--Bbb23 (talk) 15:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

TW has a bunch of different block templates. Press that block button and they will pop up :p Don't feel bad, it took me two months to figure that out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see it. The block button is in the User drop-down, not in TW.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

TW ->Warn->Blocking Not the most intuitive place to put it, which is why it took me two months. The Blocking option is the last option in the first section of Warn. It is templates only, you still block from the other menu. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Stupid. I saw that before you told me, but I only saw one template and no arrow to drop down. This time I clicked in the box, and it dropped down. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I told you, I did the exact same thing. Major palmface. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:56, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Not that it will matter for a long time, but does Twinkle automatically update or do you need to install "admin mode"? Ryan Vesey 18:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Automatic. I've haven't updated Twinkle since it was called "Friendly". :) It is an externally controlled script. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Warren Benbow

Care to take a look, or pass it along? This page is currently being edited by the subject and there might be copyright concerns. I'd dig into it, but I'm a bit busy at work. Ryan Vesey 18:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• For now, I just put a COI tag on it. Will check later, I'm doing construction at the house, feel like someone beat me with a 2x4, long day. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I hope your house turns out well. Take some pictures and upload them to DIY. Ryan Vesey 01:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

***Actually, this is just a gazebo. A few years ago I did buy and completely gut a 3700 sq. ft. lake front home, replaced every wall, ceiling, floor, wire, pipe, all plumbing, cabinets, window and poured 110 yards of concrete and added a 24x36ft garage and a new boat ramp. THAT was a project. :) I still have that house, but I don't live there, I expected to sell it but the housing market went to hell, so it just sits empty. This is just a 18x20ft place to put the smoker and grill, but I'm doing all of it myself, and I'm not as young as I used to be. Pretty close to done, just need to install the wire screen and trim work, wire up all the lights and outlets, and dig a trench to lay the underground power line to the building. About three or four days work, but I'm working full time, so it will take a couple weeks to finish it up with everything else I have going on. I stay busy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• • • • Referring to a smoker and a grill as separate things, spoken like a real american. Wood or electric? And that house, how could you not live there? Ryan Vesey 02:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Propane, same as the grill. I added it to the Smoking (food) article some time back. It has a wood box at the bottom to let the wood smolder. Insanely good smoker. Think I paid just 100 bucks for it at Lowes a few years back, use it regularly. The propane makes the temperature very even. The grill is a standard grill, but looking to maybe build a custom job later. Again, I always have a project or two going on. :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

User:HeCameFromTheShadows

Did you see his talkpage? I requested speedy dlete as its only bent on attacking you. Not sure why its still around.Lihaas (talk) 23:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Also the talk page of the other sock admits hes been on here for years. Can we use that to check for sleepers (though he could have eft the country if its an IP search)Lihaas (talk) 23:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I find it more amusing than anything, but I'm not one to take ranting like that personal. It just rolls off like water on a ducks back. Anyone that matters knows better. You can ask another uninvolved admin to revoke his talk page access, but since he is trying to attack me, it wouldn't look proper for me to do that. Part of being an admin is having people attack you in these crass ways. Honestly, it is of no consequence to me. Oh, and they might want to indef the puppet master, User:FerrerFour while they are at it. Two weeks won't be enough here I fear. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:06, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Looks like everything worked out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:54, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Removing block notices/unblock requests

If a blocked editor retires like at User talk:Carthage44 do the block/unblock notices need to be restored? Ryan Vesey 01:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

If they are indef'ed, retiring is a bit, well, non-applicable. As long as the sockpuppet tag is on the user page, I wouldn't worry about it. They are just saying they aren't going to appeal the block. Which means they are going to leave, or just create a new sockpuppet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Re: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/SimonKnowsAll - What now?

I'm still pretty new. This is my first report of a suspected SOCK. Ironic because I was doing invites to the Teahouse. I look at a new user's talk and contribs to personalize my invites. I was surprised when I saw that the first activity was a !vote in an AfD. Usually it's the new user finding his or her first article up for deletion. When I looked at the AfD discussion, the Keep votes didn't make sense so I looked at others who supported Keep. The Investigation (case) to create or re-open format was logical although I chose to link to contribs rather than diffs; I judged that they told the story better. I was uncertain about requesting CheckUser so chose to let whichever clerk did the review to make that call.

I do have a few questions for you:

1. Do I need to do anything more? What?
2. Is it appropriate for me to check other articles created by User:SimonKnowsAll for obvious promotion? Or is that done automatically as a follow-up to the SPI?
3. What could I have done better to ease your work in SPI?

I'll watch here for answers. Thanks for your efforts and taking some time to answer my questions, DocTree (talk) 04:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• It is being further checked, but a bunch of socks are about to be perma-blocked. Usually, a single check is all that is needed, but there must be some technical reason DQ is doing some extra checks. Good find, we will mop up the rest after all is checked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Block review

Hello Dennis. Three days ago you asked me for an independent review of a block. Sorry for the delay in responding, which has been partly due to the fact that, for personal reason, I have had very little time available for editing Misplaced Pages in the last few days, and partly because, when I did manage to find time, I was thwarted by internet connection failure, apparently die to problems at my ISP. I have looked at the case, and I have now written a comment about it. I originally envisioned the comment as a message to post on the talk page of the blocked user, but I'm not sure whether that is the best thing to do with it, so I have put it at User:JamesBWatson/Sir Gawain McGarson Block review. It can be copied to elsewhere if that seems appropriate. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• It might be helpful to post that on his talk page, as I told him I would get another admin to consider unblocking his current account. Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate the effort. It was a pain to clerk that case at SPI, and I'm sure to review it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• I went ahead and just linked it over. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• Thanks for moving that over. I'm not shocked by your findings, but due to the complexity of the case, felt a review was required in the interest of fairness and completeness. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Alternate Acct info request

I seem to remember that User:RightCowLeftCoast is an alternate account, possibly of an Admin. How do I check something like that? I just need to verify my memory. Promise:No dust storm. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• User account "RightCowlLeftCoast" is not registered. is what that link says. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that. I have changed to the right name. Buster Seven Talk 15:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I looked for "what links here" and didn't find anything interesting. You could always just politely ask them. :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

To RfA or not to RfA....

Hi Dennis,

Have to say I'm very impressed with what you've achieved since you've become an Admin.

I don't know how this happened, but I seem to have been suckered into doing serious work on Misplaced Pages. I've been editing for years, contributing to AfDs over the past year, I've put up a few articles for GAN, and now I've got WP:ANI on my watchlist. I always thought I'd never want to be an admin on here for a few simple reasons :

• I'm an admin / developer (and a long standing and respected one, if I do say so myself) somewhere else and do all sorts of other things in my spare time
• I wouldn't be able to commit the time to properly deal with the cross-examination a RfA candidate faces
• I don't particularly fancy dealing with having to pull apart two people edit warring over some Middle-East related article and being threatened as a result.
• I'd feel "committed" to the place and be unable to lose interest and go elsewhere

Having said that, a few times over the last week I've found myself saying "I'd do that, but I haven't got the bit to do so". One was a request to empty the WP:RPP queue, another was an obvious case of vandalism that I was absolutely certain warranted an indef block (which indeed happened), another was somebody looking into why a CSD occurred. That makes me wonder if it is worth looking at an RfA in the long term.

I don't think I'd stand a good chance at RfA right now, as I'm relatively unknown and haven't got a proven track record at anything, which, looking through the pile of recent reviews seems to result in a lot of "Oppose - wouldn't know him from a hole in the ground". Then again, I haven't done anything worse than mild quarrels with people, which I tend to drop. I think it's certainly necessary getting some "street cred" (ie: spotting vandlism, good calls on AfDs, regular contributions to ANI) for at least a couple of months before making any serious decisions.

Of course, in a couple of months I might have lost interest. Who knows?

Any thoughts on the above? --Ritchie333 15:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Interesting, I see around 3000 edits is all from 12/2005 to now, but mainly in the last two months. Edit count for articles is only 22% , which is always a problem if it is lower than 40%. I think you might want to hang around and edit regularly for another 3 months, then get a formal review, which will put you another 3-6 months out. I agree that you would likely have a snowball's chance at RfA today, based solely on the statistics: you don't have enough of them, and article contribs are too low. But the more important issue is, is Misplaced Pages something you really want to do regularly, either as an admin or as an editor? Only you (and time) can tell that. Before you can convince others that you can be an asset with the bit, you have to convince yourself that it is something you want to do and it will benefit you in some way. I wouldn't worry about people knowing you, as your work will speak for itself. Focus on some article content, get those numbers up, try and see if consistently editing here on a month basis is right for you. You might find you enjoy that without the bit. I had 18,000 edits before seeking the bit, which is higher than most, but I was happy just editing for years. Most RfA candidates have at least 5k, and those with 10k have a better chance, as they have had the opportunity to learn and apply the policies here, which is the foundation of what being an admin is about. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:02, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the quick response, Dennis. What's basically driven me to think about this is instances like WP:ANI#Viktoria Bolonina where I've called out a bad CSD and been a bit annoyed I'm not on the same playing field as the other guys in the conversation, as they can make a judgement call on the deleted article, and I can only take guesses.

Actually, this is kind of what's driven me to finding out more about WP policies in the first place, as an internet forum I frequent fell foul of a possible questionable CSD some years back and most of the regulars now despise Misplaced Pages, so I've seen the collateral damage that probably goes unnoticed on here. I think that's what drives most of my recent motivation in this place.

Regarding the edit totals, most of the non-article ones are Articles for Creation reviews (which happen in the Misplaced Pages Talk namespace) and responses to them on my talk page, so I would say a lot of the non article edits are helping people. There tends to be quite a bit of a backlog, and it's not too much of a chore to explain WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV to newbies - it's kind of the "meat and potatoes" of Misplaced Pages, and I think it's quite hard for some newbies to "get it", but once they do, they can move on to greater things. Having said all of that, there's no point giving your opponents ammo if you don't need to, so I agree that working on the article space edits is a good plan. I have two GA reviews sitting in the pile (one's been there for 6 weeks), and I've got several more I want to have a crack at. Since I've spent time talking about FA reviews today in my attempts to bring the Pigsonthewing debate at ANI under control, I really should get one up to that status myself, first.

I certainly wasn't planning on putting in the RfA at least until next year, whatever the circumstances.

Anyway, thanks for your time - certainly something to think about. --Ritchie333 16:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. Learning policies is tricky, as the written word is less important than the intent (hence the need for WP:IAR to normalize). As for collateral damage, I started WP:WEP with the goal of finding ways to minimize the damage and prevent as much as possible. As far as working with newbies, that is as good a purpose as can be found at Misplaced Pages, and is part of the Editor Retention program as well. Stop by and look around, you may find several who share your ideas. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Would you consider

Hi Dennis. I notice above that you gave a very accurate review, and wondered if you might consider adding yourself to Misplaced Pages:Request an RfA nomination? I believe having as many friendly faces up there as possible, and if you're willing to offer the odd review (I think I've worked it out as about one a week), then it would be appreciated. Also, if there's anyone you've got your eye on for adminship, we are running low. Worm(talk) 16:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• I probably should do that. I give a loooong review about once every week or two now, usually email via their request. I have a few that will be ready in 6 months, but none today. I did nom two this summer who made it, Bbb23 and Berean Hunter, but agree that more are needed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• Added myself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

HarveyCarter

92.7.26.188 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is him back again. Do I need to open an SPI (you won't get much more information than you can see from the contribs yourself), or can I save time? More background on him available if needed..... His charm hasn't disappeared! 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 16:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• I just did a softblock for NPA, which is close enough for our purposes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks. I'll go to RFPP if he comes back, in case you're not around. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 16:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Sounds like a good idea, you can always point here if he starts in with attacks as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Since you're around according to my watchlist, semi-protection might be an idea due to 92.7.2.175 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Thanks. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Yeah, couldn't sleep. Protected Black and Tans. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• And he's trolling on the talk page now. Blocking would be the preferable option to semi-protecting that too, at present anyway? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• I've nabbed the IP under block evasion. I'm about to go out for a bit, if he comes back, protection might be the key, but I hesitate to block talk pages unless there is a clear and obvious need that can't be dealt with otherwise. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Yeah, that's why I suggested blocking rather than just asking for semi-protection. 92.7.8.86 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) sounds like a duck.... 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Blocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Just a note: I opened an SPI on Portugalpete (who was stalking ONiH too) and User:FergusM1970. Portugalpete could also be this guy - I've asked for sleepers to be checked--Cailil 15:02, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Unprotection of Defacto's talk

I've sent the issue to ANI. Toddst1 (talk) 20:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Impressive kahunas. Nicely done. After this fiasco I chose to let other(s) take action. Toddst1 (talk) 05:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Not a problem. I had already been researching the DeFacto case, so was familiar, and the geolocation and other evidence was pretty strong. I ended up blocking one more sock, and not blocking one that as accused as well. SPI blocks on behavior (which IS proper) is very tricky and not without risk, which may be why so few do it. That was a messed up situation. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:50, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, DeFacto is one of those editors where you're way better off going on behavioral evidence. If you think it's him, it probably is. If you didn't see it, the last episode would probably be interesting. I ended up arguing with an arbitrator about blocking some of his socks and was proven correct after some fur flew. It was pretty obvious that this slew of IPs was DeFacto to me, but I didn't want to make the rangeblock. Thanks again. Toddst1 (talk) 14:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin

On 16 August 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that places in the Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin inspired locations in the 1960s sitcom The Andy Griffith Show? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your help with the DeFacto SPI. I really appreciate you taking the extra time to go through the logs, especially after the CU declined to do so.

Best,

GaramondLethe 01:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• I understand why he refused. Looong SPIs are a huge pain to go through. We love having 6 good diffs and a single paragraph and do the digging ourselves, which is why TLDR comes into play on longer ones, which tend to get overlooked for a while. I try to take on some of the longer ones because it is hard sometimes for editors to be pithy in these reports, not knowing what all is needed, or not needed. I'm very confident in the outcome, however, and spent time over a couple of days going over the data. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

6 good diffs and a single paragraph: So it was written, so it will be done (as I expect DeFacto will be back around sooner rather than later). Thanks for the tip! GaramondLethe 02:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Congrats on the DYK and your other accomplishments!

Drmies (talk) 02:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks Drmies. I don't get as much time to work on articles as I used to, but trying to work on quality. This recent stub Zingbot 3000 needs work, but I think it can be made to pass since he was at Comic Con, etc. And he was on again last night. Yes, I'm a Big Brother fan, about the only TV I watch. Shameful.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

SPI Close

Hi Dennis, Close Can I ask what is the conclusion - NB this diff? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• A combination of stale and WP:TLDR led to the conclusion that a a link wasn't going to be made. There is no prejudice to reopen the case if they come back, but keeping it short with a few diffs will make it much more likely for someone to take on the case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I can well understand Misplaced Pages:Too long; didn't read, but the several admins who had participated in the bottom section of the SPI had already, as I read it, concluded that the IPs were user Kauffner even without this diff being spotted and were at the point of discussing where to take the issue next for remedy. At the least some advice input on that final question might be helpful - if closer can do that. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm confused as to why the admins didn't block if they knew. SPI is not required, it is just a place for non-admins to take it, or admins who aren't sure. Let me look at it in a bit, I'm swamped working, just stopped in to check a couple things. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
      • As I said, that's "as I read it", I am not an admin and have already formed my own view so am not unbiased. Thanks for taking the extra time, appreciated either way. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Gtwfan52

This editor is a fine example of someone that works with new editors in a special, nurturing way. It is really refreshing to see. I will work toward creating a dialogue with him and hopefully he will be willing to share some of his wisdom @ WP:WER. I'm sure a word or two of support from you will make his day. BTW......Frank is one of the best BB players in a long while. He may not win (nebbish Ian may be a surprise), but he is fun to watch.```Buster Seven Talk 13:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC) Just a thought as I was walking out the door.....WE, as a whole, spend SOOOOOO much time with problem edits and editors and the situations and discussions surrounding them that go on fdor days and weeks. So much wasted effort...and especially wasted time. This User, Gfan, is doing it right. He is teaching the new breed. Its the challenge of seeing an example of how it could be. Buster Seven Talk.

• Excellent find! I will catch up with him in a bit. And yes, Frank is as good a BB player as I've seen in a while. I'm also hoping Daniel goes far, only because she is nice to look at. (and she has proven herself to be a good/manipulative player as well.) :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:34, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
• You know what, we need a Barnstar for WEP, in mainspace. A star with the WP:WEP logo over it, standard template, "The Editor Retention Barnstar", for helping making Misplaced Pages a more enjoyable place for all editors. That would cover a great many situations, including this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

My barnstar construction abilities are limited to "sidewalk Foreman> I'll run it past User:amadscientist and see what he comes up with. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• • • • My version of photoshop won't handle svgs, so I just custom built a barnstar for him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:59, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

SPI questions

If you have a moment to help out here, please do. Note that the issue of sock puppetry for certain accounts related to Turkey and Turkic peoples is being discussed on various editors' Talk pages.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

I am writing to tell you both thanks for the compliment and the barnstar. I am sending this exact same note to both Buster7 and Dennis Brown. After much soul searching and weighing of time commitments, I have decided to go ahead and help out at WP:WER. Ok, the truth: My wife said I could! I would not be here at all except for this particular project and one of its efforts, The Teahouse. The encouragement and instruction I got there got me through the difficult early times. Also, much credit goes to Bmusician, who graciously adopted me. You singled out some of my best efforts, but you should know that I have had some moments where I have been not so nice too. I had an especially ugly incident at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard that I thought for sure was going to get me sanctioned, but I just let it drop and that was the end of it. I am hoping through my involvement with this project, I can learn how to get answers to questions like the one that took me there.

So, what do I do now? Gtwfan52 (talk) 23:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• You do what brings you joy. You help others, you can hang out and read a bit at WP:WER from time to time, you just do what comes natural. It should be fun and rewarding, so you do what you enjoy most, and you will be good at doing it. As for having a bad day, I've been here almost 6 years, rest assured, I've had bad days. I didn't go for being an admin until well over 5 years, and my first couple of years were a little rough. No one expect perfection, but we do appreciate good faith efforts to make Misplaced Pages a better place, and you seem a natural at that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

How to solve this.

I have a problem and I'm told you might be able to advise me on how to solve it. Rather than repeating myself, I'll point you at my most recent failed attempt. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 06:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Also see: User talk:Tide rolls#Still-24-45-42-125 / Belchfire and User talk:Tide rolls#Problem --Guy Macon (talk) 08:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I see User:Tide rolls has become involved. What I know of him, he seems quite reasonable and competent, so I would defer to him in the matter as there is not an advantage to having multiple admins trying to deal with a problem and stumbling over each other's feet. For what it's worth, Still, I think you wear your feelings a bit on your sleeve and this leads to you getting your feeling hurt from time to time, and you seem to have a very negative view of everyone you encounter, admin or not. I don't have any comment on the merits of this particular case as I haven't looked into it deeply enough to express and intelligent opinion in the matter, but you would probably do yourself a favor if you worried more about content and less about politics. As for outing, you clearly named yourself after your IP, and the geolocation of any IP is public domain info, which is why it is actually more anonymous to have a registered name that doesn't indicate your locale, but it seems a bit late for that. Of course, I use my real name and everyone knows I live in North Carolina, but I find this keeps me honest.

There is an old expression Birds of a feather, flock together, and finding groups that have the same ideas or goals is just as common on Misplaced Pages as it is in the real world. When several editors share the same opinion, it isn't a Cabal, it is like minded people. Often this forms the basis for a consensus. When this consensus is counter to neutrality or policy, WP:DRN is the first option, or an WP:RFC can be drafted that will allow the larger community to pipe in and restore neutrality within articles. This is the proper way to deal with disputes.

I'm pretty outspoken on many issues in the real world, although I don't edit the articles on the topic here so much, simply because I have other interests and things I'm better at, so they get my time. This includes LGBT advocacy, drug legalization, opening the borders and other Libertarian-like issues that could easily descend into bitter arguments, but don't. I don't catch a lot of heat for being so outspoken because of the tone I take, the method of communication I choose, to engage rather than be confrontational. There is something to be said about using persuasion rather than accusations, and accepting the fact that not everyone will agree with you so the goal should be to achieve balance. While I appreciate your perspectives on several issues, I don't appreciate your methods (or the methods of some others in these areas, for that matter) but the solution isn't to be more combative, it is to set the example by being civil. The other advantage is that if there is a dispute, your actions aren't being examined.

Let me be frank, admins are asked to inject themselves in a great many situations, including many to which we are not familiar with the subject matter. That is just how it is, and we do the best we can to determine a fair resolution. We are always going to look at the wheel that squeaks the loudest as the most likely cause of the problems, because most of the time, it is. We are forced to make judgement calls based on insufficient data all the time, doing the best we can to look at months of contribs, determine the motivations and actions, and make a final call, all within 30 minutes typically. We can't spend hours on a single case, or nothing would get done. You are better off if you insure there isn't a reason to doubt your judgement, to make sure you aren't seen as The Boy Who Cried Wolf, or seen as someone who likes to stir the shit pot. You might not like hearing this, but I'm telling you for your own good: The people that are most successful in obtaining consensus here are the people that can work with others in a non-confrontational and civil way. It isn't instantaneous, but over the long haul, it is proven to be true. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:06, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't particularly deal with the issue I brought up. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Nothing ever deals with the issue you bring up. No solution will ever be acceptable to you until any editor who has ever disagreed with you is blocked. If you continue in this manner, you'll be blocked yourself. Ryan Vesey 20:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you done?

The issue I brought up was Guy Macon. As far as I can tell, Dennis didn't say anything directly about it. I'm sure I'm not blind, so your attack is way over the line. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 21:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I told you that Tide Rolls appears to be dealing with the issue you raised, first two sentences. The rest of it was just free and very sincere advice. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the advice, but as far as I can tell, Tide Rolls isn't doing anything at all. I wouldn't have bothered you if I thought he had any intention of acting. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I actually did address them. He didn't out you. You both leave something to be desired when it comes to civility. You both are interested in the same subject matter but are on different sides of the issue, so you will bump heads sometimes. That he and others agree isn't a cabal. If someone is trying to get you "in trouble", the best solution is to not give anyone a reason to think you are in the wrong, by taking the high road. I thought I deferred, then addressed the primary issues above. Again, it isn't likely what you wanted to hear, but it is the truth.

If your attempts at justice have failed, it might be because there is no justice here, we just try to keep the playing field level. You have a different idea about how Misplaced Pages works than the reality of it is. Admins aren't school principals, you have to learn to get along with others on your own. If there is a serious breach of policy, Tide Rolls would have taken action. I didn't see or I would have as well. I see two sides of an issue being dickish to each other. You set yourself up to get your feelings hurt and you need to develop thicker skin and a different way of communicating. Had you been the pinnacle of civility here, it would have allowed me to apply some pressure on Belchfire and Guy Mason, but you are all equally rude to each other, so you have guaranteed I can't really say anything. I covered this all above, just more gently. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:20, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Gentleness is wasted upon me; bluntness works better. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

@StillStanding, We crossed paths a couple of times when you were editing as an IP, and since then I've kind of kept an eye on you because you often make me laugh with your clever and sometimes snarky sense of humor. As far as I can tell I haven't had the occasion to take your side or to oppose you at any article yet, but I've seen a lot of the drama you've been immersed in recently, albeit from afar. The reason I'm butting into this conversation is because what Dennis said above is very good advice, in my opinion, and I want to encourage you to re-read it, and then try to follow it. Misplaced Pages is a community and for it to work properly people need to learn how to disagree without being disagreeable. Ok, I'm going to stop throwing around cheesy slogans and mind my own business now, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate your input. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to go a bit further. Still, you are only making yourself look ridiculous when you essentially, tell well respected admins that "they got it wrong". Dennis is not the first admin you have disagreed with. While they aren't perfect, they usually get it correct and if they don't the issue usually gets corrected. Furthermore you are only impressing yourself with your ability to look up policy and the lecture others on the proper use of said policy. If that is not bad enough, you make it far worse when you act on enforcing your interpretation of policy. If you continue on this path, you will most certainly be facing blocks and community sanctions. If you are serious about building an encyclopedia instead of pushing POV, then I suggest you seek a mentor who can act as a sounding board and show you how to navigate the turbulent waters of political articles more smoothly.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  22:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, how did mentoring work for you on your previous accounts? How long did your blocks get before you closed them down and started fresh? StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Like any self-change, success is relative to the desire and willingness of the person being mentored. I've undergone mentoring once, it went swimmingly. I've mentored someone else, the results were a bit mixed. Mentoring only works if the mentored understand and accept their shortcomings and have a genuine desire to address them. This is no different than in the real world: people who think there is nothing wrong with the way they are, don't change. Those that can see and accept their flaws, take ownership of them and can change them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:25, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you just repeated the punchline to "How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?" StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:38, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:29, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I'm going to read them over and see what specific changes I can make in my behavior. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:08, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Good luck with that! ```Buster Seven Talk 03:36, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible vandalism; or disruptive editing?

Hello, Dennis

I believe I need your assistance regarding a situation which I don't know whether I should report to WP:ANI/WP:AIV or not. Miros 0571 (talk · contribs) is systematically removing images from Windows 8 article. (Please see , , and .) In addition, he has added a {{di-orphaned fair use}} to File:Windows 8 start screen.png which is being used on five different articles.

I can neither assume good faith nor bad faith in him; but his edits are definitely wrong. Unfortunately, I cannot contact him because this incident involving him means that he is probably inclined to treat me with utmost hostility.

Any suggestions as to how to handle this situation would be highly appreciated.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 19:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Like all content disputes, and under WP:BRD, he changed, you reverted, now you need to start a discussion on the article talk page. ie: "I reverted the images because of $x, please discuss before reverting back", and allow others editing to pipe in as well. You always start on the article talk page, then WP:DRN if you haven't been able to hash it out or they refuse to participate on the talk page. The key is starting at the lowest possible level. And of course, listen to his rationale. I have left them a note on their talk page asking them to not remove images that way, and telling them they need to discuss it on the article talk page. That should be enough to get them started, if not or you get any heat over it, ping me again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:52, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
  • • I'm assuming he gets the point, based on the summary in this . Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Conscientious Objection

Hello Dennis Brown,

Is it possible that I want to be forbidden from Misplaced Pages, forever, as a regard of my conscientious objection to be here anymore?

If it's possible, what should I do?

Thanks.

Barayev (talk) 03:12, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm a little confused. You can request to be blocked, although the number of admins willing to do self requested blocks is limited. You say you have "conscientious objections" to being here, a phrase I'm familiar with but usually in the context of military service. Misplaced Pages isn't mandatory like the military is once you sign on the dotted line, you can always simply not come here. Is there some objection or issue that you want to share? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:20, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know it's used as a term for military objection. Anyway, I used it allegorically. Thanks. ;) Barayev (talk) 03:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I constantly see the phrase "we're all volunteers here" used as an explanation to new editors of why some requested change cannot be done (or at least, done quickly) on Misplaced Pages. I can never resist pointing out that introducing conscription may not be a welcome solution to that issue.

I'm also in agreement with Dennis that there are not currently any editors who are forced to edit. University level education is optional in all countries I'm aware of. Although secondary education is legally compulsory in many countries, I believe all of the editing projects at that level have been optional (what the Americans call "elective"). However, it's always possible that in the future, such secondary school editing projects will become more widespread, some will not be optional, and therefore we will have a subset of editors who are editing because they don't have a choice about it.

I do very commonly see editors forced to make edits because their employers tell them to, indeed sometimes these editors are less than happy about it. But of course they do in theory have the option of quitting their job. Perhaps some of those employed by the military are the exceptions to that. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:16, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Could a self-block be requested by an IP address? Such as those from corporations having problems with employees making incriminating COI edits? User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 02:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

It is doubtful that it would be fulfilled. I wouldn't. They could easily blacklist wikipedia by adding a dns or hosts entry pointing en.wikipedia.org to 127.0.0.1. Literally one line in the server's /etc/reseolv.conf file. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Emailed her, after I kicked myself for not thinking about her. Dougweller (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

• Not a prob, this is what is good about the project, many minds working on a common goal. Normally, those areas of WP are too far away for me to touch with my 10 foot pole, although we all need to work towards learning enough to "police" it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:25, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Boy

Your addition to Boy is precious again, awesome Wikipedian of 15 May ;) Left by User:Gerda Arendt

That is an exceptionally good image of a newborn, and certainly worthy of being the lede photo for that article. That it is also a "birth day" present is just a bonus. :)

Now Drmies can say "That's my boy." Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:59, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Personal attack?

Hi, Dennis. I have a quick question. Unless I'm mistaken, I have removed what appears to be a personal attack by MegaCyanide666 (talk · contribs) and warned him to stay back and follow WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, as well as WP:BATTLEGROUND. Is this acceptable? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:02, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

• Seems like a perfectly reasonable response, and you even hand wrote it rather than use a template, so I would say that is a very proper response. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:28, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
• I've looked closer, and this seems to be a pattern. I've blocked him for 48 hours. That was simply way too far over the line. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I've revdel'ed his comments as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:42, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
  • You're welcome. Best wishes, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:31, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, the personal attack has been seemingly restored with the edit summary "If I wanted anything removed I would do it myself lol". I am concerned that it might be inappropriate to restore the attack per WP:TPO. Can you please do something about this? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:30, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
    • I had revdel'ed the worst of it, the really strong stuff. If he wants to keep the non-revdel'ed parts on his page, so be it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Got it. I was a little concerned about this, since personal attacks towards anyone are not tolerated. Thanks for your time looking into this matter. :) Best wishes, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:59, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
        • They shouldn't be, which is why I revdel'ed the worst of it and blocked the user. But if he wants the more minor comment on his page, that is fine as well. Sometimes I will leave an insult on my talk page as well. It doesn't reflect poorly on me, only on the the one that left it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Rock on

You rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111 Egg Centric 23:28, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Re: User talk:Arkon

Arkon (talk) 02:59, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

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A kitten for you!

Hello!

 RexRowan  Talk  14:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

A cheeseburger for you!

For independently restoring Penyulap's Talk. A hot, fresh, 1/2 lb. California deluxe bacon-chessburger. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Here again!

Well as one of the most reasonable admins that I have encountered could you have a look at my talk page. Trying to just improve some pages I seem to draw a continuous gang of editors afraid I may have a differing opinion at ]. I am sure you have seen this craziness before! LOL. I have attempted several times to offer an alternative to the apparent railroading going on there (1 Admin and 4-5 editors banned or blocked to protect a POV...give my "best" to Penyulap). Looking at my talk page you should see about the 5th accusation I am some sockpuppet to be feared by these editors despite process failure each accusation launched. (interesting to watch the hoop jumping though) My comment on almost every page have been closed or removed, magically disapeared or degrading comment from most pages where discussion on this topic has been happenning. Now not one of these accusations on my talk page have ever been launched or successful (I have seen your involvement). If I didn't know better I would say they are terrified my POV may have some reasonability to it and each time I get off an incorrect indef block or some other hounding charge block, massive fear of this IP seems to set in again with this crowd. Please note that all attacks on myself are from people that disagree with my POV in the discussions. Anyway the process on that mediation page is a disgusting display of WIkiGarbage but has resulted in a constant barrage of attacks on my talk page. Another occasion I removed the apparent junk from my talk page and got blocked for harrassment or some other WP:POS reason another pointy editor did. Is there any point in continuing at wikipedia? I have no place to go anymore. Are editors so afraid of IP editor's input into conversations and so OCD into blocking and banning them as a game? I have been instructed to get an account a few times but absolutely refuse to even consider it, atter these demonstrations. It only appears to be a way of getting editors that want to discuss with a differing view, permanently banned, whereas an IP can usually come back. hmmmm... I wonder if my ISP would give me a different IP for the asking??. I am getting really sick of the name calling and attacks to disguise the The Beatles issue losing arguments. BTW:Nobody will buy into the outcome of that mediation anyway. It's way too obvious what's going on there. Many have hinted at the conspiracy and the comments just disappear along with all the contravening opinions. (I would supply some more examples but they have mostly disappeared from the page now) Most smarter ones are just silent and not heard anymore or ever. Yeah! Just what you needed to read today! The crapola is getting thicker. LOL 99.251.125.65 (talk) 00:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)