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Note on Precedent

Because the article leads with recent rulings, I would like to provide some additional context. I propose the following text:

These 21st Century decisions represent a departure from established precedent, and were the first major rulings on the 2nd Amendment since the Supreme Court held that a sawed-off shotgun did not qualify as a militia weapon.

When I added this text, North8000 reverted the edit, saying: "Numeorus problems. Implausible opinion stated as fact in the voice of wikipedia. Unsourced....source merely said that some had that opinion. Also, such would be undue for the lead.)" This is both incorrect and baseless opinion.

The addition is 1) not unsourced 2) not implausible opinion and 3) arguably quite relevant for the lead as it is additional detail directly relevant to material already in the lead, but not overly verbose. The addition is sourced to the dissenting opinion from the 5-4 supreme court ruling, quoted in the new york times, and to a pulitzer-prize winning historian. Inijones (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

1. ""Linda Greenhouse, "Justices Rule for Individual Gun Rights," New York Times, June 27, 2008"". ("In a dissenting opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens took vigorous issue with Justice Scalia’s assertion that it was the Second Amendment that had enshrined the individual right to own a gun. Rather, it was 'today’s law-changing decision' that bestowed the right and created 'a dramatic upheaval in the law,' Justice Stevens said in a dissent joined by Justices David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen G. Breyer. Justice Breyer, also speaking for the others, filed a separate dissenting opinion... Justice Stevens said the majority opinion was based on 'a strained and unpersuasive reading' of the text and history of the Second Amendment...")
2. Garry Wills, A Necessary Evil: A History of American Distrust of Government, Simon and Schuster, 1999, page 252. ("There has been only one significant Second Amendment case decided by the Supreme Court -- United States v. Miller, in 1939, where the National Firearms Act was upheld against a man who claimed that the amendment allowed him to keep and bear a sawed-off shotgun. The Court declared that a sawed-off shotgun is not a militia weapon.")

The citations I provided contained the following quotations:

"In a dissenting opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens took vigorous issue with Justice Scalia’s assertion that it was the Second Amendment that had enshrined the individual right to own a gun. Rather, it was 'today’s law-changing decision' that bestowed the right and created 'a dramatic upheaval in the law,' Justice Stevens said in a dissent joined by Justices David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen G. Breyer. Justice Breyer, also speaking for the others, filed a separate dissenting opinion... Justice Stevens said the majority opinion was based on 'a strained and unpersuasive reading' of the text and history of the Second Amendment..." from: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/washington/27scotuscnd.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp&adxnnlx=1214566644-y9NRsbBuErVCPyegbU0ryg

and

"There has been only one significant Second Amendment case decided by the Supreme Court -- United States v. Miller, in 1939, where the National Firearms Act was upheld against a man who claimed that the amendment allowed him to keep and bear a sawed-off shotgun. The Court declared that a sawed-off shotgun is not a militia weapon."Inijones (talk) 14:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

from :Garry Wills, A Necessary Evil: A History of American Distrust of Government, Simon and Schuster, 1999, page 252

Trying to put all of the issues into an edit summary can make some of them unclear. To expand and clarify a bit:

The "represent a departure from established precedent" has many significant problems. First there is no sourcing that indicates that even the minority dissenting opinion said that (that doesn't come from "law-changing" which is what the Supreme court rulings routinely do.) Second, that mis-summarization was put in as fact in the voice of Misplaced Pages. Even if the material were modified so as to be an accurate summarization of the minority opinion, it would need to be stated as such, not as fact. If all of the above were fixed, it would still be questionable (but debatable) whether or not including a dissenting opinion for a Supreme Court decision is undue for the lead of the top level 2A article.

Regarding sourcing, the core statement misses by the same two points plus a third which the others render temporarily moot. The summary does not match the source even on what the minority opinion was, and even if it did, the source merely says what the minority opinion was, not that such is fact. If it did attempt that, (which it didn't) such would be a very implausible assertion and certainly not sufficient sourcing for putting such an implausible assertion in as fact in the voice of Misplaced Pages. North8000 (talk) 15:32, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with North8000. I would also add that this looks like a backdoor attempt to criticize the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Second Amendment and has no place in the lead.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:36, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The entire second paragraph is about these 21st century rulings. The dissenting opinion is part of these rulings. Perhaps the entire second paragraph should be moved somewhere else, perhaps given its own section, such that the note about the dissenting opinion can be included (though I think such a decision would be somewhat extreme, given that it is simpler to include my proposed addition). Given that the ruling was 5-4, the dissenting opinion is not a marginal view. "All published opinions except Per Curiam decisions may be used as precedent in future litigation" http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_types_of_written_opinions_may_the_US_Supreme_Court_issue

The New York Times Article I cites continues: "For decades, the overwhelming majority of courts and commentators regarded the Miller decision as having rejected the individual-right interpretation of the Second Amendment. That understanding of the 'virtually unreasoned case' was mistaken, Justice Scalia said Thursday. He said the Miller decision meant 'only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns.' Justice Stevens said the majority’s understanding of the Miller decision was not only 'simply wrong,' but also reflected a lack of 'respect for the well-settled views of all of our predecessors on the court, and for the rule of law itself.' I am not mis-representing the secondary source's characterization of the dissenting opinion. Your statement that "The summary does not match the source even on what the minority opinion was" is incorrect, just as your initial characterization of my addition as "Unsourced" was incorrect.

Nelson Lund of the George Mason University School of Law says of Heller that "the Justices were confronted with only one significant Supreme Court precedent, an eight page opinion in United States v. Miller." Miller is the case I cited in my second citation. Given that the Supreme Court dissenting opinion claims the Heller decision is a "law changing" "dramatic upheaval" of the "one significant...precedent" I don't think it is a stretch to make the modest claim that this decisions represents a departure from precedent. See this link for more detail http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1235537

It doesn't matter whether you accept the secondary source I provided as factual. The statement is verifiable, is from a secondary source (not original research), and is not editorializing on my part. The statement also come from reliable sources. The statement meets Misplaced Pages guidelines. Inijones (talk) 19:02, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't care much what Wiki Answers says. A dissent is a dissent and has little if any precedential value. It can be cited and is cited, but that doesn't mean it binds anyone. If you want to add something, it would have to be added to the right section of the article, either under commentary or in a discussion of the S. Ct. cases. And, even then, it would have to be sufficiently relevant to be included. Sourcing is just the first part. It has to be appropriate for the article and for its placement in the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

You haven't addressed the substance of my reply; perhaps you would be amenable to the solution I proposed in point 1 above.Inijones (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm short of time at the moment but to correct one point I did not say that there was no source given, I said that the given sourcing did not substantiate the statement. And the weakest point regarding this and of the statement itself was stating a minority opinion as fact, and doing so in the voice of Misplaced Pages. North8000 (talk) 19:31, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

It is incorrect that the given sourcing does not substantiate the claim, as the additional quotation I provided in point 2 makes more explicit. It is not my fault that you didn't read the source I provided before you rejected it. And you did say in your initial note reversing my edit that the claim was "Unsourced....source merely said that some had that opinion" Inijones (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

My points were consistent, even if harder to understand in the edit summary due to being so brief. The sourcing only showed that the minority opinion was such. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

As noted in point 2 above, the New York Times secondary source article I initially cited indicates that "For decades, the overwhelming majority of courts and commentators regarded the Miller decision as having rejected the individual-right interpretation of the Second Amendment." This statement is not sourced to an individual justice or a specific judicial opinion, but is stated by the New York Times, a reliable source, as fact.Inijones (talk) 03:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

That opinion does not mean that it can be stated as fact in the voice of Misplaced Pages, doubly so for being in the lead. Please stop trying to war it in. that way. Attributed and in the body of the article IMO would be OK. North8000 (talk) 15:03, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

It is stated as fact in the New York Times article I cited above. Again, your characterization of my addition is incorrect. The addition is directly relevant to material already present in that paragraph; as I noted above the entire paragraph is dedicated to these 21st century rulings, and the exclusion of this one statement, which meets Misplaced Pages standards, is arbitrary. Perhaps you would be amenable to the solution I proposed in point 1 above, that the entire paragraph be moved elsewhere. I will be seeking outside assistance for the resolution of this dispute.Inijones (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Putting the newspaper's assertion into the body of the article with attribution (e.g. according to xxxx of the New York Times, xxxxxxxxxxxxx) with more specifics is about all that would be appropriate. North8000 talk) 16:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

You are trying to elevate a highly controversial opinion by a newspaper inappropriately at least two levels above what it is due:

1. First by stating it as fact in the voice of Misplaced Pages.
2. Second by trying to put in the lead of the top level 2nd amendment article. One newspaper's opinion about one (key) court decision regarding the amendment does not belong in the lead. Sincerely,North8000 (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I have corroborated the newspaper's statement with a pulitzer prize winning historian in my original edit and with a law professor from george mason university in point 3 above. The dissenting judges in the split decision also hold that view. I'm sorry you don't accept this as fact, but on Misplaced Pages, your personal preference isn't the criterion for including a statement.

If it is appropriate to emphasize these rulings in the lead, why should this facet of the rulings be omitted? If this facet of the ruling does not belong in the lead, it calls into question whether the entire paragraph belongs in the lead. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to move the entire paragraph elsewhere into the body, as I suggested in point 1 above, which I reiterated to user Bbb23 above, and which I again suggested to you just above at 15:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC).

My alternative suggestion has not been addressed and I have demonstrated most of your objections to be mistaken (statement was not unsourced, it was not true that the source does not substantiate the claim, and your characterization of the statement as "One newspaper's opinion about one (key) court decision regarding the amendment" is an inaccurate characterization of the position, as I have demonstrated).Inijones (talk) 18:00, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

There are zillions of published opinions regarding the Supreme Court ruling. It does not follow that putting the Supreme Court ruling into the lead means that one of those many published opinions about it (selected by you) should be in the lead. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:17, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with North & Bbb - the reference to the minority opinion does not belong in the lead as it is not significant enough to warrant inclusion in the lead and seems to slant towards POV.Grahamboat (talk) 21:07, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Outdent- I believe we need a consensus before changing the lead.Grahamboat (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

The hangup with my initial edit seems to be over my characterization of "precedent."

When I posted a modified compromise addition excluding any discussion of "precedent" my addition was rejected on the grounds that discussion of the 1939 Miller case "does not make sense in the lead and does not belong in the lead" though no reason was given for why the statement didn't make sense. As I pointed out, the second paragraph of the lead is dedicated to significant Supreme Court cases, and it is consistent to bring in mention of a third, significant case.

When I moved to implement my third choice, initially mentioned in point 1 above and reiterated several times without comment or objection -- moving the text in question in an unmodified form from the lead to the relevant sections, my edit was again reverted.

Why does it make sense to mention Heller and McDonald in the lead, but not Miller? Inijones (talk) 20:30, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

It's hard to have a conversation with you because there is a consistent pattern of you keep trying to hammer problematic edits into the lead to denigrate the major "individual right" decisions. And, with all due respect, your questions / comments seem somewhat manipulative trying to work towards that end. This most recent question is an example. While the question of whether anything on Miller belongs in the lead (Miller dealing with only a much narrower issue) is certainly legitimate, you are implying that it was the main question regarding your insertion, whereas IMHO your insertion was again done in a way along the lines of what I described in the first paragraph of this post, and with similar wiki-problems as the previous insertions. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:11, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

You characterize my edits as trying to "denigrate the major 'individual rights' decisions." That's your interpretation of what I'm doing. You are right to imply that there is controversy regarding the decision, but that controversy cuts both ways.

Your characterization of my insertion at the beginning of this post made the following points:

"First there is no sourcing that indicates that even the minority dissenting opinion said that" I believe this is inaccurate as I noted in point 2 above as well as at 03:23, 30 April 2012 above.

You characterize my edit as an "implausible assertion" but that is your POV. As I noted in point 5 above, I corroborated this implication from a reliable source with similar statements from other reliable sources.

The problems you pointed out at the top of this post do not apply to my most recent edit, as I took out the offending material under the guidance of a moderator.

You accuse me of being manipulative; I am just arguing for the inclusion of a single statement that meets WikiPedia guidelines and which I have modified subsequent to receiving feedback from a moderator. If the implication is that I am not acting in good faith, I would point out that I could levy the same accusation against you and your conduct. For example, when I was trying to formulate a conservative position towards the relevance of the ratification debate back in December, and I cited Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist #25, as cautioning that "feeble government" is unlikely to be respected, you dismissed Hamilton's position as being "one person arguing for a non-feeble government." That is kind of absurd. You are hard to talk to too, but I am trying to defend my simple edit methodologically and you repeatedly mis-characterize my statements and avoid addressing the substance of my claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution&oldid=465658465#Ratification_debate_and_its_purpose

You acknowledge that "While the question of whether anything on Miller belongs in the lead (Miller dealing with only a much narrower issue) is certainly legitimate." Why not address the question that prompted your most recent reply:

The entire second paragraph is about Supreme Court cases. If Heller and McDonald fit into the lead, why doesn't Miller? If Miller should be removed, why not remove Heller and McDonald to the appropriate sections in the body of the article? (unsigned comment by Inijones)

I have high hopes because you exhibit much more than most of what's needed for discussion on a high plane. But you continue the same stuff. On you point #9 you completely omitted the operative part of my statement (that it does not even address much less refute "potential check against tyranny" being one of the reasons for the 2A. ) and substituted a straw man operative statement that I never made (a gemeral denigration of Hamilton's position by me)). North8000 (talk) 02:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Inijones - By moving the text in question to the District of Columbia v. Heller heading you caused McDonald v. Chicago to appear as part of the introduction. This didn’t make sense so I reverted. I think a consensus is needed before making these changes. Most of us believe Heller belongs in the lead because it defines the law – Miller does not. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 21:39, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Miller was ambiguous as both sides claimed victory. Neither the defendants nor their legal counsel appeared at the U.S. Supreme Court so there was no counter argument. The case revolved around the weapon itself rather than an individual or collective right.Grahamboat (talk) 21:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I did initially move the "McDonald v. Chicago" text into the wrong header, but I corrected that before you reversed my edit. If that is your reason for reversing my edit, you are mistaken. one person arguing for a non-feeble government

If "Miller was ambiguous as both sides claimed victory" that seems like grounds for everybody to agree to include it.

So I ask again: the entire second paragraph is about Supreme Court cases. If Heller and McDonald fit into the lead, why doesn't Miller? If Miller should be removed, why not remove Heller and McDonald to the appropriate sections in the body of the article? Inijones (talk) 23:11, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

The second paragraph is not about Supreme Court cases per say - it is about the cases that count. Heller defines what the 2nd A. means. The fact that there were dissenting opinions bears no legal weight. Miller was a vague case, without counter argument, that did not resolve the central question of collective verses individual rights. In order to reach a consensus of the other editors here you have to present other (new) arguments than you already have. I suggest that you reread the “Outside opinion” you requested.Grahamboat (talk) 23:24, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor here (saw this at Dispute resolution noticeboard). I read all of the above arguments and checked selected citations, and I am with North8000 on this one. We cannot state a minority opinion as if it was a fact, and in particular we cannot do so in the voice of Misplaced Pages. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Guy, the note about the dissenting opinion was omitted from a more recent edit under the guidance of a moderator. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution&oldid=490126109

What I am trying to determine at this point is why two supreme court cases CAN go in the lead, but not another one. Nobody will address that clearly. The closest I've seen is that Grahamboat says Miller doesn't "count" even though it is still in effect and I have cited numerous sources indicating it was the last significant case prior to Heller and McDonald. If Grahamboat wants to exclude it on the grounds that it doesn't "count" that sounds like POV. There also seems to be an underlying assumption here that doing nothing is inherently POV neutral. Inijones (talk) 14:48, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

That question is on a completely different topic than what you have been trying to do in the lead, (and as such, is vague and hypothetical) yet you are implying that they are related. You have not proposed any edits that involve merely including Miller in the lead, without the other issues of your attempted insertions. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:56, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Asked and answered three times already, and not particularly relevant to the question at hand. I see no point in answering your question a fourth time when other editors have already answered it mulltiple times. The problem is that you don't accept the answers. Asking again will not change that.

So I have a question for you; after many arguments posted here and at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, have you been able to convince a single Misplaced Pages editor to support the changes you want to make to this article? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:11, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe you misunderstood my comment about Miller not “counting”. I was referring to its importance in the lead. The Miller challenge was about whether a particular type of weapon, restricted under NFA, violated 2A. As such it was a minor and somewhat narrow 2A ruling because it did not explore the broad meaning of the 2A as Heller and McDonald did. You keep bring back the same arguments and yet somehow you expect a different outcome.Grahamboat (talk) 04:35, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Court material added by Liko81 and then reverted

This was a bit hard to understand. Could someone clarify the reasons for addition or deletion? Is this good materiel for the article? Thanks. North8000 (talk) 01:27, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

He added two cases. As my summary stated, one had no cites in support of it, and the other was a pending appeal (and also had no cites). I reverted.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Summary of incident

INITIAL INCIDENT

I sought to contribute a statement that made two basic claims about the Supreme Court cases mentioned in the lead of the 2nd Amendment article: 1) that "These 21st Century decisions represent a departure from established precedent," and that 2) these same cases "were the first major rulings on the 2nd Amendment since the Supreme Court held that a sawed-off shotgun did not qualify as a militia weapon" . Each claim was supported by a verifiable, reliable source that substantiated the claims. The statement, however, was initially rejected as "unsourced." When I re-instated my edit, pointing out that the reason for rejecting it was incorrect, and that the statement was substantiated by the "dissenting opinion in the 5-4 ruling as quoted in the new york times, and the second cite was from a book by a pulitzer-prize winning historian," the statement was rejected again because I "didn't address the actual noted issues."

At this point, I felt my position was not adequately addressed, and would benefit from the additional perspective of a third party moderator, so, after attempting to argue my edit, I sought informal assistance.

INITIAL INTERACTIONS WITH MODERATOR

TransporterMan, the editor who first stepped in to moderate the discussion focused his assessment of the situation on my text about the dissenting opinion from Heller. I removed that under his advice. His assessment struck me as reasonable and in good faith, so I modified my edit to exclude any claim pertaining to the dissenting opinion.

I then attempted, instead, to include a factual statement indicating the year of the Miller case and the content of the finding. In his first post, TransporterMan had ALREADY said that this second half my initial edit was "relatively accurate and harmless."

I did not after that point pursue any effort to include anything about the dissenting opinion, and attempted to include only that portion of my initial edit that was assessed as "relatively accurate and harmless." My behavior was not vandalism.

ONLY OPPORTUNITY TO COMPROMISE BASED ON FEEDBACK FROM MODERATOR

Based on TransponderMan's assessment of my edit, which seemed oriented towards explaining to me the resistance I encountered with North8000, I added to the page my modified edit about the year of the Miller case and the case's finding. I made this edit as a compromise approached through informal means. The citation I provided (and, additional citations provided on the talk page) supported the claim that Miller was the most significant Supreme Court ruling on the 2nd Amendment prior to Heller and McDonald. The moderator understood this claim to be essentially "accurate." The entire second paragraph of the lead is already about Supreme court cases; there are, in fact, relatively few Second Amendment cases, and Miller is a significant one, as I have shown. I've provided several sources indicating that Miller is significant, and even the TOC of the current article seems to back up this claim. It furthermore seems that Miller is already alluded to in the existing text of the lead, where several "longstanding" restrictions on firearm ownership are mentioned.

My modified compromise edit seemed like a reasonable and uncontroversial fact to insert by way of making a more well-rounded summary of Supreme Court case law already mentioned in the lead. If this factual statement is going to be excluded, perhaps no discussion of Supreme Court law whatsoever belongs in the lead, and any indication for it should be confined to the relevant sections within the body of the article.

CIRCUMSTANCES WHEREBY COMPROMISE WAS REJECTED

When I made this "accurate" compromise edit, it was STILL rejected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution&diff=490128328&oldid=490126109

The reason provided for reverting this edit didn't seem to take into account the fact that this edit was a modified compromise position. Grahamboat indicated that mentioning Miller "didn't make sense in the lead" -- without providing any explanation as to why.

This compromise statement was rejected despite the moderator's initial view that my characterization of McDonald and Heller as "the first major rulings on the 2nd Amendment since the Supreme Court held that a sawed-off shotgun did not qualify as a militia weapon" was "relatively accurate and harmless."

My contention at this point was that if Miller is excluded from the lead, the same logic can be used to ALSO exclude Heller and McDonald from the lead. If McDonald and Heller belong in the lead, there is no good reason to exclude Miller.

I therefore moved the existing text on Heller and McDonald -- unmodified -- from the second paragraph of the lead and inserted the text in the proper two subsections of the article that were already dedicated to those individual Supreme Court cases. I had mentioned this possibility several times -- as the least preferable outcome -- and it was never objected to previously.

When this next edit was also rejected, the reason given for reverting the edit was demonstrably false. In the talk page Grahamboat said that I made an error while moving the text, and suggested that this was his real reason for rejecting my edit. I caught the error within minutes and corrected it well before Grahamboat reverted the edit. Grahamboat has not offered a more descriptive reason for why he reversed my edit, nor responded to my claim about his false characterization of my edit.

Nobody stepped in with a "consensus" reason for reverting the edit (other than to suggest that "consensus" was needed to make any change). After I pointed out (twice) that the editor's note describing why the edit was reversed was false, nobody attempted to improve my "relatively accurate and harmless" contribution. This all could have ended with TransporterMan's first post. I am not the one stirring up trouble, and my actions are not "vandalism."

ADDITIONAL VIEWS EXPRESSED ON THE NOTICE BOARD LACKING MERIT

The most recent editor to chime in, Guy, lent an initial opinion without making note of the fact that I had modified my edit to represent a compromise position; to get a more useful assessment from Guy I took the initiative to re-iterate that I was now trying to understand why my "relatively accurate and harmless" (harmless to who, or WHAT... ideology?) subsequent edits were also being blocked. When I pointed this out, Guy said that the question of why Miller should be excluded from the lead while Heller and McDonald belong in the lead had already been answered. Since I had asked the question repeatedly and would obviously seem to have been missing something, it would have been helpful to hear what Guy understood the reason to be. Guy, however, declined to make a contribution that would have clarified or substantively helped resolve the terms of the disagreement as it stood at that point.

OTHER REASONS OFFERED FOR BLOCKING EDITS REPRESENT POV

North8000 had said the matter of including such a reference to Miller as I proposed or, alternately, removing the text on McDonald and Heller is a "legitimate" issue, but declined to address the merits of the issue any further than that, even though I repeatedly asked for more detail on that very point. Guy didn't address this while dismissing my concerns.

Some of the reasons Grahamboat has given for blocking my edits seem to indicate that he is exploiting the consensus policy to block ANY edits that don't conform to his POV, such as when he justified blocking my "relatively accurate and harmless" edit on the grounds that "The second paragraph is not about Supreme Court cases per say - it is about the cases that count." If the consensus is, as Grahamboat has stated it, that only Heller and McDonald "count" -- especially in such an unqualified manner -- I'd say the consensus has a POV problem. Nobody has put forth any more robust reasoning. I was cooperating and willing to split the difference under the guidance of the initial moderator TransporterMan, who offered a well-reasoned position and who was not dismissive of my concerns. The latest editor, Guy, did not address ANY of this in rendering his passing opinion, even when I pointed out to him that his initial opinion was NOT exactly relevant and indicated to him WHY.

Grahamboat has also suggested that McDonald and Heller "define" the law (or, in this case, it would seem, the Amendment), though I do not see how Miller is substantially different in that respect, nor how that doesn't entail the POV of a specific legal theory. An "Originalist," for example, might have a slightly different attitude towards what "defines" an amendment or a law or the scope of a law. Nor do I understand even why the second paragraph of the lead ought not be modified to serve as a more well-rounded summary of significant Supreme Court case law, especially since my modified edit makes no mention of the Heller controversy (although the existing text does promote this controversial material to the lead; my revised edit is "Heller controversy neutral" and, furthermore, may help improve the second paragraph by providing additional context that makes the lead look less like an endorsement of a single POV in the controversy or, by extension, an endorsement of a single legal philosophy).

PROPOSED REMEDIES

The article has now been protected due to "vandalism" it would seem because of my efforts to include a statement in the 2nd Amendment article, which "a native Texan" moderator initially characterized as "relatively accurate and harmless." I have been experiencing unreasonable resistance to a reasonable edit. I don't think there are grounds to consider my actions "vandalism" and I think, at a bare minimum, the page should be restored to the "unprotected" status it had previous to this dispute, so that other editors can contribute to the page (that is, if they are allowed to do so). I've been working this issue out through talk pages, and I am not a "vandalism" threat to this page.

The vandalism tag does seem to be in use to exclude discussion, as, since getting page protection, these editors have, instead of compromise with me, strengthened the controversial content of the lead.

Ideally, my compromise statement about the 1939 Miller case should also be included in the lea, as it is "relatively accurate and harmless." But since the editors have since strengthened the controversial character of the lead, I think the lead would be more neutral if the discussion of Supreme Court cases were removed from the lead altogether and placed under the appropriate subheadings in the body of the article. Inijones (talk) 13:01, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

In the above rather lengthy diatribe, Inijones makes several comments about me, mostly accusations that I did not respond to his arguments about the content of this page. This lack of response was purposeful, because I have zero interest in and offer no opinion regarding the underlying content dispute. My only involvement (based on a specific request for an outside opinion Inijones himself made at the dispute resolution noticeboard) has been to read the arguments and to determine that the changes Inijones wishes to make are against Misplaced Pages's policies on consensus. I do not care about the actual content of the page. I am leaving that in the capable hands of the editors who are working on it. My interest is in Engineering-related articles. Asking for an outside opinion does not automatically make anyone who responds a party to the dispute. Also, asking a question repeatedly does not prove that there was something wrong with the answers or that further discussion is required. In this case, the repeated questions appear to be an example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

You have presented a mischaracterization of the facts by cherry picking comments that favor your position and omitting those that don’t. You start by calling the TALK discussion an “incident”. You claim Grahamboat indicated that mentioning Miller "didn't make sense in the lead" -- "without providing any explanation as to why" but omit my reply - "The Miller challenge was about whether a particular type of weapon, restricted under NFA, violated 2A. As such it was a minor and somewhat narrow 2A ruling because it did not explore the broad meaning of the 2A as Heller and McDonald did". You state Grahamboat said that I made an error while moving the text I caught the error within minutes and corrected it well before Grahamboat reverted the edit but did not bother to notice that after your second change the District of Columbia v. Heller section incorrectly read "In 2008 and 2010, the Supreme Court issued two Second Amendment decisions". Your use of the terms "Heller controversy" and "legal theory" indicate, to me, you are trying to disparage the SCOTUS ruling in Heller. Regarding Miller; being "relatively accurate and harmless" are not grounds for inclusion in the lead. I did not see where any editor accused you of vandalism: it is paranoid to believe editors are conspiring against you by placing a Page Protection (which I did not notice). You obviously do not understand what Page Protection is about.

In summary: you keep claiming that no one is addressing your issues and questions - which is not true. It is you who have not accepted their replies. You have not presented sufficient evidence to sway enough editors to a consensus on your views.Grahamboat (talk) 20:26, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Inijones IMHO you have repetitively ignored and/or misrepresented the answers that people have given you, then repeatedly claimed that answers weren't given. Then you throw this mountain of stuff (and put a copy of the whole thing at the notices board without saying that either was a copy) which IMHO is designed to obfuscate or misrepresent the core points of the discussion. This is really bad behavior against people who have taken a lot of time to give you those answers which you have been repeatedly ignoring, misrepresenting and claiming that you never got North8000 (talk) 02:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC).

Inijones appears to be trolling Misplaced Pages looking for support for his position and accusing editors on the article talk page of "tag teaming" him. I thought all discussions on this topic where to take place here or other formal dispute resolution pages.|see here Grahamboat (talk) 20:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, after doing all of that other stuff to other people here, why not add forum shopping and canvassing to the list. And what the heck , while canvassing, why not completely mis-represent what has been happening here. North8000 (talk) 21:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Does Miller belong in the lead?

This is somewhat a continuation of the discussions above without the dissenting opinion (Precedent) and the ridiculous “incident” report.

I tried to be open minded: reviewing the other side because a Miller reference was at least debatable. I thought having the second paragraph start out with “sawed-off shotgun” was out of place. I tried rewording the text and came up with adding “such as upholding the National Firearms Act in United States v Miller (1939)” after “prohibitions and restrictions” in the second sentence of paragraph two. After all Miller was about acceptable restrictions to 2A. On further thought, I realized Miller was just one of numerous restrictions. It dealt with the WHAT i.e. machine guns, rifles and shotguns under 18” etc. Other laws: the Gun Control Act (1968) dealt with the WHO i.e. convicted felons, under aged etc: and still other laws dealt with the WHERE i.e. courtrooms, schools etc. SCOTUS wisely choose not to enumerate all the many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms in the Heller decision. My conclusion is Heller and McDonald belong the second paragraph of the lead because they define the meaning of 2A per SCOTUS and Miller does not because it is just one of a myriad of restrictions. It is in the body where it belongs. Prohibitions and restrictions are rightly mentioned as part of the ditca.Grahamboat (talk) 19:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I say you should edit the page as you indicate above. I have the page on my watchlist, and I will deal with any disruptive editing by Inijones (Inijones, you are encouraged to stop your disruptive behavior and become a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community). I will also review your edits and let you know if I see any obvious problems. In other words, improve the article to the best of your ability and WP:IAD. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that Grahamboat was taking us through their reasoning when they decided to not modify the lead. North8000 (talk) 12:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Clarifying one point, I don't think that there was any sincere question raised about simply putting Miller in the lead. The only times it was brought up were when it was presented as being a (mis)characterization of the particular changes that they were trying to war in, which were certainly not just about putting Miller into the lead. . North8000 (talk) 12:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Responding to Grahamboat's thoughts, I agree with you, but via coming at it from a different angle. The first sentence/paragraph is the overview. The second paragraph is IMHO the two largest and highest impact items from the article, rightly chosen. So I'm calling these the two "tier 1" items. IF we were to expand the lead, IMHO we should include the whole "next tier down"/ "tier 2" which could be 4-6 items. (including historical etc.) IMHO, IF we did that, a brief mention of Miller (despite it's narrowness) could be a part of "tier 2" simply because it is a Scotus decision. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I don’t think a “tier 2” is needed but, depending on what was included, I would not strongly object.Grahamboat (talk) 15:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

That was just my vague thoughts. North8000 (talk) 15:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi North8000 - Are you suggesting “tier 2 “ be a history showing the evolution of collective right views to individual right views starting with Miller proceeding through: Lopez/Stewart/Parker/etc ?Grahamboat (talk) 16:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Well my vague idea was that IF we expanded it, include a whole tier 2 which might, for example, include:

• 1 intro sentence explaining that "individual right" was a core question
• 2 sentences on the most prominent items from history of its creation
• One sentence on Miller
• One sentence on the most prominent non-scotus case
• Add 1-2 sentences on Heller/McDonald

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Perhaps we could include in the IF, reducing the amount of material in the body. I’ve always felt that the article was too lengthily to qualify for a Good Article; I especially remember the expansion of the English History from a couple of years ago during an edit dual, but sorry I digress. Grahamboat (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Lede

I think the lede, if it notes the 2 recent decisions (which makes some sense to me), should say something about how (or even why) SCOTUS has for so many years NOT made such landmark rulings, which i believe is the case. otherwise, a reader will ask "wha hoppen?" in regards to 2+ centuries of, well, what? My bias (or belief) is that the current SCOTUS is highly ideological and is making wild political interpretations to benefit certain forces in the US to the detriment of the majority populations wishes, but if this is not consensus (which im sure its not), still, some context for this radical recent change should be noted.(mercurywoodrose) 76.254.36.244 (talk) 03:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Any guess as to how or why SCOTUS didn't make a certain ruling is nothing short of wild speculation. SMP0328. (talk) 03:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The basis for the ruling is in the ruling and summarized in the article. Essentially that the operative clause is the operative clause, and that the preface does not modify it or place conditions on it. North8000 (talk) 10:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Well put North. I'd also question the claim of a "radical recent change". —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 11:04, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Should "Herrington v. United States" be in the article?

Highest court in District of Columbia ruled (Nov 4 2011) that, based on Heller, the 2A extends to the right to possess ammunition in the home. Should that be in the article? 99.142.10.228 (talk) 19:29, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

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