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Ongoing incivility by User:7mike5000

• Mike was indefinitely blocked Aug 2010 for "threatening off wiki action" by User:SarekOfVulcan. He was subsequently unblocked in Feb of 2011 after agreeing that he would be civil and that a block would be reapplied if he was unable to achieve this.

• On Sept 6th and Sept 17th of 2012 he received further complaints of incivility.

• His replies are here and here and are not hopeful.

• As I was uninvolved in both these resent re-occurrences I have reapplied the block. Wondering if others have comments? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:38, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

There are many other example of less than pleasant comments including: and Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:46, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Does he do anything useful? If not, indef. Otherwise ANI/warn, ANI/warn, block/unblock, block/unblock, RtFU, ArmCom, ANI/warn, block/unblock, ANI/warn, ArbCom, ANI/warn, ANI/warn, maybe he retires. It looks like he has fans. Tijfo098 (talk) 18:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but after looking and reading some of his talk page, I have no desire to see if he does anything "useful" and don't much care. Fully support the block.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:10, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• Strong oppose Mike can be a bit rough around the edges if approached the wrong way or to the uninformed (who may just have distaste for his crude but often hilarious wit). However, this user has shown great improvements since the initial block and has worked closely with his mentor to become a very productive contributor. Over a year and a half after the initial block was lifted, it is time to relax these trigger-finger sanctions. That being said, Mike, you really gotta pick and choose who you use that awesome charm of yours with, because some people are unable to cope with the artistic choice of words. Keep it to your user/talk page and out of the drama-prone discussions - Floydian  _¢ 05:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
  • You must be joking, surely. By what stretch of the imagination can the words 'hilarious wit', 'awesome charm' or 'artistic choice of words' be applied to sentences like 'please be a fat scumbag somewhere else' or 'oh yeah, and your a dick'? Support this block, Mike should know better, considering this comment. – NULL ‹talk›
    ‹edits› 06:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
    • No, I am not joking and I stand by what I said. The occasional lapses in temper are far outweighed by the contributions this user makes. - Floydian  _¢ 04:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Really? How have you measured the effects of his "lapses in temper" on the innocent users who are the targets of it, or would-be editors who are scared off by it? If an otherwise productive editor stops contributing for a week because they're hurt or angered by the insults, how much does that offset User:7mike5000's contributions? If three editors with useful information to contribute refrain from posting it in an AfD for fear of being the next target of his attacks, what weight do you assign that? —Psychonaut (talk) 07:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
        • Can you provide any evidence of even one user being scared off by Mike? - Floydian  _¢ 14:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The people driven away wouldn't necessarily stop to leave a note. Considering that many report that editing on[REDACTED] can be harsh, it would not be unexpected if some new editors were driven away or oversaw what occurred. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'm torn, but reserving judgement. He is obviously being confrontational and unnecessarily rude, but I'm not a fan of civility blocks. The fat scumbag comment is a bit out of context, and refers to Psychonaut's user page reference, which points to . Still incivil, but context does matter. That said, we will see if Mike takes a more conciliatory tone in an unblock request. Indef doesn't mean forever, although I think a fixed term block would be a better solution. This doesn't mean I have great hope long term, but I can't help but to prefer the liberal use of rope. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:19, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
• Have emailed his mentor to see if he is willing to weight in. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:18, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

That's me. Bugger. I got an email from James yesterday but have just now had a chance to look at this. Mike has been uncivil and a block is certainly justified. He does a lot of very good work but does have trouble curbing his sometimes quite acerbic tongue. I'll have a think and say more when I've had some sleep. James, I'd have preferred you to have left the blocking to another admin, given your shared history, but do understand your frustration. I'll get back. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 20:12, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

In Doc's defense, he did bring it here for review and contacted the mentor, which is the proper response (or WP:AN) if there is any potential concern regarding involvement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support block I can see why the block was made; Mike reacts to any sort of challenge aggressively and is quick to shoot people down with uncivil language. Mike states that he doesn't want to have to walk on egg shells but yet expects other people to walk on egg shells around him to avoid his hostility. I think underneath all of this, Mike has a good side in that what drives his editing by his own words is to 'help' other people by providing useful content for our readers. It would be a shame to lose a valuable contributer such as Mike but if we do it will be his own fault. I think that before the block is removed that Mike has to agree to treat others as he would like to be treated himself and try harder with how he reacts to other users with regard to civility.--MrADHD | T@1k? 08:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

• When someone points out that an image that one uploads infringes on copyright as was done here Sept 6 http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:7mike5000#File:West_nile_virus_rash.jpg_listed_for_deletion and you reply that they are a "dexter" we have a problem. Copyright infringement is a huge issue.
• Less than civil responses go back a long time. Here on July 4th he replies to concerns with "Acting like you run the show, and leaving annoying messages for people who actually make useful positive contributions as opposed to writing about kiddie's video games is also extremely bad form, as is dictating in the manner you have. Alleging somebody engaged in "vandalism" is also (drum roll goes here) extremely bad form. Ta Da"
• Another July 2nd "Hello, maybe you should make a wee bit of effort in finding information on a subject instead of coming off like a know-it-all." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:34, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

• Totally uncontroverial block. Shame on anyone who would consider ignoring such flagrant long-term hositility on grounds of productivity: we have masses of editors who edit productively who can behave civilly. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support Block Reading the user's talk page, I don't quite understand...one second he's a terrific contributor, the next second he's confrontational because someone reverted something he did or even, it seems, attempted to build upon something he did. He is extremely incivil as noted by all of the links posted above on this thread, and thus, I would support a short-term block (maybe a week). DB is right, I think, that it should be fixed, rather than indefinite. Go Phightins! (talk) 14:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) I have blocked Mike's talk page access because of personal attacks. Putting aside that he's creating a mini-ANI on his own talk page, in the midst of his long diatribe is this sentence: "Heilmann is a liar, a plagiarist and grossly incompetent in writing medical content which he refers to as medicine content." Bear in mind that this was a cumulative civility block in the first instance. If another admin disagrees with my action, they can undo it without consulting with me.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

  That should be effective in making this discussion a little more one sided. - Floydian  _¢ 14:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

  When you're already blocked for incivility, calling another editor an incompetent lying plagiarist loses you your talk page access. Every time. I'm hoping Mike will email me. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support block: Sorry, I'm sick and tired of the premise that as long as some fans can claim that you're a productive editor, you get a free ride for incivility you'd likely never dare to use were you not safely ensconced behind a computer screen. Either we have civility and NPA rules or we do not. One would think that already being under fire and having been sanctioned for incivility, Mike would have figured he had best keep a civil tongue in his head. From the fellow who has openly admitted, however, that people who contribute a certain amount of edits should thereby win the right to be uncivil , I'm not exactly surprised. Ravenswing 18:37, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
• Good block. Civility is not optional. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. This was way over the WP:NPA line. Tijfo098 (talk) 02:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

It's also flat out wrong. E.g., I looked up the tuberculosis thing, and the article he says it was “copied” from actually sourced it from Misplaced Pages (it even says so at the bottom); it was just moved into a separate Misplaced Pages article on 2011-12-29. In fact, this is when it was first added. He's obviously just fishing. —Kerfuffler  howl
prowl  03:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

As for the Parkinson's quote, there's no question it couldn't have been copied from braincav.edu, because that domain was registered on 2008-09-16, and the quote in substantially the same form appeared on the Misplaced Pages page on 2008-08-22; the first version of that line appearing all the way back on 2002-04-28! In fact, that whole page on braincav.edu seems to have been a very light retouch of the Misplaced Pages page. —Kerfuffler  scratch
sniff  12:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I have officially wasted enough time following up on someone's daydream. —Kerfuffler  scratch
sniff  12:35, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look into this. Always open to analysis of the content I work on. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:59, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I only looked into it because there was an allegation of copyright violation. I think it's clear someone was making **it up. —Kerfuffler  scratch
sniff  13:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose indefinite block, a week seems fine. And strongly oppose revoking user talk page access. Blocked editors are allowed to vent. If you've ever been blocked, you know it can be extremely frustrating. If you haven't, you're probably an administrator (or shooting to be one). -Nathan Johnson (talk) 13:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

If there was any indication that this sort of behavior would not continue I would consider this. Mike is in contact with Anthony and Anthony can let us know. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support block Indefinite isn't permanent, unblock when there is some confidence that he can be civil. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Self-determination

It is clear that discussions about the Falkland Islands at Talk:Self-determination are spiralling out of control, despite the attempts of various parties to intervene. (See WP:RSN#Verification source citations is this WP:OR and WP:SYN and WP:DRN#Self-determination.) Heated discussion about sources and continued edit-warring are ongoing and I have now had to warn one of the editors involved for posting an uncivil message. For the record their reply is here. I fear this is heading for Arbitration unless things cool down and am requesting more eyes on this page. Ben MacDui 12:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

After looking at the edit-warring and signs of tendentiousness in the edits, I would suggest a block against at least Wee Curry Monster (talk · contribs), who I believe has been the most stubborn and the most overtly tendentious of the lot; not quite sure yet about those on the other side. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I would respectfully disagree as a careful analysis of all of Gaba's contributions for the entire year seemed to be directed overwhelmingly at Wee's edits in the Falkland articles with Gaba being the aggressor in this case. Please see: ]Mugginsx (talk) 14:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Please note the past conflict I've had with FPaS and from my knowledge this is the second occasion has proposed sanctions against me. My edits are sourced to reliable sources, giving due weight and the others aren't. I have addressed problems in the article, I've followed WP:DR steps and I've remained civil. I have very little faith in WP:ANI as too often I see posts like the above looking to settle old scores. Thanks. Wee Curry Monster talk 14:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Any objection to Gaba p's edits is labelled by him as WP:OR and WP:SYN, as far as he's concerned that is sufficient for any discussion. In this case, insisting on using a source that made a demonstrably false claim.

I point out that his edit is misleading, thats also WP:OR and WP:SYN.

I point out an edit is contrary to WP:WEIGHT, thats also WP:OR and WP:SYN.

I raised the matter in talk , I started the DRN , I started the RSN discussion . On every occasion I have given a reasoned response to proposals, if Gaba p disagrees - its , its WP:SYN, its a lie , its wikilawyering but he never actually discusses with an aim to reaching agreement. His approach is confrontational and antagonistic to anyone who disagrees ,. He has previously been warned about WP:CIVIL and that he faced a block if he continued. Whilst its just been warnings from several admins but no action he has simply got bolder. User:Langus-TxT who in a RFC at Falkland Islands was warned for POV editing has previously backed up Gaba p in a WP:TAG team to try and force POV changes into articles. User:Langus-TxT did exactly the same with the now indefinitely blocked editor User:Alex79818 who stalked me in real life forcing a change of user name. When User:Gaba p started editing both User:Nick-D and User:JamesBWatson considered there was sufficient reason to consider User:Gaba p yet another sock puppet of the prolific sock puppeteer User:Alex79818. He was only unblocked after providing ID identification and I privately disclosed Alex's real life ID to James (I knew it from the stalking). After being the object of abuse from Gaba and Alex I remain convinced they're one and the same - the edit patterns are identical. And the edit patterns have the hallmark of a sleeper account, registered in 2009 but no edits between 2010 and 2012 and restarting editing immediately after another obvious sock was blocked. WP:DUCK.

You would find it difficult to find a posting where I have been uncivil, despite repeated provocation and I really don't think any editor should have to put up with this level of abuse. He's followed me all over[REDACTED] with the same attitude, I move on to improve another article and there he is. He'll make a whole host of allegations to muddy the waters and avoid sanctions again. Wee Curry Monster talk 14:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

First: I have no idea why Muginsx is attacking me so ferociously, he came out of nowhere a couple of weeks ago to threaten me in my talk page while as far as I can remember we had never crossed paths.

Wee was told by two other editors in addition to me and Langus in the RS/N that he was in fact engaging in WP:OR and WP:SYN in his attempts at removing a properly sourced sentence from an article. The sources I used are the ones directly recommended by those two editors at RS/N.

Yesterday Wee reverted 3 times and edit agreed upon by 3 different editors (Langus, Churn and Change and myself)

A source which we were advised not to use by editors in the same RS/N discussion had to be removed on 3 occasions because Wee kept introducing it back to the article with every rv he made.

I tried several times to come to an agreement with Wee but he is hell-bent on keeping a properly sourced sentence out of WP and there is no middle ground: no matter what sources I or other editors present, he will immediately embark in a crusade to discredit it ("it's an Argentinian source", "it's ambiguous in its claims", "its contradicted by other sources") all based on his own WP:OR.

Wee had me blocked earlier this year accused of being a sock puppet. To this day Wee keeps accusing me of being the same person as Axel after I revealed my true identity to a WP administrator who ended up lifting the life-ban that had been imposed to my account. What else can I possibly do?? I've created two scientific articles about a topic that was missing from WP (Thin disk and Thick disk) and have two more in the same area in the making Nothing will convince him that me and Axel are not the same person and he will keep attacking me on that grounds.

Let me try to put this as simple as I can. This is the sentence Wee is determined to keep out of WP and which sparkled this whole mess:

"Other authors state that the Argentine inhabitants were in fact expelled by the British."

The first source was advised to both of us to be used at the RS/N discussion (anybody can go and check this). The second source says verbatim: "The newly independent state of the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata (Argentina) occupied the Islands in 1816, began their settlement in 1820, established a political and military command there in 1829, but was expelled by Britain in 1833.". Wee contests this source saying that "The comment here is just moving the goalposts". The third one is an article by an author who was also recommended at the RS/N as a trusted source

My addition of this statement backed by those sources to the article was reverted 3 times by Wee yesterday. He routinely behaves as if he WP:OWNED several articles and as if his was the last word on the matter: I don't agree so it doesn't get consensus.

He will accuse me and Langus of WP:TAG teaming because we both agree that the sentence should be present in WP as does a third editor (Churn and Change), who recommended that much at the RS/N.

Wee accuses me of "getting bolder" when it was him who breached the 3RR yesterday by constantly reverting an edit agreed upon by 3 different editors.

"He's followed me all over[REDACTED] with the same attitude, I move on to improve another article and there he is", this is just a petty and untrue accusation. Several articles are related through the Falklands issue and Wee edits in all of them. Please take a look at my history where you will find that 99% of my exchanges with Wee have taken place solely at the Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute article. Aside from that one I have only collaborated in this one (Self-determination) and made two comments in the talk page of the Arana-Southern Treaty article long ago. That is all. Does this really count as me following Wee "all over wikipedia"?? Gaba p (talk) 15:33, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The opposite is true insofar as the "following all over Misplaced Pages" and Gaba's contributions provide the proof as I pointed out above. Gaba would like everyone to feel he is being persecuted when in fact he has been the persecutor and has has the help of User:Langus-TxT to help him at every opportunity - an editor that he knows full well also has a previous history with Wee and a careful review of his contributions ] as well as his talk page remarks on the Falkland articles and his personal talk page and most recently here: ] where he inserts himself into remarks that did not concern him, indicates a clear pattern as a tag-team participant with Gaba, at least to this veteran editor. Mugginsx (talk) 15:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Mugginsx I have no desire of anyone feeling that I'm being persecuted, it's you and Wee who are accusing me of persecuting him. As I said before, if one edits in almost any article related to the Falklands issue (as I have in only two of them) one is bound to come across Wee since he edits in virtually all of them (I restrain from saying literally because I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure it would be hard for anyone to come up with an article in WP about the Falklands that Wee isn't involved in)

Also, I find it funny to say the least how you are currently accusing Langus of not being involved in this current episode and yet here you are. You, who I have never crossed paths before as far as I can remember prior to your out-of-nowhere attack in my talk page (please point me to where we have if I'm mistaken), are right now defending Wee in a matter you were not involved in, in any of its ramifications (ie: the Self-determination article which you didn't edit, RS/N, DR/N, Ben MacDui's talk page, etc...) I have no problem with you defending Wee but, wouldn't you say you're being a tad hypocritical? Gaba p (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Gaba doesn't collaborate, he accuses someone of WP:OR and WP:SYN constantly and does not enter a discussion to find consensus, this is his mechanism to ignore any occasion when someone raises a quite reasonable point in talk. He accuses editors of lying rather than entering a discussion to find consensus. I am not proposing to discuss content at WP:ANI, which is about user behaviour, but there was a good reason given for reverting him and his dismissal as WP:OR and WP:SYN is not a reasonable response. I did not break WP:3RR, I gave an informative summary why I was reverting you and I raised it at WP:RSN, which is the latest place chosen to move the discussion. Unfortunately an editor at RSN forgot WP:BEANS and has given User:Gaba p another idea for disruptive and tendentious editing.

I end up in the classic dilemna faced by many productive editors at[REDACTED] who cares about WP:NPOV, when faced by an editor who won't discuss an edit in talk, who insists on bulldozing material into an article pushing a nationalist agenda of asking myself whether I should revert or not. If you examine User:Gaba p and User:Langus-TxT's edits they're not about improving wikipedia, they're about forcing what they refer to as the Argentine POV into articles. They're just getting more sophisticated about how they go about it.

You won't find me being uncivil to either and the last time this came up at an RFC an editor commented that my edits were fair and meticulously sourced , whilst Langus reverted cited edits without any real rationale. I've been hounded for a year. Virtually every edit I make is being reverted by these two, I have to take every edit round the boards to get 3rd party input. Really its beyond a joke. I can almost predict what will happen here, there'll be a load of tendentious arguments obscuring the real issues, Langus and Gaba will make a lot of unsubstantiated allegations against me and in the end nothing will happen. They'll continue doing makin life unpleasant here until I quit. Its exactly situations like this that is why[REDACTED] is losing productive content editors. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Wee, it is you who doesn't care about consensus. As I have pointed out already you reverted 3 times and edit that was agreed upon by 3 editors because you didn't agree with it.

You keep accusing me of being tendentious while it is you who is trying to keep a thoroughly sourced sentence out of WP by any means necessary. How am I bulldozing an edit that was agreed upon by at least 3 editors Wee? I'd say that it's actually you who are bulldozing said sentence out of WP, based (as was told to you not only by Langus and I but by two other editors at RS/N) in your WP:OR and WP:SYN.

"Virtually every edit I make is being reverted by these two", Wee you know very well the opposite is actually true. In fact, it's the whole reason we are here now: because you reverted 3 times an edit agreed by 3 editors.

I have no desire of Wee being blocked (and of course no desire of being blocked myself), I just need Wee to stop acting like he WP:OWNED those articles he is involved in and accept that every once in a while other editors can and will make contributions to them and, though he may not personally agree with such edits, that is not a valid reason to remove them. Cheers. Gaba p (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Can you two now please stop continuing your fight on this page? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:06, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

As Wee has just said above, this is why good editors get tired and just give up on Misplaced Pages. I can say as a careful observer on the article edit history and the article talk pages that Gaba has been the obstructionist in this case and it seems that sadly, he just will say anthing it seems to keep an argument going. It seems that Misplaced Pages is just a "game" for him. I do not say that lightly. His language and his edits, especially on the Self-determination article, but elsewhere also, seem to indicate that he is not at all interested in the furtherance or the quality of the article, but to just continue the reverts and not discuss substance. I wanted to edit on the article but could see what was happening. It discourages other editor when they see this. It is really too bad, but something needs to be done to convince Gaba that Misplaced Pages is not a video game- the prime directive to outmaneuver and frustrate ones' opponent. I have been here on Misplaced Pages for some time and if there is one thing I have learned early (as most editors do) it is to differentiate the well-intentioned editors from the others. If proof is needed then it is here and in the article pages I have mentioned. Mugginsx (talk) 18:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Mugginsx, your recent vicious attacks at me have me baffled. You are the first editor to accuse me of more wrong-doing that Wee (and that is an amazing feat) What can I say in my defense if you have already uncovered the truth? Clearly this is a game to me, that's why I've put in so many hours trying to improve an article with a sentence that keeps getting reverted by Wee. Surely that's why I fought tooth and nail for over a month to have my account back when I was wrongly accused of being a sock-puppet to the point that I gave away my right to anonymity. Right? One would say that an editor that takes WP as a game would have just let that account die and made another one. But hey, what do I know. I'm just a kid who thinks WP is a video-game. Cheers man.

Fut.Perf. yes, understood. I will only write here again if my input is requested. Cheers. Gaba p (talk) 19:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I have not been told I cannot edit here so I will answer as best I can. I wanted to contribute on that Falkslands related article. I took some time to research with the idea of inserting a constructive paragraph into Self-determination, which perhaps would also go into the sister article. What I saw there were two editors, both of whom have past beefs with editor Wee, tag-teaming him on purpose. How do I know this? Because I have been here a long time and because it is obvious to anyone who looks. I tried to approach you on this and you sent what I took to be a vicious email back to me. That matter has been resolved by an administrator and I will mention no further. The reverts of Wees work were discussed openly and honestly by one editor only, namely Wee. He presented argument with links which I looked up myself and found to be valid in my opinion. They were said to be false links or not good enough or one sided or pro-British or WP:OR anything that you and your team member could think of and the variety of your answers and the complete failure to have a civil conversation about the same edit showed to me that you were not sincere. I found those links with no trouble. Why couldn't you? No, there was something else going on there and perhaps it is really over this perceive injustice you mention, I do not know. You mention that Wee worked on many of the articles, so far as I know that is nothing wrong or new at Misplaced Pages and generally shows a real interest and knowledge in the subject. When working with other good faith editors, it usually makes for excellent articles. Anyway, when I said it looked like you were "Playing games" that is because that, to my mind, is exactly what was and still is happening, only now here on this board. I don't wish you ill will but I do not think you and your friend have been acting in good faith, as a matter of act, I know it. You seem like a very angry editor as does your friend and especially angry at Wee and as you just need to be prepared that other editors have other points of view on an article and if they are well-sourced, which this one was, and do not violate real wiki guidelines, then you have to let them in. Mugginsx (talk) 20:18, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It was earlier suggested by Administrator User:Ben MacDui that some links be provided here which serve to prove the accusations made by Wee, myself, and another editor. Here are some that I found:

See , , . , ,, , . All examples of the same tendentious editing by User:Gaba p. His constantly treats present historical events as just a British claim. Referring to the talk page Wee shows that sources of all nationalities confirm the same series of events, original eye witness accounts of all nationalities agree. He has never produced a source to back this up see WP:DRN#Self-determination, when asked his response is to accuse Wee of WP:OR and WP:SYN and not answer.

An example of a typical response to attempting to engage Gaba in a reasonable discussion. In one response Gaba accuses Wee of using talk page discussions to maintain the status quo, editing because of a dislike of Argentina, claiming all Wee's sources are "pro-British", instead of looking at the sources Wee provides, he simply accuses Wee of deciding what is fact and what is a lie. Mugginsx (talk) 23:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

(Ignoring groundless accusations from an editor I've just have met, and to whom I am suspicious as he claims to know very well my activities in WP)

These edit wars stem from the inability (or unwillingness) of Wee Curry Monster to correctly interpret the advice of knowledgeable editors, together with his "not-give-an-inch" behavior and WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT attitude when he believes he's right (possibly always).

In this particular case, two times uninvolved editors have told WCM to attribute the statements and not incur in original research: this NPOVN thread three months ago, and this recent one at WP:RSN. But, as you can see from the comments in both threads, he just isn't prepared to accept he's wrong.

In the last three reverts by WCM to the article, you can see he's pushing in the source Key to an Enigma, by Oliveri López. If you took the time to read through the last NPOVN thread, you should know that Lopez was recommended to be avoided, but that instead Risman could and should be used. Attitudes like these are the ones that cause an edit war.

Also note that WCM did broke the 3RR rule:
And he nearly did so again yesterday:

An example of WCM fighting till the end an edit backed by the majority can be found here (please note the reactions at subsection Enough when WCM accuses of TAG-TEAMING). This Thatcher issue led to a Mediation Cabal case which, despite the remarkable well-played role of the mediator, ended up in nothing. If you read the article now, the "Leaders" section of the infobox is missing.

Another example of his intransigence: an administrator tells him to be careful with accusations of vandalism, and he merely dismisses his advice.

Finally, I'd like to point out that insinuations of socket-puppetry in discussions like this are completely unacceptable. I've been victim of this harassment by WCM for a year or so, till he finally seemed to stop after a discussion at Wikiquette Assistance (do note how he ends up fighting the volunteer).
Or maybe it was just a coincidence, I don't really know given how he refused to acknowledge the opinions there. --Langus (t) 03:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - I point out sources are in agreement , contentious argument but no reply and simply asserting its a British Claim. Repeat and you have entire talk page discussion. And as Mugginsx shows above the pair of them edit war their own WP:OR and WP:SYN into the article whilst accusing others of the same.

The "thoroughly sourced sentence" is sourced but the language in the source is ambiguous and its being used out of context. Its a classic example of abusing sources to make a point the original author didn't intend to make and they ignore the comment on p.300 in the same source that contradicts it. Relevant quotes are at WP:DRN as well as my attempt to discuss it before they chose to edit war it into the article.

His claim that I broke 3RR is untrue the first edit linked to above is a correction to an untrue statement introduced by Langus. I don't edit war, I tried to follow WP:BRD but that was frustrated by WP:TAG from these two to force a change into the article. I truly believe they were trying to get me to break 3RR to get me blocked.

As regards the NPOVN discussion, I still remain unconvinced. The source they wanted to use made a claim attributing a statement to another author. That author made a completely different statement in line with all of the other sources. WP:COMMON still seems to suggest that is sufficient cause for a discussion about its reliability - but you can't discuss with two editors who constantly accuse of WP:OR and WP:SYN rather than address a concern you raise.

The Medcab case he refers to as an example of my intransigence, I made a post in talk, waited for 2 weeks for a response, having not got one made a WP:BOLD edit, that was reverted out of hand, the editor then posted at WT:MILHIST canvassing other editors to follow him. It was I who started the Medcab and read it, I make comments about content the protagonist in that case makes a lot of allegations but no comment on content. How is it intransigent to follow WP:DR and remains WP:CIVIL?

I did disagree with User:Dennis Brown we had an extensive discussion on his talk page, we agree to disagree. However, given the conversation remained civil neither of us bear any grudge about it. Please ask him - and btw this is the second time Langus has tried to make more of our discussion than it was, we all disagree from time to time but a frank (but civil) exchange of views is healthy.

As regards the comments about sock puppets. Falklands articles have been plagued by a prolific sock puppeteer. The profile of many of these is an account registered between 2007 and 2009 that doesn't edit for years, then embarks on edit wars to insert the Argentine POV. Langus' editing and Gaba p's editing fit the same profile.

Like I said I expected a load of frivolous allegations to obscure the central issue, which is that Langus and Gaba will edit war to force what they describe as the Argentine POV into articles and what they refer to as the truth from the Argentine perspective into articles. They've followed me to multiple articles and have plagued my edits. Enough is enough. They can't accept that NPOV is about presenting the weight of opinion in the literature and the British and Argentine positions from a neutral perspective. Wee Curry Monster talk 07:56, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

This discussion has now become a mirror image of the edit summaries and talk pages of the articles mentioned here. Wee and I provide links and Gaba and Langus still refuse to discuss CONTENT. Now instead Gaba, is accusing me of having some "special knowledge of his activities", (who does he think I am, Jimbo Wales assistant?. ) Langus, (his relentless assistant), also with the underlying motive of revenge for WeeCurryMonster, have also continued to use and pervert the guidelines and rules of Misplaced Pages to obstruct and frustrate this discussion just as they both did on the Misplaced Pages article detailed here - using misrepresentations, Misplaced Pages:Tag team and innuendo. I repeat the obvious intention is to frustrate and pervert the well-intended process here and ultimately to make a fool of the all of the editors and administrators who volunteer their time trying to work toward an honest solution. The proof has been abundantly provided here. There are volumes more at the article(s) talk page.

Langus even had the audacity to interject snide comments on another page into a finished discussion that I had with an administrator over something that did not in anyway concern him! It was not until the administrator came back to comment, that he slithered away and has now finally come here to turn and twist the truth in the same way and manner he thinks he is so skilled at - under the apparent delusion that he is cleverer and smarter that everyone here, including the administrators! Langus, for your information it was Gaba who was the first one to bring up the sockpuppetry accusations not anyone else. Just another intentional misrepresentation. Langus, instead of being clever here, your are sadly acting like the most common form of a Misplaced Pages troublemarker. Unfortunately, we have more then our share of those and do not need anymore. This is turning into one of the worst examples of editors’ misconduct I have ever personally seen on Misplaced Pages and to allow them to get away with it is to laugh in the face of every well-intentioned volunteer and administrator here and at Misplaced Pages as a whole. The proof is abundantly clear and I think it is time to shut this sham of a discussion down and sanction these two editors Gaba and Langus to send a message that Misplaced Pages editors and administrators are tired of Misplaced Pages:Tag teameditors who waste everyone's time and make serious and productive editors want to give up and leave Misplaced Pages. In my opinion, further discussion is pointless but a sanction on these two editors made just work and avoid further escalation and further waste of everyone's time. In my experience, it is the only things that does work.

• I respectfully move to close this discussion with a request for sanctions against especially User:Langus-TxT who does not even respect the decision of administrators, ] for obvious Tag Teaming and Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing and User:Gaba p who has spent one year obstructing and reverting Wee's Reliable Sources ] even after they were verified at ] and not acting in good faith. This will hopefully put a stop to abuse and finally to allow the the hard-working and serious editors and the administrators here to go back to the usually joyful work of creating and/or improving Misplaced Pages articles and working with good faith editors. Mugginsx (talk) 10:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

  For heaven's sake, Muggins, can you please stop fiddling with your own postings for ours on end? You've now edited your own posting like, how many times, twenty? What I'm seeing here is walls of text, and maybe you should start asking yourself whether the fact that this thread has been drawing next to no outside participation from uninvolved editors might be related to your own behaviour here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I have been busy adding links to my last paragraph to show the abuse links which did unfortunately take some more doing then I expected. I have not re-factored any previous paragraphs. I will certain defer to your request. The walls of text, I am not sure what you mean. I was requested by an administrator to add Links and I complied. Sorry, if it caused any problems. I like to be exact and may have been overenthusiastic in that pursuit. Apologies Mugginsx (talk) 14:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

FutPer, you were pretty quick to insert - as an editor with some strong interactions with WCM in the past - your opinion for a block on him alone. From all of this it is rather clear you were very wrong as to the uniqueness of WCM in this, I hope we can now see a recognition of your error? WCM's failure is that he is happy to fight on his own like a dog in a corner for what he feels is right against what he perceives are agenda pushers. It has its draw backs, and at times he drifts over the line, but your perptual blindness to the actions others take in situation around him is baffling. --Narson ~ Talk • 10:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The almost instant call for a block on Wee by Adm. Fut. who has a prior history with him did take me by surprise as well. I had never seen that before. Now there are two editors and one administrator involved in this dispute with a unrelated negative past history with Wee. Probably a good reason to recuse oneself if only for the avoidance of the appearance of impropriety. Mugginsx (talk) 12:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The above accusations are numerous and not straightforward to unravel. No-one involved should think they are immune to criticism. Here are a few questions for some of the individuals concerned. They are not the only ones that arise by any means and my second one, for example, might well be asked of more than one editor.

1. WCM, you remain convinced that Gaba p and indef blocked User:Alex79818 are one and the same. The history of Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Alex79818/Archive is certainly a disturbing one and there are some similarities. For example, it seems an extraordinary coincidence that Gaba p began editing at Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute after a two year absence at the time User:Abenyosef was reported as a suspected sock of Alex79818. However, I am puzzled as to why you think they are one and the same given that Gaba p seems to have provided a real-life identity that is not the same as that of Alex79818. This is a serious accusation - but how do you justify it beyond assertions about WP:DUCK?

2. Assuming WCM is wrong in this assertion, the accusations nonetheless draw attention to similar behaviours even if they are being carried out by different persons. Mugginsx reminds us of the unhappy truth that disruptive behaviour "is why good editors get tired and just give up on Misplaced Pages". Gaba p, your inability to see anything disruptive in your approach, your disregard for WP:CIVIL and your ongoing edit warring give cause for concern. There isn't much that I have seen at Self-determination that suggests your input is improving the article and it must surely be off-putting to editors who do not share your enthusiasms. Do you think the encyclopedia would be harmed if you were given a topic ban on Falklands related articles, and if so, why?

3. Langus-TxT - you have been accused of operating as a tag team with both Alex79818 and Gaba p. Perhaps I missed a response in all the verbiage. What do you have to say about this?

Finally, we can all see that this situation has created ill-feeling that has been going on for too long, but it is in no-one's interests to issue threats. Please try to remain civil with one another. Please also try to keep your responses on-topic and as brief as possible. Sometimes less is more. Ben MacDui 15:41, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

From WP:TAG_TEAM: "Tag teaming (sometimes also called a "Travelling Circus") is a debatably form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus."

I have never done such a thing. My opinions tend to agree with those of other Argentine editors, and I have interest on the Falklands topic (as does Gaba p, Wee Curry Monster, and others), but that's it. I honestly don't remember too much about Alex, he was blocked shortly after I started to edit regularly, about 1,5 years ago. But I can assure that a) I am not him (and by now every editor in the Falklands articles know this, except perhaps WCM); and b) I never worked as a team with him, even if I may have supported a particular edit. The same goes to Gaba p.

Honestly, I've stopped responding to WCM's accusations of tag-teaming, and I think it's the best thing I can do. --Langus (t) 17:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I also accused him Ben and I do not take that back. The evidence is overwhelming. I think the best thing is an article ban for the tag team. Sorry, I am always ready to forgive after an honest apology because we all make mistakes, but there in no repentance here, just more denial. Mugginsx (talk) 19:26, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Mr Macdui, no there is more to it than that. I'll email you some more information that I can't reveal here. User:Nick-D considered the style was so similar he blocked Gaba straight away. User:JamesBWatson also considered the style so similar he considered not unblocking, despite the ID information. Stylistically they're identical eg note the long tendentious repeating argument, the remarks directed toward me and the groundless accusation of POV editing, accusations of WP:OR etc, compare with the comments by Gaba at Talk:Self-determination, the habit of using bold text to highlight. Not to mention the use of source with a heavy POV slant. I could indicate more but per WP:BEANS its probably not a good idea. Take a gander at both contribution histories and you'll see what I mean. If you'd been harassed by Alex since 2007 you'd readily recognise the style.

As regards Langus, his remark above speaks volumes though I would imagine he still doesn't get it, specifically My opinions tend to agree with those of other Argentine editors, so he'll revert war in concert with other editors he agrees with to force those opinions into articles. We don't edit in line with our personal opinions, we put that aside to reflect what out sources say. Unfortunately Langus and Gaba select sources to support the edit they wish to make. He is constantly referring to having the Argentine POV represented, basically he doesn't understand NPOV on wikipedia. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

WCM actually knows Alex real life identity. That's why the ban was lifted after I gave away my right to anonymity, because the admin could check that we in fact were not the same person. I also point to the two small but highly scientific articles I've created so far (Thin disk and Thick disk) Did Axel ever do anything like that? Because that would be too much coincidence. I have a scientific training in physics and astronomy which I'm willing to put to the test anytime (I can't believe I'm still being called out to prove I'm not that editor...)

Ben, you seem to be taking sides assuming Wee is the good editor (prolific doesn't mean balanced) and I am the disruptive editor here. Just to remind us all why we are here: WCM reverted 3 times an edit agreed upon by 3 editors which he still denies. Yet you accuse me of "ongoing edit warring" and of "inability to see anything disruptive in your approach"??

Some context on the "disregard for WP:CIVIL" accusation. Editor Muggins and I had never crossed paths until he left this message on my talk page (note the tone) I responded here. He then proceeded to accuse me, out of the blue, of lots of things and to ask Ben for a ban on me. This is the response to that comment which Ben refers to as uncivil from my part (please do read it) Ben deleted that comment (but not Muggins comment) and I acknowledged that such comment could be taken as an offense by some editor. Please also read this bizarre attack from Muggins (in hidden section) where he calls me sleezy. Ben does not consider this as uncivil apparently.

Ben, you haven't seen much because there isn't really much to see. This whole mess can be traced to the sentence: "Other authors state that the Argentine inhabitants were in fact expelled by the British", which is basically what WCM reverted 3 times. It's a minor edit in it's extension but a very important one because it presents the view of several authors contrary to the view that supports the British claim (which is already present in the article) Yes, I do believe WP would be harmed because WCM would never approve (yes, approve because WCM behaves as if he WP:OWNED Falklands-related articles) the inclusion of counter-sources for the British claim (as he still is attempting to do, given that the article has a NPOV template) without an editor willing to go through all this trouble. Gaba p (talk) 21:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Persistent incivility, personal attacks, violations of talk page guidelines by Fowler&fowler

Re: Fowler&fowler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Fowler&fowler has been persistently violating talk page guidelines, with uncivil behavior and personal attacks. Repeated request to Fowler&fowler to stop uncivil behavior have so far failed.

. On September 20th, I made specific suggestions to improve the article Caste on its talk page: Ex1 - per talk page and RfC guidelines. My suggestions were:

1. Summarize all sides of significant and mainstream scholarly literature.

2. Casual use of word caste by any published source, once or twice, is an unacceptable basis to include that source in this article.

3. We will consider the following as adequate basis to consider including a mention or summary in this article: multiple secondary sources discuss caste in a country / region / culture, and one or more reliable tertiary source include this mention.

4. Substantive discussion of caste in a society by multiple secondary sources, in sociology/anthropology/cultural and similar scholarly fields, suggest such sources will be considered for inclusion in this article.

5. Scholarly published secondary and tertiary literature from around the world, on caste, are acceptable and welcome.

Fowler&fowler’s replied with a personal attack, which took the following form: ‘As Fifelfoo has said, you don’t have competence to write this article.’ See Ex2. A review of the discussion proves, Fifelfoo criticized the article, but did not attack any[REDACTED] user with those words. See this comments section. Fowler&fowler misquoted and misrepresented another wiki user, to launch a personal attack.

Mitigating factors: In fairness to Fowler&fowler, I note that this September 21 morning, after I noted that I will seek[REDACTED] admin help to address the personal attack on September 20, Fowler&fowler voluntarily acknowledged and struck out the personal attack he made a day ago Ex7. Similarly, in fairness, along with personal attacks, Fowler&fowler has also welcomed my contributions and made constructive proposals recently with suggestions such as

‘user:ApostleVonColorado should rewrite 3. and 4.’ - Fowler&fowler, 20:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

See Ex8. I assume from this that Fowler&fowler is capable of respecting and welcoming constructive contributions from other wiki users such as me. These mitigating corrective actions and constructive suggestions are offset by the unrelenting, counter-productive attacks and uncivil behavior from Fowler&fowler. See below.

. The uncivil behavior by Fowler&fowler is not limited to one instance. It is repetitive and persistent. See for example Ex3 with this cleaner version where he impersonated me, and see Ex4, as two examples. Fowler&fowler persistent attacks and violation of talk page guidelines are of concern because this triggers counter-productive responses from other users. I am concerned because both talk page guidelines and RfC guidelines remind us that our goal should be to improve the article, discuss suggestions for the article, build consensus, assume good faith and welcome input from all users to help improve the article. Systematic abuse of talk page guidelines discourages me and other potential users from participating with constructive contributions.

. The attacks by Fowler&fowler are not limited to one user. On September 17th, Fowler&fowler attacked a new wiki User:Hoshigaki, someone who has been contributing well researched, constructive, through and a detailed response to an RfC, currently in progress on Talk:Caste. Fowler&fowler wrote,

‘Hoshigaki, You are doing this again. I have serious concerns about your level of competence in the English language. I feel your comprehension skills are poor at best.’

See Ex5. Once again, such personal attacks are an unacceptable behavior.

The incivility and violations of talk page guidelines are not limited to talk page of one article, Talk:Caste. It extends to Talk:India. For example, Fowler&fowler had used the talk page of India as a forum with comments, irrelevant to improving the article, such as,

‘....casts its one vote, half to Mrt3366 and other half to RegentsPark as the next President of Misplaced Pages. Let's throw that Jimbo guy out. I will now be going down to the bar to order a Vodka Martini.’ - Fowler&fowler, 14:30, 6 September 2012

See Ex6. That is an irrelevant, frivolous and disruptive forum-like comment on an article's talk page.

. In summary, Fowler&fowler has persistently violated the following talk page guidelines:

1. Personal attacks
2. Misrepresenting another user
3. Impersonating me and creating a section ‘Comment by ApostleVonColorado’ without my permission or knowledge
4. Using the talk page as forum

I request an appropriate review of the facts, followed by appropriate action to address unacceptable behavior by user Fowler&fowler.

Please note that this request is about a user conduct. It is not a commentary, nor is it a content dispute about the article Caste or any other. Others and I have already acknowledged and agreed that the article needs rework, has serious flaws, some sections need to be removed, some rewritten and that the article can be significantly improved. Polite and article-focussed discussion, not personal attacks, is a way to rapidly improving the article. Above all, any[REDACTED] article regardless of how good or poorly written it is, gives no one the right to be uncivil and to repeatedly personally attack other[REDACTED] users. No one has the right to harass and attack others regardless of whether they are a new user or have many years of experience on wikipedia. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 17:57, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I haven't finished looking over all of this, but as a note to the humor-impaired; Example 6 is what's known as a joke. It plays upon the tropes of hyperbole and facetiousness. I'll finish looking over this, but it seems obvious to me that was meant as a deliberately hyperbolic comment. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler has been doing his level best to handle a group of tendentious filibusterers, of which you are one. In particular, dealing with your insistent TLDR essays is an absolute frustration, and not just for him. I've very nearly blown up on a couple of occasions when discussing things with you and the others on article talk pages, so it is no surprise to me if someone else actually has done so. As long as you continue in your ways, I think that you'll have to roll with the consequences - it is not a one-way street. - Sitush (talk) 18:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, now I'm finished with this. ApostleVonColorado, a couple of your examples above aren't the best from Fowler&fowler, but I'm not so much inclined to sanction him for saying them as much as express amazement at how long it took to get to that point. I'm thinking now about instituting a topic ban for you under the discretionary sanctions in place, I'll come back to this in a couple hours so I don't make a knee-jerk decision. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:10, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

This is not the first time that Fowler has breached civility on Misplaced Pages, there were more than two editors who were discussing on the talk page but I am sure there are more than two editors who felt that Fowler had crossed the limits. It is not at all surprising to see Sitush making such a comment but what is more surprising is The Blade of the Northern Lights saying a couple of your examples above aren't the best from Fowler&fowler, but I'm not so much inclined to sanction him for saying them --sarvajna (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Why is my comment "not at all surprising"? - Sitush (talk) 18:25, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, like The Blade said, the examples don't show me in a good light. Example 6 was indeed a joke. I was mimicking the states' roll call at the Democratic National Convention. Example 2 is not entirely accurate. I myself realized that my response was too hot-headed and before anyone replied to my post, changed it in this post. I still seem to remember that Fifelfoo had used the word "competence," but when I went back to look at his statement, I couldn't find it. In any case, he had made a pretty damning evaluation of AVC's contributions to the Caste article. As for Hoshigaki, here is the deal. Two new users appeared in the RfC. They had joined WP a few days earlier. Predictably they both opposed me. They are Hoshigaki (talk · contribs) and OrangesRYellow (talk · contribs). Hoshigaki in particular, kept misinterpreting my words, "India is central to the topic of Caste" to mean "Caste is central to the topic of India," he also kept misinterpreting the adjective "central" to mean "unique." So, he repeatedly replied "Cast is not unique to India or Hinduism" or "Caste is not the central social topic in India today." When this happened the third or the fourth time, I became frustrated and replied in the post AVC has cited above. The problem as I see it is simple. The major tertiary sources are unanimous in stating that India is central to any discussion of caste. The major tertiary sources spend 75 to 100% of their content discussing India. Yet we have a Misplaced Pages article which (especially after AVC's edits in Feb and March this year) spends 80% of its content discussing caste in Europe, Latin America, Africa, East Asia, .... It has sections, "Caste in Finland, " "Caste in Sweden," "Caste in England," "Caste in Ireland," ... Although AVC is always polite, and never fails to cite WP policy on polite behavior, he nonetheless subtly subverts the RfC process by writing vague, general, essay-length responses, which are difficult to respond to. He produced some tertiary sources of his own to support the extra-India emphasis in the article. The first one had a general sounding abstract. The abstract was all that was available on the web (unless of course you had access or subscription). I managed to get the pdf of the article. It was written by the Indian sociologist Veena Das. Despite its general abstract, it turned out to be entirely about India. I suspected then (and still do) that AVC looked at the abstract and thought it would support his POV, but didn't read the rest of the article. When I said so to him, he became upset. But the question still remains: if your first tertiary source is entirely about India, how are you writing an article 80% of which is not about India? The more long-term background to the Caste or caste-related articles is that it has been the stomping ground of nationalists. In fact it no coincidence that the second most prolific contributor to Caste system in India and Caste articles (after AVC) is none other than Hkelkar (talk · contribs) the notorious Hindu nationalist sock master. One of the favorite tacks of the nationalists when editing articles about India's perceived social ills (not just Caste, but also Bride burning, Dowry etc. is to universalize them; in other words, to have little sections on Pakistan, Nepal, .... and to mention India casually as just one among the crowd. Whether this is AVC's motivation or not, his edits have certainly served that purpose. He had made similar edits to Culture of India, where "caste" etc have been swept under "Perceptions of India." Anyway, I have to take our cat to the vet. So this all I have to say. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

PS. I've got to get this in too: most of the abstract discussion of caste has taken place historically around the paradigmatic example of Hindu India. All the great theorists of Caste, Max Weber, Emile Senart (Les Castes dans L'Inde, 1894), Célestin Bouglé (1927), Georges Dumézil, G. S. Ghurye, Edmund Leach, M. N. Srinivas, F. G. Bailey, Louis Dumont, J. C. Heesterman, Ronald Inden, Stanley Tambiah, McKim Marriott, R. S. Khare, Veena Das, Jonathan Parry, Andre Beteille, T. N. Madan, Richard Burghart, and others have theorized in the context of Hinduism and India. Even the one anthropologist, Gerald Berreman, who during the 50s, 60s, and early 70s advocated the comparative approach to caste, for which he has been cited a dozen times in the Caste article, has spent most of his lifetime working on India. It is that sort of history this article is flying in the face of. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:26, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. And it is interesting that sarvajna has been contributing both to the discussion there and here, given their past support for such notorious characters as MangoWong (talk · contribs), Zuggernaut (talk · contribs) and Yogesh Khandke (talk · contribs), all of whom have favoured a revisionist, nationalist Hindutva depiction of Indian society and history. Sarvajna does more good than those people, but the presence actually reinforces Fowler's analysis. - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

(multi ec) As Sitush says, Fowler has been dealing more or less single handedly with long tendentious posts on the article in question and, in my opinion, has been doing this patently and above and beyond the call of duty. If he's blown up a couple of times, it is worth looking at the many other times that he hasn't blown up and to look at his willingness to compromise, even when he doesn't necessarily agree with the outcome. AVC would be better served if he/she took a good, long hard at his own editing style, one that is exemplified by the long and tedious complaint above. Topic banning AVC would be an ideal way to implement the discretionary sanctions recently placed on India related articles. --regentspark (comment) 19:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I think a 6 month ban on AVC from Caste and the associated discussions would be perfect. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

That would probably require extension to related articles, eg: Caste in India. - Sitush (talk) 19:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

That, in my view, would be a good resolution, but then I'm not exactly a disinterested party. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

It's too much stuff for me to look at in detail, but AVC's support of User:Hoshigaki clearly put him in the (in)famous guy's enablers camp. Although AVC himself is quite polite, the good cop/bad cop routine can wear down many good people. So AVC & friends need to give the area a break. Or be given one. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

On second thought, anything we apply to AVC should also be applied to Hoshigaki; barring objections, I'll implement them tomorrow. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I haven't looked at Hoshigaki at all, but as far as the rest of the discussion goes, while the major problem is at Caste, it is not restricted to the article, but rather to the topic, so any discretionary sanctions will need to cover the topic area and not just the one article in question. This is covered by both the community imposed sanctions (WP:GS/Caste) and the India related arbcom sanctions. —SpacemanSpiff 03:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Blade of Northern Lights - What is my crime? Look at my contribution history (or talk to Fiflefoo) and you will find I have only brought scholarly sources to the discussion which weaken Fowler's centrality argument. Fowler was deliberately attacking my English skills because reliable sources brought by me clearly indicated that centrality of caste to India can be intrepeted either way. Exact quote provided by me:

From another source cited by Fowler (Berreman, Gerald D. (2008), Caste, International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences):

Among social scientists, and especially among those who have worked in India, there are basically two views: (1) that the caste system is to be defined in terms of its Hindu attributes and rationale and, therefore, is unique to India or at least to south Asia; (2) that the caste system is to be defined in terms of structural features which are found not only in Hindu India but in a number of other societies as well. Those who hold the latter view find caste groups in such widely scattered areas as the Arabian Peninsula, Polynesia, north Africa, east Africa, Guatemala, Japan, aboriginal North America, and the contemporary United States. Either of these positions is tenable; which is preferable depends upon one’s interests and purposes.

Anyway if you decide to ban me for 6 months, go ahead, I have no interest in editing Misplaced Pages if this is how it works. Hoshigaki (talk) 04:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

@Hoshigaki, Please don't cite incorrectly. The Berreman article is from the 1968 edition of that encyclopedia. I have said both in my list (see reference 16) and at least once in conversation with you that that reference has been superseded by the 2008 edition of the encyclopedia in which the article on "Caste" is written by someone else and devotes 80% of its content to India. Berreman represented a trend current in the 1950s and 60s; even then it was a minority opinion. It has long been discarded by anthropologists. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Wow, I give up. My crime is to have gone through all accessible sources presented by Fowler in support of his argument (such as the above source) and pointed out internal contradictions in them. When I succeeded with that, Fowler now wants to discard the source. He or she originally used this source as one from 2008 (and thus acceptable since it was from within the last 25 years - a time limit set by Fowler himself unilaterally). This is deceitful behavior. I have never seen such treachery. Hoshigaki (talk) 04:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Well please read the article "caste" in the 2008 edition (my reference 7) How much space does it devote to India? And how much to other countries? And the first of those is just caste practices of the Indian indentured laborer immigrants in the West Indies. Here is what it says about Berreman (the author of the 1968 article): "... purely on the grounds of universal practices of discrimination based on ascription, scholars such as Gerald Berreman (1960; 1972) have attempted to compare American blacks to untouchable castes in India. However, the black-white dichotomous system in the United States differs from the fourfold caste system in India in that it is ordained not by religious considerations, but by economic and social ones (Cox 1948)." Anyway, I have to go to bed now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If you have never seen such treachery, perhaps a perusal of Idi Amin, Ne Win, or Than Shwe will give you some perspective. I'm only saying what the most beneficial solution is. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

No, never met them. I guess I am lucky to be surrounded by very civilized people. And I don't want to change that. Go ahead block or ban me if you think that is in the greater good per your common sense. And don't expect a reply from me. Hoshigaki (talk) 05:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

He or she originally used this source as one from 2008 (and thus acceptable since it was from within the last 25 years - a time limit set by Fowler himself unilaterally). I just noticed this. It is patently false. I have never said that the Berreman article was written in 2008. I say explicitly in reference 16 in the list that it is "dated" and from 1968 and has been superseded by the 2008 edition (which is reference 7 in my list). The 2008 edition is not only not written by Berreman, but also disagrees with him as the quote above showed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler is doing an excellent job here by deviating the whole topic, this is not a page to discuss the contents. Unfortunately Hoshigaki has fallen into the trap. What are the others like Sitush and RP doing? They are just blindly backing Fowler and infact proposing a topic ban on AVC. What was the crime? Did he break any policy? Was he warned before imposing sanctions on him? It would be blatant misuse of the administrative tools to impose a ban without a proper reason. The only reason I see is that he pointed out the uncivil behavior of an experienced editor. Sitush, stop being dishonest I don’t even know who MangoWong or Zuggernaut are, I only know Yogesh Khandke and have you tried to inform Yogesh and others that you are unnecessarily dragging them into this? --sarvajna (talk) 07:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• Mr Fowler&fowler has left no stone unturned to get me blocked. Fowler has put forward two arbitrary and — I must say — incongruous "protocols" on Talk:India, Talk:caste. I told others we should not make it any more complicated and time-consuming than it already is.

  Now as it seems (I may be wrong though), it's one of fowler's many fortes (e.g. stonewalling, creating confusion, obfuscating, needlessly complicating things). That is what he has done in WP:DRN (which failed as you may know), Talk:India (see archive no 37 if you missed some), at least one RfC and whatever article or page he has edited lately. If he is not a quintessential example of an inveterate filibusterer, then I don't know what filibustering is. Yet, he has the nerve to claim I am having hard time growing up that as though he knows my age. He randomly calls people's dissenting opinions "Hindu nationalist garbage", "upper caste POV", "nonsense", etc. He acts like he owns[REDACTED] articles e.g. India. Just see my talk page. He first and then Sitush, threatened me on my talk page, "you will soon be gone, whether forcibly or voluntarily." (because I am supposedly continuing combative high jinks) isn't that a gross violation of WP:TALKNO?? He obliquely discouraged me from editing India, Caste where he supposedly has his rule. When I tried to bring our wiki-interaction to normalcy, he called me "an obsessively tendentious editor". There is more, I don't have time and the patience to explain every facet of his problematic character. This editor is utterly disruptive. He has this innate knack of turning any discussion in a stale quagmire. Mr T 08:46, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

As an uninvolved ordinary editor who only came across the Talk:Caste discussion (or the users under discussion) today, I agree with Regentspark that Fowler&Fowler has taken an exemplary approach of keeping focused on article improvement, only blowing up with a somewhat ill-advised tone after a long period of remarkably patronising treatment from AVC among others. AVC's behaviour should be of greater concern. AVC seems to respond to content disagreement by telling the other user to be civil, follow talkpage guidelines, etc. I stumbled across AVC via this discussion from February in which AVC reacts to respectfully-expressed content disagreement by warning the new user not to make personal comments, to stay on topic etc., citing policies in an unconstructive, patronising and intimidating way. The recent & ongoing Talk:Caste discussion shows a lot of the same pattern. It, and the encyclopedia as a whole, would be best served if a strong message is sent to AVC to alter this behaviour. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, even I am ready to share some of the blame for the mess that was created (mostly by Fowler's obduracy), in stark contrast to the behavior of Fowler, AVC's conduct has been exemplary. He is a fair and reasonable guy. Don't pin it onto him. His comments here were very, very reasonable. Fowler has experience and it gives him a leverage over other less-experienced editors but that leverage is getting abused can't you see?

  Fowler being an experienced editor, doesn't bother to assume good faith, he demeans opponents while berating their views at the time of a discord. He abused his rollback rights in a content dispute and then instead of admitting his faults, he snubs the privilege itself by saying, "Please remove it. I'm unlikely to go about cleaning spam etc anyway". That's no concern to you? I am flabbergasted. Mr T 14:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• AVC made major changes to the Caste article between mid February and early March this year, doubling the size of article. In the six months since, he has walled out other contributions by politely reverting them and answering on the talk page in essay-length vague generalities. If you disagree find one significant contribution made by someone else in the last six months. The end result, regardless, is that we have an article Caste, the WP flagship article on all caste-related content that devotes 80% of its content to Caste outside South Asia. I believe a topic ban for AVC is the only solution to this impasse. Not only has he made the Misplaced Pages article on Caste singular in such overwhelming bias among all major tertiary sources, but he has also kept others out for six months, effectively topic banning them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:36, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• Let me dispel few of the myths being propagated here. AVC's edits have improved the Caste article greatly. This is how the article looked before AVC started editing. The article is much better written and referenced now. AVC's edits did not cause the article to exceed article size limits particularly for a complex concept like caste. The article is double in size now, so? AVC did not stop anyone from editing the article. In fact, he partially accepted Fowler's changes and completely accepted others. AVC's essay length responses are quite easy to read and he has shortened them after repeated personal attacks. To say that he has effectively topic banned other editors would be a hyperbole, if not a blatant lie. Let anyone asserting that AVC has stopped them from editing on Caste come out with diffs to their edits, which were otherwise uncontroversial, but were not allowed into the article with "walls of text". Correct Knowledge 15:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• This, the new version is better than this, the old? Which major tertiary source is closer both in content and emphasis of content to the new version than the old? And what is this edit? Has any scholarly source called Andre Beteille's widely-used definition of caste, quoted verbatim in the Oxford Dictionary of Sociology, a "Tanjore village-focused study?" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• The balance of the article is currently being discussed at the talk page and there is, IMO, a consensus that India needs to be better represented in the article. Other than this, the newer version is much better than the old. Just look at the referencing. The edit you refer to is controversial and started the discussion on talk page. So, it cannot be included as an attempted obfuscation by AVC. Again, there is little evidence to support a ludicrous topic ban for the editor who contributed so much to the article. That is all my I am trying to say, AVC is free to defend his comment on Andre Beteille. Correct Knowledge 16:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid AVC and I have agreed on nothing. Piotrus (a professional sociologist) made a proposal regarding distribution of article space. It said: 45% to definitions, paradigms, review of literature; 30% to Hinduism within India (the spawning ground of caste), 10% to Caste-like stratification found among Hindu converts to Islam and Christianity in South Asia; to Sikhs and Buddhists, and 15% to Caste-like stratification outside South Asia. AVC has never agreed to it. Instead he has himself made new vague and general proposals, mainly to deflect the argument, as in attempting to rope in Piotrus by citing the latter's FAs, all the while remaining resistant to expanding the India section, by again appealing vaguely to Piotrus's articles. There are other major disagreements. The 45% related to definitions, paradigms, and review of literature is founded on and rests on the model of India. All the great theorists of caste I have listed above, have theorized around that paradigmatic model. That section cannot be littered with irrelevant examples of caste in Finland and Sweden. No theorist of caste has made Sweden or Finland their lifework. AVC has not even remotely agreed to that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you compare the older version of article before AVC started improving and after AVC made substantial changes? All that said I still feel that there is nothing much to discuss about AVC's behavior but there are serious concerns about Fowler's behavior. Being uncivil is a kind of his trademark. --sarvajna (talk) 16:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Those are exactly what I have compared. Find me one major tertiary source, I repeat, that is closer in emphasis of content to the new present version than the old version. AVC's edits have made Misplaced Pages stands out like a cuckoo-bird among the wise owls. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler I think I was not clear, let me try to make it more clear. I am not saying that the newer version is bad, you keep saying that the article was previously edited by a Hindu Nationalist POV pusher This is one of your style of labeling anyone who oppose your edits as Hindu Nationalist, POV pusher Now did AVC make the article more worse when compared to the other editor's version? --sarvajna (talk) 16:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

This is not going anywhere, Fowler has made his position quite clear; the only counter argument being presented here is that Fowler is incivil etc, and RP has addressed that above. This is getting increasingly tendentious as you appear to either not listen to or comprehend the arguments being presented, both of which are problematic; this isn't the first time either (and Sitush was right in calling you out earlier), you keep parroting this theory of "explain it to me" to a level that's beyond belief. —SpacemanSpiff 16:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I do not feel any need to reply to your comment, I have already replied to Sitush Only if you have cared to read it --sarvajna (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Forgot to mention I don't think Fowler has given any clarification about his uncivil behavior --sarvajna (talk) 19:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

This is the diff to the comment where all the four of us (F&F, AVC, Mrt and me) agreed to reduce the section on Europe. In fact, my impression of the discussion was that all of us had a consensus on giving India more prominence in the article and reducing other sections to "caste in continent" rather than "caste in country", even if there was a disagreement on the means of doing so. I do not agree with exact percentages to the sections either. I'll give a detailed reply with objections and suggestions on the talk page later (apologies for delaying this, I am hard pressed for time). Speculating on AVC's intentions ("attempting to rope in Piotrus by citing the latter's FAs" etc.) is pointless. Asking for a topic ban for the same is equally so. As for the tertiary sources, everyone agrees that India is the paradigmatic example of caste. Although the centrality might still be disputed (see this summary). I will try to provide diffs to my claims of consensus though it might be easier for others involved to substantiate my claims in their comments here. Finally, discussing content here diverts from the main issues: 1) Incivility by Fowler&fowler 2) Obfuscation(?) by AVC. I have not commented on 1 and 2 is simply absurd. Correct Knowledge 17:23, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

@CK. You have exaggerated, I'm afraid. You quoted only part of a now-closed discussion, the early part. You forgot to add, that after Ninthbout's post, I wrote:

 :::I more or less agree with you. However, if the content here belongs to Social stratification in East Asia and Social stratification in Europe, then why has it been added to Caste (and not to Social Stratification)? One of my motivations for recommending the creation of the Caste in Europe and Caste in East Asia articles is that in the inevitable AfD discussions that will follow, we are more likely to get a wider community resolution of this conundrum than in an RfC (or DR) here. This article, though important, has been languishing by itself for some time now, and that explains why individual editors have been able to slant it in this fashion. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

@Sarvagna: There are similarities between the transformations wrought in the article by banned Hindu-nationalist editor User:Hkelkar and his socks user:Shiva's Trident, and user:Rumpelstiltskin223 in 2006–2007 and that wrought by AVC in February-March 2012. (And I'm by no means suggesting that one is the other.) At the end of July 2006, just before Hkelkar and his socks edited the article, here is what it looked like. Notice the relative weight; notice India's mention in the first sentence. Here is the wild article it became in late January 2007 as a result of the work of user:Hkelkar and his socks. Notice the de-emphasis on India and Hinduism. Similarly, the article before AVC edited it looked like this. Notice the emphasis on India and limited emphasis on the rest of the world. Notice also the the wild version it became after AVC was done with it. In each transformation, the relative article space devoted to other countries has increased wildly. Yes, the old version of January 2012 is much better in terms of balance and emphasis than the new version. It needs a few citations, but that can be easily fixed in a few hours at most. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

PS I'm now done with this. AVC's defenders, the same people who have sided with him in the tortuous RfC, are presenting the same tired incorrect arguments. I see nothing new from them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

It is sad that this discussion became focussed on content, not conduct. I find it offensive that I am being casually compared to socks from past, who admins can trace and check IP addresses of, and confirm I have nothing to do with old edits (and which will also show I am not from India).

The version Fowler&fowler cites from 2007 has 30 citations (poor quality), while the current article has over 160 (peer reviewed journals, books etc.). There is simply no comparison between the old 2007 version and version I updated to earlier this year. Caste and Caste system in India are two articles of many on caste topic on wikipedia. Other encyclopedia have just one article. My attempt to distinguish these two articles, according to wiki's summary style guidelines, done in good faith, incomplete and flawed as they may, do not justify accusations above. I include this for record.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 18:36, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Not 2007. It is the version of early Feb 2012 (before you made any edits) that I compared your August 2012 version with. Like I said, the Feb version needed citations, but it is much closer in emphasis and balance to the consensus version in the modern tertiary sources than yours. By drastically biasing the article, you have done Misplaced Pages a great disservice, even though, I grant you, you have been overtly polite in your interactions. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

@AVC, OK, I apologize for not making amply clear that I do not think that you are Hkelkar and his socks. For one, you write much better English; for another, you don't edit war with a hair trigger reflex. I was merely answering Sarvagna's query, about similarities with past changes. I think you are a more moral person than Hkelkar (and I hope this doesn't get me into more trouble.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages caste articles are linked and must be considered together, because that is what community agreed spin-off summary style suggest. Not one person so far, including you, has addressed this in the RfC. If you consider all linked articles (i.e. for main article see at top of each section), wiki's encyclopedic coverage on caste dedicated to India is over 80%, and over 75% is avoid double counting. Why does wiki need two articles, if caste article is 95% on India like some tertiary sources you like, and caste system in India is 100% on India copy of the other? As we discussed in the RfC, tertiary sources have differing coverage of world versus India - some of these published between 1970 and 2010, include very significant coverage of caste outside India, and include Africa, Middle East, Europe, Latin America, Japan, Korea, etc. etc. Some regional encyclopedia / tertiary sources have majority of their caste topic coverage dedicated to their region, that is outside India.

See Tijfo098 comments. He or she, another admin I assume, was suggesting strong action above and on the Caste talk page. Tijfo098 has after a polite discussion today conceded on Talk:Caste that reliable sources exist on Jewish caste in Poland, and went on to constructively edit Caste article's section on Poland today. This was not there in January 2012 or any prior years. It is pity that an assumption of bad faith has overwhelmed the discussion above. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 19:22, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Any way, I do not believe it is productive to continue the RfC here, regardless of the injustice there or here. I urge wiki community to not return caste article to January 2012 version, rather consider additions/suggestions made by Tijfo098 today and others before today. Consider each section one by one, evaluate the cited secondary sources (the article includes some of the most respected scholars), delete/revise/seek more citations for sections that are inadequately cited, expand India section, trim others, split out new articles per Piotrus suggestions. Let the goal be to improve that article and thus wikipedia. Your, Fowler&fowler, complaint from first day has been the caste article hides "ills of Hindu India" - but hiding or highlighting ills of any country/people/person is not the goal of wikipedia. As I said I am neither from India nor Hindu, but I hope editors on wiki who are from India and of whatever religion do not feel that they are not welcome to contribute to wikipedia. Forgiveness and politeness, in life or on line, is a difficult but beautiful thing. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 19:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict):I'm afraid in your penultimate post, you were repeating the arguments that have already been considered. You are attempting to redefine Misplaced Pages policy. Caste is a flagship article on caste-related topics. The tertiary sources overwhelming devote some 75 to 100 per cent of article space to India. According to WP:TERTIARY, the scholarly tertiary sources are important in determining due weight. It is not merely a question of space, although that is important too (see Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#WP:DUE_and_length_of_sections), it is the emphasis. In your very first edit to the article, you changed the old sentence in the lead, "It should not be confused with race or social class, e.g. members of different castes in one society may belong to the same race or class, as in India." to "Some literature suggests that the term caste should not be confused with race or social class, e.g. members of different castes in one society may belong to the same race or class, as in India, Japan, Korea, Nigeria, Yemen" to which you later added," or Europe." In a few hours after the first edit, you had added the sentence, "The use of a caste system is not unique to any religion. Castes have been observed in societies that are, for example, predominantly Muslim, Christian, Hindu or Buddhist." I remind you also that a full two weeks after the RfC began, you have not made a statement in the RfC. You are attempting a last-minute statement here. More importantly, it is wrong. You need to take time off from caste-related topics and think long and hard about bias. It is not enough to get reliable secondary sources. How you stack those sources to define emphasis is equally important. It is not your choice. You have to be beholden to the scholarly tertiary sources for that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:11, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler - as you already know, I have not edited caste articles for many months (exception: revert some minor vandalism/add back removed citations, another exception: accept some of the edits you made in August). I do not understand what edits or tendentious edits are being referred to. Any edits I did make to the lead in early 2012, the one's you mention above, are amply supported by multiple reliable verifiable secondary sources that meet every required community agreed guidelines. Those edits were made with numerous watchers active on caste articles. No one then, nor since has so far challenged reliability of those verifiable peer reviewed scholarly sources. Yes, DUE is an issue with the article. Others, Piotrus and I agreed on this sometime ago. The DUE issue must be fixed. There is no need to repeat yourself or the RfC here.

There is no evidence that any sock from past or present is related to me on this matter. There is no evidence that I have any relation to any wiki user or anyone 'indicative of a Hindutva POV warrior' - yet this bad faith has been assumed here. It is sad and unjust. It is unjust because, if anything, it is you who has from the start repeatedly assumed bad faith and expressed your concerns with 'Hindutva' and 'ills of Hindu India' (see here). I quote one example of your concern about caste article (August 3 2012 version):

Misplaced Pages article on Caste: In the past, this sort of distancing of India from its evils, was engaged in by Indian editors. - Fowler&fowler, 13:03, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Caste is a difficult, complex and frequently disputed topic among scholars. Polite collaboration could have helped us pool our minds, resources and talents to improve the article. As it turns out, we failed.

ApostleVonColorado (talk) 21:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler - I just checked my first 20 edits starting with the first one on 9th February 2012. I did not add Europe on my first edit. I added Korea and Yemen into the lead, and per wiki lead guidelines appropriately, because the lead back then did not mention Korea or Yemen even though the version before my first edit had a significantly section on Korea and on Yemen. Article lead should summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight - my February 2012 edits tried exactly to do that. Significant parts of the lead and 60%+ of the article, before my first edit, lacked any citations - and my initial series of edits were primarily adding citations (see this), asking for citations (see this), and checking/revising whether citations supported the language in the article (see this). Adding or requesting reliable verifiable sources is, I submit opposite of being tendentious. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 22:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Your continued efforts at bludgeoning everyone else to death in these discussions is indicative of the very tendentiousness you're attempting to refute, in addition to the problems already raised by others. That's why I've banned you from the topic area for 6 months. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler's use of rollback

Apparently he used it in the recent content dispute . He should be warned not to use it that way. I haven't investigated Fowler&fowler use of the right further back. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I used it because Hoshigaki had been told that the references were the correct ones and there had been a week long discussion on it just before Hoshigaki appeared on WP ten days ago. He chose nonetheless to make the edits in an FA which has a long tradition of discussing changes on the talk page first. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the archives by searching for Fowler and rollback. The first link I found shows Fowler has misused rollback in the past. I did not explore further links. This ist he link I found: Hoshigaki (talk) 04:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If anyone bothers to look at the history (and search the cites source), they will find that the source Fowler was referring to indeed did not support the content it was cited against. That's why I added a new, more accurate source in its place. It turned out that the source was cited at the wrong place. Hoshigaki (talk) 04:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

This is indeed a blatant misuse of rollback, and I would support removal of the rights, especially in view of the previous incident. Rollback is for vandalism/spam only, and for curbing "widespread disruption", none of which apply here.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

OK. Please remove it. I'm unlikely to go about cleaning spam etc anyway. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• Strong oppose: I oppose the decision of removal of rollback rights here. A friendly note/alert (about how and when rollback should be used etc) should be fine here for now (though this is my first post in this thread, yes, I have read the whole thread before commenting (as an ANI stalker))--Tito Dutta ✉ 15:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: Agree with Tito, a friendly note will do. Correct Knowledge 15:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: Although I do not agree with Fowlers behavior this proposal looks silly --sarvajna (talk) 18:55, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
• Question How many misuse-of-rollback warnings is a guy allowed before it's taken away from him? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Unwarranted abuse

Sitush's calling me notorious is another example of the standards of civility maintained by him and Fowler. I assure you all that this is not the most extreme example. Thanks. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

"Notorious" is not an insult, in and of itself. dangerouspanda 08:23, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Yogesh Khandke that is not the most extreme example. Mr T 08:46, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Mrt3366, you're skating on remarkably thin ice; either back that up or don't push your luck. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolution

OK, this has gone on for quite long enough. This is what's going to happen here;

1. ApostleVonColorado (talk · contribs), Hoshigaki (talk · contribs), and CorrectKnowledge (talk · contribs) are all banned for 6 months from all articles and discussions under WP:GS/Caste, broadly construed.
2. Mrt3366 (talk · contribs) and Sarvajna are warned that continuing the same editing patterns will quickly lead to either the same or, quite possibly, a block; Sarvajna in particular is on very, very thin ice.
3. Fowler&fowler (talk · contribs) should read over WP:ROLLBACK, there's no need to revoke rollback at this time.
4. All editors are reminded that the area is covered under discretionary sanctions.

I will notify individual editors; should editors have a problem with their sanctions, start a new thread below following the appeals process laid out at WP:AE. Any other admin can feel free to either object or close this up now as they see fit. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:00, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The Blade of the Northern Lights: you are warning me for my editing pattern!! This makes me laugh, I have not edited anything on those articles at all. I am sure you have not checked my contributions at all. This cannot be a resolution at all what so ever. The only thing I can conclude from your resolution is Fowler does nothing wrong I am ready to provide evidence of his uncivil behavior few admins are here to back him.--sarvajna (talk) 18:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Special:ReadMind doesn't exist, as evidenced by your comment. I reviewed everyone's behavior, and yours is indicative of a Hindutva POV warrior. I have no particular affiliation with Fowler&fowler, only a desire to improve Misplaced Pages. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure what you have reviewed, which of my behavior was a indicative of a Hindutva POV warrior? Your comment can be helpful in improving my own behavior. I really don't believe when you say I have no particular affiliation with Fowler&fowler You have hardly cared about the comments provided by other editors above. Also do you still want me to provide the evidence of Fowler's uncivil behavior? As you have not said anything about that.--sarvajna (talk) 19:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If you'll reread everything above, I have indeed said that the comments above didn't portray Fowler&fowler in the best light; however, I'm also considering mitigating circumstances here, which are that he was under constant duress from a bunch of tendentious editing. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:30, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Correct. I agree that you have mentioned that the comments above didn't portray Fowler&fowler in the best light. But in no way it has been concluded that Fowler had any reason to be uncivil.Please read all the comments above before you arrive at any kind of conclusion .--sarvajna (talk) 19:36, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to assume you don't know what mitigating circumstances means, so I'll rephrase the second half of my previous comment; I'm taking into consideration the frustration that comes along with what Fowler&fowler was doing, which was dealing with a lot of tendentious editors at Talk:Caste. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I will rephrase what I said, it is still not concluded that the other editors were tendentious. Please refer the latest comments by AVC. Also I still request you to provide me with proper diffs which indicates my Hindutva POV warrior attitude. It would be of great help.--sarvajna (talk) 19:46, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Please also read my response to AVC's penultimate post. He had begun to add biased content to the article with his very first edit to it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

PS What does tendentious mean? It means: having or showing a definite tendency, bias, or purpose. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:TENDENTIOUS. DMacks (talk) 20:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

CorrectKnowledge and AVC are now banned from caste?? I am bewildered. Mr T 07:28, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The Blade of the Northern Lights:I have been carefully observing the discussion on both the talk page of this article as well as the discussion here . Now that you have banned AVC for six months , apart from others . For the sake of enlightening other[REDACTED] editors – I would appreciate if you would also specifically elucidate here the reason/observations through edit histories you choose to take cognizance of ,or chose not take cognizance of for (1) placing bans on ApostleVonColorado Hoshigaki , and CorrectKnowledge and warnings on some editors Mrt3366 Sarvajna . And (2) absolutely no action on others Fowlerand Fowler and Sitush .

Evidence for constant duress from a bunch of tendentious editing is available not only for participating editors you have banned or warned as is the for tendentious editing . I have seen only two comments from you here but many from all other . In neither of the two of your comments I could decipher your reasons for arriving at your decisions . What are the principal grounds that make it justifiable rational, to apply rules to one set of editors and not the other in the light of edit historys .Thanks in advance for your clear enunciation .Intothefire (talk) 07:55, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I thought it was pretty obvious, but to summarize; 1. The 3 editors I banned were causing the most problems at Talk:Caste and other pages, 2 Mrt3366 and Sarvajna, haven't been as obviously disruptive at this moment, but a review of their contributions shows a similar pattern of editing in both, and 3 I haven't sanctioned Fowler&fowler or Sitush because they're working towards neutral, verifiable articles; this I know from past experience and from what I observed in those discussions. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 11:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

What is obvious is that you had pre-decided to ban AVC from caste articles even before the discussion started, your second reply in the discussion shows that, which means you just assumed bad faith even before AVC tried to explain his stand. Correct Knowledge is involved in various article and has worked on improving the class of the various articles. Somehow it is only Fowler who has complained and no one else. You just added his name to the List in which AVC was present. You need to provide a better reason than were causing the most problems . I was surprised to see when you mentioned that CK was banned. I challenge or I request you to provide evidence of problematic behavior of CK.Lastly as requested above for several times above can you provide me with proper diffs which indicates my Hindutva POV warrior attitude. You just picked up Sitush's line and pasted it. This whole exercise seems to an effort to help Fowler. Thanks to you Fowler goes scot-free without a eve single note of admonishment for his uncivil behavior.--sarvajna (talk) 14:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Blade, for this sensible and judicious set of outcomes. As an uninvolved editor whose only concern was civility, I'm satisfied. Let's hope the warned editors take note. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

What is Hindutva POV warrior? Do you really mean Hindutva (term coined by Savarkar) or Hinduism (or Vedanta)? --Tito Dutta ✉ 17:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

@Sarvajna, you have not addressed my query of 18:25 21 Sept above and now you are suggesting that I have used the term "Hindutva POV warrior" here or on the Caste] article - show me that diff please. - Sitush (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Better use the word "Hinduism" and not "Hindutva" unless you actually mean it. Reading from the article– Many Indian sociologues have described the Hindutva movement as fascist in classical sense.. Let's not make the discussion more complex! --Tito Dutta ✉ 18:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I know what I said; Sarvajna's undying support of people like Yogesh Khandke and Zuggernaut (and before he stopped editing, MangoWong), who all favored the nationalist Hindutva POV, across multiple articles led me to my view. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, "Hindutva," might have been the name of Savarkar's book, but in common language it stands for "Hindu nationalism". In fact the Misplaced Pages article, itself refers to that in the first sentence. The Collins English Dictionary defines it as "(in India) a political movement advocating Hindu nationalism and the establishment of a Hindu state." There are doubtless many other sources. I'm sure someone like Chris Jaffelot defines it somewhere. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

PS I think of "Hindutva POV warrior" to be synonymous with "Hindu nationalist POV Warrior" in common usage. Here is Britannica (about Savarkar): "While imprisoned he wrote Hindutva: Who Is a Hindu? (1923), coining the term Hindutva (“Hinduness”), which sought to define Indian culture as a manifestation of Hindu values; this concept grew to become a major tenet of Hindu nationalist ideology." I don't see any semantic issues with its use by The Blade or Sitush. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, we started from "caste" related articles and now we are heading towards Hindutva (consequently Savarkar, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and which may also be linked to Assassination of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi or 2002 Gujarat violence). See Supreme Court of India's judgement and comments over this issue! --Tito Dutta ✉ 19:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Well I'd like people to stop referring to people dying as "perished", as that term has a very specific definition in history (it was a process the Turks used to kill and completely eliminate all traces of Armenians they killed); however, I've had to accept that people sometimes do that. Same thing here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:26, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks

User:Bali ultimate reverted an edit of mine, claiming - without a shred of evidence or proof (for which there exists none) - that I am an "activist" on behalf of a certain group of people. The edit I inserted was simply an allegation that a bunch of sheep were eating dozens of trees in a night, to an article on conspiracy theories in a conflict.

The edit summary states: "there is nothing conspiratorial about settlers disruipting the olive harvets. that happens. removes deceptive claim made by settler activist."

While the first part of the edit summary deals with a content dispute over whether sheep can really eat dozens of trees in one night, the second part (the part that I bolded) is a direct personal attack on myself, without any proof, and I find it to be highly offensive. The editor, Bali Ultimate, has been around for a while and should know better, and he was even blocked as early as June for 10 days (although for a separate reason, he disrupted an ArbCom case).

While searching the archives, I found another example of Bali launching a personal attack for which he can't back up evidence, where at this AE case he accuses (as a fact) certain editors of coordinating Misplaced Pages activity offline. Specifically, Bali wrote "Strategic reverting, coordinated by email, to put the other "side" in the soup for naughty, naughty "reverts" has been taken to an art form in this topic area (by one "side" far more persistently than the other)."

I find these personal attacks, which Bali writes as definitive facts without zero proof (and I know, for one, that I'm not a "settler activist"), highly offensive and troubling to encounter.

--Activism1234 21:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

You might want to explain why being called a "settler activist" might be considered a personal attack - I see it as a mistaken (based on your explanation) assumption that you're part of a group based on the type of edits being made. Perhaps you could point me to where you tried to discuss the meaning of the phrase with Bali directly so I can have a look? dangerouspanda 21:57, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It's a defamation of my name. Now, I'm not a regular Misplaced Pages editor, I'm actually an activist (who knows, maybe I'm paid too!) who should be constantly monitored, and the fact that I'm an activist may even suffice to revert some of my edits, and can be used in edit summaries. It's insulting to me - I'm being labelled as someone that I'm not. I'm an editor, I'm not an activist for anyone, and that claim has no proof whatsoever. --Activism1234 22:09, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The phrase is a phrase that labels me as an activist for settlers. I'm not an activist for anyone - period. If I was called an activist for movie directors, I'd reject that too as a false labelling of my name and defamation without any actual evidence that I am said activist. Even if my edits appear to support a particular POV, say movie directors, would that make me an activist?? Of course not. Bali can't prove that, and will never be able to, because I'm not. --Activism1234 22:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

But why is it "defamation of your name"? Your userid says "Activism" and does not identify you directly as a person. Being misidentified as being part of a group? Really? dangerouspanda 22:12, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

My name as an editor, not my userid. Yes, my userid says "Activism" - does that make me an activist?? I'm expressing my goal of being an active editor, not of being an "activist," for which no evidence exists. Again, we also have that claim by Bali that there's a group of editors who engage in off-Misplaced Pages activities to coordinate their edits, a claim he stated as a fact, without any evidence. Then there are further attacks on me below. --Activism1234 22:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes that was me. I believe your sole purpose on Misplaced Pages is to make Palestinians in particular and Arabs in general look bad, and to support a particular faction within Israel's political discourse (in shorthand, I'll call it the settler movement). My evidence is your editing behavior here, which I've looked off and on for a few months. (You popped up on my watchlist when I checked in today on a really awful hit piece I helped fix a while ago). Your antics at Maureen Dowd recently may also be of interest. Do I care about your beliefs, what's in your heart? No. But the way you act on them here, to skew content on one of the most highly trafficked websites there is, does concern me. It should concern more people. I understand it won't.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Another attack on me... I'm trying to fathom how some articles I created and made substantial contributions to, like 2012 Nigeria floods, Mostafa Hussein Kamel, Nagwa Khalil, Momtaz al-Saeed, Shaanxi bus-tanker crash, August 2012 Caracas prison riot, Marikana miners' strike, Menachem Cohen (scholar), Hisham Zazou, or Deeper Life Church shooting, none of which have anything to do with the Israeli-Arab conflict, can possibly be evidence that my "sole purpose on Misplaced Pages is to make Palestinians in particular and Arabs in general look bad." So yes, here's another personal attack for me that labels me as someone that I am not.

I edit based on RS outlets, if there's a specific problem with an edit of mine, feel free to discuss it with me on the article. For example, I'd be happy to discuss the content-specific aspect of this edit on that article, but the personal attack was just incendiary. Simply put - it's false. You made a gross assumption and believed it as a fact, and then defamed me as such. --Activism1234 22:09, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

If you find the label "activist" to be offensive maybe you should have chosen another username?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:12, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, my userid says "Activism" - does that make me an activist?? I'm expressing my goal of being an active editor, not of being an "activist," for which no evidence exists. Why am I labelled as a particular type of activist? As I showed above, Bali has attacked me further, claiming that I have only one sole purpose on Misplaced Pages, which I punctured by demonstrating a variety of articles I've created or significantly expanded and worked on which aren't even related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Yet Bali singles me out as a "settler activist." --Activism1234 22:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that if a user with the name "activism" makes edits that can be seen as tendentious or motivated by a political stance it is unreasonable to expect that others don't call you out on it. If you don't want to be called "settler activist" then 1. change your username and 2. be sure to edit in ways that do not seem biased in favor of settlers.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

"Settler activist" is not an insult. If you make edits that appear to have some specific POV, don't be surprised if someone mistakes you for having a POV. The title itself is not an insult, so it cannot violate NPA dangerouspanda 22:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

He's publicly labelling me as an activist. Not even just "reverting a POV," but going the step to say I'm an activist in real life for them. That's something he can't corroborate. --Activism1234 22:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Um, so what. Being an activist of any type is not an insulting term dangerouspanda 22:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

"going the step to say I'm an activist in real life...". Your Misplaced Pages editing is part of your 'real life'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Let's just note that your edit, Activism1234, with the edit summary " add, sheep don't eat dozens of trees overnight (edited with ProveIt))" was blatant original research. There was absolutely nothing in the source you cited that characterised the event as a conspiracy theory. If you intend to make inventive edits like that, you really don't belong in this project, understood? --JN466 22:58, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Quite. And by the way, the implication is not that the sheep ate trees whole, bark, trunk and all overnight. It's a pissed off farmer complaining that the sheep ate the... wait for it... the fruit, presumably all the fruit they could get to (olive and other orchard trees are pruned to stay low). Did that really happen? Don't know. Does "Activism" who abhors being called an "activist" know the reality of what happened? No. All we have is a probably badly translated article from Maan (which doesn't say what he claimed it said). Did Maan news agency write what he claimed they wrote? No. Straight down the rabbit hole, we all go. Blech.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It looks like Activism1234 needs to be warned for WP:OR insertions. And putting "activism" in his user name skirts what's acceptable WP:BAIT, given his POV pushing unsupported by sources which may caused by WP:COMPETENCE or WP:ACTIVISM issues. In any case, Activism1234 is a disruptive user name, and should receive a WP:UAA block in light of his editing. To put it more bluntly if someone registers User:POVPushing1234, does some WP:POVPUSHing and then runs screaming to ANI that he is being "discriminated" because of his user name when people object to his editing, we should oblige with WP:BOOMERANG. Tijfo098 (talk) 00:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'm curious why someone with a user name like Activism1234 is so badly disconcerted by being called an "activist?" (For one thing, there are a couple areas in which I'm an activist, and proud to be so.) Even given the dubious premise that the word "activist" has been smeared as pejorative in the same way "liberal" has been in this country, one would think that someone who felt that the word was pejorative wouldn't use a similar construction as a user name. I strongly disagree that his user name is "disruptive" - perhaps Tijfo098 could explain that startling assertion to us? - but I do agree that he protesteth too much. Ravenswing 08:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, if it's a personal attack to be called something that's semantically extremely related to (and possibly implied by) his user name, then his user name must also be unacceptable. I doubt that User:CockSucking would be allowed to edit, for instance. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Something of a strawman, don't you think? That being said, I don't think it's one bit more acceptable for us to be pointy at ANI than anywhere else on Misplaced Pages. The proper response to the OP is "Don't be absurd," not to compel him to change his user name because it allegedly incites people to insult ... which - you would have to concede - would presuppose we bought into the OP's silly premise that he was insulted, and would likewise follow that we would be taking action against the putative culprits. Ravenswing 08:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Pointy boomerang? Naah... Tijfo098 (talk) 08:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The tag-teaming by committed partisans whose sole interest here is to make Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims in general look bad (and in childish fashion no less) is very sad. What's sadder is that nothing will be done about it. .Bali ultimate (talk) 13:42, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I mean really. Nonsense to "get" the "other side" is inerted by User:Activism1234. I remove it. Then User:Dixy flyer, a rather obvious throwaway sock account for the IP battleground (all of six edits total), reverts me. Then User:AnkhMorpork, another of the anti-Arab, pro-Israel editors reverts me. Then User:Shrike, another of their "team" revets me -- all to force the inclusion of material that fails Misplaced Pages's own sourcing standards and is manifestly inappropriate. This happens every day. Ah, crowd-sourcing.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yup. The Zionist/Pro-Israel activist tag team (which is quite clearly what they are) are engaging in WP:OR (mingled with sheer ignorance) to insert more propaganda into what must be one of Misplaced Pages's most ludicrous articles - and then AnkhMorpork has the chutzpah to invoke WP:ARBPIA restrictions, as if adding the material in the first place wasn't overt POV-pushing of the most ridiculous kind. Par for the course though - this lot have been around long enough to know how to subvert every rule in order to pursue their agenda. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The false information, which rests on lying about the claims of a published source, has now been restored again by User:Activism1234. This is how Misplaced Pages "content" gets made. There is no editorial-control to deal with propaganda and, frankly, viciousness, from a group of ethno-nationalists here to share their hatred for others.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This is how Misplaced Pages has functioned since its inception (on such topics). Okay, they've added the ArbCom 1RR at some point, which actually increased the importance of disciplined, coordinated revert teaming. Lamentation at ANI is not going to change that. Stick to the game's rules and keep a stiff upper lip. Or go someplace else. I hear they've opened a WP:TEAHOUSE with professional web design and a relaxing atmosphere! Tijfo098 (talk) 16:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I just occasionally try to fix particularly egregious and vicious things here. I mostly spend time on worthier pursuits, i.e. .Bali ultimate (talk) 16:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Johncheverly

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Hi. Johncheverly (talk · contribs) has been causing problems. His attitude is quite incivil. On Abraham Lincoln cultural depictions, he added text which violates the WP:MOS and is a direct copyright violation. He also insulted IllaZilla (talk · contribs) by calling him a punk. What is the best solution to help solve this problem? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The best solution would be for Johncheverly to conduct his account in a much more collegial manner. I'm thinking it is likely that we may have to opt for a second best solution. 76Strat  da _Broke da (talk) 01:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

EIther IllaZilla has many fans using the same vocabulary ("See "Illa made me do it" in edit summaries) or JohnCheverly has now logged out and is continuing the campaign of harassment through 173.76.119.10 (talk · contribs). And based on the IP's edit history, I'm voting for a single purpose troll account on the part of John. I know that's not very AGF of me. Sorry. Millahnna (talk) 01:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I take it back. IP doesn't look like John. Illa does get a lot of fans some days, I know from interacting with him (her?) at the film project. Must just be one of those days. Millahnna (talk) 03:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, JohnCheverly also sent a possibly harassing email to the Wikimedia Foundation and myself. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

What specifically did this "harrassing" email say? Go Phightins! (talk) 03:05, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, but Johncheverly's email said "I am writing to report attempted bullying by the aforementioned user over constructive criticism and comments I attempted to make about the Abraham Lincoln subtext in John Frankenheimer's 1962 film version of "The Manchurian Candidate." I am a 49 year old man and do not have to make smug remarks off a creep hiding behind a pseudonym." Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is a clear violation of our no personal attacks and harassment policies. Just to clarify, IllaZilla is a well-respected editor and if you check Johncheverly's contributions here and the notifications on his talk page, he was warned about a possible copyright violations and also his civility issues. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:28, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I invited Johncheverly to join this discussion to explain himself about an hour ago, so we'll see if he does. If not, I would stipulate to that being a personal attack per WP:NPA and support sanctions of some kind. Go Phightins! (talk) 03:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, here are some more differences of Johncheverly's incivility: , , . Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

For those outbursts alone, I would have supported some kind of sanctions. I understand that this can be frustrating, but WP:STAYCOOL needs to be adhered to. Granted, those edits were made in July, so I will assume that he's moved on by now. I would say we give JC until tomorrow (or depending on where you are, I suppose later today), but at the moment I would support a block for a week or two. Go Phightins! (talk) 03:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Question when was this email sent? Go Phightins! (talk) 03:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

It was today. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

All right, in that case, I would say forget explanation, administrative action probably needs to be taken. Go Phightins! (talk) 03:53, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

In addition to my comments about the threatening email towards me and the WMF, the "aforementioned user" Johncheverly is referring to in the email is IllaZilla. Also, Johncheverly posted a personal attack directed towards IllaZilla on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Popular Culture, but it was promptly removed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:07, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

In addition to this dude's anger, which has been covered well enough, we also have:

• spamming the same crap across several pages:

• pointy editing:

• obvious competency issues:

Maybe a mentor would help… maybe not. —Kerfuffler  howl
prowl  04:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this discussion, Sjones23. I mentioned to Johncheverly in my last post on my talk page that I was going to report him, but I didn't get to do it right away due to real-life business. I'm sure I'm going to repeat some things others have already brought up, but here's my side of the story:

Johncheverly popped up at WT:FILMS making what I saw as off-topic comments . I went to his talk page to explain why I'd removed them, but first I checked his contribs and immediately saw a lot of problems: His edit summaries & section headers nearly all consist of all-caps yelling, incivility, insults, or some combination thereof. Here are some of the greatest hits:

• "I just woke up and I read your smug, self-satisfied, and unwated comments on my talk page. I detest you like a cancer, you f****** a******."
• "PISSFUCKINGPOOR!!! you make the whole Regiment's service and sacrifice a complete mockery with your lousy sting article, bud!!! Do some fucking research."
• "PISS POOR. IS THAT ALL YOU CAN THINK OF???"

Granted these were from June/July, but Johncheverly had been inactive since then and seemed to be on the same course now that he was back. So I left what I believe was a very polite message on his talk page asking him not to type in all-caps (since it comes off as yelling), to tone down the offensive attitude of his comments, and instructing him on how to properly sign his posts (since he seems to have trouble with that). I decided to keep an eye on him to see if his behavior would change. He went to Talk:Abraham Lincoln and proposed what I read as original research, so I responded and pointed him to the relevant policies. He reacted with:

• "LINCOLN SUBTEXT PROOF FOR DOUBTING KNOW-IT-ALLS. IS THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU DOUBTING DUDE???"
• i put up, now you shut up. IS THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU DOUBTING DUDE???"
• "just letting illazilla know i think he is a punk. If you don't really care, then you need to shut your big mouth in the first place. And you need to grow a spine and use your real name, otherwise you're just another punk."
• "MAJOR EDIT TO LINCOLN IN POP CULTURE PAGE DUE TO LOUDMOUTH ILLA-ZILLA."

He posted the same block of several paragraphs copy/pasted from another website to 5 different talk pages, including mine: . He copied the same block of text, including bare external links and entire paragraphs lifted straight from another website, to Abraham Lincoln cultural depictions. Since this is a copyright violation, I reverted and gave him a warning using {{Uw-copyright-new}}. Now he's accusing the rest of us of being "a handful of geeky despots".

If Johncheverly is indeed a 49-year old man, I have to wonder if this is how he interacts with people in real life. I certainly want nothing more to do with him. --IllaZilla (talk) 10:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• Blocked - Good faith isn't a suicide pact. Between serial copyright/flooding issues and clueless editing, plus edits that are primarily hit and run commentaries that aren't helpful, all I can see is a worsening pattern of disruption, and other concerns that are probably self-evident, and it does go back a bit. I've tried, but I can't find a reason to not block, and this bizarre behavior is such that I can't determine a period that would "fix" the problem, so I have indef'ed him and will leave it to the good judgement of another admin to determine when sufficient clue has been demonstrated. He isn't here to build an encyclopedia, and other than criticize and generally throw rocks, I'm not sure what he is here for. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Legal threat

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Legal threat here: by User:Dave of Maryland: "The situation is grave. I will present this to the community on Monday. In two days. The presentation is nearly done. I will most strongly urge immediate legal action. The community has 30 years case law experience. I do not think Misplaced Pages will present much problem." IRWolfie- (talk) 16:56, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Indef, and ask which zodiac sign he was born under. My money's on Zippy, the Pinhead. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• I indeffed the editor based on the legal threat. He can retract it and request an unblock if he wishes. The editor is clearly not at Misplaced Pages to do anything but promote a pro-astrology agenda, anyway, having made precisely one article edit (out of 109 edits total) since creating an account in 2009.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I note he's created a page (not an actual nomination) at Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Project Hindsight, although Project Hindsight doesn't exist. -- AussieLegend (✉) 17:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
    • I think he's complaining about an article that was already deleted. Obviously doesn't know and/or care how requests for deletion and un-deletion work. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:31, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

He had made an edit to the closed discussion (which I reverted some time ago). IRWolfie- (talk) 17:53, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

IP editor ignoring results of RfC to restore disputed content

An IP editor, 75.72.35.253 (talk) is restoring content to Long War Journal after an RfC came to a consensus to remove the content in question. The IP then restored the deleted material, stating on the talk page "I'm afraid the opinions expressed here are inaccurate and the content in my edit was quite reliable and neutral." See also his edit summary of "I'll compromise only a little. See talk page".

I reverted his addition of the material, and left explanations of his need to obtain consensus on the edit summary , the talkpage , and his talkpage . He then added the material back.

If we could block the IP, or take other action to stop this, it would be helpful. GregJackP Boomer! 18:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring the issue at all. I have not violated any policy and added reliable information. I have informed people about my edits and I wish they would understand where I am coming from and that I have not violated any policy. Bill Roggio is a controversial figure and it needs to be known. I did follow the synthesis policy, as I mentioned in the talk page, and am quite neutral. Bill Roggio is not at times a reliable resource, as his articles have shown, and this needs to be known.18:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.35.253 (talk)

The RfC was unanimous to remove the material. GregJackP Boomer! 19:05, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I started a new RfC section at the bottom. I tried to put it there earlier, but my edit wound up on the previous RfC section I don't know if my computer caused it or if it was a techical error on the website.75.72.35.253 (talk) 19:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine, then you can revert the material, and if the new RfC has a consensus to add it, you can. Until then, you can not put material back in the article after it was removed per the consensus of the RfC. GregJackP Boomer! 19:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I firmly reject a bias consensus that needs to be reviewed altogether. I'm not suggesting they are fans of Roggio, but if they are I recommend they understand neutrality. Sources need to be reliable and made the edits to firmly point out that he is not too reliable on reports of terrorists deaths and that this needs to be pointed out. I pointed out "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article." The topics are related because they discussed the terrorists fate Claiming he was "quoted as well as criticized" also doesn't exactly say all my sources in that one section I edited criticized him, which is what the previous RfC was implying, if you read the talk page for yourself.75.72.35.253 (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Related: While the above content dispute rages on, and probably won't result in much more than a suggestion to follow the Dispute Resolution process, please see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/JoetheMoe25 for something actually actionable by Admins. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Admins, we need you to back us up in enforcing the results of an RfC if the dispute resolution process is going to be effective. Cla68 (talk) 22:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

• Concur with Cla68. Also, be aware that the above sock investigation implicates the IP as a sock, along with several others, and indicates that there is a widespread problem with this editor's disruptive editing, including a lot of WP:IDONTHEARTHAT when consensus is against his position. GregJackP Boomer! 22:37, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Request for eyes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

HOAScholar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has produced a series edits with unusually captioned images of people. I'd like a few sets of eyes to make sure that there are no BLP violations and that appropriate oversight is provided if needed.Novangelis (talk) 00:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a vandalism-only account to me. Blocked and uploads nuked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt response.Novangelis (talk) 00:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Something odd here – Possible COI and single topic focus

Can somebody cast their eyes over these and and see what you think? 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 01:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Needs to read WP:ELNO and WP:REDLINK, but otherwise it doesn't look especially bad. —Kerfuffler  howl
prowl  01:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Also triggered Wikipedias spam filter. Did some cleanup.

Light-Productions, Inc

Google Analytics ID: UA-21818126 - (Track - Report - reverseinternet.com • Meta: Track - Report)

Google Analytics ID: UA-28748624 - (Track - Report - reverseinternet.com • Meta: Track - Report)

• thewinawards.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C Cross-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Local - COIBot-XWiki - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • Live link: http://www.thewinawards.com

• thewinawards.byethost24.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C Cross-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Local - COIBot-XWiki - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • Live link: http://www.thewinawards.byethost24.com
• winfemme.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C Cross-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Local - COIBot-XWiki - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • Live link: http://www.winfemme.com

Articles

• Women's Image Network (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• User:Sedaray/Women's Image Network Award
• User:GingerMomma12/Women's Image Network Awards
• User:Qwyrxian/Women's Image Network Awards

Accounts

GingerMomma12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
Sedaray (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
76.91.31.239 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
76.168.194.103 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
Lilacqueen60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
Winfemme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

What strange the domain is the thewinawards.com is an iframe placeholder for this site thewinawards.byethost24.com--Hu12 (talk) 02:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

User:Tarc, Again.

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Tarc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This users continued incivility toward anyone who apparently disagree with him, has to stop. Despite my very limited presence at Talk:Barack Obama, perhaps less than ten threads in the past four years, if that at all, he feels that my opinion means nothing and continues to close any thread on that page in which he feels threatens his version of the article. I broached the problem with him on his talk late and was told to . Now I ask, is this the attitude of an editor who feels that we should discuss and work out disputes and try and reach a common ground, or is this the attitude of an editor who feels that Misplaced Pages should reflect his version of events and anyone who disagrees should just zip it because their opinion means nothing?--JOJ 02:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I have no interest in discussing anything with this user on my talk page, so I removed it. I will not be trolled my my own talk page. No one has much interest in discussing much if anything with this user on Talk:Barack Obama either, because along with John (talk · contribs), they continue to browbeat, bully, insult and denigrate everyone who disagrees with them. Couple this non-incident with the "User:Tarc at Talk:Barack Obama" bullshit from the other day (can't seem to locate the link in the archives at the moment) and it is seriously time to discuss at the very least an Obama-related topic ban for Jojhutton.

This is just another editor who is getting madder and madder that article son politicians he doesn't like doesn't contain all the fringe critical junk that he wants it to be. The closer the election day comes, the more hysterical these sorts of editors are going to get. It was the same in 2008. Tarc (talk) 02:26, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This is the same attitude that is exerted by this user by anyone who disagrees with him. Its a very hostile attitude, which isn't indicative to the open nature of Misplaced Pages articles. And now you want me topic banned. That is one of the obvious tactics that has kept the so

Link to the archived ANI thread that Tarc mentions above: AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• Can't we settle this with a cage fight to the death or something like that? It would be more entertaining than our current methods of dispute resolution. --Jayron32 03:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

  After going nuclear in one of the threads above, I'm starting to wonder if maybe that approach would help here too... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Jojhutton: it's readily apparent from reading the talk page that your entire behavior there is trolling. I suggest you close out this discussion before it boomerangs. —Kerfuffler  howl
prowl  03:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

My question was, where is the guideline supporting FAQ 2? How is that trolling? I didn't begin the thread, only asked for clarification on the results.--JOJ 03:59, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

You were asking for a guideline that supports "Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say"? If asking that question wasn't trolling, it was a clear example of a failure of WP:COMPETENCE. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:07, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Ayn Randy in Boise?--Shirt58 (talk) 04:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh please. Does any of this sound familiar? I'm back to May, and I haven't seen you make a single constructive suggestion on the talk page; aside from one edit speaking against a silly idea (which, to be fair, I give you credit for), it's all bickering. —Kerfuffler  howl
prowl  04:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

No please look at the thread. A user initiated the thread with sources that conflict with the findings of FAQ 2. Someone expressed an opinion and I asked if there was a guideline that supported that opinion, and the other user tried to use FAQ2 as the source. I pointed out that FAQ2 isn't policy. Perhaps I misspoke/typed when I said I was trying to ask for a source that supported FAQ2. Its not what happened. --JOJ 04:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, right. And all the waffle about the FAQ being "a made up list of things that a small minority of editors decided to come up with 4 years ago as an attempt to stop relevant discussion before it happens" was 'misspoke/typed' too? You were trolling... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Could Avanu, who has so far added very little content to wikipedia, please stop closing threads with his own highly personal commentary? If he cannot comment neutrally, could he please stop closing threads? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 14:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

User:Part of me 2 disruptive and uncommunicative

Part of me 2 (talk · contribs) has some constructive edits. But I find it troublesome that he has been warned more than enough times for various things, sometimes trivial things such as manual of style gaffes, but has also been accused of vandalism and edit-warring, and worse yet, that he has never, ever used an edit summary nor any talk page, not even his own, in over 1,000 edits and five months of his account history. I think it's time for me to invoke competence is required and question whether this editor can effectively communicate in English. So many of his edits are the creation or modification of tables and gnoming such as adding links. He has been notified plenty of times and given a chance to change his ways. Now I think he could benefit from some extra encouragement. Elizium23 (talk) 04:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

User:Jasonasosa and WP:HARASS

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This is an unfortunate situation to bring forward, because I still believe that User:Jasonasosa has been a victim of a) others prodding, and b) his own misreading, or at least partial reading - taking only certain bits of statements out of context to support a position. Indeed, the editor was advised that there was nothing wrong my use of an alternate account in this ANI thread. I (and others) have tried since to help, but to no avail, and I have long ago disengaged.

However, Jasonasosa has now begun a campaign against me that, as per his own words, he "will voice this until User:EatsShootsAndLeaves account is shut down". He has begun to spread a similar message elsewhere, including here.

This is an outright threat, as per WP:HARASS: "Threatening another person is considered harassment. This includes threats to harm another person, to disrupt their work on Misplaced Pages"

The threat to hound me until I leave Misplaced Pages, this new pattern/campaign PLUS the continued wikihounding on my talkpage for more than a week after I formally apologized and completely disengaged myself from this editor are appalling.

I would ask that the editor's stated campaign to hound me until I leave Misplaced Pages be nipped in the bud. I am on my way to advise them of this ANI filing now  Done dangerouspanda 09:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the close: User:Avanu is involved, and indeed his mistaken interpretation of WP:SOCK#NOTIFY is one of the things egging on the poor behaviour from the other party dangerouspanda 10:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I have no interpretation of WP:SOCK#NOTIFY. My comment to you had nothing to do with a policy. I asked you to present the situation to your fellow admins, that was the end of it as far as I was concerned. I believe you are partly to blame for this continuing and I feel that bringing it to AN/I helps neither of you. I agree with general sentiments expressed by IRWolfie below. -- Avanu (talk) 10:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Your interpretation of it is all over my talkpage: you've even gone so far as to ask to Jasonasosa that if I changed it, would he stop harassing me. You're asking me to change what does not need changing, and setting the expectation with him that it does need changing. You're merely enabling the harassment. dangerouspanda 10:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

No, I told you that that tiny change would end that stupid argument you two are having. I was done with this a while ago, and I'm done with this discussion now at AN/I. I'm not setting any expectations for anyone. I did have some faith that you and he could act more like adults here and learn to move on from arguments with a gentleman's bond, but that seems to have passed. The fact that you are blaming me for his behavior and not looking at the previous actions you took, and also not looking at ways to de-escalate the problem shows me that you're not ready for more responsibility yet. He clearly needs to settle down, but it takes two people to keep the argument going. Good luck. -- Avanu (talk) 11:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, these comments by Jasonasosa are inappropriate, and do border on an intention to harass. I think a word to Jasonasosa by an uninvolved admin would probably do the trick. It's one thing to voice concerns that something is unclear, or that the use of NAC templates were inappropriate, quite another to suggest this somehow makes your behaviour "appalling" and "deceitful". Jason voiced his original concerns, they received no traction, he should be moving on, not hanging around to harass. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• I've removed the statement from Jasonasosa's user talk and explained there are other options. Tiderolls 11:11, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• And I've left an AGF warning. Black Kite (talk) 11:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Trust Is All You Need, RedParty and the List of anti-capitalist and communist parties with national parliamentary representation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trust Is All You Need started to revert mine page rename at a wrong way without discussing--RedParty (talk) 09:28, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Bringing this back as it appears to be an urgent call for a pair (User:RedParty and User:Trust Is All You Need) of edit-warring (move-warring) blocks ASAP. This is unbelievable!!dangerouspanda 09:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The point is this, this is a list of anti-capitalist and communist parties elected to national parliaments... This me and RedParty agree upon, but RedParty wants to use the word socialist in the title, which I mean is wrong because one reason; social democracy is a form of socialism which supports capitalism. RedParty has responded with the remark that all socialist forces needs to be anti-capitalist or communist to be considered socialist, but this is plain wrong. Ed Miliband is a self-declared socialist, Bernie Sanders is a self-declared socialist and hey, even China, one of the most market-based economies in the world, is a self-declared socialist state espousing communism...The point being is this, he hasn't been able to once to give a source, or state why social democracy is not socialist; he has answered "I dont agree", but thats out of question, because I don't care if he don't agrees, I care about him giving me a freaking source stating such a controversial claim.. of course, I havn't been behaving the best either, something i'm never able to do in these kind of situations. --TIAYN (talk) 09:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I have move-protected the article for the time being. I am still looking at whether blocking is necessary, but if TIAYN thinks that the British Labour Party is a socialist party he probably shouldn't be editing political articles at all per WP:COMPETENCE. Black Kite (talk) 10:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Socialism is anti-capitalist, for example Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Why don't include socialist parties in to the list? And the communist party of china is already included. And TIAYN started to revert mine page rename without discussing and at a wrong way (copy pasting)--RedParty (talk) 10:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I don't consider the British Labour Party socialist... I'm a Marxist, but to state that all socialist forces needs to be anti-capitalist is wrong, pure wrong.. Karl Marx himself wasn't anti-capitalist, he believed that capitalism had reached its technological and economic zenith, and needed to be replaced by the next stage, socialism. But he supported capitalism; for instance, he supported capitalism in Russian Empire, because the Russians were not ready for socialism..... But the point being is this, they themselves believe themselves to be socialist..... Ed Miliband is a self-declared socialist, hey even Tony Blair was a self-declared socialist... And you say this is wrong, well it makes as much sense as North Korea being socialist - its a nepotistic, monarchistic and at the top of that, racist, but people still view North Korea as socialist... THe point being is this; the British Labour Party is officially socialist, and its officially a member of the Socialist International, a socialist international espousing social democracy.... Its pure and simple.. --TIAYN (talk) 10:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This isn't the place for this argument. Use the talk page of the article. And I really should block both of you for that ridiculous move-war, but since you've disrupted nothing else and are apparently prepared to talk now, go there and do it. Black Kite (talk) 10:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, OK, but we are only going to be able to discuss in a proper, decent manner if the article continues to be protected, that is moved and edit protected. --TIAYN (talk) 10:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Fully protected for 3 weeks, move protected for 4. Come back to me if you believe you have solved your differences and the article can be unprotected sooner. Black Kite (talk) 10:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Sabah

I tried edit-protecting Sabah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for three days to get people to discuss, but it didn't work. Could someone take a look at see if it requires further protection or blocks? Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

While I'm unfamiliar with the history of the dispute, I'd advocate blocking Omdo and Egard89 for their apparent violations of the WP:3RR between 16:54, 22 September and 10:03, 23 September.

Differences for Omdo:

1. 08:43

2. 09:12

3. 09:30

4. 09:49

Differences for Egard89:

1. 08:05

2. 08:45

3. 09:16

4. 09:37

5. 09:53

These reversions appear to occur without any prior attempt at resolution elsewhere, and I'm unaware of any mitigating circumstances, namely vandalism. Mephistophelian (talk) 16:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC).

User:GregJackP and possible canvassing at Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list

GregJackP has quite legitimately posted at Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list, asking for help in improving the article Censorship in Islamic societies, which is currently subject to an AfD discussion. However, the posting also stated that "In addition, there is content dispute based on an overly narrow definition of censorship. There is currently an RfC, so imput on that would also be helpful in getting this article saved". This appeared to me to be canvassing, in that it was improperly asking for support for a particular position at the RfC, and accordingly I commented on this in the thread. . In reply GregJackP wrote that "... if you feel it was canvasing, file a complaint. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut and your opinion to yourself, as these type of unfounded accusations have been addressed over and over again. Guess what - it's not canvassing". Since I'm not interested in 'guessing' whether it was canvassing or not, I'll ask the question here: was it canvassing, and if so, what action (if any) should be taken about it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• The tone of his proclamation at ARS was definitely not neutral. (Disclosure: I !voted to delete that article.) Tijfo098 (talk) 15:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
  • What tone are you reading into this? Seems neutral to me. And work was being done on the article, but edit warring kept going on, and it is now locked from future editing. Dream Focus 15:55, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding what is going on with article content, that wasn't the issue. As I said, posting at ARS asking for help including an article is legitimate - but canvassing for support at an RfC isn't. How can a request for input at an RfC (which is beyond the ARS remit) which states that "there is content dispute based on an overly narrow definition of censorship" be neutral? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• Asking for help at ARS with improving the article to save from deletion = fine. Suggesting that editors of a certain persuasion weigh in on an RfC related to that = definitely not fine, in exactly the same way it would be if the target was an AfD instead of an RfC. Being incivil to someone pointing that issue out = simply compounding the problematic behaviour. GrepJackP has some explaining to do here. Black Kite (talk) 16:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• I don't have the ability to pull diffs effectively right now (I'm on my phone), but will respond more fully later. In brief, I asked for help in saving an article at ARS, and worded it neutrally, including all the factors involved. As to asking editors of a certain persuation? I think that it is fairly clear that I'm a deletionist - yet I'm on ARS all the time, as are others who are deletionists. Not all of those who are at ARS are of a single viewpoint. In addition, the article was at AFD at the same time, and in the past posting a notice at ARS has been held to not be canvassing. Perhaps I was a tad incivil, but it is really irritating to be accused of canvassing everytime something is posted to ARS. GregJackP Boomer! 16:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

As a courtesy, here's the text in full:

The only unstated (but easily inferrable) info is that the "delete COATRACK" AfD !votes were made by those arguing (there and in the RfC) that material not classifiable as censorship had been added. Tijfo098 (talk) 17:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• Doesn't seem luike egregrious canvassing to me, the wording about "overly narrow definition" I think could well simply be an unconscious failure to be completely neutral. I would be happy to assume good faith here and simply let GregJackP know that the wording is not sufficiently neutrally worded and that we expect future notices to be more neutral. The fact that he didn't himself agf with Andy is a problem but also not meriting more than an admonition to communicate in a collegiate spirit.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

User:69.255.225.227

This user keeps inserting content to a footnoted sentence at Slavery in ancient Rome, attributing information to the source that isn't in the source. Another editor and I have repeatedly explained on the user's talk page that the content may not be inserted in this way, and if the user wishes to add it, (s)he must cite a different source. Although initially there were concerns that the user didn't understand ethnic labels as they pertain to classical antiquity, the editing has become disruptive because the user refuses to find a different source and keeps wanting to make the existing source say something it doesn't. I can't tell whether User:69.255.225.227 is trying to make a point or is simply refusing to follow basic verification and attribution procedure. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Admin Arthur Rubin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am raising an issue here, because the user in question is an Admin and the pattern of disruptive, tendentious editing extends beyond a single incident. His status as an admin procedurally prevents this issue from being addressed through the conventional edit warring notice board.

This admin editor's objectivity may be clouded by some unknown bias that is evident in his edit history. He consistently tries to raise the bar for inclusion on certain articles. When multiple supporting sources are documented and consensus trends against his arguments, his arguments then morph into WP:POV, WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE, followed by overtagging articles with dubious maintenance tags. Admins are supposed to lead by example, and adhere to a high standard of conduct. According to WP:ADMIN sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages is incompatible with the status of administrator.

I do not propose a block for this editor however, given his tenure and role as an admin, he should know better than to engage in disruptive, tendentious editing. A temporary topic ban may be warranted. – MrX 19:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Page: Illinois Family Institute (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User being reported: Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Previous version reverted to:

• 1st revert: "It's synthesis to have this much, but "namecalling" is not specifically sourced for this organization."
• 2nd revert:
• 3rd revert: (admitted edit warring; self-reverted when warned)
• 4th revert: (self-reverted, but tag bombed the lead)

Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning:

Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: Talk:Illinois Family Institute#Closing this RfC

Comments:

While this user has not strictly broken the 3RR, I believe the examples above highlight the latest in a larger pattern of disruptive editing which I first warned the user about here User talk:Arthur Rubin#Disruptive removal of sourced content - September 2012

Notably, the user has made few if any actual contributions to these articles, instead seeming to prefer to police them for perceived bias and then argue both against consensus and against reliable, verified sources.

Other examples where this user has removed sourced content from articles about designated hate groups, (falsely) claiming that the content is unsourced. In each case, the sources can be verified and usually are direct quotes:

AFTAH

• September 14, 2012:"It's synthesis to have this much, but "namecalling" is not specifically sourced for this organization."
• September 18, 2012:""reason" is still unsourced. As you added back the default reason, within any justification, I'm removing the entire thing until it can be specifically sourced"

MassResistance

• September 17, 2012: " additional information not in any of the sources yet provided"
• September 17, 2012: "Hate group designation: still not in citation. Please stop synthesizing" (except it is in the source)
• September 17, 2012: "It's not in the source. Please learn to read."

Southern Poverty Law Center

• September 9, 2012: tag bombing

Public Advocate of the United States

• August 23, 2012: "unless the "hate group" designation is more important than what the organization stands for, it shouldn't be in the lede"

Parents Action League

• September 17, 2012: tagging and (unwarranted) attribution
• September 19, 2012: overtagging (even re-introducing a biased statement with a misspelling in the tag)
• September 17, 2012:Talk:Parents Action League#Revised content - discussion related to above edits

– MrX 19:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Please made edit warring reports at WP: AN/EW. Electric Catfish 19:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

(Uninvolved ANI Watcher) Found a similar report here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Arthur_Rubin_reported_by_User:MrX_.28Result:_Declined.29 --Tito Dutta ✉ 19:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Again, this is a pattern of disruptive editing, and as mentioned at the top of this report, "His status as an admin procedurally prevents this issue from being addressed through the conventional edit warring notice board." I posted an AN/EW notice a few hours ago and it was declined as not being in the correct forum. – MrX 19:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• As can be seen by the link to ANEW, I declined the report for the reasons stated there. MrX then came to my talk page and politely asked where he should report the problem, and I mentioned ANI as one possibility. As I said on my talk page, I have no comment on the merits of the issues raised by MrX - my decline was procedural. Finally, if anyone follows the link to ANEW, you will also see some of Arthur's comments, which MrX did not include above.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I am confused about the decline, which doesn't seem to fit. If the question is about the use of admin tools, then WP:AN is the proper venue. If it isn't about using admin tools, then the same venue is used for admins as non-admins. Outside of tool use, admins are the same as non-admins when it comes to article edits. Is there more to this that I'm seeing? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:52, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This looks like Bbb23 declined based on a misunderstanding about the technical aspects of blocking. (Speaking generally, WP:ANEW is the appropriate venue for determining whether or not edit warring has taken place involving any member of the Misplaced Pages community—logged-in or logged-out, admin bit or not. I have no comment on, nor have I investigated, the merits of this request.) For some reason, Bbb23 appears to believe that there is some sort of (technical?) barrier to blocking admin accounts; this is not the case. Admin accounts can be blocked just like any other accounts. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:11, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolved: I reverted Bbb23 at WP:AN/EW per this consensus. I believe that resolves the issue as it relates to this forum. I suggest that interested editors head that way to review the merits of the edit warring/3RR complaint. 24.177.121.137 (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

67.238.152.151

IP Special:Contributions/67.238.152.151 is ranting everywhere about fascism on wikipedia. Can an admin look at any of his edits and they will see what I mean. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

(Uninvolved non-admin ANI Watcher) The editors should be notified. I have done it for you. Regards! --Tito Dutta ✉ 20:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

He stopped 9 hours ago, so he either gave up or found something better to do. I left him one more polite note asking for context, but if he continues posting his rant to more random pages, he'll be blocked. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

1. Risman, W. M (1983). The struggle for the Falklands. The Yale Law Journal. p. 306.
2. Bulmer-Thomas, Victor (1989). Britain and Latin America: A Changing Relationship. Cambridge University Press. p. 3.
3. Carlos Escudé, 02/18/2012: "Argentina has rights to the Falkland Islands because in 1833 it occupied them legally and was expelled by force, against all right."

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards