Misplaced Pages

refrences?

There are no refrences for this article.... and this is the sort of article needs them! please add some if you have time. Ahudson 16:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

122.104.135.222 (talk) 02:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC) is http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/ a credible site.

although only numbers are being quotes, a quick look at the site will see it has significant bias.

could its numbers be found elsewhere?

122.104.135.222 (talk) 02:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

What the Fuck?

Over one million Americans died in Vietnam? That number seems not only inaccurate but grossly inflated. I'm pretty sure that most historical accounts have the number of U.S. dead at around 60,000. I checked the casualty records at the archive and the list is around 58,193. I think the guy who wrote 1,000,000 must have added up the totals for all the different subsets, failing to realize each subset was just categorizing the same casualties in a different way.

High Count, Low Count

It seems to me that many of the discrepancies in VPA/VC casualties could be explained by differing chronological scopes for various estimates. The absurdly high figure of 1.1 million Communist deaths could very well be referring to every VPA and VC combatant killed from 1945 to 1989 - as I recall the press release in question is a very vague three-line French affair. For all I know ARVN troops are lumped in there too. It is doubtful that this figure refers specifically to the period of American involvement in Vietnam. Kensai Max 05:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I looked at a document purporting to be the Agence France Presse piece the other day and it was remarkably scrappy. No source for the figures at all. Not at all what I'd expect from a news agency of their calibre. One other thing that struck me was that the combined total of dead and wounded for each side is virually identical. I suppose this reflects better casevac, treatment etc in the south. ROGER  09:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

United States Armed Forces

The U.S. section says there were "58,209 KIA and other dead", but I don't see that number in the given source. Also, the MIA link appears to be dead now. Superm401 - Talk 09:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Individuals

Should we perhaps try to list every individual casualtie we can as well? --67.162.31.148 (talk) 23:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Cambodia and Laos

Any chance of adding casualties from those two countries as well? I know there's less agreement on the figures than for North and South Vietnam, but omitting the subject entirely seems like the wrong approach. 87.74.32.50 (talk) 16:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Rummel

Rummel is over used in this and other articles on the Vietnam War,this article just seems to be one Rummel observation after another. I lost count of how many times his name is mentioned in this article. Seems someone had a Rummel book for Christmas. It would be a good idea to list other sources as there are many around.Zrdragon12 (talk) 12:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Source

The reference http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB6.1A.GIF (used five times in this article) is not a source, but a list of sources. In the foonote should be indicated which specific source (plus page nr.) is referred to.S711 (talk) 08:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Massacres

Ok, so I understand that this article touches on controversy. But I find little mention of the US atrocities referenced in popular culture, or by vietnam veterans. I thought the info would be easier to find on wikipedia, but it's nonexistent. I'd reference some Vietnam vets, but it would be original research.

Some examples from the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group:

http://www.latimes.com/vietnam

I'm obviously not well versed in wiki-protocol: is this not the place for this info or something? Atrocities seem relevant when discussing casualties. Hard to define atrocity when the enemy hides behind women and children. Civilians are casualties in a hut to hut firefight. Of course if you survive, you run the risk some distant citizen will blame you for trying to live another day.

-Learning Newbie

24.247.198.115 (talk) 02:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The # of N. Vietnamese civilian deaths

I don't know how credible Australian schoolbooks are or which scholarly census is referred to when it comes to thinking that 3,000,000 North Vietnamese civilians were killed by the USAF. I know people sometimes unfortunately cite rjsmith's mistaken interpretation of the death toll reported in the AFP report, which in itself just claimed 2,000,000 for *all of Vietnam*, not North Vietnam alone with an equal number to be added for S. Vietnam (what rjsmith for some reason says).

First off, anything over a few hundred thousand wouldn't make any sense (and I hope these remarks prove that I'm *not* trying to pass off apologetics for the U.S. military campaign in Vietnam here), because as writers as opposed as Noam Chomsky and Guenter Lewy have pointed out, it was South Vietnam that suffered the most damage during the war, not North Vietnam. (Well, maybe Cambodia and Laos were hurt just as much, but let's set that aside for now.) I think there's solid evidence that U.S. pilots periodically murdered North Vietnamese civilians during Rolling Thunder at least (e.g. at the Quynh Lap(sp.?) leper colony), but nowhere nearly as much as it would take to produce a fatality rate eclipsing the one in Japan or, for that matter, North Korea (and note that the USAAF/USAF operations in those countries were, as a matter of centrally-organized policy, meant to inflict massive devastation on civilian life). By contrast, the American military's free-fire zone, forced relocation of the rural citizenry, etc. SOPs naturally could be expected to result in the vast loss of civilian life that *actually* took place in South Vietnam. I agree without reluctance that this was really, awfully evil, not the responsibility of a few isolated U.S. soldiers or pilots, etc. but the intent, more or less explicit, of the American high command and personnel of comparable stature, protogenocidal if not outright genocidal in character, and so on.

Moreover, I should like to note that the indeterminate "hundreds of thousands" figure is one that I got from a copy in the Texas Tech University online Vietnam War archives of an SRV (postwar Vietnamese communist) government tract. I suppose if they had suffered no less than 15 times that much in the northern half of the country, they might've been keen on pointing that out (if for propaganda purposes only). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.27 (talk) 18:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

ttk love you knom and ever

the effect of the news and the troops

vietnam news of the war how did it effect the troops? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.230.154.116 (talk) 15:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Casualties caused by US forces

The article states that US forces killed 2 million civilians during the war; however, the source says only that 2 million citizens were killed TOTAL in the North and South. I am therefore removing this part of the section because it is not supported by the source until a credible number can be found. Anytus (talk) 17:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

2 million were directly killed, but much more died from other effect. Agent orange, for example, caused major health issues, and destroyed mass areas of farmland, causing chaotic famine and disorder. 173.183.79.81 (talk) 01:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Great Article....

I personally congratulate on a perfectly article full of pro-US bias, and figures and statistics, even the most historically well known ones, completely twisted to their liking. But this is the usual people should expect from this "high standard encyclopedia" I suppose. Long Live America!--Propaganda328 (talk) 14:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

This article is awful. How comes it doesn't mention how many civilians where killed by the USA? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulla1982 (talk • contribs) 07:38, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Redactions by Fences&Windows 22:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a specific criticism? I.e., a number that is wrong? If so, please correct it. This is your encyclopedia..---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know... maybe they left out the little fact that 3 million vietnamese were genocided by the US.--Propaganda328 (talk) 20:11, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you seriously believe that an editor on Misplaced Pages will earnestly consider any source questioned by the U.S. government as reliable? Don't dream it. Go ask Jimbo Wales "I know a few sources that the U.S. government doubts. Are those sources good on their own?" Get my point? Bottom line is, it the U.S. government doesn't agree with those numbers, Misplaced Pages wont put it on regardless of how many times hell freezes over. Forget it. Let it be. 173.183.79.81 (talk) 01:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

False information, your math is wrong

1178 US soldiers died in the last 24 years? From your own source, in the past 28 years only 71 US soldiers died, so wtf. Also over 50,000 white people died, it says about 48,000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.27.224 (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Laos and Cambodia

Where are the casualty figures for these countries? They were part of the war too.

Also, there is way too much emphasis on Rummel here. Rummel is a controversial figure whose work appears to have been virtually ignored by mainstream scholarship. Gatoclass (talk) 08:05, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Total number

Shouldn't there be a total number? Casualties on all sides including civilian. Maybe even including post-war casualties due to famine, injuries and such. The total number is what I was looking for and it's not mentioned anywhere. Even a ballpark figure would be better than nothing. Is it 500.000 or 5.000.000 or 15.000.000? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudiedirkx (talk • contribs) 03:02, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

The estimates vary too widely to be stated in absolutes, but the main Vietnam War article provides the range. Population and Development Review estimates slightly less than one million Vietnamese soldiers and civilians died directly or indirectly as a consequence of the conflict; the Vietnamese government claimed over 3 million dead. Wounded is typically three times dead. In Cambodia, there were about a quarter of a million deaths (one million total casualties), according to Sliwinski, Heuveline, Kiernan, Etcheson, Banister and Johnson. In Laos, probably somewhat less than 100,000 were killed. The number is most commonly put at 1.5-2 million altogether. The war with France cost an additional 500,000 lives.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:14, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Deaths Caused by American Military section

I have added a section under that title as there was not one before but an editor seems to think that it is not needed. If there are sections for deaths caused by North/VietCong.South Vietnamese military then obviously there should be a section for the American military as they were the major power in the actual war, not to have one seems strange to say the least and also I feel biased. Maybe others would like to explain their reasons for not having a section for deaths caused by the American military.Zrdragon12 (talk) 11:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

You copied text about a CIA/South Vietnamese counter-insurgency program. The title you proposed is both not directly related and beyond the scope of the material. You should not have reverted again; your edit-warring and refusal to assume good faith is very disruptive. The deaths caused by American bombing were covered already, and you have not demonstrated the need for such a section in the first place.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 11:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you missed that the US Military were involved,it states that clearly on the wikipage for that program and in the piece I put up for starters.The title I proposed is there because there is no section named to that effect where as there are sections for Deaths caused by the South Vietnam Military and deaths caused by the North/VietCong military,so therefore there should be a section called Deaths caused by the American Military unless you want to get rid off all the other sections for the South and North. The Americans killed plenty of people there so they should have their own section, I find it weird that they have no section as they killed the most people in that war.The deaths caused by American bombing that is just below that section is for deaths in North Vietnam not south where the deaths caused American military section is. You accuse people of edit waring when that is exactly what you did, so you are edit waring and being disruptive by deleting a section that should be there for dubious reasons.Zrdragon12 (talk) 11:51, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Your comments are absurd. The Americans killed significantly fewer people than either the North or South Vietnamese. You are not adhering to the BRD cycle and have contributed nothing to this discussion except for personal attacks. The section covers the PP, and there is no need to give it some inexplicable name.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 12:16, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

My comments are certainly not absurd at all. The fact is that the debate here is why there is no section called Deaths caused by the American Military when they did cause deaths obviously. There are sections named Deaths caused by South Vietnamese military and Deaths caused by the North Vietnamese/Vietcong, so why not one about the Americans? I see no good reason to delete the section about the Americans and your argument has been feeble to say the least.The section at this present time covers the PP but I am going to add more info as I have already stated in my edits.How many people the Americans killed is neither here nor there and not part of this debate at all, you are grasping at straws. First off you claimed that the US military were not involved in the PP and you were wrong,then you claimed that deaths by American bombings are covered in the section below but that is for North Vietnam not the South Vietnam section and now you are on to the Americans killed less than the rest, all of your arguments there have nothing to do with what is being debated.You have a cheek claiming that I have personally attacked you as well, as I have not. It sure looks like you have no real argument for not having a section named Deaths caused by the American Military.Zrdragon12 (talk) 12:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Your own tendency to go off on tangents necessitates that I reply to unrelated assertions. I never said the US military "were not involved" in the PP. I questioned why the primarily South Vietnamese-run program would be attributed solely to the US military. As for the bombing of North Vietnam, deaths caused by the American military do not cease being deaths caused by the American military because of a border.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 12:50, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I have not gone off on any tangents, I have described my arguments all the way thu and it has been the same.The North and South forces both have sections of deaths caused by them so why is there not a section of deaths caused by the American military. If anything you are the one to have gone off on tangents.Also you did say the US military was not involved in your edit..and I quote:"The PP wasn't the American military". You are back on the bombings again, I have already explained it to you once. The bombings are in the section for deaths in North Vietnam and thus have nothing to do with sections about deaths in South Vietnam where I have put the deaths caused by the American military section.I see no good reason from you that there should not be a section for deaths caused by the American military.Zrdragon12 (talk) 13:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Pictures

I think we should keep a balance on the pictures, we have at the moment I believe too many showing Viet Cong atrocities and need to lose some. We have the massacre at Hue,a terrorist attack and Đắk Sơn Massacre. For the Americans we have My Lai and for the south we have the bombing of the village with the kid running naked so there is clearly a need for a NPOV to cut down on the VietCong ones or add more of the Americans and South Vietnamese which will just be too many pics altogether.Zrdragon12 (talk) 23:52, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

The massacre photos and VC bomb photos balance out the American/South Vietnamese attack photos already installed in there. Ironic how there's a call to cut down Viet Cong atrocity photos and even add more American/South Vietnamese attack photos, when there's no call to cut down on American and South Vietnamese attack photos, THAT in itself is POV... Nguyen1310 (talk) 00:00, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

How do they balance out? There are many more of them, it you wanted to balance it out then you would have the same amount not more.Why should we cut the American/South photos? There are two of them,one for each side so that is hardly a lot,one each.You have put too many Viet Cong ones in so be nice and remove some or I will.Zrdragon12 (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

VC and North Vietnamese photos account for 1 side, and in total there's 3, the Dak Son, Hue, Saigon. The South Vietnamese and US account for 1 unified side, with the My Lai, napalm, and dead VC photos, another total of 3. That's equal. Boat People occurred immediately after the war. Deleting of well-sourced material is called censorship, which is against Misplaced Pages values. Nguyen1310 (talk) 00:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

There's three of each. Let's just leave it.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:20, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Killing soldiers is not an atrocity. You have posted 3 atrocity photos for the VietCong but we only have two for the Americans/South, the other picture is for the Tet Offensive(Soldiers killed in an attack). So please remove one of yours. There are not three of each.Zrdragon12 (talk) 00:22, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Twisted logic. 2 people against 1, so is that clear enough?? Nguyen1310 (talk) 00:25, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

"One of yours?" I haven't added any photos. Why don't you just replace your "non-atrocity" photo with an atrocity photo if you feel that strongly about it?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:26, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Nguyen, two against one? Well we know how that happened,because you ran to his talkpage to ask him to come here.If you do not want to remove one then I will add one.Zrdragon12 (talk) 00:37, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Does this "legit" target mean we've lost our "balance of atrocities"? I know you're very concerned about precise mathematical equivalence....TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:30, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

US embassy is a legit target, full of US military and CIA operatives. The source states that it was an attack on the US embassy in retaliation for US bombings in North Vietnam, that is the source and all I am doing is reproducing that source. The previous description was incorrect and a POV issue,accusing the VietCong of attacking just a residential street when actually it was the US embassy.You might not like it but those are the factsZrdragon12 (talk) 01:35, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Try again, this time actually responding to my question instead of rambling off-topic. Thanks,TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:36, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes the balance is fine, the boat people make up for it.You really have nothing to talk about here on balance,as I remember you did not even want a section for deaths caused by the US military which states exactly what your function here is.Zrdragon12 (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me ZDragon, please go to the South Vietnam article and see the caption for that Saigon bombing photo. It does NOT say US embassy on there, it says a "residential area". Nguyen1310 (talk) 01:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I do not need to as I went to the source and it says that it was an attack on the US embassy,try reading it.I checked the the actual picture page and it says the US embassy as well.Zrdragon12 (talk) 01:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Here is a link to the picture page http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Scene_of_Viet_Cong_terrorist_bombing_in_Saigon,_Republic_of_Vietnam.,_1965.jpg 01:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zrdragon12 (talk • contribs)

You're violating WP:AGF. Note that I have discussed everything with you here; I have stopped reverting or editing the main page altogether. I just asked a simple question; there's no need for personal attacks.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:03, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Just telling it like it is. Do you deny that you argued against having a section about deaths caused by the US military? Anyway it would be hard for you to deny it as it is just above this section.I would assume good faith but the evidence is against you. I mean how long have you been editing this article? A long time I expect and not once did you think to put in a section on deaths caused by the American military. Anyway if you think that I have attacked you then I apologise.Zrdragon12 (talk) 02:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Wiki editors sources

Inclusion of sources that have not been properly written is causing this article problems. So please write your sources out properly so that they are not just raw url's. Also when adding a PDF file as a source I suggest putting in a page number so all can see what is actually being referenced. You added a 113 page PDF for your claims about NVA/VC wearing civilians clothes,do you expect everyone to wade thru 113 pages of a Rand report to find what you have sourced?Zrdragon12 (talk) 05:43, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

If this is just about him, it would be more appropriate to discuss it on his talk page. However, as mentioned, the citations for Rummel are seriously screwed up as well.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Well I guess it can apply to everyone who edits here but I have spent some time sorting out his raw links into something readable.The Rummel figures are a real pain and not just the sources. Zrdragon12 (talk) 05:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Use of the term Insurgency

Obviously this is a fairly new term,probably arrived since the Iraq war in conventional use.To be insurgents you need to be fighting against the recognised government of a country. South Vietnam was not recognised by the UN at all. Vietnam was divided in the 1954 Geneva accords on a temp basis until 1956 when elections should have been held. The Americans and Diem did not want elections held as Ho Chi Minh would have won them so they set up the South Vietnam state. The people fighting against that were Vietnamese so they were not insurgents against any recognised government,it was a civil war that had been going on since the end of WW2.Please provide you thoughts or evidence that states otherwise

The Geneva Agreements, which were issued on July 21, 1954, carefully worded the division of northern and southern Vietnam as a "provisional military demarcation line", "on either side of which the forces of the two parties shall be regrouped after their withdrawal". To specifically put aside any notion that it was a partition, they further stated, in the Final Declaration, Article 6: "The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the agreement relating to Vietnam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary"..Zrdragon12 (talk) 19:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognized as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents. Zrdragon12 (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Boat people and famine

These figures cannot be suppressed as coincidental to the war's result. The sources cited clearly link them. It's not as though people were going on boats for a vacation; the entire ethnic Chinese community was expelled and forced onto the boats.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

The Chinese were expelled due to the Chinese Viet war not because of the Vietnam war.You changed the title heading and that title heading excluded them, now I see you have changed the title heading again Zrdragon12 (talk) 22:31, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Zrdragon, not only Chinese-Viet people fled the country, many Vietnamese civilians, who had no ties to the Saigon govt, fled too, look at Little Saigon for example, so all of a sudden i'm Chinese-Vietnamese??? Nguyen1310 (talk) 22:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I was expressing an opinion on the other editors claims that ethnic Chinese were expelled,I was pointing out that was after the Vietnam war and had to do with the war with China. I thought I put it simple enough for anyone to understand.Zrdragon12 (talk) 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

He's not saying that. However, he is defending the expulsion of the Chinese. Zdragon, would you defend the internment of Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Please do not try to put words in my mouth, I have not defended anything. You brought up the ethnic Chinese and I point out that they were removed because of the Chinese Viet war not the Vietnam war.Zrdragon12 (talk) 22:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

By any standard, these were post-war deaths related to power consolidation by the communist regime. Removing the facts and then reminding us that China wrongly attacked Vietnam seems like apologetics.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:00, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

This whole talk page thing comes down to you changing the head titles so that things that were already in there did not then fit the head title description. So if you had not down that then there would be no debate. Now that you have again changed the head title to one that encompasses the boat people I see no point for further discussion. The famine had two references in two sentences in one section, I removed one because two were not needed obviously, you are your buddy kept putting it back for no good reason so then I left it there and removed the other one.Now what is there is fine since you made a compromise.So do not come here like I am in the wrong when you caused all the problems Zrdragon12 (talk) 23:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

1. Statistical information about casualties of the Vietnam Conflict, US National Archives
2. US Military Operations: Casualty Breakdown
3. The Vietnam-Era Prisoner-of-War/Missing-in-Action Database, Vietnam-Era Unaccounted for Statistical Report, CURRENT AS OF: November 7, 2001, Library of Congress