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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Johann Hari article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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The following Misplaced Pages contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. David r from meth productions (talk · contribs) / Johann Hari / Template:Connected contributor This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. This user has been banned and may therefore be reverted on sight.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "We Lefties shouldn't be so quick to forgive Johann Hari". The Daily Telegraph. 19 September 2011. Far more damaging, to my mind, than the plagiarism (and it is plagiarism, whether third degree, first degree, or plagiarism by misadventure) is the "sockpuppetry" – internet slang for creating a false identity online for deceitful purposes. Hari created at least one such identity on Misplaced Pages and elsewhere, called David Rose. This Rose repeatedly edited out those parts of Hari's Misplaced Pages entry that he didn't like, and those of various heroes and friends of his.

Updates?

Any news on whether Hari is returning to work at the Indie? I thought he was supposed to be coming back in January, and it's now March. A journalist friend suggested he's just been quietly shoved off to pasture. I was just wondering if there was anything citable shedding light? BearAllen (talk) 14:26, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, scrap that, failed to notice someone has updated. My error. BearAllen (talk) 14:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

One of Hari's victims has referred to paedophile pornography written by 'David Rose'. Any indications of sources of this material? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100096260/i-fell-out-with-johann-hari-–-then-david-rose-started-tampering-viciously-with-my-wikipedia-entry/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelPWSmith (talk • contribs) 21:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Is that a question or are you suggesting it goes in the article? If it's a question, I'm not aware of anything other than that blog post. I'd have thought a web search would be your best bet. If you're suggesting it goes in the article... are you kidding me? Claiming Hari has written paedophile pornography, using a pseudonym, in a WP:BLP? The main source being a 2011 blog post?? --Merlinme (talk) 11:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

An article in The Daily Telegraph as cited does seem a reasonable source. As with Jimmy Saville, once someone goes public with these allegations in a respectable news source, we should be wary of covering them up. MichaelPWSmith — Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelPWSmith (talk • contribs) 19:17, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The actual source of this story is a bit tricky. David Allen Green, as part of his investigation into the David Rose thing, got a computer expert he knows to see if the email address David R gave out on Wiki was used anywhere else on the internet, and what that might reveal. Using means that are clearly beyond the average user, he discovered that the email address was used as a log-in to publish the above mentioned paedophile-incest story on some website. That's something of a BLP minefield.

Hari only opaquely admitted to being David Rose, never specifically or overtly. David Allen Green is a lawyer and likely to be rather careful about libelling people on his blog, so the details are likely to be entirely true but the source is still opaque and hard (impossible?) to verify. This is probably why the papers gave this aspect of the story a wide berth. Likely true but very murky and probably best left alone. BearAllen (talk) 10:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

1. According to this article in The Independent, Hari has admitted to being David Rose, the Misplaced Pages one anyway:
2. However David Allen Green himself has now removed the detail of the porn connection from his blog: noting: "There is a distinction between criminal acts and their fictional representation. A murder novel is not an endorsement of murder in real life. It is entirely right that sexual acts with minors are criminalized and harshly punished. But that does not mean, say, the novel Lolita should also be criminalized." In the same post Green specifically disowns the purpose which Odone used it for in her blog, i.e. to attack Hari. He also notes in the original article: that "some porn connection to the email address {...} does not prove that he wrote it or was in any way aware of it in any detail."
3. So what have we got? A connection between an email address associated with Hari and some porn which many people would find distasteful but which was not illegal. There is absolutely no definitive proof that Hari wrote it, as Green himself acknowledges, and as a good liberal who believes in free speech Green personally does not think the writing of non-illegal porn is particularly noteworthy. In the end, in the absence of any definitive proof that Hari actually wrote it, this is essentially gossip.
4. I take your point about Savile, but as Green himself notes there is a very big difference between writing about something and doing it. In the case of Savile there were apparently lots of rumours and accusations that he was engaged in inappropriate behaviour with young girls. In the case of Hari we have an unproven connection with the act of writing some dubious but legal porn.
5. Even if this were the article for Savile, Misplaced Pages is never going to be the place to break stories. We don't have the resources for investigative journalism, we don't have the libel lawyers, and we certainly don't have the editorial staff necessary to decide whether something can be printed. The decision will therefore always err on the side of not printing anything potentially libellous, even more than in traditional media. --Merlinme (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Labelling

See WP:BLPCAT:

Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources.

At this point, I have not found a source for Hari specifically self-identifying as "LGBT" which means that "outside lists" so labelling him are not sufficient per Misplaced Pages policy. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is one of many, in this case from the opening of a piece by Hari for The Huffington Post now cited in the article:

This is a taboo topic for a gay left-wing man like me to touch, but there has always been a weird, disproportionate overlap between homosexuality and fascism.

Philip Cross (talk) 23:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Glad to see one now being furnished - I trust you see why such a source is required. Collect (talk) 23:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Political views section

Just tidied up a bit; I took out the 'classical liberal positions' bit, as it seems that enough people were upset by it. I wrote it originally to mean liberal in a popular english language way, rather than a political history way, and it doesn't need to stay, so I've chopped it out. Also I've chopped out the gay rights bit with the accompanying citation, as the way I've restructured the para put the gay rights citation next to the gay man citation, making it seem redundant to my jaundiced eye. If anyone objects then the axed citation could go in as another cite in the gay man part (as if it needed another one...)FelixFelix 08:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Introductory section

The intro to this article is ridiculous. The first line lauds Hari's "successful, award winning career" when his career is now in the toilet, and he's been obliged to hand many of his awards back. I have removed this claim, however I leave it to more experienced Wikipedians to fix the rest of this article, which seems to go to extraordinary lengths to hide the known details of Hari's dishonesty below a lot of fluff about which school he went to. Only when you read to the end of the page, well below the fold, does the scale of Hari's dishonesty become apparent. Contrast the Jayson Blair entry (another fabricating journalist.) Hari's offences also include the protracted gaming of Misplaced Pages using sockpuppets on his own page and elsewhere. Surely Misplaced Pages now has a responsibility to redress the partiality of this entire entry. 1.4.148.11 (talk) 06:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Read WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. We have an obligation to obey both. Hari might be Satan incarnate, but we are bound by the very foundations of Misplaced Pages to follow the policies named. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:02, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I added the "successful, award-winning career" ref as, prior to the scandal breaking, Hari was probably the most decorated and successful young journalist in Britain. A sort of "wunderkind" in the trade. Which made his fall all the more sensational. These are the key ideas of his career which need to be reflected in the lead. Jprw (talk) 13:44, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm opposed to the fluff in the first sentence - there are far more notable and real award-winning authors who aren't defined that way in the first sentence of their bio articles. See Thomas Friedman (three Pulitzers) and Fareed Zakaria (Padma Bhushan) for a couple of examples of journalist who have won truly notable awards. If anything, the first sentence should be the main way that they are perceived. Right now it's simply as a British journalist, similar to the two examples I mentioned. If you google news articles from the last year, you see "disgraced" more commonly used than "award-winning." I'm not going to edit-war over it, but a compromise might be that he "had a successful, award-winning career before admitting to plagiarism, etc." Or to add the positive stuff in the context of the following sentences. That's all I'll say, as this isn't as important to me as it seems to be to others. First Light (talk) 15:11, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

First Light's suggestion of "Successful ?award winning? career before admitting to plagiarism", with or without the words "award winning", looks a reasonable approach to me. Some editors have suggested that the lead should concentrate more on what he is notable for, i.e. plagiarism. However that seems harsh; he was notable well before the plagiarism accusations, and I certainly don't think the lead should focus on those accusations to the exclusion of everything else. --Merlinme (talk) 16:27, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Have reworded so that the first sentence in the lead includes both the awards and the downfall. Straw Cat (talk) 22:49, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I've trimmed out the fluff from the lede again-it's completely redundant, and somewhat subjective. His career before his fall is adequately detailed in the text; this article has chronically and fairly shamefully gathered fluff throughout its career, lets keep it crisp, concise and factual.FelixFelix 09:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

But is it redundant? Hari is primarily known for two things: 1) being the rising star (wunderkind / enfant terrible, take your pick) of UK journalism, various awards being showered on him by various organisations, etc. and 2) having his career cut short by scandal. The trouble with the revised wording is that 1) above is not reflected. Jprw (talk) 11:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Added your "rising star" bit followed by his subsequent downfall (not to sound too dramatic). I also switched from the "akward voice" to the passive voice - there is no reason for him to "be suspended from" and "surrender his award" in the same clause when he can suffer both actions and "be stripped of" instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.113.199.3 (talk) 12:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I prefer the earlier version. First of all, "praise and recognition at an early age" makes him sound like some 5-year old journalism savant. And "earned" is rather self-serving and not exactly neutral. He is most notable for the plagiarism and attacks - that should be mentioned first, front and center, rather than "He earned praise and recognition at an early age." First Light (talk) 00:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I streamlined it to "Following early success..." and put the suspensions first after that, since they more clearly address that early success and the mention in the first sentence of being a columnist at The Independent. First Light (talk) 01:02, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I was trying to give heed to the calls for having both his ascent and descent in the lede. I think "early success" is just as self-serving as "earned"; perhaps "received recognition" would be more neutral as it does not imply he deserved or conquered it. But I can live with your changes, I think it is better now, so I will leave it up to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.113.199.3 (talk) 02:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave it as is, and let others give their opinion on this, since this well-watched page has traditionally worked with the consensus of more than one or two editors. First Light (talk) 14:26, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Excessive length of Journalistic Controversy section

The size of the "Journalistic Controversy" section seems out of proportion to the rest of the article. For a figure whose career can be summarised in two short paragraphs, having a section on the scandal that destroyed his career that is around ten times that in length seems excessive and slightly odd. The return of the Orwell prize could be adequately summarised in two sentences, without the need for an entire section. Likewise there is no need for five paragraphs on the apology and criticism of it - it would suffice to say he apologised, a brief outline of it and the fact that the individuals concerned claim to not have received a personal apology. There is no need for the minutiae of who said what and when, and it looks like fluff.

I suggest a section on the plagiarism, a section on the sockpuppetry and a section on the fallout from these. We could lose over half of what is there currently and not lose any important information - only be left with a clearer article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.144.188.201 (talk) 14:44, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

In this edit someone with the IP 109.144.254.183 added as extended passage last week about Hari's carrer. I allowed most of it to stand. You are quite right that the article is now unbalanced in its emphasis. I did not allow the following to stand, and the notice : "in 2010 he was named as one of the twenty most powerful gay men in the world. by the Dutch magazine Winq." Obviously, this a blog like this is not a reliable source. I checked the earlier IP at the time, and found that it appeared to be from an internet cafe in London. The more recent IP looks as though it is from the same block. Philip Cross (talk) 15:08, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I am the same person who made the edit last week but I am not posting from an internet cafe in London - I am in a house in Bristol. The addition I made in the previous week was an attempt to rebalance the article by increasing the section on Hari's career - it was a short section that had been previously removed but was still relevant. However, I feel that since his career is fairly short and relatively insignificant, that the two short paragraphs are an appropriate length for a summary of his career, so the article is better rebalanced by shortening the criticism section to something more succinct - hence this addition to the discussion section. 109.144.188.201 (talk) 15:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I am going to go ahead and attempt to make the Journalistic controversy section shorter, while not losing an important information. Hopefully this will make the article more balanced, relative to the size of the section on his career. Atshal (talk) 13:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I've cut it down quite a bit, making it more readable and to the point. The important information is still there, but the article is in proportion to the length of Hari's career section.Atshal (talk) 14:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Hang on, let's get consensus before deleting massive amounts of cited content. The controversy is what gives most notability, other than that he's not really that notable a journalist. GimliDotNet 14:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The only other editor (PhillCross) agreed it was unbalanced and nobody else has replied in over a week. The controversy section is ten times the career section, which is fairly absurd in itself, as well as the section having a huge amount of fluff in it and being fairly unreadable.Atshal (talk) 14:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I thought on the whole the cuts were an improvement. I thought the Orwell Prize section was too short though, as that was a major part of the controversy. I'll make an edit now. I would suggest to Atshal though that according to WP:Bold, Revert, Discuss, having made a bold edit which was immediately reverted they should now be discussing here, not reverting to their version. --Merlinme (talk) 15:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I've taken a look at that article now. I waited about a week before making the change because there was no discussion here. Looks like there might be now though, so lets wait and see what people think.Atshal (talk) 15:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

To clarify my point of view, I thought the cuts were largely good, as I don't see the need to discuss in-depth the investigations of every single accusation of plagiarism made against him. However I thought the cuts to the Orwell Prize section went too far, as that was a major part of the controversy (that he had received a major journalism prize based in part on an article which turned out to be largely plagiarised from a Der Spiegel article, his main original "contributions" being to make the story more sensationalist and less accurate). --Merlinme (talk) 15:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Feel free to build on what I did before if you like and improve the Orwell prize discussion. Will be interested to see what come up with.Atshal (talk) 15:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

"The only other editor (PhillCross) agreed it was unbalanced". I did not advocate cuts. In fact I think there should be more about Hari's earlier career, but without suggesting (to use Nick Cohen's reference to the sock-puppetry of 'David r') that "the effect of Misplaced Pages is to make seem one of the essential writers of our times." Philip Cross (talk) 15:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the article does need trimming, not to bring it into any form of balance, the plagiarism et. all is what he is most famous for, the other career stuff isn't really notable when you remove the prizes he had to give back. The plagiarism section does tail off into a bit trivia ish / listy style certainly the last 3 sentences could be removed GimliDotNet 16:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the section that discusses the plagiarism is fairly unreadable and filled with fairly irrelevant opinions of various parties. If people want to leave it like that then fine, but I doubt anyone will want to trawl through and read it ever. Also, I do not agree that Hari is only famous for plagiarism - the very fact that his indiscretions were a big story was because he was a regular columnist in a major UK broadsheet for the best part of a decade, along with a bunch of other publications, and he was extremely well known for this. I think there used to be a bunch more about him and his career, but it has been deleted over the years.Atshal (talk) 13:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, he was a reporter for a the smallest mainstream national newspaper in the UK, aside from the controversy he'd deserve nothing more than a footnote. GimliDotNet 15:12, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, if he was not a reasonably prominent figure then the plagiarism/wiki scandals would have not had such an impact. He was a "darling of the left" and regularly published in a whole range of high profile publications - New Statesman, Guardian, Le Monde, New York Times - over the span of 10 years, was a common "talking head" on TV and interviewed a whole bunch of prominent people (e.g. Tony Blair, the Dalai Lama). Either he was a significant media figure, or the scandal was not significant - I don't believe it can be both ways.

What the case is, I am not really passionate enough about it to pursue it. I feel the article is fairly unreadable now and feel my shortened version is far better in that respect, but if people would prefer to leave it as is then there is nothing I can really do about it.Atshal (talk) 16:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Do not say "With all due respect". Also, creating another sockpuppet might help if you think your viewpoint doesn't have enough adherents. Just an idea. Of couse, it's against policy-schmolicy. --78.35.245.142 (talk) 19:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, I do not understand why you are posting here, if you have nothing constructive to say about the article. Or indeed, anything to say about the article at all... Atshal (talk) 19:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Whereas you probably have too much to say about the article. I've asked you a simple question. Answer it. --78.35.245.142 (talk) 21:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Atshal has deleted said question without answering: . --Merlinme (talk) 11:15, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

An anonymous user accusing me of being a sockpuppet without any justification or evidence, other than the fact I have taken an interest in this particular article, is not really worthy of a response. Especially since the anonymous user seems to have a decent idea of the workings of Misplaced Pages editing (given his link to Do not say "With all due respect"), so is likely to have an account of his own that he is choosing not to post under. Ironic. Atshal (talk) 11:52, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

So are you Johann Hari or not? Further sidestepping the question defaults to "yes". I will not publicly disclose the reasons for my suspicion, for obvious reasons. Wouldn't want to educate sockpuppeteers on how to better avoid detection. --89.0.205.78 (talk) 12:49, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

A 'yes' or 'no' answer is pointless, since the answer will obviously always be 'no' regardless of who I am. You do not have some kind of "secret" reason for being suspicious, other than the fact that I took an interest in this article and I feel the scandal section is too long in relation to the rest of the article. That is not a valid reason. If you actually suspect that I am a sockpuppet then I suggest you get in touch with an admin. They will look at the IP address I am making these posts from and find it is from an academic institution in the UK. Indeed, it will actually be possible to identify the department I am making these posts from in that institution. Unless Johann Hari has gone back to University to retrain as an applied mathematician and nobody knows about it, this means I am unlikely to be Johann Hari. Atshal (talk) 13:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

A "no" would be particularly interesting in case it's disproven. I happen to have other, less obvious reasons for my suspicion. Anyway, I've asked the question and you have answered as openly as you would. --89.0.205.78 (talk) 13:29, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Well I know that you have no other reasons, since I am not Johann Hari, and have never met him or communicated with him in any way. I guess you are just trying to cause trouble. I also suggest you sign in to your real account before making this kind of post. Atshal (talk) 13:42, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I know that you have no other reasons -- Nonsense. I said I have reasons for my suspicion other than the obvious ones you mentioned. That is the truth. I never said, as you are wrongly implying, that I have definitive proof. Otherwise I'd hardly be bringing this up on this talk page.

Also, you can hardly be surprised that someone would ask you that question. You are a very new user showing a strong interest in this article. This is one of only four articles you have edited, and one of only two which you have edited more than once. (This is not the main reason for my suspicion btw.) So please don't act all surprised. --89.0.205.78 (talk) 16:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I am going to choose to stop engaging with you after this post. I have already stated that I am making these posts from an academic institution, which Johann Hari would have no access to. Any Misplaced Pages admin can check this and can also see I am posting from a computer based in a mathematical sciences department. The other article I have shown an interest in is Gaia Hypothesis - perhaps I am James Lovelock in disguise? I believe my conduct during my short time here has been good, and any errors I have made have been due to unfamiliarity with the Misplaced Pages way of doing things - I have followed any helpful advice given to me by other editors. I find it mildly ironic that you are posting anonymously when it is likely you gave a real account, while at the same time accusing me of being a sockpuppet. Atshal (talk) 17:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'm going to add to that; if you keep harassing Atshal, 89.0.205.78, you may find yourself restricted. KillerChihuahua 17:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

My feeling would be that, while the article isn't perfect, the balance is actually pretty good. He was a reasonably prominent journalist for his age with a promising career ahead, but beyond the media bubble he wasn't really known. He certainly didn't have the prominence of a John Simpson or Charles Wheeler, say. Had his career ended for other reasons - accidental death, perhaps - I doubt his article would have been more than a few lines long, if he had an article at all.

The 'journalistic controversies', however, attracted attention beyond his normal audience and is quite possibly the primary reason a lot of people (maybe the majority?) know his name, if they do at all. The controversies themselves were quite interesting in their own right. His use of WP and other sites to both promote himself and attack others is an issue which is becoming increasingly prominent and discussion-worthy (several well-known authors have recently been caught doing similar, for instance), and the very unusual nature of his 'plagiarism' created a lot of debate, and will perhaps set a precedent. I don't think anyone had ever been accused of plagiarism in quote those circumstances. In both cases, it is either the first or one of the first prominent cases of its kind. And in both cases, the issues of exactly what happened were very complicated and need careful explanation if they're to be explained at all. Along with the fact that the controversies are probably the prime reason he's known suggests to me the balance is about right.

Also, the recent major edit reduced the article to little more than is contained in the lead. One must assume that if someone's read beyond the lead they have an interest in the detail of the subject, not just a brief overview. While that shouldn't be taken as licence to write endless pages of minutiae, if the article doesn't contain enough information to add anything more than cursory knowledge, we may as well not have the article at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BearAllen (talk • contribs) 23:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, he is still little known outside the media bubble even after the scandal, he is simply better known within the Wiki bubble because this was a story involving Misplaced Pages - hence why that section of the article is so long. I might have a go at beefing up the career section at some point, and editing the controversy section to get rid of some of the fluff but leave more than I did last time. Atshal (talk) 10:45, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I think a less drastic cut than your previous attempt is probably the way forward. I was considering having a go myself, but I don't currently have a vast amount of time for Misplaced Pages. --Merlinme (talk) 10:49, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It may be worth discussing your changes, or your rationale for what is fluff, first. If you flick through the archives you'll see it's been discussed at great length by a lot of people and I suspect anything too blunt will be reverted. BearAllen (talk) 21:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

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