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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Religion and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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Religion in Norway and by extension other Religion in articles.

There is a discussion in the talk:Religion in Norway pages on the status of the Norwegian Humanist Association and how it should be dealt with in that article. The first issue is whether a line should show for it in a bar chart and a second issue is whether the article should be renamed to reflect that legally Humanism is a "life stance" and not a religion though as far as I can see for many practical purposes it is treated like a religious denomination. I would welcome some thoughts from people actively involved in the Religion project. I note the proposed manual of style does not seem to cover Religion in articles and that might be something to address. --Erp (talk) 15:14, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Diety

A bit silly, but I'm having an argument with an editor over this article. He wanted to define all deities as supreme beings in the initial sentence (and called me adultist for suggesting a children's book wasn't a good source). Hist latest edit took my attempt at compromise, "Some religions have one supreme deity, others have multiple deities of various ranks" and added "that may be considered universally supreme by their adherents simply because they are deities, regardless of their rank." This makes no sense to me.

I've got a bigger problem with the article. Shouldn't it explain what the difference is between a 'god' and a 'deity'? If we can agree (ie find the sources) that there is one. Pagan theologian Michael York thinks there is - see Michael York: Not All Gods Are Deities and he's a reliable source, see . Dougweller (talk) 13:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That article is needs a lot of cleaning up. In my experience, haphazard and poorly citied articles encourage this sort of dispute.
For future reference, try finding relevant (and reputable) sources to support a definition under attack. One, "Sources are required for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged". Two, it requires the other party to produce counter sources of equal/better quality or stop.
—Sowlos (talk) 15:43, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Religion templates

I have proposed that Category:Religion templates be merged into its parent Category:Religion and belief templates. Please express any views you may have on the matter at the merge discussion. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 11:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Newsletter for religion/philosophy/mythology?

I was wondering what the rest of you might think of maybe trying to put out a newsletter for the religion/philosophy/mythology area, maybe something similar to MILHIST's Bugle or the Christianity Ichthus or something similar. There is a lot of overlap between the various topics, and honestly it seems to me from what I've seen a lot of material is more or less languishing in WikiProjects or groups which have little if any current activity. I don't myself know exactly what it would look like, or how to make it most effective, but I think some sort of way to draw editors who know something about the topic in general to content needing input or improvement, whether directly in their field of interest or not, might be useful for a lot of content. I am leaving notices on the talk pages of the Mythology and Philosophy WikiProjects regarding this thread as well. Anyway, I would welcome any and all responses. Thank you for your attention. John Carter (talk) 20:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a nice idea and good luck. I do have to wonder if this is the most productive location for your RfC, though. Either way, this is a persistent issue Misplaced Pages has been grappling with. See WP:Expert retention.
-Sowlos (talk) 20:09, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't think of a better place, unfortunately, except maybe the talkpages of the Mythology and Philosophy projects, which don't seem to get much more activity or attention than this one. John Carter (talk) 20:54, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Criteria

You are invited to give an opinion on this proposal Pass a Method talk 08:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The MoS

It looks like there hasn't been activity on this in over a month. Is this still current?
Sowlos (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It's still "in the process" of being considered, I guess. There is a reasonable chance that the activity might pick up a little with school starting again, I think. John Carter (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The project members still have not implemented alot of the recommendations from the talk page. Like the "Criticism sections" - as no project can dictate the types of section or where content can or cant be placed (WP:Advice pages - WP:OWN). So we have a problem - no progress - thus no talking - outsiders (non project members) are waiting to see some progress in the recommendations already there before bring up other problems. No need to keep talking if no-one is fixing anything.Moxy (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

First, we're not even sure if the proposals have consensus. And there is a fear on the part of some of wikilawyering and walls of text, which some think we may already have seen. I think similar things happened in the earlier proposal as well. Also, there was no intention of "dictation", I don't think, but maybe just indicators of "best practices" or maybe most likely or useful sections. And there might be a problem, unfortunately, of people actively resisting "fixing anything", if doing so wouldn't agree with their own opinions or beliefs. That's always been one of the biggest problems with content related to belief systems of any sort. John Carter (talk) 22:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

"First, we're not even sure if the proposals have consensus" - your in the proposal process now and need to move forward on the recommendations or the proposal will just die like that last on. Your in the process of trying to gain consensus and should try to implement the ideas of those that have commented because you guys asked them to comment. If the project is not willing to adhere to the advice from those it asked the advice from, then there is not much we can do is there. Moxy (talk) 22:54, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

True. Personally, though, I don't think that any actions taken by me as an individual would be accepted by certain parties, shall we say. In fact, I am virtually certain that some individuals would argue that any action I might take is itself clearly biased. And I don't know of any time when the project asked for input from anyone, although I think a few individual editors, like me, may have done so on their own. There is another question regarding how representative, neutral and potentially biased any of the input to date has been, including my own. Lastly, there is one matter which was, I think, one of the reasons that drew some of the other early editors in, specifically how to deal with "secular faiths" or whatever one wants to call them. Pseudoscience is a field with many of the same difficulties religion has. I would myself be very happy to see someone, almost anyone really, show an interest in taking the lead on this topic, but, like I said, I think I have already seen evidence that any input of mine, however neutral and objective I might see myself as trying to be, would be challenged by at least a few parties and, on that basis, probably not as productive as any similar contributions from others. John Carter (talk) 15:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Genesis creation narrative to Genesis creation myth

Should the title of the Genesis creation myth article be called the "Genesis creation narrative" or the "Genesis creation myth". Input welcomed here: Talk:Genesis_creation_narrative#Requested_move IRWolfie- (talk) 13:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Hunger strike RfC

Could you please join the discussion at Talk:Hunger_strike#RfC_on_inclusion_criteria. Mohamed CJ (talk) 18:25, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Editor biased against religion and specifically Christianity at religion-related articles

Will someone keep an eye on User:Pass a Method's edits to religion or religion-related articles? Or at least propose a topic ban with regard to his edits at these articles? There have been various complaints about this user's editing, not just to religion or religion-related articles, by the way. See this and this for some of the editor's other problematic editing.

With regard to religion or religion-related articles as of late, here are some problematic edits the user has made:

• Messed with the Soul article to add "mythological" to it, while removing "traditional spiritual"; this was tweaked by another editor, but "mythological" still currently remains the first descriptor.

• Removed "Christian church" and "Christianity" from the Universalism article.

• Removed the part about "church" refering to a "Christian religious institution or building."

• Added "mythological" as first description of Hell.

• At the Genesis creation narrative, stated, "I find it quite astonishing that some editors are arguing that possibly giving a negative connotation to widely-held unscientific misconceptions is somehow a bad thing. Its a GOOD thing. This show his bias.

• Biased, religion-related edits at the Golden Rule article, such as this.

• Removed Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Bible from God article. As User:Avanu stated when reverting him, "Editor shows a pattern of bias in overall edits." 94.76.201.77 (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not that bothered by many of the examples you present (for example, an image actually depicting the Golden Rule seems an improvement over an image depicting the Good Samaritan for the Golden Rule article; I'm a little surprised WikiProject Bible considers the God article relevant; and I believe given the Church of Scientology his edit to Church was appropriate because it's not just a name for Christian institutions), but John Carter seems to already keep an eye on him. Was there an attempt to discuss these issues with him? I couldn't find anything on his talk page (except a notification of this thread), at least not in the last two weeks. Huon (talk) 19:09, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

It is not just bias, it is the lack of rationality in the edits. I had told him that, John Carter did and IRWolfie did. Pass a Method makes all kinds of edits that defy rationality.... They are mostly minor edits that reduce quality, not just biased but random, useless edits, all over the place. If I drink 14 beers, then start editing, I would do the same... But I never drink 14 beers. History2007 (talk) 22:54, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

History2007, sorry for any inconvenience. Its difficult to edit rationally when the most persistent IP stalks and wp:hounds you over several months. This IP has been on my back since January and even managed to get me blocked once. I have managed to range-block this IP several times but my stalker always seems to come back 2 days later with a new proxy IP viciously harrassing me again. I have largely given up trying to battle my stalker because my stalker has more energy than me. Pass a Method talk 10:31, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

PassaMethod, you seem rather clearly in the above comment to indicate that some of your edits may not be rational. Any reasonable person would know how to deal with that problem. If you can't edit rationally, don't edit. Period. It isn't hard. You seem to rather significantly overlook the fact that several of your edits are of an extremely questionable nature. If, as I think is indicated by some of your own comments and indications of some of your earlier problems with similar editing with other topics, you consistently find your edits open to question, the most reasonable thing to do would be to open discussion of any changes before making the edits. You seem to have the energy to make several edits of a rather dubious nature, and I honestly cannot believe that the attempt to possibly use that as an excuse for your own seemingly ongoing problems of dubious edits in now multiple topics is of any use to anyone. Please focus on the quality of your own edits first. If you stop making questionable edits, it is unlikely that any "stalker" would have anything to stalk you over. John Carter (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Pass a Method, while I can understand that harrassment seems to be a problem, I still do see a bias in your contributions often. Please try to focus on making edits that are more neutral. As for this IP editor, I believe you need to be blocked immediately. PassAMethod never named the IP in his comment, but here comes someone happily stepping in and playing games. I will be following up on this. -- Avanu (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Avnu i will try. But blocking the proxy IP is pointless coz he's just gonna come back 2 days later as he's done hundreds of times. I'm pessimistic about that. Pass a Method talk 20:27, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

To any admins watching this, i would like to request removal of IP block exemption from Flyer22's account. This is per WP:IPBE which states "may be removed if concerns arise". This is in the hope of more transparancy, not a lack of good faith. Thank you Pass a Method talk 19:49, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

The appropriate venue to make such a request would be at one of the administrator noticeboards, not here. John Carter (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, but the premise here is false. I looked at the edits and they did not show bias against Christianity, just a non-Christian viewpoint. So, for example, "church" is a term used for non-Christian houses of worship, such as in the UUA. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

However, "church" is generally used by Christians. Your point about the UUA is a bit flawed, because even though they are not Christian, they grew out of a Christian background and used terms from that background. If you speak to a person from UUA, they may use the term "congregation", "society", "fellowship", etc to describe the "church". When I reverted PassAMethod's edits, I added the word "generally" to reflect the fact that "church" in English is a generally Christian word, but is also used by other groups. "Mosque" would not ordinarily be applied to a place of worship for Christians, nor would "synagogue". Each term generally reflects the faith of those who are a part of it. -- Avanu (talk) 00:00, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I was advised by email to respond here promptly, but I was three hours late to reading the email. The above just makes me sad. I've been through this already, and wouldn't risk going through it again. I'm not sure what Avanu means by "PassAMethod never named the IP in his comment," but the IP admitted to stalking Pass a Method's edits and Pass a Method decided to tie that account to me and a family member, even suggesting that I am any of the number of IPs that have stalked him. I am not. When I was originally blocked, while being guilty looked like a possibility when comparing similar article space and random support from any IP, there was evidence in favor of my innocence as well (and edit summary style was one aspect of that). The issue was complicated, which is shown in a portion of my archive that I recently commented about, and which is why, within WP:ARBCOM, "there was a range of views, and differing interpretations of events, however there wasn't a consensus to unblock." Dennis has also recently commented on this matter. Contrary to Pass a Method's statement about identical twins, even identical twins often have different interests. My brother shares some of my interests in Misplaced Pages articles, but he was mostly editing the same articles during his mission to offer support to me anonymously. Then he got bold and created an account. That one was blocked for using proxies. And months after that, he created another one, which resulted in my block. In between offering me support, he was editing articles unrelated to me.

I do believe that, in addition to my brother, there have been IPs who belong to more than one person who have complained about Pass a Method's edits more than just one time. The main offender's intent does not seem to be to stress Pass a Method out, but to draw concern to his editing patterns that have been characterized as biased and problematic in one way or another. To me, this is why the IPs don't consistently make comments about the matter on Pass a Method's talk page, but rather address others about it. Sometimes, these approaches are wrong; other times, they are fine because they are taking the matter to a WikiProject that is meant to deal with such concerns.

Pass a Method, taking away my IP block exemption will not help matters. I didn't even request it. It was suggested to me, and I accepted it. But it was really a last resort type of thing because my brother continues to edit Misplaced Pages, will not stop, and it was suggested by administrators that he create a Misplaced Pages account. I saw that as a bad idea, even if using a tag on his user page stating that he is related to me. I don't want him to feel welcomed at this site or feel that he is welcomed to communicate with me on Misplaced Pages. IP block exemption ensures that he cannot create another Misplaced Pages account under our IP address and helps to keep me better disassociated from him. With or without it, he will still be using proxies to edit whatever part of Misplaced Pages he wants to. But again, I stress that I do not believe that he has been the only IP targeting your edits. So all in all, taking away IP block exemption will hurt me. For instance, if my brother signs up for an account under a proxy, that proxy will be caught sooner or later, usually sooner, and so will the account associated with it if a WP:CheckUser comes across it. If he signs up for an account using our actual IP address, however, then that takes me along with him if he is shown to be a trouble-editor at any article. So far, he hasn't shown himself to be a trouble-editor at articles, except for any time that he followed the meatpuppet route. But I do not condone him stressing you out in the way that he has, if that is the case. And I have done everything to keep him from editing Misplaced Pages, with the exception of kicking him out. Flyer22 (talk) 00:11, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

What I meant is that the IP editor could have simply left this alone. Instead they chose to come and confront PassAMethod here and confirm that they were the editor he was referencing. Like I have said many times, we have proper venues for debate on the content that an editor adds, and we have proper venues to discuss editor conduct. Harassing someone or going personally to one editor after another is unproductive and unprofessional. I have no way of knowing if this brother of yours exists or is just a line you're feeding us, regardless, it will stop now. One thing I have a very dim view of is people bullying or acting unprofessionally in Misplaced Pages. The IP in the little show above was blocked by Dennis Brown, and I will make sure any editor who is simply harassing PassAMethod is similarly dealt with. It is one thing to have a reasonable debate about a person, quite another to hide behind a set of proxies and badger them. I don't care if it is being done with a supposedly noble goal, do things right or don't do them at all. If you and your brother both intend to continue to edit Misplaced Pages, stop the games and the shit. If you get blocked because of his actions, you will know why and you'll be paying a price for his bad actions. Make it right or don't. Now... this sideshow has completely sidetracked the point of the editor who opened this thread. Can we get back to that please? -- Avanu (talk) 00:24, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate you explaining, Avanu, and am glad that you will be looking out for any similar IP editors. As for my innocence, it's like I've stated and I have not played any "games and shit." But I've stated pretty much all I have to state about this case. Thank you. Flyer22 (talk) 00:32, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I asked you to stop the gaming occuring by your brother, who is theoretically in the same home as you. He is causing you problems by his behavior. -- Avanu (talk) 00:40, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

And all of that has been discussed at length, Avanu, which was addressed recently. Every angle has been considered. Hopefully, if he feels the need to complain about Pass a Method's edits in the future, it will be done the right way. He's stated before that if his editing directly causes problems for me, he will make sure that such problems stop. Again, I don't know if my brother is the only IP who has focused so persistently on Pass a Method, but I do believe that he is willing to stop when seeing that his editing directly affects me. Flyer22 (talk) 00:53, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

The easiest thing for him to do would be to create a personal account under his own name. Regarding PassAMethod, I think that should problematic edits from that editor continue, an RfC/U is certainly an option, and it might not be a bad idea to give those who have had problems with PassaMethod in different topic areas of wikipedia a chance to get together and try to find a way to perhaps reduce the indicidence of such problematic edits. John Carter (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are no heroes here. The IP seems to be just "out to get him". PassaMethod is not a vandal, but his edits are far less than focused. And even if blocked can be back as a new account (as many others do) and waste time again. So it is best to try to talk PassaMethod into not editing when he has had one beer too many, and getting the IP to stop chasing him... History2007 (talk) 20:16, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

New article Ethanarilism - hoax?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We have a very odd new article that fell to uncat. Does anyone have any familiarity with this claimed religion? MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Hoax. Only got 19 Google results, most of which are links to a single YouTube (comedy?) video made by apparent minors and one of which is the Misplaced Pages article. Shearonink (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Have nominated for speedy deletion as G3/hoax. Shearonink (talk) 14:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Have heard of it when researching Tibet but was referred to as Ithonerilism it seems one of the children has changed the religion to fit his name — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.23.41.104 (talk) 05:41, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

It would be more impressive if you had heard of a reliable source. Huon (talk) 09:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Lacking citation notwithstanding, that is a non-argument. One could claim any short video of a 'religion' reveling no substantial information on belief or dogma is really a relabeled or modified version of any religion.
—Sowlos (talk) 10:08, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I have also heard of Ithonerilism it is some sort of cultish Hindu thing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.23.41.104 (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

??? You're the same guy as earlier. Now it's pretty obvious you're a troll in on the hoax. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I've only been observing this discussion, but the subject at hand seems disproportionally controversial, considering how some people have sabotaged this thread somewhat. Since it seems that everything needing to be established is established, would it be acceptable to close this discussion by putting it in a blue field? Backtable _{concerning my deeds.} 21:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Religion in national symbols

This article is marked as of interest to this project, though as yet has received no rating. There is some dispute as to what the article should contain and also in relation to referencing. Perhaps some interested eds would consider putting it on their watch lists. Personally, I'm on the point of taking it off mine due to general lack of constructive input. RashersTierney (talk) 19:10, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Coelbren Rhodd

Please see this discussion concerning the notability and authenticity of this supposed Druidic catechism. Mangoe (talk) 16:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:ERA RfC on BC/AD and BCE/CE usage

There is a current RfC on the wording of WP:ERA pertaining to the usage of BCE/CE and BC/AD. I'm alerting members of this project because of your discussion of era style guidelines for your project's MOS. The original RfC was posted here, where you may follow the link to the live discussion. Thanks. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Goals for 2013?

So far as I can tell, the English wikipedia seems to be the WF site that gets the most editors, so it made sense to me to maybe start this discussion here, and maybe post links to it elsewhere to bring in additional input. But I would be interested in finding out what if any possibly achievable goals we might like to set up for 2013. This would include goals not only for wikipedia per se, but also for any other entities, like WikiQuote, WikiSource, WikiNews, etc. For the English wikipedia, I think one goal which might be both useful and somewhat reasonably achievable would be to try to have at least started articles on all the major topics relating to religion in a global sense. This would, of course, include all the specific religions as well. Knowing that the list is far from being perfect, because some articles weren't completed on time and some might well have different titles here, I would think that those topics which have articles in the Lindsay Jones Encyclopedia of Religion, which is probably the best reference work out there that deals substantively with "religion" on a global basis, could possibly get at least Start-class articles relating to them under whatever title might be appropriate here. For those of you who may not have already seen the listing of those articles, it can be found here. It does seem to me that we have most of what the editors of that work considered the major topics relating to the major religious traditions of the world already covered, with perhaps rather weaker coverage of the smaller, less globally significant ones. That is one idea, anyway. I would be interested in seeing what the rest of you think, specifically including those of you who deal primarily with content in other WF entities. John Carter (talk) 19:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

• Improvement of major articles:

1. Improving Religion, all major religions highlighted there, and all their major denominations to FA status would be good objectives.
2. If we are considering more than just WP English, doing the same for each article in all working languages of the UN, EU, and AU would be fantastic.
3. Attempting B class status for all other article linked to in User:John Carter/Religion articles would be amazing.

As for WikiQuote and WikiSource, we need to establish their deficiencies. Since their content is either right or wrong, the question is more of coverage (than quality).

—Sowlos (talk) 09:26, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

• Key goal: Get more people to watch pages. Many pages that have good content are still subject to ongoing unexplained deletions, including deletions of well referenced text and there are no where near enough people to watch them. ClueBot can do only so much, and as everyone knows not just this project, but all of Misplaced Pages has seen a migration of editors and IPS performing deletions or semi-vandals pushing fringe views now have open doors for doing what they want. Pending changes on many many articles would have been great. History2007 (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed.
—Sowlos (talk) 19:34, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree. I've had less time to watch the several on my list this year, and as a result have seen some deteriorate as described above. Part of the problem is systemic and long-standing. Without better tools, it becomes a headache (at least for non-admins) to sort through layers of bad-quality edits piled on by 1 or more PoV-pushers or outright vandals. • Astynax 16:18, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

On the issue of tools: enabling revisionjumper and the show all changes watchlist expansion help enormously (for mid and short term changes). However, as someone who patrols regularly, I must agree with Astynax. It still is a headache. We can write additional Javascript tools, browser extensions, or externally hosted web applications if there is nothing else good enough. I know I would love to be able to see portions of articles highlighted by contributor, itemized lists of contributions currently in a given article by user, percentages on who is responsible for how much of a current article, numbers on how often various editors contribute to pages, any terms that users have a habit of removing or adding, lists of users that can be generated by specific editing patterns, etcetera. The public logs do provide all the data for that and more.
On the issue of article degradation be systematic: we need to be systematic in our approach. An organised patrol task force could work. Fancy tools not withstanding, most editors are limited in how many pages they can actively patrol. Coordinating who looks at what can expand coverage or at least make us concious of gaps.
—Sowlos (talk) 17:21, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh my! Is the tool thing too scary of an undertaking? :)

I still think a patrol task force is a good idea. Perhaps liaise with the Counter-Vandalism Unit if possible.
—Sowlos (talk) 21:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• Assess all unassessed pages - There's no need for 2000+ unassessed pages under this project.
  —Sowlos (talk) 19:34, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

While some of the goals above are ones I would myself agree with, I think it is worth noting that I indicated I wanted any we propose to be rather easily achievable. It does no one any good, and might do some harm, if our goals were too ambitious. That's why I suggested bringing only the missing important articles up to "Start" class, for instance. Otherwise, I do think that, once we have an idea of what the goals are, to, maybe next month, try to figure out specific ways of trying to achieve them. But, at least for the moment, I think it is probably best to try to find objectives we have a good chance of maybe achieving, and then figuring out methods to achieve them. John Carter (talk) 22:30, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Save the later two semi-serious sub-points of my first suggestion, all the above are easily achievable over the whole year via teamwork.
—Sowlos (talk) 15:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Achievable, maybe. Likely to be achieved, based on the prior history of activity of this group, that's another matter entirely, particularly the part about working to get all the "core" articles from the EoR up to B-class level. Having myself recently developed one of those articles, Nerses IV the Gracious, using pretty much all the sources I could find on the topic in books and databanks available to me, I have to admit that I think it still probably is not a reasonable B-class. Another one I worked on as hard, Karl Beth, has even received additional work from other editors, but, honestly, still ain't much, and it is really hard to see anyone considering it "B" class. Some of the others are also apparently written about, but perhaps in sources which are unlikely to be readily available to most of us, which makes getting secondary sources problematic. Some of the other proposed goals, like getting more page watchers, and assessing unassessed pages, would require a bit clearer organization of this project. I would like to see that myself, and trying to address that is one of the things I hope to raise next month, possibly after this thread dies down. For WikiSource and WikiQuote, I tend to agree with you. At least a few of the standard sources for quotations are now so old that their early editions are in the public domain, and can thus be used freely with proper citation on WikiQuote. For WikiSource, personally, I would love to see us try to find ways to get some of the public domain reference sources on religion, like most of the early volumes of Hastings' , which I think now are public domain, on WikiSource. John Carter (talk) 16:17, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion/Notability guide

I created this essay in order to help apply WP:Notability guidelines to religious pages. What do people think? We could expand with things like a list of religions where Bishops are notable positions. We could also add a lot more to the list identifying "independent" religious news sources. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 00:37, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Updates to Eckankar Page

Hi, I am a fairly new editor with a lot to learn. I am trying to edit and clean up the page for my church, Eckankar. I have been a member of Eckanakr for 37 years and am a member of the ECK Clergy. I need help with two things - organization and removal of vandalism.

Reorganization: The page has some outdated information and is somewhat disorganized. I tried reorganizing the page, but apparently ran afoul of some rules regarding inline links and so my changes were undone. I would like to reinstate my previous changes, but do not want to start some sort of editing war.

Vandalism: Eckankar is a relatively new religion and has some detractors. The page has sections for Criticism and Related Groups. I am of the opinion that criticisms belong under the Criticism section and discussion of other religious groups belong under the Related Groups section.

There is a disgruntled former member of Eckankar who has recently started up his own small group called Akatha. Akatha members have been inserting argumentative statements into the sections on Eckankar beliefs and practices. The criticisms are phrased as if they come from an independent expert, but without citations. I have moved these comments to the Criticism section, but he/they have repeatedly undone my changes and has done so anonymously - showing only an IP address.

How can I make the organizational changes I want to make and also ensure that the vandalism stops?

Thanks. I can also be reached at steve at runfeldt.com --Sarunfeldt (talk) 19:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Religious offense

Some more eyes on this article would be useful. PamD 23:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Request for attention at La Luz del Mundo Article

Hi. I am one of three regular editors at La Luz del Mundo and I am requesting for assistance. By that I mean, I would like for editors to read the page, check sources, make sure there are no issues with the content be it original research or neutrality etc... I would also like to get the talkpage archived. It is extensive and it is a mess. In essence, I invite fresh new editors to edit the page. The current article is . There is one editor who is section blanking so in order to check its neutrality, it may be best to make sure that the diff I just provided is used to compare any version that may exist upon reading the article.

My questions about the diff are about some sections that I contributed but need other editors to evaluate:

Is the Discrimination section okay as far as Wiki policy? What about the Architecture section? Is there anything in it that would constitute the article being "Premotional?" Do you see any Original research?

Feel free to edit it if you see problems there. That would help a lot.

Thank you all for your time. I am watching this page in case there are questions. Fordx12 (talk) 02:31, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• Project-Class Religion pages
• NA-importance Religion pages
• WikiProject Religion articles