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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Green Mountain College (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Kingsrow1975 (talk · contribs)
• Vt catamount (talk · contribs)
• Crazytome (talk · contribs)
• PE2011 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

After much debate, the editors came up with a mostly satisfactory compromise on an entry about its two oxen that were scheduled to be processed for meat, due to the college's ideals of sustainability, and the ire that arose from it.

One user, PE2011, insists on including the opinions of certain groups (mostly VINE) that were involved. Many editors have argued that while they did share a general communal opinion, individual reasoning was not worthy of including in such a short and to-the-point article about what happened, especially since the media has given little coverage of their opinions. An admin has repeatedly weighed in in support of our position of exclusion, yet the user PE2011 has continued to argue ad nauseum about including the reasoning, mostly from one organization that was pretty much unknown before the controversy. Other editors have stated that there is no reason to include a specific group's opinion. Allow me to quote part on admin Qwyrxian's opinion on the subject:

"VINE's viewpoint is not significant. They're a group that tried to use this "controversy" to gain attention. They succeeded, and were oovered in some stories. We've represented their relevance to the story. Their viewpoint is not relevant. And no, we should not include all of those other viewpoints. There is no reason to include the viewpoints of any individual groups or people. Don't worry, a lot of people make this same mistake about NPOV. But if you read the whole thing, the goal of WP articles is not to include a long list of "he said, they said, she said", but, instead, to represent factually what happened. In cases where interpretation of events is relevant, we have to include various people's interpretations, taking into account WP:DUE. To be honest, PE2011, you're getting near to WP:DEADHORSE territory. And since there is a clear consensus not to include the information, it should stay out..."

Please help us end this circular, repetitive and LONG discussion that is going nowhere. Thank you.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have repeatedly tried to compromise, but the only compromise from PE2011 has been write ups that favored his opinion.

How do you think we can help?

Please help to find a common ground or end the discussion altogether. PE2011 has been engaging in an edit war simply because other editors disagree with him. The page has been temporarily locked due to this. Frankly, many of us are tired (figuratively and literally) of his almost bullying tactics to get his way and we just want to move on from the issue without living in the fear that PE2011 will continue to edit the entry to suit his whims. Please help!

Opening comments by Vt catamount

Editor PE2011 has proposed an expansion of VINE's "rationale for slaughter" within the Green Mountain College entry subsection "Oxen Slaughtering Controversy." His or her reasoning is two-fold, first that no rationale is given, and second that the VINE opposition is the "majority viewpoint." I contest both of these assumptions as follows:

From WP:NPOV - “Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.” (emphasis added).

After reviewing several of the published, reliable sources already referenced in the text, it appears that VINE's rationale for non-slaughter is in fact the option for retirement - the only sentiment I see recycled (in reliable sources) is their general "shock" at the refusal of said offer. It was the refusal of said offer that prompted what followed. The current proposal by PE2011 goes above and beyond what is required by principle, and although the language is sourced by one article (though not nationwide, as preferred), it appears that it is simply not important enough to report here. WP:SPS "if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so."

I think our biggest issue going forward is "what defines a majority" re:NPOV and UNDUE. I do not think that the opinions of VINE/petitioners are in the majority - the case is still unfolding, and the focus in reliable sources has shifted away from the complaints of the protestors (minority) and onto the absurdity of the protests (majority). This is why the existence of "threats" is so important (a previous discussion), and this is why any further rationale VINE may have for making the initial offer (beyond "retirement") is unimportant.

Finally, the rationale given for the protests in all reliable sources is the fact that 11 year old working oxen are slated to be slaughtered for dinner, which is already stated within the first line(s) of the subsection.

Thank you for your help moving forward.Vt catamount (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Crazytome

As far as I understand, the timeline of this event is: 1) GMC planned slaughter, 2) protest, 3) threats, 4) slaughter cancelled, 5) Lou was euthanized.

The portion covering the second part, the protest, is succinctly covered by a properly-sourced reference with a sentence such as "The college's decision prompted opposition from animal rights supporters from around the world, including some townspeople and thousands of online petitioners worldwide." VINE, an animal sanctuary, is included under the umbrella of "protesters," as its offer to provide a retirement home for the oxen is a form of protest to the slaughter. Other sanctuaries and individual farms offered similar accommodations but are not mentioned by name.

Furthermore, as this is the Misplaced Pages entry for Green Mountain College, it is extraneous to include VINE's perspective on the issue. It adds no substance or important information to the article and adds weight to, in this case, an unimportant party. I suggested that if this is important to VINE, they can add it to their own Misplaced Pages entry.

If the mediator determines that VINE's rationale could reasonably be included, I hold that the sentence following suggestion is sufficient: "GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school as a humane alternative, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." Retirement holds value and the phrase "humane alternative" is an effective summation. The phrase PE2011 insists on, "is not a worthy trade-off" is not a well-supported statement in and of itself. "Humane alternative" is much more effective to the common reader. My objection to it is that it is heavily-valued while holding little substance (which is not how an encyclopedia entry should be). Crazytome (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by PE2011

Some context: GMC made the decision—not yet carried out—to slaughter two of their oxen, Bill and Lou, which prompted strong opposition from the public (townspeople, animal rights supporters, and “tens of thousands” of online petitioners worldwide), thereby making this story a “controversy” between two general viewpoints: GMC’s viewpoint that B&L should be slaughtered v. the opposition viewpoint that they should not be slaughtered. WP:UNDUE “requires” “all significant viewpoints” to be fairly represented, but since that isn’t being done, I must object to the current graf.

The current graf contains an articulated rationale for slaughter (because it “align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm”), but it does not contain any articulated rationale against it—despite the opposition viewpoint numbering in the “tens of thousands” (actual phrase in graf). So my proposal was to work in a short rationale by VINE, the animal rights organization already mentioned in the graf and covered in several pieces on this controversy (e.g., in the Huffington post, NYT, Chronicle of Higher Education, NPR, and VTDigger). That articulated rationale was cited in VTDigger, the core part being (my condensation): “meat from Bill and Lou is not a worthy trade-off for their lives.” I still don’t understand why it’s so unreasonable to include this rationale into the graf; Kingsrow1975 will not explain, no matter how many times I asked him.

Furthermore, I am not necessarily wedded to the rationale specifically articulated by VINE. Another acceptable alternative (already proposed but rejected) is the rationale articulated in the care2 petition letter, the very one referenced above, which received “tens of thousands” of online signatures. For me, the overriding issue is to have some articulated rationale against slaughter--at least comparable to the articulated rationale for it--so that the opposition to slaughter viewpoint can be fairly represented, as required by WP:UNDUE. This dispute has progressed here because the so-called "majority" prefers to exclude any articulated rationale against slaughter which would balance out the articulated rationale for it. Compromise on this point is wholly unreasonable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PE2011 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Green Mountain College discussion

Hello, and welcome to dispute resolution. I see that you have discussed this on the talk page a lot, which is great as a first step. Could I ask some questions first to see where you'd like to go with this? 1. Would you just like to continue the discussion with some moderation? Or are you looking for more of a discussion partner in our volunteers? 2. Will you all be willing to agree to abstaining from any edit warring over the article until this is complete (A voluntary 1RR for example)? 3. Would the editor who is claiming appropriate sourcing please post here with links to sources for the VINE opinion, and explain why VINE is the majority when there are other organizations out there? Thanks for volunteering to bring this matter here, and I'll try to guide you as best I can. gwickwire | Leave a message 22:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello gwickwire, thanks for helping us out. To answer your questions: 1. I want whatever will solve this issue quickly. I feel like this has already been discussed soooo much; I really just want to move the process along. So whatever others want and/or you are most comfortable with. 2. I'm fine with this. Crazytome (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, gwickwire, for being a part of this. Allow me to address each of your questions: 1. I do not feel that it would be in the best interests to keep the discussion going. It has become tedious, circular and without any hope of resolution. I feel that point has long passed for any suitable conclusion. Frankly, and I cannot speak for the other editors, but PE2011's overbearing and barely compromising "my way or the highway" attitude has erased any chance of true compromise (and although he will claim otherwise that he does not do it, on his Talk page he was chastised for such behavior). However, if you feel a heavy dose of moderation would help, then heck...let's see what you can do. 2. I completely agree to abstain from edit warring, provided PE2011 does the same.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 23:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, gwickwire! 1. We're looking for more of a "discussion partner" I'd suppose, someone with experience who can weigh in on what 'deserves' inclusion in this entry. 2. I would love to abstain from edit warring! 1RR sounds fine. 3. See PE2011 post below, but please note that only one of those sources (VTDigger) includes the "viewpoint" that PE would like to include in the subsection, while the viewpoint expressed in the remainder of the sources is mirrored in the entry as it stands today. I fear further addition will change the manner of controversy and turn the entry into a mouthpiece for a separate organization, but I digress. Thanks again for getting involved. I will happily compromise on whatever is *best for the integrity of the entry*. Vt catamount (talk) 02:18, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

One methodological suggestion. During discussion, we editors should strive to articulate specific reasons why we believe certain proposals are unacceptable, rather than dismiss them without explanation. I believe this is what I’ve been doing all along: when I object to some proposal, rather than casually dismiss it out of hand, I explain why I’m against it by offering reasons – others should reciprocate in this regard. The onus can’t be entirely on me to come up with proposal after proposal when no reason is provided against my suggestions other than, essentially, “I don’t like it.” PE2011 (talk) 02:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, PE2011, I would like to suggest this rule applies to you, as well. When I articulated my reasons for not including extraneous information, you were extremely dismissive, holding that they were my "opinion" and ignoring the logical argument I laid out.Crazytome (talk) 05:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Gwickwire, your guidance is greatly appreciated, and thank you for volunteering your time in what may be a long, drawn-out process, if history is any guide. :) 1. A highly moderated discussion would be perfect, though it would also help to have substantive input from other volunteers. 2. Agreed. 3. Before posting my sources below, I want to clarify my contention: it is not that VINE is the majority organization spearheading the campaign to save Bill and Lou (although true), but that VINE’s viewpoint—the view that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority on this issue. And even if it wasn’t true (an absurd claim which I can easily refute), it is nevertheless a significant viewpoint, so some rationale against slaughter warrants inclusion. Moreover, as indicated above, I am perfectly open to accepting a rationale articulated from a source other than VINE, such as the care2 petition letter. Now for sources that mention VINE:

1. Huffingtonpost:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-friedrich/green-mountain-colleges-f_b_1967361.html

2. NYT:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/29/us/oxens-possible-slaughter-prompts-fight-in-vermont.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 (also references the care2 petition, “tens of thousands of online petitioners”)

3. Chronicle of Higher Education: http://chronicle.com/blogs/buildings/a-decision-to-slaughter-oxen-at-a-college-farm-angers-animal-rights-activists/32260 (links to the care2 petition, mentions the above huffingtonpost article, and even links to one of VINE’s open letters.)

4. NPR: http://m.npr.org/news/Science/163257176 (mentions the care2 petition—“more than 30,000 signatures from all over the world.”)

5. VTDigger: http://vtdigger.org/2012/11/04/national-animal-rights-group-blocks-slaughter-of-green-mountain-college-oxen-by-pressuring-local-slaughterhouses/ (mentions care2 petition—“47,300 signatures from across the nation and world”—that the story has been picked up by the NYT, Boston Globe, and Huffington Post, and quotes from one of VINE’s memos to GMC.)

6. TIMES ARGUS: http://www.timesargus.com/article/20121104/NEWS3003/711049932

7. Psychology Today: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201210/bill-and-lou-who-lives-who-dies-and-why

8. AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ie6N7qspIVA96Eebzwg3SOcoB6nA?docId=568d603eca1142e8a3743327e422d14b (also references care2 petition)

10. Boston Globe: http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/10/25/fire-mountain/f8mIXuOFwg201TopTbeXiK/story.html (also references care2 petition, “surpassed 25,000 signatures”)

11. one green planet: https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/superstorm-bill-and-lou-and-the-diet-for-a-sustainable-future/

13: Rutland Herald: http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20121112/NEWS01/711129970PE2011 (talk) 01:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Before I reply to PE2011's list of sources, another editor, George McD, asked that I post this statement from him in regards to this issue.

"I want to go on record for the conflict resolution, etc., that I am ok with any of the following edits that have been suggested by other editors (below). I feel that it is important to include one of them. 1) "VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, as a humane alternative. GMC refused the offer, stating that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." 2)"VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, stating that meat from Bill and Lou is not a worthy trade-off for their lives. GMC refused the offer, stating that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." 3)"VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, as a humane alternative. GMC refused the offer, stating that it did not align with their values of sustainability." Thank you. George McD (talk) 22:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)"Kingsrow1975 (talk) 02:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I have looked over all these sources and noted the mentions of VINE in them. As you can see, the vast majority of the articles simply mention the offer VINE made to GMC. Only one, maybe two, articles give any form of reasoning whatsoever. From a journalistic standpoint, the mere mention of VINE in these articles in no way implies or proves that they were in any way a major player in the issue. So, based on the evidence below, I submit that the inclusion of VINE's opinion is giving undue weight to their opinion and as such is unnecessary. Thank you.

1. Huffingtonpost:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-friedrich/green-mountain-colleges-f_b_1967361.html

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "Fortunately, VINE farm animal sanctuary has offered a loving home for the pair -- at no expense to the college."

2. NYT:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/29/us/oxens-possible-slaughter-prompts-fight-in-vermont.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 (also references the care2 petition, “tens of thousands of online petitioners”)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "An animal sanctuary in Springfield, Vt., known as Veganism Is the Next Evolution, offered to take Bill and Lou into retirement. “We thought, ‘We can solve this problem,’ ” said Pattrice Jones, a founder of the sanctuary. “It just shocks the conscience of anybody who believes in kindness to animals.”"

3. Chronicle of Higher Education: http://chronicle.com/blogs/buildings/a-decision-to-slaughter-oxen-at-a-college-farm-angers-animal-rights-activists/32260 (links to the care2 petition, mentions the above huffingtonpost article, and even links to one of VINE’s open letters.)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. It has a minor bit of reasoning, but hardly anything worth of note. - "The VINE Sanctuary in Vermont, which carries the slogan “Veganism Is the Next Evolution,” has offered to take the animals. Cheryl Wylie, a staff member there, has written an open letter to the college, arguing that “now is not the time to argue about diet or definitions of ‘sustainability.’” “The only question really should be: What is best for Bill and Lou?,” she continued. “I’m sure that, if they were able to speak for themselves at the meeting, they’d ask to be allowed retire to VINE.”"

VINE's "open letters" are mere opinion pieces and are in no way representative of the ideals of the whole movement.

4. NPR: http://m.npr.org/news/Science/163257176 (mentions the care2 petition—“more than 30,000 signatures from all over the world.”)

This mention of VINE is yet again about their offer and a bit about their disagreement, certainly not a lot of reasoning. "These two individuals have become veritable mascots for the school. They are the profile picture on the farm's Facebook page," says Miriam Jones, cofounder of Vine, an animal sanctuary in Springfield, Vt. The animal sanctuary has offered to take Bill and Lou to live there for free. Vine's Pattrice Jones says the staff was stunned when the college said no and cited sustainability as one of its reasons. "We do not believe that the way to conserve resources is to kill the elderly and disabled to prevent them from using up resources because they're not useful anymore," Jones says. "We just ethically find that repugnant."

This mention of VINE is yet again about their offer and their reaction from being denied. - "VINE offered to take Bill and Lou to live at the sanctuary for free. VINE's Pattrice Jones says they were stunned when the college said no and cited sustainability as one of their reasons."

5. VTDigger: http://vtdigger.org/2012/11/04/national-animal-rights-group-blocks-slaughter-of-green-mountain-college-oxen-by-pressuring-local-slaughterhouses/ (mentions care2 petition—“47,300 signatures from across the nation and world”—that the story has been picked up by the NYT, Boston Globe, and Huffington Post, and quotes from one of VINE’s memos to GMC.)

The first mention of anything dealing with VINE giving any sort of reasoning. - "…Veganism is the New Evolution, or VINE, to offer to take the retired oxen off of the college’s hands at no cost. VINE, which has been vocal in advocating for the animals’ lives, has posted several open letters on their blog, arguing that hamburger meat that will serve the college dining halls for just a few months is not a worthy trade-off for the lives of the two oxen. “These two members of the Green Mountain College community have gracefully and faithfully served and educated so many, and they deserve to be honored by a retirement befitting their years of dedicated service,” VINE representatives write."

There is one other mention of VINE, but it's just that they secured another sanctuary location.

VINE's "open letters" are mere opinion pieces and are in no way representative of the ideals of the whole movement.

6. TIMES ARGUS: http://www.timesargus.com/article/20121104/NEWS3003/711049932

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "It is clear to me, however, that because Bill and Lou have been offered a free home to live out their lives, they will no longer be using GMC’s resources. And if VINE is not an option GMC wants to take, there are many other working farms who would welcome Bill and Lou."

7. Psychology Today: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201210/bill-and-lou-who-lives-who-dies-and-why

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "VINE, a sanctuary near GMC, has offered to have them live there for free."

8. AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ie6N7qspIVA96Eebzwg3SOcoB6nA?docId=568d603eca1142e8a3743327e422d14b (also references care2 petition)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "The uproar began after VINE Sanctuary, which stands for veganism is the next evolution, was contacted by students and alumni who opposed the decision. It then posted an action alert on its blog asking readers to "please contact the folks at Green Mountain College and urge them to reconsider." It provided a form letter, free of threats, that readers could send to Throop. "This took off far beyond what we anticipated, not that we're unhappy," said Miriam Jones, VINE's coordinator. VINE, based in Springfield, has offered a space for the animals, which typically live 10 to 12 years but can survive up to 20 years."

9. Boston Globe: http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/10/25/fire-mountain/f8mIXuOFwg201TopTbeXiK/story.html (also references care2 petition, “surpassed 25,000 signatures”)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "Miriam Jones, coordinator and cofounder of VINE Sanctuary, said people looking to place animals generally are very happy to find a home for them, and she was shocked when Green Mountain College refused her offer to take Bill and Lou. “I really didn’t expect to hear anything but awesome when I called,” she said."

10. one green planet: https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/superstorm-bill-and-lou-and-the-diet-for-a-sustainable-future/

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "SuperStorm Bill and Lou is the internet firestorm raised by GMC’s decision to eat Bill and Lou despite the offer from Vine Sanctuary to retire them…"

11: Rutland Herald: http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20121112/NEWS01/711129970PE2011 (talk) 01:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

This is about Bill's current situation. Irrelevant. - "Miriam Jones, a member of VINE Sanctuary in Springfield (VINE stands for “veganism is the next evolution”), said Sunday that her group and other animal activists would continue to work to save Bill. “We still believe Bill should be sent to a sanctuary. Our interest, first and foremost, is Bill’s welfare,” said Jones, including proper medication, including pain medication for any ailments. Jones said animals cannot be eaten within 30 days of receiving medication, such as antibiotics or pain medication. She said her sanctuary had euthanized animals, but only after they lose their will to live and stop eating, drinking and moving. “But every animal is different,” she said. VINE, which was founded in Maryland as a sanctuary for chickens, moved to Springfield in 2010, and currently houses 27 bovines, along with chickens and a few sheep, according to its webpage. Jones said her group was concerned about the slaughter of all animals, and not just Bill and Lou. “I can’t march into Smithfield Pork and demand all their pigs,” said Jones, much as she’d like to."

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "VINE had offered to take in Bill and Lou to prevent their slaughter, but the college had steadfastly refused any offers of sanctuary."Kingsrow1975 (talk) 02:54, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I will refrain from commenting further until we hear from gwickwire about moderating our discussion (something that I now highly favor), but will just note briefly two things: (1) Again, my contention is merely that VINE’s viewpoint—that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority here (“tens of thousands” agree with it), and (2) the fact that VINE is the main AR group repeatedly mentioned in these stories about the controversy--and not in passing--belies any claim that they aren’t a “major player in the issue.” PE2011 (talk) 03:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, 1) It would be improper to assign the value that the oxen not be slaughtered to VINE, as other groups like PETA, other farm sanctuaries and, frankly, the whole of the protesters held the same belief. That said, their statement of disagreement has already been covered by the statement that they protested the action (they would not have protested had they not held the belief that B&L should have gone to sanctuary), and 2) A common mention in different news articles does not indicate weight of voice. Any cub reporter worth their salt would have mentioned VINE because they made the initial offer and as such, it's a pertinent element in the history of the story, and that's it. Given the evidence that the vast majority of articles only mentioned VINE's original offer, you cannot glean importance from that. To be honest, if anyone had the "weight of voice" it would have been the general protesters themselves. They were the ones that protested GMC, the Vermont governor's office, Division of Tourism, etc..Kingsrow1975 (talk) 03:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

PE2011, for formatting reasons I am putting this down here rather than figure out how to include it above. You stated earlier that "I want to clarify my contention: it is not that VINE is the majority organization spearheading the campaign to save Bill and Lou (although true), but that VINE’s viewpoint—the view that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority on this issue. ... it is ... a significant viewpoint, so some rationale against slaughter warrants inclusion." If all you require is "some" rationale, than what is wrong with the summation description of "humane alternative"? It is succinct, effective, and makes sense to the common reader. In this light, I propose the following statement: ""The college's decision prompted opposition from animal rights supporters from around the world, including some townspeople and thousands of online petitioners worldwide, who wanted a humane alternative."Crazytome (talk) 05:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Fair warning - I will contest the use of the term "humane," not just because it isn't cited in any source, but because it implies that the treatment of Bill and Lou was at some point not humane. This is contradicted by the referenced texts; the Secretary of Agriculture states specifically that the actions of Cerridwen Farm at GMC were "not inhumane", and the school was determined to use an AWA Humane-certified slaughterhouse. We should not use charged terminology as a catch-all. But, again, I believe that the line in question involves the reason for the offer (retirement) and the reason for the denial (doesn't align), so I stand the ground that no further expansion of any given viewpoint is necessary.Vt catamount (talk) 15:51, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

A brief note (to help guide volunteers): I want to emphasize that a highly moderated discussion would be preferable, and it should focus on resolving two distinct issues. (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? (2) If so, what articulated rationale should be included? We should first focus on achieving consensus on (1) before moving onto (2) – that is, discussing specific proposals. Thank you.PE2011 (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Re #1, no. There is no reason to include the viewpoints of any individual groups or people. The goal of WP articles is to represent factually what happened. In cases where interpretation of events is relevant, we have to include various people's interpretations. But there's no dispute about what occurred here. Flyte35 (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Re #1, I agree with Flyte35. VINE's particular perspective (and inclusion) is irrelevant to the basic facts of the timeline and it is not necessary for language to include their "influence." Furthermore, it is not appropriate to include one specific organization at the expense of others who did or said similar things.Crazytome (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Another brief note to volunteers: the focus of the current dispute is merely about including or excluding some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter—it should NOT be about sneaking in, as Crazytome appears to be doing, prior graf language that has already been rejected. Crazytome’s above proposal significantly changes the third sentence of the current graf to his preferred (and rejected) version. To keep the moderated discussion focused, no proposals of any kind should be considered other than ones relevant to the current dispute. Please watch out for his antics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PE2011 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The language I used was only rejected by you. If one can wade through the talk page, it is obvious that you favor language that over-inflates the animal rights/VINE perspective and the actual size and scale of the protest. Other editors favored language that was more succinct overall and the above suggested sentence you are accusing of being "sneaky" would read as "The college's decision prompted international opposition from animal rights supporters, who wanted a humane alternative" instead." A consensus was never actually reached on this issue; you just argued it until the conversation picked up surrounding other parts of the paragraph. This particular section may not be why this dispute was opened, but it does illustrate a major reason why the dispute had to be opened. Crazytome (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Crazytome, your proposed version was NOT only rejected by me but other editors as well (including, I believe, Kingsrow1975 - but he/she can correct me if I'm mistaken). My point is, let's not litigate anything that isn't specifically about the current dispute, which is whether some articulated rationale against slaughter should be included. Again the issues are: (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? (2) If so, what articulated rationale should be included? Your issue, if you want to pursue it, is one for another day in another forum. PE2011 (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think your assessment of the situation is more of less correct, Crazytome, but I think in order to move forward in the most responsible (and more rapid) way it is best to limit the discussion to (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? (2) If so, what articulated rationale should be included? The current graf reads:

The college made national headlines in the fall of 2012 over its plan to slaughter its two 11-year-old draft oxen, Bill and Lou, and serve their meat in the college dining hall. The community decision was made after Lou was injured and it was determined that Bill would not accept a new partner. GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm. The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide. The college planned to slaughter the oxen by the end of October but postponed the event, saying area slaughterhouses were deluged with protests, some of them threatening. In November, the college had Lou euthanized and buried his body off campus. Bill is slated to remain with the college.

The discussion here has to do ONLY with if a change "rationale against slaughter" should be included (and if yes, what?). Flyte35 (talk) 20:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35. Although we obviously disagree, I want to thank you for acknowledging that the current dispute here is only about (1) and (2). I look forward to your participation in this discussion.PE2011 (talk) 22:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. By making this comment, I'm not necessarily suggesting that I am going to take on this dispute: I may or may not, in equal portions. But I do want to make a comment about what's being discussed and the basis on which it is being discussed. The only proper reason or motivation for editing Misplaced Pages is to improve Misplaced Pages and to do so in accordance with its accepted norms, policies, and procedures. What I'm reading here seems to be a whole lot about whose ox is <ahem> being gored and whose position is being advanced and precious little about what's best for Misplaced Pages. To the scant extent that Misplaced Pages policy is being discussed, it's being used more as a bludgeon or totem than it is for the reasons it exists: to define what's best for Misplaced Pages. In a short article about a relatively minor college, a great deal of coverage about this incident is clearly inappropriate. What is in the article already seems to me to be perfectly adequate to note what happened. I'd like to ask, in that light, for the benefit of whatever volunteer chooses to weigh in on this case: How will Misplaced Pages be benefited by any of the edits being discussed here? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly agreed with TransporterMan. This subsection of the GMC entry is fine as is. Thank you for weighing in, TransporterMan, whether or not you decide to take on this dispute.Vt catamount (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I, too, agree with you, TransporterMan, and thank you for your input. To echo the sentiments of Vt catamount, the section is fine as is. As you stated, this is short article on the page dealing with a minor college and it does not warrant a full-blown exposé of the issue.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 21:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Transporterman, thank you for your input. I agree with you that, moving forward, any proposed edits should be discussed in light of whether they will benefit or improve Misplaced Pages, and I would like to have that (moderated) discussion. I do want to suggest one criticism of your above comment, where you said: “In a short article about a relatively minor college, a great deal of coverage about this incident is clearly inappropriate.” First, the implication seems to be that the proposed edits regarding this current resolution dispute will mean “a great deal of coverage about this incident,” which is not accurate. I do not propose adding “a great deal of coverage,” but merely a short rationale against slaughter. Short. Second, although GMC may be a “relatively minor college,” this story is a relatively big story for GMC. Both the Boston Globe and NYT recently reported on the story again (after Lou was euthanized). I believe it’s more appropriate to judge inclusion based on how big the story is, not on how big the rest of GMC’s wikipedia page is. Once again, thank you for weighing in. PE2011 (talk) 22:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

As TransporterMan said, you must ask yourself, "What is best for Misplaced Pages?" The article as it stands is a clear, concise paragraph that deals with the issue, which was and is this: 1. GMC plans slaughter, 2. VINE offers sanctuary, 3. GMC refuses, 4. people get angry and protest, 5. slaughter postponed due to protests and threats against said slaughterhouses and 6. GMC euthanizes Lou. That's it. That's all that the story needs to tell as those are the facts. The rationale against GMC's decision is already in the article, though unstated: Those protesting GMC's decision feel/felt that they would be better served at sanctuary. The reader can easily infer that is why they protested. As another mod said on the GMC:Talk page, Misplaced Pages articles should not include a bunch of "He said, they said, she said, they said" fluff as it is just that - filler. This article, as it stands, is free of such fluff and should stay free of it. Furthermore, reporting the story again after the ox was euthanized does not mean it was a "big" story...it was just responsible journalism. On any article dealing with any topic, if new information is uncovered or there is a resolution to a a previously-reported issue, a followup article is written.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Kingsrow1975, I will refrain from discussing specifics regarding the current dispute until we have moderation, but I want to say two things: (1) Again, what I propose (and like I said, I’m open to non-VINE rationales) will hardly mean “a bunch of ‘He said, they said, she said, they said’ fluff.” Your implied characterization of my general proposal as “fluff” is a distortion. (2) A controversy that is repeatedly covered in national news qualifies as a “big story,” and notice that I said “relatively big story for GMC,” which is true. News coverage, especially national news, implies noteworthy attention.PE2011 (talk) 22:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

It's not a "big story" at all. For example, the New York Times ran TWO stories about the whole deal...the initial story and the followup about Lou's euthanasia. That hardly qualifies a story as big. That said, lest I be consumed into the tactic you exhibited on the Green Mountain:Talk page of using circular arguments to try to wear down your opposition, I will comment no more until a moderator steps in.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 22:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Kingsrow1975, I must say the following. Two stories in the NYT is, in itself, pretty significant, but add to that coverage in Huffingtonpost (multiple times), Boston Globe (multiple times), NPR, Psychology Today, USA Today, The Chronicle of Higher Education, and the rest I mentioned above (and some I didn't mention). How many stories can you say that about? How many GMC stories not about B&L can you say that about? At the very least, this story is "big" for GMC. PE2011 (talk) 23:15, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

PE2011, I agree that this is a big deal for GMC. That is why, on the Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry, information about Green Mountain College is relevant. Information about VINE, Farm Sanctuary, PETA, random protesters, and 'petitioners' is not.Crazytome (talk) 03:10, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, it's kinda important, we get it. That's why the B&L graf is in the article. The question at hand is: Should any articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? Let's focus here. We've had the freewheeling discussion over at the talk page already.Flyte35 (talk) 23:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35. Again, thank you for acknowledging this point: I didn’t mean to go into a long discussion on why this controversy is important, but I felt compelled to given previous skeptical comments. Unlike you, some editors do not "get it." I agree we should concentrate specifically on the two issues pertinent to this current dispute.PE2011 (talk) 23:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35, no, there is no need for any articulated rationale against the slaughter in the article. It is not necessary to the Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry. It adds nothing of value *about Green Mountain College* to the Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry. GMC does not have official perspectives on veganism, vegetarianism, or why it isn't okay to slaughter farm animals, so anything related to that is the agenda of other organizations or people and is therefore inappropriate to spend words on in the *Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry.* Those ideas can go on other entries, about other groups that *do* have those official positions. Crazytome (talk) 03:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you 100%. The incident is fully explained as is. There is, as far as I can see it, no need for any more information in the grapf.Flyte35 (talk) 03:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello again. I do send my sincerest apologies for not replying sooner, I had some other issues to take care of. Basically your discussion seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) to be mainly about the inclusion of the viewpoint, and if it is included, what form the inclusion should take. Is that correct? I'll try to "heavily moderate" but to help me do that I need to ask a favor. Could each person involved please only post once before a reply from me or another volunteer? That way I have time to moderate as requested without it getting out of hand. Lastly, could I get a brief overview of only facts about the events that transpired with this college/animal? I only want facts. No need to source right now, but if someone puts up something that isn't fact, feel free to use your one post at a time to correct them (in a new comment). Thanks, and I do await your replies. gwickwire | Leave a message 22:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct. The dispute here is about about the inclusion of the viewpoint (why the animals should not be slaughtered), and if it is included, what form the inclusion should take. The facts are that one ox on the campus farm got hurt, the college decided to slaughter the pair of oxen and serve the meat on campus. An animal sanctuary offered to take the oxen and care for them, at no cost to the college. People (students, outside animal rights activists) protested the slaughter. Green Mountain College said it would still slaughter the animals and serve their meat on campus, because that's how sustainable farms work. GMC eventually euthanized the injured ox (and buried the body off campus). The other ox continues to live on the farm.Flyte35 (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

So if I am correct the slaughter never happened? And the viewpoint in question is about the slaughter? gwickwire | Leave a message 02:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Gwickwire, thank you. You are correct in your understanding—though I’ll add, just for precision, that the discussion is about whether to include an articulated rationale for the viewpoint that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered, and if so, what articulation warrants inclusion. Put another way, there are two competing viewpoints: (A) Bill and Lou should be slaughtered, and (B) Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered. My contention is that some articulated rationale for (B) warrants inclusion. And yes, you are correct that the slaughter has not happened (Lou has been euthanized and Bill continues to live on GMC’s farm, for now). Regarding the bare facts, Flyte35’s above summary is accurate.PE2011 (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, could you further define the concept of "articulated rationale" and how it differs from including what organization had what viewpoint? The way I understand that concept is including the reasons why each could be right, am I right in this understanding?

What I mean by “articulated rationale” is the rationale actually articulated in favor of a viewpoint as described in a source. For instance, the articulated rationale for (A) is that slaughter “align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm,” and that graf language is lifted virtually verbatim from the NYT. So the concept isn’t entirely different from “what organization had what viewpoint.” If some organization O is reported, in a source, as providing some rationale R in favor of a certain viewpoint, then the “articulated rationale” is R. Does that clarify?PE2011 (talk) 02:52, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello, gwickwire! Thanks for attending to this matter. Feel free to indent this comment, it just doesn't seem to follow the route PE is taking so I'm placing it here. To be frank, I believe that PE2011 is insisting on articulating the Animal Rights perspective within this entry, and I firmly believe this goes against the very concept of Misplaced Pages. The article is fine as it stands, the sources are excellent, and heck, the very nature of the controversy is rapidly changing; it's no longer about slaughter "being bad," it's about the absurdity of the protest and the abuse of a college farm by a vocal, online group of Animal Rights activists. Even so, the facts remain, and the facts have already been stated concisely in the entry. Thank you again.Vt catamount (talk) 03:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35 is correct. The article as it stands quite sufficiently and succinctly tells the story in an encyclopedic style. 1. Lou gets injured, 2. GMC elects to slaughter the oxen, 3. VINE offers sanctuary, 4. GMC refuses, 5. Protesters, well, protest, 6. The slaughter is postponed due to protests and threats against slaughterhouses, 7. Lou is euthanized. PE2011's attempt to add an "articulated rationale" is unnecessary as the article tells the story quite well. Frankly, the "articulated rationale" PE2011 insists on is nothing more than an attempt to get an animal rights voice in a place where it doesn't belong.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 03:12, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

As it stands right now there is not any mention of VINE in the article, correct? If there is, could someone please tell me what section it's in? By the way, it's almost bedtime for me here, so I will not be able to reply until about 16 hours or so from now. Sorry! gwickwire | Leave a message 03:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Here is the article as it is written now: "The college made national headlines in the fall of 2012 over its plan to slaughter its two 11-year-old draft oxen, Bill and Lou, and serve their meat in the college dining hall. The community decision was made after Lou was injured and it was determined that Bill would not accept a new partner. GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm. The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide. The college planned to slaughter the oxen by the end of October but postponed the event, saying area slaughterhouses were deluged with protests, some of them threatening. In November, the college had Lou euthanized and buried his body off campus. Bill is slated to remain with the college."Kingsrow1975 (talk) 03:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

gwickwire: VINE is already mentioned in the current graf (see Kingsrow1975’s above response), though as I said in my opening comments and elsewhere, I am open to including an articulated rationale from some source other than VINE, such as the care2 petition letter (which received "tens of thousands" of signatures worldview). VT. Catamount: First, if you could, please abide by wikipedia’s code of conduct and refrain from labeling me and making assumptions about my motivations—argue facts, not personalities. Let’s keep our discussions focused solely on content. Second, what I’m “insisting on” is, again, inclusion of an articulated rationale against slaughter--something short--which is hardly “against the very concept of Misplaced Pages.” If you could, please refrain from making these kinds of rhetorically overblown statements. Third, according to the principles of etiquette, one should not “ignore reasonable questions.” I asked many times why including an articulated rationale against slaughter is so unreasonable but received no answer other than, essentially, "I don't like it." Fourth, I do not believe you are accurately depicting the current “nature of the controversy,” but even if you were, your comment is a complete red-herring. The rationale against slaughter has already been articulated in prior sources—that has not changed. Kingsrow1975: First, if you could, please abide by wikipedia’s code of conduct and refrain from labeling me and making assumptions about my motivations—argue facts, not personalities. Let’s keep our discussions focused solely on content. Second, according to the principles of Misplaced Pages etiquette, one should not “ignore reasonable questions.” I asked many times why having including an articulated rationale against slaughter is so unreasonable but received no answer other than, essentially, "I don't like it." Thank you. PE2011 (talk) 04:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

To facilitate discussion, without any personal attacks, I'd like to ask editors to refrain from using other editors names unless referring to a viewpoint about this discussion the editor has. I don't have time for a fullblown reply right now, I should be able to in about 12ish hours. Thanks. gwickwire | Leave a message 05:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for this suggestion, gwickire. From now on, I’ll direct my responses only to you. PE2011 (talk) 05:44, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

First, as we have gone over extensively, there is no need to include an "articulate rationale" in the article, as it already covers the topic in a succinct and straightforward manner. Furthermore, you claim you have not received a legitimate answer about why not including your "articulate rationale" is best. Answers have been given. Citing one, for example: "VINE's viewpoint is not significant. They're a group that tried to use this "controversy" to gain attention. They succeeded, and were covered in some stories. We've represented their relevance to the story. Their viewpoint is not relevant. And no, we should not include all of those other viewpoints. There is no reason to include the viewpoints of any individual groups or people. Don't worry, a lot of people make this same mistake about NPOV. But if you read the whole thing, the goal of WP articles is not to include a long list of "he said, they said, she said", but, instead, to represent factually what happened.-Qwyrxian" Second, the rationale does not have to be "articulated" as it is already in the article as-is. Sanctuary was offered and GMC refused. People then protested. Now tell me...why do you think they protested? They protested because they disagreed with GMC's position of slaughter and felt the oxen deserved the more humane sanctuary so they could live out their lives. There is your rationale. Like it or not, we have to assume some level of intelligence of the reader and in this case, any reader of average intelligence would easily "get" why they protested. Having to specifically spell it out implies that the reader isn't intelligent enough to understand what they are reading.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 05:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this. There is no merit in including the perspective or rationale of groups outside of GMC on the GMC entry. This is supposed to be a factual account of basic events, not a philosophical blow-by-blow. The reference to sustainability in this section is to remind people that the college they are reading about has an environmental mission and this tidbit is, in fact, relevant to the article. Any reference to any other group specifically is unnecessary. Protesters protested. The slaughter was cancelled. That's it. The "why" of protestors is not appropriate in this article. It can be appropriate in blog posts, op-ed pieces, biased NYTimes articles, facebook shares, or message boards. It is not appropriate in a Misplaced Pages article. In fact, as noted before by me, other sanctuaries and farms offered to take the oxen, so it could be argued that a specific reference to VINE *at all* is unnecessary. The sentence could just read "GMC declined offers by several animal sanctuaries to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school, saying that the offers did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm."Crazytome (talk) 05:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Y'all are breaking the rules. Gwickwire, we look forward to your return.Vt catamount (talk) 05:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Posting here can be confusing :( Crazytome (talk) 05:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I be sorry for mah indescretion. T'won't happen again! :)Kingsrow1975 (talk) 15:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion (you may wish to wait for another volunteer for another opinion), any controversy that can be sourced reliably has at least some place somewhere, if only as a sentence. Since this is the GMC page, maybe just a sentence saying something like "VINE (wikilinked) opposed the slaughter, and offered free sanctuary to the animals, which GMC declined." would have some place in the article. But anything more than that belongs in either the VINE article (if it exists) or an article on the controversy (if it would meet notability). Does that all make sense to the editors? gwickwire | Leave a message 19:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how this is much different from what is written. I suppose the new lines would read: cut ~>GMC declined an offer by <~cut, new sentence: VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary, **who opposed the slaughter, offered** to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school. ***GMC declined the offer,*** saying that ***it*** did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." (***indicates new text).Vt catamount (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your input.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 19:38, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, thank you.Crazytome (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi gwickwire. Any proposal from me on this controversy will be reliably sourced, and it won’t even take an extra sentence—just something short added to what’s already there. I’m not asking for more than that. Are you saying this would be okay? Since we’re been speaking abstractly on the issue, would it be helpful for you to see a specific proposal first? Or do you consider the matter closed and believe that the current graf should remain as it is?PE2011 (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with what gwickwire is saying, I guess, but I'm not really sure this clears up the question. Given the graph as it currently exists, is there any reason to add additional information? What you're saying seems to indicate it would be more appropriate to cut most of the graf from the GMC article. Is that correct? Flyte35 (talk) 20:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, how about this? It seems like all of you agree that it should be in the article, but pretty much not more than one sentence. So what I think should happen is we now shift this discussion to how to best work that sentence into the article, and take out anything more than a sentence. Are all of you okay with this approach? gwickwire | Leave a message 00:14, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

gwickwire, I’m not sure there is agreement here at all. My (general) proposal is to work in an articulated rationale against slaughter—something short, and not even an extra sentence. Everyone else seems opposed to this idea. Remember, we’re trying to resolve two distinct questions. (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included? (2) If so, what specific articulated rationale should be included? I don’t believe we’ve reached consensus on (1). But instead of resolving (1) before moving onto (2), would it be helpful for you to see a specific proposal first?PE2011 (talk) 00:25, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I think I need to see the proposal. I'm still not sure what "rationale" is needed in the article, but if I see your proposal I may understand. Likewise, if any other involved editors wish to propose an addition/deletion feel free to make one proposal so I can see where we're at, or just "second" another's proposal. gwickwire | Leave a message 00:32, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

gwickwire, before I make my specific proposal, may I ask that we keep this discussion specifically about my proposal—which is why we’re in “dispute resolution.” Any other additions or deletions should be resolved elsewhere, since no other changes to the graf is relevant to the current dispute. PE2011 (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

That's fine by me. We can keep this about yours for now. Propose away, and then I'll allow time for each other editor to make one comment before I return, if that's okay with you. To editors commenting: If you claim something, please back it up with sourcing. No need for full out {{citeweb}} here, but just the URL will do. Thanks. gwickwire | Leave a message 00:44, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, gwickwire. I look forward to comments. Again, for purposes of this “dispute resolution,” we should proceed as if there are NO objections to anything else in the graf. Below is the whole graf with my addition in bold:

The college made national headlines in the fall of 2012 over its plan to slaughter its two 11-year-old draft oxen, Bill and Lou, and serve their meat in the college dining hall. The community decision was made after Lou was injured and it was determined that Bill would not accept a new partner. GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm. The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who signed a letter urging that the two oxen, after being made to the work for 10 years, deserve to be spared and sent to a sanctuary. The college planned to slaughter the oxen by the end of October but postponed the event, saying area slaughterhouses were deluged with protests, some of them threatening. In November, the college had Lou euthanized and buried his body off campus. Bill is slated to remain with the college.

Rather than VINE, I have chosen to work in the rationale articulated in the care2 petition letter, the very letter referenced in multiple major sources--the one which received “tens of thousands” of signatures worldwide. So there should be no objection as to source.(Btw, the care2 letter explicitly mentions VINE, so VINE isn't just important because of the initial offer). My above condensation is a neutralized nutshell of the following language:

Please encourage Green Mountain College to allow Bill & Lou to be adopted by the VINE Sanctuary in Vermont where they can live out the remainder of their lives. They've worked so hard for the college for 10 years and deserve a better fate than ending up on someone's plate! PE2011 (talk) 01:14, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok we’re trying to resolve two distinct questions. (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included? (2) If so, what specific articulated rationale should be included? We haven't reached consensus on (1), so I think's it's premature to try and come up with language for articulated rational, since 2 is contingent on a yes decision for 1.Flyte35 (talk) 03:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, we all know my answer to (1) is no, that the rationale (retirement) is given and does not need to be expanded. To take from the proposed language, though, you can see how it starts to read more like WikiNews than Misplaced Pages.Vt catamount (talk) 03:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

The answer to question one is no, so question two is irrelevant.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Based on everything I see, and the text above, the bolded text does not absolutely need to be in the article. However, it does help a little with the flow. It's kind of impossible to deal with the questions seperately, because at least for me the final product will determine whether I think it should be included. gwickwire | Leave a message 03:37, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

1) No. 2) N/A. The language regarding this specific dispute are most sufficient and relevant as "GMC declined offers by several animal sanctuaries to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school, saying that the offers did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm. The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide. The college planned ..." Crazytome (talk) 03:58, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can see there is no reason to include any additional language in the graf. The paragraph currently in the article fully reflects what has occurred and is accurate and unbiased.Flyte35 (talk) 04:12, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Seconded.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 06:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

gwickwire. I’m not sure “absolute necessity” or "necessity" is the right standard here—rather, it’s “significance.” WP:UNDUE The above rationale, in bold, is a (very) significant viewpoint in this controversy. Shouldn't the issue of inclusion turn on whether this is true? Moreover, my above proposal (i) describes one of the main reasons against slaughter (because B&L deserve to be spared after 10 years of work), and (ii) describes what “tens of thousands” were urging (spare and sent to sanctuary). Both (i) and (ii) adds informative value to the content of the graf.PE2011 (talk) 06:30, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Significant to VINE, or the petition, maybe. Not significant, important, or relevant to GMC, nor necessary for GMC's wikipedia entry. I just don't see how adding in extraneous information about other organizations or people adds informative value to an article about Green Mountain College. It's like saying Siskel and Ebert preferred 'Armageddon' in a review of 'Deep Impact.' Or something. Pardon me, haven't had my coffee yet this morning.Crazytome (talk) 13:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

See, if the only thing being added is what is bolded (who signed a letter urging that the two oxen, after being made to the work for 10 years, deserve to be spared and sent to a sanctuary.), then I think that actually has a purpose in the flow. Otherwise you read "The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide...", and wonder what they were petitioning for. It is assumed the petitioners are petitioning against slaughter, but we need the bolded text in order to know what they were petitioning for. Also, I feel it helps the sentence flow better. Does this make sense? Also, a note, 1 reply at a time please :) gwickwire | Leave a message 21:02, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Even so, this brings up two factual issues: 1) the care2 petition is not a letter, and 2) no source states that townspeople signed the petition, as may be implied by inclusion of the bolded text. The existing text is pretty much verbatim from the NYT article, I'd rather not combine sources and in doing so, create new facts.Vt catamount (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

That can be fixed by a simple rewording. The sentence to be added just clarifies the protestors view. Also, verbatim? Verbatim is not allowed in Misplaced Pages, and combining sources is very much encouraged as long as it is sourced. gwickwire | Leave a message 22:52, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

The flow of the article is not only irrelevant, but subjective as well. The only thing that matters are the facts and how they are presented. As it stands, most people in this discussion seem to think that the article reads perfectly fine; however, if flow is what you're concerned with, the article could be rewritten without adding anything else, as there is no need to add any new facts to the story. Consider this: 1. Vt catamount raised a valid point in that adding that line assumes that the townspeople signed the petition (which was not a letter). There are no facts to back this up, and since it seems that there is concern about what facts to include, we cannot start assuming anything, and 2. There is no "one voice" to the petitions, due to the fact that there were multiple petitions circulated, all with differing language. Ergo, that statement must not be included. Furthermore, it does not take Kreskin to see what the protesters were fighting against. You should write articles assuming some level of intelligence of the reader...everything does not need to be spelled out. So no, what you say does not make sense and I respectfully but firmly reject your opinion.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 22:05, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Setting aside the flow, as that can be fixed, the sentence is needed to clarify the view of the petitioners. Otherwise, one is left to wonder what the petitioners actually wanted to do with the animals. The wording, like I said, can be changed (how about "signed a petition"), and the assumption that the townspeople signed the petition can be fixed. I specifically stated that we know what they're fighting against. The reader, however, does not know what the petitioners wanted instead of slaughter for meat. For all I know as a reader, they could've been fighting for them to be peacefully euthanized and buried, given away, kept, or any other outcome. I think the article needs something that will clarify the objectives of the protestor. You say there were multiple ones circulated, probably true. However, the most circulated one (I assume) that is being talked about in this point of the article should be clarified so the reader understands that this one petition was for (whatever it is they wanted). Make sense? gwickwire | Leave a message 22:52, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Why the sudden change of heart, gwickwire? Earlier you stated, "Based on everything I see, and the text above, the bolded text does not absolutely need to be in the article. However, it does help a little with the flow." Now, all of a sudden it does need the sentence? Make up your mind. Frankly, I am going to keep this one short, lest I say anything I will regret. The majority of people in this discussion are fine with the article as it is, and that is the way it will stay (for now, at least) unless something a heck of a lot better is offered in a way of a sentence addition. It should be shorter, more concise and less biased (yes, biased: "being made to work 10 years" makes the college look like heartless taskmasters) to be worthy of consideration. Anything less is unacceptable. To be honest, the longer this drags out the more I think that nothing should be on the GMC page and a complete, separate entry for this should be created.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 23:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello all. I have been traveling and unable to check in on this until now. I'm joining in to strongly urge that the language "who signed a letter urging that the two oxen, after being made to work for 10 years, deserve to be spared and sent to a sanctuary" be added to the entry. As stated, it is very important to know why so many people would sign a petition and what they were asking for. Thank you. George McD (talk) 23:25, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

(←) I should have worded that differently. What I meant was that the text did not need to be in the article persay, but I personally would have strongly considered putting it in. However, that's beside the point. How about this: will all editors agree to work on an article in someone's userspace over this controversy, making sure it meets WP:GNG and is sourced well? That way, all users can include everything in as much expansion as needs to be, and that way all are happy. Does any editor have a problem with this: make a new article solely over the controversy about the slaughter, to be titled something along the lines of "Green Mountain College slaughter controversy", in someone's userspace or at AfC and then have it moved when it is full and ready to be in the articlespace. That's my proposal for you. If someone has a problem then we can try to work something else out. gwickwire | Leave a message 23:30, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I am misunderstanding. If so, I apologize but I strongly believe that a short paragraph (such as what is there now) about this controversy belongs on the Green Mountain College page. This controversy is a significant part of GMC's history at this point and belongs on the page. I am not interested in working on a separate entry, although others may be. I think it is fair to add a few words explaining the petition, that 's it. Thank you. George McD (talk) 23:41, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

My only issue is that there isn't a consensus forming here about what to add to the page. I think it'd be best to leave the page without anything added, and then formulate a WikiLink in the GMC article to the new page. I'm still awaiting the other editors responses though. gwickwire | Leave a message 23:45, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I see what you mean. An additional page could be useful for more background information. George McD (talk) 23:56, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I suppose an individual article about the controversy might be useful (though I'm not sure it's really that important), but that's not what we're here to discuss. This has to do with the graf in the GMC article. And a graph about the incident is probably going to have to remain in the GMC article even if someone creates an article about the incident itself. Creating a separate entry about the incident doesn't address the problem at hand. Flyte35 (talk) 00:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

What I am suggesting as a compromise to the issue we are here to discuss is that the content about the controversy will be shortened to one sentence with a WikiLink somewhere in it to a new article, and the controversy covered in full detail there. That way, those who want it covered fully can get their full coverage in it's own article, and there's still reference to it in the GMC article. Then, there's no issue of whether to include a "rationale" for slaughter because that will be covered in the new article. Does that make sense? gwickwire | Leave a message 00:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I think that would be a decent compromise, as a new page about the situation would be better at explaining all sides of the issue in greater detail.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 00:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really sure this one incident at a tiny college really merits its own entry, but I'd be happy with just leaving the graf more or less as it is in the GMC piece and allowing others to create a separate entry for this incident incident.Flyte35 (talk) 01:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, after not seeing any opposition above, I'd like to formally request your input here about my compromise, which is as follows: create a new page about the controversy and link to it in GMC's article, and leave GMC's article otherwise how it is now. If you agree, just say so below here by posting this: ( #Agree ~~~~ ) and once everyone (if everyone) agrees, we can implement this. Thank you all for being patient with each other and me by the way :) gwickwire | Leave a message 01:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

1. AgreeFlyte35 (talk) 03:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

To borrow a phrase from one of the other editors, I respectfully and firmly disagree. One of the other editors also said that it would show "bias" to add a few words to clarify the objectives of the tens of thousands of petitioners. I would argue that it shows "bias" to leave that information out. We are talking about a very short addition here - a phrase or sentence at most. Very short. There is no need to write a whole separate entry to address this one important fact that is left out of this otherwise acceptable summary. Misplaced Pages readers deserve to know why tens of thousands of people from all over the world cared about these two particular oxen in Vermont. Thank you. George McD (talk) 03:50, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Gwickwire. Along with George McD, I must voice my opposition to leaving the current GMC graf as it is—a separate full article is a separate matter. The only relevant question in this content dispute is whether my above proposal, in bold, should be included. I believe that inclusion is warranted under the “significance” test in WP:UNDUE, which requires that “all significant viewpoints” be fairly represented in an article. In fact, as you stated earlier, “any controversy that can be sourced reliably has at least some place somewhere, if only as a sentence”—which precisely describes my modest proposal. Not only is the proposed articulated rationale part of the controversy, it is reliably sourced and short. Furthermore, as noted above, my proposal adds informative value to the graf: it (i) describes one of the main reasons against slaughter (because B&L deserve to be spared after 10 years of work), and (ii) describes what “tens of thousands” were urging (spare and sent to sanctuary). Both (i) and (ii) are part of the facts of this controversy, which are otherwise left out of the current graf. Regarding compromise, I am willing to consider one so long as there is a good-faith basis against my proposal—one that is not founded on, essentially, “I don’t like it.” Is there any good reason to reject my proposal when it clearly falls within wikipedia guidelines (WP:UNDUE)? If not, then a “consensus” to reject it would be wholly irrational—let’s strive to make wikipedia better, not second-rate. So to those who object to my proposal, I’d simply like to know: why? Below, I respond to some objections.

Crazytome. My proposal is a significant part of this controversy, which is the relevant standard for inclusion. The petition, as I noted above, is referenced in several major sources—so there cannot be any objection to source. Remember, as reported in the NYT and elsewhere, it received “tens of thousands” of signatures.

Vt. Catamount. (1) If you don’t like the word “letter,” we can replace it with “petition.” Compromise, see? :) (2) Grammatically, I believe the bolded proposal only refers to the “tens of thousands online petitioners worldwide,” and not to “townspeople” and “animal rights supporters.” But replacing “letter” with “petition” would add more clarity.

Kingsrow1975. (1) Your objections continue to ignore my argument from WP:UNDUE. Does my proposal fall within the “significance” test of WP:UNDUE or not? If not, why not? If so, then on what grounds do you resist my proposal? (2) While there are other petitions, my proposal only describes the rationale articulated in the one referenced in the NYT and elsewhere (e.g., Chronicle of Higher Education)—that petition is a major part of this controversy. So under WP:UNDUE, my bolded proposal should be included. (3) Regarding your bias objection, it is wholly without merit; again, my proposal merely describes the rationale articulated in the care2 petition, which accords perfectly with wikipedia guidelines (Misplaced Pages describes disputes). The fact that you dislike my neutral description is hardly anything to do with “bias.” PE2011 (talk) 03:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, since there is somebody opposed to my current proposal, I feel that the best way to go now is to state my opinion. In my opinion, there should be something added, and if it were up to me I would go with what the user proposed in bold up the page a bit. I'm going to go on assuming that everyone can abide by that proposal (of adding something short in the article). My rationale for this is as I said above. The article really doesn't need something there, but not including it could be seen as WP:UNDUE or WP:BIAS as the viewpoint of all but the petitioners is pretty explicitly expressed. Therefore, to not violate these concepts, there should be something added about the viewpoint of the protestors. Now let's decide what should be added and where. We have the one proposal above, does anyone else have their proposals? If so, list them below. Thanks, gwickwire | Leave a message 04:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks gwickwire. To help focus discussion, any counter-proposals to mine should be based solely on the care2 petition, the one already implicitly referenced in the graf ("tens of thousands" of online signatures) and sourced in several places. No other source should be considered. I will quote the care2 petition in full (bold in original):

At the end of October 2012, Bill and Lou, the hard-working team of oxen for Green Mountain College’s Cerridwen Farm, are scheduled to be slaughtered.

Bill and Lou have worked as draft animals on the school’s farm for over ten years. They have provided many services for the college and are mascots & friends to many students, past and present. Since Lou sustained a recurring injury to his left rear hock, he no longer has “value” to GMC, so they decided to purchase a new team and send both of these oxen to the slaughterhouse to be "processed" (euphemism for killed) for their meat.

Please encourage Green Mountain College to allow Bill & Lou to be adopted by the VINE Sanctuary in Vermont where they can live out the remainder of their lives. They've worked so hard for the college for 10 years and deserve a better fate than ending up on someone's plate!

And just so we're on the same page, here is my proposal again: "The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who signed a letter urging that the two oxen, after being made to work for 10 years, deserve to be spared and sent to a sanctuary." We can also replace "letter" with "petition," per one objection above, but that's a minor detail. PE2011 (talk) 04:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

IF, and there is a big IF I were to agree with this, the language would have to be changed to something more neutral...as such: "The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights activists and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who signed a petition urging that the two oxen, who had worked for the college for 10 years, should be spared and sent to a sanctuary."Kingsrow1975 (talk) 04:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I think the proposal from Kingsrow hits the spot. It is neutral, doesn't cause confusion, and flows the best that I have seen so far. Can everyone agree to that? Reply tomorrow, bedtime now gwickwire | Leave a message 04:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

If there must be additional language (and the line seems redundant to me, given that both the age of the animals and the offer of sanctuary is already stated in the graf) in order for this to end, ok, I think this might be the best we can do.Flyte35 (talk) 05:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Not to be a pain, but I do have some reservations with Kingsrow1975’s counter-proposal—please let me know if you believe they’re unfounded. First, as a matter of writing, it has redundancies that should be eliminated for stylistic reasons. “College” and “who” appear twice, thereby making the sentence flow unsmooth. Second, as a matter of substance, it does cause confusion. (1) “ho had worked for the college for 10 years” suggests that the oxen are like regular employees, persons free to work if they so choose, when in reality, Bill and Lou are considered property (“draft animals” - a phrase that GMC uses). So “who” is misleading and contrary to the description in the petition. (2) “Should,” instead of “deserve,” fails to adequately capture the articulated rationale. “Should” is not synonymous with “deserve,” whereas the latter is clearer and lifted from the language of the petition. What is the articulated rationale for why B&L should be spared? Because they deserve to be spared after being made to work for 10 years—that is the core essence of the petition. Kingsrow1975’s counter-proposal fails to capture that essence. Lastly, a quick response to Flyte35. Your redundancy concerns are misplaced. (1) Although the age of the oxen is mentioned in the graf, the number of years they worked is NOT mentioned. (2) The "offer of sanctuary" by VINE to GMC is distinct from the urging of petitioners that B&L be sent to VINE. PE2011 (talk) 05:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Your reservations are unfounded. Redundancies of language can be easily fixed. As for the rest, come up with a different proposal (not your original one) if you feel you can do better. I grow weary of the obstructionist actions, so I wish to see real suggestions from you instead of only criticisms.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 05:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Kingsrow1975. First, my above proposal IS a real suggestion—why do you reject it? Please provide your objections, in detail, so we can discuss them. “I don’t like it” isn’t a valid reason. Second, I believe my criticisms of your counter-proposal have merit, but if you (or anyone else) believe otherwise, please explain why they don’t. Ironically, your (1) casual dismissal of my proposal without argument and (2) naked assertion that my “reservations are unfounded” can be more accurately described as “obstructionist actions.” PE2011 (talk) 05:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Here's a modified proposal, which slims down the rationale even more: "The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who signed a petition urging that the two oxen, after being made to work for 10 years, deserve to permanently retire in a sanctuary."

I'll take that and raise you this: who signed a petition urging that the two oxen, which GMC had worked for 10 years, deserve to permanently retire in a sanctuary."Kingsrow1975 (talk) 06:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

First, your version is stylistically cumbersome—“which GMC had worked” flows awkwardly. The main problem is with “had worked.” Second, in terms of substance, it is slightly better than your previous proposal which completely whitewashes the fact that B&L had no choice in “working”; they were made to work, which is undeniable (“draft animals,” remember?). Your latest version, while slightly better, still glosses over that fact and does not adequately capture the core rationale in the petition, and thus it is less clear than my version. Third, again on substance, your version does not adequately capture the core rationale that B&L deserve sanctuary because they were made to work for 10 years. Your version hides that “because,” whereas my version implies it clearly in a neutral way. Fourth, before proposing another counter-proposal, please explain why you find my latest version objectionable. The burden can't be entirely on me to keep coming up with proposal after proposal when you keep rejecting them without explanation. Thank you.PE2011 (talk) 06:58, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

SMH. Even though you seem to enjoy it, I refuse to keep going round and round with you. I am done trying to explain myself to a person who obviously does not want to compromise. That said, I will comment no further until both a mod and other users have said their peace.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 07:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I must admit, it's a bit amusing to see how far this discussion has gone since I last checked in, and yet no progress has been made! Unfortunately, I'm here to stick a wrench in the endlessly spinning wheel, if I can.

The care2 petition is off-limits as a source. Someone who believes it necessary will need to find an "articulated rationale" elsewhere. This is going to be difficult, I admit, since virtually all of the reliable sources used thus far (to my recollection, at least) seem to share my perspective: such language is superfluous. As for why petitioners petitioned and protestors protested, that rationale is located conveniently in the very first line of the subsection. For Gwickwire's sake, I'll repost that here:

"The college made national headlines in the fall of 2012 over its plan to slaughter its two 11-year-old draft oxen, Bill and Lou, and serve their meat in the college dining hall."

As a note to other editors, thepetitionsite.com was blacklisted back in 2010 (http://meta.wikimedia.org/Spam_blacklist#Petition_sites) and the "articulated rational" for that blacklisting is stated here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Spam_blacklist&oldid=2237861#thepetitionsite.com.2F1.2Fban-wikipedia and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist/Common_requests#Petitions .

I am reminded of Wiki:SPS: “if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so.” See also: WP:Primary. Further, before anyone gets upset, I did suggest that the care2 petition was "not a preferred source" on the Green Mountain College Talk page on November 12th and again at 04:23, 04:34, and 04:40 on 12 November 2012 (UTC). I only discovered it was blacklisted this evening.Vt catamount (talk) 08:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Thepetitionsite.com is not the site in question. The care2 site is not blacklisted. I will defer to administrators on the rules about citing petitions for context (not for encouraging people to sign, which is clearly not the case here.) If it is determined that the care2 site can not be referenced, I suggest this rewrite of the graf which uses language from the NYT article of 10/28/12, to make two points - 1) the oxen worked for GMC for 10 years and the college wanted to turn them into hamburger meat for the dining hall 2) The petitioners called for a "reprieve."

The college made national headlines in the fall of 2012 over its plan to slaughter its pair of 11-year-old draft oxen, Bill and Lou, who had worked for the college for 10 years, and turn them into into hamburger meat for the dining hall. The community decision was made after Lou was injured and it was determined that Bill would not accept a new partner. GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm. The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who called for a reprieve. The college planned to slaughter the oxen by the end of October but postponed the event, saying area slaughterhouses were deluged with protests, some of them threatening. In November, the college had Lou euthanized and buried his body off campus. Bill is slated to remain with the college." George McD (talk) 13:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Vt catamount is completely wrong: the care2 petition is a valid source because it is referenced in several sources, which I already posted above. I will do so again:

2. NYT:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/29/us/oxens-possible-slaughter-prompts-fight-in-vermont.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 (references the care2 petition, “tens of thousands of online petitioners”)

3. Chronicle of Higher Education: http://chronicle.com/blogs/buildings/a-decision-to-slaughter-oxen-at-a-college-farm-angers-animal-rights-activists/32260 (links to the care2 petition)

4. NPR: http://m.npr.org/news/Science/163257176 (references the care2 petition—“more than 30,000 signatures from all over the world.”)

5. VTDigger: http://vtdigger.org/2012/11/04/national-animal-rights-group-blocks-slaughter-of-green-mountain-college-oxen-by-pressuring-local-slaughterhouses/ (references care2 petition—“47,300 signatures from across the nation and world”.)

6. AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ie6N7qspIVA96Eebzwg3SOcoB6nA?docId=568d603eca1142e8a3743327e422d14b (references care2 petition)

7. Boston Globe: http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/10/25/fire-mountain/f8mIXuOFwg201TopTbeXiK/story.html (references care2 petition, “surpassed 25,000 signatures”)PE2011 (talk) 14:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Apparently I need to clarify this for you. You cannot use language from the care2 petition, which is hosted at thepetitionsite.com, because a) thepetitionsite.com is a blacklisted reference, and b) petitions themselves are inappropriate references (WP:Primary). It doesn't matter how many sources cite it, you can't use it as a source. I see the care2.com 'articles' following down the same slippery slope of WP:Primary. And I ask, when you have so many reliable sources to work from, with plenty of language to consider, why do you need to? Remember, folks, this is about the integrity of the encyclopedia first and foremost.

In brighter news, George McD may have something there.Vt catamount (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Vt. catamount. First, I believe an exception for citing the petition directly is permitted here, since there is no question as to its reliability (multiple secondary sources reference it). Second, even if I couldn’t cite to the petition directly because it’s blacklisted, I wouldn’t have to: I could cite to, for instance, the Chronicle of Higher Education article which links to the petition. Third, your grasp of the “primary sources” rule is wrong—it doesn’t categorically prohibit primary sources. “Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense.” Moreover, “a primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge.” That is precisely what I’m doing: making a purely descriptive statement about what’s in the petition. Think about it this way: What reliability concerns are raised with citing the petition? If the answer is "none," then you have no basis for objection. Moreover, the rule is more pertinent to “accounts written by people who are directly involved”—that is, factual claims. I'm citing the petition for its articulated rationale, not for any facts. PE2011 (talk) 15:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I think if you're going to push the matter, instead of fall back on language from one of the many reliable sources we have available, I'd recommend you seek the opinion of an editor who is well-versed in the topic, such as User JZG from http://meta.wikimedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Spam_blacklist&oldid=2237861#thepetitionsite.com.2F1.2Fban-wikipedia who states plainly that "All petition sites should be blocked on principle, their primary use on Misplaced Pages is as a method of canvassing, their secondary use is for original research."Vt catamount (talk) 15:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

VT. catamount. First, I’m not sure what that even means, but one shouldn’t quote the opinions of experienced editors as if they were gospel. The types of situations User JZG had in mind probably don’t resemble the current one in this content dispute. Second, like I said, even if I couldn’t cite to the petition directly because it’s blacklisted, I wouldn’t have to: I could cite to, for instance, the Chronicle of Higher Education article which links to the petition. This completely addresses your concern. Third, I’ll ask again: What reliability concerns are raised with citing the petition? If the answer is "none," then you have no basis for objection. PE2011 (talk) 15:50, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is built on principle, PE, not rules. I think the principle of using secondary and tertiary sources is well-covered throughout the policy pages, I don't have the time nor the inclination to explain it any further than I have. I don't think your "3rd degree of sourcing" is acceptable, but let's hear what Gwickwire says. If he or she would like me to expand on why I think we shouldn't be taking language from a source because that source is cited in reliable sources, then we can go down that winding road. Back to your first "point", if you actually think that the "types of situations JZG had in mind don't resemble the current one," I invite you to submit the care2 petition to be whitelisted.Vt catamount (talk) 16:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

VT. catamount. First, since wikipedia guidelines are based on “principles” and not “rules,” that only strengthens my point: there is no categorical prohibition against citing primary sources, something I demonstrated in my quotes above from WP: Primary—I quoted from the very policy page you reference. Second, “tertiary sources” are not applicable here, so I don't know why you brought it up. Third, if you’re confident that the types of situations JZG had in mind resemble the current one, I welcome such a demonstration. The burden can’t be on me to rebut unsupported claims. Thank you.PE2011 (talk) 16:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Again, I will be happy to address any expansion of reasoning requested by Gwickwire. I am no longer interested in following you around Misplaced Pages policy pages to demonstrate intent of principle.Vt catamount (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Wow, this never ends. Dispute about the petition strikes me as bizarre. Can't we simply summarize the petition and cite a news article referencing the petition? Also, as long as this is still continuing, "made to work" and "work" are, in this case, the same thing. Since we're talking about OXEN, there's no danger of anyone getting the impression that the farm animals were working voluntarily, in the manner of people.Flyte35 (talk) 16:37, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35. (1) My above proposal is precisely your suggestion: cite the Chronicle of Higher Education article, which links to the petition. (2) I must disagree with your suggestion that we collapse “made to work” to “work,” since the former captures – in a neutral way – the thinking behind the petition: that after being forced to work for 10 years, B&L deserve retirement in a sanctuary. (3) What specific proposal are you referring to? If it’s Kingsrow1975’s latest proposal, then it is also subject to the other objections I made above (which he never addressed). PE2011 (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Not that easy, Flyte35, from WP:PrimarySources "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" and "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." Since we have a plethora of excellent secondary sources to work with, I don't see how this would be a problem - UNLESS the "rationale" of the petition was unworthy of news coverage, since it's implicit. Vt catamount (talk) 16:50, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Vt catamount. Read the very sentence you quoted again—the key word there is “interpretation.” My mere description of what the petition says is NOT an “interpretation.” Furthermore, you left out the following sentence: “A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge.” “Descriptive statements of facts.” What is my proposal? It is describing, as fact, what’s in the petition, which falls perfectly within the wikipedia guidelines. Another quote (which you continue to ignore): “Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense.” Finally, I'll repeat my question: What reliability concerns are raised with citing the petition? If the answer is "none," then you have no basis for objection.PE2011 (talk) 16:57, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

From my understanding of the blacklist, you literally can't cite the petition. As in, you press "save" and a bot bounces it back and flags the offending reference. What you've offered in your proposal is not a "description of facts," it is a description of feelings, and common sense indicates it has no business in an encyclopedic article. That said, are you really incapable of finding the rationale you seek in a secondary source? Does that difficulty not speak volumes about the language you're proposing? I await comment from our volunteer. Edit to add: My statement above was directed towards Flyte35 and his recommendation that we summarize the petition. I believe this is a good example of why Gwickwire initially requested one post apiece before his or her return. Vt catamount (talk) 17:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Vt catamount. (1)Again, if the care2 petition can’t be cited directly because of technical issues, then citing to the Chronicle of Education article is more than sufficient—because it links to the petition. (2) My proposal IS a mere factual description: namely, it describes what’s written in the petition! The fact that you don’t like what’s written there is hardly a valid objection. (3) As I said before, the onus can’t be entirely on me to come up with proposal after proposal when they keep getting rejected without explanation. So, before I make any new proposals, I want to know why my latest one is so problematic to you (and anyone else who objects). If you offer good-faith criticisms, I am more than willing to supply an alternative, but I see no need accommodate the “majority” anymore. PE2011 (talk) 17:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

"If you offer good-faith criticisms, I am more than willing to supply an alternative, but I see no need accommodate the “majority” anymore." PE2011 (talk) 17:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC) There we have it...an admission that PE2011 is not willing to work with anyone, lest they suit his needs and his needs alone. Vt catamount *is* offering "good faith" criticisms; you not liking them does not make it not so. Thank you for at least admitting that you are dead-set in your ways and refuse to work with anyone.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 17:24, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Let's hear what Gwickwire says. If he or she would like me to expand on why I think we shouldn't be taking language from a source on the back that that source is cited in reliable sources, what I'm terming the 3rd degree of sourcing, then we can go down that winding road. I simply don't think it's acceptable or reasonable to include language from the petition if that language is not summarized in a reliable source outside of that petition.Vt catamount (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I’m eager to hear from gwickwire as well. In particular, I’m eager to hear if there’s any support in the wikipedia guidelines for your mere assertion that it’s not “acceptable or reasonable to include language from the petition if that language is not summarized in a reliable source outside of that petition.” And even if there were, remember, wikipedia doesn't have any exceptionless principles or rules. Given how many times the care2 petition is referenced in major sources, there are no reliability concerns. PE2011 (talk) 17:27, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Kingsrow1975. I responded to every criticism you and Vt catamount made about my proposal, explaining why I believe they wholly lack merit. My criticisms went unanswered: it doesn’t demonstrate good faith on your part to simply dismiss them without explanation. PE2011 (talk) 17:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

You keep thinking that if it makes you feel better. As Vt catamount said, I am going to wait until gwickwire has a chance to comment before I say anything else. Good day.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 17:34, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to set the record straight: I HAVE been bending over backwards to accommodate the “majority.” Remember, this dispute started because I wanted to include a rationale from VINE, but because you made such a fuss about VINE, I cited to the care petition instead. My original care2 proposal did not satisfy you (though not because of any valid objection), which prompted me slim it down further. That's 3 major modifications from me, and yet, you’re still not satisfied! Who’s being unreasonable here? PE2011 (talk) 17:42, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Just so gwickwire isn’t lost, my latest (slimed down) proposal reads: “The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who signed a petition urging that the two oxen, after being made to work for 10 years, deserve to permanently retire in a sanctuary.”PE2011 (talk) 17:46, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I never had the opportunity to address this, so I will now: "made to work" and "deserve" are both examples of incendiary language. This is part and parcel of why we shouldn't be using Primary sources.Vt catamount (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Vt catamount. Thanks for at least (finally!) addressing the substance of my proposal. However, your objections are unfounded. I disagree with your claim that “made to work” and “deserve” are examples of “incendiary language”; rather, they are neutral and accurate – NOT over-dramatized – descriptions of what’s written in the petition. Those words are part of the core rationale in the petition: B&L should be spared because they deserve to live, after being made to work for 10 years—that’s the essence. My proposal does not state an opinion as to whether B&L really do deserve to live, but only describes (accurately) the opinion written in the petition. PE2011 (talk) 18:14, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure, but we immediately return to my objection to summarizing a primary source - "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so" - and your suggestion that, merely because the source is referenced by secondary sources, we can evade the above-quoted principle.Vt catamount (talk) 18:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

But then we return to my objection that "mere summary" - just a description - isn't precluded by the wikipedia guidelines. PE2011 (talk) 18:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Last word.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 18:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Surely not "permanently retire in a sanctuary." Retirement can't be permanent; the oxen would die eventually on their own.Flyte35 (talk) 19:24, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Wha? Okay. How about this as a proposal: “The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who signed a petition with the belief that the two oxen, after working for 10 years, deserved to be retired in a sanctuary.” This way, it is clear that the protestors believed they deserved to retire, and not Misplaced Pages believes they deserve it. Does this proposal work for all? gwickwire | Leave a message 20:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Gwickwire. This works for me. George McD (talk) 20:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Gwickwire, this doesn't address any of the above mentioned issues of sourcing. What reference are we going to use to cite this claim? Or are you suggesting it be left uncited? (I should mention that I do not agree that a rationale is necessary, as stated above. If you have addressed any of the comments above, please advise, and I will look to your previous response).Vt catamount (talk) 20:29, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Gwickwire.Your above proposal, while not my preference, is a tolerably acceptable one for me. PE2011 (talk) 20:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I think for this purpose we can use the petition itself to cite it, as we are in fact just describing the petition's stance. I do apologize for not expressing my replies in more detail by the way. But like I said, in this instance only I think it would be fine to cite the petition, such as citing a company's website for the number of employees it has (where else would you find that information). I think the rationale is needed to make the thought about the petition complete, by clarifying the stance of the petitioners. Like I have said, without some rationale, the reader is left wondering what the petitioners were petitioning for. If we can't come to a consensus on this, I don't know much else we can do here, I may need to refer this to either editor assitance for someone else to have yet another opinion, or if that doesn't work then maybe to mediation. Not yet though. Right now let's try this one last thing. Proposal: what is above, with the citation added of the petition itself. gwickwire | Leave a message 20:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

And as I explained above, we could also cite the Chronicle of Higher Education article, which links directly to the petition. PE2011 (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not concerned that your replies lack detail, but I am getting a bit concerned that you may have missed large parts of the discussion. Thepetitionsite.com, the site on which the petition is hosted and the "rationale articulated," is a blacklisted url. Unless I'm mistaken about the WikiMedia platform, this seems to be a serious obstacle to your proposal. Vt catamount (talk) 20:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

You know...on one hand, gwickwire's proposal sounds good, but the things Vt catamount has been bringing up has got me to thinking. I am not quite sure that I can support that just yet...at least while Vt catamount's questions remain unanswered.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 20:46, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

huh? What questions specifically? I answered every objection above--please explain. PE2011 (talk) 20:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I not speak to you since you've proven time and time again that you do not debate in good faith. Any questions you have can be directed to vt catamount. Thank you.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 20:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

If there's another comment above, I will be very tempted to stop trying to work with you. That is not appropriate for this forum. If there's editors here who won't talk to each other then this needs to be taken to Mediation or another forum. In reply, if the website is blacklisted, then we can source the Chronicle of HE article that links to it in the article. Or, I could talk to someone and get this link specifically whitelisted for this purpose. There's ways to work around it. Right now, we are talking about the proposal. Also, reminding the editors, when you reach an Edit Conflict, DO NOT just copy your revision into the top box, as it will delete any comments made in the EC, which is not a good way to work with others (only saying this because one of my comments got deleted in an ec). gwickwire | Leave a message 20:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I am more than willing to talk to anyone here about how to resolve this content dispute. Thanks for your guidance. PE2011 (talk) 20:58, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, gwickwire, it is highly inappropriate to whitelist a link just to suit one specific purpose such as this, as it could be construed as favoritism.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 21:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't mean whitelist the whole website, only the specific URL of the petition itself. All other petitions on the site would still be blacklisted, it would just override for this one since it has a specific purpose. More than likely the site is blacklisted because people spammed articles with the link as proof of something that didn't exist, and this petition is just caught in the line of fire. gwickwire | Leave a message 21:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Petitions are blacklisted for very good reason. It is my belief that the language of a petition does not belong in a Misplaced Pages entry - I think that scatters its integrity. A rationale can likely be found in a reliable source, and it won't be as emotionally charged. Remember, we are not all in agreement that an expanded rationale is necessary, it would just "help with the flow." I will not sacrifice Misplaced Pages's integrity over "flow." If it's your opinion that a petition can be whitelisted for this purpose, I would respectfully ask that we receive the input of another editor WP:EA. Also, apologies about the edit conflict and deletion if I caused it, I had *no* idea.Vt catamount (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Even whitelisting one URL to suit the needs of inserting the language can be seen as favoritism, as it normally would not be included any other time. That said, I am with Vt catamount in their final thoughts.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 21:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

From the discussion above, which it looks like you have not reviewed: "As a note to other editors, thepetitionsite.com was blacklisted back in 2010 (http://meta.wikimedia.org/Spam_blacklist#Petition_sites) and the "articulated rational" for that blacklisting is stated here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Spam_blacklist&oldid=2237861#thepetitionsite.com.2F1.2Fban-wikipedia and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist/Common_requests#Petitions ."Vt catamount (talk) 21:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

First of all, no problem about the EC, I've accidentally done that too sometimes. If nobody else objects to taking this to EA, or mediation, then I think that would be good at this point. This has gone on for quite some time now without any real consensus, and I don't feel that the DR board here is going to be able to help anymore. gwickwire | Leave a message 21:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your honesty, I have no objections. Let us know if there is a specific action we must take to accomplish this.Vt catamount (talk) 21:15, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with taking this all the way to mediation if necessary. One last proposal (slight modification of gwickwire's): “The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide who signed a petition stating that the two oxen, after working for 10 years, deserve to retire in a sanctuary.” PE2011 (talk) 21:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

If anyone objects to this proposal, I feel we can't do much more here, so if anyone objects then I'll close this as failed, and apologize sincerely I wasn't able to do more. There isn't anything special you have to take, I'd suggest (just out of randomness) that Kingsrow takes it to EA, once again that was a random choice for me. gwickwire | Leave a message 21:19, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I object. So on that note cheers, Gwickwire. Check up on us in a year to make sure we're not still going at it.Vt catamount (talk) 21:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Can we get a head count as to who objects and who doesn't? Thanks. PE2011 (talk) 21:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Then, on that note, I do sincerely apologize for not being able to do more, and wish you the best of luck in getting this resolved. Sorry again! gwickwire | Leave a message 21:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry to see that this can't be worked out here. The petition has been reported on numerous times in several news outlets, including those cited in the existing graf. The fact that the oxen worked for the college for 10 years has been reported multiple times as well. Readers of Misplaced Pages deserve to know why tens of thousands of people were concerned about the fate of Bill and Lou. To not include that information is a disservice to Misplaced Pages and weakens its credibility. Thank you for your efforts to help Gwickwire. George McD (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

You were great, gwickwire. Do you recommend meditation next or EC? And would it be possible for you to provide your input as the volunteer working with us? PE2011 (talk) 21:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Windows Server 2012 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Codename Lisa (talk · contribs)
• Jasper Deng (talk · contribs)
• JetBlast (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute started almost a month ago, when I contested the use of colors in Windows Server 2012 editions table. The table lists the differences between different editions of Windows Server 2012 and uses color key; but I am concerned about the meaning of the colors.

At the lower half of the table, green is used for "Yes" (meaning that the feature is present), red is used for "No" (meaning that the feature is absent) and yellow is used for "Partial" (meaning that the feature is present only to some extents). But at the upper section, where silvery gray, light red, green, cyan and yellow are used, I cannot logically associate a clear-cut meaning with light red and cyan.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

See this permanent link: Talk:Windows Server 2012 § Color guide in editions table We have been discussing this issue for 15 days now. All three of us agree that consensus is weak but there has been no response to our RfC or other notices.

How do you think we can help?

This part of DRN request is the most difficult part; especially, because if I knew the answer to this question, I wouldn't have been here.

Opening comments by Jasper Deng

Opening comments by JetBlast

I am not getting involved really. It isnt a "Dispute" I just happened to make comment on the original discussion. --JetBlast (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Windows Server 2012 editions table discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2010 Thai political protests (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ferwert (talk · contribs)
• Takeaway (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

1. 1 - The Topic entitled "2010 Thai political Protests" is suffused with biased and political one-sided perspectives. I can fully understand why that is the case. It is written by Native Englsih Language editors.
2. 2 - Native English Speakers in Thailand are almost to a person, infused with the perspectives of the media to which they are restricted due to linguistic issues. I am a unique exception to that.
3. 3 - The media they read, is uniformly antagonistic to one side of the political divide in Thailand. English Language political discussion forumns such as ThaiVisa.com and Teakdoor.com are affiliated with that media, and reinforce these perspectives. In effect, they are propaganda organs for one side of the Political Divide
4. 4 - The other side of this political divide is unilingual Thai. Much of the foreign media does not have the resources to overcome such linguistic difficulties and will often simply copy or paraphrase the above media.
5. 5 - It is no wonder therefore, that English language readers are suffused with the perspectives of these sources, and consider them to be gospel.
6. 6 - I am similarly familiar with the above perspectives. But am equally immersed in the other side of that political divide, by virtue of in-depth associations with leaders from that side. Accordingly, I am one of the few who have a grasp of both sides. I am horrified by the one-sidedness of the Misplaced Pages entry as contained within the topic "2010 Thai Political Protests".
7. 7 - I have made four attempts to bring equilibrium to thsi report, only to have it summarily deleted inj entirety by an editor who I have become coinvinced is one of the people described above. One who is so indoctrinated by the one-sided english domestic media, that it is impossible to overcome. Anything these people see alternatively, is so grossly at odds with what they have been indoctrinated to think, it is massive lies, misrepresentation are totally non-neutral. Given their background, I can understand why that is. A clear example of this, is the historical discussions associated with this article. many of the discussions merely seek to correct information on one side. The blind leading the blind in reality. they have never beem exposed to this unilingual "other' side represented by the UDD.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

In deleting my edits, "takeaway" has indicated that they are non-neutral.Instead of deleting my edits wholesale, I have requested him to highlight what he considers non-nuetrality, and discuss them. He has refused this and continues to delete my entries wholesale. One can read our discussion on our respective "Talk" pages for both "Takeaway" and "Ferwert". Instead of addressing specific areas he considers non-nuetral, he has tried to bury my in Misplaced Pages process as a away of discouraging progress. I also inquired of him if he was associated with one of the most propagandistic and 'opinion management' discussion forums many English language speakers participate in. He refused to answer that query, leading me to conclude that he is an operative from that discussion Board, or at the very least a participant, which is the same. People such as me, with our dual perspective, and able to communicate eloquently, in a reasoned, non-combative way, are regularly banned from that site, is we threaten their 'opinion management' objectives.

How do you think we can help?

1. 1 - Somehow find an individual not indoctrinated by Thai propagandistic media, and related discussion Boards to assess this matter, and to assess my editorial comments objectively. That may be difficult. the vast majority of native English speakers who have an interest in Thai Politics are thoroughly indoctrinated by the media from Thailand, both domestic and foreign. In fact the legal counsel for the side of the political divide unrepresented in this topic on Misplaced Pages, has commented by the wholesale antagonism he experiences from these people.
2. 2 - Assist me in Misplaced Pages process, and not let it prevent me from correcting the one-sided nature of this entry. That may also be difficult. If one insists that I back up everything I say with alternative media sourced reporting, it will squelch anything I say. The vast amount of reporting in media is from one side of the Political Divide. It is owned by that side. In fact, most of the quotes in the current article are invalid, due to their source being from media that are propaganda organs for that side of the political divide. Their inclusion alone, demonstrates the political agenda's at play.

Opening comments by Takeaway

I reverted this edit and this edit by user Ferwert as not adhering to WP:NPOV where they use words such as "coupist Government", "coup-rooted Government", and "Government based on coercive Parliamentary procedures enabled via Oligarchic and military interventions" without backing these very strong assertions with sources as is required by Misplaced Pages. User Ferwert continued editing the article, this time without using these particular phrases. User Ferwert was told at the Misplaced Pages helpdesk when they posted a question there on how to contact me, that Misplaced Pages content should be based on verifiability. I didn't know that this had happened at the time but I too pointed out in the article talk page that edits should be verifiable. User Ferwert then replied that they have personal "in-depth knowledge" of the whole issue and that therefore "all quotes and verification based on the BKK. Post, Nation, ASTV should be eliminated". Apparently, only User Ferwert's own knowledge could be counted on to represent the "correct" viewpoint. I also refused to discuss content changes on Misplaced Pages in private via email, as User Ferwert asked for, because it is my believe that all discussions on content changes should be done in public on the talkpage of the article. Seeing that all subsequent edits of User Ferwert were done without any references to reliable sources and based only upon his word as a self-proclaimed expert, I reverted them with the following edit summary: "reverted to last revision by Takeaway: removed personal analysis, original research, unsourced content. See talk page per user Ferwert's own admission". I then placed the template for "Addition of unsourced or improperly cited material" on to User Ferwert's talkpage.

I personally think that User Ferwert is out to represent the UDD as a legitimate uprising against an illegitimate government. What I know of the Abhisit government is that it was not illegitimate, but came into being in a somewhat irregular way (see: Democrat_Party_(Thailand)#2008-2011_coalition_government). The present article is, again in my personal view, quite neutral in representing both sides without taking a side. It is my personal view that User Ferwert's edits were detrimental to WP:NPOV. If User Ferwert had come with reliable sources to back up their assertions instead of stating "Let me emphasize - I have my feet firmly rooted in both camps experientially, and accordingly can confidently assert that I represent both sides, as I have in-depth knowledge", then this whole issue would have been a true content dispute. As it stands now, it is merely a dispute about unsourced statements and personal analysis by User Ferwert based on original research. - Takeaway (talk) 11:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

2010 Thai political protests discussion

Closing note: I am a regular volunteer here at Misplaced Pages. I'm afraid that this noticeboard cannot provide, indeed Misplaced Pages cannot provide, the relief that you're seeking.

• Your first request asks for some kind of supervision or judging of your edits, but there is no such supervision here: the most fundamental nature of Misplaced Pages, its Wiki model, rejects such supervision. Any other user can choose to change your edits and their motivations or biases in doing so are irrelevant: we judge edits, not editors. The closest thing I could suggest is that, as a newcomer, you seek a mentor through the Adopt-a-user program, but even that is quite different from what it appears that you are seeking. (You also mention legal counsel in your request; it is a passing comment and speaks to certain political factions, not to Misplaced Pages, but let me caution you that the faintest suggestion of a legal threat against Misplaced Pages or another Misplaced Pages user is likely to cause you to be indefinitely blocked from editing, see the legal policy for more detail.)
• As for your second request, this noticeboard is not a help desk and we cannot provide you with the help with your editing that you are requesting. Again, let me recommend a mentorship for that purpose. You go on to say, in effect, that most of the mainstream media sources are biased towards one position and you say that, "If one insists that I back up everything I say with alternative media sourced reporting, it will squelch anything I say." If that is not hyperbole, then you may well be squelched. Misplaced Pages is based entirely upon information from reliable sources as defined by Misplaced Pages, we do not accept information or material from any other source, such as personal information or accounts. That concept is called verifiability. (Why? Because this is an encyclopedia, not just a collection of miscellaneous information, but we we do not have an editorial board or professional editors to decide what should and should not be included; verifiability and the closely-related concept of notability provide that test, instead.)

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:50, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• The page for United Technologies Corporation (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Silvertiger3 (talk · contribs)
• BilCat (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I added the factual information on UTC's page that "Selling secret military technology to the Chinese is in fact an act of treason" with a reference to your wikipedia page defining treason. An editor, one "BilCat" reverted it. I am not sure how he did that since first of all he is "semiretired" and supposedly has not been active since 12/1/2011.

I feel it is important to have it defined that this is in fact an act of treason (in case any reader is not sure) committed by this huge federally subsidized defense contractor no less that received in effect a slap on the wrist from the government.

Whoever "BilCat" was, he obviously was a puppet of UTC. I would like to have my factual edit permently added so noone can remove it. Beause I am sure that UTC will simply have another editor remove it if I repost it. This is not vandalism. It is the truth. Please reply and add my edit back to the UTC page. Thank you. I will be making a donation to wikipedia.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

none

How do you think we can help?

have my factual edit added back to UTC's page so the public is sure that this was an act of treason committed by UTC.

Opening comments by BilCat

the page for United Technologies Corporation discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Charles Jaco (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Cole132132 (talk · contribs)
• McSly (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This dispute has been posted within the talk page, but I would like to say due to the history and biased nature of this I should seek further council. Today (11/16/2012) I posted on the article Charles Jaco:

" In an 1991 broadcast covering the Gulf War realeased to the public via the internet Jaco is seen laughing and joking on a fake set supposedly in Saudi Arabia, then we also see that Jaco is practicing for the live airing with background stages cutting in and out. Afterword we see a clip of the actual broadcast live with Jaco and another correspondent supposedly during a missile attack."

as well as a external link to the video. But not to long later it was undone and my explination for that was posted on the talk page:

"My article addition of the article was removed and labeld dubious as well as unreferenced when however it had much truth to it as you could see in external links there was a link to the video (perhaps I should have feautured it in references) . Also I never stated that this was actually forged I said "Possibly" so therefore I was not expressing my opinion. If anything I can assume this undo was clearly aimed at just ones illegtimate political and biased opinion to CNN."

I would like a resoulution for this as I belive that this article is being targeted becausse of a majoritys politcal opinion or just common childlishness.

Cole132132

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Posting a talk page post (which I dont expect a response on).

How do you think we can help?

Coming to an agreement of some sort to repost what I've said for widending of public knowlede on the basis of theoretical grounds (even though there is a video).

Opening comments by McSly

Charles Jaco discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Charminar wikipedia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Hoodedemperor (talk · contribs)
• User-multi error: no username detected (help).

Dispute overview

Dear Sir,

Please note under the Charminar Misplaced Pages some admins has added article which is not correct Example:Article Citiation No.11 first paragraph shows wrong information if you see the website source of the news. I removed the information about 10 times but its getting back by admins . So iam requesting you to please sort this issue and add the correct information to the article

Thanks, Syed

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have requested admin to please don't remove my edits but they are removing it continuesly.

How do you think we can help?

As Iam requesting you the page of Charminar wikipedia should show the information only about the charminar but not Bhagyalakshmi temple. And also they have wikipedia page of Bhagyalakshmi temple so let them edit there.

Opening comments by

Charminar wikipedia discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.