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Jewish history Start‑class

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Ukraine Start‑class

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Fanya Baron

Hey Historians, I am wondering about what evidence you have that Fanya Baron was jewish... Was she a practicing jew? I ask because I found it very difficult to research her for the Fanya Baron article and would love any other material if you have any. Or are you just going by the name alone? Cheers, Anna AnAn 08:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, Anna. Yes, Fanya Baron was a practicing Jew, and a descendant of Vilna Gaon. I am a descendant of her husband Aaron's brother, the one you labelled as a Bolshevik. I'd like to precise, that he didn't betray Fanya, and was himself executed as an Anarchist. I corrected that in your article. Elijah Baron

About terror

The section is severely POV. This material is already covered in Jewish Bolshevism in much more comprehensive and netral manner. ←Humus sapiens 10:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there any factual objections, is Winston Churchill's article factually incorrect? Please be more specific.--Hillock65 10:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not engage in revert wars but discuss your objectins first, as it is civilized to do. Thank you.--Hillock65 11:03, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I did. Read Jewish Bolshevism: "Even Winston Churchill briefly joined this bandwagon, blaming the Russian Revolution on Jews." Churchill was a politician, not a historian. To present these allegations as fact is POV. ←Humus sapiens 11:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Churchill's article is there to illustrate the point. Jewish Bolsheviks, particularly from Ukraine as Trotsky for example did participate in revolutionary terror, what is factually incorrect? It is a well known fact and this page is not only for listing atrocities against Jews but to illuminate all spheres of Jewish life in Ukraine, even as unsavoury as the atrocities allegations. Please be advised, that removing whole sections is considered a vandalism and will be reported. Please see Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. If something is POV in your opinion, make changes, additions - I wouldn't even object to tagging this page but blanking completely whole sections about red terror and famine atrocities is a different matter. These things should be discussed before being removed completely.--Hillock65 11:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

What is a well-known fact, that Jews starved Ukrainians? Of course Jews were accused in all kinds of "terror" and conspiracies, but we should rely on academic research. What sources are you using? ←Humus sapiens 11:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you realize that you are adding political and not scholarly material? References please. ←Humus sapiens 11:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Churchil's article is to illustrate Jewish participation in the revolutionary terror and several allegations were made about Lazar Kaganovich's role in the famine. If these need additional sources, I will provide them, but please do not delete because you don't like them, you may tag them as needing citations and those will be provided in due time.--Hillock65 11:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Churchill's article illustrates his political opinion, and nothing more. Please stop this political propaganda. ←Humus sapiens 11:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

And so what? It cannot be used to illustrate the point? Since when? Please stop revert war! If you disagree with facts and allegations, these can be provided and mutually agreed version of Jewish participation in the red terror can be worked out. This is not the page to list Jewish victims, but about all spheres of Jewish life. You do not own this page and other people have the right to express therir ideas. Discuss, add, modify but do not erase completely, this is not civil and counterproductive. I have warned you several times already not to do en masse deletions. --Hillock65 11:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It takes two to edit war. The material is already covered in Jewish Bolshevism. Your sources are a single article written by a British politician (you picked it up from patriot.dk, a hate site), and typical antisemitic allegations (like "Jewish atrocities" - backed by a street poster). See WP:RS. ←Humus sapiens 02:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

What are yuor objections, to the article by Winston Churchil or the where it is from. If there are inaccuracies in the article I can find it on a site that will be more neutral. As far as I am concerned, the facts are correct and that's what matters. And the picture of a newspaper article that Winston Churchil wrote. I don't see why it can't be used, and cannot understand you reasons. Each time there is a new one, either he is not a historian, this is from a wrong site and it's been covered. Fine, I am not elaborating on atrocities, but mentioning that Jews from Ukraine participated in terror is quite warranted. This sit is about Jews from Ukraine and about all events where they participated. I do not elaborate and do not clash with another article but merely mention about the fact and illustrate it. --Hillock65 02:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not insert extreme minority opinions from unreliable sources again; this is a violation of policy. Jayjg 03:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not engage in revert war. You do not own this article, I do not express my opinion but those supported by credible sources. Check before you jump to conclusions. Sir Winston Churchil and Robert Conquest did not engage in any conspiracies! Please check Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. Even if you disagree, assinging labels and accusations will not help reach a neutral version. Thank you.--Hillock65 04:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

"Please do not engage in revert war. You do not own this article". LOL! Please see irony. Jayjg 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I have utmost respect for W. Churchill as a political leader, but he is not an expert on the History of the Jews in Ukraine. There is a difference between a politician and a scholar.

A street poster may serve as an example for Antisemitism article but not a good source for History of the Jews in Ukraine.

The accusation that the Jews caused the Holodomor is a typical antisemitic canard. The logic "Kaganovich was there, therefore Jews caused it" is ridiculous. Molotov, Postyshev are not even Jewish.

"Jews from Ukraine participated in terror" - together with Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Georgians, Latvians, etc. What is so notable about it? BTW, the terror was against Jews as well. Jewish Bolsheviks, the link you repeatedly removed, already describes this in detail. ←Humus sapiens 04:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't need to be an expert. He is a famous statesmand and polition, his thoughts are relevant and worth attention. One does not need to be a scholar to be used as a reference. For the second time, it is not a street poster, but a photo of a newspaper article he wrote. It is relevant as these are the thoughts on the subject of one of the world's greatest politians. Please be careful with your standard accusations of antisemetism, apart from bad faith, this is slanderous and unfounded. I give sources, for example a leading historian and scholar on the subject Robert Conquest. It is his opinion that Kaganovich is responsible. No one assigns blame to all Jews, do not manipulate the truth. It merely states that some Jews participated in genocide and Red Terror. These are verified by facts. What is notable is that apart from being in the usual role of a victim, you also will have to get used to the idea that some Jews were also mass murderers. I ask you again, please do not engage in revert war, it will not help - problems are decided in a discussion prefferably without putting commonplace labels. Thank you.--Hillock65 04:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, actually, he does need to be a recognized expert in the subject, not a politician writing half a century ago, and being misused by you. Jayjg 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Why didn't you write anything about "Georgian terror" or "Georgian atrocities"? Josef Stalin was, after all, the Soviet leader at that time and he was the one who determined the policy. There were other Georgians among the communist leadership, notably Lavrentiy Beria. Beit Or 07:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a fact that many Jews supported the Soviet Union communist regime, partcularly in the early period - I agree with Hillock65 that this should be reflected in the article, albeit Humus have a point that we need to be careful about NPOV.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

How do you define "many"? And then, how do you know it? I'm not aware of any polls conducted among Ukrainian Jews at that time. Beit Or 21:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

How do I know it? Jewish Bolshevism, and good refs. Particulary, a quick search yelds this. I have asked a specialist for more refs, Ukraine is not my specialization.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  12:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

"Many Bolsheviks were Jews" is not the same as "many Jews were Bolsheviks". In the link you have provided, you have omitted the crucial word "assimilated". At the time, very few Ukrainian Jews were assimilated. Beit Or 14:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Um, I don't see what assimilation has to do with that issue. Here is another useful ref from an Isreali book, nothing less, that notes that many Jews cooperated with the Soviet regime. And please note nobody here (I hope) is trying to assing blame: it was a reasonable course of action for them then, and for us it should be nothing more (or less) then stating a historical fact.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It is the height of absurdity, and verging on (if not crossing over the line into) antisemitism, to create a section titled "Jewish atrocties during the Ukrainian famine", in which the actions of one ethnic Jew and two non-Jews are referred to. There were literally millions of Jews living in the Ukraine at the time; this kind of abuse of marginal sources is disturbing. Jayjg 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Still not seeing any response on the Talk: page from the many reverters. Is anyone seriously suggesting that an 87 year old article in the Sunday Herald is a "reliable source" for this extreme POV? Even if written by Winston Churchill? Jayjg 19:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Why would an 87 year old article not be a reliable source for an 87 year old event? Is that the only objection you can think of? And what about Kaganovich, the article specifically said that no one speads the blame on all Jews but at the same time horrendous crimes of individuals sould not be overlooked either? What's the objection there? Or is it a pretext to get rid of it altogether?--Hillock65 00:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This material is covered in Jewish Bolshevism in a NPOV manner. Do not try to turn this section/article into a POV fork. ←Humus sapiens 01:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

protection

I've protected this page to what I see as the less controversial version. I encourage various editors to work towards consensus here on the talk page. As you reach agreement on individual points, an admin (either me or someone else) can include them in the regular page. Protection can be lifted at some later point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bucketsofg (talk • contribs) 19:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

2006-12-28T02:19:02 Bucketsofg (Talk | contribs | block) m (Protected History of the Jews in Ukraine: down-grade to semiprotect ) but is now on wiki-break so I have "acquired" it. Discuss... William M. Connolley 17:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

consensus on kievian letter?

In the first paragraph of the medieval section, there is one sentence that is different between the two versions (in italics, below):

Jewish settlements in Ukraine can be traced back to the 8th century. Possibly, Jewish refugees from the Byzantine Empire, Persia, and Mesopotamia, fleeing from persecution by Christians throughout Europe, settled in the Khazar Khaganate. The first written document, Kievian Letter, that acknowleges existance of jewish community in Kievan Rus' is dated by early 10th century (or possibly 11th century).

Is there consensus as to whether or not to include this? Or how to edit the whole paragraph to make it acceptable to everyone? Bucketsofg 19:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In regards to that article I don't understand why if someone doesn't like one or two neutral sentences they have to revert the whole article and refuse to discuss any changes? I believe that 80-90% of the text should not be objected to as there is nothing controversial there. Maybe indeed Hillock65 should have discussed the matter more thoroughly and discuss the changes first.

I consider that sections Kievan Rus and Ukrainian Revolution, added Hillock65 can not cause such debates and must be discussed apart. --Yakudza 16:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Greek Jewish Colonists of the Black Sea Region

This article should mention the numerous Greek Jewish settlements which existed on the Black Sea Coast of Ukraine and the Crimea from the 1st Century AD. The Khazar Khanate is certainly not the first period of Jewish settlement in Ukraine. Also, Rhadanite Jewish traders from Babylonia frequented the territory of Ukraine, conducting trade between the Orient and Western Europe.

Lists of Jews who...

Today two lists were added to this article: Jews who made contributions to Ukrainian culture, and Jews who made contributions to world culture. I began to edit them, as, for example, Lazar Kaganovich clearly did not belong, Mikhail Goldstein's contributions were enjoyed outside the Ukraine, Rheinhold Gliere was not Jewish, (I wonder about some others) etc. Now I see that the second list is loaded with politicians, including Golda Meir. It is clear that the titles of the lists are not accurate, and even if they were, it is not clear that they are appropriate for the article. I have deleted both in their entirety. Jd2718 17:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Cossack Uprising and the Deluge

I want to know, how cossacks can massacred from 50 to several thousands Jews when total number of Jewish population in Ukrain at the same time was about 51 thousands? Even if cossacks have massacred all ukrainian jews (that is not true), they can not to massacre several thousands Jews. It's obvious fudge! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.123.153.25 (talk) 09:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ukrainian National Republic

During the period of the UNR there were a number of ministers who were Jewish. There was also established a Ministry for Jewish Affairs which if I remember correctly was a first in Europe. Also the Ukrainian Banknotes of the UNR were also printed with characters in Hebrew letters in Yiddish which I think was also a first. (Maybe Austro-Hugary was a possible first). Would this be worthy of inclussion in this section. Bandurist 03:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Cossacks

I've deleted a section devoted to "Jewish Cossacks" as trivial. At best, their one-time existence might merit a single sentence. Anything beyond that is clearly undue weight, as no one is claiming that their existence or non-existence has any bearing on the history of Jews in the Ukraine. This is the prototypical footnote to history. The editor who added the section references WP's article on the subject. In fact, the article is more of an essay than an article, -- gee whiz, bet you didn't know any Jews were Cossacks -- and I will be nominating that article for deletion. Jd2718 (talk) 01:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

To my mind, this issue is much more important, than it seems to some editors. If the section about alleged or possible wrongdoings of Cossacks towards Jews exists, and anti-semitism in Ukraine is also portrayed, why not to present other side of that problem? Cossacks are often seen as one of the Ukrainian symbols, so why not to tell the truth about their acceptance of Jews? This section (maybe written in some other way) is fully relevant and appropriate here. I see in the deletion of this section clear prejudice and implementation of personal attitude to the problem.Ans-mo (talk) 05:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

There are no "sides" here. "Alleged" wrongdoings of Cossacks to the Jews is well documented and widely covered. True enough that until recently a greatly exaggerated figures for the number of Jews killed at Khmelnytsky uprising was widely popular but even corrected more recently, this figure gives tens of thousand. Jewish Cossacks seems to me a spoof article devoted to attempting to prove the lack of hostility of Cossacks to Jews and build on some known incidents of Jews serving to Cossacks in some administrative functions (which does not make them Cossacks in any case.) The tensions had a very long history based on that time's lack of religious tolerance, administrative functions Jews performed in Orthodox lands and a widely known tend to violence among Cossacks. The combination of these factors created the events on the ground which were pretty ugly but not uncommon in those times. --Irpen 06:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Presence of Jews among Cossacks is also documented and proven by facts, though this topic is not so popular in propaganda "clichees". There are many historical sources, which confirm that. Here is an example article in Ukrainian: http://amklib113.ru/bbl/kzk/ Ans-mo (talk) 09:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

"Presence of Jews among Cossacks" is not what's disputed. But note that their mere presense does not make them Cossacks themselves. In Ukraine Jews were "present" in many places. --Irpen 23:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The point is not to deny some regrettable sides in the history of Cossacks and Jews, but to present more neutral and objective picture of the history. That's why the mentioning of Jews presence among Ukrainian Cossacks deserves to be mentioned in the article and Misplaced Pages.Ans-mo (talk) 06:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. But Jews being present among the Ukrainian Cossacks does not make the Jews to be Cossacks themselves. Jews were among Cossacks all right. However, they were not (and could not be) Cossacks. You've got to be a Christian to be that. --Irpen 06:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

We are talking here (if I am not mistaken) not only about Jews by religion, but also about Jews by ethnic background. It is known, that Cossacks demanded conversion to Orthodoxy, why could not be such converts among ethnic Jews? Such cases were documented. Ans-mo (talk) 12:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

That's quite a sweeping statement which needs to be backed up and placed in its correct copntext ... chronologically, geographically etc.

We know that the Nazi's had a special Jewish police operating in and around the ghettos. The reason, size, tasks can be discussed and disputed but they did exist and there is evidence that they existed. You may not like it, you may prefer to avoid such information, but the evidence does exist.

Similarly, there is evidence that there existed Jewish Cossacks. Where, exactly? Why?, how many etc? It is not up to us to say, just to report that there is evidence here and here in studies here and here and distortions here and here etc.

As there is evidence that there have existed Jewish vegetarians. Existence ≠ Notability. (Actually, the 'evidence' is mostly about an individual here and there, and a half-year failed experiment somewhere else...) Jd2718 (talk) 12:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

History is not as clean cut, sanitized and well catagorized as we may presume. Bandurist (talk) 10:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Ans-mo, the concept of "Jews by blood" which assumes Jews' being an ethnicity is rather novel and dates itself only to the twentieth century. In the earlier context the concept is an outright anachronism. You probably know that in the Russian Empire "Jew" was a social status that entitled the person's position in the society giving him/her certain burdens (as well as some rights), Main burdens were the residence restrictions, education quotas, land ownership restrictions as well as some others. So, as you certainly know as well, these restrictions were immediately revoked as soon as the person converted to Orthodox Christianity. In fact the was no concept of ethnicity at all (Jewish or not) in the context of the earlier times. The 1897 Russian Census queried about the mother tongue and religion and only these concepts were firmly established by then. Here we are talking even much earlier times. "Jews by ethnic background" is certainly an anachronism for Cossack times and the Jewish person who converted to Christianity was not anymore a Jew in any meaningful sense. --Irpen 18:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The concept of "Jews by blood" as direct descendants of "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" is a well-known and important concept of the Bible and therefore is known for all Christian communities. Maybe different times and circumstances produced different interpretations to that, but the point of blood could not be omitted.Ans-mo (talk) 09:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Cossack Uprising and the Deluge

If Jewish population at the time of the Uprising was about fifty thousand, how the uprising could cost the life of fifty thousand or hundred thousands of jews, as say the text?--Enkiduk (talk) 03:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

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File:Vadim Rabinovich.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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"Notable Ukrainian Jews"

I deleted a number of entries from the list of Notable Ukrainian Jews because this does not correctly describe the individuals. Specifically:

Nimoy was born in Boston, Massachusetts

Shatner was born on March 22, 1931, in the Côte Saint-Luc neighbourhood of Montreal

Chomsky was born on December 7, 1928, to Jewish parents in the affluent East Oak Lane neighborhood of Philadelphia

Barr was born in Salt Lake City

Peter Yarrow was born in New York City, New York

Carl Sagan was born in Brooklyn, New York

Goffman was born in 1922 in Mannville, Alberta

The above are quotes from their respective Misplaced Pages entries. Being descended from immigrants does not give the child the parents' nationality. I have removed these entries from the section on Notable Ukrainian Jews. Larry Koenigsberg (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I see that Burakov stuck Shatner & Nimoy back into the article. I have removed them again (see a few lines above for their birthplaces). Note that others in the list in the article (Kunis, Salta and Stern) moved to the US in childhood or, in Stern's case, in infancy. To me it seems tendentious to refer to them as Ukrainian Jews. They are Ukrainian-born American Jews. I have created separate lists for "Ukrainian-descended American Jews" and "Ukrainian-born American Jews." Perhaps this will satisfy those who wish to claim them as Ukrainian Jews. Larry Koenigsberg (talk) 19:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Collage of Ukrainian Jews

I crated a collage of Ukrainian Jews which includes:

Sholom Aleichem • Leon Trotsky • Isaak Babel • Mila Kunis
Golda Meir • Vladimir Horowitz • Waldemar Haffkine • Selman Waksman

It was hard to create because the majority of Ukrainian and American Jews have at least one grandfather from Belarus, but I decided to stick to those who actually were born in Ukraine. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 12:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• Start-Class Jewish history-related articles
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