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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm| 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 (709 kb) Archive 2 (698 kb) Archive 3 (648 kb) Archive 4 (103 kb) Archive 5 (113 kb) Archive 6 (327 kb) Archive 7 (225 kb) Archive 8 (215 kb) Archive 9 (139 kb) Fadix's Analysis: Fadix Analysis (575 kb) A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars

Turkish HR recognition of genocide

So let me get this straight, just because some guy called Steve O'connell in an article of his says that the Turkish Human Rights organization recognizes the so called genocide, that it should be constituted as true? If you are going to provide evidence, might as well refer to the source, not Tom, Dick or Harry!!! Lutherian 15:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

When it happens that the co-founder of the organisation has his publishing house and edit works regarding the genocide, and that he says that the Turkish human right organisation recognize it, I'd qualify this as recognition. Fad (ix) 17:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The guy is a published writer, you can't just shoot him down for no reason. Is there any reason to suggest that he plays fast and loose with the facts? Fightindaman 16:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont care if he was the pope, can you explain to me why there is no mention of this recognition on the OFFICIAL TURKISH HUMAN RIGHTS WEBSITE? Am I missing something here or is this topic totally biased? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lutherian (talk • contribs) .

I'm not familiar with the website, would you care to post a link? Fightindaman 19:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The website is here (IHD). I didn't find anything, but I don't read Turkish. All the same, the consilience of the many results I get through googling convinces me beyond reasonable doubt that the Insan Haklari Dernegi did refer to a genocide as the article claims. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

You dont need to read Turkish, there is an English section on the site and there is NO mention of genocide! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.76.137.159 (talk • contribs) .

This is correct. A google search of the website reveals the use of the word genocide only once, and that was in connection with Saddam Hussein. Fightindaman 05:04, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Ragib Zarakolu is the co-founder of the organization, and has a publishing house editing books about the genocide. The organization has also an extention with Human Rights Association Turkey-Germany, which not only recognize the Armenian genocide but also protest its denial and sign petitions etc. Fad (ix) 15:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well perhaps you could re-add it, as Lutherian removed it. —Khoikhoi 18:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me rephrase what I said earlier: Unless there is an explicit mention of the so called Armenian "genocide" on the official TURKISH HR web site, it is misleading to assume that this is the case. If the co-founder supposedly published material on the "genocide" this constitutes opinion and nothing else. Again, the keyword here is OFFICIAL and there is no indication of an official recognition. Lutherian 18:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The organization members were thrown in prison in various occasion for having attempted to publish any materials. The publishing houses Zarakollu runs is an intermedary publishing unite to publish human right materials, its archive contained various documentations from the Human right organization before it was destroyed by fire. Its extention in Germany (Human Rights Association Turkey-Germany) doesn't manage its word and officialy recognize it. Every Turkish human right organizations I know of recognize the genocide. Info-Turk, another Turkish human right organization has published articles relating to such issues and its founders officially recognize the Armenian genocide. Fad (ix) 19:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

We know that IHD is a Kurdish organization, no wonder they make such statements. Info-Turk is also supporting PKK and DHKP-C terrorist organizations. Info-Turk's homepage in French mentions terrorist names like they're normal citizens: "des dimensions scandaleuses par l'arrestation du citoyen belge Bahar Kimyongur aux Pays-Bas et de la journaliste kurde Zubeyde Ersoz au Luxembourg". Fadix come on let's play honest. --Gokhan 04:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats an excellent remark, Gokhan. These organizations are obviously set up as fronts by terrorist linked militant kurds to attack Turkey on any matter that they can come up with. And they go under the guise of a human rights organization to lend credence to their attacks, a bit like those farcical genocide scholars and their circus organizations. The fact that Fadix chooses to turn a blind eye on such a significant matter is proof that he is far from being objective on this topic! Tsk, tsk. Lutherian 05:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand the sentiment about the genocide issue. Fadix will naturally try to increase the list. As long as it's clean and honest, no problem. If I saw one, I'd add myself. But I don't understand why these genocide people generally also support PKK. They contribute much time in PKK/Apo/Kurds etc articles. I know they may think "what's bad for Turks is good for us" however PKK is a terrorist organization killing people. I hope the contributions are not done on enmity and hatred only. Because each day people are killed in Turkey, both Turks and Kurds, and not Turkish government, military nor PKK is hurt actually. Only real people and their families pay the high price. There are some human rights issues in our country, and we need work together with parties involved. Sanctioning PKK won't help this cause. Diaspora is also acting against EU candidacy or financial aids to Turkey etc, which is fine and understandable. But please no killing, no PKK, no DHKP-C. --Gokhan 06:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Generally support the PKK? I haven't seen those participating in this article getting involved in PKK issues. The IHD is registered by the Internarnational human right organization as the Turkish human right organinization including the Human right foundation. Obviously there are Kurds in this organization, but you don't expect refusing Kurdish members do you? As for Info-Turk. It doesn't support the PKK, I have followed this organization for years, regularly read their articles. You must consider that the PKK has two branch, one componment also include intellectuals and activists. If Info-Turk is a corrupted news source than Al-jasira should be sued. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadix (talk • contribs) diff

I don't know about Al-Jazeera and frankly I don't care. However I know that terrorist organizations from Turkey find safe havens in Europe, specifically in Netherlands, Belgium, France and Germany under disguise of political or human rights entities. Those governments give citizenship to these people, do not deliver to Turkey when caught, and support their organizations fiscally. In Netherlands and Greece there're PKK training camps. Denmark supports Roj TV which initiated the latest bloodshed in southeast by media propaganda. IHD and similar organizations seem legitimate and probably there are good-willed people in them, but politically they are working against the good of people of Turkey. Also they provide an opportunity to westerners or anti-turkish camps to express enmity towards Turkey. Anyway these are facts. I'm also human, I also have rights, I'm also from Turkey and none of these organizations work for me. Human Rights in Turkey is not equal Kurds. PKK is a bloody terrorist organization, killing both civilians and soldiers. All of the killed/scarred people also had once human rights. I frankly don't care wiki-style naming/wording politics running on related articles :) --Gokhan 07:06, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You guys have wandered a bit from the topic at hand. In the course of it you seem to have implicitly acknowledged that the organization does, in fact, support the characterization of genocide. The question really is what citation is best.

I really don't think that anyone is taking the position that somebody killing somebody else is good -- recently, or a century ago. The underlying point of an article such as this one is to document a historic event as a lesson to the future to not repeat it. --Moby 06:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Moby the same as you or others here, I dream of a peaceful & hateless world without any killing. The discussion and my personal focus here is not about the article itself though. My point is that the organizations mentioned by Fadix here are biased. At least that point should be mentioned together with their names, because it may be political. If they have an official declaration of acknowledgement somewhere that can be documented, then pls go ahead and add their names to the list, np. --Gokhan 06:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I've looked for information on this organization and didn't find much; mayby someone should start an article on it. If an organization can reasonably be discredited then it should not be used as a citation. I believe that the TallArmenianTale site is a good example of a discredited site.

See Also: Genocide on the march (about Darfur) --Moby 07:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but the real issue of contention here is whether the events of 1915-16 amounts to genocide and there are two very opposite views on this. The problem is that neither side makes concessions and neither side is objective on the matter and we thus end up going around in circles with endless claims and counter claims. The Armenian disapora have a well documented hatred towards anything even remotely Turkish, a bit like the Turks more traditional enemies the Greeks and the Cypriots (just look at the number of Cypriot hate sites out there). In this highly charged context, it is impossible to approach the subject with genuine good will and its complete and utter failure on whats suppose to be a neutral platform like Wiki is a clear testament of this 81.62.136.98 09:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

How do you expect to be credible when you use words such as 'enemies,' and no the issue is not complicated, neither is the goal to determine if it is a enocide or not. The issue is very simple, Misplaced Pages is not here to determine anything, this is not a platform for people to discuss what the true is or not. We simply provide informations on what is said about a particular subject, what are the positions, who support such, such and such position and who doesn't etc. This was the reason why the Turkish human right organization was included and not the boost the 'claim' of genocide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadix (talk • contribs) diff

How do I expect to be credible when mentioning a pure and simple fact? Are you kidding me? Look at the history, it speaks for itself! Ever since the events that unfolded during the collapse of the Ottoman empire, the majority of Armenians have adopted a very hostile attitude towards Turks. Hell they even went on a killing spree during the 70's and 80's, indiscrimenately murdering Turkish diplomats, their spouses, children and others. All the while, the hypocritical Europeans where turning a blind eye. But the murderous strategy of those low life terrorist thugs was bound to fail and it finally did when Turkish special forces wiped them out for good. It is therefore wishfull thinking to have an Armenian approach this subject objectively and in good faith and, as a result, there will be no agreement, especially not one that is forced upon the Turks. 81.62.136.98 16:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Lutherian, what are you doing in Misplaced Pages, seriously? Since you are not here to contribute writting articles, but rather call other ethnic groups as enemies, what is your goal as a Wikipedian? Fad (ix) 16:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Fadix, since the spirit of wiki articles is to be as objective as possible on any subject matter, it is also my duty to make sure that this is the case. This topic is probably the one that is furtherest away from that goal and leaves a lot to be desired. I mean whats next? A link to a quote by someone's neighbor who supports the genocide thesis? To this day, I have yet to discover an Armenian who treats this subject objectively. Its more like science fiction! Lutherian 18:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevent, we are discussing about the official Turkish human right organization, and its take is relevent. Fad (ix) 22:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Fadix, what is this "official" means? This IHD is just an organization with a name which means "Insan Haklari Dernegi" which means "Human Rights Organization". It's just a name, it doesn't mean it's an official or representative organization of Turkey in any sense. It's an NGO. Their objectivity is also disputed but that's something else. If they have an opinion on that, it's theirs only. You should stop using this "official" thing. Thanks. --Gokhan 05:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I think similarly on this issue. It's a mess. I also wonder what will happen after (if) this issue is (ever) resolved. All this built-up hatred won't go away. So nobody will win again. It's pity. --Gokhan 09:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the specific question of the THRO's position. The larger question is not about to be solved here anytime soon. The wiki-process here may influence some people (in a positive way) and may influence real-world events (in a small way). Major progress here will only be driven by major real-world progress. The fact the articles such as this one can't be sorted-out is a fundamental failure of the wiki paradigm. --Moby 10:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

BIASED

It's weird that I did not see any text stating that the Armenians killed hundreds of Turks and burned their towns although it is a fact. This article is obviously biased. How ridicilous that some people, who has nothing better to do, rely on writing factually inaccurate articles to empose what they think to the others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.103.159.14 (talk • contribs) .

It is almost as weird as not seeing text about the Jewish massacres of poor Nazi Germans... I just don't understand. --RaffiKojian 15:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

RaffiKojian, as a Jew, I condemn you for comparing the Holocaust to an intercommunal strife. My grandparents (my mother's father and her grandmother) have been murdered by the ARMENIANS as many other villages around were burned down by the Armenians in Anatolia. For G-d's sake, can you cite one event in 1930's and 1940's in Germany that a Jew burned down a village, killed Germans? No, you can't. As you always do, you are trying to appeal to our pity, but drop this nonsense mission. Enough's enough. You cannot change history and you cannot erase the guilt of your ancestors, who caused more than half a million deaths of Ottoman Jews and Muslims. For the first time in history, why don't you admit that your ancestors started an intercommunal war and even caused more deaths than they suffered? Is it that hard to accept the facts? Please, enough with your propaganda. If you wish to continue your baseless claims, at least stop mentioning the Holocaust because it is just another suffering for us to see you USE the massacres of millions of Jews for you own sake. Your sake: to squander money from Turkish government, to found a new anew Armenia on Turkish land, to continue killing more Muslims as well as Jews in Anatolia... --David R. Tzur

I don't think so.. since one is accepted by the German govenment and people, one is not accepted by the Turkish govenment and people. And Turkey has strong evidences.

Btw, someone should create an article on how Americans "genocided" the Indians and placed a few remaining Indians into a camp to protect them afterwards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.103.159.14 (talk • contribs) .

You mean like: Indian massacres and Native Americans in the United States? --RaffiKojian 15:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Well it figures, the Armenians have a roughly 70 year lead over the Turks for their highly opiniated view of the events of that period. No wonder world opinion sides with the Armenians, during all those years they have been exposed to a biased one sided view of that tragic period of history! The Turks finally woke up and realized that the "peace and home, peace abroad" formula did not work anymore (the wake up call came around the time when brainwashed fanatic Armenian thugs went on a killing spree in the 70's and 80's, killing totally innocent Turkish diplomats and their families). Bottom line, there is a lot of catching up to do but now the ball is finally rolling! 81.62.143.131 18:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Show me a non-internet source for your claims. This Armenian genocide thing is for some reason just a support for people who hate Turks. On another point, even if the genocide happened (it didn't) you can NOT blame all the Turks for something the ruler did.

The Armenians were even given a name like "The Trusted Nation" by the Ottoman Empire because they never acted against the government and were living peacefully. Though this fact changed after "Ayastefanos" when Armenians unjustly demanded a country of theirs. and during the war, instead of repaying the debt of the peace Ottoman Empire provided them, they attacked MANY Turkish villages killed MANY Turkish people. As a result they were migrated to a seperate area, which caused a lot of people to die. It doesn't sound like a genocide does it?

Also, the Armanians never lead over the Turks. Wonder where you get those information.. maybe by making up?

My advice to you is that you should read ALL sources about the subject, not just the ones that are biased.

On another note, the "peace at home, peace in the world" was the politics AFTER the war. So it's factually inaccurate to say "The Turks finally woke up and realized that the "peace and home, peace abroad" formula did not work anymore" since at that time, that phrase wasn't even said by Ataturk. Check your information before making any claims.

Need more objective sources

I frankly think we need to present some objective sources about the Armenian struggle against Turkish government for an independent state. (We know that Armenians who wished to establish an independent Christian state in Eastern Anatolia similar to its counterparts in the Balkans have established the Black Cross, Armenekan, Homeland Defenders Committees in Anatolia, the Hincakh Committee in Geneva and the Tashnak Committee in Tbilisi).

I think the activities of Armenian organizations are also a key issue. Currently there is small info about those revolts, they are mentioned as "minor". However what these organizations did against local Turkish population is unknown.

Because in my opinion the tragedy has 2 major players: Young Turks team in Ottoman Government and Armenian militia organizations helped by Russia. Each had its own agenda. The Turkish and Armenian local population must have been inescapely turned against each other because of the bloodshed and propaganda.

I think the current approach mostly ignores the faith of local Turkish population and political activities of Armenian organizations. I know my Armenian friends would not concur, but I'm not trying to minimize any suffering or justify any outcome. However shouldn't we explore this line of reasoning as well? --Gokhan 08:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

It rather depends what you're trying to achieve. Someone might say that you were trying to minimise the impact of the events in question by saying "oh well the Armenians - made us do it/were just as bad". If the conduct of these partisan groups is mentioned as a fact and nothing more, then there might be room for it. If it is used for a justification, then they should not go in. And certainly it shouldn't be more than a paragraph or two. If you want to have a separate article on the political breakdown and conflict inside the Ottoman Empire then fair enough. But really we're talking about the massacres/genocide. There is no room for caveats in the Nanjing Massacre page, the Holocaust, etc so why should a similar page about Armenians have to have lots about how Armenians "were as much to blame", etc? I'm not saying that you're trying to make that happen, but that is the danger if your idea is taken too far. John Smith's 11:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me answer your last question. Holocaust is totally proved and the Germans accepted it, but the Armenian "genocide" is not proved and is not accepted by Turkey.

There are links to things like the "Armenian Militia" already, but they have no content. Why don't you spend your time adding content to those places? It would be more helpful than starting another content dispute here, which may happen even if you don't want one. John Smith's 11:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

If the point of any wikipedia article is to present info in a "just" and "correct" way, then the things I mentioned need to have a place in this article as a background information. There are real facts that affected the happening of an historical event. There is a section already in this article called "The situation of the Armenians in Anatolia", which is historically situated by previous editors before the event. So this information can easily be inserted there. A well prepared paragraph with good sources shouldn't be a problem. --Gokhan 16:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The point of contention here is whether or not the events of 1915 onwards constitutes genocide. The problem facing those that support the genocide thesis is that their reasoning and supporting evidence is flawed in many instances. For example, it is a matter of fact that the Armenians enjoyed a special status as loyal subjects amongst the various communities of the empire. Towards the latter part of the empire's existance, Armenians held various positions of stature within the government structure. It seems odd that such a well integrated community would suddenly be singled out for genocide. Furthermore, the alleged genocide occured whilst the empire was at its weakest point. If the Ottoman Turks truly had a desire of ridding itself of the Armenians, it would have made much more sense for it to occur in the 16th century, at the height of its power. If we look at history, genocidal killings occur when the perpetrators are at the peak of their power, not when they are at their weakest point. Another misleading accusation of the genocide supporters is that the rebellion in Van was sparked by news that the central government had ordered relocation of the local Armenians. The uprising occured in April 1915, way before the central government issued relocation orders! The true reason behind the rebellions was the evil revolutionary committees that persuaded the local community that they would have their own land and that the Russian army was within striking distance! So the motivation was plain and simple greed and I say this because the Armenians were generally well disposed in the empire. These are just examples amongst many of discrepencies with the arguments of those that support the genocide thesis! Lutherian 20:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is totally irrelevent, initiated by the same person that launched an RfD on this article. There is no point of contention here, we users are not here to determine anything but simply write an encyclopedia. This point isen't getting accross, and I will not start questioning the intelligence of some users for not comprehending what an encyclopedia is and what is the purpouses of Misplaced Pages, but simply say that if you are not here to contribute in the writting of articles, you have no place here. We are not in a forum and it isen't that forums are missing. BTW, just one correction, the first official order of evacuation of the Armenians wasn't after April, but March 2, and you will find this in the so-called 'Osmanli Belgelerinde Ermeniler, 1915-1920' (Ankara 1994), pay attention to the second document, it's dated Marche 2. As for the rest, if you pay attention, I have decided to ignore anything that is not even remotly related to the article. Fad (ix) 22:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. We are just trying to keep this encyclopedia correct and just. The thing to be critisized is your intelligence not ours since you are trying to conceal the unjustness of this article by accusing people. I am simply trying to contribute to this article by removing it's unjustness and you are not the one to critisize my existence here. On another point, using derogetory words is not the way of a kind user and I believe THEY are the ones who are not needed here in Misplaced Pages. Nuage bulut 14:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

No, actually, questioning the intelligence of someone that still doesn't get how Misplaced Pages work after explaining him countless numbers of time isen't a personal attack. Misplaced Pages isen't here to tell what the truth is, neither has the 'justfullness' in the context of an encyclopedia is relevant. The position that a genocide happened does exist, a position accepted by most historians in the West. Misplaced Pages collect positions no matter of what the truth is or not. That the position that a genocide occured does exist, and has a place in Misplaced Pages and no one can do anything about this. This article has also a large section covering the Turkish government position. Fad (ix) 15:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Then Misplaced Pages has to rethink its rules. It's obvious that your claim "wikipedia is not here to tell the truth" is just your very opinion, though. and I assume it wouldn't be a personal attack if I called you "lame" because of it. If what you said was actually true, then Misplaced Pages would have no EDIT Button.

Either way, I am not here to discuss what the aim of Misplaced Pages is. So while aswering to my statements, try not to go out of the subject as it gets really boring to read a long reply that doesn't respond to even one of my points. Nuage bulut 18:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

As I stated to you earlier, im not here to contribute articles (although that may change), im here to help fix all the misleading comments scattered throughout the article Lutherian 05:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Where have you done that, the only thing you officially removed, you yourself haven't denied its accuracy(the Turkish human right organization), but when I documented it, you had gone accusing them as PKK supporters and demonized them, as if demonizing them will make of the organization non-existing thosefor as something that should not be included. You are debating about your interpretations and not about the article and if whatever or not the positions presented exist or not. Fad (ix) 16:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

My dear Fadix, first of all, it was Gokhan who pointed out about the terrorist links, secondly all I asked from you is an official recognition from the site itself, which you were unable to provide. Instead you came up with half baked arguments that the co founder supported the genocide thesis etc. I asked for the THR to be removed from the list because there is no proof that it recognizes the so called genocide. Maybe you have telepathy in which case I would appreciate it if you could share the trick with us!!! Lutherian 17:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Where does the site contain any section about their official position? I haven't only presented the position of the co-founder, but rather also pointed to the fact that his publishing house is the major center of the organizations published material. It's extention in Germany each April 24 take part in the commemoration of the genocide. And we have a published source saying it recognize it. There are sufficiant references that the organization does recognize it, but you refuse them. Fad (ix) 18:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Does it really matter in what epoch the genocide occurred? Why didn't the French slaughter the Jews in the early 1800s? After all, Napoleon was at the height of his power, there were wars being waged in Europe, things were perfect and no one would have suspected a thing.=| The fact is that although Ottoman rulers were generally cruel and harsh, they had no desire to destroy the Armenians; most probably because they were merchants and made up a crucial part of the economy. It doesn't matter if the Armenians were killed at the height of Turkish power or at its lowest.

Are you suggesting that the French slaughtered Jews during WW2? Well thats news to me because AFAIK, the French where just collaborators who sent Jews to the Nazi killing machine. The ones who physically joined the slaughter where further to the East most of whom are the newest entrants into the EU. And I cant believe that you are suggesting that the Armenian subjects where tolerated throughout the life of the empire mainly for strategic reasons, there is more than ample evidence that the Armenian community enjoyed a special status within the empire. Many held very high positions within the government, sorry but your hate theory just does not hold! The Nazis started slaughtering Jews at the peak of their power just like the Spanish killed, converted or expelled their Jewish subjects during the height of their religious rule. Your example with their French is just plain silly! Lutherian 05:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised why you don't mention that the "uprisings" in Van and elsewhere were intentionally provoked by Ottoman military units (raping and killing women and children, killing men, the crippled) at the behest of the government to give off a distorted image and excuse that a rebellion was occuring (Armenians fought back and hence Turkish soldiers were killed which were the perfect excuse to be used); a view that was unanimously rejected by the European and American diplomats, mainly the Germans and Austro-Hungarians. Ambassador Morgenthau even wrote in his memoirs that Turkish leaders even went to Van and asked that they (Armenians) go to Russia and stir revolutionary feelings to cause a rebellion against the Russian empire. The consensus is that there was no rebellion in 1915. --MarshallBagramyan 21:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop portraying the Armenians as innocent bystanders going on with their life peacefully and in total harmony until one day the Ottoman Turks decided to exterminate them. The Armenians were the evildoers, they were armed to their teeth when the rebellions started, there is an abundance of evidence that shows this. Im not saying that the Turks were totally innocent, bloodshed begets bloodshed but I damn well will defend the Turkish view if you and your team mates continue to make fictitious claims like the ones you did above Lutherian 17:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all, cool off guys. I'm not trying to start a debate here. I understand your sentimental reaction and won't get into a discussion. I've read this article and discussions. I learned your point of view. I also already mentioned I'm not trying (or feel the need) to justify or belittle any suffering. I also didn't want to start a discussion for pleasure, I wanted to get your opinions about how to add some points to the article. So let's assume good faith on both sides.

I just want to explore what the operations of Armenian committees were during/before this period. And what happened to Turkish people in Anatolia at that time. I hope you don't think they all went to a killing frenzy and then lived happily everafter. There are also some massgraves of Turks found or witness accounts just as Armenian witness accounts exist. I believe some inter-communal violence also occured. There are some theories about the timing & locations of rebellions sync'ing with Russian incursions. I don't have sources now, that's why I wanted to ask you wikipedians instead of just "vandalizing" the article. I wanted to know if that was a possible addition to the article?

As there are people involved to which this article puts the blame on executing a genocide, focusing on one party and ignoring the rest as "so-called" or "irrelevant" doesn't sound fair to me. Or any contradictary sources always labelled as "made up by Turkish government" or "unreliable because the source's wife is Turkish"... Anyway there's no end to this discussion, and I got my response from some constructive comments from both sides, so let's finish this here. Thanks. --Gokhan 04:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the purpose of the example of the French is to show how inane your logic is. Just because a nation is at its most powerful state doesn't mean it will then commit a genocide. The Tutsis and the Hutus were dirt poor in Rwanda but nothing stopped the Hutus from buying wholesale butcher knives and slaughering them. Yugoslavia was at the brink of economic breakdown in the 90s yet nothing stopped them from attacking and slaughtering the Bosnians. Pol Pot's regime was just recovering from the Vietnam War and they slaughtered millions of people with impunity. The Ottoman Empire had an easier time since its target was a defenseless population that was unfortunately all too eager and too willing to contribute men and supplies to the war effort.

It doesn't need any more explaining when you cite the fact that since there were no grossly violent acts against Armenians in 1915 (a false charge irregardless), then a Genocide in 1915 would never happend either. Its the reductio ad absurdum and quite a weak strawman. Nevermind the fact that there were the antecedants to the Genocide: the Hamidian massacres, the Adana massacre and the entire Tanzimat era that began in the 1840s to address the issue of improving Turkey's subject's rights. Yes some Armenian organizations advocated that the Ottoman government be overthrown; afterall, they had a pathetic record in regards to safeguarding peoples especially the Armenians and all the previous massacres only reinforced the conclusion that there was no safe protection if Armenians continued to live under Turkish rule.

you have no right to lessen the suffering of Moslems in the hands of the Armenians and their Russian supporters in the area. The only ones to blame for the massacres are your revolutionary committeese. It is a well documented fact that Armenains murdered hundreds of thousands of moslems the region simply due to greed (promise of land). Your claims have gone way over line and the complete disregard of moslems in this tragedy is a reflection of the general racist attitude and the policy of perpetual hatred against the Turks that your relatives have successfully convinced you of! 83.79.110.144 07:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

And how do you know those mass graves are bodies of that of Turks and not of Armenians? Robert Fisk, a famous British journalist who has spend over 30 years in the Middle East actually travelled to Syria and actually uncovered the same mass graves near Aleppo and Deir-ez-Zor. Of the 1,000,000-1,500,000 Armenians living in Armenian prior to 1915 only 50,000 remain, 99% in Istanbul, what happend, if not Genocide? If it was just a simple two way streey, civil war, most Armenians would have returned by now and resettled back into their homes. --MarshallBagramyan 06:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Marshall, what I try to say is very simple actually: You people keep saying denial means killing those people twice (as it's said in the turkish denial ad that is given in western media). But I also say making this thing a 100% planned genocide in black & white terms, condemning a whole nation with such an act and denying any Turkish loss of life (in the hands of Armenian committees and Armenian legions supported by Russia and France) is the same. If you believe in former, you should believe in the latter as well. If you're offended by the former, you should be offended by the latter. That is only what I'm saying. The burden could be more on the shoulders of Ottoman government, I can understand that. However for real peace, and I don't mean any french anti-denial law or canadian parliament decision or arnold schwarzenegger speach, we mutually need to respect each other's loss. The aim of any involved person should be this. That's my honest opinion. I hope you understand. --Gokhan 07:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a typical Armenain POV: anyone that supports the genocide is famous or unbaised or honorable or an authority on the matter or any comibination of the four whilst anyone that opposes this view is a paid agent of the Turkish state. You have to get over your soviet era view of things, its ridiculous! 83.79.110.144 07:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Mr Marshall, Poll Pot was not Vietnamese and if your referring to the war, it was after the American's pulled out of Vietnam that Communism could grow stronger in the region. The American pull out left a power vacuum and the Communists filled this void and achieved the hight of their power during this period, hence the massacre's began.

The Ruandan situation is completely different one of the reason's was European theories of race that led to the Holocaust. These ideas were propagated by John Hanning Speke's initial work. Unlike the other mixed states of Africa, Rwandans were considered by Europeans to be on the border between Blacks and the "more noble" Hamites. Tutsis were viewed as Hamites and Hutus as inferior Bantus. This ingrained racism was reversed upon independence when the majority Hutus took to viewing the Tutsis as foreign invaders and not true Rwandans. Similar divisions have led to violence in other parts of northeast Africa.

In Britain, the allegations of Genocide have been rejected, I have researched the matter thoroughly and its evident from the arhive's that what happened cannot be called a genocide.

The Malta Tribunals were carried out by the Brittish, we had all the sources, document's and access to anything we wished. However, even with everything open to us after trying to Ottoman officials they were found not guilty.

The Brittish had no reason's to hide any evidence, quite the contrary anything reliable would have been used as they were a WW1 enemy.

Brittish propaganda operative's were busy doing there job during the war, promoting anti-Ottoman sentiment among the people, this is natural in a war. Howerver, what is disturbing is to see Armenian Extremists using clear War Propoganda as historical fact, just scratch the surface and you'll realise what a total and utter hoax it all is.

Stories of the "Terrible Turk", the "Barbarian's from the East", "sub-human monsters who ravage like locusts", "The kill all Christians in their path". Are just some of the ridiculous stories produced.

Its typical war-time propoganda.

The actual fact's however state, millions of Ottoman muslims in the Balkans, Eastern Anatolia and the Caucauses were brutally massacred and killed and in some area's totally ethnically cleansed.

There is an estimate of over 5 million being killed between 1840's-1920 and 6 million refugee's.

Its ridiculous to state that the Ottoman's carried out a systematic genocide, they had more important things to deal with such as fighting a global super power the Brittish and the French.

If you add to that the fact that Russia was invading from the East aswell as arming, training and funding Armenian Millitary organisations to rebel and fight for an Independant state you start to get the picture of what a sorry state the Ottomans were in.

They had to battle on all front's, the West, South, North and East.

Now, there was not a state funded racist and opressive program against Armenians in Ottoman-Armenian history. There were no previous hostilities between the Armenian and Muslim people's. The Ottoman's did not create state propoganda and write books and thesis' on why and how the Armenian nation should be destroyed or that they were inferior etc.

All this and alot more happened to Jews in the Holocoust plus alot, lot more.

The Ottomans were on the defensive, they were not the agressor's in the situation, they had every right to defend agaist the Russian and Armenian attack's, just like they fought against the Brittish, French and Greek.

If we all followed the Armenian extremists logic, the Ottomans comitted a genocide against the Brittish as we lost hundred's of thousands of men but then we would be ignoring that the Brittish interests in the region was occupation and colonisation and that hundreds of thousands infact millions of Turks died during the same war.

The reality is, more Turks died than all the invading force's put together.

I haven't heard any sympathy for their lost one's, any memorial's or recognition for their heroic defense of their homeland.

Its clear 1.5 million Armenians did not die, that figure is invented however the suffering of the millions of Turks in the same war that were killed have become the silent sufferers.

Armenians must face the terms that the pain they feel for their lost one's is equal to those Turks who lost their lost one's in the war.

That is why Great Britain has rejected the Armenian allegations and others will follow in our brave footsteps to challenge those who wish have no regard for history or facts.

Regards

JohnStevens5

Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile

Is so called Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile an official int. body? If not why is it in official recognition list? If so, it means we can add all kinds of organisations to anywhere we want.--Hattusili 17:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Not only that, its a well known matter of fact that they have links to the PKK terrorist organization, go figure! Lutherian 19:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a registered organization, and this is the only thing that matters here. Fad (ix) 22:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Really, this made me laugh.. Nuage bulut 14:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean as registered? So if you are a terrorist organization and register yourself in a country that sympathizes with you, that makes you official? Thats what I call premium camel fodder! 83.79.110.144 06:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Call it terrorist, devil incarnate and whatever you want to make of that organization, doesn't change the fact that it exist and it do recognize it. It is not the 'terroristism' of an organization which excludes it from Misplaced Pages, and this no matter if it happens that one of its members killed Princess Diana. Fad (ix) 16:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

TAT is a personal website registered under a proxy, while on the other hand we have a registered organization which you want to exclude. TAT has copied materials from the newgroups from 'Multu' aka his various alias, the historic newsgroup spammer who even has an entry about him on Misplaced Pages. Various of those materials have been tracked to be total fabrications the fruit of Multu's immagination which were recycled by so-called Holdwater. He also recycled materials from a forum member calling himself Ismet the Historian who sarcastically was inventing quotes, quotes that were admitted poetry by the author himself. Holdwater also slanders various academics as well as place racial slurs. He present his supposed formula which is Turk=Truth and tells reader to have this formula in mind. He provides supposed genetic bases of inferiority to Armenians, in this very same site(Misplaced Pages), under his alias Torque, claimed that what he has been saying about Armenians 'true nature' (characters) isen't racism but simply the truth. The exclusion of TAT has been widely supported and I have justified it in various occasion. You do not deny the factuality of the information that the Kurdish organization do recognize the genocide, on the other hand, I have shown that the materials Holdwater present in his site, various of them don't even exist. This is not about whatever or not I accept the position maintained and supported by the author, but rather the fact that various materials presented do not exist and I have provided many examples to the author himself, but yet knowing well that those do not exist, he still maintain them in his site. Fad (ix) 18:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Do they even deserve to be in the list of groups recognising genocide, when their declaration does not even mention genocide, but only massacres? --A.Garnet 17:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The declaration recognize that the Ottoman government planed those massacres, so it does qualify as recognition. Fad (ix) 18:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Geez, Fadix, you display a complete lack of tact, the list of organizations are those that recognize and accept the term "GENOCIDE", not massacres not killings not anything else. The point that Garnet is making here is that this terrorist organization recognizes the events as a massacre, capiche? Lutherian 18:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

You are making things up, there is a difference between calling it Armenian massacre, and massacres of Armenian, the Turkish government doesn't recognize it as a massacre, it claims that there was some excess by Kurds. The organization called it the Armenian massacre and say it has been planned by the government, which is considered as a recognition. Fad (ix) 17:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre)

The declaration recognize that the government planned those massacres, it recognize the intentionalist position of the nature of the massacres. Fad (ix) 18:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm interesting point, I didnt realize that genocide could be interchanged with massacre, thats a first because there is more than a subtle difference between a genocide and a massacre. As a matter of fact, the Turkish government goes as far as calling the events a massacre so where's the beef? Lutherian 18:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL, thats what happens when you rush into things but in the case of Fadix, im afraid he is not being honest with himself! Lutherian 18:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

what is to be made of the footnote for the PKE from Cilicia.com considering its contents are very different from the ANI version of the statement? --A.Garnet 18:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Armin Wegner photo usage

I wanted to mention that I have gotten permission to use the Wegner photos on Misplaced Pages under the conditions they specified on my talk page. You can use the copies off of Armeniapedia.org, or if you have better copies can use them. --RaffiKojian 18:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Official Recognition

I removed the speculations on why the US and Israel do not recognize Armenian genocide claims. Unless you back it up with official statements from spokespersons for these countries these are simply POV. If this to be allowed, by the same token, one can argue that the states that recognize Armenian claims, do it mainly due to the strong Armenian diaspora lobby and internal politics, e.g., what's happening in France nowadaysDeepblue06 23:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not speculation when it comes to saying it is not recognized due to fear of Turkish reprisals/offense and more importantly fear that military base usage will not be extended/allowed use, etc. These are the exact arguements used in discussions of the issue in congress, by the US Presidents/State Dept when asking congressmen to leave the issue alone. There should be some sources for this out there - especially in congressional sources. Nobody argues that it shouldn't be recognized because it didn't happen. --RaffiKojian 02:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well then, as deep blue pointed out, we should add that France recognizes the Armenian genocide due to the influence of the powerful Armenian lobby, because it is as valid as your argument that countries like the US and Isreal dont recognize it for strategic reasons. Your claims that the only superpower in the world doesnt recognize the genocide because of fears of Turkish repraisals is just plain silly. Did the recognition of the so called "genocide" by a number of countries have any materially negative consequences on them? Do I have to remind you that the cold war is over? Lutherian 05:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, two pages which have direct quotes backing up the reasons why the genocide claims are not accepted are on the ANCA website. I know you will not find the ANCA as NPOV, but the veracity of the quotes is what is in question, and I don't think anyone would deny them. For example, Indiana Republican Dan Burton, called attention to a September 15th letter to Committee Chairman Hyde, expressing the State Department's opposition to the measures. The letter noted that, "House floor debate on an Armenia resolution could damage U.S.-Turkish relations and could undermine progress by Ankara and Yerevan as they begin quiet talks to address the issue and look to the future." See and . --RaffiKojian 03:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Again thats speculation/conjecture, look for example at the countries that recognize the so called "genocide"! Last time I checked, trade between Turkey and France was doing very well, thank you very much! I dont know where you get your wishfull thinking fantasies that Turkey will one day accept to recognize a monumental lie and at the same time help improve the sorry condition of modern day Armenia. Now please tell me, what kind of preverse reasoning is that? Lutherian 05:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The Georgian quote was used as an example, the statement did not try to mislead the reading thinking this is the view of the US or Israel. Chaldean 02:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but ANCA sources do not cut it. It's not a neutral source on this subject as you pointed out to begin with and it does not directly cite an official for the State Department. There are only few individuals that can make official statements for the State Department (e.g, Secretary of State, Under Secretaries, Deparment of State spokesperson, etc). Furthermore, there is not a single reason why the US, Israel and alike do not accept genocide claims. Even if the ties with Turkey was one of them that is not sufficient to claim that it's the main reason. Simply, you cannot objectively rule out that they are not convinced to warrant the g-word.

More importantly, if one is allowed to discuss the motives of the countries that don't accept genocide claims then the motives of countries that passed genocide legislations should be also discussed. I can find hundreds of respected news articles relating the genocide legislations in these countries and Armenian diaspora's effect on domestic elections. Let's consider the case of France: In 2001, the first bill was passed coinciding with the domestic elections, 5 years later, the second bill is being discussed just ahead of the upcoming elections. It's simply cheap politicians trying to secure ethnic-Armenian votes as opposed truly believing in genocide. Don't you think why all of suddent these cheap politicians remember genocide just before the elections. I can cite many respectable sources (e.g., Le Figaro, Liberation of France) that will relate the motives of the socialist party to the domestic elections on this matter.

When one lists countries that passed genocide bills, it's no coincidence that all of them have significant presence of Armenian diaspora. For example, this explains why Argentina passed a legislation but Brazil did not, or why no East Asian state (e.g., China, India, Korea, Hong Kong, Japan, etc) passed similar legislations or any African nation for that matter.Deepblue06 05:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

What you are writting does not make much sense. While I agree that the version there was POV, deleting it entirly is also POV. That the US does not recognize it because of pressure is even not denied by its representatives. Have you actually watched the discussions on the floor and the reasons to not present it? What about Hastert exclusion for placing it to be voted? Not so long ago, there was even sources accusing him to have been pied to remove it from vote and the last one too has still to be placed for vote(and guess what, no, the source is not Armenian). Clinton himself had recieved a phone call by the president of the republic of Turkey the day it was supposed to be voted, and as a result it was removed before it got on the floor to be voted. Here in Canada before the last one that passed, the other was removed just before it had to be voted AFTER the prime minister recieved a call from Ankara. This is pretty well documented and not "Armenian propaganda". Also, you can not draw a cause and effect just because there is a correlation. For instance, you imply and even on the limit claim that the governments that recognize it do it because they have an important Armenian minority and to get votes. While the submition of the bill on a parlement before it get voted might be caused by this, passing it on vote and approving it is entirly another story. For example, when one point to the large Armenian minority in France, one might think that there is a clear advantages for recognizing it. But is it so? While France has near 500,000 Armenians residing there, it also has about 400,000 Turks, excluding Azeris. Coupled to this, all the contracts threatned to be canceled and finally cancelled, the threats of recalling of the ambassadors, all the waves with Turkey supposed official recognition of an Algerian Genocide etc., the boycotting of French products, and as a result those affected by all this voting against the party who mostly voted to pass such a bill, the Armenian minority of 500,000 is not sufficient pretext to justify such a decision. What about Germany? It has over 2 million Turks residing there. It really is not as simple as you want to convince yourself. The only country that the issue is not as clear cut, it is Israel, since Israel also boycott the recognition of other genocides and this is rather a maintenance of the thesis of Uniqueness of the Holocaust. But there is not to be denied that the pressures on Israel are just more than Armenian propaganda. The Israeli minister of education who created the whole conflict between Israel and Turkey over the attempt to include the Armenian genocide with the Holocaust in the curriculum of schools, and after the intense pressures from the Government of Turkey disgusted he closed the door and left his job. The Israeli accademic Yair Auron document this pressure and the fear of losing its first allie in the region in his book. Just speaking of pressure, just recently Turkey recalled its ambassador in Canada after the prime minister said that he stend by the bill. Now, you have yet to compare those threats and documented intimidations with the little advantages the Armenians coulds have in an elections. Besides the new bill in France making the denial illegal is not supported by every Armenians, I for oppose to any bills restricting freedom of position. I don't see how such a bill would benefit a party in any way when passing it has more negative repercussions for the government in places than opposing it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fadix (talk • contribs) 15:53, 11 May 2006.

Your reasoning is absurd, the large majority of Turks living in countries like Germany tend to be poorly educated blue collar workers, and a large portion within this minority are ethnic Kurds who tend to hold hostile views on Turkey. Your memory span also seems to be short term, less than 20 years ago your trigger happy compatriots were going around murdering diplomats and blowing up public places to make a point. Stanford Shaw, a well respected professor of history had to cancel his lectures in LA regarding the role of Turkey during WW2 because of bomb threats by Armenian fanatics. The Armenians have adopted a very arrogant style in dealing with this topic which has done nothing other than keeping it in a deadlock situation. Turks which have suffered immesureably in the hands of Armenians will never recognize a lie that is being imposed on them! 81.62.133.82 17:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The last sentence in your paragraph says it all. Turks suffered in hands of Armenians?:)) That's just silly. There is a saying in Russian that the best defence is offence. Thus, the best strategy to defend yourselves is to attack. That's what Turkey along with its' "patriots" does, when it hears any Genocide claims. Furthermore, I believe they placed a memorial in Turkey for "50-60 thousand" turks that died "in hands of Armenians" in 1915.

As for France and Canada recognizing the Armenian Genocide, it is known that Turkey broke a miltibillion military contract with France just b/c France accepted the Genocide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.72.211.36 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 13 May 2006.

So lets analyze your reasoning which goes something like this : Since I am defending the Turkish view of the events, I must be on the payroll of the Turkish government just like the historians who side with the Turkish view. In fact I probably receive monthly encrypted government guidelines on how to confront you guys, what arguements to use etc. And its impossible that I might have formed my own opinion on this subject matter after investigating both sides of the allegations because, surely, someone who sides with the Turkish view must either lack enough intelligence to form a balanced opinion, is a hard core nationlist grey wolf groupie or has been recruited and brainwashed by the Turkish secret service. I mean how would someone in their right mind oppose the views of a sacred people who see themselves as divine? After all, theirs is the most ancient of civilizations, the birthplace of christianity and even maybe culture itself! I mean how dare we argue with the chosen ones? Especially considering that we are siding with the clearly inferior moslem barbarians ummm sorry, I meant Turks! Tsk tsk! 85.0.33.235 17:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you just leave this place. Your statement "Turks suffered in hands of Armenians?:))" shows just how uninformed you are on the subject. Do you just have fun getting in disputes? I don't think any Misplaced Pages article needs such ignorant people.

Most of what is said above is just speculation (e.g., Hastert getting paid for exclusion, phone calls, etc) some of which might well be true or reasonable but cannot be proved: Proving means officials making official statements, not third parties making allegations. Again, only Secretary of State or authorized Department of State spokeperson can officially comment on the US foreign policy, the rest will be making just speculations. Don't get me wrong. I'm not claming that these speculations are all unreasonable. However they cannot be included. If we open this door then the other side should be allowed to comment on why France and others are passing legislation bills.

You are right there is also a significant ethnic-Turkish population in Europe. But they are not as much obsessed with this issue as Armenian diaspora and they put very little effort if any. This issue does not rank high in the lives of Turks in Europe whereas for most Armenians this issue is a part of their identity (I heard this description from many Armenian scholars, correct me If I'm wrong). Therefore Armenian diaspora have a much stronger determination on this issue and they have a louder voice in France than the Turks living there.

Yes, Turkey temporarily recalled its ambassadors and threatens (though not officially yet) to cancel government contracts. But this does not have immediate effect on Canada's or France's domestic politics and these cheap politicians care only about the domestic politics, i.e., getting relelected in the short term, as opposed to the long term interests of France and Canada. So, these cheap politicians don't care as much about what Turkey does as the voice of Armenian diaspora. Deepblue06 17:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Art Part

First time I learned about the Armenian Genocide was when I read 'Bluebeard' by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. As he is one of the best-known authors in the world I positively think a reference to that book should be included in the 'Art' part of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.111.236.148 (talk • contribs) 08:27, 12 May 2006.

unbeliviabely vandalised and biased page

I have read all the discussion pages and saw that the there is enough evidence to show that this "genocide" is "at least" exagerated. But the final version shows it as a fact and shows the opposing views as unimportant propaganda. actually it will not be fair to say that the opposing view is there at all. if you read the previous discussion pages you will see that there are several people who are there for 2 years. despite the fact that many of their claims and resources are shown to be false by another contributer they always come up with a simmilar page. this is obviously an unethical act showing that these people are here only for the sake of propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurobio (talk • contribs) 23:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

There can be no discussion on a fact. A fact of is a Fact. The fact that the Genocide happenned cannot be disputed. There can be questions about the reasons and the number of deaths, but not the actual fact of Genocide. Did you, by any chance, use deductive reasoning to come up with your "conclusion" that the fact of "genocide is at least exagurated"? It seems like you have... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.72.211.36 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 13 May 2006.

Sorry but really, who do you think you are? Have you travelled back through time and seen the Genocide happening? Your overconfident speech is as though you have. Turkey has very strong evidences regarding the fact that it was NOT a genocide yet you can claim that it is an inarguable fact. I am sure that you didn't even bother looking through the evidences of Turkey, though. Since you seem to be fond of the "the genocide is a fact" statement.

Its a matter of fact that the individuals of that tragic period in history who accuse the Ottoman Turkish government of giving explicit orders to exterminate the Armenians are liars of the most vile kind. Most of the so called evidence comes from individuals who lacked integrity and frequently were racist. These included the so called missionaries well scattered in the Eastern parts of Anatolia and who totally disregarded human life except those of the christian faith. Others were shown to be gamblers, thugs, criminals, drunkards. This topic is a disgusting attack on Turkishness. It is high time to bring the real truth out into the open. The one about how the Armenians betrayed the Ottomans especially considering that the Armenians enjoyed a highly privilaged status as a community in the empire. It is clear in my mind that this site is racially motivated! 85.0.33.235 17:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear friends now and before I have chosen my words very carefully not to offend anyone. It is a fact that many people have died. As a human being we should really respect their memories. However when it comes to naming the issue as "Genocide" that is a matter of dispute. Genocide is regarded as the highest crime and is decribed by international law. it has many components but most important is the intention to eradicate a human population just only because of their ethnic identitiy. when i read all the resorces and discussions that i could, i see that this deportaion is partial and done because of the armenian uprising and their support to an enemy army(whic is not presented in the article). We may say that the action taken is too much, unfair and monstorious and caused an immense human loss. Still It is not enought to name the issiue as a genocide.

this is alread well documented in the previous discussion pages. Yet this view is not present in the article. And very same people who are dominising this page came up with a single point of view. This is I guess a kind of Vandalisation.

I want to repeat that genocide is the ultimate crime and has its consequences. its shame will pass upon generations. We should think very carefully before putting that burden on a country and its people. this "genocide" nomenclature is wrong despite it has been used for years. (neurobio)

Photos

The images included in the article are questionable. One needs to prove that these pictures do indeed belong to people of Armenian origin who are massacred (or the target of genocide) in the Ottoman Empire during the disputed time period. Otherwise listing them as "Armenian Genocide" photos is not credible. Deepblue06 04:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Please feel free to upload the Armin Wegner photos, which are very well documented, if it makes you feel better, and we can discuss which of those to include. --RaffiKojian 05:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

In principle, I don't oppose including photos, you cannot label them as genocide photos. One needs to prove that these pictures do indeed belong to people of Armenian origin who are massacred (or the target of genocide) in the Ottoman Empire during the disputed time period.

Opposition: Western Scholars

Deepblue06 edit that needs to be disussed before incorporating anything into the main article:

Almost all Turkish intellectuals, scientists and historians accept that many Armenians died during the conflict, but they do not necessarily classify these events as genocide. Many renowned western historians like Bernard Lewis (Princeton University), Heath Lowry (Princeton University), Justin McCarthy (University of Louisville), J.C. Hurewitz (Columbia University), Guenter Lewy (University of Massachusetts), Halil Inalcik (member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences), Gilles Veinstein (College de France), and Rhoads Murphey (University of Birmingham) also consider these events as unsettled history. They point that the weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. They acknowledge that the resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense, but much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike.

Hi Deepblue06. This article, if you look through the history, has been developed with massive amounts of careful (and often heated) debate. This edit of yours is a big change in the article, which you need to discuss before making edits. You also need to discuss before removing materials (about the Canadian PM for example), and can also go back to the archives and see great deals of conversation about photos. --RaffiKojian 05:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

With regard to the speech of Canadian PM, I'm not opposed to adding it, but I don't see any value of doing it. Canada is already included in the list of countries who has Armenian genocide legistlations. It's just redundant to repeat the speech of the Canadian PM. Deepblue06

Obviously someone didn't find it redundant to add specifics, especially when it led to the temporary recall of the Turkish Ambassador. Now I am not saying it must stay, or shouldn't stay - I am saying however that your removal of the material without discussion is not cool. --RaffiKojian 07:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

By the same token, adding it without discussion was not cool either :). Again, I don't oppose adding it. But seriously, I don't think it adds any value. Deepblue06 15:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

But mainly, I want to emphasize that you should probably discuss any changes here, before touching the article. In specific response to this text above - I would like to raise some serious issues I have with it, before others jump in and comment. "Many renown hsitorians like"... is misleading in that 1) you have listed every single one that could be considered "renown" - so there are no others, the list does not go on like you imply 2) most of those names are not at all renown, and Heath Lowry for example, is completely disgraced 3) You include a Turk (who I've never heard of), who for this discussion, as far as I can tell, cannot be considered "western" no matter where they are locate, since I believe Armenians are excluded on the same basis (on this issue, I could be mistaken). So on this point, all you have left after taking my points into consideration is simply, "There are two prominent western historians who consider these events unsettled history, Bernard Lewis (Princeton University) and Justin McCarthy (University of Louisville)." The rest of the text, which does not do a bad job of summarizing their position (ludicrous as I find it) belongs squarely in the genocide denial section. McCarthy's oft-quoted statistic that 2.5 million muslims died during the same time is just ridiculous, since it includes Kurds who died of natural causes, Turks who died fighting Australians in Gallipoli, and Arabs who died for god knows what reason anywhere in the empire - while the Armenian population of Anatolia dropped virtually 100% due to actions directly ordered by the central government. McCarthys links to the Turkish government also go pretty deep. So I will wait to see what the others say, but at this point, your edit cannot stand as is. --RaffiKojian 05:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

These edits were already discussed and nobody contested it in principle (See Archieve 9 Point 33). I'm just stating the facts. These are the historians who have different views and here are their views. To remind you the title of the section is Opposition. The opposition section should include the views of historians who hold differen views. What's the purpose of the opposition section otherwise?

The listed scholars are not the only scholars who considers this part of the history unsettled. There are many others: 69 renowned historians issued a declaration pointing what I included in the article (You can look at May 19 1985 issue of New York Times or Washington Post for the list, I'll be happy to provide the whole list, if needed). I consider a chaired history professor serving at universities like Princeton and Columbia as "renowned" historian. But I'm not obsessed about this adjective, you can drop it, if that's a deal breaker.

The Turkish historian, Halil Inalcik, included in the list is one of the most well known Ottoman historians. He had a chair at University of Chicago before retirement. He's still the member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, which is quite prestigous (there are very few historians who accomplish this achievement in their lifetime). With regard to Heath Lowry, nobody ever questioned his academic findings, or scholarship. He was targeted by the Armenian lobby due to accepting funding from Turkish government. Again, nobody ever disproved or discredited his research. Deepblue06 06:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have a big problem with the word renown, please look it up. I also have the list of historians who support the Turkish thesis with corresponding information on what money they have recieved from the Turkish government (not that this rules them out from being honest, but it does open questions). That, actually, was not the problem with Heath Lowry - if you care to follow the link and read the articles. He became infamous for drafting a genocide-denial letter for the Turkish Ambassador, and in his exchange it is seems clear to me that neither he nor the Turkish ambassador doubt that genocide took place (so perhaps we should put in the the category of accepting the genocide?).

I read your articles: Prof Lowry and Turkish Ambassador clearly don't accept genocide claims. Prof Lowry was targetted by the Armenian lobby because he helped Turkish ambassador draft a letter. However, nobody ever disproved his research or scholarship.

Let's stick to the main question. Does Heath Lowry have a different view? YES. Is there anything included in the article that's not factually correct? NO. Is it relevant for the OPPOSITION section of the article? YES. Now, feel free to include another section to discuss the motives of these scholars if you like. But then the motives of the scholars who accept the claims needs to be discussed as well and we'll do that. For example, Taner Akcam listed in the academic recognition, who does not have sufficient credentials in history (the guy has a sociology PhD from a German university) and who's employed by the help of Armenian lobby as a 'visiting' professor at University of Minnesota. May be, one also needs to talk about his troubled past with Turkey even before he got interested in these issues. But I believe these things should not have a place in an encyclopaedia. Let's just state the facts and don't speculate for both sides. I dropped the word 'renowned' from the article. Well, actually it's funny, how well-known Princeton, Columbia, College de France professors don't deserve the adjective if they don't accept genocide claims, but I don't think there is any point fighting this war, so I drop the adjective renowned.

I'm getting the impression that you cannot stand opposing ideas even in the OPPOSITION section of the article. You seem insecure about listing the names of scholars and their view in the Opposition Section of the article. Deepblue06 14:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The authors of the article about this matter in the prestigious Holocaust and Genocide Studies by well respected genocide historians, in addition to the article in the Chronicle of Higher Education, NY Times, etc all show what was going on behind the scenes. As for putting a Turkish historian on a list of "Western Scholars", I have no problem with it if Dadrian, Hovanissian, Balakian and others Armenians are treated the same. I am obviously not the only one with issues with your edit - so again, even if it has been discussed in the past, it needs to be discussed again. --RaffiKojian 07:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's stick to the facts and the main question. This's an encyclopaedia. This is the opposition section of the article. One needs to list the opposing scholars and their view, as simple as that. Here are the scholars that have different views and here's their views, just facts, no speculation. These scholars say the following (word-by-word): "The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy, which has gone on in Lebanon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense. But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike. " Source: New York Times May 19, 1985.

Feel free to add any ethnic-Armenian scholar in the Academic recognition section, I've no problem with that (by the way Balakian is not a historian, he's an English professor). Again, this is not the western scholar's section, it's the opposition section. If this list would include Armenian scholars then it needs to be moved to the Academic recognition section. Deepblue06 14:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

uhhh, we could also add Standford Shaw on the list and last time I checked, he was a western scholar. As for the rest of your text Mr. Kojian, the fact of the matter remains that there is no concrete evidence written or otherwise that the Ottoman goverment of the time gave explicit or even implicit instructions to exterminate the community of Armenians for racial reasons. Until a time comes where there is substantiative proof that such instructions were given, it is totally misleading to coin the term genocide to the tragic events that unfolded in 1915-16. And it doesnt matter if there were a zillion eyewitnesses who funny enough all turn up to be christians, the most famous of which was Lepsius the racist protestant who was obsessed with preserving the "good image" of Germany. 83.78.110.210 06:02, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

No evidence? Oh brother. Have you read the article? Believe me, every Armenian in Anatolia did not commit suicide to make Muslims look bad, and Germany look good. I'm glad you admit though that you don't care if there were a zillion eyewitnesses, since you know better than the people who saw it with their own eyes. --RaffiKojian 07:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont think you get my point which is that your sources of the period in question may very well have been biased maybe? You have to get rid of the typical mindset of : if it supports the genocide thesis, it must be an objective, unbiased source! If not, it has to be someone that is in the Turkish goverment payrolls! This approach of yours and most of those that support the genocide thesis is far from being constructive and is one of the reasons that this issue is not being addressed properly! 83.78.110.210 08:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Addressed properly? Go ahead and address this. Did the population of Armenians in Anatolia drop from around 2 million to around zero during WWI and the establishment of the Republic of Turkey? And did that drop in population take place due directly to actions of Ottoman/Turkish authorities? Yes or no. No maybes, no yes but, no nothing else. There is no justification for genocide, and we don't even need Christian eyewitnesses to tell us that the Armenians are gone - while the Turks and Kurds were fruitful and multiplied. --RaffiKojian 09:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all your figure on the number of Armenians in Anatolia is grossly exagerated, Ottoman census figures before the war put the total at below 1 million in the eastern provinces. Even the Armenian patriarchate put the figure slightly above a million so I dont know where you dug that ridiculous sum from (could be your mind playing tricks which happens when you are exposed to too much propaganda)! As for the numbers dropping close to zero, if its the eastern provinces you are referring to, its what seems to have happened as a result of relocation. Have you even bothered to read through the information provided from the Ottoman archives in the links under the section on those that oppose the genocide thesis? If not, it would very well explain your flawed opinion on this subject! 83.78.110.210 10:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

In theory the edit is not so bad. But the problem is that it only gives credance to those that say the events aren't "settled". There needs to be an equal amount of discussion on those that say these things did happen, at the very least. And, to be honest, the edit just throws names around - there's nothing in the articles to say that they have a particular position. John Smith's 12:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Hellooo, this is the OPPOSITION section of the article. You can include the names of 'scholars' accepting it in the academic recognition section, I've no problem with that. These scholars exactly say the following in their declaration (word-by-word) "The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy, which has gone on in Lebanon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense. But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike. " Source: New York Times May 19, 1985. Deepblue06

And why should there be an opposition (or support) section ? It seems to me that the whole "who says it was/wasn't genocide" section is dubious. In any case, the people named are generally not experts on the subject, which rather misses the point of WP:RS. That would make the section a fallacious appeal to authority. Without trying too hard, like looking up a relevant publication database, the LoC catalogue tells me that Lewis and Lowry's opinions are no more relevant than any randomly selected academic, that McCarthy's views are relevant, and that Hurewitz, Lewy and Shaw's are again not. One in six, which I have to say is rather better than I expected before I checked. The attempts by Deepblue06 (talk · contribs) — no connection to -Inanna- (talk · contribs) of course, but if your good faith was exhausted you might like to visit WP:RFCU — to "fix" things did not help. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm not going to discuss how ridiculous your statement is about the scholarship of these distinguished historians. But that's not the point. This's an encyclopaedia. This is the opposition section of the article. I did not add the opposition section to the article, it was already there. In this section, one needs to list the opposing scholars and their view, as simple as that. Here are the scholars that have different views and here's their views, just facts, no speculation. Deepblue06 14:44, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the edit by Angus works quite nicely and ensures that these points can be kept in. But they need to be moved around, because they are in the Turkey sub-category. How are the comments of non-Turkish commentators relevant to this section? They should be moved, I think, so I'll try and put them where they should be. John Smith's 16:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

They are sharing Turkey's point of view, that is, this is unsettled history and we cannot conclude genocide took place until historians prove it. So, I don't see any problem including their view in the subsection for Turkey's position. Deepblue06 17:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a copy of a letter that has been sent to US house of representatives. 192 Historiansare objecting to the term "genocide". In the text it is clearly stated that muslim loss is significant and as important!!! Still the article refers this immense opposing view as an unimportant fraction. So you say these historians from univercities all around US are not experts. And their objection is not worth mentioning. if the letter from Genocide scolars is there in the original text section this should be there too.(neurobio)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurobio (talk • contribs) 23:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you count the numbers of persons that signed it and how many are indeed historians? It is 69 persons not 192 and many aren't even historian, you are mistaking the number with the 192 petition who says that the genocide is undisputed. Also, Israel Charny investigated this petition and reported that from this numbers many recognized the genocide and that they were misled. Right now I have not much time, after Wednesday I plan to contribute to this article and finally finishing creating the 'Armenian Genocide revisionism' article. Fad (ix) 17:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are 69 signatories, most of them (almost all) are professors of history at respected universities. This is a public declaration of these distinguished scholars. If you want to remove anybody from the list (because you speculate that he/she was mislead), you can do it only if you can provide a public declaration of these individuals denying their earlier declaration. Deepblue06 17:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

THIS ARTICLE IS TRULY SUBJECTIVE

This article is very subjective reagdless, if youre a Turk ,Armenian or whatever, so instead of having a continuous editing war upon this article at least these two tags should be certainly added to this article; Template:Totallydisputed

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I will certainly add these tags to this article if someone else doesn't. NO ONE has the RIGHT to impose unverified, so called historic data on anyone, get over it. Argue all you whish, without proper evidence your'e going around in circles.

What is the entire purpose of "References" section for if this article is you claim that it is unverified? It is verified and I really don't see why you seem to call it that. That section has been meticulously reviewed many times over and that information has been verified. And please, leave a signature by writing two dashes followed by four tildes so we can at least know whose talking here. --MarshallBagramyan 16:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

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