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Minor terminology edits

There have been edits of terminology again that may be confusing the meaning of the article:

1. East European Jews → Jews from Eastern Europe
2. East European Jews → Jews in Eastern Europe
3. German Jews → Jews in Germany
4. European → Ashkenazi

Some of the first case appear correct, in that they seem to refer to people in America.

The second and third cases, in context from the Holocaust section:

During the World War II period, the American Jewish community was bitterly and deeply divided and was unable to form a common front. Most Jews in Eastern Europe favored Zionism, which saw a return to their historical homeland as the only solution; this had the effect of diverting attention from the horrors in Nazi Germany. Jews in Germany were alarmed at the Nazis but were disdainful of Zionism. Proponents of a Jewish state and Jewish army agitated, but many leaders were so fearful of an antisemitic backlash inside the U.S. that they demanded that all Jews keep a low public profile. One important development was the sudden conversion of most (but not all) Jewish leaders to Zionism late in the war. The Holocaust was largely ignored by American media as it was happening.

Given the lead sentence of the paragraph, and the article's subject, I believe the paragraph in its entirety, is meant to discuss the views of Jews in America. The original language for the second case was "Eastern Europeans" and, for the third case, "German Jews". The second case was edited some time ago to "Jews in Eastern Europe", which I believe was incorrect, and should have been "Jews from Eastern Europe". This change in meaning prompted another user to recently edit "German Jews" to "Jews in Germany" instead of "Jews from Germany".

The fourth case, in context:

Yiddish was once spoken as the primary language by most of the several million Ashkenazi Jews who immigrated to the United States.

"European" was changed to "Ashkenazi" here. I don't think it's correct to change the meaning of the sentence to include only Ashkenazim – some other European Jews spoke Yiddish as well, no?

As has happened before (with an IP editor), these creeping small changes can have the effect of disrupting the coherence and accuracy of an article. —— 10:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Now I see what you mean. I will revert my changes.Evildoer187 (talk) 00:51, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Related ethnic groups

I have added Lebanese, Jordanian, Syrian, and Palestinian people to the related ethnic groups category. They are all Semitic, rooted in the original peoples of the Levant, and are closely related genetically. All of this is factual, and I don't see why anyone would think that it doesn't belong. Discuss.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:58, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

That you don't see why someone else might object may not be enough to carry the day. We'll see. I find it good to remember that I don't get to decide how other folks see things. You might consider trying that too.Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 00:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Because it's a political edit that really doesn't fit here, unless you're trying to bring American Jews to the whole Israeli-Arab conflict and how they are actually all related and thus Israel shouldn't be hated by these groups etc etc. That's how it seems and it doesn't belong here. The majority of AJ don't share praticular related history or culture to the Middle Eastern groups you added, I mean no more than other to American groups, So I think it should be left with "Related groups: Other Jewish groups" and that's it. Yuvn86 (talk) 11:57, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Given our earlier discussions, not only do I disagree, but much of your argument seems to be predicated on personal opinion itself. Nevertheless, I'll stand back and wait for other opinions.Evildoer187 (talk) 18:19, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I think we should just do away with the related ethnic groups section. What's the point if all it says is "other Jewish ethnic divisions"?Evildoer187 (talk) 19:57, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

When we are speaking in to terms of related ethnic groups, this relationship is usually genetic. As we know AJ are genetically related to this people, therefore I support Evildoer187 position on this subject.--Tritomex (talk) 11:52, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

True or not, the opinion of the editor(s) is irrelevant. Especially because this has a "hot-button" political aspect, it needs reliable sources to be cited, which will probably be well-scrutinized. Right? —— 18:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

What kind of sources are you looking for? Genetic? Cultural? Historical?Evildoer187 (talk) 17:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

It should be something like the way such relationships are described in scholarly writing on the subject. I'm sure, in the relevant Wiki pages or their sources, something like a tree, showing various groups and how they're related, can be found.

However, that starts to drift outside the "general overview" nature of the article. Links to such information, with an accurate description of how American Jews are related to nearby members of the tree, would probably be best. Certainly, WP:RS, in this area in particular, need to "come with clean hands", be completely apolitical, and without an agenda. When talking about such things, you can expect Jews to be on high alert, since, throughout history, people attempting to categorize us haven't had the best of motives, so try to understand why people might have reservations about whatever you do. —— 17:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Jews and "ostensibly religious"

I reverted the change, because I think the editor is thinking of the term "religious" as "observant", which is a common usage. However, the way I read this section, it merely is stating that Jews' religion is Judaism. They may not be observant, and they may not even believe in G-d, but they are members of the Jewish faith. Judiasm is a religion and Jews are therefore a religious group (although not necessarily observant). Sposer (talk) 17:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Many Jews are secular, but still considered part of the Jewish people. Jews are an ethnic group, but Judaism is a religion.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

That was kind of my point (although I 100% the ethnic group thing since not all Jews are ethnically Jewish). But, I see you reverted anyway. There is lots of controversy on the ethnic group thing, since many Jews are ethnically Semitic, as are other groups. Plus, using the ethnicity definition brings up bad memories around WWII. Not arguing ethnicityhere (done it before and lost). But the point is as you said -- the verbiage that was there was assuming "religious" meant observant, which though it can, that is not really the meaning here. Sposer (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Hebrew language translation of "American Jews" in the info box

There appears to be a disagreement about the inclusion of the Hebrew language in the info box. I personally support it. There is an Arabic translation of "Arab Americans" on the Arab American page, despite most being English speakers. I don't see why the same shouldn't be done here.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I support it as well, which is why I reverted Malik's original removal of it. Most American Jews (especially religious ones) speak enough Hebrew or Yiddish for it to be considered a common second language among the group. What's the harm in it being in the article? —— 20:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

It would make more sense to have the title in Russian, because there are more Russian-speaking American Jews than Hebrew-speakers. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 21:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you have statistics for this?Evildoer187 (talk) 11:53, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Please look at the article and its sources. There are 223,000 Russian-speaking Jews in the New York metropolitan area alone and 195,374 Hebrew-speakers across the US — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:38, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I know this is unacceptable since it is third hand, but to help frame the discussion only, I would say that with the exception of the most Orthodox and Israeli immigrants, virtually zero American Jews understand Hebrew. Many can read the sounds, but know very few words. In fact, my former Rabbi gave a sermon about how the former President of Haiti (Aristide) gave a speech to United Synagogue of Judaism leaders and spoke in Hebrew and NOT ONE OF THE LAY leaders could understand a word he said. As Malik said, there are likely far more Russian speakers than Hebrew speakers. And, even if the Orthodox can speak Hebrew, they converse in Yiddish. Only Israeli immigrants would speak Hebrew, but I assume there are more Russian than Israeli Jews here (I don't know for sure). Regarding the point about Arab speakers, that is more akin to saying that Israelis speak Hebrew, not Jews. Further, Arabs are far more first generation in this country than Jews are and so are more likely to speak Arabic. Arabic is also their national language. Hebrew is the national language for Israel only. Sposer (talk) 02:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Jews are defined as a nation who trace their roots to Israel, so it's safe to say that Hebrew is the national language of the Jews. By the way, very few French Americans know French, and yet they still have a French translation of their name. Frankly, I don't think this is a very good argument for excluding the language here.Evildoer187 (talk) 11:53, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Using that logic, then we should add Aramaic as well. There is no "national language" of Jews. Even in Israel, over history, Jews have spoken Hebrew, Italian, Greek, Aramaic, etc. Israel's national language is mainly Hebrew, but Israel does not represent a majority of the world's Jews. And just because there is a DNA relationship to some percentage of the Jewish population, does not make Hebrew relevant in any way, shape or form. Few Jews speak Hebrew. Period.Sposer (talk) 13:01, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Huh? Almost half of the world's Jews reside in Israel.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

More like a third, but so what? Zargulon (talk) 02:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Safe or not, Hebrew is not the "national language of the Jews". It is not even the sole official language of Israel. As for the French, see comment below, mutatis mutandis. Zargulon (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea why there is a Arabic translation of "Arab Americans", it sounds really stupid. But not as stupid as doing something stupid just because someone else is doing it. Zargulon (talk) 03:02, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Quite simply, it's the description of roughly half the world's Jewish population, as written in the language of at least half the world's Jewish population. What's wrong with it being in the article? —— 21:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Why would either of those things be relevant, even if they were true (which they aren't)? This is English Misplaced Pages. Zargulon (talk) 23:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Why would we be showing the reader what the term "American" looks like expressed in Hebrew letters in this article? I fail to see what doing so would have to do with this article. This is a transliteration of "American". It is not a translation. Bus stop (talk) 04:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Religion Box

You are not Jewish if you are a Christian or a Moslem or any other religion. These religions conflict with Judaism. The only argument for including other religions is by viewing Jews ONLY from an ethnic perspective, which, putting it kindly, is pure garbage. Any person born Jewish, who practices Christianity, is not a Jew (except according to a Rabbi). If you are born Christian, and convert to Judaism, you are not Christian, you are Jewish and you are an American Jew (if you are an American). You are not excluded from being a Jew, because you are not ethnically Jewish. Arabs are more ethnically Jewish than most Jews are, since most Jews are as European as they are Semitic. Jews practice one religion. Judaism. Sposer (talk) 16:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I just want to make it clear that I understand the distinction between the idea of the Jewish ethnicity and Judaism. However, outside of in Nazi Germany, where the Germans considered non-Jews as Jews because a grandparent was born a Jew regardless of what you practiced, in general, identification as a Jew is based on the religion you follow, or at least relate to. So, if you do not believe in G-d, but are born Jewish, you are a Jew. But, if you decide that you believe in Islam, Buddhism or Christianity, you may be ethnically a Jew, but you are really not identifying as Jewish, nor would anybody else. Likewise, you could have been born an Asian Buddhist, but if you become an American citizen and convert to Judaism, you are an American Jew, regardless of your ethnicity. For that reason, the one overarching similarity of Jews is that they are observant or non-observant members of Judaism, regardless of their ethnicity. For this reason, it make no sense to include other religions (or non-religious belief systems) in the religion section of the info box). If anything, the bigger issue is people that consider themselves religiously Jewish, but are not considered Jewish by all flavors of Judaism (i.e., Reform Jews whose father is Jewish only, and who identify as Jews).Sposer (talk) 17:12, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree and that's the reason I removed this edit by Evildoer187. However there's no reason to bring Nazi Germany as an example... it's insulting to many people. Also Semitic is a language group, not genetics.Yuvn86 (talk) 17:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

As a Jew who lost family to the Nazis, I abhor the whole ethnic Jew thing, especially since you do not need to be ethnically a Jew to be a Jew. That is why I made that comment. It is usually anti-Semites that insist on the ethnic definition. That is what I am generally railing against. I certainy dd not want to insult anybody. I am no expert on the origin of Semite, but the Wiki article states that although the definition originally was linguistic, it is now also considered ethnic. Then again, Wiki is far from perfect! :-) Sposer (talk) 18:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sposer's example was completely appropriate. I don't see how it could possibly be insulting to anyone who wasn't trying very hard to be insulted. I'm not sure it's factually correct though - the Israeli law of return is (last time I checked) also based on having one Jewish grandparent. However I basically agree that it is silly to say that Jewish Americans e.g. practise Christianity. There may be some people who practise other religions who self-identify as Jews, and that should be taken seriously. But that category of people is not significant enough for a place in the infobox. Zargulon (talk) 01:49, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Thankd Zargulon. Converted Jews can also enter Israel (although I do not think Reform Conversions are accepted and the issue of Conservative/Masorti I think has gone back and forth a few times, but not sure on that).Sposer (talk) 01:53, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is about ethnic Jews, and a good portion of the people in the infobox are secular/atheist. Heinrich Heine and several others converted to Christianity, but they are still recognized by Misplaced Pages as Jews. You may personally believe that it's just a religion, but Misplaced Pages recognizes that it is also a distinct ethnic group.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is about Jews, and Judaism is the religion of the Jews. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:40, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

But not the only religion. You can still be a Jew in the ethnic sense and follow other religions.Evildoer187 (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

That is an utter falsehood. If you follow Halachic rules, and Orthodox Rabbi will say that it makes no difference what you say you are, you are a Jew. If you follow a more liberal version of Judaism, it still is either/or, but if you consider yourself Christian, you are a Christian and you are not a Jew. And, as far as atheism or agnosticism, that is not a religion. And, while some may follow Buddhist precepts, they follow the philosophy and precepts, but if they consider themselves full fleged Buddhists, they cannot have the same belief system and would no longer be Jewish in any religious sense.

Basically, being ethnically Jewish is neither a necessary nor a sole requirement to be an American Jew. You can be an American Jew without be ethnically Jewish. And you cannot be an American Jew if you practice another religion, even if you are ethnically Jewish.Sposer (talk) 17:54, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

That's great, but this page is about ethnic Jews, not the religion.Evildoer187 (talk) 16:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

It would be misleading to add Islam and Christianity to the Infobox as we see taking place in this edit. One reason would be that Judaism does not endorse Islam or Christianity. Furthermore there is a long list of religions of the world. Some Jews may explore/immerse themselves in other religions of the world. I hardly think we would list all of the other religions of the world in the Infobox for American Jews. Bus stop (talk) 17:08, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Then we should remove every secular Jew on this page, of which there are several. Jews are an ethnic group, and Judaism is a religion. This article is about the former.Evildoer187 (talk) 16:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

UNINDENTING: That makes no sense. First of all, nowhere does it say that the article is just about "ethnic" Jews. The lede defines an American Jew as a member of the Jewish (Judaism) faith or somebody that is ethnically a Jew. This is too broad in my opinion, but is what other editors have agreed upon. And, that covers everybody in the info box. There is absolutely nothing in here that says that if you consider yourself agnostic that you are not a Jew. Likewise, if you follow Eastern Philosophy, you can still follow the Jewish religion. There seems to be very little about Buddhism, if you are not praying to idols or other humans, that is unacceptable to Judaism from what I read of the Buddhism article. Being a secular Jew does not mean you are not a Jew. The only people that I would not consider to be valid would be those that activity adhere to another faith. Buddhism in that sense does not qualify, and secular/agnostic/atheist does not either. They are not faiths. I would not include, for example, Madeline Albright. Although born Jewish, she did not know she was and considers hereself a Christian. Similarly, Bobby Fisher does not belong either as by the end of his life, he was outright antagonistic to Jews and Judaism.Einstein was not religious, but he considered himself a Jew by all biographies that I've seen. Bob Dylan left and came back. bottom line is that the pictures are 100% aligned with the article content.Sposer (talk) 17:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say is that Misplaced Pages does not factor in Halakhic or any other religious laws when considering who counts as a Jewish American. If you are Jewish by descent, you are a Jew. If either your father, or mother, or both were Jewish, then you are a Jew. If you converted to Judaism, you are a Jew. Likewise, if you are an ethnic Jew who adopted another religion, you are still a Jew because that is still your ethnicity. You are right that it isn't just about ethnic Jews, but you appear to be looking at the article from a purely religious perspective. There's much more to it than that, and that's why Heinrich Heine and other converts to Christianity are nevertheless categorized as Jews on here.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point, but that argument does not fly. By that logic, there are probably about a billion Jews in the world, although they do not know it. Is Madeline Albright a Jew? She was born a Jew and was hidden and 100% does not consider herself a Jew, nor does anybody else. Ethnicity does not trump belief of the person when they are actively non-Jewish. So, for things like Islam and Christianity, you cannot be both. For Buddhism, that is a philosophy and I could keep Kosher, and the Sabbath and be a Buddhist based on a belief system, but my religion would not be Buddhism. The consensus on the page, and I am sure if you asked the public, would not consider converts to Christianity Jews. Half of Spain would be Jewish otherwise.Sposer (talk) 19:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Sposer, the Jews around the world who might not know they are Jewish are not relevant in this discussion. This article is about American Jews. While many American Jews religiously identify with Judaism - perhaps even most of them, not all of them do. In fact, a significant amount of American people who identify as Jewish consider themselves either Atheist or Agnostic. Including plenty of notable American Jews, so it would be relevant to add. At least Atheism and Agnosticism, because the amount of American Jews who identify as such is significant. Lullaby69 (talk) 04:36, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Religious laws shouldn't even factor into this discussion, because this is Misplaced Pages, not Talmudic study. There have been countless Jews throughout history who have converted to other religions, but are still recognized as Jews because it is an ethnicity and nationality.Evildoer187 (talk) 07:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

You keep missing the point. First of all, the box says religion. Not belief system of people that are racially Jewish. Second of all, I've repeated about 1,000 times, neither Atheism nor Agnosticism are religions. I have known Atheistic Jews who still would only marry a Jew, and be willing to be buried in a Jewish cemetery. Also, the article is on American Jews, not people who are ethnically Jewish (who are basically Middle Eastern anyway) that happen to live in America. Religion is absolutely a requirement for this article.Sposer (talk) 11:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there are many American Jews who convert to Christianity or Islam to begin with. Second, Evildoer, there are no "facts" in this: your opinion may be that an American Jew who converts to Christianity is still Jewish - the majority of American Jews will probably think otherwise, that he is not Jewish anymore. Just because the same convert may have an ancient Israelite chromosome doesn't make him anything, it's just your opinion. Yuvn86 (talk) 11:36, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

You don't think? What was it you just said about inserting personal opinions? I am also fairly certain that you have no idea what the majority of American Jews would think. Not that it matters in this context, especially without RS.

As for "facts": The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים ISO 259-3 Yehudim Israeli pronunciation ), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and an ethnoreligious group, originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.

That is how Misplaced Pages defines the Jewish people, so it is natural that we extend it to all of its sub-groups as well. Until WP limits the scope of the definition to religious ones, then we should treat it as an ethnic group.Evildoer187 (talk) 13:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

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