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why the Australian study is reliable.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JHP-4XMTJX4-1&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1440450800&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e96f699ccdba9ac59616162d945156ca Investigation of population structure in the Victorian Italian and Greek population using Y chromosome STR haplotype analysis Department of Genetics, Thank you Southernaussie (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC).

I do not have access to this text (unless you can get me a copy) but honestly, the title says it is about Greeks and Italians in Melbourne. It does sound like an article claiming to present a new theory about the very ancient origins of E1b1b. Does it really present a new theory about the origins of E1b1b or does it just say something in passing referring to work done by others? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Hitler was from E1b1b?

Check this out: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1305414/Hitler-descended-Jews-Africans-DNA-tests-reveal.html

It is quite interesting. However, more reliable source would be needed. Miraceti (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Another one: Stonemason89 (talk) 03:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

It is kind of interesting, but also kind of a side issue for the subject, and additionally it is currently very hard to know how to source in a way which will satisfy. A lot of famous people were E1b1b. Previous debate about mentioning famous people, which you can find in the archives, led to the situation of today which is none of them being mentioned. I do not think it should go in the article itself? It would certainly raise a lot of issues if we did.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:20, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

It is a news Item, but I haven't seen whether there is an actual scientific article published. Wapondaponda (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I think indeed that it the reliability of the claims can't really be said to be high in the first place. My above comments are assuming that they are found to be reliably published. I know people are interested in this kind of thing, although I must say this interest is often a bit weird and even creepy. I have seen internet forums urging that it is really important to find out what Y haplogroup Hitler was. I don't think his Y haplogroup will tell us anything about him or his haplogroup apart from that they intersect.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Most haplogroups articles include a section "Famous members" (see haplogroup T with Jefferson, Haplogroup C with Gengis Khan, Haplogroup G with Statlin for exemple and so on). So either you remove the section from all articles .... but no reason to remove the section from e1b1b just because Hitler is included... Moreover this analysis was commented by Ronny Decorte, a renown geneticists, head of the Laboratory for Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, lecturer in Forensic Genetics at the K.U.Leuven and member of the National Commission on Forensic DNA analysis in Belgium. So this is for sure much more reliable than the sections related to Gengis Khan, Stalin or Jefferson haplogroups ...90.36.146.39 (talk) 17:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I've been in this kind of argument before, and I think I'll stay out of it. I'll just point out that the famous people section idea has been controversial and many such sections have been deleted. I do have some sympathy with both sides of the argument. What I would ask is that whatever you post you source it as well as you can, and you write it as neutrally as you can. You will get controversy.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and thanks for posting here on the talk page. That also helps. I would also suggest that you'll be taken more seriously by some Wikipedians if you register yourself as an editor rather than posting anonymously.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so to avoid controversy, I have created a wikiquote page related to Eb1b that will list all sourced quotes related to famous members and many others. So it is maybe better to create a link to this page and to remove the section from the article if you prefer. A quote is neither right or wrong but just a quote ... so people are still free to disagree ... Moreover interesting quotes about Eb1b1 from different studies can also be listed other sections. Don't hesitate to add some as long as they are sourced.Antoine17 (talk) 19:06, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Interesting approach. Let's see how it goes. You might want to look through the archives here. There are a number of famous people likely to be E1b1b, but it is not easy to source most of them to WP standards. Thanks for your constructive approach!--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

deletion of Coffman-Levy quote

Amongst recent editing on this article I notice a slow edit war of deletions of the Coffman-Levy quote from JOGG. User:Jayjg has been deleting on the basis of WP:RS. Relevant to understanding Jayjg's position are some other discussions:-

• I have been discussing genetics sourcing on Jayjg's talk page: .
• Jayjg was involved in a discussion at RS/N about genetics sourcing .

It is as clear as I think it will ever be that by implying that JOGG citations can be deleted without even considering content is ignoring the RS/N consensus (and I would say also ignoring all normal WP policies concerning how to edit by consensus, as well as common sense). HOWEVER, a less tendentious argument Jayjg has offered is clearly needing consideration, and that is that JOGG material can indeed sometimes come under WP:REDFLAG, meaning that it is too controversial and technical and would need a more technical source. JOGG is not by default a strong technical source for genetics as such. In this particular case (as I have tried to discuss on Jayjg's talk page) there is however nothing technical or controversial as it was just a passage about word usage which maybe did not even need sourcing.

As a next step however, I have not resisted the deletion, but instead replaced the passage with a similar one with no special sourcing. My justification for doing this, which anyone who reads through the archives of this article will understand, is that the Coffman-Levy quote itself sounded more controversial and complicated than it really was, which led to many different debates over the history of this article about what the passage was trying to say, and in a way maybe that is what has led to Jayjg's deletion. So to avoid future problems it seems simpler to just simplify the text so that it just observes what needs to be observed.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty clear to me that the RS/N conclusion was the opposite of what you claim it is, that the "slow edit war" was imaginary, that my edits in no way violated any policies - but rather upheld them, and that the claim that my argument was "tendentious" is itself "tendentious". That said, I have no objection to the edit you made here. Jayjg 19:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes WP works in practice not in theory, I once saw someone say.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:09, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Please use the talk page here

There are edits being made by User:Southernaussie which really need discussion here on the article talk page. (I'd try already giving some comments, but actually it is not even always clear what these edits are trying to achieve.) They are messy, leaving things "broken" and a big part of the edits involves blanked inline comments. That is not the correct way to propose things. Please don't put comments into the real article. Use this talk page. That is what it is for. Looking forward to discussion.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Pereira et al. 2010

Pereira; et al. (2010). "Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel" (PDF). {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Explicit use of et al. in: |last= (help); line feed character in |title= at position 76 (help) This paper was published early this year, though only the abstract was available for free. There is a free copy online now. The study has some new stats, for E-M81, E3a and R1b among others. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Cheers--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Einstein, Hitler & Napoleon, all E1b1b

This seems notable enough to be mentioned that these three all belong to the, rather sparse for European, Y-haplogroup E1b1b. 66.243.215.2 (talk) 03:54, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Such things have been discussed many times. Check the archives. Some people are strongly against it, but most argument has been about the fact that it is difficult to find good publications to confirm these things. So theoretically speaking if a strong source can be found I see no reason not to have a "famous people" section. It has however been argued occasionally that DNA articles should not have sections about famous people because that is too scientific. What sourcing would you propose?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

ISOGG shows 2 subclades for E-M215 and NOT 4 as introduction implies

The substructure of EM215 in ISOGG currently shows 2 main bifurcating subclades and not 4 as implied in the introduction piece of this article. These 2 subclades are E-M35.1 and E-M281. E-M35.1 itself has 4 primary subclades that we know of as of now: E-Z827, E-V68, E-V92 and E-V6, of which the first two contain the vast majority of known E-M215 lineages, this is the current substructure, and is somewhat correctly explained in the main article, however the introduction is misleading to this fact, when trying to revert, WP editor: Andrew Lancaster would not allow. Another issue is the nitpicking of ethnic groups with high frequency of E1b1b and displaying them in the introduction section, this is simply arbitrary, as there are multitudes of Ethnic groups in the horn of Africa with high levels of E1b1b. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.60.165 (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for finally using the talk page, but please remember to sign your talk page posts. First to make the differences clear:

And now to summarize the edit summaries (which are a bad way to have a discussion):

• I wrote: old version of this was better. It explains the most common clades (irrespective of artificial ideas about which ones are on the same level) in terms that can be found in main sources
• You wrote: Disagree, if the mentioned substructure is 'artificial' then it should not even be mentioned in the main article below, either stick with Trombetta '11 or current ISOGG
• I wrote: Nothing in this disagrees with Trombetta! Here clades are broken up as per same authors to explain what is most comm in mod'n populations
• You wrote: Never said it disagreed with Trombetta, rather it disagrees with current ISOGG, which is the same as the substructure below
• I wrote: It does not disagree with ISOGG either. You clearly do not understand ISOGG? Please use talkpage and do not revert again
• You wrote: I do understand ISOGG, please see talk page

Thirdly, to address your points, in as far as I understand them from your comments so far:

• There is no fixed number of sub-clades within any version of this family tree. But I do agree that you can of course describe the number of sub-clades at each particular level, as long as you mention that this is just the current state of knowledge. In this we seem to agree. But please note that the number and relationship of sub-clades on each known level is discussed in many places in the article already. There is not much point having this paragraph if it is just going to name the clades at one specific level that are named elsewhere anyway.
• All the sub-clades on all the "levels" are really sub-clades of E-M215. They do not have to be immediately under E-M215 to be a sub-clade of E-M215. For example E-V13 is a sub-clade of E-M215. It is also a sub-clade of E-V68 and E-M78. This is how authors write about it. Still, if you think it causes confusion, you can propose a wording tweak to fix this specific problem. However this is not what you have done, and this problem is pretty clearly not your biggest concern.
• What you have done instead is made the paragraph meaningless, or at least removed all indication of its original meaning. Originally it was, as you say yourself, a quick description of the most highest frequency populations in the world, giving the names of geographic/ethnic groups, and the clades involved (at whichever "level" they happen to be in, for example V257 is not related to any simple geographic area or linguistic or ethnic group, while M293 clearly is.)
• Your new version of the paragraph is not about what is common at all anymore, although it still uses the word "common". It trus now very incorrectly implies that for example V6 is similarly common as V68. No point having a paragraph which only make a misleading remark like this?

My conclusion: I think what you really need to justify is your assertion that a paragraph in the intro about highest frequency areas is "nitpicking" and "simply arbitrary". That seems to be your real issue? But isn't it one of the most basic things anyone coming to this article will want to know before they start reading further? Isn't it indeed how a lot of published articles start out when they introduce discussion of a specific clade? Please comment on this.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Andrew, you should not simply assume which of the 2 separate issues is my biggest concern, as I have not given you any premise to undertake this assumption, in any event I will start with issue # 2, the arbitrary nitpicking and display of geographical and ethinic groups with high levels of E-M35.

First of all let's start with the horn of Africa, the Cruciani '04 article shows E-M215 being present in both the Amhara and Wolayta at equal levels with the Ethiopian Oromo, although it is true that higher levels were seen in the Borana oromo and Somalis, but why aren't the Wolayta and Amhara also stated if the Oromo, without any specification, are included, there are close to 100 Ethno-lingusitic groups in the horn of Africa, with E-M215/M35 SNP tests being carried out on only a handful of these groups, why then would the Oromos and Somalis be nitpicked? The fact that the lineage itself likely originates in this area is further reason that it would be widespread throughout the whole region, is it not?

Going on to Berbers, which type of Berbers? Siwa Berbers in Egypt have much less E-M215 than North West African Berbers for instance, again arbitrary. Why specify some and not specify others.

Next, let's go to Egyptians, again which Egyptians? Studies have shown different frequencies of E-M215 throughout Egypt, why no specifics and nitpicking on the Egyptians?

Next let's look at the Balkans, is E-M215 spread evenly throughout the Balkans, why aren't their populations pulled apart like those from Africa, surely, the frequency of E-M215 in Kosovar Albanians and Greeks is not at the same level as that of say Croatians is it?

So all the above is to say that the best way to relay this information is to display or link to the actual population samples that have been surveyed thus far (like it shows in the E-V68 Misplaced Pages page for instance) and/or may be even an interpolated or contour map of the frequency of E-M215 (like that shown in the Cruciani '04 publication) and just simply leave it at that, any other verbal description of what is 'common', mind you common is undefined here, is it 50%, 30% , 80%??, is unnecessary and simply will cause more confusion.

Now let me go to issue # 1, the issue which you wrongly thought was less important to me, lets revisit the sentence again: “E-M215 has at least four common subclades: E-V68, E-V257, E-M123, E-M293, the last of which spreads from Ethiopia to South Africa. “

Why am I insisting that current knowledge of E-M215's substructure should be unambiguously incorporated in the above sentence? Because the sentence makes little sense without incorporating the substructure, in-fact, I could re-write the above sentence as :

“E-M215 has at least four common subclades: E-M78, E-M81, E-M34, E-M293.....”

and be equally correct, so which subclade to choose? well the more downstream you go the more ambiguity is introduced, therefore, the correct and only choice is to start from as close to the root of the tree being described as possible, that is, as much as current knowledge can afford us.

One last thing with respect to the sentence “the last of which spreads from Ethiopia to South Africa”, although true, it makes it seem as if the others are not spread from Ethiopia to North Africa/Levant, which is the wrong impression, because we know that both E-V68 and E-M123 are spread from Ethiopia to NA/Levant as well, hence why I omitted it. 138.88.60.165 (talk) 19:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I have not simply assumed what your concerns are. I read your comments and edits, and did my best. Your latest post above seems to have almost nothing to do with any concerns you have raised previously, and so you should have come out with them way earlier. Let me go through them:

• Why specify the Borona, Oromo and Somalis? Because (a) they form one single ethno-linguistic group, in contrast to the many other groups in the Horn area who have been tested and because (b) they consistently turn out to have some of the highest frequency levels of all groups tested in that area, and this is frequently remarked upon. There is nothing illogical or arbitrary about this. Please also note that there have been more than one study of groups from that area. Short answer: the paragraph just follows the literature, and that is how Misplaced Pages works. My question to you: if this was your concern, why not just tweak the words to say "and other groups from the Horn of Africa"?
• Berbers. Again, the reasoning is simple: while there might be Berbers with lower and higher frequencies, Berbers have a whole are frequently reported as having one of the highest levels of E-M215 in any ethno-linguistic or geographic grouping. There is nothing arbitrary or wrong about remarking this. It is quite a simple, correct and logical description, and it follows what published experts say.
• Egyptians. Same again: whatever details will be discussed later in the article, there is nothing arbitrary about saying Egypt as a whole is one of the places in the world with one of the highest overall numbers of E-M215 men, either compared to the population as a whole, or just counted up.
• Is the paragraph derived from a contour map? No. Look at the size of the bibliography of the article. Regional distributions are discussed in the body of this article and its daughter articles. This is just the lead.
• Is it confusing what "common" means? Well, you left the word in, so I presume this was not your original concern, but the answer is no. In the areas named, E-M215 is common in every possible sense, when compared to other parts of the world. The areas named have the highest absolute numbers and relative numbers (ignoring small areas such as individual villages).
• There is in fact nothing ambiguous about “E-M215 has at least four common subclades: E-M78, E-M81, E-M34, E-M293.....”. What is the problem with that sentence? There is little difference between E-M78 and E-V68 in terms of how common they are for example, so either could be used. You seem to be saying that it is obviously illogical to make two statements such as "big cats are common here" and "lions and leopards are common here" as approximately equivalent. But such sentences are in fact approximately equivalent.
• "the correct and only choice is to start from as close to the root of the tree being described as possible, that is, as much as current knowledge can afford us". Why? This is not a logical or necessary thing at all as far as I can see. Going as close as possible to the root means going to E-M35, and that would be meaningless. To divide something into useful categories you have to by definition go away from the root.
• "“the last of which spreads from Ethiopia to South Africa”, although true, it makes it seem as if the others are not spread from Ethiopia to North Africa/Levant". How can you get that implication out of those words? In effect you are saying that "spreads from point A to the south" implies "spreads from point A to the north"?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I have explained at length both issues of (a) substructure and (b) Pointing to arbitrary ethnic groups in the lead.

Incidentally, I went through a few haplogroup articles here on WP, like R1b,R1a and E1b1a and this is the only article that I have seen thus far that proposes to include nitpicked ethnic groups in the lead, with out exception, all the articles show MACRO-REGIONAL distributions of the relevant lineage.

That being said, I see no point of repeating the arguments I stated over again, however I will acknowledge a couple of points that were raised by you (1) The usage of the word 'common' in the context of my proposal is unnecessary (2) some type of a general frequency snapshot of E-M215 carriers around the world can be useful if included, therefore here is my new proposal:

E-M215 has two basal branches: E-M35.1 and E-M281, in turn, E-M35.1 has four branches: E-V68, E-Z827, E-V6 and E-V92, of which the first two, E-V68 and E-Z827, contain the vast majority of E-M215 bearers whom are to be more frequently observed in the East, South and North of Africa and to a lesser extent in the Near East and Europe.

138.88.60.165 (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I think that concerning our bullet point discussion above, the summary is that your edits do not match the discussion. Your new reply now reverts to what you previously implied was not your main concern, but which obviously is. Here it is: your main concern is that you do not think there should be a paragraph in the lead about which variants (note: the word sub-clade is easy to avoid) are most common in which ethnic and/or linguistic and/or geographic areas. You think it is arbitrary and nitpicking to do this. So you turned the paragraph into a useless repetition of a description of part of the family tree. Why not just delete the paragraph? Anyway, it strikes me we can save a lot of time and energy by directly discussing your real concern, which is whether it is a bad idea to describe where you find the thing that the article is about. Please address this point. I can not see why you think this is nitpicking or arbitrary and you have not yet given any explanation to this key point. If a person looks up Lions on Misplaced Pages, would it be arbitrary and nitpicking if they would find a paragraph in the lead which attempted to mention the regions where they can be found? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:40, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

BTW, of course the R1a and R1b articles have sentences in their leads concerning where they are most common. You must not have looked very hard.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:55, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, here is a new draft, in case it helps:--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:47, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Note that I see no point trying to write out a description of the family tree in the lead, because this is exactly what the body of the article does, and we should avoid repetition.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:55, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• “Anyway, it strikes me we can save a lot of time and energy by directly discussing your real concern, which is whether it is a bad idea to describe where you find the thing that the article is about. Please address this point.”

Its not a bad idea, I never said it was a bad idea, however what is a bad idea is the way you are choosing to describe it, which I termed as nitpicking and arbitrary, I have no problem using Macro-Regional descriptions that roughly depict E-M215's distribution like in most other WP haplogroup pages, alternatively or additionally, an interpolated or contour map for E-M215 can also be used, I see that other WP haplogroup pages use this as well. I have also told you to stop assuming what my real (and by implication not so real) concerns are, but you seem intent on continuing to assume so, I have raised 2 issues that I would like to be BOTH addressed equally, so I will again ask you to stop assuming which one you think is more important.138.88.60.165 (talk) 18:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• “BTW, of course the R1a and R1b articles have sentences in their leads concerning where they are most common. You must not have looked very hard”

And you must have not looked very hard at what I wrote.138.88.60.165 (talk) 18:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• “Note that I see no point trying to write out a description of the family tree in the lead, because this is exactly what the body of the article does, and we should avoid repetition.”

Yet, you see a point in mentioning about frequencies in the lead ? even-though the body of the article describes where E-M215 variants are found in detail as well. This makes no sense.138.88.60.165 (talk) 18:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I have redone my proposal in the table format above 138.88.60.165 (talk) 18:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I see no point in putting a paragraph in the lead which is almost identical to a several parts of the article, but I do see value in putting a basic comment in the lead about where a person would expect to find the thing which is the subject of this Misplaced Pages article. I have asked you to explain why you do not. Please explain. Please try to address the points I make.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Not only have I explained above, but I have also incorporated it into my modified proposal. Please read again. 138.88.60.165 (talk) 19:58, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I only see comments insisting that it is the "correct and only choice" to do what you want, and that what existed previously in the article is "nit picking" and "arbitrary". That is not an argument, and adding more words by answering indirectly is not going to help you make your case. This kind of stuff can work on internet forums but you can quickly find yourself categorized if you try it too often on Misplaced Pages. Help yourself out please, and give a real argument.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I see that you have decided to go ahead and edit the page, you have also put in a semblance of substructure, which is good, however, I would like to change the reference to the Horn of Africa to Eastern Africa, (a) for directional uniformity with Northern Africa, (b) most studies use Eastern Africa (Cruciani '04, Cruciani '07) when discussing E-M215. I would also like to take out the reference to Egyptians and Berbers, for reasons discussed above, the Macro-Regional description: North Africa is enough. 138.88.60.165 (talk) 20:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• On your first point: Horn of Africa is a geographical term which is clear and can not be interpreted any other way. East Africa, as a term for Horn of Africa is not clear, because East Africa generally refers to places like Kenya and Tanzania where E-M35 is much less common and where the unique clades being discussed have never been found. It is Misplaced Pages policy concerning geographical names that we should use the most commonly used name, and not necessarily what individual sources use.
• On your second point: I see no reason to remove references to Egyptians or Berbers. As mentioned, you have given no argument above, only repetitions of your faith in your own veracity. I'll restrict to many Berber populations as a compromise because I think there is absolutely no reasonable doubt that published sources refer to this and the high levels amongst them is obvious and striking. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:05, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Point1- Not at all, there are times where Horn of Africa can mean just Somalia for instance, the name literally describes the peninsula that sticks out of Eastern Africa, but the term is also used as a collective for Ethiopia, Somalia, Djbouti and Eritrea at other times as well, however, you have no proof that Horn of Africa is more commonly used to describe these countries than East Africa is, the UN for instance does not designate these countries as Horn of Africa but rather Eastern Africa, ditto for several other International Organizations. Also, the reference of East Africa to Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda only comes from the colonial possessions of Britain in that region, i.e. British East Africa and has nothing to do with the fact that countries included in the Horn of Africa are not also commonly called East African countries, or within geographical East Africa. This is in addition to all the scientific sources that use the East Africa designation for E-M215's distribution that I mentioned earlier and I am re-iterating again.

Point2- I have already discussed why arbitrarily nit picking certain ethnic groups and leaving out others is not only unnecessary in the lead but also pretty much uncommon, if ever seen, in the lead of other WP haplogroup articles, we already have a list of all or most of the population samples taken from the scientific studies detailed out for any user that is wanting to dig deeper to see, either in this article or articles related to it, apparently you only want to see what you are wanting to see with respect to this issue, but this is not my problem and I refuse to re-enter my arguments all over again. 138.88.60.165 (talk) 23:35, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Point 1. Please see our articles for Horn of Africa and East Africa, which are both well sourced. If you can convince the editors on those pages to change, then we can change here, but not before. I can see no way to accept your position otherwise, which I'm afraid seems quite silly to me. I have never seen the Horn of Africa used in a way which would be unclear for this article, while it is absolutely certain that East Africa is a term that normally always includes many large countries where E-M35 is not common and where the rare clades of E-M35 have never been found.

Point 2. You never made an argument, and mentioning Berbers simply follows the sources, and simply states the blindingly obvious, as well as years of consensus on this article. If you do not like the compromise we can go back to my original proposal. At this stage you have not convinced any single other editor that I am aware of.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:13, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it is unnecessary to further discuss point2 because it is done, I will therefore go to point 1 only.

• This is an article about a lineage, E-M215, which based on all authoritative scientific articles written on it, describe BOTH its origin and where it is frequently observed as East Africa and NOT the Horn of Africa, however here on this Misplaced Pages article regarding this lineage we see a contradiction, or rather an inconsistency, while its origin is stated as East Africa, its frequency, in which data for its origin is also derived from, is being described as Horn of Africa. We need some consistency, and hopefully a consistency that is inline with the scientific articles written on the subject matter.
• Here are a list of quotes from authoritative scientific articles describing where the lineage is distributed and/or originated:

“EM78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa, E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002).”

“Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b”

“Haplogroup E-M78 was observed over a wide area, including eastern (21.5%) and northern (18.5%) Africa”

“The cluster E-M78g was found in eastern Africa at an average frequency of 17.7%”

The above taken from Cruciani (2004) (Not one mention of Horn of Africa in that article)

“because the present high frequencies of E-V12 chromosomes in eastern Africa are entirely accounted for by E-V32”

“In turn, the presence of E-M78 chromosomes in eastern Africa can be only explained through a back migration of chromosomes that had acquired the M78 mutation in northeastern Africa”

“that represents about 82% of the eastern African E-M78 chromosomes,”

The above taken from Cruciani (2006) (Again, Not one mention of Horn of Africa in that article)

“Among the most differentiated lineages carrying the M35 mutation, haplotype 30 (M34) is present in eastern Africa, as is haplotype 33 (M78), which is also found at high frequency in northern Africa, whereas haplotype 37 (M81) is found at high frequencies only in northern Africa.”

“The only notable exceptions are represented by the haplotypes bearing the M78 (common in northern and eastern Africa) and the M35 (common in eastern and southern Africa) mutations.”

The above taken from Cruciani (2002) (Again, Not one mention of Horn of Africa in that article)

So here I have produced for you 3 of the most authoritative articles on E-M215 and not one of them even mentions the Horn of Africa, I think it is high time for you to produce your sources stating that E-M215 is described as most commonly observed in the Horn of Africa rather than East Africa.

• You said, verbatim, “It is Misplaced Pages policy concerning geographical names that we should use the most commonly used name, and not necessarily what individual sources use.” where is your source that the most COMMONLY used name for the region that we are discussing, and in the context that we are discussing, is the 'Horn of Africa' and NOT East Africa ? Again, I would like for you to produce the sources showing this most 'common' usage.138.88.60.165 (talk) 15:28, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

As explained above, our Misplaced Pages articles concerning the terms Horn of Africa and East Africa are clear and well sourced. And point 2 is not closed just because you say it is. You are obviously being tendentious, and adding length to your posts in order to pretend to have made an argument is pretty easy to spot. I know what the Cruciani articles say, and we both know it is irrelevant concerning this point. (And it has been discussed to death over several years of editing on this article.) I am currently considering you to have stopped rational discussion. I'll edit based on what I can see is most correct and if necessary we can call for broader community opinion.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Please provide the DIRECT sources as I have requested above, I am willing to change my mind if there are indeed a majority of scientific articles describing E-M215's distribution in East Africa as Horn of Africa, instead of East Africa , however I am not willing to change my position until you do so.138.88.60.165 (talk) 16:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

As you have already read and understood, concerning geographical names, what terms specific sources use is not relevant in WP policy. You can not simply announce your own policy demands.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:26, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Trying to make it simple:

• If you look at our East Africa article it gives "United Nations Statistics Division - Standard Country and Area Codes Classifications" as one source that makes it clear that "East Africa" includes such countries as Kenya, Tanzania, and Mozambique. If you want to play the game of asking for more sources, that would be a waste of time. I think this is enough.
• If you look at the context in the Cruciani articles, you will see in contrast that it makes clear that the authors definitely intend NOT to include any countries outside the Horn of Africa, such as Kenya or anything further south.

To ignore the above very simple logic is either deliberate tendentiousness, or else shows extreme problems of editing judgement. As mentioned before, this can be quickly resolved by bringing in more community members to confirm that the above is indeed simple common sense.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The "United Nations Statistics Division - Standard Country and Area Codes Classifications" shows that Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia and Djibouti along with other East African countries are designated within the East African region, that is all, besides the fact that I had already mentioned this earlier, what is this supposed to prove?, certainly not your position, as it stands, you still have not provided a source that supports what the commonly used name for E-M215's distribution (and origin) is, while I provided 3 sources stating East Africa as the most commonly used name for the region that E-M215 is spread in and originates, you have simply just stated what you the think most commonly used name for the spread of this lineage is, or maybe even what you want the most commonly used name to be, this is not adequate.138.88.60.165 (talk) 14:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

In addition to the Authoritative sources I provided above, here below are less authoritative (commercial) sources that use East Africa as the terminology for the region where E-M215 is spread. While these do not carry as much weight as the Authoritative sources cited above, nevertheless it further shows what is commonly used with respect to the lineage in question:

“One of these branches is haplogroup E1b1b1, which originated in a group of people living in eastern Africa.”

“Today the many branches of E1b1b1 are seen in populations throughout parts of northern and eastern Africa, as well as the Near East and eastern Europe.”

“One branch of E1b1b, E1b1b1a, originated in a population that moved from eastern Africa into northeastern Africa about 14,000 years ago”

Personal Genetics Testing Company 23andME

“BRANCH:M35.1

AGE:20,000-24,000 YEARS AGO

LOCATION OF ORIGIN: EAST AFRICA”

National Geographic, Genographic Project, Geno 2.0

"With origins in East Africa or the Middle East, E1b1b1 has spread among North and East African populations, the Middle East, and into Europe from the Mediterranean."

Personal Genetics Testing Company FTDNA

Again, the above is only to show what terminology is commonly used for the spread of E-M215 in the region of question and not as some authoritative scientific source regarding the theory on the origin and migration of the lineage.138.88.60.165 (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

To repeat this is not a sourcing question. The Horn of Africa is the name of the part of East Africa which the Cruciani papers refer to as East Africa. As far as I know, the name "East Africa" has probably NEVER been used as a term for that PART of East Africa (which everyone including you knows normally as the Horn of Africa) except as a name of a particular DATA SET in those genetics articles you mention. I know the authors never would have expected that a data set name created by some Italians in a genetics article would somehow become someone's idea of a gold standard source for a geographical region! LOL.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:02, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

BTW just to make it clear, the sources you now give such as testing companies are clearly just paraphrasing the Cruciani articles, as I am sure you realize, and are not reliable sources for this discussion and nor are they presenting any results or defining what they mean. The Cruciani et al articles DO define what they mean, and that makes it easy for us to see that they do not mean what is normally referred to as East Africa. Anyway, surely no genetics source is a reliable source for geographical names.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Break: the geography terminology question

138.88.60.165 above and in your reverting you are demanding I produce sources. Sources for what? What point of disagreement between us needs sourcing? If your demand is not clear, we can make no progress. As far as I can see...

• There is no disagreement between us about what the Cruciani articles say (East Africa).
• There is no disagreement between us about which specific part of East Africa these authors show as having the highest frequencies, and the most unique basal clades. (It is the part of East Africa called the Horn of Africa, whether they call it that or not.)
• There is no disagreement between us about the fact that the authors themselves (unlike the paragraph you want to put in our article) make it quite clear that in the rest of East Africa, apart from the Horn, there is much less frequency and diversity of E-M215.

So I think this is not a serious sourcing question. Perhaps your edit demands amount to trying to argue the following:

• A group of Italian geneticists can be seen as a reliable source for a novel use (in English) of geographic terms (using the term "East Africa", to refer to only the Horn of Africa, which I understand is probably an Italian terminology, given that Italy once had colonial interests in the Horn, as their area of influence in colonial East Africa).

If you want, we can take this to WP:RSN. But please check if this is really your position.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Looking over how unconstructive the discussion has been already, I have not waited. I posted to WP:RSN. Please feel free to comment there. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• May I suggest using the geographic subregions for for English WP articles used in the English Subregion article? I know that some authors/sources use other definitions. If you use those authors, cite how they define the subregion in questions.--RebekahThorn (talk) 11:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Seems a very reasonable suggestion in a general way. But I do not think there is any dispute about what "East Africa" normally means, nor how it is being used as a peculiar article-specific technical term in Cruciani et al's genetic sample collection. I just think this is a practical editing question about finding neat wording. Suggestions welcome. We should keep in mind that the Cruciani et al articles, and other relevant articles such as Semino et al, Luis et al, and Henn et al, are all discussed in detail in the body of the article and this is not being disputed. My aim has been to give a very quick summary of some key points discussed in the body, especially:-

• There are several quite basal types of E-M215 which have only ever been found in Ethiopia (examples: E-M281, E-V92, E-V6, E-V42; see the tree in the sub-clades section).
• Highest frequencies of E-M215 in the world, at least for any large population, are consistently found in North Africa (for example in many Berber speaking populations) and the Horn of Africa (for example in speakers of Lowland East Cushitic languages such as Somali and Oromo speakers, which has by the way not only been reported by the Cruciani team).
• In other parts of East Africa, to the south of the Horn of Africa, the situation is very different from in the Horn of Africa. Only E-M293 is found, and then only in much more limited frequency than E-M215 is found in the Horn of Africa. The main source for this is of course not the Cruciani team at all, but Henn et al.

So that just as a point of making ourselves clear this is a case where there is a good reason to distinguish the Horn of Africa from the rest of East Africa. As far as I can see, WP:RS does not disallow such a wording decision. What do you think?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

It is very simple, you said, “It is Misplaced Pages policy concerning geographical names that we should use the most commonly used name, and not necessarily what individual sources use.” I am asking you for a source for the most commonly used name for the lineage in the region, I have provided 6 sources (3 Authoritative and 3 Commercial), you have provided none but your own opinion, thus far, I am waiting till you bring something to the table. The other issue, which I unfortunately have to re-iterate again, is an issue with consistency, again the lineage's origin says East Africa on the same page, why is this different from the frequency distribution description, and why are you not objecting to the origin being specified as East Africa? It is all based on the same samples -Dataset. 138.88.60.165 (talk) 14:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• I asked you to explain your sourcing request clearly and you have again failed. Apparently your effort to try to fit geographical naming into the realm of genetics articles is getting you lost. Your first sentence makes no sense? We are discussing a geographical name, and nothing to do with "lineages". The problem is that a reliable source for a geographical name is not a dataset name in a series of Italian genetics article.
• You have not provided 6 sources. You have named the one series of Italian articles which all use the same data set and therefore obviously use the same data set names. But to do this you are ignoring the context in those articles which shows how the data sets are defined. (Terms in technical articles are often idiosyncratic. We do not have to use them the same way.) You have also given names of testing companies who paraphrase those articles. But you already admitted that these are not appropriate sources for this purpose. In summary, you have not provided any appropriate sources for novel geographical names.
• You mention the Origins section, and indeed many of your quotations from Cruciani et al mention things like this. But apparently you long ago lost sight of the fact that the Misplaced Pages paragraph that you are trying to change is not about this subject. It is just a summary paragraph in the lead about where E-M215 and some of its variants are mainly found. And it does not only rely on Cruciani et al but also all the other articles we use in the body of the article such as Henn et al and Semino et al and Luis et al. And concerning that very simple target you are distorting it by trying to imply that E-M215 as a whole, and also its rare basal variants such as E-M281, E-V92, E-V6, E-V42, are all found equally in places like Tanzania and not only places like Ethiopia. I am absolutely sure that the Cruciani team would be surprised to see their article used this way! They certainly never say anything like what you want to say in this article. Anyone reading their article will see everything explained out, even though unusual terms are used. Why do want to describe things in a deliberately inaccurate way?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:02, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• I did explain my sourcing request, you either did not understand or are pretending like you don't understand, here it is again - Provide all the sources that use the terminology 'Horn of Africa' for the region where E-M215 is spread in that part of the world. Provide ANY source that you can for starters, we will then weigh which source has more or less authority. The point would then be to aggregate these sources to find the most commonly used terminology and use that, UNIFORMLY, in this article.
• Well, I have provided 3 separate publications and 3 separate sources from different DNA testing companies. Here is another one:

"Whereas a subclade of haplogroup E (M35) appears to have arisen in eastern Africa over 20 kya and subsequently spread to the Middle East and Europe"

Scheinfeldt (2010), "Working toward a synthesis of archaeological,linguistic, and genetic data for inferring African population history"

• I was not referring to the origins section but the little box at the top right of the page that says "Possible place of origin - Eastern Africa"138.88.60.165 (talk) 16:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• This request still isn't clear. Let me exemplify a few possible interpretations:

example 1. You are claiming you have never heard of the region in the north of East Africa which contains Ethiopia and Somalia being called "The Horn of Africa". But surely if you just google Horn of Africa, open a dictionary, etc you'll thousands of sources. It is just a normal English term. We do not normally need to source basic English terms. So surely this is not what you mean right?

example 2. You want to see geneticists using the word. But of course they: Semino et al, Luis et al. Again this can not be what you mean.

example 3. You claim that you have seen no evidence that any geneticists believe that the Horn of Africa is a region with high E-M215 frequencies. But that can't be what you are claiming either. Cruciani et al make it clear as long as you look at their data table which defines what they mean. But then there are many other papers such as Sanchez et al, Semino et al, etc etc. And concerning the unusual clades only found in the Horn, well in fact Cruciani et al are more specific. They say Ethiopia. So you can't be arguing this surely?

• Your new source Scheinfeldt does not appear to mention anything relevant to this discussion?
• It does not matter which discussion of origins you are looking at. My point was that the paragraph you keep trying to change is simply not about origins, and not attempting to describe any particular source. It is a quick summary of some key points which are in the body of the article, and which any reader coming to the article is likely to what to see quickly, like what thing is this article about and where would normally come across one. This is a normal way to write leads for WP articles. Before you start changing things, you should be try to understand what the aim was of the thing you will change.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Your reverts of myself and another editor continue despite unanimity on the WP:RSN noticeboard. Before this starts being handled as a behavioral question, which would probably include investigation of who the IP editor is in past WP manifestations (which is pretty obvious), are you actually able to make any constructive response to the above post?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

E-M35.1 vs E-M35.2

Outside of direct quotes, I think it is wise to distinguish between these branches as one is a descendant of the other. Even with direct quotes, the article text should explain which (likely E-M35.1) is meant.--RebekahThorn (talk) 01:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. E-M35.2 does not appear in most sources for a reason. It is a private mutation and would not be included in the ISOGG tree under current rules. Therefore we can and should spare readers the obvious confusion we would create by using a different mutation name to all the best sources. Policy is quite clear that WP is not a place for clearing up confusion, but for following what has been published.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 05:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

starting again concerning new punishment revert

Recent discussion about the edit demands in the lead of 138.88.60.165 (presumably the same as User:Causteau) has been on WP:RSN, because 138.88.60.165 claimed that the demands concerning the words "Horn of Africa" versus "East Africa" were sourcing policy based. Discussion there has been unanimously against the position of 138.88.60.165. Other issues now arise with 138.88.60.165's latest edit. I will simply list the obvious problems:

• The edit summary is "Going with a modification of my original proposal since Andrew Lancaster changed the compromised paragraph that was being worked on for a few days." The idea of going back to a less compromising edit as a kind of revenge or punishment for my recent attempt to do an edit which was not a simple revert, is obviously troubling, but matches the tendentious tone of all discussion since this IP recently appeared. The whole idea of Misplaced Pages is to try to improve things, and when reverts have been happening, it is generally seen as good to try out edits which are not simple reverts.
• As discussed the repetitive opening words inserted into the paragraph need to be removed: E-M215 has two basal branches: E-M35 and E-M281, the only branch that is found outside of East Africa, E-M35, in turn has four branches: E-V68, E-Z827, E-V6 and E-V92. This exact information is already covered much more clearly in several places nearby in the article, and it now distracts from the aim of this paragraph. In contrast, a simple distribution summary is needed here because the E-M215 article has in recent times been split into several daughter articles. So the distribution information is not as quickly to hand for any new reader.
• As discussed already above, there is simply no reason to forbid ourselves from mentioning what the literature identifies as the two most common clades within E-M215, such as E-M78, just because these clades are not "basal". Clades are simply parts of a family tree (fancy name: phylogeny). It is as if 138.88.60.165 is saying that it is impossible to say that "the Duke of Marlborough and Winston Churchill were the two most famous Churchills", simply because these two famous Churchills are not in the same generation.
• The replacement of the words Horn of Africa with East Africa is being discussed at WP:RSN where 138.88.60.165's is unanimously rejected. But also, 138.88.60.165 now inserts a demand that we state quite wrongly that Southern Africa has one of the highest frequencies of E-M215 in the world. This is obviously unacceptable.
• My words "Several variants of E-M215 have only been found in Ethiopia" has been replaced by "E-V6 and E-V92 are to be primarily observed in the Ethiopian region only". Why only mention these two variants when there are many more? And secondly, the wording is obviously illogical ("primarily...only" it can be one or the other; obviously primarily is not appropriate).--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)