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Revision as of 07:17, 16 January 2013 editHiLo48 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers91,261 edits Rubbish?← Previous edit Revision as of 11:18, 16 January 2013 edit undoJenova20 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers13,887 edits A barnstar for you!: new WikiLove messageNext edit →
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::::North - I hadn't heard of the formal concept of ] until someone else here pointed it out to me as an explanation of why Americans are so sensitive about any criticism. I think it helps to explain things a bit. As for your suggestion that Americans think "''We like it how it is in the USA and think that such is best for us, and have no comment on how you should do it in country B''", have you heard of the expression "''Yankee go home''"? Ever wondered why it exists? Are you aware that the US has troops stationed in more than half the other countries in the world? (Well over 100 of them.) And that doesn't include the troops protecting US embassies. (Ever wondered why they're needed?) The US does tell other countries how to do things. Then there's the cultural imperialism. Generally unavoidable because of the massive size of the US economy and it's domination of world entertainment and media content. It means that American values and fashion become the values of cultures far removed from the US. This annoys some people in those other countries who despair over the loss of their individual cultures. Why do kids in African slums wear baseball/gangster hats backwards, when they really do need something to keep the sun out their eyes? And please don't tell me again that guns are OK because they don't kill as many people as cars and doctors. I have no idea of the accuracy of your numbers, but true or not, we should be aiming to reduce all of them. Now, combining a few of those things, the US's media made sure the rest of the world instantly heard about the innocent kids killed at Sandy Hook. The rest of the world cares about innocent kids dying, anywhere. I certainly do. We all like to think that such events could be prevented. Compassion forces us to say something. That's not telling Americans how to live their lives. That's caring. Artificial things like national borders should never get in the way of that. ] (]) 20:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC) ::::North - I hadn't heard of the formal concept of ] until someone else here pointed it out to me as an explanation of why Americans are so sensitive about any criticism. I think it helps to explain things a bit. As for your suggestion that Americans think "''We like it how it is in the USA and think that such is best for us, and have no comment on how you should do it in country B''", have you heard of the expression "''Yankee go home''"? Ever wondered why it exists? Are you aware that the US has troops stationed in more than half the other countries in the world? (Well over 100 of them.) And that doesn't include the troops protecting US embassies. (Ever wondered why they're needed?) The US does tell other countries how to do things. Then there's the cultural imperialism. Generally unavoidable because of the massive size of the US economy and it's domination of world entertainment and media content. It means that American values and fashion become the values of cultures far removed from the US. This annoys some people in those other countries who despair over the loss of their individual cultures. Why do kids in African slums wear baseball/gangster hats backwards, when they really do need something to keep the sun out their eyes? And please don't tell me again that guns are OK because they don't kill as many people as cars and doctors. I have no idea of the accuracy of your numbers, but true or not, we should be aiming to reduce all of them. Now, combining a few of those things, the US's media made sure the rest of the world instantly heard about the innocent kids killed at Sandy Hook. The rest of the world cares about innocent kids dying, anywhere. I certainly do. We all like to think that such events could be prevented. Compassion forces us to say something. That's not telling Americans how to live their lives. That's caring. Artificial things like national borders should never get in the way of that. ] (]) 20:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

== A barnstar for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Special Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | It's the very special LGBT Barnstar for the way you calmly handled the dispute with DarkGuardianVII on ]. Congratulations and keep up the good work! ''']<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>(])</sup>''' 11:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
|}

Revision as of 11:18, 16 January 2013

Welcome!

Hello, HiLo48, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! -- Longhair\ 07:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Further

Further to my response at my talk page I note that both Longhair and Brian have come to your page to welcome you. Both are great participants here and you have some fundamental links to get you started in terms of understanding. If you need more help please ask at any time.--VirtualSteve 07:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Reviewer and rollback

Hi, I've added a couple of flags to your account: reviewer and rollback. I hope you find them useful. Let me know if you have any questions. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:07, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

For keeping the baddies at bay...

The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
Thanks for keeping an eye out for damaging edits. bodnotbod (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


Feel free to move this barnstar to wherever in your user space you'd prefer to have it. bodnotbod (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Humor at Protected Pages

As someone who lives on an island (granted its a VERY large island) perhaps you are unaware of what the rules are on the Mainland (thats what we call it) for articles that may be considered political in nature;

  1. Any cross-party hugfest can only be initiated by the right,
  2. Any internal hugfest (or support of one another) within the right should NOT be constued as anything more than friendliness and cheerful banter,
  3. Any internal hugfest (or support of one another) within the left could, should and will result in immediate blocks and bans to the active participants and severe reprimands to any editors that were seen smiling in the general vicinity.

These are just some basic guidelines to assure the safety and sanity of your fellow editors. A good rule of thumb to follow is that if the right is obviously humorous 3 times in a row, some humor from the left will be tolerated since the conversation will be ended via "shrink wrap" at any moment. BTW, sorry about the spelling of humour. Buster Seven Talk 20:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for information

Hello HiLo48, This lousy t-shirt has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Compliments on your sang froid

I can't help but admire your reaction the other day to the namecalling you were subjected to by Encyclopedia91. You must have the patience and forbearance of a saint! I know I would have reacted quite differently. You are a model for us all. Sincerely, --Kenatipo 21:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Nice Koekjes

Buster7 has given you a Nice Koekjes which promote fellowship, goodwill and WikiLove. Hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the good flavor of Nice Koekjes around Wiki World by giving someone else one. Maybe to a friend or, better yet, to someone you have had disagreements with in the past. Nice Biscuits are very tasty and have been known to calm even the most savage beast. Enjoy! Buster Seven Talk

I just gave a koekje to an Aussie friend, User:Alastair Haines and I thought of you. It's fresh. I made it last night. Buster Seven Talk 14:27, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Some words I'm working on

Been thinking about this criticism issue for a while. Probably not the ideal place to say this, but I want to try putting the words together. I think criticism sections are almost always going to be inappropriate in Misplaced Pages. Just about everyone has somebody who disagrees with them about something. Some, like outspoken atheists, will have more than many from conservative religious parts of society who disagree. That's a given. We cannot possibly list all the criticism, so what's the point of listing any? We should just describe what's significant about someone (i.e. why they have an article here) and let others decide on the merits of their actions and views. The same goes for people significant for their strong religious views. List those views, and let it stand. Going any further will inevitably create the debate of "how much further?" So, no criticism sections. OK?

I agree with you 90+%. Criticism sections are lazy writing, often places for sneaking in their point-of-view. They are often a way of taking an obscure critic and giving them promotion by adding their opinions. I often get the impression that some editors start with a point of view and then web search until they find some obscure opinion piece and add it to the article. In these cases, only reliable sources and notable ones will do. Instead of putting criticism in its own ghetto, if legit it belongs next to the ideas being presented. Thank you for bringing up an important issue. --Javaweb (talk) 00:10, 15 July 2011 (UTC)Javaweb
You two might want to check out Misplaced Pages:Criticism, an essay that discourages the existence of criticism sections and goes over the main points against them.AerobicFox (talk) 22:20, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

File:PNHP poster.jpg For your great work at the Reference Desks
Please accept this Physicians for a National Health Program poster for all the hard reference desks you answer. You're so often catching them faster than I can. Spectacular! Dualus (talk) 04:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I support you

You were right in the Pregnancy talk page. The image you wanted in the lead has a much more "medical", serious and informative tone than the one that the scores of probably American nipple-o-phobic prudes finally forced there. Actually, even from a purely aesthetic point of view the bare breasted image is superior because of the more "charming" expression of the woman in the picture, rather than the a bit like "whatcha lookin' at" expression of the Asian woman. --Cerlomin (talk) 22:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

For your sport work. :)

LauraHale (talk) 01:59, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Happy Australia Day! Thank you for contributing to Australian content!

Australian Wikimedian Recognition (AWR)
Thank you for your contributions on English Misplaced Pages that have helped improve Australian related content. :D It is very much appreciated. :D Enjoy your Australia Day and please continue your good work! LauraHale (talk) 02:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
I have spotted your username regularly popping up and, on occasion, beating me to a reversion. You also seem to be active in a wide variety of activities on Misplaced Pages. Keep up the good work! LittleOldMe (talk) 07:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


Barnstar

The Original Barnstar
This has been due for a while. From someone who disagrees with you 3/4 of the time, to someone who understands what an objective world encyclopedia should be, and puts all else aside in pursuing that end, and who's methods of disputing are refreshingly direct. North8000 (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)

Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.

Steven Zhang's Fellowship Slideshow

In this issue:

  • Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
  • Research: The most recent DR data
  • Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
  • Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
  • DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
  • Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
  • Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?
Read the entire first edition of The Olive Branch -->

--The Olive Branch 19:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #2)

To add your named to the newsletter delivery list, please sign up here

This edition The Olive Branch is focusing on a 2nd dispute resolution RfC. Two significant proposals have been made. Below we describe the background and recent progress and detail those proposals. Please review them and follow the link at the bottom to comment at the RfC. We need your input!

View the full newsletter
Background

Until late 2003, Jimmy Wales was the arbiter in all major disputes. After the Mediation Committee and the Arbitration Committee were founded, Wales delegated his roles of dispute resolution to these bodies. In addition to these committees, the community has developed a number of informal processes of dispute resolution. At its peak, over 17 dispute resolution venues existed. Disputes were submitted in each venue in a different way.

Due to the complexity of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution, members of the community were surveyed in April 2012 about their experiences with dispute resolution. In general, the community believes that dispute resolution is too hard to use and is divided among too many venues. Many respondents also reported their experience with dispute resolution had suffered due to a shortage of volunteers and backlogging, which may be due to the disparate nature of the process.

An evaluation of dispute resolution forums was made in May this year, in which data on response and resolution time, as well as success rates, was collated. This data is here.

Progress so far
Stage one of the dispute resolution noticeboard request form. Here, participants fill out a request through a form, instead of through wikitext, making it easier for them to use, but also imposing word restrictions so volunteers can review the dispute in a timely manner.

Leading off from the survey in April and the evaluation in May, several changes to dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) were proposed. Rather than using a wikitext template to bring disputes to DRN, editors used a new javascript form. This form was simpler to use, but also standardised the format of submissions and applied a word limit so that DRN volunteers could more easily review disputes. A template to summarise, and a robot to maintain the noticeboard, were also created.

As a result of these changes, volunteers responded to disputes in a third of the time, and resolved them 60% faster when compared to May. Successful resolution of disputes increased by 17%. Submissions were 25% shorter by word count.(see Dispute Resolution Noticeboard Statistics - August compared to May)

Outside of DRN other simplification has taken place. The Mediation Cabal was closed in August, and Wikiquette assistance was closed in September. Nevertheless, around fifteen different forums still exist for the resolution of Misplaced Pages disputes.

Proposed changes

Given the success of the past efforts at DR reform, the current RFC proposes we implement:

1) A submission gadget for every DR venue tailored to the unique needs of that forum.

2) A universal dispute resolution wizard, accessible from Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution.

  • This wizard would ask a series of structured questions about the nature of the dispute.
  • It would then determine to which dispute resolution venue a dispute should be sent.
  • If the user agrees with the wizard's selection, s/he would then be asked a series of questions about the details of the dispute (for example, the usernames of the involved editors).
  • The wizard would then submit a request for dispute resolution to the selected venue, in that venue's required format (using the logic of each venue's specialized form, as in proposal #1). The wizard would not suggest a venue which the user has already identified in answer to a question like "What other steps of dispute resolution have you tried?".
  • Similar to the way the DRN request form operates, this would be enabled for all users. A user could still file a request for dispute resolution manually if they so desired.
  • Coding such a wizard would be complex, but the DRN gadget would be used as an outline.
  • Once the universal request form is ready (coded by those who helped create the DRN request form) the community will be asked to try out and give feedback on the wizard. The wizard's logic in deciding the scope and requirements of each venue would be open to change by the community at any time.

3) Additionally, we're seeking any ideas on how we can attract and retain more dispute resolution volunteers.

Please share your thoughts at the RfC.

--The Olive Branch 18:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to record this before it gets buried

"...user HiLo48 has a biased towards Netball and against male sport's."

I think it's a gem.

HiLo48 (talk) 06:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
YOU are a human being with a brain, NO scarecrows allowed. Kennvido (talk) 10:29, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Personal opinion

In the RfC/U, which you have apparently stated you would not participate in, I made a comment which I think might be useful. If you look at the Bibliography of encyclopedias, you will see that there are a rather large number out there, many of which are in the public domain. I am myself currently in the process of downloading to myself the various volumes of the old Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, some of whose articles have been said in reviews of more recent reference works to be possibly the best articles on those subjects ever written, with the intention of ultimately adding them to WikiSource, and, maybe, starting some articles which we don't yet have in the English wikipedia which are contained in it. I made a statement in the RfC that, should problems continue, it might be extremely productive if perhaps you found a topic of interest to you and maybe do the same. User:Blofeld, who has apparently recently retired, started the bibliography page with the intentions of giving interested editors some sources which could, hopefully, establish notability for some topics and provide some content with which to start articles that don't yet exist.

I said somewhere before that, as a citizen of the US, I often agree with your own opinions that the project tends to be overbalanced to the US side. Starting articles on non-US topics, possibly using public domain sources, is one way I am going to try to develop some of the content that is currently weak or nonexistent regarding some of those topics in the field of religion, philosophy, ethics, sociology, etc., as per the source above. And, like I said, there are a lot of other such sources.

I do think that maybe, if you find problems with other editors persisting on wikipedia, maybe one thing to do would be to do some more work elsewhere, like I intend to do. Even for a lot of the content here, in the English wikipedia, material on some topics, like older biographies, won't have changed that much since some public domain works were published, and they might be extremely useful in not only being more available to both our editors and readers, but also in at least some cases maybe one of the best ways to help get some articles here about older topics up to GA and maybe better. Just an idea, anyway. John Carter (talk) 00:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposed closure of RfC/U

Hello there, I'm a relatively uninvolved user in relation to your editing. I took a read through the RfC/U and proposed a closure at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/HiLo48#Proposed Closure. Please read it and see if it is something you could live with. Having read your user page declaration I think that it is. Please let me know. Thanks Hasteur (talk) 16:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Hasteur, I appreciate what you're trying to do here. For reasons I've outlined many times elsewhere, I regard Misplaced Pages's justice and discipline processes to be appalling opportunities for the bigots and POV pushers to promote their non-constructive and malicious agendas, and pile mud on an accused, with virtually no chance that their behaviour will be scrutinised in that place, nor for the accused to defend themselves, so I really would prefer to not have to look at any of that RFC/U. It will just make me feel like being uncivil because of the masses of nonsense therein. But, because I can see that yours is a good faith proposal, I have had a look at just that section.
Again, because I know that many of those who would like to silence me do look at my User pages, I'll copy the proposal here for clarity:
HiLo48 acknowledges that their behavior, at times, is incivil and will endeavor to refrain from the identified language. HiLo48 acknowledges that future incivil behavior may result in suspension of editing privileges or referral to ArbCom for resolution of the long standing conduct dispute.
I would still argue that most of this dispute is not a conduct one, but a content one. That should be obvious to any objective reader who might notice that everybody criticising me over civility has also disagreed with me over content, some very nastily. (But possibly without naughty words, which I think only makes it worse.) Attacking me over civility was always a distraction from the truth, and from making Misplaced Pages a great, objective encyclopaedia.
Another point - I would like all involved to look at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement. That's the latest incarnation of an agonisingly slow attempt by some here to firstly define incivility, and then decide on punishment for those evil folk who allegedly display it. The discussion really hasn't got past the definition stage. If Misplaced Pages cannot define incivility, logically, nobody can be disciplined for it. (I know logic doesn't really apply here, sadly, but....) Interestingly, much of that discussion has occurred with virtually no contributions from any of those more interested in attacking me at the RFC/U.
I will also repeat my point that some of my allegedly uncivil language has successfully drawn attention to some very nasty POV pushing by some of those who have now tried to silence me via the RFC/U, and ended up keeping some appalling, POV nonsense out of Misplaced Pages. I am proud of that. I ask objective observers, which would you prefer - no naughty words, but lots of POV in Misplaced Pages, or occasional telling-it-like-it-really-is on Talk pages, and a better encyclopaedia as a result?
In conclusion, my position on niceness is made clear at User:HiLo48#A non-swearing vow (Lying is safer). I have no plans to change that position. Ironically, it has been in place since well before the RFC/U, but nobody seemed to notice. Trying to silence an effective enemy must have seemed a much easier option to many than finding out the truth.
Again, thanks Hasteur for your good faith proposal here. HiLo48 (talk) 23:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I think the RfC/U was closed. It's hard to tell. It seems these things aren't publicised very well. Certainly nobody told me. Not sure what it all means. Nothing seems to have changed anywhere. Just a lot of nasty words written about me by people who don't like my approach to the damage they do to Misplaced Pages, while I was off making another few thousand positive contributions. Oh well, such is life. HiLo48 (talk) 11:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

God, not good

Thank you for that. hamiltonstone (talk) 07:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

You're quite welcome :-) HiLo48 (talk) 07:49, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Wayne LaPierre

I was probably a little dismissive in my response to your comment on the LaPierre article. Just wanted to thank you for your comment. It is constructive and helpful. Athene cunicularia (talk) 05:54, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

US gun sanctions

Regarding the now-closed US sanctions thread on the Ref Desk, I thought I'd provide some follow-up info on one of the subthreads in that discussion. Jayron (I think) brought up an Aussie uni shooting and you replied with words to the effect of "he only had handguns, not assault rifles; thus the body count was lower". This is common but fallacious reasoning, and is unfortunately one of the things that US gun control discussions get bogged down in. Assault rifles look scary and thus draw attention, but there's really only one quality of firearms that allows a shooter to rack up a high body count, and that's "semi-automatic". That, and not "assault rifle", means a trained shooter can fire at a high rate for an indefinite period of time, and handguns are just as capable of that as rifles.

By way of example, see the Virginia Tech massacre, which appears to be the highest single-shooter single-incident fatality total on record, and was carried out with two handguns. The chief difference, then (to my admittedly untrained eye), is whether the shooter put himself in a position to be overwhelmed. The Aussie uni shooter went into a crowded room full of adults and was successfully rushed -- maybe when he stopped to reload, maybe he was firing revolvers instead of semi-autos (he carried both), maybe it was just as a matter of heroic desperation. The Virginia Tech shooter, on the other hand, shot many of his victims through closed doors. Those victims were blocking the doors to allow other students to escape -- maybe that reduced the death total -- but they also prevented themselves from being able to overwhelm the shooter as in the Aussie case -- so maybe it didn't help so much. The Newtown shooter had less difficulty since he was in an environment where most victims weren't adults (and were thus unlikely to be able to overwhelm him regardless), but I find it unlikely that "rifle" vs "handgun" would have substantially affected the outcome.

And any worthwhile gun control solution in the US has to deal with the fact of ~200 million privately owned semi-automatic firearms (my guesstimate extrapolation from recent Washington Post data of ~300 million total privately owned firearms in the US). This is, frankly, a problem on a scale (either absolute or per capita) no other country in the world has attempted, or can conceive of attempting, to solve. I think it'd be interesting to see what happened if some substantial block of the world tried sanctions as you suggest, but given the irrational American exceptionalism that still pervades a lot of the country (see also certain posters on the RD), I'm skeptical that it would do much other than further hardening existing positions. Anyway, lots of blather. Hopefully you'll find some of it of interest. — Lomn 15:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Lomn. I'll always acknowledge that because we evil foreigners who should be keeping our noses out of the USA's business don't use guns much, we're not going to know as much about them as Americans. Now I know more. That's always a good thing. Just watching the article develop here on the Sandy Hook shootings, it's depressed me that there's a subset of editors far more concerned about the precise makes and models of guns and ammunition used than anything else, like kids dying. A real obsession.
I believe it's illegal for a private citizen in Australia to own a semi-automatic weapon anyway. It MUST make a difference in the long term.
As for that thread, I'm a teacher, a pretty unusual one. among other things I like pushing the boundaries in other peoples' thinking. I expected, even though I asked them not to, that some Americans would just automatically react negatively, and play some form of the American exceptionalism card. My hope is always that in the longer term some of the thoughts of radicals like me might actually creep into their thinking. I wouldn't care if they never acknowledge my contribution. Change can happen. After all, a black President was seen as an impossibility for most of my life, and look what happened! HiLo48 (talk) 20:11, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't know Australian law , but "semi-automatic" encompasses the majority of firearms. For example, all pistols except revolvers are semi-automatic. North8000 (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
And most ordinary Australians don't own them. The main exception would be gun club members who use them for competition. HiLo48 (talk) 21:51, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't surprise me to hear that someplace has restrictive firearm laws. It drawing a line at semi-automatics does surprise me. Allowing firearms but banning semi-autos is sort of like allowing automobiles but banning the ones that burn gasoline. North8000 (talk) 22:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
It works here. Not sure if you're aware of the relatively recent history. The Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania in 1996 led a conservative government to bring in very strict gun laws. There was a big government buy back of weapons that were declared illegal. Since then, there have been no mass shootings. The Monash University shooting in 2002 that Jayron raised (as what I thought was a pretty weak debating point) involved the death of a whole two people! We Aussies are pretty convinced that we've got the balance pretty right now. Just as some Americans are about the USA. We just don't understand the latter fact. HiLo48 (talk) 23:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Not that the media would cover it, but our deaths from mass shooting in the USA are about the same amount as deaths from bee stings, and somewhere about 1/2000th the deaths from doctor errors. In fact our deaths from ALL murders committed with firearms (about 14,000 per year) are about 1/10th the deaths from doctor errors and 1/3 the deaths from automobiles. So IMHO it works here too, not that you can learn that from our media. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
1. Surely it's not just mass shooting that are at issue. It ALL deaths from firearms. 2. I'm sure the country is aiming to reduce the number of deaths from doctor errors and road trauma. Might as well aim to reduce damage from firearms too. You see, the weird thing is that the rest of the world doesn't do it the same way as the US, and doesn't have as much drama with firearms. We just don't understand why Americans want so many guns. Have you read American exceptionalism? HiLo48 (talk) 00:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I never read it but now just did. That's a whole 'nother topic!
The answer to your sort-of-question is is really a zillion answers, trying to generalize millions of things / hundreds of millions of people spanning >500 years. But if I had to try to (over)generalize the difference, I would say that it goes like this. Every decision has its costs and benefits. Differences in decisions between countries on things like this are usually due to differences in priorities. USA decisions for itself on such things are based on us collectively placing a higher priority on freedom and individualism than most or all other countries. And we know that that has it's costs. The costs aren't as high as the impression that our media puts out, but they exist. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I can understand your frustration with the media painting a less than accurate picture. That's a problem everywhere, I can assure you. But I guess what happens is that American news does spread around the world quickly, especially when innocent kids are killed, and people everywhere ask why. Non-Americans immediately notice the gun thing. It couldn't happen as easily elsewhere. And people care about kids dying. I don't think anyone would claim to have the perfect solution. There's always going to be people going off their brains. But fewer guns just looks like an obvious part of it when that's what the rest of the world has. That Americans don't care what the rest of the world thinks won't stop them thinking it. HiLo48 (talk) 04:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) Yeah, only Americans see gun crime as fixable with more guns...ツ Jenova20 10:02, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) To quote the NRA in a recent statement: "We will not allow law-abiding gun owners to be blamed for the acts of criminals and madmen." As a law-abiding, well-trained and responsible gun-owning American, I scoff at what members of disarmed (or nearly disarmed) societies say about my right to possess firearms. These governments took away or severely limited the rights of responsible private citizens to keep and bear firearms - but it won't happen here. Jus' sayin'. Doc talk 10:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
One more thing: that Piers Morgan fellow likes to point out that guns like the Bushmaster have no business being in the hands of citizens. These guns have no practical purpose. Wrong! In large areas of rural Texas, feral hogs (that were introduced by man) are a major problem. One of the best ways to control these dangerous and destructive pests is to shoot them from a helicopter. You can't do this with a single-shot musket for it to be effective. The media will never tell you about this, because naturally only crazed psychos would want to possess a magazine that holds more that 10 rounds. Doc talk 10:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest calling an exterminator then...Just like for a rat infestation...ツ Jenova20 11:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Don't need to. Heck, I could actually pay money to go to Texas and do it myself! It looks like fun, and it's helping correct our mistake for creating the problem. Having been trained by professionals, I understand how firearms work. Your average cop or soldier was just a private citizen at one time, with no special intrinsic "weapons genius" ability. Thankfully we can own guns legally in America without having to be military or law enforcement personnel. Doc talk 11:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Doc, have you read American exceptionalism? You seem to epitomise it. That's an observation, not a criticism. We wouldn't have the article if there weren't millions of adherents to the philosophy, so I'm just saying you're one of those millions. Perhaps more millions than there are people in my country. To me, your arguments aren't rational justification for keeping the kinds of weapons needed to control feral hogs in Texas in small towns in Connecticut. To you, they are. I'd just like to hope that before making absolute, aggressive statements in defence of such a position, you really have considered all that others say, and not just repeated NRA dogma. Statements like "but it won't happen here" aren't part of a discussion. That's a statement of rigid dogma. You chose to post here. (And you're welcome, of course.) But this is a Talk page, where we discuss stuff. Is your position flexible enough to do so? Discussion means listening. Statements like "but it won't happen here" aren't part of listening. HiLo48 (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
In some states like Texas and Colorado, one can own a belt-fed fully automatic machine gun like the M-60, provided they go through the proper legal channels. These weapons, even more dangerous than assault weapons, are never used in these senseless massacres. Why? Because most gun owners are responsible and stable individuals. The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban expired for a reason: it didn't actually solve anything. I appreciate the forum, and would be happy to represent the anti-gun control position anytime you'll have me. American exceptionalism is an interesting concept. I don't much care how other countries regulate their own gun rights, but when those goverments start telling us about our gun rights in our country, I get a little miffed. Sorry! Cheers :> Doc talk 02:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
You've got American exceptionalism down pat in that last sentence beginning "I don't much care how other countries..." You see, people in those other countries see and hear about all those innocent people dying, kids especially, and they care about that. You would presumably care about innocent kids dying elsewhere in the world too. Everyone has a moral right to express their concerns about it, and to make suggestions for avoiding it in the future. While you have every right to disagree, you cannot expect others to think you're being clever in so aggressively rejecting what they say. HiLo48 (talk) 02:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I own three firearms, including one "assault weapon" (an AK-47 variant) bought after the 1994 ban. They are all registered to me and I bought all of them legally in gun stores. And I don't play violent video games or read "horror comics" (which I believe are still banned in the U.K., but we realized in the 1950's that they were not the cause of juvenile delinquency). Even if a new assault weapons ban were introduced, the government can't make it illegal to own something that is currently legal to possess overnight: they can only ban the future import and sale of whatever weapons they ban next. See, the guns are already out there, in the hands of millions of citizens, just as they have been for decades - and we don't have Sandy Hook incidents on a daily basis. These tragedies are extremely rare, but the liberal media has a field day every time they happen. Each state has its own gun laws, and even the most restrictive (California) allows qualifying citizens to buy semi-automatic rifles and handguns that can hold no more than ten rounds of ammunition. With ten clips, you've got 100 rounds ready to go in the most restrictive state in the nation. We've lived with guns for centuries, and sick madmen murdering innocent children should not be the call to disarm our responsible citizens. Doc talk 02:57, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, one reason Australians feel they can speak with some confidence on this is that in Australia the government did "make it illegal to own something that is currently legal to possess overnight". Many styles of guns were declared illegal, and a massive (by our standards) gun buy-back was implemented. This occurred after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996 where 35 people were killed by one guy. It was done by a conservative government too. Since then, there have been no mass shootings in this country. And anyway, it's not just the mass shootings that count. Any shooting that isn't necessary is surely unwanted. HiLo48 (talk) 03:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Due to the nature of the state law system, and their right to govern themselves, such a sweeping Federal law is unlikely to pass here. In parts of Arizona you can walk down the street with a gun on your hip, and in Massachusetts you will go to prison for possessing a magazine that holds 30 rounds, with no gun or ammunition present. That same empty clip that will get you jail time can be mailed to your doorstep if you live in nearby Maine. Perhaps a sweeping law like what passed in your country could happen here, but in reality it will be a long and difficult road. Doc talk 03:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I can see that, although state laws were an issue in Australia too, but from memory the mood was so strong the states generally stepped in line with our federal government. But I suspect your Constitution might get in the way for while too. HiLo48 (talk) 04:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Guns are just one wacky thing states get to decide for themselves. Consider marijuana laws in the U.S. Possession of marijuana is illegal under our federal law, but each state decides what they want to do. In many states possession of under 1 oz. of marijuana is no longer a misdemeanor criminal offense, but in other states possession of any amount is punishable by up to a year in jail. The federal law is rarely enforced for some strange reason. America is a land of strange laws... Doc talk 04:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

HiLo48, just so that you know, my main motivation for posting here is that it is fun and interesting to have this discussion with you, not to try to convince. And from 9,000 miles away there are some things that are easy-to-misunderstand about the USA and I find it helpful=fun to try to provide an additional hopefully-reasonably-intelligent-perspective & info. Sincerley, North8000 (talk) 19:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I love the conversation too. A decent conversation is far more enjoyable than public policy driven by 20 to 30 sound bites on TV news. We have too much of that here already. HiLo48 (talk) 19:15, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of media statements, I have a puzzle for you.....how can all of the following statements be technically true?:

In the USA there are about:

  • 14,000 murders committed per year with guns
  • There are about 32,000 people per year "killed with a gun by a family member"
  • There are about 44,000 people per year "killed by gun violence"

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Are they all from the same source, at the same time? Anyway, for starters, murders are only a subset of people "killed with a gun". Many deaths from guns would be accidental or self-defence, etc. And those "killed with a gun by a family member" would be a subset of those "killed by gun violence" (by family and non-family members). Yeah, it can be explained. But is that what it means? HiLo48 (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
By far the largest number of deaths by guns in the USA are suicides. Like about 28,000 out of about 44,000. So when folks want to make the number of murders look larger, they use terminology that makes a suicide sound like a murder. If you kill yourself, that is technically violence committed against yourself. And since you are a family member of yourself, technically when you kill yourself you have been killed by a family member.  :-) North8000 (talk) 20:05, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't see that drawing lines between different kinds of death by gun helps all that much. Without guns, there wouldn't be death by guns at all. HiLo48 (talk) 20:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
On your first point, the persons doing the deceiving apparently feel otherwise. And I guess me too......IMHO suicides are very different than murders. Here suicides by railroad are popular..especially commuter lines. I guess making 50,000 people late for work / blow their commitments is a way to do it in style. (I think your bluntness moved over to me :-) ) On your second point, there no debating what it literally says. The debate would be over the course of action that it seems to imply.North8000 (talk) 14:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, sadly, suicide by commuter train is popular here too. And it really messes with the life of the train driver, an otherwise totally uninvolved party. An interesting claim I saw recently is that if someone is thwarted in their attempt to suicide using one method, they are unlikely to try another. HiLo48 (talk) 20:23, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm thinking that suicides are mostly when someone who is really "down" has a moment when they are down even lower, sometimes with drugs or alcohol piled on. So anything that would delay it would have some chance of that period passing. But even more so, "thwarted" means that someone else is now intervening, and somebody who now knows that they are suicidal. North8000 (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Maybe thwarted is the wrong word. A lot of attempted suicides are unsuccessful, maybe because of incompetence, or intervention after the fact - rushing a drug overdose patient to hospital, etc. That's what I was getting at. HiLo48 (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Victims of suicide use whatever is convenient or available to them or in some instances (like the commuter train) what they perceive will best accomplish their intention. Fewer women use a firearm as a means of suicide because fewer women own guns. This unfortunately has not stopped some individuals from walking into shooting ranges, renting a gun, buying a box of ammunition, and then using one round. This happened near me several years ago.
While I am in favor of reasonable gun laws and very much in favor of anti-violence laws and campaigns by law enforcement, blaming firearms for violence is like blaming sugar for cavities. Taking away guns will not prevent violence, people will find a way. Like was done in the Oklahoma City bombing of a federal building.
Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, there is a plan to install a $45 million suicide prevention net. Its a big famous bridge, but its just one of many. Where there's a will, there's a way.--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
My city's not so famous big bridge (yours is much more attractive) had high fences installed a couple of years ago to prevent suicides. It's worked for that location. No idea if anyone can tell whether those fences have had any impact on overall suicide rates for the city, but it stopped police and others potentially taking risks on the bridge to stop suicides.
Do be careful with the kind of language in your second paragraph. It's deflective language, arguing against things that opponents of guns don't actually say. And I'm pretty sure that in Australia the more restrictive laws on gun use and supervision at shooting ranges would largely (but not totally) prevent suicides there. I know it's a hard concept for many Americans to accept, but there are societies out there, and Australia is one, where owning, possessing and firing a gun is a very unusual thing, especially for ordinary city folk. And most Australians are city folk. Not trying to tell other people what to do. Just describing another scenario. HiLo48 (talk) 02:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
There's actually a name for the syndrome or phenomenon about Americans acceptance of guns, its part of the "John Wayne Mythos". Guns are an object of empowerment here and have been for over a century. Then again according to statistics I've heard since Sandy Hook, only about 1 in 10 or 20 own a gun here in the U.S., so owning, possessing and firing is somewhat unusual here too.
As for the deflective comment, its the point that the "gun owning non gun nuts" work to promote (at least how I think you mean that). Going after guns is "treating a symptom" of violence, not a cause. Drunk driving is a horrendous problem here in the U.S., but no one is attacking the alcohol industry because of it, why are guns such an easy scapegoat? I consider myself a responsible gun owner and regardless of the propaganda from the both the pro- and anti- gun sides, I'd like to keep doing my hobby (as a collector and shooter) without finding myself suddenly in violation of the latest knee-jerk reaction gun law. I hope I'm not being horribly obtuse... :)
Good to hear that your fence is working, I hope the city can find the money to get ours.--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 04:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
My point about the second para was the "blaming firearms for violence" bit. That's not what anti-gun campaigners do. Or I certainly don't. The simple point is that once violence is going to occur, the presence of a gun or guns makes the result inevitably worse. Just before the Sandy Hook shooting there was an idiot lost it at a school in China. Similar number of kids attacked. None were killed. The difference? He had a knife. No guns. So no, guns don't cause violence, but they make the results of violence worse. HiLo48 (talk) 04:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh goodness yes, I could not agree more with that statement and standpoint. Point taken about the knife nut in China. But "guns beget violence" is unfortunately the main (or only) message of many of the anti-gunners here in the U.S.--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Nah, they can't be that stupid. HiLo48 (talk) 06:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Indeed. The NRA says they heard they say. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
The people who say it aren't stupid, it is a clever tactic. Now, the people who believe it , that's a different story. In the USA if you can get gullible people to hypervenilate, stupidity can move mountains here. . Don't forget we're the country that did Prohibition (which launched the crime syndicate in the USA), Japanese internment, the McCarthy era, from the "war on drugs" police get to keep your car if they find a joint in it, from our "war on sex offenders" somebody who streaked in college has to register for life as a sex offender, and where our reaction to 911 cost us 100 times (in lifetimes of time vs. lives, and $) more than the event, including moving several notches towards a police state in response. North8000 (talk) 11:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Boy, I'm glad you said that, and not me. If I said it (and I have pointed out some of those facts in the past) I'd be and have been branded anti-American and be banned from certain topics here. You live in a diverse nation. HiLo48 (talk) 11:31, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Acknowledging mistakes (and understanding how the really unbelievable ones happened) is a helpful experience.

But on the flip side, (and on the gun topic above) where else could one have a state (or provincial) motto (statement of priorities) of "Live free or die". IMHO it's a cool place even with a huge list of flaws and problems. In relation to gun freedoms, the price to pay isn't "die" but (for a non-gangbanger) it is to endure a 1 in 100,000 chance per year of getting murdered by a firearm Also to endure a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying from a car wreck each year, and a 1 in 2000 chance of killed by a doctor error each year. North8000 (talk) 13:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh boy, North hit it on the head. Stupidity is the root of all evil, IMHO. Worse yet, it knows no limits.--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
American exceptionalism certainly explains the attitude. HiLo48, imagine you did not live in a society but in a Hobbesian world made up of selfish individuals. If you don't have money to protect you and cannot rely on government, then you get a gun, pray to God for protection or calm your nerves through prescription or illegal drugs. TFD (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I have heard the term "American exceptionalism" more in this talk page than I have in my entire life. On HiLo48's advice I read the Wiki article on it twice to try to figure out what it means. I found the article to be just an assemblage of about 10 widely varying things.....if there is any coherent meaning of the term I still don't know what it is. But in this thread I see to see the opposite. Specifically in the conversation between USA and country "B" why I see said or implied in the thread, conversation between USA and "Country B" person regarding gun freedoms:
  • USA person: "We like it how it is in the USA and think that such is best for us, and have no comment on how you should do it in country B"
  • "Country B: person. "We do it different in country B. You USA people just don't understand that you are wrong and that our way would be better for you."
Sounds like "Country B" exceptionalism to me!  :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:16, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
It's the theory that lacking a feudal past, American views fall within a narrow range that is more classically liberal and individualistic than other countries. It explains why Canada, which is otherwise similar to the U.S., has monarchy, appointed senators, a socialist opposition, respect for government, a developed welfare state, banks that didn't fail, state support for religious schools, a lower crime rate, no death penalty, stronger gun control, less crime, fewer prisoners but longer sentences for violent crime, censorhip, greater economic equality, laws against hate speech and a very weak religious right. It means that what works in the rest of the world may not work in the U.S. and vice versa. TFD (talk) 20:08, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


North - I hadn't heard of the formal concept of American exceptionalism until someone else here pointed it out to me as an explanation of why Americans are so sensitive about any criticism. I think it helps to explain things a bit. As for your suggestion that Americans think "We like it how it is in the USA and think that such is best for us, and have no comment on how you should do it in country B", have you heard of the expression "Yankee go home"? Ever wondered why it exists? Are you aware that the US has troops stationed in more than half the other countries in the world? (Well over 100 of them.) And that doesn't include the troops protecting US embassies. (Ever wondered why they're needed?) The US does tell other countries how to do things. Then there's the cultural imperialism. Generally unavoidable because of the massive size of the US economy and it's domination of world entertainment and media content. It means that American values and fashion become the values of cultures far removed from the US. This annoys some people in those other countries who despair over the loss of their individual cultures. Why do kids in African slums wear baseball/gangster hats backwards, when they really do need something to keep the sun out their eyes? And please don't tell me again that guns are OK because they don't kill as many people as cars and doctors. I have no idea of the accuracy of your numbers, but true or not, we should be aiming to reduce all of them. Now, combining a few of those things, the US's media made sure the rest of the world instantly heard about the innocent kids killed at Sandy Hook. The rest of the world cares about innocent kids dying, anywhere. I certainly do. We all like to think that such events could be prevented. Compassion forces us to say something. That's not telling Americans how to live their lives. That's caring. Artificial things like national borders should never get in the way of that. HiLo48 (talk) 20:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Special Barnstar
It's the very special LGBT Barnstar for the way you calmly handled the dispute with DarkGuardianVII on Talk:Homophobia. Congratulations and keep up the good work! ツ Jenova20 11:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)