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Revision as of 00:35, 16 May 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

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• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 1 (partly refactored)
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive_2
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive_3
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 4
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 5
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 6
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 7 (Archived all serious discussion concluded by Dec. 1, 2005 (with a tongue-in-cheek comment made Dec. 8, 2005 included as well...)
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 8
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 9
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 10
• Talk:Circumcision/Archive 11

Archived

I aggressively archived this page, including the most recent discussions, because it was simply unreadable (and because Berserker Ben asked :-). The most recent stuff is in Archive 11. Nandesuka 14:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Do Not Lie About What Citations Say

OK, I am now annoyed.

There's this thing. It's called a citation. A citation is a link to something that someone else has said. It turns out that when we at Misplaced Pages provide a link to something that someone else has said, our readers can sometimes use something called the "internet" to "click" on the link and read what we have cited. This is why it's really important that when we cite some third party source, and we describe what they say, we do so accurately, so that our readers don't get the impression that Misplaced Pages is full of things I like to call "lies" or "things we just made up because we felt like it."

My current example of this is this edit by TipPt, which removes the clause "benefits and" from the sentence where we cite this. So with this edit, Misplaced Pages says:

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommend that parents should be informed about 
the potential risks of the procedure.

While the paper linked to actually concludes:

Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn
male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine
neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential
benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being,
parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice,
parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and
be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision.

So basically, as near as I can tell, this is a case where an editor, because of his personal beliefs, has decided to link to a source while providing an abjectly dishonest summary of what that source says. This is completely unacceptable, and it must stop.

TipPt, if you have an explanation for this egregiously inappropriate behavior, I suggest you provide it now. And make it good. Nandesuka 14:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Nandesuka,

We are talking about the risks of complications article. Why do you insist on citing "benefit" again?

Here's the deal I may have struck with Jakew ... either we both get to address benefits (he using the AAP and I using the BMA ... which sheds doubt on the benefits) or neither do. The latter is best, so I remove "benefits" from risk article text. Or we do it your way, but balanced...

Here's what it becomes: The American Academy of Pediatrics recommend that parents should be informed about the potential benefits and risks of the procedure. The British Medical Association states “The medical benefits previously claimed, however, have not been convincingly proven, and it is now widely accepted, including by the BMA, that this surgical procedure has medical and psychological risks TipPt 15:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The section is on risks, not benefits. The quote from the BMA can be cut down to remove irrelevant detail without misrepresenting their position. The AAP's recommendation, however, refers to both, and removing one misrepresents their position. Jakew 16:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

PS, it's not in quotes, so it's not lying to remove a word.TipPt 15:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It does misrepresent, however, making them appear to have a different position than they actually do. Jakew 16:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The full BMA statement is one sentence. It is in context, pertinent, and balances the AAP statement. Cutting out half of that sentence, and leaving only the part you want (pro circ) misrepresents.TipPt 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you please explain to me how the words "it is now widely accepted, including by the BMA, that this surgical procedure has medical and psychological risks" can be construed as pro-circ? I'm genuinely mystified. Jakew 20:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Cutting out the first half of the sentence misrepresents the BMA postion, which works toward the pro-circ bias in this topic.TipPt 21:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

How does it misrepresent their position? Jakew 07:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

As with the American statement, risks are taken in context (with benefits). The BMA finds questionable benefits, and risks; The American both benefits and risks. Both perspectives help the reader understand the difficult nature of the research.

TipPt, I understand your dilemma here. You have a very important message you feel you need to get out. However, the reliable sources on the subject don't really agree with your position, and sometimes actually contradict it. However, the solution is not to misrepresent the sources, but rather to try to find other reliable sources which present other opinions. Jayjg 17:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

And you don't think the BMA is a reliable source? Very odd and biased. Note that their statement is more recent than the American association findings.

Again, it's you pro-circ guys that insist on citing "benefits" in the "risk" article, odd in itself, but biased when I try ... but fail because you guys delete it ... to include the full sentence from the British Medical Assoc.TipPt 00:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Address cultural ritual/health reasons

Through the ages, circumcision has been a cultural ritual. Medical applications may have changed things...

I'd like these sentences at the end of the second paragraph:

"Parental decisions regarding circumcision are dominated by cultural ritual considerations or religious beliefs, not by potential medical applications, though a 2001 study reported that "The most important reason to circumcise or not circumcise the child was health reasons." In two studies, strong parental cultural expectations clashed with deliberate informed consent, and “a significant number of parents in the studies mentioned expressed animosity toward the care provider.”

Jakew wanted Adler represented.TipPt 15:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

This is now self-contradictory. Either "Parental decisions regarding circumcision are dominated by cultural ritual considerations" is true or "The most important reason to circumcise or not circumcise the child was health reasons" is true. It is impossible for them both to be true.

Regardless, it does not belong in the introduction, because a) it is specific information about one of the 192+ countries in the world, b) the evidence is conflicting and introductions should be straightforward, and c) it is better discussed elsewhere in the article, such as in the 'since 1950' section where it is already mentioned. Jakew 15:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

We have several cites finding cultural ritural, including an AAP cite. Remember, this is a historically common human trait.

We have Adler finding "health reasons" 39.6% of the time. Stronger "Reasons Given for Decision" included "Mother's choice" at 59.7% or "Father's choice" at 49,7%. The questions that pick up ritual were "So child looks like father," "So child looks like his brothers, "So child looks like other kids."

That is why when you quote Adler, you should include the other listed potential answers to the question, so the reader knows the limited context.TipPt 21:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The questions were not mutually exclusive, Tip. The reason for the choice is independent of who makes the choice.

As for having several cites, it doesn't matter. You still cannot present it as fact when there is evidence to the contrary. Jakew 07:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The question asked for ONE answer from those choices listed. You present your cited facts, and I should be able (not blocked by you alone for pro-circ reasons) to present properly conducted research. Let the reader decide the better research.

You must know that the Adler metholology was horrible, and the survey simimplistic.TipPt 00:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

PS the Adler study is so poor, that it's evidence of your lack of good faith. Using that one study to refute several (reviewed) studies is biased.TipPt 00:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between circumcisions that are done because there is a valid medical indication, i.e. there is a medical condition present that requires surgery for treatment, and circumcisions that are done because the parents believe there are "health reasons". The number of circumcisions that are done to treat a medical condition that requires surgery for treatment is low. -- DanBlackham 04:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Both therapeutic and prophylactic circumcisions are done for health reasons, Dan. Jakew 07:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Image warning

I was wondering if a warning can be place on top of the page, something not to blatant but that describes that gratuities images are present on this page. I’m not asking for censorship (god forbid anyone censors anything on wikipedia) rather all I ask for is just a small, fair and specific warning on the top of the page. Something like this maybe:

This article contains pictures of human nudity, do not edit the article to censor images, see wikipedia disclaimer for detials.

--BerserkerBen 19:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I've proposed such things in the past myself, out of a desire to cut down on self-righteous blanking vandalism. I was informed that, in general, the Misplaced Pages Content Disclaimer handles all need for such warnings, and there is no requirement or onus upon editors to include any warnings whatsoever. On the other hand, such warnings could be interpreted as implicit support of the concept that such images are objectionable. Having considered this, I side with those who are against any warnings. The general disclaimer should suffice. Misplaced Pages shouldn't make any gesture to imply that it sides with those who find any particular image objectionable. Kasreyn 00:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ya who ever sees that disclaimer at the BOTTOM of the page in very small text? Apparently not enough considering how often those images in the past got edited. Ok ok the warning can be more neutral:

This article contains pictures of human genitals; discuss any edits to the images before editing. --BerserkerBen 03:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Kasreyn. No warnings are necessary, and would imply that there is something objectionable about the images. To explain why, consider the hypothetical case of a similar warning appearing in the radish article ("This article contains pictures of root vegetables; discuss any edits to the images before editing"). How would you, as a reader, take that? Would it not imply that Misplaced Pages, somewhat bizarrely, feels that there is something troubling - even offensive - about root vegetables? My point is that while someone might conceivably be offended by radishes, that (assuming that it occurs at all) is an individual matter, or perhaps of an individual culture. Like genitals, there is nothing inherently objectionable about them, and if we add warnings to everything that someone might conceivably be offended by, we will have little but warnings in this encyclopaedia.

Rant over. :) Jakew 09:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well if editing to the radish image happens because of it's controverisal nature (or any preception there of by editors/viewers) then yes I would want to place such a tag. Rather then add tags to what everyone conceivable object to, we add tags to what has been objected to, if not then we would have NPOV on every article, heck we would have just about every tag there is on every article! --BerserkerBen 11:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

What that results in is a Misplaced Pages that spends all its time bending over backwards for the most thin-skinned and easily offended amongst its readers. It's not really a reasonable standard to try to attain, because no matter how much we do, there can always be someone who comes along and claims to be even more easily offended, and then we have the same problem all over again. Offendedness is the product of a self-important mind, in my opinion. It's not our problem. Kasreyn 11:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we can put a threshold on how low the offense goes to warrant action, say for one it would take multiple editors to agree on such action. Your argument is again a slippery slope, if we bended backwards as such we would have a NPOV tag above every article (not to mention every other kind of tag), obviously we don't have enough "easily" offended readers for that fate to be happening. There can be legitimate reasons for offense rather then one’s personal beliefs: would you casually browse pornography on an educational facilities computer? What if you had no prior knowledge that a said link would take you to an image that could get you in trouble with the schools authorities?, I guess you could claim ignorance "hey I was just looking it up cause I didn't know what it meant" but now you look stupid and to those that don't beleive you, you look like a pervert. But hey maybe your right, its not our problem: there is already a disclaimer about how wiki articles can be factually inaccurate or bias, why do we need NPOV tags? --BerserkerBen 12:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Jake, why did you remove this?

"the medical benefits previously claimed, however, have not been convincingly proven,"

I'm very curious as it is a direct quote from the source. This article already gives a great deal of undue weight to American opinions of the procedure. I'd say what it needs is more non-American material for balance, not less. Kasreyn 00:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with including it somewhere, but the risks section is not an appropriate place for discussion of benefits. Jakew 07:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, so why do you insist on "benefits and risks" from the American Assoc? Looks like a double standard!TipPt 00:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

European circumcisions

Jake wrote, "In the UK and much of Europe, almost all circumcisions are performed for medical reasons." That is not accurate. In the Europe almost all circumcisions of children are done because the parents are Muslim or Jewish. In Europe circumcisions that are done to treat an existing medical condition are rare. -- DanBlackham 05:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, Dan, Jews and Muslims together represent about 3.1% of the population, but surveys indicate that 10-15% of young men are circumcised. Jakew 07:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Jakew, out of curiosity: what is the margin of error for those surveys? I'm assuming that the margins of error are included in the published texts, as is customary. I'd say if it's 5% or greater, the difference between the percentages becomes to slim to support the phrase "almost all". Kasreyn 10:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The 3.1% figure comes from UK census data, which is (in theory) a 100% sample, and is generally believed to be accurate. As for the other figure, it's my own summary of several studies. Unfortunately, I don't have the full text of all of them to hand, only summaries. One gives a 95% confidence interval of 9.0% to 15.2% for 16-19 year olds. Taking the low end of that range, there's roughly a 2:1 (5.9:3.1) ratio of medical to religious circumcisions. At the high end, it's roughly 4:1 (12.1:3.1). I was incorrect when I said 'almost all', but this is a clear majority. Jakew 11:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Strange edit

I've reverted Alienus' revert which, among other things, reintroduced some POV commentary about the BMA's statement, and inappropriately discussed the BMA's assessment of benefits in the risks section. Jakew 10:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Need more eyes on Circumcision advocacy

Jakew and I seem to be at something of an impasse on Circumcision advocacy, so it might be helpful if others got involved. Al 20:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm about to file another Rfc regarding the bias in the Topic ... you will find Jakew cleaver and obsessed.TipPt 00:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Jakew you keep putting in a misquote!

Here's the sentence Jakew insists on ... "Meatal stenosis has been reported in 0.9% to 20% of circumcised boys."

Here's my quote: Meatal stenosis may be the most common longer-term complication from circumcision, and is variously reported to occur in .9%,9% - 10%, ] and 7.29% of circumcised boys. ].

Jakew ... please read the citation, and you will find that 20% is for meatitis not meatal stenosis.

Second, the reader benefits from links to all three studies.

Here's the (neutral) full paragraph I would recommend: Meatal stenosis may be the most common longer-term complication from circumcision, and is variously reported to occur in .9%,9% - 10%, ] and 7.29% of circumcised boys. ]. The AAFP states : “One author(10) reports that meatitis, meatal ulcer and consequent stenosis occur in an estimated 8 to 31 percent of circumcised infants, while another(11) states there are no well-controlled cohort related studies to document their relation.” Meatotomy is the definitive curative treatment to resolve meatal stenosis, though recently home-dilation has been shown to be successful for most boys. TipPt 00:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Note that meatotomy (since that's what almost all doctors will currently do to treat meatal stenosis) becomes a complication of circumcision. Consider what you do Jakew ... a young man suffers from (generally painful) meatal stenosis and goes to the doctor ... having looked at Wiki to see what's up ... and gets a meatodomy instead of asking for dilation instructions.

You might fear hell.TipPt 00:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

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