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BLP issues at Anita Sarkeesian

As many of us know, the Anita Sarkeesian article has been a particularly sensitive BLP issue since the subject was the victim of a sustained harassment campaign last May. Mostly this has been handled through scrupulous patrolling, however one particular user, Niemti, continues to use the talk page in a manner inconsistent with BLP, the talk page guidelines, and general competence, and it needs to stop. Niemti, coming off a ban as HanzoHattori and currently the subject of an RFC/U about his behavior, dislikes Sarkeesian and feels the article is primarily about video games, entitling him to add negative material from video game blogs. Worse, for over two months, he has choked the talk page with incoherent rants that disparage the subject, circulate negative gossip, and derail any discussions about actual article improvements.
He has been warned about this various times, but won't or can't stop his disruption. Most recently he started a facepalm-inducing RM that's a pretty transparent attempt to shift the focus of the article in the hopes it will let him introduce negative material from video game blogs. He's spent the last three days bludgeoning any RM participant who disagrees with him (which, naturally, is every other editor) and going off on yet more disparaging tangents.
Enough's enough. It's clear Niemti can't participate at this article in any collaborative fashion. He needs to be banned from the article and its talk page - and any discussion of Anita Sarkeesian on Misplaced Pages. It's also time to look more comprehensively at the issues brought up at his RFC/U.--Cúchullain /c 16:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• I support Cúchullain's analysis of the situation. Classic case of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT that has gone on for far too long. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I can support/reinforce what Cuchullain is saying too. It's the same problems I come into every single time I interact with Niemti. (For the record, I rarely have actual personal conflicts with him, it's more that editors are always coming to WP:VG asking for help with dealing with him, a place where I frequently provide assistance.) He has ownership issues, and you can't hold a rationale discussion with him on talk pages. His responses are usually long confusing rants filled with condescending, saracastic remarks..

It's hard to recommend what to do though; as difficult and rude as he may be, he usually keeps within the bounds of blockable offenses. (He reverts people without explanation, but usually stays within 3RR. He's rude, but usually doesn't violate WP:NPA.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

In this case his strange gossip is clearly a BLP issue, and his refusal to get the point and talk page railroading is disruptive. He needs to be banned from all discussion involving Anita Sarkeesian. And please, someone close that disruptive RM.Cúchullain /c 18:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, let's make it formal. My proposal: Niemti is indefinitely banned from the Anita Sarkeesian article, its talk page, and any discussion of the subject on Misplaced Pages.Cúchullain /c 18:41, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Niemti's issues stretch beyond just this article as noted above, but if this works in halting some of his disruption I don't see the harm in supporting a ban. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• I also support Cuchullain's topic ban proposal and if this works in preventing some of his disruption, I do not see any problem with that per David Fuchs's comments on this situation. I agree with Cuchullain that it's perfectly clear that Niemti cannot participate in this article in a collaborative fashion and also that it's about time to look into the situation over at the user's RFC/U. This pattern of disruption is unacceptable. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I have to ask at this juncture whether anybody not editing from Sympathetic Point of View with Sarkeesian will be treated as part of a larger "harassment campaign" and blocked. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to comment on the actual situation here.Cúchullain /c 21:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Also note that the RM has been closed by TRPOD. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban. Drmies (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. Nobody is suggesting the AS article should be free of criticism or critique, merely that all such be cited from RS. The editor under discussion has long since passed the threshold of disruptiveness. BusterD (talk) 04:41, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. This editor has gone too far beyond constructive dialog and consensus-seeking and is way into disruptive territory, and clearly will not stop voluntarily. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• I agree wholeheartedly with a topic ban. Niemti hass shown time and time again to be incapable of separating passionate personal views on the matter from what is relevant to article content or talkpage discussion. As long as there is zero understanding and not even the mild intellectual sympathy of feminist media analysis in video games, Niemti's interaction with the topic will remain destructive. Peter 05:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support See also recent AN ban discussion, closed as no consensus. NE Ent 13:27, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - I went to the Anita Sarkeesian article and talk page expecting to see a woman-hating disruptive editor harassing other editors, based upon the description given above, but that's not what I saw. Many of the editors Niemti suggested did, in fact, advance the cause of NPOV policy. He has a clear view, but it's clear that certain editors are wikilawyering to prevent that view from being even mentioned in the article. When editors try to argue that an article about a woman known for criticizing video games for sexism has nothing to do with video games and therefore sources about videogames cannot be used in the article, that's crazy. When they try to prevent published criticism of the topic of the article by saying that the source is not reliable because it is a video game blog (video game blogs can be reliable) but allows a lot of primary sources and feminist blogs to be used as sources, that's not following WP:RS, that's cherry picking sources to use the article as a promotional piece advancing her views and her career. In my opinion Niemti is not any more guilty of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT than the editors currently their rejecting his input. Wiipedia editors are far too quick to try to block people over disagreements over views instead of actual behavior. This is just civil POV pushing. DreamGuy (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • All I can say is that regulars of WP:VG appear to have a thing or two to learn about critical analysis of references. Some of the nonsense sourcing (blogs, forums, fan databases, "quote references") that many video game articles get away with would never be tolerated in other fields. This is a perfect example of what happens when those standards are applied outside the somewhat sheltered views of gaming aficionados. Peter 03:42, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I can't stress enough that WikiProject Video Games does not call the source in question (Destructoid) "reliable". This is something that Niemti keeps on saying that simply isn't true. WP:VG classifies it as "situational", as it can only be used in rare instances, because sometimes their stories are picked up by more reliable sources, showing it's likely reliable/true information, yet Destructoid should ultimately get credited for being the source. There's no way that this is one of those scenarios where WP:VG would deem the source useable. So don't misdirect the issue here. Sergecross73 msg me 04:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Content matters aren't at issue here. The issue is Niemti's behavior, which has been totally disruptive to the article. Comments like this have no place anywhere on Misplaced Pages.Cúchullain /c 04:43, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I think this your diff shows exactly what we disagree about. In the diff, Niemti simply makes an argument that a person is not really notable. This may or may not be a correct argument (I would have to do my own research), but I do not see this at all as a BLP violation or a personal attack. I would never make such comment. However, if someone else made such comment in discussion with me, I would consider this comment as frank and straight to the point. My very best wishes (talk) 14:03, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't get it. Niemti has repeatedly attempted to insert his own favored POV into the article in obvious violation of WP:RS and without any understanding of the topic at hand. Niemti has plagued the talkpage with long-winded rants, general incivility and only two days ago a disingenuous attempt to move the article. He has time and time again shown that he is unwilling or incapable of listening to arguments or to respect consensus.

Are you trying to tell us that Niemti's behavior in this case has actually been helpful and constructive...?

Peter 15:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Wishes, again, this isn't about the content matters Niemti brings up, it's about his disruptive behavior. In that single edit, Niemti went, FORUM-style, on an irrelevant tangent about some other YouTuber, ignored previous warnings to stick to discussing article improvements, and claimed, with no backing or relevance whatsoever, that Sarkeesian engineered the trolling campaign in a "media-savy way" to "start a huge moral panic" in order to benefit financially from it. Oh, and he suggests she should have just rolled over for her harassers or "counter-attack literally using her vagina". Are you really suggesting this is appropriate and productive talk page discussion? And people wonder why few women edit Misplaced Pages.Cúchullain /c 16:36, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was probably an inappropriate statement, but a quote from elsewhere and about a different person. Still, I would advise Niemti should stay away of this page. As about women in the project, come on, they simply have more important things to do than waste their time here. My very best wishes (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

That kind of blasé comment does not alleviate any concerns, you know.

Peter 04:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I would not be so much concerned about this particular statement to bring the matter to ANI. My very best wishes (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

These examples are merely to show that Niemti refuses to take feminists like Sarkeesian seriously. This is about campaigning for months to skew the article to fit his own personal preferences, and for choking the talkpage in the process. Peter 06:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

If the comment were isolated it would not be a matter for ANI. However, it's part of a pattern of similar negative and unsourced comments about a BLP along with various other disruptive behaviors that have continued for over two months.Cúchullain /c 14:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. I still do not think that any statement by Niemti provided in the diffs above (on the article talk page) represents a clear-cut BLP violation. However, I would strongly advise Niemti to voluntarily stop editing this page, stop commenting about this person and make a clear statement about this here. My very best wishes (talk) 18:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Per my comments above. Sergecross73 msg me 21:11, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Neutral agree with DreamGuy. While Niemti's view may be unpopular, I don't see any blatant BLP issues by him in the discussion. Note also that TRPoD's closure of discussion was not appropriate, as he has already voiced his opinion in the discussion with comments, he has a conflict of interest and should not close the move discussion. As I'm not a participant in the actual discussion, however, I'll just go with neutral !vote. Still waiting for Niemti's statement, though... Satellizer 23:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)I've decided to remove my !vote per the comments responding to this and other comments; I thus have no opinion on this issue.Satellizer (talk) 00:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Indeed, I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I'm not as much bothered by the BLP problem as much as that there's clear consensus against what he's trying to do, and yet time and time again he wastes editors time with his incoherent rants and attitude, and has even made comments that seem to suggest he's going to just go against consensus once editors lose interest in the topic. Sergecross73 msg me 00:28, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • You may be neutral in your vote, but you're definitely not neutral in your commentary. It's not a matter of unpopularity. This is a classic example of "Experts are scum" in my view, something which I thought was rather rare on Misplaced Pages these days. The views Niemti is trying to push so obstinately are about as relevant as the views of an oil lobbyist in a debate about global warming. Gender studies may not be as "hard" a science as climatology, but it sure as hell is more absolute than the opinionated and uninformed editorials of video game reviewers. Peter 03:54, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
    • If a source is reliable, it's reliable. Your comments here suggest that you don't think games journalists can be considered reliable for a game-related topic, which seems pretty absurd. Niemti might not be a productive Wikipedian but your attitude is not helpful either. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
      • It's really simple. Hot Rod Magazine might be a reliable source when it comes to the topic of cars, however it is not a reliable source for the theory of relativity...even if the theory of relativity is applied to cars. Similarly, game journalists might be reliable sources for games, however they are not reliable sources for cultural studies/women's studies/etc...even if those things are applied to games--which is what's going on in this instance. So no, a reliable source for one topic isn't a reliable source for another topic. As mentioned above, failing to get this point (WP:RS) is one of the problems. DonQuixote (talk) 01:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)Comment. Clearly I believe that taken as a whole, Niemti's rantings, many of which just introduce unsourced gossip, disparaging innuendo, and personal gripes about Sarkeesian and her motivations, constitute a BLP issue. But even if you disagree on that point, there's still the matter that his repeated violations of WP:NOTAFORUM and the WP:TPG, his unwillingness to get on track despite numerous warnings, and his bludgeoning of editors who disagree with him. This is patently disruptive and it needs to stop.Cúchullain /c 00:35, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • My thoughts, exactly. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:09, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per DreamGuy. 5.12.84.224 (talk) 02:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose as my analysis mirrored DreamGuy's --Nouniquenames 03:58, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Support in agreement with comments by Cuchullain and Sergecross. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 08:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Niemti is an excellent editor when working alone on uncontroversial subjects, but terrible at working with others. He is unable to make even the slightest concession to other editors and becomes demanding, patronising and sarcastic almost immediatly upon sighting an alternate point of view. This issue is not about what the Sarkeesian article should look like, but the way he goes about the discussion, which is wholly inappropriate and completely disruptive to civil, useful discussion. Euchrid (talk) 21:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• First, and foremost, I'd like to start of by saying that I do not consider Niemti to be sexist, at all. The arguments sighted on the article's talk page stem more from a disagreement about the source of Sarkeesian's notability than any misogynist sentiments on his part. Nevertheless, the concern is that he is using said talk page as a platform to express his opinions (or as he may call them, "facts" — of the variety that cannot be adequately verified by any third-party sources) regarding the subject, and specifically the reasons in which she is considered significant enough to have a biography on Misplaced Pages; it delves into BLP-violating territory when he says that her fame mostly comes from the harassment campaign levied against her, which cannot possibly be substantiated in the article. It's hard to really get a good sense of what he's trying to accomplish in his contributions there, and it's unfortunately stirred up a great deal of ill will among the participants. Therefore, I'll have to echo the sentiments of My very best wishes in suggesting that Niemti disengages from the topic altogether, precluding the need for an actual community sanction. I think he would find much more satisfaction in editing other topics of interest than from continuing to beat this particular dead horse. Kurtis 22:05, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Echoing DaveFuchs and NE Ent, as I see it there's already consensus that Niemti should not be editing video game articles at all. bridies (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• I came from my weekend and I see what. You "should not be editing video game articles at all", too, but also maybe first decide if this is a video game article or not (allegedly it sin't). The article is also using Kotaku, which is a very unprofessional video game tabloid blog (as noted by the acclaimed game director Hideki Kamiya). And you know what's "disruptive"? Not allowing a discussion on talk page, replying with "fucking deal" and such, doing things like this thread. Bye. --Niemti (talk) 18:39, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, amd also I just though about it, and this single-event article should be merged into something like "Women and video gaming controversies" (or some better name, it was quick). Which would also cover the professional gamer Miranda Pakozdi, the game writer Jennifer Hepler, and so on (who all have no articles on Misplaced Pages, despite being widely reported, too, including in the mainstream press, and often in the very same articles as Sarkeesian - just google them and you'll see). --Niemti (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. That's a fine example of the incoherent, attitude riddled rantings you tend to muddle discussions with. Sergecross73 msg me 19:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome, also not. --Niemti (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

This is just an attempt to midirect attention away from your disruptive behavior and towards abstract content issues. That's not going to fly.Cúchullain /c 20:48, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• Niemti shows no sign of relenting either here or at Sarkeesian's talkpage. He's even calling WP:VG/RS "a joke". And then there's the deeply offensive suggestion that women are by themselves video game controversies. Topic ban now, please. Peter 20:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• The discussion has been going on for just a few days. As an uninvolved admin, in my view it would be premature to close it.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if it's time to move forward with this proposal yet, but Niemti's recent spate of commentary contains more of the same problematic behavior and suggests he has no intention of changing.Cúchullain /c 20:48, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Because treating Kotaku (a source of such fine "journalism" as this or that) an unconditionally reliable source surely must be a joke. Anyway, I'm done hopelessly trying to initiate a proper (with arguments and counter-arguments, instead of abuse and bullying that I'm getting from you) discussion on the changes with the article (the article that I've previously edited more than anyone else). See you at AfD in time. --Niemti (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and (of course) I never made a "deeply offensive suggestion that women are by themselves video game controversies", and with this bizarrily absurd comment you've just got a taste of what's going on at this talk page. Now I'm unwatching it, like I just unwatched this article, after being central in building it up. --Niemti (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

An AfD right after a unanimously opposed RM. We can add WP:FORUMSHOPPING to the list of disruptive behaviors.Cúchullain /c 22:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Enough about Kotaku. If you don't like that there's a consensus that it's reliable, start a discussion at WP:VG to change it. The issue at hand here is the edits you're trying to make to this article, and how you handle yourself on the talk page. Neither of those things have anything to do with Kotaku's status of reliability, so it's irrelevant to discuss here. Sergecross73 msg me 00:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support narrow topic ban -- it's way past the question of right/wrong or POV. Niemti is being moderately rude (which is hardly unusual) and has shown that he is unable to discuss politely and constructively about, at the very least, this specific topic. This isn't "improving Misplaced Pages" in the slightest, and that should be everyone's main goal. There's no reason to allow this to further devolve into something even worse and there's plenty of other articles that can be improved. Salvidrim! ✉ 00:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban The problem is evident, even on this page. Johnuniq (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban - My conclusion after having read the various points put forth by editors here and at the RM is that a topic ban is appropriate in this situation. Cabe6403 10:28, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose per DreamGuy. And frankly I find the comments by User:TheRedPenOfDoom ("get over it" and "get a on with your life!") and even those by Cúchullain (in the way he describes Niemti's comments - which appear to be civil and reasonable - as "he has choked the talk page with incoherent rants") to be way more uncivil and sanction worthy than anything Niemti has said or done.Volunteer Marek 20:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I highly suggest you take a look at the related RfC and see that RedPen and Cúchullain's comments, while not necessarily excusable, are small potatoes to the majority of Niemti's reported behavior. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 20:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't accept that any of my comments, or Red's for that matter, have been uncivil, though I'll gladly tone it down in the future if it takes some edge off the discussion. It also bears reiteration that no one else in the discussion has made unfounded or inappropriate comments about the subject, gone off on tangents irrelevant to actual article improvements, refused to hear it when consensus is against them, or engaged in forum shopping when they don't get their way. That's the issue here; it's not one problem, it's a pattern of behavior.Cúchullain /c 21:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I certainly don't believe calling someone's responses "incoherent rants" is uncivil, especially in Niemti's case, where he almost seems to do it on purpose, or uncontrollably. In calmer past situations, I've kindly asked him to slow down and address issues one by one or with more concise responses, because I couldn't understand what he was trying to say, and he simply wouldn't. He's been told he's hard to understand when he responds like this, and he does it anyways, and yet isn't above complaining when no one sides with him. It's not an attack on him, it's merely an observation on how he handles himself. Sergecross73 msg me 23:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per DreamGuy. I reviewed the diffs as well, and I see a lot of hair pulling over Niemti's responses, some of it uncivil, but nothing worthy of Niemti being TB'ed. Perhaps some new eyes whose owners blood pressure is 120/80 might be helpful at the talk page.  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  21:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I echo the sentiments of ThomasO1989 and suggest that you take a look at the related RfC about his reported behavioral patterns. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:58, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I count at least thirteen users, including myself, who have tried to debate Niemti regarding Sarkeesian, a few with a bit more intensity than roughness than necessary, but most of them have engaged with him in a civilized manner. If you want to see a particularly frustrating example of how Niemti has operated, take a look at Talk:Anita Sarkeesian/Archive 2#Dubious. Fifteen posts in 24 hours just in an attempt to hammer home his own views about what "university-level women's studies courses" means. And that's just one of the early ones from back in November. Peter 06:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. I think this is the situation when someone (Niemti) actually does a lot for the project, but he is stubborn, strongly opinionated at article talk pages, and he tells exactly what he thinks. However, the info he actually places in articles is good and comply with NPOV. What I did in such cases is allowing the editor (Niemti) to take a lead with creating the content, and discussing only as much as necessary. He suggests merging at article talk page? That's fine. Simply tell "no" and explain why. No need for a long discussion. He proposes and AfD? That's fine. Just vote "keep" and explain why. Hence my "oppose" above. My very best wishes (talk) 14:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Niemti is clearly driven by a personal disagreement with the basic tenets of gender studies and critical feminist analysis. And all because someone had the nerve to aim it at his favorite form of popular culture, video games. He's certainly not alone in this, and while he's not the kind of person who is sending death threats and anonymous misogynist abuse, his rants has an openly anti-feminist edge that equates analysis of gender roles with extremism and a host of other prejudices about academic media studies. In other words, you're suggesting that he be allowed to engage in activities that don't have anything to do with article improvement. Why exactly should we humor him, or anyone else, in that respect? Peter 15:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    • It was precisely my point that most of his mainspace edits are actually improvement of content (they have everything to do with article improvement), as evident from his successful participation in creation of good articles and his edits in another subject area where I collaborated with him a few years ago. As about rants at article talk pages (if any), it always takes two or more to tango. Tell and justify your opinion one time if this is something like RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 16:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
      • We're discussing a topic ban relating to the Sarkeesian article. Niemti's participation there has been extremely negative with little or no improvement. And the RfC suggests there's been disharmonious dealings in the GA process concerning video game articles. So no matter how many good edits there are elsewhere, they don't simply cancel out the looong sting of bad ones relating to feminist media criticism. I'm not sure what you feel you want justified, btw. Can you be more precise? Peter 19:08, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Again, the quality of Niemti's article work, or any other content matter, isn't at issue here. The problem is his behavior at the talk page, which has been consistently disruptive on multiple fronts.Cúchullain /c 14:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. It is my understanding that Niemti voluntarily will not edit article about AS and its talk page . I also assume that he will not edit anything about AS on other pages. I hope this thread can be closed. My very best wishes (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • His voluntary withdrawal can be revoked whenever he wants, a community topic ban can't. If he'd volunteered to do that at the start it would be different, but effectively cancelling consensus already established for a community topic ban with something voluntary he can choose to cancel at any time (and thus forcing the ban consensus to start again from scratch) seems a little too much like gaming the system. – NULL ‹talk›
    ‹edits› 01:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I thought consensus is not determined by head count, but by the quality of argument. So, I am not sure if we have consensus. No, I do not think anyone can revoke their promise. My very best wishes (talk) 01:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
      • I am, of course, making my own evaluation of consensus in my comment above, based on the quality of the arguments presented. Whoever eventually closes the thread will make their own evaluation. My point, however, was that it's easy for someone looking at consensus for a ban to make a last minute act of apparent concession to try to mitigate the inevitable outcome. Offering to cooperate at the eleventh hour can easily be seen as a 'save your own hide' kind of thing, and doesn't mean the community automatically accepts that the ban is no longer necessary. Some people may not have faith that he'll be able to abide by it, particularly given his history. – NULL ‹talk›
        ‹edits› 02:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It is pretty common that people on the verge of being banned/topic banned to suddenly volunteer to stop, but as Null said, it's not reason to stop this process, as he can chose to change his mind at any point, where it's not the case with a topic ban. I think it's especially important not to stop this discussion based on past comments Niemti has said. On the talk page, he has alluded to the fact that he may wait until things die down and go at it again, and that he believes since he edits the article more than anyone else in the discussion, his opinion counts for more. Sergecross73 msg me 13:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not particularly inclined to take Niemti at his word, considering his lack of regard for other editors' input over the last two months. However, the bottom line is that he shouldn't touch anything related to Sarkeesian on Misplaced Pages, voluntarily or otherwise.Cúchullain /c 14:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I am also not inclined to take Niemti's word for it, given his history of rejecting other editors' input over the past two months per Cuchullain. Per Sergecross, Niemti alluded to the fact that he might go at it again when things die down. The bottom line is that the editor should not touch the Sarkeesian article or anything related to her on Misplaced Pages, voluntarily or not. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

By telling this, you guys basically reject his good will offer. If you tell to Neimti that he has absolutely no obligation to keep his word, may be he indeed has no such obligation. I am now confused. My very best wishes (talk) 19:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be more persuasive if Niemti said explicitly that he would avoid editing or commenting on the subject in the future. The linked comment says no such thing.Cúchullain /c 20:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not telling that coming forward and criticizing himself in this environment is exactly like Struggle session (or "Comrade's court" in Russia), but in certain ethnic/national cultures this is something man would never do. My very best wishes (talk) 14:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. This whole BLP thing is terribly overblown. What Niemti actually suggested was to merge or delete the article. That certainly would not hurt the person. Banning a long term well-intended contributor because of this is over the top. My very best wishes (talk) 13:32, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The "BLP thing" is certainly an issue, and one of Niemti's making. Taken together, his disparaging and unsourced comments about the subject form a pattern of behavior that shouldn't be acceptable on Misplaced Pages (and of course that's on top of all his other disruptive behaviors).Cúchullain /c 14:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I did not read whole discussion (tl;dr, sorry), but in the most "incriminating" diff above Noemti simply explains why he thinks the person is not notable (hence the suggested merging of page). Yes, he uses available sources to explain his position. Some of them may not be reliable, but this is always happens in articles about people of marginal notability. As about his tone, this is a matter of personal taste. It is pretty common that people are excited during such discussions. Bringing everyone here is not an option. My very best wishes (talk) 19:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't regard that as the "most incriminating" diff, it's just particularly illustrative of the various disruptive behaviors in which he's engaged. Honestly, his tone is the least of it - it's far more serious that he's making unsourced negative comments on a BLP, using the talk page as a FORUM, ignoring the input of others, and engaging in forum shopping to get his way.Cúchullain /c 20:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

"Some"? None of the sources are reliable. The topic is gender studies, not video game reviewing. Period. The opinions of the gaming community at large is not our concern anymore than John/Jane Doe's kitchen conversations about... whatever. The only major difference between these two is that the gaming community is good at loudly proclaiming its disapproval in online forums. That does not make those loud claims relevant or reliable to Misplaced Pages as sources. Why is this so hard to accept? Why does a dozen or more users have to spend week after week saying the same thing to the same argumentative person?

Peter 07:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

No, the subject is not gender study, but biography. Niemti makes an argument that person is not notable. I personally disagree with his argument, but it is very common that people stray away in such discussions or make an argument unsupported by RS. Bringing them here is counterproductive if the person acts in a good faith and contributes a lot to the project, as in this case. This is because our goal is to maximize participation, editor retention and ultimately creation of content. My very best wishes (talk) 14:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The topic of any "criticism" should be the same as the work that is being criticised. As such, trying to introduce any sort of criticism in this article involves gender studies. Thus, in relation to what constitutes a reliable source, as Peter correctly states above, the topic is gender studies and not video game reviewing. DonQuixote (talk) 03:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Stongly oppose topic ban: As an uninvolved editor, I think it is premature IMHO to go directly to an indef topic ban (without even suggesting 3-month ban), which smacks of forever silencing an opponent in a wp:POV_dispute. Meanwhile, the use of non-wp:RS sources, as mentioned above, indicates that all sides of the dispute should request mediation to use sourced text, or perhaps merge the article for lack of sources which sustain a separate page. Also, should disregard "Support" !votes from involved editors, as this seems an atttempt to force the outcome of a "fair fight" by censuring opponents. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • If Niemti was an outspoken creationist who engaged in destructive campaigns for months in an article about evolution, would you also describe a call for a topic ban as "forever silencing an opponent"? Peter 15:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Once again, content issues aren't up for discussion here. This proposal is about Niemti's behavior on the talk page, examples of which are highlighted above.Cúchullain /c 15:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, it should be made clear that making positive contributions is never an excuse for disruptive behavior, especially on the talk page of Anita Sarkeesian; the examples of which are shown above are all there, clear as crystal. As explicitly stated by Cuchullain, Niemti's disparaging and unsourced comments about the subject form a pattern of disruptive behavior, which is not acceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages. And unfortunately, his disruption is part of a pattern of similar negative and unsourced comments about a BLP along with various other disruptive behaviors that have continued for over two months. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support, although, I have no problem with making the topic ban time limited. The fact that after all of this discussion, including Niemti's own participation in, that Niemti now thinks that AfD is the right treatment shows that he is only here to POV push. The civility of the comments is wholly irrelevant; WP:CIVIL is only one of our pillars, and WP:NPOV is another. Niemti has argued tendentiously to include comments from a source that clearly does not meet WP:RS and certainly doesn't meet the higher level of scrutiny required by WP:BLP. Now, because he's not getting his way, he thinks he'll take to it to AfD, despite the fact that such a nomination would be WP:SNOW kept. Civil POV pushing is, in fact, one of our biggest problems on Misplaced Pages. Here we have a crystal clear example of it happening, and thus we should take the opportunity to stop it, now. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:00, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

What AfD are you talking about? Niemti said he would rather not edit this article at all . My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef topic ban. Let's not mess around with BLPs, especially one like this that has already been vandalised to the extent that the vandalism hit the news. WP:BLPBAN exists for a reason. Andreas JN466 09:25, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, this page has been vandalized at one point, just as many other wikipedia articles, but why do you want to hold Niemti responsible? It was not him who vandalized this page. To the conrary, he contributed a lot and positively in this BLP article (I mean the article itself, while the talk page discussion was indeed heated and sometimes strayed away from improvement the article). Once again, he only suggested merging sometime ago, which has been hotly debated. This is not vandalism, not a BLP violation, and certainly does not hurt the person. My very best wishes (talk) 14:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

What I am holding him responsible for is waffling on on a BLP talk page about how the subject should have "ignored" the appalling harassment she suffered, including here, or done things like "counterattack literally with her vagina". Get a grip. Andreas JN466 19:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

He was comparing and contrasting how other people responded to very similar experiences to how Sarkeesian reacted when discussing whether there should be an article about her. Another woman who was attacked in a very similar fashion did "counter-attack with her vagina" in a manner of speaking and others do ignore this type of vitriol as it is rather typical.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

In a manner of highly inept and inappropriate speaking, perhaps. Saying here on Misplaced Pages that a woman who has been harassed, including here on Misplaced Pages, could have ignored it or "counter-attacked literally using her vagina" instead of raising a "huge moral panic" is certainly considerably more inept and inappropriate than Misplaced Pages should tolerate. Andreas JN466 19:51, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

You can repeat this until you are blue in the face, but it won't change a thing. His statements, in context, are far less serious than how they are being portrayed out of context. For the context, I ask people to simply google "Jennifer Hepler vagina" to understand that comment. At best you can fault him for using "literally" as an emphatic.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

This is difficult for me to judge since I came from another language and culture. I saw one of these shows on US TV performed by a women, so I have to assume such language is permissible in US culture. My very best wishes (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Trust me, you do not tell a woman who has suffered sexually motivated cyber harassment that she could have "ignored it", or "counterattacked using her vagina", not unless you are socially completely inept or worse. The West is stil on the same planet as the East, you know. Harassment is considered a problem in both places. Perhaps Misplaced Pages is an exception. Andreas JN466 01:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Andreas, I understand where your frustrations are coming from. This article is a sensitive BLP that has been the target of harassment last May. And as I have stated, positive contributions is never an excuse for disruptive behavior on the talk page, which has been clearly pointed out by Cuchullain. Trying to introduce any sort of criticism in this article involves gender studies. As such, in relation to what constitutes a reliable source, the topic is gender studies and not video game reviewing. Unfortunately, the quality of Niemti's work or any other content matter, is not at issue here. The problem is with his seriously disruptive behavior at the talk page, where Niemti has making unsourced negative comments on a BLP, using the talk page as a FORUM, ignoring the input of others, and engaging in forum shopping to get his way while he is currently the subject of an RFC. He was also adding comments from a source, Destructoid, that clearly does not meet WP:RS and certainly doesn't meet the higher level of scrutiny required by the BLP policy. On top of that, his sources have all sorts of issues in regards to WP:RS, WP:VG/RS, and WP:NPOV and they should not be used. No thanks, we don't want this type of disruptive behavior here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. On top of that he has made three times more edits to her talk page than anybody else ... way to go. Andreas JN466 01:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• If that was indeed a contentious unsourced material about a living person (I am still not sure that it was), why did not anyone just removed immediately this thing from article talk page, as should be done per policy, instead of bringing this here? End of story. That's why some part of this looks to me as WP:Battle. My very best wishes (talk) 04:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I actually though about entirely removing some of the threads that Niemti engaged in, but that's surrounded by multiple restrictions (see WP:TPOC). It would most likely only have provoked Niemti, and it would likely have been considered too high-handed even by unsympathetic editors. And there was the occasional glimmer of something semi-relevant in Niemti's talkpage activities, which complicated issues even if it was ultimately overshadowed by the unbearable amounts of opinionated ranting and disparaging commentary about the article subject.

Peter 16:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Give me a break. Nothing he said is over the line. He was disputing the notability of Sarkeesian as a biographical subject. Her reaction to harassment does appear to be the main source of her notability and that arising due to her video series so his is a reasonable position to take. Suggesting that it should not be a bio, but an article on her experience or video series is rather reasonable.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban, support making this a strong shot above the bow. This is a sensitive BLP, there seems to be a lot of jealousy between the editor and the subject, the criticism on the talk page comes close to rising to the level of inappropriate discourse. Slowly back away from the cliff, my friend... Carrite (talk) 20:04, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Per Andreas, below. Oppose for now. I'm half-way through the talk page archive and, though his suggestion she should have ignored the flaming is stupid and patronising, he has removed unsourced puffery about her work being used in "university-level women's studies courses" against significant opposition, and removed the claim she is best known for her video blog Feminist Frequency, both of which are significant improvements. Claims that he breaches WP:NOTAFORUM, at least as they relate to comments he's made in the first half of the archive, are mistaken. Editors on the page didn't get the pertinence of the points he was making. Perhaps he reels out of control further down the archive but I've seen no evidence of that in this thread. I have to go out now and will comment further when I get a chance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:17, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Note that her work is indeed used in "university-level women's study courses". Source: . Examples: , , , , , , , (for this course). Note that the last one for example is from 2011, predating her harassment. Would you accept these as evidence that her work is so used, and that it is her work that is considered of interest by these universities, rather than merely the fact that she was trolled? Andreas JN466 10:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks for proving me to be a superficial fool yet again. :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't mention it, Anthony. :) Best, Andreas JN466 11:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Quite obviously, Neimti was not logical in his argument. That's why I noted above that I disagree with him. However, this is not a reason for topic ban in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Close discussion?

The above discussion has been lasting for over a week as I post here. While I still support the topic ban, I have posted a request at WP:ANRFC for an uninvolved administrator to assess and close this discussion. Furthermore, while almost all of the recent Sarkeesian discussions have been archived at Talk:Anita Sarkeesian/Archive 2, I would suggest that everyone should take a deep breath, relax, and wait for the closing admin. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

You promised to one of admins not follow edits by Niemty, do not you remember? My very best wishes (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, I do not care about that anymore, as I have already moved on and that case against me was not substantiated. I am still waiting for the closing administrator to assess and close the above discussion. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As long as people keep on bringing up issues regarding Niemti to ANI, RFC, or WP:VG, or with Niemti bringing attention to himself with going to WP:RM, you can hardly accuse Sjones of "following his edits". If only Niemti wasn't constantly making a scene or stirring up trouble in our field of editing. Sergecross73 msg me 15:41, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I see that you guys have lot of common interests, including many user talk pages and even Organ theft in Kosovo... My very best wishes (talk) 18:49, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

(sigh)... Really, I would rather put this off-topic discussion to rest, as this is seriously getting us nowhere fast. We are talking about a topic ban proposal. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

MVBW, if you have an issue regarding Sjone's behavior, bring it to his talk page, or open up a new ANI report. It doesn't belong in this discussion. Sergecross73 msg me 20:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I know how you feel Serge. I just don't want to discuss this issue anymore and I have already moved on. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

No, that's fine, I'm not saying you should have to, I'm just saying that if MVBW wants to discuss it, this isn't the place to do so. (If he does choose a better avenue, you can still opt out of discussing it with him all the same.) Sergecross73 msg me 21:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I see. If I don't want to discuss this matter, that is completely my decision. Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I only wanted to tell that I agree with comment by User:Wikid77 above. He suggested to disregard all "Support" "!votes from involved editors, as this seems an attempt to force the outcome of a "fair fight" by censuring opponents." (see above). My very best wishes (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As it has been stated numerous times in this thread (by myself and others), the quality of Niemti's work or any other content matter, is not the case here. The actual issue is with his disruptive behavior on Sarkeesian's talk page, and we cannot allow this disruption to continue. On the talk page, it is clear enough that there are serious issues going on. While it is clear that the number of upset people is at least in the tens; it could be unclear if that might represent a consensus across those who pay attention to these matters. With this in mind, I would like to request that previously uninvolved editors and administrators get involved and read up on this and comment, as well as to take a look at Talk:Anita Sarkeesian/Archive 2 and the ongoing RFC. I think this discussion needs more input from other users, and we can't allow this discussion to go on for another week, since we need a clear consensus on this matter from both involved and uninvolved users. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Brocach ignoring discussions and blocks for POV-pushing: time for topic ban

User:Brocach (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is making war around Gaelic Athletic Association-related articles. He is ignoring discussion, just to push his own POV. There is no effective support for his moves but he just invents excuses. By now he seems so frustrated, that he started vandalising articles. On the 19th, he was blocked from editing to stop him from edit warring over several article. In that same war User:Laurel Lodged (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) was involved and blocked. They were involved in one of the most silly edits wars I have ever seen: Talk:Paudie Butler#What on earth are you fighting over?. Especially because Laurel Lodged was clearly right and Brocach clearly wrong. Both appealed the ban, both saw their appeal denied. Unfortunately, Brocach did not learn anything from his block and quickly resumed his disruptive edits and went on with, among others, a clear declaration of war.

An overview from the relevant edits after the block:

Insults

• ,

Move without agreement or consensus

• , , ,

Changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories

• ,

Other disruptive edits

• , , (later used to claim that people did not live in North Tipperary, while it was de facto there from 1838), , ,

This drama is already going on for a year now. With pages moved back and forth, edit wars and a very nasty atmosphere.

I certainly acknowledge that a block is counter-productive but to restore peace, I request a long term topic ban for Brocach for all articles related to the Gaelic Athletic Association. The Banner talk 02:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

And now, as a kind of sidekick, User:Finnegas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has started changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories (like , , , , , , , , , and . That I named it work as a sidekick is due to the fact that Finnegas has the explicit support of Brocach... The Banner talk 03:17, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Due to Brocachs habit to remove everything from his talkpage that he doesn't like, I present here the proof that I have informed him. The Banner talk 03:21, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Quite a lot of accusations there so it will take some time to respond.

I have never vandalised any article on Misplaced Pages. Anyone who looks at my edit history will find a long record of reverting vandalism. Some examples: , , , , , , and on and on.

I am not ignoring discussion. In relation to the GAA articles, most of the edits that User:The Banner (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) objects to are actually reverts of previous controversial edits, generally made by User:Laurel Lodged (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) without discussion, and generally moving articles about the GAA away from the common name of the topic - typically, renaming football competitions by inserting "GAA" within the competition name. Generally when I have moved things back to their common name, I have opened a thread on the talk page.

The POV I am "pushing" is Misplaced Pages policy: WP:COMMONNAME. Nothing particularly controversial about that.

It is absolutely not the case that there is no support for my reverts of controversial moves. In the most recent discussion of this, here, you will see clear majority support for the reverts. That in itself should be enough to establish that the topic ban belongs with the editor who made the original controversial moves without discussion, and then busted a gut trying to undo all the reverts, namely Laurel Lodged.

Turning to the Tipperary question: for those unfamiliar with the sports, Gaelic football, hurling etc. are organised in Ireland on a traditional 32-county basis, not in line with newer administrative counties such as North Tipperary. Top-level inter-county players play for Tipperary, and the category for them has long been "Tipperary hurlers", just as it is for "Dublin hurlers", "Galway hurlers" and so on. Because only the GAA organises hurling, no-one had ever thought it necessary to change a category name until - guess who - Laurel Lodged, without any discussion, renamed that one category "Tipperary GAA hurlers" and moved many articles to that page. This now sits as a completely anomalous category: every other county lists hurlers in the long-established form, "Carlow hurlers" and so on.

Next, Laurel Lodged, as ever without any discussion, started moving individual Tipperary sportspeople from the long-established and well-populated category Sportspeople from County Tipperary into two new categories of his own creation, namely Sportspeople from North Tipperary and Sportspeople from South Tipperary. Again, of course, without discussion; and again creating an anomaly, in that none of the other Irish sportspeople by county categories use the new local government counties; they all use the traditional 32 counties.

The behaviour of Laurel Lodged in changing literally hundreds of GAA articles and refusing to engage in discussion frustrated me greatly; as my history shows, I have made a significant contribution to GAA coverage here. I regret that on one occasion I re-reverted a Laurel Lodged move repeatedly, following which we were both briefly banned.

I have not "resumed disruptive edits" nor "declared war" - follow the link provided by The Banner and you will find me quite properly taking the issue of Tipperary changes to the relevant talk page, and as it happens, securing support while Laurel Lodged did not.

Next, as for "insults": the first link provided is to me stating the incontrovertible fact that Laurel Lodged keeps changing pages without discussion, and it will be seen that I did not use any abusive language; the second link provided is to me rebuking what I refer to as the "disgusting behaviour" of another editor who, on the talk page of an unrelated (non-GAA) topic, referred to me as "arsehole" and, in another edit, "a stupid cunt". Now there's an insult; but I was not the person who made it, nor would any reasonable person think that referring to that as "disgusting behaviour" was an insult.

My accuser then links to supposed "Moves without agreement or consensus". But all three links were on the basis of consensus that anyone can check at the reference already given.

My next offence is "Changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories", a plural accusation with but a single link, and this turns out to be, yet again, a matter of reverting changes made without discussion of consensus by, need I say, Laurel Lodged. The usual pattern applies in that I am the first one to take the issue to the talk page, and Laurel Lodged refuses to engage there.

As for the "Other disruptive edits", the first two again were reverts that were discussed and supported here, unlike the original moves which had not been discussed. The next is, far from being a "disruptive edit", a perfectly normal edit to an article dealing with local government history in County Tipperary. Looking at it now I see a little typo, which I have fixed; perhaps that what was thought "disruptive" but anyone checking the history will see that it was a simple mistake with no harm intended or done, and heaven help us if every case of clumsy typing is construed as vandalism. The next is, again, a normal and innocent edit to the template for Derry GAA clubs, ensuring that text appeared in black rather than red as per WP:NAVBOXCOLOUR. Any problem with that? My last "disruption" was to add a factually accurate, and sourced, improvement to wording around the ISO code for "Ulster" - an obscure enough topic, but interesting for some, and worth getting right, which it now is. In short: these accusations of disruption are completely spurious.

I therefore insist that no case has been made for topic-banning me, least of all on a theme, the GAA, where I have made a substantial and worthwhile contribution. However, because of Laurel Lodged's long history of moving GAA articles without seeking consensus, reverting moves back, and refusing to engage on the relevant talk pages, I would be hugely relieved if he were topic-banned from the GAA, at least for a few months. I'm proposing that here, and notifying him on his talk page. Heading above amended accordingly. Brocach (talk) 12:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, I have no connection whatever with Finnegas and if The Banner has some problem with him/her, this is not the place to discuss it. Brocach (talk) 13:06, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

This is the usual modus operandi of mr. Brocach: I am the good guy, I am the victim, WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT and you guys are all wrong, had been wrong all the times and will be wrong forever more. The Banner talk 13:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

You've said your piece; I would prefer that your proposal, and mine, be decided on the facts. Anyone who wants to know my "usual modus operandi" can look at my thousands of contributions to Misplaced Pages. Please keep the revised heading above as this section contains a counter-proposal. Brocach (talk) 14:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Brocach, please don't change the title as it breaks links to this discussion. File your own request when you want to bring Laurel Lodged to AN/I, don't hijack my filing. The Banner talk 14:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't want to break links to this discussion, but it is perfectly legitimate for me to respond to a ban proposal by showing that another user is the real problem and should be topic-banned. For me to repeat all of that in a separate posting would be a waste of everyone's time, particularly when Laurel Lodged is aware of this discussion (since you notified him of it within four minutes of proposing that I be banned). I have therefore placed a subheading for my counter-proposal immediately below your heading, and have verified that links still work. Brocach (talk) 17:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, now you only made a mess of my filing, making it appear that I filed the request. Do you mind the sub-header to below this edits and file your counter-request there? Although they are related, it would be confusing to have two requests in one thread as people will have difficulties responding to the right request. The Banner talk 17:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I really didn't mean to cause any confusion and don't think I've done so. I think that the difference in heading level will make that clear. But for the benefit of anyone who has been interested enough to read down this far, can I make it 100% clear that The Banner wants to ban me, and I want to topic-ban Laurel Lodged? Brocach (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I did file a request for a topic ban, but that will not say that I will pursue it for the full 100%. I believe in Good Faith, so I still hope that you are willing to change your behaviour regarding the GAA voluntarily. The Banner talk 23:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Really excellent news there. Of course I intend to continue, as I always have, operating in good faith. Can I ask you to review the points you made against me above, and my replies; delete any exchanges above that relate to points that have been answered to your satisfaction, and set out which (if any) grounds you still believe justify a topic ban? If there are none, I would ask you to withdraw this request, so that I can reframe my ban request for Laurel Lodge and pursue it without involving you. Brocach (talk) 00:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

It means as much: show me (and prove of a reasonable time) that you really stop with this nonsense, revert all your actions yourself and start behaving like an adult. If not, sorry. Your combative behaviour has disrupted Misplaced Pages long enough. The Banner talk 10:47, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

"Rage - Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles, murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls, great fighter's souls, but made their bodies carrion feats for the dogs and birds and the will of Zeus was moving towards its end."

What is the cause of all the warring? Rage. The final straw for Brocach was when a decision at WP:CFD went against him here. This touched on the area of (GAA) and involved a decision to change the name from "Tipperary hurlers" to Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers.

I took the rather unusal step of saying in my block appeal that "Perhaps the purpose would be best achieved by simply imposing a topic ban on all GAA related articles on both of us until a decision one way or the other had been reached at a neutral forum like WikiProject:Gaelic games or WikiProject:Ireland". Only a few hours of the unblock had expired that my hopes that the block would have a sobering effect on Brocach were in vain. Reluctantly, I must now request that my suggestion be actioned. I am prepared to go into voluntary exile if the same temporary sentance will be passed on Brocach (and his inept sidekick Finnegas) so that a holy peace may descend upon the GAA articles and categories.

He has gone around numerous article writing the same whiney thing on the talk page. This essentially bemoans the injustice of the decision that went against him at WP:CFD. By the time that I saw this entry Colm Bonnar whining, I was getting a mite tetchy in my responses. And so to Noel Lane where Brocach's rationale was "a player for GAA county of Tipperary". This is not in dispute, but it's beside the point. What is most definitely in dispute is that he is not "from County Tipperary", which no longer exists as a unit of local government, but from North Tipperary. The two entities are different. Brocach likes to pretend that the two are essentially identical. He refuses to listen to all arguments to the contrary. This explains why I peppered a lot of my reversions with the epitheth WP:ICANTHEARYOU. In Patrick Maher, the difference between the two entities was again explained in my reversion rationale: "As a county hurer he is listed with Tipp GAA. Geographically, he is from NT. A horse of a different colour". Further examples are Aidan Butler and Sportspeople from County Tipperary.

I will copy the text from my appeal for the second major point of contention. I realised that the cat "Loughmore-Castleiney Gaelic footballers" should not even be in the cat "Sportspeopple from North Tipperary". This moment of clarity came to me when I reviewed the article on Tony Reddin who was born in County Galway (i.e. he is from Galway) but who played hurling for his club Lorrha-Dorrha GAA which is governed by Tipperary GAA. So while it is right and proper that he be a member of Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers, it is not right that he be a member of "Sportspeopple from County Tipperary"; instead he is correctly listed as a member of "Sportspeopple from County Galway". Moving from the particular to the general, I deduced that one may not assume that just because a person is a member of a GAA club that happens to be in Tipperary that all members of of that club must necessarily be from Tipperary. I wrote this in the edit commentary as "a club is not a person". Again Brocach refused to acknowedge this logic and continued to revert. See Category:Lorrha-Dorrha hurlers, where the rationale provided was "Tony Reddin is from Galway. So not all members of Tipp GAA are automatically from County Tipp. A club is not a person". See also Category:Loughmore-Castleiney Gaelic footballers, where the rationale provided was "a CLUB IS NOT A PERSON". Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

From everything that I have said above, you will understand that I profoundly disagree with Laurel Lodged about how people who play on Tipperary GAA teams should be listed (by the county that they play or played for, Tipperary, or by the current local government district that they were born in, or would have been born in had it existed when they were born). No point going into all the details of that issue again. This discussion is not about whether this or that category should be used; but the changes made by Laurel Lodged at Tipperary categories have put it out of sync with every other county in Ireland, and he has made scores if not hundreds of other changes, all undiscussed, that moved articles and categories (dealing with Gaelic games away from their former and proper locations.

What this is about, is (1) whether a user (Laurel Lodged) should be free to move dozens of long-settled articles and refuse to engage on the respective talk pages when that turns out to be controversial; (2) whether that user should be topic-banned for a while until he learns to respect the views of other editors; (3) whether an editor (me) who moves articles back to their original and long-established names, after controversial moves that weren't discussed, should be regarded as a vandal and banned.

Check out (if you have some hours to spare) every instance where a Gaelic Athletic Association sporting competition has been renamed. I believe that in every instance, you will find that any moves away from the original title that were made without discussion were made by one single obsessive editor, Laurel Lodged, for reasons that cannot easily be aligned to the interests of readers or the notion of Misplaced Pages as an encyclopaedia. In most instances, I moved the article back to its settled title, only to be reverted again without discussion. In most such cases, I opened a discussion topic on the talk page, and Laurel Lodged did not engage. Here are a few examples, and you will see the pattern: , , , ... I could go on and on. As noted above, I canvassed views on this wholesale moving and the most recent discussion is here, where you will see that my reverts had consensus on their side.

If you want Misplaced Pages to be the preserve of those who have a really strong point of view about what things should be called (but aren't, in real life), and for which they really need to control Misplaced Pages as a platform to impose their view on the stupid masses, please vote to ban me. If you want Misplaced Pages to be as accurate as possible, give people who care about accurate coverage of the GAA a break, and send Laurel Lodged off to annoy someone else for a few months. Whatever way you vote, the Leinster Senior Football Championship will continue, in real life, to be the Leinster Senior Football Championship, rather that whatever User:Laurel Lodged wants to call it today. Brocach (talk) 00:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• I would remind everyone in this thread of WP:TLDR. If you want to attract the attention of other editors, walls of text are unlikly to do it.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• When I see the words "POV-pushing" and "topic ban" in a section heading I expect the proposer to have a particularly strong case. When I see something like "Especially because Laurel Lodged was clearly right and Brocach clearly wrong" I think the proposer is most unlikely to have a strong case. And sure enough, that is the case here. I think the most intelligent sentence in the proposal is "What on earth are you fighting over?" This is a content dispute, essentially between three editors: the proposer agrees with Laurel Lodged and disagrees with Brocach. It should be dealt with on the Dispute resolution noticeboard. --Scolaire (talk) 08:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• I have been observing this dispute from a distance, and agree with the previous contributor (Scolaire). There is more heat than light being generated by these interminable arguments. However, there are two main protagonists putting their cases forward, and I don't think that Brocach should be the only person facing censure. Hohenloh 12:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Having read The Banner's response to my suggestion on his talk page, I have to wonder if WP:BOOMERANG doesn't come into play here? Scolaire (talk) 12:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry if I have disappointed you by not being convinced that there is a solution possible by mediation. More drama, more words typed, but I see no evidence from Brocach and your side that a compromise is possible. Sorry. The Banner talk 14:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a side. I don't edit-war. Sorry. Scolaire (talk) 14:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

This is clearly a content dispute that has spiralled out of control over a long period of time. How long has this been going on? A year? More> It revolves around a tiny point - the definition and use of the term "county" in Ireland. I suggest that a ban is put on any more moves, renames, relinks and discussions, and that the matter is discussed at WikiProject Ireland until consensus is reached. That's actually the best and correct place for this. --HighKing (talk) 13:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

A year? July 2011 was when we apparently resolved the problem of counties! At that point it had been going on non-stop since at least June 2010. --Scolaire (talk) 14:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I actually agree with most of what has been written in the last few postings. And I would again remind you all that it was I who I took the rather unusal step of suggesting that I topic ban myself. This must surely be a record for ANI. As it is obvious that even a 48 ban cannot produce the required level of contrition or even meditation in Brocach, nothing other solution will give us all the breathing space - free of vandalism - that we all need. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:19, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

While I strongly commend LL's volunteering for a topic ban, well deserved and hopefully long-lasting, I'm not taking the same line. The innuendo above that I was involved in "vandalism" needs to be fleshed out here and now. If one instance of vandalism by me is shown, in relation to GAA topics or anything else, I still won't volunteer for a ban but I will accept one. Brocach (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

At your service: , and . Deliberately damaging an article by removing a correct link and replace is by a redirect is in my opinion vandalism. (issue: "Drom, County Tipperary" redirects to "Drom, North Tipperary") It can be a mistake ONCE, but not multiple times and certainly not when deliberately removing the mention of North Tipperary at all. The Banner talk 16:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Even if it was a mistake – which is only your opinion – it is not vandalism. Examples of typical vandalism are adding irrelevant obscenities and crude humor to a page, illegitimately blanking pages, and inserting obvious nonsense into a page. That a good faith edit is "in your opinion vandalism" doesn't make it vandalism. Scolaire (talk) 23:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd support a more general topic-ban for a month at least just to encourage Brocach to engage more and stop consistently reverting and pushing when they are in the wrong. Take for example their recent 48-hour block for breaking 3RR. This and this from BrownHairedGirl shows Brocach's poor attitude when it comes to editing and discussion quite well. Obviously these are not the only instances, but I'd cite this one as the main one.

Blocks and topic-bans are meant to deter editors from bad behaviour, not to punish them. As such I back a topic-ban of at least a month from editing articles in regards to GAA and Londonderry topics seeing as this is where his attitude is at it's worse. Whilst they are incredibly stubborn and unwilling to budge from their opinion, disregarding compromises, I'd suggest that if blocked from editing, they should still be allowed to partake in discussion. Mabuska 12:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

If the "main" evidence against me is from September 2012 and October 2012, in relation to matters long since settled, we must hope and pray that Mabuska has never, ever made any mistake that might be resurrected by someone to argue for a topic ban. Note that in the instances selected, the editor who disagreed with me did not, then or thereafter, propose a topic ban. Brocach (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi guys Finnegas here, It appears that The Banner has a problem with my edits " And now, as a kind of sidekick, User:Finnegas (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) has started changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories (like , , , , , , , , , and . That I named it work as a sidekick is due to the fact that Finnegas has the explicit support of Brocach... The Banner talk 03:17, 22 January 2013 (UTC)" Well the Banner was welcome to discuss the whole Sportspeople from Tippp Vs Tipp N or Tipp South at Talk:Patrick Maher (hurler) if he so desired. I maintain that the use of administrative counties for Sporspeole from county ? should never replace the 32 counties In addition I would like to declare contary to The Banner I am not User brocach or anyone elses sidekick. It just so happens that I agree with him on this issue.Finnegas (talk) 21:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? Your reply here comes remarkably quick after Broacach advise to have your say here on your . About 9 minutes later... The Banner talk 21:20, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Looks more like 23 hours to me! Scolaire (talk) 00:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I question your powers of observation Banner!. There was a full day between Broacach's advice and me acting upon it. Anyway what do you expect me to do? Remain silent will you and Laurel Lodged demonise me. Not a notion.Finnegas (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2013 (UTC) BTW love the fact you did not reply to the part about you ignoring the part about you failing to engage in discussion on a talk page.

No what do you do? Banner take a cheap shot at me. You could be described as Laurel Lodged lapdog Finnegas (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

In fact, it was just a few minutes after you had acknowledged Brocach's call to arms. You are right that the original WP:Canvassing was much earlier. The Banner talk 03:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Just to make it clear I am will not consent to a topic ban. I did nothing wrong.

I think the above has shown that Finnegas is (a) a creature of Brocach, (b) has nothing to contribute to our understanding other than "because I say so", (c) engages in insulting behaviour. Given that he has continued the destructive path of Brocach on GAA related articles and is dangerously close to a 3RR situation with Banner, all of this leads me to conclude that GAA peace will be impossible until he too joins Brocach & I in our topic ban. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Reply to (c)If I am guilty of "insulting behaviour" then so are you Laurel Lodged. You continue to describe me as Brocach's sidekick which I find quite insulting. I repeat I am nobodys sidekick.I am not engaging in an editwar with The Banner.

Reply to (b)I attempted to engage in a debate on Talk: Patrick Maher (hurler). (a)Does not merit a responseFinnegas (talk) 12:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I've just looked at the mess created by Laurel Lodged at the GAA in Cork article where the nonsense on differences between administrative and traditional counties was fudged into the opening paragraph. This type of nonsense has to stop immediately. I certainly Support the topic ban for Laurel Lodged until this type of editing comes to an immediate halt and the damage reversed. I dread the thoughts of what has been done in other articles. --HighKing (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, interesting that you are showing up here, mr. HighKing. Always good to respond on the canvassing] of Brocach. The Banner talk 03:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the diff posted by HighKing proves the opposite of what he was saying. It proves that the bits which he deleted showed that there is a difference between the two entities. The only reason to delete those bits is to create a fudge. It is HK's tendentious editing that was the problem there. Perhaps he too should be topic banned. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

One topic ban here would be enough. It isn't HighKing, it isn't Finnegas and it isn't me. And it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, particularly those who have taken part in related discussions. Brocach (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

By now, the only thing we have is a massive smoke screen of words, so lets break up this discussion for convenience The Banner talk 17:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for a topic ban for Brocach

The original proposal of this discussion filed by me. The Banner talk 17:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose as set out above. Brocach (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for a topic ban for Laurel Lodged

The counter proposal filed by Brocach The Banner talk 17:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Support as set out above. Brocach (talk) 21:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

A gross breach of WP:BLP at the 'Derby sex gang' article.

Amongst all the other problems with the recently-created Derby sex gang article, it had remained unnoticed util an hour or so ago that amongst those described as 'convicted' was an individual entirely unconnected with the case. This individual had been included right form the start, which has made a redaction of almost the entire edit history necessary. The person responsible, user:AnkhMorpork, has attempted to post an apology of sorts to ANI while asking for a revdel (this has been deleted as 'wrong venue' for the revdel) but given the severity of the error, I consider a mere apology inadequate. Not only was this a gross breach of WP:BLP policy, it could possibly even have legal repercussions, given the source that AnkhMorpork seems to have got it from. This user seems to have a habit of writing sensationalist material, often based on a poor reading of often-questionable sources, frequently apparently aimed at placing certain ethnoreligious minorities in a bad light. Given this latest fiasco, and its potential ramifications, I have to ask whether it is in Misplaced Pages's interests to let this editor contribute to such articles at all? I think not...

(A reminder: DO NOT under any circumstances name the individual concerned, and DO NOT provide links to sources which would allow the name to be inferred - we must not compound the problem by drawing more attention to the individual) AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I've popped it onto pending changes given that it's history has been one gigantic BLP violation. —Tom Morris (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• I erroneously included a name when creating the table of perpetrators in the Derby sex gang. As soon as I became aware of my unfortunate error, I removed the name and requested revision deletion. I must have gotten confused with a recent case of child grooming that I was reading about and was simultaneously working on, in which this individual's name was mentioned.

I obviously understand the BLP ramifications of such a mistake and will certainly be more careful in the future.

• "often-questionable sources" - I ensured that I only used reliable sources when creating the Derby sex gang. The sources used in the article are: the BBC, the Telegraph, the Independent, and the Times. This accusation is unfounded.
• "placing certain ethnoreligious minorities in a bad light." - I am mindful of the sensitive nature of this article and before I created it, I asked an experienced editor, Malik Shabazz for advice on whether I had described the analysis section in a "balanced and accurate manner". He replied that "the section represents fairly what the sources say" upon which I created the article.

I have tried my best to represent what the sources have stated in a fair and neutral manner. Where I have strayed from this fine line, it has been the result of inadvertent error and not because of the ulterior motivations that you impute to.

• Upon discovering my erroneous inclusion, Andy opened a new section on the talk page emblazoning the name of the individual in big font, which subsequently had to be redacted; this despite him being aware of the BLP implications. Another editor commented on this inconsistent approach. If an editor more experienced than myself of BLP considerations, and who is aware of an imminent problem, can similarly cock-up, perhaps you might appreciate that my error could similarly have been unintentional.Ankh.Morpork 19:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Note that there have been no convictions regarding this other case of alleged child grooming either... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Where I have strayed from this fine line, it has been the result of inadvertent error and not because of the ulterior motivations that you impute to. For some reason I doubt that. I cant see another reason for edits like this. nableezy - 20:17, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• The fact that AnkhMorpork, in his very first edit to this shambles of an article, thought it prudent to specify the group as "Asian men" (my italics) tells you everything you need to know about this editor, and what he wanted to achieve with the article. Not the first time and I doubt it will be the last. GiantSnowman 20:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

And it tells you exactly the same about The Telegraph who reported: Asian gang prowled streets searching for rape victims, upon which I based my edit. Two other editors on the talk page agreed with this inclusion. Ankh.Morpork 20:39, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Yep - on the right-side of the political spectrum. GiantSnowman 20:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

And we're not supposed to mention the ethnicity at all, even when it's mentioned in reliable sources? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no 'the ethnicity'. Not all the offenders were from the same background - though It took a comment from me on the talk page to point out that a 'non-Asian' offender had been omitted (and even then, the individual's name seems to have been spelled wrongly, thogh by whom it is hard to tell, given that the article history has been redacted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:54, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Bushranger - we shouldn't give the ethnicity WP:UNDUE weight, as AnkhMorpork loves to do. GiantSnowman 09:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Ankh's last point in his first reply above (added after I had replied, contrary to talk page guidelines), When I started the new section on the name, I was of course entirely unaware of where it came from, and of the possible repercussions. Initially I wondered if another source had named the man as one of those convicted, and the source had merely been omitted. It would clearly have been impossible to ask where it came from at that point without actually naming the individual. As soon as I was aware of the precise situation, I of course moved to have it redacted. It seems that AnkhMorpork is trying to distract us from the significant event here - a gross WP:BLP violation due at least to crass negligence. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the bold move to collapse the above argument. It's an oft said thing about ANI's that all it takes is one comment from another editor and a whole new can of worms is unleashed without the original issue being dealt with first. If anyone thinks that this action was inappropriate, I have no issue with being reverted. If anyone wants to revert and open up a new thread, also please feel free. It is my hope that one thing at a time gets dealt with rather than one ANI descending into a chaotic mishmash of X number of threads causing all manner of headaches. Blackmane (talk) 12:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Accusations of 'Cyber harassment' etc

Sadly, I am going to have to refer to User:Media-hound-_thethird's behaviour once more. I have just discovered that this contributor has posted at AnkhMorpork's talk page, accusing me of "failing to honestly report matters", of "exploitation of Wiki Systems and protocols to pursue agendas in mendacious ways", of "Cyber harassment" - specifically mentioning the UK " Protection from harassment act 1997", of "Using ANI as a cover to carry about patterns that are harrasment" and of "Lynchings to cover up other people's fails". Frankly, I am bewildered by this. A few hours ago Media-hound was posting on my talk page to bring the improper name problem to my attention, to ask about issues with Misplaced Pages search etc. It seems that it was only after I made it clear that I wasn't interested in what looked to be a speculative conspiracy theory that Media-hound suddenly decided that it was me, rather than AnkhMorpork, who was supposedly responsible for this mess, and that it was me that had to answer for it all. I really can't see any rational reason for this whatsoever, and am genuinely baffled at Media-hound's sudden change of tack. In any case, regardless of what brought it about, I have to ask that at minimum, Media-hound be told in no uncertain terms that such postings are unacceptable, and that false and malicious accusations of breaches of UK law (Media-hound is aware that I am a UK resident, incidentally) are in particular likely to result in sanctions. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Media-hound is obviously running an obstructionist line to derail this report, and it is disheartening to see The Bushranger falling for it—naughty words get a threat of a block, while there is zero comment on the substance per not my department. I'm not sure what can be done about "good faith" incompetence because the community is gaining too many editors who fail to understand or care about WP:NOTNEWS, and who believe it is productive to insert gossip into articles that rank #1 in Google. Media-hound's accusations of dishonesty and "Cyber Harrasment" against Andy at User talk:AnkhMorpork#ANI notification are beyond absurd, and I have no idea if it is incompetence or another attempt to derail the report by provoking an outburst. Johnuniq (talk) 06:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Media-hound's comments there look to add up to a legal threat, far as I can see. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I see I need to ask some more direct questions:

1. Since when has it nor been permitted in Wiki for an editor upon assessment of content to change their op8inions and views of either content or another editor?
2. Why do you persist in attacking others and diverting from from your own failures of 20 Jan 2013?
3. Why are you Wiki Lawyering and not doing as advised in Wiki such as:

Misplaced Pages:NPLT#Perceived_legal_threats

"Handling: users should seek to clarify the user's intention (if unclear), explain this policy, and ask if they are willing to withdraw the threat. This helps to ensure that a mere misunderstanding or ignorance of our policies is not involved. Even if comments may not be per se legal threats, they may still fall under the scope of other policies related to disruption or incivility."

It is clear that you are determined to divert attention from yourself by any means - and that you are embarked upon copnduct that I do define as Bullying and Cyber Harassment. You are therefore asked yet again and advised to moderate your tone and language.

The pattern of constructing false allegations and the repeated use of misdirection is a well document pattern of bullying designed to fatigue and burden those targeted with excessive work to disprove each falsity. Please do pursue your persecutions by any means - but you have tried to defend your fails by 1) Trivialisation and now 2) Counter attack . You have been advised that your conduct was not looking good - and now I am obliged to make it clear why - WP:UNCIVIL is too mild.

Again - Kindly stop your misconduct and refrain from behaviour which is Bullying and Harassing. --TTFN-- Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk) 16:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Ask and ye shall receive; I, as an uninvolved editor, have asked you on your talk page to retract your statement, as it could easily be interpreted as a legal threat. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I have no intention of responding to the abject nonsense above, beyond repeating what I have already said regarding my 'failures of Jan 20th' and expanding it to make clear what occurred - that " I (wrongly) assumed the content was correct, except in that it was including individuals in an article on sex crimes who had been convicted of other things - as the talk page make clear". To expand further, I saw that a table included individuals in an article on a 'sex gang' that were stated to have been convicted on non-sexually-related crimes. Considering this a violation of WP:BLP policy, I deleted them from the table, see ] Did I check the other entries? No. Should I have done? With hindsight, one can argue 'yes', given that an individual was named who was neither charged nor convicted of anything, and appears to have nothing whatsoever to do with the events leading to the convictions. That is hindsight however. I do not, as a normal procedure, check an entire article against sources before correcting errors and/or breaches of policy, and it is entirely unreasonable to expect contributors to do so as a matter of course. The simple fact here is that contributors are responsible for ensuring the accuracy of their own edits. This is a core principle of the way Misplaced Pages works - there are no separate 'fact checkers', 'copy editors' or other such functionaries. I assumed, (wrongly, obviously) that AnkhMorpork was working from the sources he cited, and that the sole problem with the list was inclusion of individuals who were convicted of crimes, but not of sexually-related ones - and who therefore shouldn't be described by Misplaced Pages as part of a 'sex gang'. So why is Media-hound holding me personally responsible for AnkhMorpork's gross error? I have no idea, beyond suspecting that Media-hound took umbrage at my refusal to consider his wild conspiracy theories seriously. I didn't check the entire article against sources, but neither did anyone else, until fortunately Media-hound discovered the name problem, and raised it at my talk page. So can I be held in any way responsible? Of course not - I did nothing that I shouldn't, and was under no more obligation to check the article than I am to check any other Misplaced Pages article - i.e. none whatsoever, as a volunteer. If Media-hound is suggesting that there is some kind of obligation to check the entire content of each and every article against sources before making changes, or before commenting on talk pages, I can only state that this isn't the way Misplaced Pages works, and that Misplaced Pages couldn't possibly work that way. The sole person responsible for the error was AnkhMorpork, and I consider Media-hound's attempts to somehow shift the blame to me to be as obnoxious as they are ridiculous, and beneath contempt. If contributors who act to deal with serious WP:BLP violations and the like are to be faced with such random and nonsensical attacks from contributors in future, my advice, sadly, would be to stay the hell out of such issues, and let some other poor sucker deal with the problems. I attempted to deal with problems in good faith, and in return have been confronted with wild (if not entirely deranged) attacks from someone who was only hours before drawing them to my attention, and asking for advice. On this basis, I have already indicated that I think AnkhMorpork should be facing sanctions for what was a grievous error, and I have no hesitation whatsoever in suggesting, given that Media-hound has repeated his ridiculous and nonsensical attempts to hold me responsible for AnkhMorpork's failings, that Media-hound be indefinitely blocked from Misplaced Pages on the grounds set out WP:COMPETENCE and WP:NOTHERE - a clueless troublemaker, if ever there was one. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, yes, you have been very informative, Andy, thank you, and thank you indeed for raising the matter in the first place. Please take a deep breath and take the thread off your watchlist now. You're letting yourself be played like a musical instrument. Bishonen | talk 19:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC).

At least it has been settled amicably, at last. Basket _Feudalist 16:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Summing up

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Well, having reviewed the diffs posted here and the article history, I must say that I get an unpleasant vibe. AnkhMorpork, your editing has been tendentious, at times, in my opinion and, for that, I'm inclined to issue a rather long block, unless you accept an indefinite ban from making any edits across all namespaces relating to Islam and Muslims broadly construed. Media-hound-_thethird, from where I'm standing, you've been trying to derail this thread and that's disruptive. If you persist, you'll find yourself blocked. This is your only warning. Salvio 19:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

You might want to change Islamic people to Muslims. Because I dont really know what an Islamic person is. nableezy - 19:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Change made. I admit I thought the terms were synonymous... Salvio 20:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I will at this point make it clear that I do not consider a withdrawal of legal threats by Media-hound to be sufficient grounds to withhold sanctions against him, given his behaviour. At this point though, I will take Bishonen's advice above, and make no further comments - with the proviso that, if I do not see the issue resolved in what I see as an appropriate manner, I reserve the right to raise the Media-hound issue with the WMF, as the right to raise gross WP:BLP violations here and elsewhere without being confronted with accusations of 'bullying' and with legal threats goes to the core of how Misplaced Pages operates, and needs to be defended, strongly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

If Media-hound does not persevere, then there is no reason to block him: that would be punitive. Then again, if you feel strongly about it, you can, of course, raise the issue with the WMF. Salvio 20:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Media Hound's primary mode of interaction is to derail legitimate discussion with abuse and accusations that are both nonsense and nonsensical. That user's bullying at Talk:Rape_culture has driven away at least one legitimate contributor.

AFAIK, Any content dispute MH is involved in follows the same pattern; Tens of thousands of characters of abuse until the other parties give up, then MH changes the article to their preferred form, per WP:SILENCE.

It was discussed here, to no resolution. 75.69.10.209 (talk) 20:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Note. Far from retracting his baseless attacks on me, Media-found is continuing to repeat them. Given this relentless behaviour, I have to ask what it will take before action is taken? Anyway, as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, you have now lost yet another editor - I can't see why the hell I should have to put up with this shit just because I took action over a gross BLP violation. Find some other mug, and enjoy your swim in the ever-shrinking editor-pool, as you contemplate your navels, whine incessantly about trivia, and let article-space turn into a POV-ridden cesspit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

And still the remorseless shit continues: And note that Media-hound is attacking admins as well now - welcome to the club... AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

What the fuck - if I'm going to be treated like shit, I might as well behave like it - Meet AndyTheGrumpyVandal (and yes, I know you'll block me, but as every vandal knows, half the fun is getting round the blocks - and I know a trick or two. Catch me if you can... ) AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the editor has since retracted this comment. m.o.p 12:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Blocked MediaHound, following the above-quoted diff , which came after a clear warning by Bishonen as well as the warning by Salvio above. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Too fucking little, too fucking late... AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

This clearly WP:POINT edit is not appropriate at all.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Moreover his AN/I notification of random people is clearly disruptive--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:20, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I have blocked AndyTheGrump for 24 hours for his disruptive editing. Fram (talk) 08:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Response to Salvio

1. I made a BLP error and and immediately attempted to rectify it, and this apparent "crass negligence" formed the basis of the complainant's case. I have accepted the need for greater caution on my part.
2. At all points, I have adhered to what the sources have expressly stated and have attempted to present their content in an accurate manner. I solicited advice from an experienced admin before creating this article who confirmed the fairness of my editing. If you think this article evidences "tendentious editing", please clarify why you think that's the case.
3. I have only employed quality sources, contrary to the complainant's assertions, which is readily apparent upon a brief inspection of the article.
4. I initiated an RFC when Andy disagreed with my rendering of the sources, and the majority view is that my position is more accurate than the complainant's.

I have attempted to edit a sensitive subject in a fair manner, and have made use of the talk page, expert advice, and dispute resolution to ensure compliance with wikipedia policy. I have had no previous blocks or topic bans, and think that such proposals are draconian for a BLP lapse that I regret. Ankh.Morpork 20:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Your editing is tendentious because it is primarily centered on providing negative information about a specific group. In doing so you have been shown to make errors of judgment frequently such a the BLP issue, the addition of dubious see also elements that clearly serve no purpose other than to try to link negative stories to every article having to do with Islam or muslims. There is a precedent for placing sanctions in such a case, even when there is no evidence for explicit bad faith, but simply a long standing pattern of bad judgment that slants a series of articles away from NPOV. This happened when User:Noleander was topic banned from editing articles related to Judaism because whether wilfully or not his editing moved wikipedias coverage of Jewish related topics away from NPOV and in a largely negative direction, like you he also committed a serial of judgment errors, probably in good faith. Sometimes whether or not bad faith is present it is necessary to keep editors who have demonstrated difficulties editing neutrally in a topic area from doing harm to wikipedias coverage. I do believe this is one of those cases.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban?

Salvio suggested it above - should AnkhMorpork be subject to an indefinite topic ban - "from making any edits across all namespaces relating to Islam and Muslims broadly construed"? GiantSnowman 20:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I do not think a topic ban fair for a single mistake. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

  It's not for a single mistake. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support as nom; long history of tendentious editing in this area. GiantSnowman 20:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Clearly not a single mistake but the latest in a long series of civil POV pushing that has adversely affected wikipedia's neutrality. I point to the precedent of a similar case in which it was found that "Contributors who engage in tendentious or disruptive editing, such as by engaging in sustained aggressive point-of-view editing or repeatedly misusing sources to favor a particular view, may be banned from the articles in question or from the site." and that "No topics are placed off limits, and "political correctness" is not required as a condition of editing. Nevertheless, certain subject-matters—such as articles discussing specific racial, religious, and ethnic groups, and the members of these groups identified as such—are by their nature more sensitive than others. It is especially important that editors working in these areas adhere to site policies and guidelines and to good encyclopedic practices. These include neutral editing as well as scrupulous sourcing, especially of controversial or disputed claims". And finally: "An editor must not engage in a pattern of editing that focuses on a specific racial, religious, or ethnic group and can reasonably be perceived as gratuitously endorsing or promoting stereotypes, or as evincing invidious bias and prejudice against the members of the group." And finally: "Where an editor's contributions, over a significant period of time and after repeated expressions of concerns, are reasonably perceived by many users to reflect bias and prejudice against the members of a racial, religious, or ethnic group, appropriate remedies or restrictions should be imposed. This does not necessarily require a finding that the editor is actually biased and prejudiced against any group or that the editor consciously intended to edit inappropriately."I think these four findings by the ArbCom in the Noleander case apply equally here. It is possible to be a goodfaith contributor and still unconsciously edit in a biased way that negatively affects the encyclopedia, and we need a way to stop this. Topic bans are excellent for that purpose, and in the Noleander case it proved extremely effective as he remains a productive, responsible and beneficial editor to this day working mainly in other topic areas. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Classic WP:TEDIOUS with as Salvio says an unpleasant vibe. GiantSnowman, could you please specify that we are (as I assume is the idea) opining about an indefinite topic ban here, as indeed in the Noleander case that Maunus mentions. Not a few months. Bishonen | talk 21:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC).

• Indeed - I am proposing an indefinite topic ban. Indefinite, however, does not necessarily mean forever. GiantSnowman 22:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Unjustified. Article seems reasonably edited bar that BLP blip. Juddhoward (talk) 21:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support, obviously - and I think that Maunus sums up the broader problems with AnkhMorpork well. The quote from the Noleander case regarding "scrupulous sourcing" is particularly cogent, not just in this obvious case, but elsewhere in AnkhMorpork's editing history, which is littered with cherry-picked quotes from questionable sources, clearly chosen for spin rather than for encyclopaedic content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Clearly necessary given the ongoing pattern of behaviour. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support per User:Maunus.--В и к и T 21:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support obviously. Salvio 22:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Tendentious and careless, a dangerous combination where people's reputations are concerned. Per GregJackP, below, with the proviso that, if his editing in other areas is without problems, he can request the community lift the ban after a suitable time period (not less than six months). --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:23, 24 January 2013 (UTC) Added proviso 01:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose—it is true that AnkhMorpork violated a number of policies, and as someone pointed out here, has focused perhaps too much on edits about a single religion. However, there are two things that are missing from the conversation that I feel that have been absent in many similar cases on Misplaced Pages, for the detriment of the project. One: while editors are quick to point out problematic editing patterns by AnkhMorpork, no one has pointed to a similar pattern of engagement by serious uninvolved editors. That is, as far as I can tell, no one warned AnkhMorpork just how problematic some of his editing might have been (no, it's not obvious), and when someone did warn him (as in the recent BLP case), AnkhMorpork apologized and even initiated a request to have his revision deleted. So it seems like a clear case of not assuming good faith and wanting to ban an editor because it's the easiest thing to do. And two: AnkhMorpork clearly has an interest in the subject matter, and has contributed a lot to it, including writing new quality articles. So whatever the problems, how would banning him permanently from the area where he makes his best contributions be productive? People want to throw out the baby with the bathwater here, but let's not get carried away and look at what would benefit Misplaced Pages instead of what would be easy. I suggest that AnkhMorpork take a voluntary break from editing on this subject matter and focus his energies on other topics, but without an imposed ban so that he can also make small edits and vandalism reverts to articles he surely follows/watches. At this time I suggest that he familiarizes himself more with Misplaced Pages policies, and that other more senior editors help him if he makes a mistake. This is clearly a good-faith editor, so the negative discourse in this discussion is surprising. IMO it's an editor we want to keep on Misplaced Pages, and not alienate by imposing harsh sanctions—because a permanent topic ban might not seem that harsh, but forever is a very long time. —Ynhockey 22:58, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Just noting that "indefinite" does not mean forever, but just untill there is a consensus to abolish the ban. Also perhaps it is pertinent to supply links to previous ANI cases to show that this is not a standalone issue and indeed AnkhMorpork has been warnedbefore, including a previous topic ban discussion here. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:02, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - Prying yet another tendentious warrior out of the I-P topic area is never a bad thing. Tarc (talk) 23:01, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Long term pattern of editing in this area is not consistent with the purposes of the encyclopedia. Dlv999 (talk) 23:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support – This user's contribution to Misplaced Pages has consisted almost entirely of tendentious pov pushing ever since he arrived here. I see it mostly in the I/P area but looking now at his vigorous promotion of the British-Asians-are-all-evil-rapists slur by "objectively" compiling every negative incident from the UK press just makes me sick. Yaseen Ege, Rochdale sex trafficking gang, Rotherham sex grooming case, Derby sex gang and more of the same is on the way. Please put a stop to it. Zero 00:24, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - The article was reviewed by an experienced admin who approved it. This is an attempt by political opponents to win a content dispute by banning their adversary. They think it's all over (talk) 00:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Please take note of the single-purpose accounts, e.g. They think it's all over (talk · contribs) & Juddhoward (talk · contribs), beginning to infest this discussion. This is what invariably happens, as "friends" show up to support those who share a point-of-view on the topic at hand. Tarc (talk) 00:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

But no doubt it is fine for those who have a different POV to vote for a topic ban. Darkness Shines (talk) 00:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(ec)I have no POV when it comes to Israel-Palestine, I hate you all rather equally..."you" as in pov-pushers, not as in Israelis and Palestinians personally. That's the difference between you and I, is that I can and have argued strenuously in defense of a person or subject even when personally I may be deeply opposed to their politics. For example, I am a strident proponent of same-sex marriage, yet I put a lot of time and effort into ensuring that Rick Santorum and Campaign for "santorum" neologism remained neutral and objective. I also fought what IMO a rather Herculean battle to get Marcus Bachmann's article deleted, as it was only created as a platform for pro-gay activism. I was also, again IMO, the primary antagonist in last year's should-we-censor-images-of-Muhammad debate, Arbcom, and RfC, which ultimately answered that question with a resounding and forceful "no" to censorship. Any examples like that you can point to DS? Or does your mile-long block log speak for itself in terms of why you are an editor in this project, and what your track record is thus far? Tarc (talk) 00:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Truer words have not been written on this :) They think it's all over (talk) 00:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Eh? Not to embarass you, Tarc, but it looks as if TTIAO is already an established editor, first editing July 10th. Juddhoward is fairly new, but still predates this discussion, first editing on December 30th. Calling other people SPA's without at least glancing at their edit history is NOT assuming good faith. I could see your point here, but im just not buying it if you accuse wildly. Also, I hardly think that two votes (from two independent people) is "infesting" the discussion. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar 00:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The closer should note that They think it's all over (talk · contribs) began editing 6 months ago, has 200-odd edits, mostly in the Muslim/Jew area, and was spouting Wiki-jargon and quoting policy like a pro straight out of the blocks. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not embarrassed in the slightest actually, as I did look first. In 6 months, "TTIAO" has edited almost exclusively in this topic area. Length of time does not make this person's editing any less singular, I'm afraid. I have no doubt it is simply a formerly-blocked user. Tarc (talk) 01:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Be that as it may, it is not in good faith to assume that someone is a sockpuppet because they have oppose your arguments and a habit of editing volatile articles. Everyone has an equal opinion on Misplaced Pages. If you have no respect for other's comments, why should we have any respect for yours? Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar 01:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Everybody's opinion is valued on the merits of their argument, and to some extent on their reputation for good judgment. The opinion of an unknown editor, with 200 edits over six months, with all the behaviours of a long-term editor with 20,000 edits will be weighed accordingly. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Well, if you wan't to go down the WP: ABF road, then you can go right ahead. They are you admin rights after all, don't let me stop you. My WikiVampire]-slaying blade needs sharpening, and i'm in no shape to resist the dreaded WP: BITE. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar 01:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an admin. And AGF dos not mean behaving like a blind fool. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Completely over the top. No previous blocks and editor acknowledges his fault. Opportunidaddy (talk) 00:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support, with a proviso that if his editing in other areas is without problems, he can request the community lift the ban after a suitable time period (not less than six months). GregJackP Boomer! 00:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Although only in the basis of one incident, his constant infringing on the topic has completely justified a topic ban. This could have easily become a legal issue. We don't want another Tron fiasco. However, I agree with GregJack. If he shows he can edit at non-inflammatory levels, then the topic ban should be lifted (of course, after a considerable amount of time). Perhaps he would like to join me at WP: MINING? Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar 01:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support something but an indef topic-ban appears to be asking too much too soon relative to established community consensus and precedent, as far as I can tell. I read through the ANI histories and User Talk page of both Ankh and Noleander, and also the Noleander case. Noleander was the focus of five separate ANI threads (by my count). The final ANI thread lasted four days with !voting falling about in the same proportions seen here so far, but was not closed with a sanction. Instead, it went over to ARBCOM for 20 days before resulting in a 12-month topic ban for Noleander with the possibility of being lifted after that. The fundamentals of the argument against Noleander were that s/he was engaging in creating articles about individual Jews, using poor sourcing, and (particularly) misusing the sources to depict Jews unfavorably. The ARBMCOM ruling that specified the topic-ban gave two examples, 1) undue weight on negative views of Jews, and 2) misused sources were misued in a way to present negative views of Jews.

  In the case of Ankh, I can see some but not all of these characteristics. To start with, I could find only one other ANI case, which was closed with a recommendation that an WP:RFCU be filed, which did not happen. Noleander was the focus of much more scrutiny at ANI over a much longer period of time than Ankh has been so far. And the fundamentals are different: the quality of the sourcing is different, and convincing evidence was brought showing Noleander's misuse of sources in a way that completely turned around their meaning, and that's not even a main complaint here about Ankh's editing.

  To be clear, I personally am disturbed by the kinds of articles Ankh has created so far--they are not on topics I'd care to find in an encyclopedia, and they appear to be carefully crafted to show particular groups of individuals who are identified as Muslims or who have (I don't know how better to say this) Muslim-sounding names in the worst possible light. Some sort of intervention should happen here - whether it's an RFC/U, a warning, mentoring, or even a topic-ban of some length, but when Ankh's history is lined up with that of Noleander, who after a significantly greater amount of attention received a 12-month topic ban, an indef topic-ban here from "Islam and all Muslims" seems out of bounds. Zad68 06:20, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose First of all the ban is too wide if there some problem it only in Sex gang articles second of all like was noted in the thread he only reports what the sources say.The complaint of User:GiantSnowman that it was right wing source.Maybe I missed something but I thought we can use the sources from all political spectrum as long as they meets WP:RS and not only --Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 06:24, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. AnkhMorpork has been blatantly trying to paint articles about Islam and Muslims in as negative a light as possible. There are plenty of examples already given, but this seems like a particularly egregious example. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. There is a lengthy history of POV editing here; it's about time a topic ban was enacted. Yes, he "acknowledges his fault" in this instance, but if he doesn't do anything to change his pattern of behaviour (and he hasn't so far) then it's just window-dressing. It's time to enforce a change of behaviour. Prioryman (talk) 08:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• (e/c)Support topic ban. Persuaded over the line for a topic ban per Boing! and the milder but still sensorious presentation by Zad: "they appear to be carefully crafted to show particular groups of individuals who are identified as Muslims or who have (I don't know how better to say this) Muslim-sounding names in the worst possible light" Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support; the recent strife at the Derby article seems to be part of a broader pattern of very worrisome civil pov-pushing. bobrayner (talk) 12:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. Over the top. Zad makes a few good points, Shrike, too, it seems. Further, if reliable sources paint a group negatively, we should anticipate that articles here will (and perhaps should) do likewise. I suggest the supporters stop trying to RIGHTGREATWRONGS and let it go at this point. --Nouniquenames 06:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support -- this is not the editor to make the sort of judgments required. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:09, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Jokestress at Talk:Hebephilia

• User:Jokestress at Talk:Hebephilia

Jokestress/Andrea James has repeatedly acted inappropriately at the talk page of the Hebephilia article. Often, she's either attacking User:James Cantor/James Cantor or making demands. James Cantor is someone that she should generally have no contact with while on Misplaced Pages, by the way. Check their user pages, Misplaced Pages biography articles, and the Hebephilia talk page for why that is. In this section, not only did she demand that editors start doing what she wants done with the article, but also suggested that we are doing a disservice to Misplaced Pages by not revealing our true (real life) identities while editing this topic. When editors understandably did not take kindly to her comments, naming some offenses she has committed off Misplaced Pages, she decided to respond with more venom and tamper with others' talk page comments. Jokestress claims that she is validated in tampering with the talk page comments like this, disregarding what WP:TALK states about tampering with others' comments, because they are what she considers to be WP:BLP violations. As seen in those diff-links, I reverted her three times; she reverted me three times as well. We only have her word that they are WP:BLP violations. And if they are WP:BLP violations, I do not believe that she is allowed to tamper with the comments in that way. There are other methods that can be taken.

I will be alerting her to this discussion on my talk page, where she has already commented about the perceived WP:BLP issue. And I'll alert the others (those involved) at their talk pages. Flyer22 (talk) 09:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Refactoring of the comments is the most disturbing thing I see here. Why does she need to avoid James Cantor? Is there an interaction ban? Other then that I see two editors on the opposite end of the spectrum. WP:TROUT for refactoring the comments and a grow up to all partied involved. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 11:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

There are also WP:CIVIL issues to worry about, even though, these days, I have seen people (administrators and non-administrators) not take WP:CIVILITY seriously. She constantly creates a bad environment on the talk page (the Hebephilia talk page and other talk pages) because, with the exception of messing with others' comments, she is consistently doing what I noted above. She takes any chance she can to make a disparaging remark about Cantor, such as stating that he is a WP:Single purpose account (even though others disagree that he is and there's nothing necessarily bad about being a single-purpose account) or what Cantor has mentioned are WP:BLP violations. This is one of the things that makes the talk page environment toxic because, for example, Cantor is sometimes left having to defend himself in ways that sometimes result in bitter banter between the two or because others decide to defend him and/or tell her to stick to focusing on improving the article and not on Cantor. I don't know if these two have an official interaction ban, but like I stated to her on the Hebephilia talk page: "As some of us here know, you were a part of a well-publicized campaign against J. Michael Bailey, who Cantor has supported. And you hate Cantor almost as much. Now you are at an article repeatedly attacking a diagnosis proposal made by Ray Blanchard, Cantor et al.; when these individuals are involved, it's never simply about being neutral with you; it's rather about you having, as Legitimus has stated, an axe to grind against these people. You do this at almost all such articles involving views expressed by Bailey, Cantor or other researchers you don't like. You constantly hound Cantor around Misplaced Pages, and that is not at all about 'fair and accurate' matters. You act like Cantor is always pushing his POV and that you are never pushing yours, which is the opposite of what many others at this site have seen. For years on Misplaced Pages, you and Cantor have been repeatedly asked to stay away from each other, and to not edit articles that have to do with the other; it's not like you have been repeatedly asked this for nothing." Flyer22 (talk) 12:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

The "offences committed off wikipedia" are documented in this 60 page article. Probably a good place to get an idea starts with the words "In May 2006, knowing of my increasing curiosity in the matter". For me they are more than a little concerning. I would be quite concerned if Jokestress/James knew my real-life identity; comments like this, suggesting (though perhaps I'm being paranoid) that she is trying to ferret out my real-life identity, do not help the matter, nor do comments like this, where anonymous user names are used as an accusation of an undisclosed COI. Again, perhaps I'm being paranoid, but there seems to be genuine reason for concern that the noticeboard could benefit from knowing about.

The disputes between Jokestress and James Cantor do spill across a lot of pages and Cantor has voluntarily agreed not to edit many of them, but the two will often get pulled into unproductive baiting of each other which is disruptive to the page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 12:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

So what are you exactly asking for in this situation? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 12:19, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

For administrative action regarding her repeated WP:CIVIL violations and WP:TALK violations in general, and for her tampering with others' comments. Your initial statement above shows that you don't see any validity in her messing with others' comments like that simply because of her perception that they are WP:BLP violations. I'm not sure if an interaction ban between her and Cantor should be proposed at this noticeboard, but I see such proposals often here and there needs to be one between them. Flyer22 (talk) 12:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary i find that refactoring others comment is very much an issue, is it a tarring and feathering worthy offense not unless they have a history of ignoring warnings regarding it. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "on the contrary": I didn't state or imply that you don't find refactoring others' comments very much an issue. In fact, I stated the opposite. And giving the user a warning about it, which I am obviously asking of someone with Misplaced Pages administrative powers to do if what she did is not permitted by WP:BLP, is not "tarring and feathering." And tampering with others' comments is not something that takes "hav a history of ignoring warnings regarding it" before being given a warning about it. If you are not an administrator, which it doesn't appear that you are, I'd rather an administrator weigh in on that. Flyer22 (talk) 15:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Trout and close'. Jokes tress gets a trout for the refactoring (it's not a BLP issue). FWIW Jokestress did not demand others identify their public personas, but suggested they might want too. Nothing wrong with that. Her other comments are mostly about how the minority scientific view is being given undue weight in the article. She might want to ask for more eyes from WP:MEDRS if that's a concern.  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  15:31, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Jokestress needs a warning, not a trout, and not just about refactoring others' comments (which is made even clearer by my initial post in the Proposed Interaction Ban section below). I did not state that she demanded that anyone identify their real-life identities. And if the majority scientific view is that hebephilia is not a mental disorder, that is not given WP:UNDUE WEIGHT in the article at all. It's given overwhelming weight, which is why a request has been made to cut some of that weight down. As for bringing WP:MED, not WP:MEDRS (which is the guideline for reliable medical sources), into this, they have made it very clear that they generally are not interested in working on/weighing in on psychological/psychiatric topics. And Jokestress has made her lack of respect for WP:MED very clear, stating that she would rather not take things there because they (including me) see things through a medical POV. Jokestress is admittedly very anti-medicalization of any sexuality. Flyer22 (talk) 16:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Other than the refactoring, I don't see any wrongdoing, even from the section below you mentioned. It would help if you presented diffs, as tl;dr sections won't help your case.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  16:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

If you don't see anything wrong other than the refractoring, then I have nothing more to state to you about this except the following: I have obviously provided diff-links on certain parts. And there's no need to provide diff-links when the links I do provide suffice. As for "too long; didn't read," that is only a problem for certain editors; most who frequent this noticeboard deal with lengthy discussions just fine (not that this discussion is actually that lengthy yet), and such lengthy discussions often do help cases.

Now again, I would rather administrators comment on this. Flyer22 (talk) 16:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Interaction Ban

Proposed that due to incessant infighting due to COI on both sides which has lead to civility issues for both an interaction ban is enacted to both user Jokestress and Cantor for a period of six months. First break in ban is a day block and each time it is extended a week, month year, indef. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 12:41, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Straw polls are a useful tool for judging consensus following a detailed discussion. Starting one three hours after coming across a situation on a random walk across ANI is less so. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

And you meaning is? There's a suggestion that was proposed by a member above other then myself as a belief it would be a solution. I merely made a separate section for it. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

While an interaction ban would doubtless be a good thing, it doesn't address some of the other issues. Jokestress in her non-wiki life as Andrea James has done things that make people feel threatened (per my initial comment). Her edits to others' talk page comments are removals of statements by people pointing this out, and pointing out why they might have valid concerns about real-life consequences. I don't know if ANI is equipped to deal with something like this, which requires much patience and reading, and consideration of the overlapping roles and actions on-wiki and off. I don't know if arbitration could handle it. Jokestress has, in my opinion, a significant non-financial COI - but there is no clear-cut way to deal with it in a manner that will seem fair. I don't necessarily think "fairness" should be the over-riding ideal in this case, I think a topic ban based on human sexuality articles might be a way forward, but I doubt it would be endorsed by a critical mass of the community. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I was also thinking that something more than just an interaction ban needs to be done on this matter. After all, an interaction ban wouldn't restrict her from commenting or editing at articles that concern Cantor's work or the work of other researchers she doesn't like. It's the paraphilia articles, more than sexuality articles in general, that she significantly focuses on. And this is because some of the researchers she doesn't like specialize in those topics (especially Cantor). Anything to do with such researchers and transgender topics is also a concern when it comes to Jokestress's Misplaced Pages editing. See this section (which has subsections) at the List of paraphilias article. See the current edit history of the Attraction to transgender people article and its talk page; if that were a high-traffic article, something very visible to most Misplaced Pages editors, she would have gotten a WP:3RR warning or would have been blocked for breaching it. And on a related note to that time frame, see how she inappropriately started the following WP:AfD debates that concern Cantor: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gynandromorphophilia, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gynemimetophilia...and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Michael C. Seto. Then look at her comments at Talk:Michael C. Seto. Flyer22 (talk) 15:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

However there were valid concerns about those AfDs that Jokestress was correct on, even if they weren't handled with the height of decorum. Cantor has been fairly obviously promoting his work and that of his co-workers, a COI if ever there was one. I don't know if Jokestress tries to restore balance but she has done so every time I've dealt with Cantor's work. It's time consuming and unending dealing with unwinding these knots of the fringe researchers promoting their views on Misplaced Pages as mainstream. Insomesia (talk) 21:40, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with WLU and Flyer22 that a topic ban would better address the problem than an interaction ban. Even when I withdraw completely from a talkpage, Jokestress continues disrupting the otherwise unanimous editors. (For examples: , ).

I’ve kept on my userpage this pledge to end the persistent warring to no avail. I’ve repeated my invitation on the other pages to which she followed me (e.g., here, here), still to no avail.

Also, Jokestress’ incivility and personal attacks are repeatedly about me, even when they are not TO me, which an interaction ban would not address:

• On pedophilia: “David Finkelhor is about five to ten times more influential than Cantor's colleagues regarding the definitions of pedophilia and child sexual abuse. ”
• On hebephilia: “I can't take it any more…"Hebephilia" is a fictitious diagnosis, one of many created by an activist minority in the mental health field to pathologize sex and gender minorities...Unfortunately, one of the people in that activist minority, James Cantor, happens to be an editor here at Misplaced Pages.”
• On List of paraphilias: "James Cantor, the Misplaced Pages SPA who does most of the editing here...Frankly, a gay guy is probably not the the most objective POV "expert" to conclude that his sexuality is "euphilic" ".
• On paraphilia: “James Cantor appears nowhere in the top ten Google Scholar list when I do a search for "pedophilia". And that list is extremely biased toward the sociobiological/disease model of sex and gender minorities. ”
• On Feminine essence theory of transsexuality: "User:James Cantor is a single-purpose account editing Misplaced Pages for two reasons: to promote his own writings and those of his sexologist friends"
• On Gynandromorphophilia: “This is yet another attempt by this editor to medicalize a common form of attraction with an obscure term used by an activist minority in the mental health field, a little pocket of pathological science fixated on the concept of paraphilia…This is discussed much more commonly as a sociological phenomenon than a medical one, with the exception of a few holdouts clinging to 20th century ideologies.”
• On Michael C. Seto: “Article was created by…a single-purpose account here to promote the work and ideas of himself and his friends.”

Jokestress is, of course, a productive editor in a wide range of articles, but the edits she makes to sexology articles and their talkpages are invariably about me and other people she keeps off-wiki attack sites about. (For examples: http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/bailey-usual-suspects.html .) Indeed, her off-wiki attacks against experts she dislikes have become so notable as to have been covered in the NYTimes. (See here.)

— James Cantor (talk) 17:15, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not involved here per se, but I've closed some Afds that the involved parties have commented on and have read through some of the talk pages involved. I've been very concerned by the interactions between the two. I'd support an interaction ban at minimum, but I think Arbitration may be better suited to handle the complexity of this situation. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I think arbitration would be declined at this point as interaction and topic bans have not been attempted, so I suggest that we (the community) at least give it a go. It might be just postponing it for a couple of months, but we can hope it might work. As other have suggested above, I don't think either a topic ban or an interaction ban would work on their own but I don't see why they can't be combined. Perhaps something like:

• Jokestress is topic banned from all articles and talk pages related to sexology and paraphilias, broadly construed.
• Jokestress and James Cantor are banned from interacting with each other, commenting on and/or commenting about each other including their professional lives, works and on-wiki activities. This applies to all namespaces, but excludes dispute resolution that explicitly relates to both parties.

Do those more involved with this than me think this might work? I'm not certain that James Cantor needs the interaction ban as he seems better able to control himself, but one-sided bans are very often more problematical than problem solving. Thryduulf (talk) 18:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with a topic ban, there hasn't been adequate formal dispute resolution for that extent yet but the interaction ban is in my opinion doable although it may be unnec as well if we can impress community consensus on Jokestress assuming we get one, a broadly construed interaction ban can be helpful if that doesn't work. I think in this case especially with the original posters reluctance of working with the community at that point we are enforcing one view by hammer. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

That's right, accuse us of being reluctant to work with the community/of WP:Bad faith all because I stated that I also wanted to hear opinions from administrators at an administrative noticeboard. That's right, accuse us of being reluctant to work with the community/of WP:Bad faith all because you now have a score to settle with me. Ridiculous. Flyer22 (talk) 18:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

For reference, this was a prior request for arbitration: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration&oldid=264958462#user:Dicklyon.2C_user:Jokestress.2C_and_user:James_Cantor_at_The_Man_Who_Would_Be_Queen_and_related_pages — James Cantor (talk) 18:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

That is a highly relevant diff thank you for posting it. I would be more inclined to agree with a community enforced interaction and topic ban as it is noted by the Arbitrators that a previous one did work in the past and also note that several of those arbs said this is still within the reach of community discussion to resolve. I would also note and emphasize the part about community and discussion as being key to that, which is precisely what is happening here despite Flyers best efforts to subvert that process. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

There have also been mediations, but I cannot locate the archive.— James Cantor (talk) 18:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

And flyer if by score I'm trying to settle you mean discuss the situation posted here you are quite right, I'm trying to help settle it. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

No efforts on my part to subvert community discussion, no matter how many times you make such an absurd claim. You would do well to learn to focus on the matter at hand, and not on me because of your newfound and unwarranted grudge. Flyer22 (talk) 18:41, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

What grudge is that precisely? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. I wonder (sarcasm). Flyer22 (talk) 18:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)At AN/I, "the matter at hand" is whatever comes up in the discussion. Everyone's conduct in a discussion is open to discussion - and, if necessary, sanction - and repeated insistence to 'focus on the topic' only raises suspicion, rightly or wrongly, of trying to dodge or hide something. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Maintenance note: I've refactored the header to remove the links (with the original header added one line below) as links in headers are not of the good. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Also, may I humbly suggest the above discussion slow down, just a little? There's lots and lots of discussion and already proposed interaction and topic bans and the person primarily under discussion, User:Jokestress, has not been online (judging by the contribution history) for the entire period of the discussion above which has already reached that point. Perhaps it might be wise to step back, drink a cuppa, and wait until the other side of the story is received? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Deeply concerned. I just read the NYT article Cantor presented and was shocked to read the following about Jokestress/James Ms. James downloaded images from Dr. Bailey’s Web site of his children, taken when they were in middle and elementary school, and posted them on her own site, with sexually explicit captions that she provided.. I assume this issue has been addressed on-wiki already? Would someone please share a synopsis of the consensus?  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  19:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it hasn't been. My opinion is the obvious one: that the sexology pages have been let to become Jokestress' WP:battleground for her off-wiki campaign against those same people and their colleagues (including me).— James Cantor (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, those things were also made clear in my and WLU's original posts above in this section. I linked to the Hebephilia talk page discussion where others expressed that such off-Misplaced Pages offenses by Jokestress are why they are not comfortable revealing their true identities to her, and WLU linked to a journal source about it. Flyer22 (talk) 19:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Ignoring the above sniping (feel free to hat it anyone) To Cantor & Rosetta - Jokestres's off-wiki actions regarding Bailey are not really anything Misplaced Pages can do something about. Old news for a start, and at best they can be taken into account that she has a COI when it comes to editing the topic area (as does Cantor). Do you (James) interact with Jokestress anywhere else on wikipedia other than the Sexology topic area? Because if not, then a topic ban for both of you would be the simplest way forward for everyone. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: An IP suddenly popped up to complain about Jokestress at the talk page of the J. Michael Bailey article. It's suspicious that the IP showed up on this day, with all the above already going on. Flyer22 (talk) 21:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Cantor may have a COI. However Jokestress appears to have a vendetta against some BLP subjects. A topic ban for her and and an interaction ban between her and Cantor.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  23:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Support topic ban for User:Jokestress from all articles and talk pages relating to sexology and paraphilias, broadly construed, and mutual interaction ban between User:James Cantor and Jokestress as proposed by User:Thryduulf above.

Among many points above not fully grasping the issues at hand the contention offered by User:Only in death that as WP cannot "do" anything about off-wiki behaviour, that such behaviour is now old news, and that the relevant issues pertain only to the interaction between Cantor and Jokestress, fails to address the potentially chilling effects of an editor with a documented history of behavior off-wiki that many would regard as intimidatory enjoining other editors to reveal their real-life identities (as detailed on the hebephilia talk page). In this instance, off-wiki behaviour, rather than being irrelevant, clearly informs the reception of such comments by the editors at whom they were directed.

For clarification, I've previously edited the Hebephilia and Talk:Hebephilia pages but departed more or less coincidentally with (but not consequent to) Jokestress's arrival at those pages. I've also had some earlier interaction with Jokestress but cannot, through the available tools, actually pinpoint where and when on-wiki . That source is obviously missing something as, arising I think out of some discussion on related sexology pages and alterations to Andrea James's biography, I had agreed to add previously removed content to Andrea James's biography (a promise I didn't fulfill) and entered into limited email contact with Andrea James/Jokestress about the same. FiachraByrne (talk) 02:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the proposed topic ban for Jokestress and interaction ban between Cantor and Jokestress are very good ideas. I think they would solve the issue nicely without need for Arbitration. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Realistically FiachraByrne, wikipedia cannot do anything off or on wiki to prevent that 'chilling effect'. Given the tactics Jokestress has been willing to use in her activism, topic-banning her wouldnt prevent those actions from happening again. It just means she wont be able to do anything at the article in question. It doesnt prevent her or anyone else from reading the talk page/edit history and deciding to take action elsewhere. I wouldnt touch any of those articles just knowing someone who feels strongly enough to take the actions linked above is watching them. Even if they cant contribute. A topic ban may at least prevent the (I am not convinced on this) attempts to solicit real-life identities. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Thryduulf's suggestion. And a minor point of note - James Cantor is sometimes referred to by editors (inclding myself) as "James", making it difficult to parse some comments that refer to Jokestress as "James". WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support, per all the comments showing (among other problematic things regarding Jokestress) the toxic environment that is created when Jokestress comments on researchers she does not like and/or edits articles concerning one or more of those researchers, and per what often happens when Cantor and Jokestress interact on Misplaced Pages. Flyer22 (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for this issue

• Maintenance note: I slightly renamed the section (having added "for this issue" on to the title) to keep us from being taken to a section far above that has the same title; this would happen when we saved edits in this section. Flyer22 (talk) 14:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Please see my further comment below before commenting in this discussion. Sceptre 19:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

From an activist perspective, I would be very sympathetic to James, were it not for the "pictures of Bailey's children" part. I have my deep, deep personal concerns about some of the professionals at CAMH (and Bailey, though he works at Northwestern University) and their support of alternative theories into transgender typology which I agree with James (and, indeed, the NGLTF) are unscientific and objectifying. This is a very nasty real-life dispute that has flowed onto the wiki. That said, NPOV dictates that we must leave such activism at the door. First, James' reverts are legitimate per BLP and NPA and are oversightable. Legitimus basically accused her of a serious crime that I can see no evidence of her ever committing; even, in the case of Bailey during the The Man Who Would Be Queen controversy, the NYT and even Dreger agree with her on the facts that the pictures of Bailey's children were freely available on his website. Such an accusation would normally be grounds for a ban in itself; I propose blocking Legitimus until he retracts his accusation. First, I agree with an interaction ban, but I would also expand that to Legitimus, and topic ban all three of them from articles on sexology indefinitely. It's very clear that all three have major COIs relating to their real-life work which is causing them to push their own points of view and attack each other. Sceptre 11:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

As can be seen with Jokestress's repeated removals of the text, Herostratus also wrote that she is the photographer of the pictures of Bailey's children that she used. It wasn't only Legitimus. Flyer22 (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic banning Cantor or both Cantor and James, as proposer. Sceptre 11:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC) (Edited: 19:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC); see below
• Oppose for Jokestress, sorry she may have issues but she is highly competent when not provoked and I'm afraid we're only getting a part of the fully story. I would like to see her commit to toning down the problem behaviors and explaining a bit more what is going on. From what I've seen there has been some highly visible fringe campaigning going on for years and she is doing a part of the walled-garden weed-whacking. Insomesia (talk) 12:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for Jokestress. I had no intention of ever posting in this discussion, but by making your statements about me, I have no choice. I have gone back and edited my own talk page comment to remove the untrue portion, and I encourage all other users who made similar statements to also edit there own remarks. I was neither accusing nor lying however. I genuinely thought that was what had happened because sources I read never said where the photos came from. I need to clarify two things though. First, I did not "accuse her of a serious crime." In real life (as opposed to lifetime movies) photographing people out in public in situations where there is no expectation of privacy is not illegal. Otherwise the staff of TMZ would all be behind bars. Second, how the photographs are obtained makes little different as to the heinousness of the behavior. In the jurisdiction I live in, James would have faced prison time all the same due to how our cyber-stalking laws work here. While I freely admit my statement was in error, my disgust at the behavior and anger at being so flippantly and incorrectly accused of libel with the threat of a ban prevents me from outright apologizing at this time. If this can be sorted out peacefully, I may change my mind. I have chosen to voluntarily recuse myself from the hebephilia article entirely and have removed it from my watchlist regardless. I think Jokestress should do the same or else be topic banned. Had she and I met in another topic that was less contentious, we might have gotten along.Legitimus (talk) 13:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Legitimus, c'omn, we need you at that article. Leaving it is exactly what she wants, which is why she tried intimidating you. Don't let her win. Flyer22 (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

She genuinely makes me nervous about retaliation. She said on my talk page she tried to e-mail me twice, though I never received anything. Could be a technical issue, but I'm concerned what they might have contained or if it was some kind of ploy to get my e-mail address. I'm similarly not fond of being brow-beaten on a psych topic by a Hollywood writer with no mental health creds. I don't want to be involved if she's going to still be editing these articles. Bullies exist only so long as the system lets them get away with it.Legitimus (talk) 17:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

You're strong enough to handle it. But I understand being tired of it. Flyer22 (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The problem is not jokestress, the problem is that the article (like others) are a battleground becasue of two parties with strong POV's, and at least one party (Cantor) with a clear COI. Because of this, several articles are in poor state because of the POV involved. If users who push back to this get topic banned, POV-pushers like flyer and cantor get their way. I have repeatedly edited edits of Cantor because they are not reflecting what the sources state, but his personal conclusions. If anything, Cantor needs a topic ban for repeated POV pushing based on his COI. -- Kim van der Linde 13:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

You really want to start with me right now? I don't have any POV to push on the Hebephilia article, or any Misplaced Pages article, except keep POVs like yours and Jokestress's out of it/them. You have as much of a POV at that article as anyone, coming out of "retirement" just to push that POV. Whereas Jokestress is very much for hebephilia not being characterized as a mental disorder, you are very much for hebephilia being characterized as a mental disorder. You have made it no secret that you pretty much see it as pedophilia. This is why you made this mention of the overlap in the lead, although I ended up tweaking it. So don't come here making false claims of POV and stirring up needless drama. Flyer22 (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The article made it sound like it was a accepted fact that it was a separate paraphilia from pedophilia. It is not, and if you want to push the idea that it is my POV when I actually provided some recent citations for the claim, instead of a single decades old citation that did not cover what we know NOW, you just showed what the problem is. You are one of the worst POV pushers I know. And for the record, you have obviously NO clue how I see things. But in the end, it does not matter. What matters is that Blanchard and Canter have tried to get it in the DSM-V in various forms, and they were rebuffed soundly. That included a redefinition of pedophilia away from current definitions, and the article was reflecting that, and not the accepted definitions. That is what is wrong with the artiel. -- Kim van der Linde 14:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

It is separate from pedophilia, according to most reliable sources on the topic, and the article did not call it a paraphilia. I, however, have argued that it's only somewhat separate from pedophilia. But that it overlaps with pedophilia, an overlap that I have repeatedly acknowledged (to Cantor, you, and to others), and is also why I did not revert your "overlap" edit, does not make it pedophilia. That is your problem; you want everyone to equate hebephilia with pedophilia, which you have made no secret of (here at Misplaced Pages and on your personal blogs, which would sometimes coincide with your editing, and is why you are one of the worst POV-pushers I know of). Because of that, I very much doubt that you did not want it listed by name as pedophilia in the DSM-5 (which makes your bias against Cantor all the more odd), unless it's the fact that it would still be distinguished from pedophilia under Blanchard's proposal that caused you not to want it listed in the DSM-5. At the time of the aforementioned edit you made, the article was (and currently still is) reflecting that a lot people (including researchers) do not consider hebephilia to be a mental disorder or a paraphilia, meaning that it is different than pedophilia (and the article being formatted like that is largely because of Jokestress's involvement with the article). That hebephilia is different is the currently accepted definition among most experts in this field. So, yes, I (and others) obviously have a clue how you see things. And just like Jokestress, you take any chance to make a disparaging comment about a Misplaced Pages editor that you don't like. But this thread is not about the animosity between you and I. And so... Flyer22 (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it would be wise that you do not speculate on what my opinion is about things, as you obviously have no clue. -- Kim van der Linde 16:47, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I have no clue (sarcasm). But it is wise to keep the animosity between us out of this thread, as well as off Misplaced Pages as a whole. Flyer22 (talk) 17:04, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, and using sarcasm is not going to change that you indeed have no clue about what my opinion is about certain aspects. If you respond to things I write, i will respond back if I feel like it. if you do nto wantb to be called out of making things up, don't make things up. It is really simple. -- Kim van der Linde 18:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I indeed do have a clue about what your opinion is about certain aspects. Stating that I don't won't change that. It's that simple, really. As noted, your stance (past and/or current) on certain aspects is on Misplaced Pages, so the "made up" argument is silly. And as for you responding to things I write in response to you, that goes vice versa. Yes, I know that you love getting the last word; that's old news. Flyer22 (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, you can keep proclaiming that you have a clue about what my motivations are till eternity, the fact is that I know what my motivations and opinions are and you have them wrong. -- Kim van der Linde 20:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

And you are obviously allowed to keep claiming/asserting that. Flyer22 (talk) 20:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I am indeed allowed to claim that I know my own motivations. Or is there is rule against "knowing your own motivation" nowadays on wikipedia? -- Kim van der Linde 20:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, someone wants the last word badly. I'll be childish like you and not let you have it. This thread will have to be shut down first. That, or warnings to us both will need to be issued by an administrator (or administrators, as in not from you). Flyer22 (talk) 20:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the incivility, but you're both acting like a pair of 5 year olds fighting over the swingset at kindergarten. How about you both shut the hell up since you're doing yourselves no favors, other than appearing to be a pair of dicks? Fish 21:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

No apology needed for your incivility, BarkingFish. I obviously agree. Thank you. Flyer22 (talk) 21:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for Jokestress, per all the comments showing (among other problematic things regarding Jokestress) the toxic environment that is created when Jokestress comments on researchers she does not like and/or edits articles concerning one or more of those researchers, and per what often happens when Cantor and Jokestress interact on Misplaced Pages. I disagree that Cantor or Legitimus should be indefinitely banned from sexology topics. They have excellent knowledge on sexual topics, especially regarding pedophilia. Having a COI does not mean that these editors cannot and should not contribute to these articles, as long as they edit respectfully concerning those COIs. But I've never known Legitimus to have a COI, and especially not on the level of Cantor or Jokestress. He has never tried to push his personal POV on a sexual article or any article. He rarely edits, mainly showing up to revert vandalism, other unconstructive edits, or to comment on the talk page of articles (such as providing needed information). When he edits an article, his edits are always fair and balanced. Flyer22 (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for Jokestress, as per Thryduulf (with little green rosetta, FiachraByrne, WLU, Flyer22, Hell in a Bucket, and Mark Arsten...Or does this new section indicate a whole new ball of wax?) I am also willing to support/participate in a mutual interaction ban.— James Cantor (talk) 14:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban for all involved without going into extreme detail as to the particulars. I think James Cantor has shown exemplary poise in this Ani and also note that Jokestress is a very valuable contributor (multi-lingual) in many areas in spite of her inclusionist nature (I am a deletionist). It's unfortunate anytime a topic/interaction ban must be made however I think it should be six months with a hope that they can all come back to their senses and edit constructively. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • By all involved let me clarify, I mean Herostratus, Legitmus, Cantor, Jokestress and Flyer22. We have such a partisan issue here that I don't think that short of Arb which is looking more and more like a good idea we are silencing one side by interaciton/topic ban. This is a mess. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 05:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• Arbcom or defer until Oversight review. I see a little kangaroo court has popped up before I am able to comment fully. Legitimus and Herostratus suddenly seem to understand they have crossed a serious line, and their attempts with Flyer22, WLU, and James Cantor to poison the well here and get a quick decision before I can respond is typical of their previous attempts to sanction me here via this kind of trolling. How about we close this without action, take this to Arbcom, or wait on a trial till I am able to comment? It's way too complex to be a simple up or down vote on one editor. Jokestress (talk) 18:20, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

You had plenty of time to comment, such as when I first brought this matter here. You decided to lay low while all this was going on. I'm unaware of Herostratus, Legitimus, WLU or myself trying to bring sanctions against you before. Suggesting that you stop WP:HOUNDING Cantor, on the other hand? Yes. And as comments from outside editors show above, the concerns expressed regarding your actions on and off Misplaced Pages are not a matter of trolling. As for taking this to WP:ArbCom, I'd be fine with it being taken to them, especially since it doesn't seem that this thread will be successful in resolving the issues. But there is the matter of what Thryduulf stated above: "Hmm, I think arbitration would be declined at this point as interaction and topic bans have not been attempted, so I suggest that we (the community) at least give it a go. It might be just postponing it for a couple of months, but we can hope it might work. As other have suggested above, I don't think either a topic ban or an interaction ban would work on their own but I don't see why they can't be combined." Flyer22 (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

And deferring to Oversight review only addresses the WP:BLP concerns you've expressed regarding Legitimus and Herostratus stating that you are the photographer of the pictures of Bailey's children that you used. Flyer22 (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for Jokestress per Flyer22 and per this. Oppose topic ban for Cantor and Legitimus per Flyer22.--В и к и T 18:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Further comment: While I was aware Cantor worked at CAMH (which already rang alarm bells in my head) when I proposed the topic ban, I was not aware of this line in his Misplaced Pages biography:

He is skeptical of shemales—men who undergo procedures to look female and who live as women, but who do not seek sex reassignment surgery—who say they want to remain in a shemale state. Cantor has been quoted as saying that " often change their stories as they come to terms with everything."

After reading that line, I immediately retched. If an editor had said that on-project, I think they'd be looking down the barrel end of a long ban. Reading into his activities more, he seems to be have been active within a concerted effort of his colleagues at CAMH to introduce their own pet theories into DSM-V (most notably, autogynephilia, a theory which Cantor seems to support due to his positive review of The Man Who Would Be Queen). If he's willing to push such a personal unscientific agenda in the medical industry, I think it's not inappropriate to discuss whether he would do the same on Misplaced Pages. Sceptre 19:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Sceptre, Cantor has a long history of POV pushing here at wikipedia, and Flyer often seems to act as his meat puppet. Because of this, a whole series of articles is effectively owned by them, and it ios sheer impossible to get quality edits into those articles based on actual sources, or as with hebephilia, sections get so incredibly bloated that they are anything but encyclopedic. -- Kim van der Linde 20:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

So much for keeping the animosity between us off Misplaced Pages. There is no proof whatsoever that I act as Cantor's meatpuppet. Not to mention, that I don't agree with what a lot of Cantor believes (and I do mean his research). And like I stated above, the Hebephilia article being what you call "bloated" with the DSM debate is largely because of Jokestress's involvement with the article. It's not like Cantor would want all the criticism in the article. Flyer22 (talk) 20:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect, the section is bloated because Cantor is pushing a specific POV with regard to this topic. This inhibits sensible encyclopedic writing. -- Kim van der Linde 20:36, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect? LOL. The talk page and its currently only archive show otherwise (that rhymes). Most of the DSM material currently in the article is criticism of the hebephilia diagnosis. And who requested that such material be in the article? Jokestress. Jeez, you'll lie about/distort anything. Flyer22 (talk) 20:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:LIARLIAR. Tread carefully. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Hey, The Bushranger. I wasn't going to reply to you on that, but, seeing that WP:LIARLIAR is an essay page about deletion of content/articles, the only relevant thing I see there regarding this discussion is where it considers calling someone a liar to be a personal attack. But, on Misplaced Pages, we often state that others' claims are not true, as demonstrated in this discussion; I don't find that much different than using the words lie or liar, except that using those words are less pleasant. I much prefer the Misplaced Pages:Honesty page. Flyer22 (talk) 14:38, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

*Oppose topic ban for jokestress. I would support a civility remedy however, as jokestress does have an aggressive and combative approach to other editors which is damaging to the editing environment. I cannot support a topic ban on jokestress alone as there are other editors on that page with strong POV's who engage in disruptive POV pushing and singling out jokestress would be unfair on her. I tried to edit the article as I felt that it was very biased (although the article has since changed substantially) but I kept getting reverted and met with strong POV's on the talk page. In the end I backed away from the article and left it for others with better stamina to bring the article to neutrality. Jokestress is certainly not the only problem editor on there and thus should not be singled out on her own. Anyway, the way forward I feel is an admonishment and a possible civility remedy placed on jokestress. If this fails to resolve the issue, then ArbCom or a topic ban might be in order; topic bans are not first resort remedies, usually.--MrADHD | T@1k? 20:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC) **Support topic ban for Jokestress on articles related to sexual matters including paraphilias. Also would support an interaction ban between Jokestress and James Cantor and a civility remedy for Jokestress. Initially I was opposed to a topic ban on this user (due to ignorance of the very long background) but upon reading comments more closely and doing some background digging, I see there is more to this editor than I first thought and I have grave concerns regarding the conduct and behaviour of Jokestress. I am particularly concerned about the long history of harassing type behaviour including the abuse of pictures of opponents children - editors have expressed a fear of this editor destroying them if they find out their real world identity. Their aggressive style is also desruptive. I don't see how one can expect other editors to work alongside an editor like Jokestress given the harassing behaviour she has engaged in, especially given that this editor has not reformed their ways in the past 10 years.--MrADHD | T@1k? 09:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• • Oppose topic bans or any remedies on anyone. Support sending this to ArbCom. After reading this response by Jokestress to my concerns, I am changing my vote for the 3rd and final time. I oppose any community action on any editor including jokestress. I (and I am sure others as well) am getting mislead left right and centre with half truths and lots of mudslinging. What is at the heart of this is a complicated POV battleground and to get to the bottom of it requires ArbCom I feel. Kneejerk reactions by the community risks punishing people who have the most mud sticking to them but not necessarily guilty of much. I honestly don't know for sure who is the 'main problem' on these articles - so lets just send this mess to ArbCom. :-) --MrADHD | T@1k? 16:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support interaction ban for Cantor/Jokestress, topic ban for Jokestress While the actions by Jokestress are 5 years old, they are so reprehensible that it should be obvious to all that her judgment is clouded with respect to the whole "phillia" thing. And it appears these off wiki battles are still occurring onsite. Enough.  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  21:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support interaction ban on Jokestress and Cantor - topic ban on all paraphilias for Jokestress - Clearly this is going nowhere, suggest both Cantor and Jokestress stay the hell out of each other's way, and Jokestress stay out of the topic as a whole - their presence and edits are clearly causing strife, but let us not forget that Cantor's COI pushing doesn't exactly help matters. Fish 21:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• I've said so above, but since new voting sections keep getting added, I'll make it more clear for the closing admin: Support an interaction ban between Jokestress and Cantor and a topic ban on paraphilias for Jokestress Mark Arsten (talk) 21:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) In addition to my proposal above, which I still think is worth trying, I beginning to think that something needs to happen with Kim van der Linde and possibly Flyer22. Certainly the former is not acting at all like an admin should, and I'm thinking that some sort of restriction is in order to get them to civilly discuss content rather than attack other contributors. I wouldn't object to an interaction ban between the two parties either, but I'm not sure both it and the restriction on Kim van der Linde are necessary. I don't really see Flyer22's contributions to the interactions between them being significantly more than rising to bait (which they really need to stop doing), but as above I'm not a fan of one-sided interaction bans, and in this case I'm not convinced that Flyer22 wouldn't game and bait a one-sided ban on Kim.
  If we can remove the hindering users then I strongly believe that high quality neutral articles in this area. James Cantor does have a very big COI, but that in itself is not a problem as he appears to abide by the WP:COI guidelines well. Jokestress has an equally large COI but doesn't seem to be able to play nicely with others in this topic area or respect the COI guidelines nearly as well; this is a real shame as her actions do much to discredit her views even though they seem broadly aligned with the mainstream in many respects (as I understand both her views and the mainstream).
  Finally, a think a firm reminder to all parties about civility and COI policies and guidelines needs to issued along with the understanding that further breaches will (not maybe, will) lead to sanctions including blocks. Thryduulf (talk) 21:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

KimvdLinde is hardly on Misplaced Pages these days. She's "semi-retired." So there doesn't really need to be an interaction ban between us. On or off Misplaced Pages, I can work with people that I dislike; she has repeatedly displayed that she cannot, often attacking me out of nowhere (just like she's done here). I don't game and bait people, by the way. Most who are familiar with my editing can attest to that. Flyer22 (talk) 22:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

From what I have seen of Flyer's contributions, they seem to be within policies and guidelines and in my opinion Flyer is a competent and productive editor. I have not seen any evidence of baiting or gaming behaviour. I am not familiar with Kim at all, so I can't comment.--MrADHD | T@1k? 22:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm an involved party (sort of), I did allow myself to be goaded by Jokestress into quoting Joseph Welch and so forth (justifiably, but I still shouldn't allow myself to be goaded), and I did make an error: Jokestress (that is, Andrea James) did not take a covert photo of her opponent's elementary-school-age daughter and publish it on her website with the eyes blacked out and a caption asking whether this elementary-school-age daughter was "a cock-starved exhibitionist, or a paraphiliac who just gets off on the idea of it?". I shouldn't have said that because it wasn't true (I had misunderstood) and I apologize. What I meant to say way that Jokestress copied a photo from the web of her opponent's elementary-school-age daughter and published it on her website with the eyes blacked out and a caption asking whether this elementary-school-age daughter was "a cock-starved exhibitionist, or a paraphiliac who just gets off on the idea of it?". Obviously that is so much better and of course that changes everything.

However, inasmuch as I do have standing, if any, as an involved person to comment, I would also Support interaction topic ban on all paraphilias for Jokestress I suppose. Actually I guess I would support a topic ban on all topics and an interaction ban with everyone if that were possible. Heck if it were possible I'd support her being banned from the internet and here's a couple reasons why:

1. , she constantly and persistently goads me (and others) as some kind of unworthy mook because I "hide" my real identity (which is perfectly within policy and tradition and general pratice here). This is very annoying and depressing since I have reasonable cause to believe that if she did get hold of my real identity she'd use to to try to ruin my life and quite possibly succeed. I'm afraid of this person and that's no fun, and no way to run an encyclopedia, I don't think. If we were running a drug cartel then "instilling fear" might be a good core value, I suppose; for writing an encyclopedia, not so much.
2. , we really don't need the kind of editors who write articles like Adult sexual interest in children with text like "...survey of human adult–child sexual behavior worldwide indicated it has occurred throughout history with varying degrees of acceptability and was much more prevalent in the past...."; "Intuitively it is obvious that the sexual abuse of children inflicts deep psychological harm. But there are also reasons to distrust this intuition. First of all, it could reflect an irrational taboo about the sexuality of children. The idea that children should be sexually innocent is not universal; in fact, it is relatively modern...", as she did. No other editor can get away with this sort of stuff. Hats off to her that she can, I guess, but how helpful is this to our mission? "Hi! My name is Andrea James. I am a writer and activist..." but do we really want this kind of activist? Not in my opinion we don't. Herostratus (talk) 04:06, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this information Herostratus - I was not fully aware of the background. That is quite shocking and I agree that editors cannot be expected to work alongside someone like that especially given that this editor continues some of the problematic behaviours and has not apologised from what I can tell and is continuing harassing type behaviours. I have changed my vote above to support a topic ban on this user Jokestress as well as supporting other remedies against this user.--MrADHD | T@1k? 09:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? I didn't say that. Richard Posner, one of America's most famous living attorneys, said that in his widely-read book Sex and Reason. This is all part of Herostratus' long-running bogus attempts to paint me as "pro-pedophilia," an outrageous accusation which should probably also be oversighted at each instance. I frequently work on topics of a controversial nature here because I find it interesting, but my article edits are always within policy. In the case of human sexuality, there are a few people who are so hairtrigger about the whole thing like Herostratus, that it's impossible just to mention the full range of scholarly opinion on a topic without being accused of this or that by Herostraus et al. I edit under my real name and work for a number of high-profile family-oriented companies off-wiki. Do you think I would do anything here like be pro-pedophilia (whatever that means)? This has turned into a giant IDONTLIKEIT referendum and has nothing to do with any recent activity. It's a rehashing of old grudges. I have done nothing in violation of policy and I am being punished because five editors want hebephilia to represent James Cantor's view, and because I do not want actionable libel about me to remain on the site. It's a no-win situation, where I somehow get punished for others' bad behavior in distorting an article. Herostratus libels me and his pals escalate the abuse then bring it up here, yet I get proposed sanctions? Now I think we should definitely all head to ArbCom. Herostratus bad-faith actions at hebephilia and just above call for some serious remedies. I can't believe he can libel me with impunity and I get painted as the villain. Jokestress (talk) 10:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I have concerns about Cantor and 1 or two other editors on that page as well regarding their ability to write neutrally on that subject matter. In fact it was I who recruited WLU (an editor with a skill at editing neutrally in controversial articles) to the page to try and bring some sense and balance in the POV battleground. The main concern however, is not your POV or other people's POV but it is harassing type behaviour. What do you have to say about taking pictures of someone's children from a website and placing them on another website alongside sexually abusive commentary? That is not normal behaviour unless people are making stuff up?? I don't see you disagreeing with this allegation.--MrADHD | T@1k? 11:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, this is complicated, but here's what happened. In 2003, an exploitative professor named J. Michael Bailey wrote a lurid book about transsexual women. To sell it, he was doing a book tour around the US using images of transgender children as young as six without their knowledge or consent, mocking them in a lecture that provoked laughter from attendees and sexualizing them by saying he could tell their sexualities were one of two "types." Example: Psychology lecture lacks sensitivity to sexual orientation. Bailey also claimed these children could be "cured" with reparative therapy. His 19 year-old son and 17-year-old daughter were also helping to promote the book that year because it was dedicated to them, doing press, etc. To illustrate how outrageous his exploitation of trans children was, I took a quote from his book and put it next to an image of Bailey's 19-year-old son, and I asked which of two sexualized types his daughter was, using her image. As you might imagine, people went crazy, illustrating my point. And of course, no one cared that Bailey was making lurid mockery of our children, because they are trans and mocking and medicalizing trans children is completely acceptable. Once again, proving my point. Bailey was investigated by his university for a number of infractions involving informed consent and academic misconduct, and they sealed the findings right after he stepped down as department chair. You may recall Bailey is the guy who had his human sexuality class taken away after he arranged for a live fucksaw demonstration on a woman for students on campus. Example: Northwestern’s Fucksaw Sex Class Gets Axed. Ten years later, people have completely forgotten about Bailey's exploitation of trans children, exploitation of bi men (he said you are gay, straight or lying), and exploitative fucksaw class. But they remember that I am a bad person. Bailey and James Cantor have been closely connected since the earliest days of his exploitation of trans people. As noted above, Cantor has stated on record that he doubts "shemales" are telling the truth if they don't want to have genital surgery. He has also argued that "shemale" is a scientific term. Bailey works closely with a number of James Cantor's colleagues at CAMH.

Has any of this affected my edits at hebephilia? I don't think so. I just know that James Cantor and his friends at CAMH and here at Misplaced Pages have a long history of problematic activity toward sex and gender minorities. Because I am intimately familiar with how they operate and keep a close eye on everything they do offsite, I have tried to keep Cantor's excesses here in check, with limited success. My limited success is because of gross misrepresentations of what has really happened. I have been very above-board and have always edited under my real name, because I think that's important on these topics. These guys are just trying to shock people into thinking I am a bad editor/person. I think anyone can look at my 46,000 edits across all aspects of the project and see that I tend to be pretty even, particularly in the last 5 years or so. I often get commended for my work on controversial topics. This one has proven exceedingly difficult to edit because of how emotional everyone gets about the subject matter. I stay completely calm as wild-eyed editors libel me left and right and make numerous false accusations, but I get a kangaroo court after they bring up their own bad behavior here. Kind of amazing. Jokestress (talk) 12:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

So you were being pointy off wiki. No rule against that. FWLIW when I see anyone claim reparative thearapy works, I tend to discount most of their other beliefs. The problem here is that the off wiki activities of multiple parties have spilled over here, and it is disruptive. I am particulary concerned about the "outing" fears some editors have expressed.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  14:28, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping an open mind and waiting till I gave (part of) my side of this.

• First and foremost, I have never outed any Wikipedian or threatened to out any Wikipedian. I do believe that it would be better for everyone editing extremely controversial topics to identify themselves in the interest of Misplaced Pages's transparency, especially those who have undisclosed COIs, but I can not and did not "demand" it of anyone. I believe something as controversial as a disputed diagnosis like "hebephilia" would be best served if those editing declared their COIs and better yet identified themselves. I also find it hard to edit with the constant personal attacks if I bring this up. Legitimus is a "mental health provider" of some sort who agrees strongly with Cantor for some undisclosed reason regarding hebephilia (they are a tiny minority in their field). I asked about that. Then comes the libel. I concede that some of my replies reflect my frustration, and that I should tone it down. When people start libeling me, then Flyer22 reverts the libel three times despite my telling her I am being libeled, I find it rather unpleasant to say the least.
• The NY Times guy who wrote the one-sided distortion was on a vendetta after I got him in trouble with media watchdog groups like FAIR etc in 2005 for an uncritical profile of Bailey called Gay, Straight or Lying? Bisexuality revisited. Example criticism: Bailey claimed his now-disproved "science" proved that bisexual men are liars, and Ben Carey lapped it up. Two years later, Carey composed a hit piece on me and two other notable trans women (one of whom I have never met) who Bailey claims were a cabal orchestrating a vast conspiracy trying to "ruin" him. "Gay, Straight or Lying" was also the marketing term Bailey used to sell his exploitative book on transsexual women. Example: . The book has long been out of print and the published took the unprecedented step of distancing themselves from the views of the book. James Cantor has been one of the book's staunchest defenders since its publication.
• Reparative therapy of trans children: as with hebephilia, James Cantor has been heavily involved in POV-pushing at the article covering reparative therapy of trans children. His friends at CAMH run the world's largest "clinic" for this "therapeutic intervention," as Cantor calls it. Clinicians have called Cantor's CAMH colleagues Ken Zucker and Susan Bradley's clinic "something disturbingly close to reparative therapy for homosexuals" and have noted that the goal is preventing transsexualism: "Reparative therapy is believed to reduce the chances of adult GID (i.e., transsexualism) which Zucker and Bradley characterize as undesirable." Author Phyllis Burke wrote, "The diagnosis of GID in children, as supported by Zucker and Bradley, is simply child abuse." (from the GIDC article).
• In my many, many years at Misplaced Pages, I have never seen more persistently egregious COI activity than James Cantor's. He epitomizes a single-purpose account. Almost without exception, he is here to promote his allies and denigrate people like me. The diffs for this are his entire edit history under all three names. I believe Cantor's Misplaced Pages editing can be viewed as a particularly insidious form of paid editing on behalf of CAMH. He hides behind "expert retention," even though he is really "an activist minority in the mental health field" according to his peers. Having said that, I once again believe that we have had a good recent history of working together. I have also been making good progress at hebephilia with WLU. The disruption of that work is because of Flyer22, even more so than the libel by Herostratus and Legitimus. This AN/I should never have been opened by Flyer22, but since it is, I have proposed suggested remedies below up to and including formal interactions bans for all. Barring that, let's head to ArbCom. Jokestress (talk) 18:57, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

As has already been pointed out below, Jokestress's claim that she and Cantor have "had a good recent history of working together" and that "he disruption of that work is because of " is utterly false. And as has already been made clear, most people here do believe that this ANI report, which, again, is obviously not just about refractoring comments, should have been filed because it has brought significant attention to serious issues. Jokestress obviously often cannot refrain from speaking of me negatively, but that is what it is. Flyer22 (talk) 19:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

And regarding what Legitimus believes, I point people to the Stagnant discussion of the Hebephilia talk page where he stated: "I also do need to mention that I have no opinion on whether or not hebephilia is a mental disorder. This is another reason why I have stayed out of the debate. Though I don't think it's fair to favor certain professional's opinions who have never actually conducted any primary research in this subject area and appear to have financial and/or political stakes in opposing this. I am more interested in adding information about the term (and/or very concept) in an investigative capacity. The principle (whether called 'hebephilia' or something else) undeniably exists among criminal profilers and other members of law enforcement for use as a way to classify sexually-based offenders, though the actual motive that drives a criminal towards this population varies. For now I'd rather wait for the other parts to get sorted out." Flyer22 (talk) 19:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Jokestress, thank you for giving your side of the story. I still think that what you did was wrong as two wrongs do not make a right but no one is perfect. Your explaination of events does add context however which was lacking when other editors in good or bad faith were slinging mud. Your explaination cements in my mind that this is a complex battleground and requires an ArbCom intervention. I have changed my vote supporting sanctions against you back to opposing sanctions on you or anyone else and I instead feel that referring this to ArbCom is the best way forward and have 'voted' for this above. There is lots of half-truths and mudslinging going on in this topic area, I suspect.--MrADHD | T@1k? 16:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

MrADHD, I don't believe that Herostratus was trying to misrepresent anything Jokestress stated; rather, I believe that he was demonstrating what type of text was in the article she created; he did use the words "with text like," and they are in quotation marks, after all. For anyone wanting to read what was stated in that AfD, here is the link: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adult sexual interest in children. Flyer22 (talk) 17:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I did not have Herostratus in mind when I was talking about mudslinging but someone else. I have no opinion on Herostratus as I do not know them and I am not familiar with their editing. I am not sure who did what and when and feel this whole dispute as stated needs the attention of ArbCom to figure everything out.--MrADHD | T@1k? 19:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I was not stating that you were, MrADHD. Jokestress is the one who stated that she did not say that and that Herostratus was misrepresenting her words. Flyer22 (talk) 19:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Just a note to combat the obvious assertion that I want the Hebephilia article to represent James Cantor's view: Like I stated at the Hebephilia talk page, I recently have repeatedly stated that most researchers do not consider hebephilia a mental disorder or a paraphilia. But Cantor has criticized my use of the word "researchers" and believes that most of what he considers to be the actual researchers do view hebephilia as a psychiatric issue that should be diagnosable. Do I believe that Cantor's view should be in the Hebephilia article? Yes, of course. But, for me, building the Hebephilia article is not about only or mostly "trying" to represent James Cantor's view. Flyer22 (talk) 14:38, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• On my talk page, Jokestress has asked me to reconsider my proposal for a topic ban for her and interaction ban between her and James Cantor in the light of her responses here. Having re-read through everything, I still stand by it. Although her stated aim is for neutrality, I am not convinced that her presence is actually condusive to achieving this. I'm less certain now that some restriction on James Cantor isn't needed, but if it is then I think it would need to cover only article space, as his talk page interaction is not causing the problems that Jokestress' is. In terms of moving forward with content, I think that it might be a good idea to reach out to get more input from the community with a well-structured RfC, particularly if the removal of Jokestress from the talk pages doesn't on its own lead to the finding of consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 21:08, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for Jokestress. I've been involved in this, although I'm not one of the main protagonists. IMO, Jokestress's position is philosophically wrong-headed, but that's not the point. Both Jokestress and James Cantor have a COI. The difference between them is that Jokestress has an unrealistic aspiration that the article should reflect her POV in it's entirety, whereas JC engages with other editors and accepts that he can't always have everything his own way. That makes one of them, on balance, a negative and the other useful. The issue is really WP:BATTLEGROUND. I've had a think about JC's role with regards to the article. It is not the case, as has been suggested above, that other involved editors are his meatpuppets. That should be obvious from reading the talkpage. He does command respect as an expert on the topic (there's no denying that he is one) and he supplies other editors with papers, which is likely to curry favour (although it seems he is willing to supply whatever people might ask for, not just material favourable to his own position). However, the end result is actually an article which contains a lot of information against his position, so it does not seem to be the case that he has had any terrible distorting effect on it.

I'm perturbed by a few comments above along the lines of "anyone who is opposed to the medicalisation of sexuality (ie Jokestress) is OK by me". The article should properly reflect that this is part of the debate on hebephilia. But Jokestress's position seems more radical (and less coherent) than this, because she seems to want to write an article that puts it on a level with palmistry, which is something not supported by the sources or by common sense. Formerip (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

What in the world are you talking about, FormerIP? Palmistry? Are you going to supply diffs for these false accusations? I have never said anything like that. My position is quite coherent and aligns exactly with the expert consensus of medical and legal professionals. I agree with experts who consider this to be a pseudoscientific construct similar to phrenology (example). You do not seem to have any coherent idea of my POV, so please do not try to summarize it or vote based on what you think it might be. I believe the hebephilia article should reflect the consensus view of experts, just as any article should, and it does not by any stretch. The reason it does not is because of the James Cantor voting bloc and their control of the article. This article may appear to be balanced on the surface to the uninvolved, but it is not even close to reflecting the actual expert consensus position, which has remained consistent over the years. It doesn't even include the publications of the most prominent "hebephilia" critics. Yet when I object to this egregious NPOV problem, a little alliance of editors tries to vote me off the island through means like this AN/I, attempting to make it look to uninvolved editors as if I am the POV-pusher. James Cantor is the person most responsible for skewing Misplaced Pages's coverage of hebephilia, up to and including tampering with the biographies of anyone who disagrees with his minority (possibly fringe) POV. I know this is a lot to take in for an uninvolved editor, and your comment and vote are both perfect reflections of why a vote on sanctions here is bound to be based on first impressions and misinterpretations rather than a full reckoning of the depth of the problem. I believe an ArbCom case will be a much better place to deal with these issues if sanctions are applied unevenly here. Jokestress (talk) 13:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Send to arbcom – they haven't had much to do of late, and this longstanding dispute is probably best resolved by them. Andreas JN466 04:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Response from Jokestress

Per the instructions at the top of this page, I am working with the Oversight Team instead of responding here. Please don't take my silence as agreement with any opinions posted above. I'll have a longer reply sometime soon. Thanks. Jokestress (talk) 08:08, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Post-Oversight update

Now that oversight is completed, it's clear that

• I was within my rights to remove actionable libel posted by Herostratus and Legitimus under WP:TPO.
• Flyer22 and WLU were in violation of multiple policies in reverting my removals.
• Flyer22's tattling via this AN/I report is pure trolling and disruption.
• This AN/I report was a pretense to poison the well and get me sanctioned when I could not comment.

I propose:

• This AN/I case be closed without action, unless you want to give a trout to Flyer22 for creating the disruption. I consider the incident that occasioned this to be resolved, as I am the aggrieved party, not her.
• Barring that, trouts all around for incivility.
• Barring that, wrist slaps for Herostratus and Legitimus for their policy violations, and for Flyer22 and WLU for reinserting said policy violations. In that case I should also get a wrist slap for rising to their bait and getting snippy.
• Barring that, I propose interaction bans for Flyer22, James Cantor, WLU, Legitimus, Herostratus, and myself.

The COI matter of single-purpose account User:James Cantor and his sympathetic proxies listed above, along with my own COI and that of a few others, is much more complex and probably requires a different venue for resolution. Everything in the section above is a one-sided account of some drama from 2003 they use whenever I call them on their POV-pushing at human sexuality articles.

With the exception of a handful of edits, every edit User:James Cantor has made on the project under User:MarionTheLibrarian, User:WriteMakesRight, and his real name promotes himself and his friends, or denigrates their critics (including me). In the case of "hebephilia," James Cantor and his friends recently failed badly in getting the concept codified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), so he now seems to be using Misplaced Pages to rewrite what happened and to gain traction for his views among lay readers. This is an extremely complex matter that at first glance is hard to understand, and the topic matter means emotions can run very high.

• This article space edit by James Cantor, a revision that removed a factually accurate and reliably sourced summary of what happened with "hebephilia," started the recent article space problems. Cantor is part of the "activist minority in the mental health field" (a published expert's words, not mine) described in that revision.
• Uninvolved editors User:MrADHD and User:FiachraByrne made a series of excellent observations about the obvious bias in the article.
• I was making good progress with WLU and James Cantor despite our differences until Flyer22, Legitmus, and Herostratus showed up. Flyer22 is the real hindrance to productive collaboration in my opinion and should have stayed banned from Misplaced Pages. This disruption is typical of her overwrought behavior. You can see she responds every single time to people she dislikes. It's a dispiriting grind to deal with her, as we can see by this entire thread.
• It's very frustrating to see the James Cantor voting bloc control article content to reflect his views, fabricating a "consensus" on Misplaced Pages that is the opposite of the medical and legal consensus. I had previously agreed not to edit the article and have been limiting my comments to the talk page.
• I'd rather we all spend our time fixing "hebephilia" than creating unnecessary drama here. This incident report was unfounded. These kinds of disruptions are not improving an article badly in need of attention due to POV and COI.

tl;dr version: Incident resolved to satisfaction of aggrieved party (me). Propose trouts all around, or barring that, interaction bans all around. COI issues need to be resolved elsewhere. Jokestress (talk) 21:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Like I stated below, "Reporting was clearly about more than tampering with others' edits. And as all others above have agreed, what I reported goes far beyond the refractoring of comments." And above, I've already stated, "You had plenty of time to comment , such as when I first brought this matter here. You decided to lay low while all this was going on."

Your claims against me are baseless, while mine against you have been validated by others above.

You state that you "were making good progress with WLU and James Cantor despite differences until , Legitmus, and Herostratus showed up." That's false. I was already at that article, working with you and others. Legitimus was already at the article as well. Cantor was barely participating. Legitimus was barely participating. Herostratus hadn't even participated. When you created that aforementioned Stagnant section on the talk page, essentially demanding that the article continue to be designed the way that you want it designed or else you'll make the article the way that you want it yourself, I called you out on that and that's when things got unpleasant yet again at the talk page. Then they got ugly when you suggested that we are doing a disservice to Misplaced Pages by not revealing our true (real life) identities while editing this topic.

Your assertion that I am "the real hindrance to productive collaboration in opinion and should have stayed banned from Misplaced Pages." is ludicrous, as even MrADHD, who propelled more eyes on the article due to concerns that the debate/controversy regarding the hebephilia diagnosis was being significantly downplayed, has made clear. I wasn't one of those editors reverting MrADHD. I was also never banned from Misplaced Pages. I was blocked. And Alison, the administrator/CheckUser who indefinitely blocked me, made it abundantly clear that I was wrongly indefinitely blocked. If others need her to weigh in about that and my conduct on Misplaced Pages, I'm sure that she would be more than happy to do so. And if it were me that you mostly have/had a problem with at the Hebephilia article, things would have gotten ugly between us before the Stagnant section because of how you treat those you dislike. But, no, who did things repeatedly get ugly between? You and Cantor. And as for me responding every single time to people I dislike... Why should I not respond to people making baseless claims against me, other than the fact that I am clearly rising to the bait?

Your claims above are nothing but a smear campaign against me. Flyer22 (talk) 22:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Oversight

I just checked the edits in question, and they have been oversighted. This basically flips the issue around, and should be rephrased to why Flyer22 reinstated obvious BLP issues, and when she could not keep those in the article, running here to get the person who tries to remove those BLP punished. -- Kim van der Linde 20:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

A section devoted to me? Your obsession with me is pathetic. And the way that you often act unprofessional/childish (for example, being unable to work with someone you hate without bickering with them) has made me and many others (such as people at WP:BIRD) wonder how you ever were granted administrative rights. Reporting Jokestress was clearly about more than her tampering with others' edits. And as all others above have agreed, what I reported goes far beyond the refractoring of comments. While you're querying answers, you should also ask the uninvolved editors why they also viewed Jokestress's tampering with others' comments as inappropriate. Flyer22 (talk) 21:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Being uninvolved, I saw those edits and they seemed like they were hypothetical statements. Maybe oversight had to get the backstory in order to deem them BLP, but at glance they didn't seem that way.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The details of this story have been rehashed many times in context of the disputed articles, and Flyer is very well aware of the details of that situation. An uninvolved editor might have been a different situation. -- Kim van der Linde 02:28, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

The details of this story have not been rehashed many times in context of the articles I frequent, including the Hebephilia article (as the article's talk page and its currently only archive show). I'm not yet as familiar with the details as Cantor or Legitimus. And Legitimus and Herostratus messed up on their wording. My initial "We only have her word that they are WP:BLP violations." line, which I crossed out, shows what my mindset was. If anyone wants to WP:Assume bad faith and state that I was pretending, then whatever. But it would be ridiculous for me to assert what I did, as if the opposite wouldn't be proven. Flyer22 (talk) 02:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

If one removes from Jokestress’ comment the poison to get to the facts, one finds there are no facts at all, just a lot of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and trying to tell people what I think (but don’t), what I believe (but don’t), and what I want (but don’t). The only “evidence” that I think/believe/say such things is what scholars of rhetoric call “the association fallacy.” (If I and someone else can be fit into whatever degrees of separation, then I too am guilty of whatever crime the other person has committed in her eyes.)

As many here have already recognized, the problem is one of politics. To folks who do not study it closely, the GLBT communities can seem to have a uniform agenda (that being GLBT rights), and opposing it is dichotomously homophobic (or to risk being so accused). For anyone who attends them, meetings of GLBT activists are famously fraught with the “drama” over opposing flavors of political persuasions. However, the gay and lesbian movement (I am purposefully leaving out bi- and trans-) evolves. When I was first in school, it was politically incorrect ever to say that G/L folks were ever any different from straight folks. As G/L issues became mainstream, however, it become not only okay to acknowledge the differences, but even to do so affectionately and humorously. (Gay men being into fashion was an offensive stereotype in the 1980s, but now it appears on Will & Grace reruns and forms an entire marketing strategy.)

The trans- movement is, naturally, at an earlier point in this evolution. It is still politically incorrect to say that trans- folks are anything other than literally ‘women trapped in male bodies’ (or vice versa), and we are not yet at the point where many writers feel comfortable saying that there DO exist meaningful differences between natal women and transwomen (or men). When it comes to civil rights and certain other issues, the women-trapped-in-male-bodies can be a helpful metaphor. However, to a sex researcher studying (for example) the brain, it is not literally true. Unfortunately, saying so has become sufficient evidence that the speaker must be transphobic, incompetent, self-aggrandizing, or whatever. It is no accident that Jokestress’ complaints about me are not about what I actually say or do, but about what she believes or tries to get others to believe I >think< (but don’t).

Over the years, I have stopped bothering to correct the oft-repeated misstatements about what I think, but for the record:

• I oppose reparative therapy. (Even though I am a member of APA, I am well known for criticizing their lack of action on the topic.)
• I have and do publicly support the rights of the widest range sexual diversity imaginable, wider than any activist, scientist, or author anywhere. Although I have been very explicit to include the many kinds of gender transpositions, I am much more noted for defending the rights even of pedophiles. To insinuate that I somehow support rights for everyone from gay to pedophilic—but not for transsexuals—is frankly bizarre.
• That WP sexology pages were doing fine when only Jokestress was here (2003+) but got disturbed from NPOV when until I arrived (2008) is also a rather frank denial of reality. Anyone is free to compare the before and after of the pages relevant to Jokestress’ off-wiki attacks, such as J. Michael Bailey and The Man Who Would Be Queen.

— James Cantor (talk) 21:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

James Cantor and I are in complete agreement that there are political issues here. This is about politics, labels, and definitions.

• James Cantor has been described as an activist in peer-reviewed publications (an activist minority in the field, no less). He refuses to acknowledge he is an activist.
• James Cantor opposes reparative therapy for gays and lesbians, but supports reparative therapy for gender-variant children. He refuses to acknowledge the "therapeutic intervention" he supports is reparative therapy.
• James Cantor makes a great show of supporting the rights of people, but much of his work is around claiming gays and straights are "euphilic," a word he created and attempted to add to Misplaced Pages as part of his incessant self-promotion. By pathologizing and distinguishing his own sexual orientation from other sexual minorities, he is merely repeating the history of medicalization that used to be done to gays and lesbians (mental disorder label, reparative therapy, etc.). His recent attempt to make "hebephilia" a mental disorder failed outside Misplaced Pages, so now he uses a group of allies here to push his politics.
• I have written a vast array of psychology articles related to paraphilia, including biographies of many of the main experts. I believe those edits are pretty consistently of the highest quality. I work on many topic where I find the concept problematic because few editors are willing to apply policy to those kinds of articles.

Anything that happens at this AN/I should be applied evenly to all parties, and then we can head over to Arbcom if needed after that. I reiterate my proposal of interaction bans for all, including with each other in every direction. These guys are playing a little chess game where if they get me at the price of one or more of them, they still have several players on their team in play. I have been on set all week and not really able to give this matter the time it deserves. I believe Cantor's pattern of editing needs a much more serious evaluation. The real problem here at this AN/I (in order) is Flyer22, Herostratus, Legitimus, and WLU. Cantor and I should probably go to Arbcom with his voting bloc once this is settled here. Jokestress (talk) 23:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

The real problem in this ANI discussion? The only problems I see in this ANI discussion are the bickering, false accusations/false claims and baiting. But as for the real problem concerning this whole matter, apart from the problems that have risen in this ANI discussion, most people (here in this ANI discussion) have agreed that it is mostly the toxic history between you and Cantor...because it has negatively affected the Misplaced Pages environment for years...and the way you conduct yourself on Misplaced Pages regarding other editors you don't like. Flyer22 (talk) 00:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As I noted already, I long ago stopped trying to correct Jokestress’ spin-doctoring. Nonetheless, her above list provides a good example of the problem, for those who would like to check her claims:

1. Actually, there is only Karen Franklin, a psychologist and defense expert witness, who said in a single article, without exactly naming me specifically, that she believes there exists such a minority. Incidentally, Franklin’s article was riddled with factual errors (available here), which Franklin refused to address when confronted with them. Readers can decide if Jokestress is providing a faithful (neutral) description of the truth.
2. Actually, it has long been shown by several studies that the usual course of gender variant kids is, in about 80% of cases, for the gender dysphoria to stop by puberty, after which they instead identify as plain vanilla gay/lesbian. The other 20% do continue to desire transition, although many wait until graduation or other “clean break” with their social groups. I therefore generally advocate therapy to help the kid and family adjust to both the present and the most likely future, holding off on irreversible decisions (such as castration) until we are sure about the individual case. Readers can decide whether Jokestress’ use of “reparative therapy” is an accurate or misleading description of my views.
3. Much of my work? Of the many dozens of articles, book chapters, etc. that I’ve written, I wrote one, in response to a question I was assigned about whether homosexuality counts as a paraphilia. After reviewing the known correlates of both, my conclusion was:

Overall, homosexuality and the paraphilias appear to share the features of onset and course (both homosexuality and paraphilia being life-long), but they appear to differ on sex ratio, fraternal birth order, handedness, IQ and cognitive profile, and neuroanatomy. onsidered together, the existing data seem more consistent with the conclusion that homosexuality is a characteristic distinct from the paraphilias….Because only few paraphilic interests have received much scientific attention, it also remains possible that each paraphilia is associated with its own, novel set of correlates, and that homosexuality is no more novel in its profile of correlates than would be any other paraphilic interest. Thus, although homosexuality is probably better said to be distinct from the paraphilias, that conclusion is still quite tentative. The complete article is available here.

4. It is true, however, that Jokestress has written a vast array of articles in psychology. The extent to which they are accurate is again up to readers to decide.

— James Cantor (talk) 14:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Facts:

1. The Franklin paper describing James Cantor's role in the field's activist minority is here: After attacking her offsite, he attacked her here by tampering with her Misplaced Pages biography to make her seem less notable and credible:
2. You can read about the reparative therapy James Cantor supports for trans children in many publications:
3. You can see him self-promotionally add a word he made up, "euphilic," here: Nearly every edit he makes has an element of self-promotion. Pick any one at random and you will see.
4. I'll stack my record and reputation on this project against his self-promotional activity here any day.

Jokestress (talk) 15:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: People can refer to the Gender identity disorder (GID) and Gender identity disorder in children (GIDC) articles for what Cantor means about GID in children being clinically distinct from GID that appears in adolescence or adulthood, and that those diagnosed with GID in childhood usually cease to desire to be the other sex by puberty, with most growing up to identify as gay or lesbian...with or without therapeutic intervention. Flyer22 (talk) 16:49, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

This are best answered in reverse order. So:

4. Jokestress is right. Other than in the sexology articles, Jokestress’ record DOES and SHOULD so stack against mine. The problem is that edits need to be decided by their content and WP policy, but instead are being approved/opposed for any reasons but that: At first they would opposed if they seemed positive towards someone Jokestress disliked, then if they came from me personally (no matter what the content was), then if they seemed or could seem positive towards me (no matter who said it), then if they came from anyone who ever agreed with me (no matter the topic). The most florid example of this was probably at Peggy Kleinplatz: Jokestress first opposed my edits erroneously arguing that I was biased against the subject, but then switched to opposing the very same edit, now arguing that I was biased TOWARDS the subject. Neither was true; the only constant was that if the edit came from me, it was going to be opposed, the consensus disagreeing with Jokestress (but being accused, of course, of bias).

3. In the past four or so years, the pages I’ve edited the most have been: 1. List of paraphilias. The great majority of my edits have been exactly the same: reverting vandalism. 2. Sexual addiction. Not a single cite to myself. 3. Sexology. Not a single cite to myself. 4. Hypersexuality. Not a single cite to myself…

Moreover, as per WP:COS, it is perfectly acceptable for experts to cite themselves (within the usual constraints) including proportionate to their representation in the literature. These are the most cited works about pedophilia of the past 10 years. Of the 10,700 entries, my colleagues and I wrote 9 of the top 20. Anyone checking the pedophilia article will see, not that I/we are at all overrepresented, but that, if anything, someone has been very successful at disappearing us.

2. Incorrect. Indeed, I am not mentioned in any of those articles at all. As already noted: Most of the is opposition centres on what I allegedly say (and don’t), what I think (but don’t), and what I want (but don’t).

1. Correct. Franklin said/believes that, and it is perfectly reasonable to note it. But it is UNreasonable to have made it seem like it was much grander than that.

— James Cantor (talk) 22:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The issue of GID in children is incredibly controversial; it was one of the major reasons why the National Gay and Lesbian Taskforce opposed Ken Zucker's and Ray Blanchard's appointments to the DSM-V working group on paraphilias; they argued that Blanchard and Zucker and their colleagues are complicit in pushing unscientific and harmful theories that pathologised "commonplace expressions of sexuality and gender"; indeed, Zucker says that parents who allow their children to experiment with their gender expression are guilty of child neglect (and in one case, accused parents of a trans child of "being swayed by a transsexual agenda"). I'd be very careful before treating anything trans-related coming out of CAMH as anything more than a moralistic fringe theory; as the Spitzer controversy showed very clearly, this sort of theory wouldn't be tolerated were it to do with homosexuality (and really, Spitzer hedged his bets a lot more than Zucker does). I'm also very concerned by the diff to Karen Franklin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) that Jokestress has provided, as it shows that Cantor, at the very least, is not averse to COI/POV-pushing. Sceptre 19:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Opinion - for what it's worth, I agree with what Herostratus said here - I am also afraid of Jokestress getting a hold of my real-life identity and undertaking real-life actions against me. I am further concerned that Jokestress might knows this, and initiates discussions like this one and comments like this one as a way of chilling the discussion and opposition. I don't think that ANI is equipped to deal with this; to truly understand my concerns, participants would probably have to read a lengthy article, and I doubt anyone wants to do so. If Jokestress does not realize the effect her comments have on other editors, then I am happy to have brought it to her attention. I hope she lets the entire topic of the real-life identities of other editors drop; they are irrelevant, as all pages are based on a summary of reliable sources - not editor opinion. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 23:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

This is serious concern. There are real life consequences involved outside of the pedia, or at least the perception exists. I wonder if Arbcom should just address this instead.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  02:18, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is obviously very concerning. Has Jokestress continued to make these sorts of edits since they were brought up in this thread? Has she behaved in this way regarding any subject that would not be covered by the proposed topic ban (sexology and paraphilias, broadly interpreted)? If the answer to either of them is "yes", then I think we have no options beyond a trip to arbcom. However, if she hasn't then I'm still of the opinion that we should at least attempt the topic and interaction bans - if she abides by them then there should be no reason for her to interact with other editors in this manner (not that doing so is ever justifiable). There is little point in bringing a dispute to arbitration prematurely, as it makes the arbs more reluctant to accept a case if it subsequently does reach that level. While my opinion is that this is closer to requiring arbitration than I initially thought, I still think we as a community have a duty to attempt to solve it first. Thryduulf (talk) 11:50, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Opinion. Do others not see the pattern here? These editors like WLU publish or reinsert actionable libel about me, then say they are afraid of real-life consequences when I have their edits removed per WP:TPO and WP:Oversight. Is that logical? If they are afraid of me, why would they be aggressively attacking me and my reputation, to the point of exposing themselves to real-life consequences? Are they trying to get me to make a legal threat? Are they just trolling me in hopes of an angry response they can report here as threatening behavior? Are they trying to topic ban me for simply asking if they had undisclosed conflicts of interest? No matter what I do, even simply trying to defend myself from utterly outrageous accusations, they claim I am threatening them or disrupting the project. I can't believe some editors don't see what's going on here. Even though I am their current target, it's kind of impressive to watch how they operate. The alleged chilling effect I have as a scary threat to them or their "real lives" doesn't seem to be having any effect on their output here or elsewhere. Maybe, just maybe, they aren't afraid at all and just don't like me or my tone? Maybe, just maybe, they don't want to collaborate with me in the productive way I have collaborated with tens of thousands of other editors on some of the project's most controversial topics, like pregnancy from rape, race and intelligence, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, etc.? Their falsely stating that I committed felonies seems more problematic than my encouraging them to disclose any conflicts of interest. Yet I am the primary target of sanctions. I am glad many edtors here see through this ruse. Jokestress (talk) 15:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

WLU does not operate that way. WLU can be tough in difficult editing environments but does not play dirty. If WLU is wrong in what he says it will be a good faithed mistake or else mud has stuck to you that your opponents threw at you which is giving you a reputation bias. You have at times come across hostile Jokestress so at times you have done yourself a disservice. I do agree that the focus being solely on you is not fair as it is a complicated POV battleground and requires ArbCom to figure everything out.--MrADHD | T@1k? 15:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Jokestress, I consider the now-oversighted comments a minor inaccuracy and irrelevancy that distracts from the greater issue and concern, which is again the chilling effect that your comments can have on talk pages. Please realize that when you make such comments to me and Herostratus (at minimum) in the future, it will be very hard to assume good faith over them and will look more and more like you are attempting intimidation. We have good reason to worry about your possible actions, J. Michael Bailey's life was rather hellish for a long while, in no small part because of your actions taken in response to what should have been a minor scholarly debate. All you have to do is stop making them and the issue goes away.

I've never accused you of a felony, my contribution to what you call "libel" consisted of a single revert of edits you made to someone else's comments. That editor has since noted that their statement is inaccurate, and in fact could have been resolved without the need for oversight by indicating what the specific, and rather minor inaccuracy was - that the pictures of Bailey's children you captioned were from his homepage, not elsewhere. I was less concerned over the accuracy of the statement than I was over the change to another's comments.

If you never again bring up the issue of others' real-life identities again, I doubt I will have any further concerns as superficially your contributions to pages are civil enough.

I don't see this discussion going much further, so I will try to leave it be. Hebephilia requires a lot of attention as there are still many sources to be integrated. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Wait, which "minor scholarly debate" made J. Michael Bailey's life hellish?

• When he orchestrated the live fucksaw demonstration, causing him to lose his signature class, making him a sexologist prohibited from teaching the Human Sexuality course?
• When he took images of elementary school-age trans children without their knowledge or consent and displayed them in a manner that provoked laughter and categorized their sexuality, causing a formal investigation which led to sealed findings and his resignation as department chair?
• When he claimed that he "found" that bisexual men are all liars, causing a media firestorm?
• When he claimed that being gay is "evolutionarily maladaptive," causing a media firestorm?
• When he claimed that screening for and aborting gay fetuses is "morally acceptable" and a parental right, causing a media firestorm?
• When he claimed that (hi Herostratus!) "persuasive evidence for the harmfulness of pedophilic relationships does not yet exist,” causing a media firestorm?

Maybe what you consider J. Michael Bailey's "minor scholarly debates" are in fact some of the most controversial and deliberately provocative incidents in a discipline full of them? This isn't some poor widdle innocent victim. He's a professional academic troll. He gets money and infamy for doing some of the most outrageous and irresponsible stunts in his entire controversial field. He clearly gets off on stirring things up. Your desire to downplay his antics mirrors your own attempts to downplay your own antics in this case. You did not simply make "a single revert." You reinserted actionable libel over my multiple objections, then tried to get ME sanctioned as if I am the problem here. Your protests of innocence and claims of victimization may fool some of the people some of the time, just like Bailey, but taken as a whole, your style of interaction with me is a subtle, pervasive, and insidious form of trolling. You aren't scared of me at all, or you wouldn't be harassing me the way you do. You have an undisclosed COI in this matter that informs your editing on certain topics, but I can't even bring it up without being accused of "outing" you or "intimidating" you. It's a double standard in which you have the upper hand. You can make such claims about me due to my transparency and use of my real name, yet I can't even ask about your own personal motivations in editing this topic. I am prepared to outline on your problematic behavior in another venue if any sanctions are not applied evenly all around. Some methods of trolling, like yours, may seem "minor" to others, when they are in fact quite serious to the person being attacked (in this case, me). Having said all that, I have also noted that I believe we work together just fine when you are not trying to get rid of me via your little alliance and this silly drama. If you agree to stop playing little games as you are here, I am happy to get back to improving the article in question. Barring that, I call for sanctions all around. Jokestress (talk) 21:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not sure what Jokestress means by "many edtors here see through this ruse," but it was already clarified that "photographing people out in public in situations where there is no expectation of privacy is not illegal. Otherwise the staff of TMZ would all be behind bars." I'm not aware of any place where it's illegal in the United States. Flyer22 (talk) 17:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Pratyeka abusing admin power

Pratyeka (talk · contribs)

User:Pratyeka became an admin back in 2003, back when RFA was a lot simpler. On more than one occasion, Pratyeka has restored pages that had been deleted via AFD without without any discussion or fixing the issues with the page, instead acting within his own opinion. Observe Hack Make and Nemerle were both deleted via AFD after the discusions ended with a delete consenus, see (WP:Articles for deletion/Observe Hack Make and WP:Articles for deletion/Nemerle. Despite this, Pratyeka restored the pages without a DRV or addressing the problems. He also restored Coral Consortium which was deleted for being a copy right violation with the comment "please identify the specific section(s) infringing copyright, as IMHO this article is actually useful and unique". The fact that he used the phrase IMHO, clearly shows that he was acting based on his own opinion and ignoring policy. Pratyeka also has restored many articles that were deleted via PROD without fixing the problem such as OMAPI. While technically, that is not an abuse of power, it is not a good use of it either. JDDJS (talk) 21:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

pratyeka and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but have you tried to discuss this with the editor at all? Aside from the ANI notice you've never edited his talk page, and the instructions at the top of this page say "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page" so was there a discussion somewhere else that I'm just not seeing? I'm not saying it was proper to restore them (though one of them happened over two years ago), JamesBWatson already commented about this on prat's talk page, and unless the activity continues, is there something else you think should be done that JamesBWatson hasn't already done? - SudoGhost 21:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

SudoGhost - there wasn't any discussion between JDDJS and Pratyeka, but other editors have raised the issue on Prat's talk here. m.o.p 22:01, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I saw that (after responding), but it seems like the issue was already taken care of before it was brought to AN/I. I guess what I'm getting at is that other than what admins have already done, which is to discuss it on prat's talk page, what is it an AN/I discussion is supposed to accomplish? I think at this point the only thing that would really happen is for others to go "hey that was wrong, don't do it again", and that's already happened. Unless it continues after that I don't really see a huge need for anything else. - SudoGhost 22:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

What's required is for Pratyeka to say "hey that was wrong, I won't do it again".—Kww(talk) 22:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that at all but AN/I can't do that for him. - SudoGhost 22:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

To correct JDDJS's opening statement here; there was a DRV in the case of Nemerle, and the deletion was overturned, so Pratyeka isn't in the wrong there (though the language used to undelete - "Clearly notable within the global computing community. Deletion misguided. Apologies" - doesn't sit well with me, as it's citing an opinion when it should just be following process).

However, bringing back Observe Hack Make is what I'm concerned about, due to the fact that Pratyeka did not re-create the page with solid sourcing or attempt to improve it; he just restored it (using admin rights), again citing "Very large/well known, serial, hacking event. Awaited for over 3/4 years. Not crystal ball/advertising." as his reason. I, for one, don't believe administrators should be using their tools to do things they could do as editors; nor should they use their tools to step around community consensus. m.o.p 22:01, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I've commented on Pratyeka's talk page as well. I'm concerned that an admin appears to be using their extra buttons to undo community consensus that they disagree with (I'm looking specifically at Observe Hack Make in this case). It would certainly be helpful if Pratyeka would agree to refrain from using the undelete option when he personally disagrees with the result of an AfD. --Jezebel'sPonyo 22:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Nemerle deletion was overturned at DRV NE Ent 21:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

The actions regarding Observe Hack Make were clearly inappropriate. The more frightening thing to me is that the discussion at Prateyka's talk page makes it clear that he doesn't understand that he isn't permitted to unilaterally overrule an AFD and has to go through DRV like everybody else.—Kww(talk) 22:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

...indeed. To be very blunt about it the reply made by Pratyeka to the original query on his talk page about the Hack/Make undeletion raises serious questions in my mind as to whether he has the required understanding of policy to be an admin. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Had this been a personal conflict between the two of us, I would have discussed this with Partyeka first. However this is not a personal issue; this a case of an admin using his power against consensus. About Nemerle, originally I thought that he restored before the DRV was started, but it turns out he restored it in the middle of the DRV, which is still an abuse of his power because he did not wait for the discussion to end, and it does not appear that the DRV even influenced his restoration at all. JDDJS (talk) 22:15, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

It's still preferable to discuss the with editor on their talk page first -- maybe they'll agree with you and agree to change their ways. Never know until you try. NE Ent 22:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• If DRV was like it is now, recreation of the article could have still been in process to allow people to !vote at the DRV. This was not the case, but recreating something during a DRV (if you follow the proper steps) is not necessarily an abuse of the mop. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

But he did not follow the proper steps. He clearly just disagreed with the consensus so he ignored it. JDDJS (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Notice how I was replying to "an abuse of his power because he did not wait for the discussion to end," by stating that waiting for the discussion to the end is not, technically, required. I also noted that this particular case was not in line with policy... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

James B Watson just started discussion at 2100 UTC and an ANI thread is opened at 2146 UTC? Too quick, give the guy a chance to answer before we start heating up the tar. NE Ent 22:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, User:Wtshymanski bought this up on his page over a week ago. He responded that the deletion was in error, which is a clear indicator that he doesn't know that there is a limit to his power. JDDJS (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, the discussion on his talk page started at 14:27 UTC, 15 January 2013 . And the response to that clearly indicates that there is a serious problem here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Given that prat hasn't edited in 6 days I think maybe JamesBWatson's comment should have been enough for the moment; one person saying "I disagree" is one thing, when another person steps in and says the same thing it becomes a different situation. If prat continued to assert it was fine or continued the behavior it would be one thing, but what is AN/I going to do that JamesBWatson hasn't already done? - SudoGhost 22:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

He should have his admin privileges revoked. He obviously does not have enough understanding of policy at the moment. He should be allowed to reapply for adminship if he demonstrates that he know has the proper knowledge of policy to be an admin. JDDJS (talk) 22:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I've seen what it takes to desysop someone, and if you opened the AN/I discussion just to try to get him desysopped I'd say the chances of that happening as of this moment are pretty much zero. If he continues to restore pages like that that would be another story, but at this point desysopping is unlikely. Given that (to my knowledge) this isn't some recurring issue that he's been warned about before, a warning that this isn't acceptable behavior is the most I see happening. That warning should certainly happen, and indeed already happened before you opened the AN/I discussion. The only thing I see that needs to happen is that prat needs to acknowledge that this isn't acceptable, and not to do it again. - SudoGhost 22:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes. It would take more than this to desysop. I hope he acknowledges the problem and stops. Should he choose not to externally acknowledge the problem but stop anyway, nothing much is going to happen. The only path from here to desysop is to refuse to acknowledge and to continue doing things like this.—Kww(talk) 22:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. We should wait (a little while) for a response. If he demonstrates he understands, and won't be doing it again, no problem. If not, his judgment can't be trusted wrt recreating any articles and we can ban him from recreating any deleted articles. Presumably, he'll abide by that - if he doesn't, desysopping should take five minutes at ArbCom. He needs to actually address the community's concern. You (plural) are answerable to the community, whether you personally like it or not. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you as to what should happen: a clear statement that he doesn't understand that what he has done is wrong should be enough to take action on. I'll stand by my prediction, though: unless he continues after this warning, not much will actually happen.—Kww(talk) 23:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, a clear statement that he doesn't understand should certainly prompt action, but so should ignoring the community's concern. You are answerable. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't not responding to this ANI be the same thing as a "clear statement that he doesn't understand that what he has done is wrong"? JDDJS (talk) 23:17, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

He already has clearly indicated that he doesn't view what he did as wrong.—Kww(talk) 23:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

That was before he had the benefit of reading the views expressed in this thread. Give him time to consider his position. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think that it is a serious problem when admins clearly do not understand policy. As I said in my opening statement, this is not the only case of him overusing his admin tools. The only reason why he became an admin in the first place is that RFA was a lot simpler when he became an admin, all you had to do was be around for awhile and have some useful edits. He certainly would not pass a current RFA due to his lack of policy understanding. JDDJS (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I am an inclusionist. Deletion is a last resort. It's shocking to see so much discussion about something so simple as restoring an article that clearly shouldn't have been deleted. Having said that, it's true that I joined Misplaced Pages a long time ago. I have not followed all of the policies' development, as I don't have time. But before assuming I am all out to get your policies and overturn your important bygone misinformed decisionmaking with self-labelled 'consensus' (one could almost say: "by self-appointed '(temporary) ministry of truth' committees", but I should probably avoid that), I'm just going to be honest and say that I make all edits in good faith, including this one. It occurs to me that if half of the effort bickering about this undeletion and policy could have been used to enhance the very valid article, then we would all be wealthier. I am going to go further and state something slightly obvious, which is that the notion of 'consensus' for deleting an article in Misplaced Pages is fundamentally flawed in multiple ways. Given that it's imperfect, given that some of us have been around and proven we are net contributors in good faith, what's the point of having admin powers and expert domain knowledge (I have been involved in the 'hacker' community since ~1995) if you can't press the undelete button for a huge and well known event, attended by loads of famous people (as mentioned during the restore!), that given it's quadrennial frequency it's fair to say is about to occur? I regret to say that for some time this will be my only opportunity comment on this discussion, as I am exceptionally busy and largely offline with travelling in the wilds of Zomia (behind the Great Firewall of China) before Chinese New Year. If you would like me to comment further, please post to my talk page and allow a few weeks for a response. Thanks for your collective understanding and apologies if anyone got their feathers ruffled. Also, thanks for your support SudoGhost, even though we don't always see eye to eye (re: recent issues on Bitcoin!), it's certainly a meaningful gesture. With the hopes that nobody is offended or upset, we can all get back to adding and editing useful and historic content: peace and love to all in the new year... prat (talk) 01:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

PS. Considering the edit a bit more, I think as well as giving a resonable case I was also working to the 'be bold' policy. Now please relax and sorry if anyone involved in the mistaken deletion was upset by the undelete. Sometimes we are all wrong. In this case, the deletion was wrong, though the net effect (discouraging the article to grow too far until close to the event) is probably a reasonable outcome for all. PLUR. prat (talk) 01:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Using your admin tools to restore an article deleted via consensus at WP:AfD based on your own personal belief that it should not be deleted is so not on. Venues for contesting deletion are as available to you as they are to any other editor. How many times do we try to explain to non-administrators that having the tools and being an admin is "no big deal", only to have you completely use them out of process to further your own personal agenda? It's unacceptable, and if it happens again I will support any request that your access to the admin buttons be removed. --Jezebel'sPonyo 01:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Pratyeka should have gone through DRV, as overturning consensus by fiat is not what adminship is about. Reyk _YO! 01:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Undeletion

In a move that belies my exclusionist underpinnings, I've undeleted Extreme transaction processing. The article would appear to be complete crap in my eyes, but I can't see a G6 deletion as being even remotely justifiable.—Kww(talk) 06:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Goodness. That should not have been deleted. This should go to ArbCom (if someone gets the guts to actually file...) --Rschen7754 07:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oh dear, that was a shockingly bad deletion. And yes, if nobody has started an ArbCom request when I'm done with my paid work for the day, I'll be happy to do it - assuming the consensus is still going in the same direction it is now. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused. Was this a bad deletion or a page move from Extreme transaction processing to Extreme Transaction Processing? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Given the timeframes, it was a bad deletion followed months later by the creation of a similar article with nearly the same name.—Kww(talk) 15:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal that Pratyeka be banned from undeleting deleted articles

• Support as proposer. Clearly he can't be trusted to perform that task in accordance with community consensus and policy. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Support He refuses to admit that he did anything wrong by ignoring consensus, and does not show any indication that he won't do it again. I feel that he should be completely desyposed, but I will settle for an undeletion ban. JDDJS (talk) 02:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Overkill. Concerns have been raised ... if he continues to undelete stuff in the future then we can talk about bans. It's not like he's going rogue blocking editors or FPPing articles or getting in protracted pissing contests with editors... on the scale of wiki-crap, undeleting a sketchy article isn't very high. If he hasn't had major issues in eight years it's unlikely he'll be doing significant damage in 2012. NE Ent 02:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

It's not at all overkill. Personally I feel that it is not enough and that he should lose all admin rights. He has used his admin powers to completely bypass consensus and has refused to admit any wrong doing, giving every indication that he will do it again. JDDJS (talk) 02:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support and send to ArbCom. Prat's comment that he is an inclusionist does not help his position. I'm a deletionist, and were I an admin who deleted articles arbitrarily, I would drawn, hung, and quartered, with my body parts being sent for display to the four corners of the WP empire. He is given the bit as a trust, not to make his own decisions to override the community. The comment that the deletion was made "in error" shows that he has no idea of limitation by community consensus. GregJackP Boomer! 02:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support The arrogance of the statement he left above is staggering. Anyone who declares their own judgement overrides consensus shouldn't be an admin. At the very least he should not be allowed to delete articles, especially because he admits he isn't up to speed on policy. Performing controversial actions right before taking an extended break is extremely poor form as well. AniMate 02:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per the tree. Looks like the problem is resolved.   little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  02:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Can you please elaborate on that? The problem is that he refuses to abide by community consensus. That problem has not been resolved. JDDJS (talk) 02:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I would like to know also. He just said "misinformed decisionmaking with self-labelled 'consensus'" and "what's the point of having admin powers and expert domain knowledge ... if you can't press the undelete button...." Where does this show any intention on his part of abiding by community consensus? The problem is definitely not resolved. As a matter of fact, the more I think of this, the more I believe that he should be de-sysoped. GregJackP Boomer! 03:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

He said it was a mistake, and I'm willing to AGF that it was a mistake.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  03:36, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

No, he never said that it was mistake. In fact, he has said the complete opposite, and that consensus was a mistake. JDDJS (talk) 03:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, he said the deletion by the community was a mistake, and that his action in undeleting the article, without DRV or consensus was proper. If you can show me where he said that he made a mistake, I would re-consider my position. GregJackP Boomer! 03:47, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I completely misread the statement above where I thought he was claiming he made a mistake. I will strike my !vote.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  16:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• You know, it's really not clear to me ANI can "topic ban" an admin from undeleting -- that's kind of a mini-desysop and that's reserved to ArbCom and the stewards and maybe Jimbo if decides to be the founder again. NE Ent 03:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

ANI clearly has that authority. We can topic ban anyone, or for that matter, site ban them.GregJackP Boomer! 03:24, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

If you can find a resolution from the Foundation that disallows the community from constraining the behaviour of an editor, please bring it forward. I'm not aware of one, so suggest we proceed under the assumption that community consensus applies when it comes to constraining the behaviour of individual users. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strongest possible support - It's clear from the above that Prat has no clue when it comes to Misplaced Pages's deletion policies, instead repeating his accusations (to the point where they could be considered personal attacks) of "mistaken deletion" above and mainitaining that he has done nothing wrong, and claiming that based on his "expert domain knowledge" he knows better than we do about how things should be run. This is not the kind of person Misplaced Pages needs as an admin. At all. Admins abide by community consensus and policy, they are not autocrats pulling strings "because I think this is how it should be done". Frankly if I didn't know better I'd be half tempted to call it some form of elaborate trolling, as I find it nearly impossible to believe that anybody who has been around the Misplaced Pages community for the length of time he has could possibly hold such views as he espouses above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support Report to ArbCom given the arrogance shown in the response above, and the insistence that he was right to overrule consensus unilaterally. In my view, admins who abuse the tools to enforce their own opinions over the consensus of the Community, and then insist it was fine for them to do so, should be instantly desysoped. Anyone who said in an RfA today "I intend to use the tools to overrule the community when I disagree with consensus", would be snowed out. Admins who not only actually do it, but then go on to defend their actions and insist they have the right to do it, should be shown the door. Unfortunately, the community doesn't have the balls to put in place a proper means to get rid of rogue admins, so I'll have to settle for this topic ban instead, at least for now. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Actually, on further reflection, I think a ban on undeleting is not sufficient, because this is not specifically an undeletion problem - it's the classic "arrogant old school admin" problem. Both here and on his Talk page, Pratyeka continues to insist on his right to use his admin tools to override community consensus when he thinks it's wrong, even after reading this report here and reading the comments on his talk page. Unless we get a commitment to change that, we need his admin tools removed - maybe an admonishment from ArbCom would convince him? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 03:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Send to ARBCOM -- Can the community ban an admin from using the bit at all? If so, it's the same as removing the bit. Are we saying the community could do this, or is this "partial ban" fundamentally different? I'm actually okay with letting the community remove the bit by subject ban, I just don't think it is in alignment with our standard procedures and I think everyone should realize exactly what the ramifications of this might be in the long term. I'd suggest sending this to ARBCOM instead. In any case, isn't AN a better location for this discussion? Hobit (talk) 03:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, we're not taking the bit off him, I believe that's something only ArbCom and Jimbo can do. We're telling him not to use a part of it. We don't need ArbCom's permission for that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

That's what's unclear to me. Are you saying we can't desysop as a community, but we can ban someone from using the bit and block them if they do? That sounds very strange. As if we are subverting the intent of letting Arbcom be the only place for desysoping. I'd personally support an RfC allowing the community to do this (though I'd say it should be at AN, not ANI), but feel such an RfC should happen first. Hobit (talk) 14:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strongest possible support for ArbCom, partial ban, desysop, you name it. I don't mind admins ignoring all rules, but no one with this attitude toward collaboration should have the bit. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:48, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The editor has made some declarations on his user page specifically regarding article deletion, which goes precisely to the matter at hand. Given those declarations, and his above comment, I think it is reasonable for us to constrain him from undeleting. But he seems an intelligent and decent chap, and I see no reason whatever to assume he won't be responsible and valuable in his use of admin rights outside this very narrow area, so think it would be overreacting to desysop. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

But it's not just an undeletion problem - he is openly insisting that (as an admin and expert) he has the right to overrule consensus. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

You may be right. I don't know. I do know we should give him time to absorb what's happening here, and reflect. This is a paradigm shift for him and, for me at least, paradigm shifts take at least a day or so. Go slowly. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:48, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Sure - there's still plenty of time for him to agree never again to use the admin tools to override consensus or against policy (eg to reinstate copyright infringements - see "Possibly even more serious" Starblind comment below). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support undeletion ban (and desysop if necessary). It's one thing to have strong views that aren't necessarily supported by the community, it's another thing entirely to use sysop powers against community consensus. Any admin candidate at RFA threatening to ignore consensus would be quite rightly SNOWed out to the tune of gales of laughter. Admins exist to serve the community, not oppose it, and anyone who doesn't understand that shouldn't be an admin. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

If this proposal passes, and he undletes anything again, I'm sure the consequence will be a SNOW five minute desysop at ArbCom. For that matter, if he demonstrates a disregard for policy or consensus in another area, I expect the result would be the same. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Send to ArbCom Yes, it was bad, but to topic ban an admin from performing any action in the toolset would be a significant shift in community consensus. --Rschen7754 04:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • To expand upon my comments, I don't trust him to delete anything either. And I don't trust him to respect community consensus. That makes him unfit to remain as an admin, in my book. --Rschen7754 04:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. (Totally uninvolved editor here - just happened to see this). The adoration for process expressed in the comments above explicitly and implicitly is what is killing WP. Arbcom? Desysop? Ban from undeleting? For this? Please. LIke Prat says, if the energy spent on this was spent on improving articles, most deletions would not be required. Obscure articles of poor quality has to be one of our least important problems. So if some of them are rescued where is the harm? And in many case there is benefit. We need more editors who behave like this, not fewer. Kudos to Prat! --Born2cycle (talk) 04:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Let's say you're a new editor, while I've been here since 2005. You write an article. I delete it and give the reason as "I've been here a long time, so I know best." Are you ever going to come back? Didn't think so. Actions like this damage the project. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:04, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I haven't seen a diff of Pratyeka performing any out of process deletions and, per his talk page response, it seems hardly likely an "inclusionist" would do so. How is an undeletion going to drive away new users? NE Ent 13:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Possibly even more serious than it first appeared: Looking in the logs I've located at least one case where Prat apparently knowingly undeleted copyvio material, saying it was "useful and unique". Okay, I think I'd support taking this to ArbCom as it's quickly gone from bad to worse. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • JDDJS actually included Coral Consortium in his initial post. It was cleaned by User:Geitost and listed at WP:Copyright problems/2011 January 21. WP:CP regular User:VernoWhitney RD1'd it. Flatscan (talk) 05:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support- per Andrew Lenahan. Reyk _YO! 04:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Concern I morally support this. I worry about the process. I don't think that Arbcom needs to be involved, and I think this is well within power of community consensus. I'm just not sure that a drive-by at ANI is sufficient. RFC/U perhaps?—Kww(talk) 04:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

No. That would be throwing unnecessary delays and bureaucracy in the way of community self-government. There are two proposals here: undelete ban and desysop. There is a very clear consensus for the undelete ban; that is obviously the very least that needs doing. And we don't need a big long RfCU to do it, just because he's an admin. Desysop is up to ArbCom. They may ask us to run an RfCU but, assuming Pratyeka doesn't change his stance between now and then, they're just as likely to take the case for desysop on the evidence in this thread. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Apparently pratakaya is on holidays with intermittent internet access, and so will probably not be doing anything objectionable in the near future anyway. So there's no rush to do anything immediately. Reyk _YO! 05:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - Echoing comments by Boing! said Zebedee and others: This user's actions and explanatory response are unacceptable, and even alarming. They amount to a dismissal of community consensus and established process, and threaten the foundational integrity of the project. Given the extraordinarily high standards and cross examination that we currently subject RfA candidates to, this kind of roguery (there, I said it) must be stopped in it's tracks. This applies to all users, admins and otherwise; both vintage and new. We're all accountable to the community and to the project for respecting the same set of policies, guidelines and established consensus. No one is special. - MrX 05:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I've been concerned about Pratyeka ever since last summer, when the discussion at Talk:Early_life_and_career_of_Barack_Obama#CIA_Reference_Justification indicated a lack of understanding or regard for BLP policy and synthesis. At the outset of that discussion I had the impression (via the "Misplaced Pages administrator" tag on his first signature) that he was trying to use his admin position to force an inappropriate synthesis into a BLP. Acroterion (talk) 05:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  That Obama thing certainly does show a very poor grasp of BLP policy of and Synthesis, which is disturbing in an admin - though as long as he doesn't use the admin tools to act in those areas, I don't think it's a cause for action. However, the "Misplaced Pages administrator" tag clearly looks like an attempt to intimidate and to imply that his opinion is somehow special, and I see that as unacceptable behaviour - as a one-off, it wouldn't warrant action, but it's all adding up to an unacceptable attitude in an admin. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

That was how I felt at the time: it didn't involve direct use of admin tools and Pratyeka didn't habitually edit BLPs so I let it pass. I mention it here as additional evidence of a poor or obsolete understanding of basic policy. I didn't catch on at first that I was explaining policy to an administrator: I thought I was dealing with a newbie. I only noticed the tag about halfway through. Acroterion (talk) 12:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support - Given the response, I do believe something needs to be done. I feel that prat's response was less than ideal, and if there's an indication that this behavior is going to continue that it needs to be addressed. However, I also feel that if it is ArbCom who typically desysops someone, something more than an AN/I discussion should be used to say "we can't desysop you, so we'll ban you from using the tools instead." It gives the impression of subverting the actual process, although I know that's certainly not the intention. On the other hand, I think that my thinking is at odds with WP:BURO and WP:IAR, at least on some level. If prat makes some sort of acknowledgement that an admin cannot ignore community consensus and resolves to refrain from doing so in the future, then I see no need for this sort of topic ban. Short of that, however, something should be done, and for lack of some better alternative, I would have to support this, though not with a high degree of comfort. - SudoGhost 05:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • If he's willing to abide by consensus, then all will be well. If he continues with his "LOL consensus" attitude that he's blatantly and brazenly displaying, he's a rogue admin and needs to have the bit stripped ASAP. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I'd say that an 11th-hour apology at this point (which hasn't actually happened anyway), would just be a desperate move to keep the tools. He's already made his true feelings on the matter incredibly clear, that he's above consensus. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 06:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support and request desysop. --Nouniquenames 05:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support not for the singular incident, but for the statements made above that indicate an attitude towards established Misplaced Pages policy that I find incompatible with being a good admin. Let me be clear, it is fine to a) make an occasional mistake or b) hold an opinion contrary to consensus. However it is not OK to deliberately and knowingly take actions which one knows to be against consensus policy, and then act as though the rest of the community has to accept it. If he had merely expressed the opinion, or had merely had one or two bad undeletions, I wouldn't support this at all. Neither by itself means much, but the fact that the undeletions don't represent an error, but rather a deliberate attempt to circumvent established norms merely for to further one's own opinions on the issue at hand, and without regard for the opinions of the greater community at large, that is incompatible with the use of the admin tools. An admin should be willing to use their tools without regard for their own opinions, or at the very least, to refrain from using them where community norms differ from one's own opinions. The fact that that didn't happen here (and not the substance of the opinion itself) is why I must, with great regret, support the proposed sanction. --Jayron32 07:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Send to ArbCom Obviously there is support that he is not trusted with one part of his administrative duties, and if that is the case, ArbCom is where you direct concerns about him not using the tools anymore. We do not support RFAs on the basis that we take their word to not use a tool a certain way or that they promise to refrain from blocking/deleting/protecting. If he is trusted with the tools, then so be it, but he can't trusted with 2/3 of it. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 07:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• ArbCom -- The user explicitly stated he undeleted articles that had undergone AfD because he believed they shouldn't have been deleted and consensus is just a silly little thing. Sysops aren't "super users", they need to ascertain and implement the community's consensus, not override it with their own views. Salvidrim! ✉ 07:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Most folks here are taking a prior restraint view of undeletion. In fact, admins can and should undelete things that are fixable, in the process of fixing them. DRV doesn't exist as a necessary stop, period. Now, the fact that this should have gone to userspace or an incubator first before remaining in mainspace unchanged is really the only structural issue I see here, and one that's quite correctable. Fact is, if he hadn't had the bit and had just restored a deleted copy from a mirror somewhere, it would have been G4'ed and he would have gotten a notice of that, and that's about it. You want to know why there are so few people willing to be admins? Look no further than how badly a single incident has been blown out of proportion. Jclemens (talk) 08:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I find this oppose disturbing, considering that one of the AFDs closed with "Consensus argued that the subject had not received coverage which would have demonstrated notability via GNG". That's not fixable. --Rschen7754 08:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • It's absolutely fixable - how many young actors have had early press-release-and-a-headshot articles deleted for lack of notability, only to land a notable role and get a new article later on? Subjects that are not notable at deletion can become notable later - it's the whole premise of WP:USUAL, for example. But undeleting an article because "Subject became notable when he did X" is not the concern here. The undelete here was done because the admin specifically and explicitly disregarded the "self-described" consensus. He did not fix the article, did not update it to show how the subject had since become notable, did not remove the potential copyvio (or link to show that it was not copyvio), he just restored it. And I don't know how that is justifiable - as Jclemens correctly notes, a simple repost would have been G4'ed out of existance with all speed. Jclemens is correct, admins are able to undelete articles at will - but only for cause, and only in such a way as to address the concerns that got them deleted in the first place. Acting as an admin super-vote after the fact is not acceptable, and it seems that that is what we're looking at here. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support and Refer to Arbcom to consider stripping his admin status. Violating WP:Consensus after a clear procedural determinantion of the community's opinion is, IMHO, a very serious breach of the community's trust that comes with the responsibility of being an admin. Taken together with his restoration of copyvio material and his self-declared position, IMHO this editor should not be allowed anywhere near an admin's toolbox. Roger (talk) 08:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• We're far too quick to jump to straw polls on ANI these days. Prat has been informed that the community doesn't support his use of the tools to support his position on the deletion/inclusion spectrum: it is to be assumed that he won't do it again now that it's attracted broad community attention. There should be no need for a formal topic ban here. Talk of ArbCom or a desysopping is extreme at this point. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:24, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Can you show us where he has accepted the community's feedback or given any indication that he won't do it again? It looks to me more like he's saying "Fuck you community, I'm in charge and I'll decide what's deleted and what isn't". -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  "It is to be assumed" because it's the only sane response. If he carries on regardless after the heat of a big ANI thread (which is far higher-profile than the previous incidents, so far as I can see) then future corrective action should be uncontroversial. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:45, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Well, leaving aside the slur on my sanity, I think it is far more reasonable to assume that he means what he says - that he believes that as an admin and "expert" he has the right to override consensus when he thinks it is wrong. And to me, that is not reason to assume he is going to do the opposite of that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Prak's sanity, not yours. Apologies for any confusion there. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Hehe, np - my misunderstanding -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Send to ArbCom and let them decide. Admins, in my opinion, should either be free to do everything, or free to do nothing, they should not be partially topic banned from certain tasks they can't be trusted with. GiantSnowman 09:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support desysopping, and/or sending to arbcom. Unfortunately the community can't do it itself yet. Shadowjams (talk) 09:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Send to ArbCom We just had another admin who ran away when told advised the he was time-and-tme again screwing up the deletion process and their response was also "yeah, so what" (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose This is way too soon to call for a de-sysop. He's here for 1 undeletion, not multiple, and do remember IAR is just as much policy as AFD.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  12:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Send to ArbCom - not just one undeletion, but a deletion that shouldn't be made, editing through edit protection without making an edit request for another Admin to do or deny (at least that seems to be what happened at Bitcoin). It's part of a pattern. Dougweller (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I find myself quoting Andrew Shepherd again. People, there is not a direct run from the Administrators' Noticeboard for Incidents to Requests for Arbitration. There's a notice in a box at the head of this page that says this. Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Pratyeka is still all red linked and inviting, and it will prevent those big old arbitrators from taking the standard line of turfing you right out of RFAR on your collective ears with the usual So what did you actually do to resolve the situation, using the very processes that the community has constructed for giving mass feedback to one person on issues of that person's use of the MediaWiki toolset, before taking this avenue of last resort? question.

Whether it was trolling to start with or not, it is now, and blocks followed. Now at SPI. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

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ResolvedUnfortunatly, no. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• The Duke of Madras (talk · contribs)

Please have a look. --PlanetEditor (talk) 11:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

At what? It's a nice ermine he's wearing (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, the page is now deleted, before which I posted here. --PlanetEditor (talk) 11:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, my point was: what were you wanting us to look at? His continual removal of speedy deletion tag (usually goes to WP:AIV)? The fake-article that was a userpage? The copy/pasted source from another article being used inappropriately? You'll need to be a little bit clearer as to what you want people to look at in the future (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

He was continuously removing speedy deletion tag, that was what I was asking to look after. I seriously did not have in mind that it was a userspace. But after going thourgh the policy on userpages, although it was in userspace, the content violated WP:UPNOT. --PlanetEditor (talk) 11:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

That's the funniest page I've seen in a long time. Can we move it to BJAODN? Nyttend (talk) 15:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

You'd probably want this one, which it was shamelessly copied from - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Can anyone read the bizarre discussion on my talkpage that was started by the "owner" of the offending page (that I deleted) - and review his use of multiple accounts, and absolute badgering. I'd rather not have someone accuse me of being "involved" today (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Direct link. And given that the user page was moved/account renamed, we're dealing with socking. I'd block myself except I'm taking a coffee break after having the WikiRage meter go up a tick looking through AN/I this morning. (And that's the only thing I could extract from that mess.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Trolling-only account, no sign of wanting to build the encyclopedia. Somehow my block button is itchy today. Must be the weather. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Aw, another trigger-happy virtually powerful man. How cute. Oh yes, go ahead and block this account as well. That's the way to go! Block citing the most frivolous reasons, like not here to contribute to Misplaced Pages. Well, how do you know in five minutes I had spent here before getting the pink vandal badge? Block the IPs of the entire world, I'll still be back. Don't worry, countless "rulers" have tried to oppress their subjects only to eventually realize that's not the way it works. Democracy won out eventually anyway. And to BWilkins, don't try your ganging-up-on-a-newcomer tactic again either. It's rather uncivil. I was glad for Floquenbeam's message on my user page. I was about to say thank you and how much better Misplaced Pages might be if everyone was that understanding instead of sitting on a self-built high pedestal, and lo and behold, a block! So, back I come. Brilliant stuff, this. And also, have you conveniently received a satisfactory response from the other user yet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Duke Reborn (talk • contribs) 04:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Floquenbeam's experiment in unblocking was not a success. This is a trolling only account. Mathsci (talk) 04:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:02, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the Duke is right about one thing. The link he tried to insert in the "not democracy" line above is wonderfully appropriate. Taking the freedom to fix that now. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I've reblocked the account. For the record, I had not noticed either this thread or the block log until well after I had blocked (I used a script to block). So I did not intend to wheel war here, and regardless, the behavior continued after the unblock. If a consensus forms to unblock, I have no problems with that, but I doubt that it will. --Rschen7754 05:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Also indefblocked User talk:Duke Four‎. --Rschen7754 05:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

And User talk:Duke Five. --Rschen7754 05:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

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Range blocks will be good, but if he's easily IP hopping/using proxies they won't work. Has anyone tried setting up an edit filter for him? Legoktm (talk) 17:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

At Dale Bozzio, there's been some disagreement, to put it mildy. The Master (talk · contribs), an editor with around 200 article edits and few interests outside of the Bozzio article, has been edit-warring for quite some time now with the clear intent of removing as much material as possible. They do have in interest in inserting material, material that was deemed problematic at the BLP noticeboard. See Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive165#Dale_Bozzio, and note that while Malerooster wasn't opposed to inclusion if the sources were deemed reliable, no such verdict was ever sought at the RS noticeboard.

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Resolved

B. Mandal (talk · contribs) is continuing to post copyright-infringing text despite several prior warnings and a prior block for this behaviour. Can I suggest that another block be instituted to prevent further damage? The existing contributions have now been taken to WP:CCI. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• The problem is that the editor only once ever communicated on a talk page (and never on his own). That single edit shows that is capable of communicating (i.e. there isn't a language issue). Given that he has continued to post copyright violations regularly (I checked three of his edits today - two were straight copies from copyrighted sources) I have blocked him indefinitely until he engages on his talk page and acknowledges the problem. Black Kite (talk) 10:47, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Further to the above, I've noticed something strange with one of the files he's uploaded. File:Tajuddin Ahmad.jpg was deleted on 27 February 2012, but if you visit that page you can still see the image. There doesn't appear to be a corresponding Commons entry, so I'm confused as to how the image still exists. Can anyone explain this? —Psychonaut (talk) 11:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

The image description page was deleted but the image itself was not. I've taken care of it now. I remember getting completely confused about a similar situation a few months back! Thryduulf (talk) 13:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.