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• Talk:List of Polish monarchs/Archive 01

Aftermath

Now that all (?) of the agreed upon moves have been carried out, it's time to clean up the usage and especially any remaining double redirects. Definetly we should start by eliminating all redirects from this list and then from the Template:Monarchs of Poland.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Double redirects ought have been eliminated as soon as the moves were done. At any rate, what agreed upon moves? I've objected to nearly all of them, and my criticisms have not really been addressed. john k 20:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, a sample articles I have checked have dr fixed, so it was more of a general reminder. I am not sure which of your criticisms have not been addressed, but I cannot fail to note that you were the only voice of criticisms here. We both have advertised this discussion, and the few people who joined it seem to support my proposal. I'd have wished for more votes, alas, we have to act on what we got, and it has been over a month since I first made the proposal - how long can we wait? This page was left in poor shape for years... at least now we have a consistent naming system, without the terrible latinized versions.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 10:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not the only voice of criticism - Gabbe also objected to at least some of the proposed changes, and Khrystene appears to have agreed with my proposed compromise. At any rate, there's only three of you (you, Logologist, Appleseedadvocating the change, and I don't see that 3-1 can be considered consensus. Had I chosen, there are people who I could have contacted who I suspect would have agreed with me. I'd also be interested to see what would have happened had you posted each proposed move at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. It is not fair to claim consensus when there's been so little input, over all. I would note, in addition, that I provided considerable evidence that anglicized names were used much more commonly than the Polish names, and nobody has really bothered to try to counter this by providing evidence of usage of names like "Zygmunt," "Kazimierz," and "August" in English for the Polish monarchs of those names. john k 09:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Piotrus, but in fact I opposed too. I did not want to interfere after the move was already done, but I am still not sure the Polish-Polish names are the best option here, especially that it's quite common to translate the names of virtually all European rulers to English. Halibutt 21:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I just found this discussion, and have to agree that I too am opposed and horrified at how some of these changes were pushed through in the face of opposition, and without clear consensus. The correct naming convention is that the articles should have the most commonly-used English name. Anything that was moved to a Polish spelling, should be moved back. If there is any disagreement, I recommend increasing visibility of this discussion by posting it to Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/All#Language and linguistics. Elonka 00:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

By all means, post it there, but I think that most of the moves were done to the name corresponding with the most common name (google hits). Of course there is the diactrics issue, but this has been settled by Polish editors long time ago with the agreement to use diactrics, and this has never been seriously opposed anywhere (to the best of my knowledge). All things considered, if you or john or sb else want to move any name back (or to sth new), please suggest doing so: while there has been some discussion about general naming rules, I don't recall any alternative names being suggested, and research we did clearly proved that old names were the 'worst of both worlds' - but not widely used in English and not close to Polish original versions.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The moves were horrid. I'm not too fussed, but diactrics should not be there. I support these pages being moved back to English versions of their names. Polonizing the names of monarchs at least makes it difficult to maintain the credibility of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English), although it's probably worthless and unbeneficial to try to keep more obscure Polish names English. - Calgacus 00:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Mmm Piotrus, I hasn't idea there is any discussion about this naming scheme. I was kind a wondering why the pages have been moved from previous naming scheme (name cardinal of X) to other. I am strongly opposing this idea. Native spelling is of course the way to go, but INSIDE the article. The name of the article is what names and titles convention was about (though it advices making redirects too). In other words, no Władysław Jagiełło, but Wladislaw II of Poland AND in the article Władysław II Jagiełło, Jahajla, Jogaila in prominent place. This was always the way to go when I was more active. Szopen 08:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I support johnk, Halibut, Elonka, Calgacus and Szopen on this one. Question: who's going to perform all the work, of reverting moves/edits? Can I be of any help? Further remark: it is by now clear that this article talk page has been used to dodge consensus-building: consensus should've been established first on Misplaced Pages:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers (as that was the page linked from the guideline Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles)) - instead a whole circumvention of guidelines operation took place: the guideline was declared inactive, in order to drive what looks like a cabal. --Francis Schonken 15:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you do it? We have to work out which ones will get reverted. And, will we be adopting the form "X II of Y"?- Calgacus 15:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

There are two steps:

1. determining which would be the best page names for Polish Rulers. I'm not an expert on that. For instance, I have no idea whether the list presently on Misplaced Pages:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers is any good. Could you have a look at the second column of the table on that page? Maybe best to re-activate that guideline, that is done by replacing the {{historical}} tag on top of that page by {{proposed}}, and (re-)listing in the usual places (wikipedia:Current surveys and Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy) for naming conventions guidelines). Also, for instance, people like johnk are the real experts on naming of royals, I'm not, so listing on wikipedia:naming conventions (names and titles) might be a good idea too.
2. Once that is completed, the moving of pages is not really my cup of tea (I'm no sysop), but I could always hemp with listing WP:RM requests, if that is the chosen path to mass-move Polish Rulers (another path may be chosen in the process of establishing consensus on Misplaced Pages:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers)

Anyway I sorta listed this issue on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Tutorial: how to circumvent guidelines & consensus-building already... (but better re-list on Village Pump too, when re-opening Misplaced Pages:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers) --Francis Schonken 16:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd be the one to do it. For my efforts, Piotrus, despite being an admin, is going around calling me names on the talk pages of fellow Polish users, such as Troll and POV Pusher. So if that's how an the only admin seriously concerned with this project is prepared to portrray me, I'm probably a bad choice to carry out the work. One think I would like to know is dating numerals. Jogaila is called on wiki Wladyslaw II, but most of my scholarly books when they call him Wladyslaw call him Wladyslaw IV, so I'm guessing a rather sensitive form of dating is going on, perhaps having something to do with the transition from Duchy to Kingdom. So, we do have to work out if we're doing X of Poland, or "X, Duke of Poland", or work around this when it has already taken place. - Calgacus 16:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) (I re-activated) --Francis Schonken 16:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

...and don't worry too much about the name-calling... If the work is good, wikipedians will appreciate. Really try people like john k to get re-involved (he's a sysop too if I'm recalling correctly). --Francis Schonken 16:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Also listed at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Polish monarchs, hope that attracts some people too! --Francis Schonken 17:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I am happy to see that this page is getting more attention. If only you guys came here few months ago (and this name change was advertised in many places, from RfC to W:NC) we could have avoided the 'bad blood' (also some people should keep in mind that talk first, move second is a good thumb rule...). But it is never to late to fix/improve things on Wiki. Although I - obviously - like the naming scheme we (me, Logologist and Appleseed) came up with, I am not claiming we are perfect. Since it appears that more people are getting into the issue now and the number of people opposed to our naming scheme is growing, perhaps we can improve it and work out a real consensus at the reactivated (tnx, Francis) Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Polish rulers). I suggest we move further discussion to Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (use English), as it is more suited then this page (which was used only because few months ago nobody was watching the outdated other page).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, I am not accusing you of acting in bad faith. In fact, I know that you had perfectly good intentions. Indeed I missed the proposals somehow, don't know really why, so I am not accusing you of not advertising enough. However, now when I know it, I think one should stick with the good all rules established in names and titles. It is only about article names (to make disambiguation and linking easier), not about the content inside if I am not mistaken. Szopen 09:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I like your scheme for the most part, but I don't agree with changing Casimir to Kazimierz, while terms like Ladislaus were clearly ridiculous. Every English source I have ever read is pretty consistent with using Casimir.--Milicz 23:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the guideline table was put by me on a separate page, that can be used in a template fashion, as shown below. Note that if clicking the "edit" link of that table, the separate page opens, and all changes will be visible in the three places where the table is presently displayed (that is on this talk page; on the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) proposal page, and on the talk page of the same)

Piotr's suggestion to provide links to the talk page discussions where decisions on the naming of individual monarchs were made, still has to be implemented (feel free to proceed!) --Francis Schonken 09:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Why are the Polish monarchs all kept in the Polish language? I thought we are on the English language Misplaced Pages? Gryffindor 14:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Beacouse there are several English variants and there is no good way to chose one of them. Thus by using Polish names (and there is only one in most cases) we are at least consistent with the primary source. Please read the discussion above for the long version of this answer.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Another reason is that there is a small group of Polish nationals on Misplaced Pages who have been pushing their own agenda: Renaming articles from English names to what they regard as the "correct" Polish-language names. Some of these Wikipedians (including at least one admin) seem to think that if they can push through the changes in the face of opposition, that they'll have a claim for making the changes stick during future discussions. Since the Polish nationals have remained organized via their own noticeboard, and have an admin in their number who often generates "calls to action" to get them all posting on a particular page, they are often able to all chime in to a particular discussion, and make it look as though there's a community consensus to keep the Polish name, when in reality it's just the same group of Poles posting over and over, moving from page to page, and in general ignoring or belittling any opposition. --Elonka 21:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

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