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A page you started has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Legal plunder, Xerographica!

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Since this has been here for 2 years I am going to mark this as reviewed but it needs a lot of cleanup work.

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Autoblocked for an additional day?

My block was set to expire around now. But now it says that I've been autoblocked and my block will expire tomorrow. Can anybody please explain what happened? Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 18:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Dispersed knowledge -- Balance

Would you please, please please craft your edits to make them useful. Here: , you add "Arthur Pigou (Neoclassical economics) ... It must be confessed, however, that we seldom know enough to decide in what fields and to what extent the State, on account of the gaps between private and public costs could interfere with individual choice. - Arthur Pigou, Some Aspects of the Welfare State." But your edit does not tie-in Pigou's remark into the subject of the article. It is simply soapboxing. E.g., it says "This quote is important and I want you to read it and you can figure out for yourself how it is connected to the topic (and if another editor comes in and changes what I've said I'm going to be upset)!!" Moreover, you do not add page numbers, ISBNs, other useful data. You are not meeting your WP:BURDEN when it comes to making this Pigou (and other) quote useful to the article or WP. Previously, you got into trouble due to remarks about other editors. But I fear that your POVs are the next problem. Russ Roberts (on Econtalk) frequently talks about his biases and confirmation bias. Can you? Once you do so, and because you do so, can you edit WP with balance in mind? I urge you to do so.--S. Rich (talk) 07:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

If you don't understand the relevance of a quote, then all you have to do is post your question on the talk page. As it stands, you have not shared a single concern on the talk page. Rather, you've decided to post your concerns on my talk page.

Regarding bias...of course I'm biased. But all my contributions are based on reliable sources. If you feel the need to develop the criticisms sections in any of the entries that I contribute to...then please...DIY. As long as your contributions are based on RS...then I will have absolutely no issue with you doing so. --Xerographica (talk) 07:57, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't you see? I'm a fairly intelligent person, and I can look at a quote that you post and figure out how it might fit. But that is not what we are doing here. E.g., we are not scattering about cogent quotes and letting readers fill in the blanks. We are here to compose and craft and edit. Something like "Pigou talked about dispersed knowledge when he said ...." But you are not doing this.

And you are missing the point about the talk pages. They exist to improve the article. Something like "The Pigou quote does not support the article because...." Then you can come in and say "Pigou talks about 'XYZ' which is ..." and defend your addition.

Regarding RS, when I come in and remove something and justify it by saying "this quote does not have a book or article title or page number or is talking about a different topic or concept", I am meeting my WP:BURDEN. Removing it is not an issue of RS. That is, I don't need RS to say "This quote is not helpful because it is not properly cited." That fact is self evident when the quote lacks a book title, page number, etc!

Xerographica, I am talking about your pattern of editing in general, not just in the DK article. Adding all of these quotes simply because they exist and are interesting is not a good or helpful method of building this encyclopedia. You've got to go beyond your desire to advocate (e.g., posting quotes based on RS) your thoughts. Build this encyclopedia. Brick by brick. And don't get upset when someone says "how does that brick fit?" and take it out. They take out the brick because it is misplaced. Not because it lacks RS.

It's time for me to do other stuff now. I'll look forward to your answer tomorrow. --S. Rich (talk) 08:33, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, great so we can talk about each other's "pattern of editing in general". Rather than simply take 2.5 seconds to find a quote's book title...you remove the quote. You could simply tag it with "reference needed" if you're not willing to make the effort of looking up the book title yourself.

And if you think a quote is irrelevant...then post in the talk page and say that a quote is talking about "Concept A" but the entry is dedicated to "Concept B". Except, you've never once done that. Rather, you wanted to turn Other people's money into a disambiguation page rather than make the effort to simply create a disambiguation page. Perhaps you thought that Milton Friedman's concept was the exact same as the film or novel?

Regarding where I add bricks...I add relevant quotes from Nobel Prize winning economists. If it's your priority to paraphrase them...then awesome...DIY. Except, well, perhaps you should post your contributions on the talk page first.

Here's my problem. Where are your bricks? Where are ANY of your bricks? You removed all my bricks from actions speak louder than words and put your money where your mouth is...but then you never added any of your own. How is that a "good or helpful" method of building an encyclopedia? Show me how to build an encyclopedia by developing those two entries. Don't just talk about building an encyclopedia...for once just do it. Then, and only then, will I consider the possibility of giving any weight to your feedback. --Xerographica (talk) 08:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Tax Choice Tag -- Notability

Please revert your deletion of the notability tag on Tax choice.

The tag does not indicate that a conclusion has been reached. Many editors have expressed concern as to the notability of the subject and this issue will eventually be decided through WP process. The removal of the tag is disruptive. Please replace it. SPECIFICO 19:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

It was just decided through WP process...Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Tax_choice. If you have any concerns with an entry...then please utilize the entry's talk page to voice your concerns. --Xerographica (talk) 19:27, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

It was decided that the article does not qualify for deletion. There are other issues and resolutions depending on its notability. It currently has no RS citation. You can help resolve the issue by providing encyclopedic content with in-line citations from RS. Meanwhile please replace tag. Thank you. SPECIFICO 19:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

The reason that the article did not qualify for deletion was because there are more than enough RS that support the notability of the concept. If the community decided that it was not sufficiently notable then the entry would have been deleted. --Xerographica (talk) 19:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I said that in my close, so don't make assumptions like that. This article CAN be AFD'd again, if needed. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 09:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

And I don't think I even mentioned what you said in your close. Did I? Well...I did mention the "community"...so I guess it's perfectly understandable for you to assume that I was referring to you, and only you, when I said "community". Sorry about that. --Xerographica (talk) 17:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Other people's money for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Other people's money is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Other people's money until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. LK (talk) 10:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Heterogeneous activity

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Heterogeneous activity requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Misplaced Pages:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. SPECIFICO talk 16:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Non-RS cited material on Benefit Principle

Please do not continue to re-insert the unsourced assertions and opinions on Benefit Principle. These statements require in-line citations. As noted, the litany of goods paid by user fees are not even public goods. Please find citations per WP policy and cease to make disruptive edits. SPECIFICO talk 00:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Please stop using my talk page to discuss specific entries. If you have concerns with content that I've added to a particular entry then use the entry's talk page to express your concerns. --Xerographica (talk) 00:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I am addressing you here out of courtesy because I am afraid that you may be headed toward an unpleasant outcome with these disruptive behaviours and I earnestly encourage you to desist. However I acknowledge your request and I will not continue to communicate with you. SPECIFICO talk 00:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm engaging in disruptive behavior by adding content that is supported by RS? It's not disruptive when you engage in the wholesale removal of content that is supported by RS? Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if I WAS the one who was headed towards an unpleasant outcome while you, the person who actually IS engaging in disruptive behavior, suffered absolutely no negative consequences. --Xerographica (talk) 00:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Heterogeneous activity for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Heterogeneous activity is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Heterogeneous activity until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. LK (talk) 08:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Tax choice unsourced material

Please stop adding unsourced content, as you did to Tax choice. This contravenes Misplaced Pages's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. OR is not the big issue (although it may exist). More importantly in this case it is improper to add material without citing where it came from. The WP:BURDEN is on you to provide the references. You can meet that burden by providing citations. WP policy is to provide in-line citations. You are not complying with policy and this can be considered disruptive. Furthermore, you have been reminded of this policy on numerous occasions. S. Rich (talk) 03:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Please assume good faith by adding citation requests to any material that you believe to be original research. --Xerographica (talk) 03:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Your discourtesy

It is just amazing that you would edit Tax choice while I had posted an {{Inuse}} banner. (Banner posted here: . Your edit, made while the banner was in place: . My reverting, with a note asking that you respect the inuse banner: . Your edit, made despite the banner & my request for editing courtesy: . And then you continue to edit despite the banner: .) Your edit summary "request" that I not remove unsourced material does not support such disruptive, indeed outrageous behavior. --S. Rich (talk) 03:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Article creation break?

AfDs take away time and energy from everyone involved that can be better devoted to other things. Given that consensus has been pretty clear recently about the quality and appropriateness of the articles that you have created, I'ld like you to consider slowing down and not creating new articles for a while, and instead focus on improving existing articles, including the ones that you have already created. If you would like to start a new article, it would be better if you started one in user space first, and tried to make it a pretty good article (at least a 'C' class article) before posting it into main space. That would lead to less stress and work for all involved. LK (talk) 05:51, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

If a concept is notable and supported by numerous RS...then I'll create the article. If editors who haven't edited a single economic entry don't think that the concept is notable...then that's on them...not me. Clearly a consensus of editors does not mean a thing when it comes to determining the notability of economic concepts...concentrated benefits and diffuse costs. When notable economic concepts are deleted...then it's no wonder that editors with knowledge of economics see little value in making the effort to contribute. --Xerographica (talk) 06:24, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that's a productive attitude to take. One shouldn't be be too certain that one's views about issues are correct. That's an underlying principle of Misplaced Pages, that we work collaboratively, sharing reliable sources to determine collectively what should be included. We don't trust editors to know what is right and proper for the encyclopedia to contain, and so we look to external authorities (academic journals, textbooks, major newspapers) to guide us. If you wish to productively contribute to the encyclopedia, you have to follow the common principles and practices here. LK (talk) 06:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Your argument would work if it was just me, on my own, saying that concentrated benefits and diffuse costs is a notable concept. But that wasn't the case. There certainly are more than enough reliable sources to establish the notability of the concept. But it was deleted anyways. --Xerographica (talk) 07:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

LK is not saying CBDC is not notable. He's suggesting a more productive method of editing WP. One that will benefit all editors. You know the article The Logic of Collective Action. You added a link to the page. This article is a stub and needs work. You could be the editor that works it up as a useful article, and thereby make CBDC a more presentable concept. I suggest you go to WP:BOOKS and look at their guidelines. They have templates, article guidelines, links, etc. that you can use to develop the article. Look for book reviews that discuss the book, or other authors who have cited it. HighBeam Research may be a useful source. Follow the 5 pillars as you work on the article, keeping in mind that the no OR and NPOV guidelines are most important. When you run into difficulties, look for help with the "help me" links. They will attract other editors who will be happy to assist. Your goal, as an editor of WP, should be to create a WP:GA. For real ambition, see if you can work up a WP:FA. – S. Rich (talk) 07:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

3RR warning

Your recent editing history at Tax choice shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. If you've already been warned (which I can't confirm), you will be blocked. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:53, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

A complaint has been filed at WP:AN3#User:Xerographica reported by User:Arthur Rubin (Result: ). You may respond there if you wish. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 15:34, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Tax choice protection

Xerographica, instead of having Tax choice protected, I propose this: Neither of us edit on tax choice for 5 days (which will free up the article for other editors.) In fact, I'll not edit any of the pages on your "to do list" for 5 days. If you'll agree, I ask the admin to unprotect it. (Whether s/he will do so is another question.)--S. Rich (talk) 17:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

No thanks. SPECIFICO has no problem removing content that is supported by RS...dollar voting --Xerographica (talk) 19:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Xerographica/Decentralized knowledge, etc.

In addition to the copyright violations you have incorporated in your edits by excessive quotes, you now may be violating copyright of the Misplaced Pages articles, unless (1) none of the material is from other Misplaced Pages editors, or (2) you properly credit the other Misplaced Pages editors in edit comments. They probably will violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, unless brought into a usable state within a month or so.

I won't bring this up on a noticeboard, unless you reply with more attacks, but I may still comment if someone else brings it up. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:22, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. --Xerographica (talk) 08:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As usual, you have no knowledge of relevant Misplaced Pages policies. Userspace drafts are allowed, (and, in fact, encouraged in an essay which doesn't point out the Misplaced Pages policies it potentially violates), but

• If you copy material from the existing Misplaced Pages article, and it was edited by another editor, you need to note the ID of that editor in an edit summary, or you're violating their copyright. (Other modes of acknowledging the contributions are suggested, but may not actually be allowed under the CC-BY-SA license.)
• If the base article is deleted at AfD, you might be required to delete your copy, if the result is delete and not userfy, rather than just delete. The closing Admin (which will not be me) will note that.
• If the drafts have any "fair use" material, they may be subject to deletion under WP:NFCC. This probably includes your "passages", even if not copyright violations and/or plaigerism.
• If the drafts have any categories, they need to be commented out (as ], rather than ]).
• Material not allowed anywhere in Misplaced Pages, such as WP:BLP, WP:NPA, and WP:COPYVIO violations, is not allowed in userspace drafts.
• If there is a mainspace article, the draft may be considered a WP:POVFORK.

I thought there were other restrictions on userspace drafts, but I can't find them. My apologies. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Unnecessary war

The article Unnecessary war has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

WP:SAA: it is hard to see how this could be anything other than "advocacy and controversial material". Each of the entries is someone's opinion that particular wars were unnecessary. And then the list would go on and on and on. (Too bad we do not see Pig War listed.) To balance the article, other peoples' opinions would have to be added to say "no -- that war was necessary." If the article is intended to talk about war as an unnecessary event in general, then pacifism and anti-war are available to cover the subject. It won't work to say "'Unnecessary war' is a concept that should have its' own article -- look at the RS that use the term." They only use the term because the RS is advocating their views about those particular wars, and not about unnecessary war as an overall concept.

While all contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. S. Rich (talk) 02:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

January 2013

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Please do not remove Articles for deletion notices from articles, or remove other people's comments in Articles for deletion debates, as you did with Unnecessary war. Otherwise, it may be difficult to create consensus. If you oppose the deletion of an article, please comment at the respective page instead. Thank you. S. Rich (talk) 02:48, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

If you had actually read the notice then this is what you would have read...

You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise object to deletion for any reason. Although not required, you are encouraged to explain why you object to the deletion, either in your edit summary or on the talk page. If this template is removed, do not replace it.

Please stop wasting my time. --Xerographica (talk) 02:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

You may delete {{PROD}} notices, but not WP:Article for deletion notices. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

My apologies. That's exactly what you did. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Other people's money (disambiguation)

Hello, Xerographica. You recently removed two links from Other people's money (disambiguation) with the edit summary, "One blue link per bullet". You are quite correct that disambiguation pages should have only one blue link per item. In those two cases, though, the links you removed were the only blue links – as opposed to red links to currently non-existent pages. I have restored the links to Kathryn Adams, an actress whose bio page mentions the 1916 film, and Justin Cartwright, author of the 2011 novel whose page contains the red link. Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 05:45, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

My bad. Out of curiosity...what's the logic behind the policy? --Xerographica (talk) 05:48, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

As I understand it, the idea is that by including a blue link along with the red link people landing on the DAB page can find some information about the topic, even if the article doesn't exist yet. Cnilep (talk) 06:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Unnecessary war

I served in Iraq – while there 2 of my friends died and (Tim Vakoc) suffered his wounds after I had attended a service with him. Another unit member of mine suffered severe injuries, but she recovered and later invited me to her wedding. Three more unit members of mine died in Afghanistan (one of them I'd served with for years). I'd like to say that all war is "unnecessary" in one sense or another – but doing so would only add to the bitterness of their sad deaths. Does the world become a better place because we write an encyclopedia article titled "unnecessary war"? Compare – we could put up articles titled "wasteful war" or "ironic wars" or "glorious wars" or "stupid wars" or "successful war" or "necessary war" or "smart wars" or "bitter wars", etc.--S. Rich (talk) 14:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

How could the world NOT become a better place by sharing with readers what numerous reliable sources have to say about an extremely notable and important concept? Unused highways and bridges to nowhere and any other unnecessary public projects...like unnecessary wars...waste the lives of a nation's citizens. --Xerographica (talk) 19:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Given the history of humankind, it is not surprising to see war as part of every era, civilization, society, etc. We live in mondo cane. For better or worse, fewer and fewer Americans are participating in war. (12,000,000 wore a uniform during WWII, single battles resulted in thousands of casualties.) So as war becomes less and less of a burden on the public fisc or body public, it's un-necessary-ness becomes less and less significant. Will we change things by beating our chests and shouting "That war was unnecessary!"? I don't think so. Moreover, Misplaced Pages is not a place were we can WP:RGW. We have articles on the ethics of war, the numbers of casualties per war, the rules of engagement, the law of war, etc. These articles serve to inform readers so that they can make up their own minds without our telling them that war is unnecessary. You are spinning your wheels with many of these notable and important concepts because your POV is driving your edits and article creation. And you are spending more of your time on talk pages rather than on article development. (That proportion will change as your articles get deleted.) Importance and notable are not the be-alls and end-alls of encyclopedia building. There are WP:FIVEPILLARS you must consider, and follow. You are doing much better in terms of civility (and I thank you for that); but please consider the other fundamentals. But each time you seek to point out how there is government waste, stupid policy, loss of freedom, etc., step back and consider what is the counter-argument to your opinion. You will find the exercise challenging, interesting, and worthwhile.--S. Rich (talk) 21:03, 29 January 2013 (UTC)21:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

==NPA==

Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. This edit with its' "VDE" acronym, looks like a revival of the personal attacks with resulted in blocking. I urge you to desist. You can make some progress by self-reverting or by striking out the offending comment. S. Rich (talk) 21:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

When have I recently used the VDE acronym? --Xerographica (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

::Don't be cute. The link is right in front of you. --S. Rich (talk) 21:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

This is what I recently posted...

When I created this entry I added numerous relevant topics to the see also section...but they were all removed. It would really help improve this article if any editors could recreate the see also section and add some relevant topics to it Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 12:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

It does not contain the VDE acronym...so why are you accusing me of personal attacks? --Xerographica (talk) 21:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I apologize. I was wrong. I did not look carefully at the time-stamp. I have stricken my comments.--S. Rich (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

About the article "Unnecessary War"

Hello there, I see that somehow you feel like the community in general has engaged a war against you and your ideals. Lolz, the case is, Misplaced Pages must be neutral and any original research or thought must be avoided. I would be sarcastic or hypocrite if I tell you "I know how you feel", because I truly don't know how you are feeling about what is going on, but I've passed through a lot of discussions on wikipedia regarding neutrality, notability and other things, and what I tell you is, fresh your mind and if what is going on here becomes a matter that inflicts any personal anger on you, take a break. The subject on the article which you are writing is clearly notable, but the thing that is going on is the neutral aspect of the facts. So ask yourself, how can I write something that the reader would read and make up his mind either neutral, positive or negative. If you can keep it up to this level, I'd join you building this article up. So take it easy. Regards Eduemoni 05:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

It looks like the entry will be deleted...so I moved it over to my subpage...User:Xerographica/Unnecessary war. You're certainly welcome to have at it. Regarding my neutrality...regarding original research vs research...well...if we collaborated on building the article up...then you'd certainly be able to come to your own conclusions. As they say...the proof is in the pudding. --Xerographica (talk) 07:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Userpages

I've added the {{userspace draft}} template to your various subpages. This will have the same effect as the __NOINDEX__ template. (Same thing, basically, that I did on January 17.) I think the template will avoid WP:UPNO problems. – S. Rich (talk) 15:26, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

January 31 – not assuming good faith, and more

Please remember to assume good faith when dealing with other editors, which you did not do on Talk:Foot voting‎. Thank you. This edit and the one preceding, with your "But if you're genuinely interested in improving this article..." comment, improperly questions the good faith of User:Volunteer Marek – S. Rich (talk) 01:59, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for trying to keep Misplaced Pages free of vandalism. However, one or more edits you labeled as vandalism are not considered vandalism under Misplaced Pages policy. Misplaced Pages has a stricter definition of the word "vandalism" than common usage, and mislabeling edits as vandalism can discourage newer editors. Please read Misplaced Pages:NOTVAND for more information on what is and is not considered vandalism. Thank you. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Please do not attack other editors, as you did to Talk:Concentrated benefits and diffuse costs. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Would you please just stop with these snide, uncivil, disruptive remarks? Specifically, "Have you ever considered reading what the reliable sources have to say about the topic?" WP:AGF that Rubin has read the material, and keep your opinion as to whether he has or has not to yourself. – S. Rich (talk) 07:45, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

If you truly believe that it's a personal attack to ask another whether they've read the material then update the policy accordingly. --Xerographica (talk) 07:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, you are missing the point. Each time you question whether another editor has read the material, you implicitly deny the good faith of that editor. When you say another editor arbitrarily removed material, you deny the good faith of that editor. (And by commenting you are conducting a personal attack on that editor.) Consider, Rubin has tens of thousands (76k+ as a matter of fact) of edits. Out of those thousands of edits, is he picking on yours in particular? Or does he fail to read material and arbitrarily edit as a matter of habit? Certainly not. If he did, other editors would complain and Rubin would be properly admonished. In your case, Xerographica, you brought up the issue of edits by me, Rubin, and SPECIFICO on the noticeboard. Not only did you fail to get support for your contentions, you have an administrator (who has 30k+ edits) telling you that you are about to be blocked. (Your latest comment on the ANI page may be enough to accomplish that!) My gosh, you are banging your head against the wall, and that wall is not coming down. Please consider my suggestion in the following section. The Military History WikiProject is not confined to historical subjects. You ought to sign up, work on their stubs, develop articles, etc. in another realm. (Information Operations (United States) needs a lot of work.) On your present course you are about to crash & burn. – S. Rich (talk) 22:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Military SMEs needed

Are you a military-topic SME? As you have mentioned IO experience in AF and 11B background, the WP:WikiProject_Military_history/Members/Active is always looking for contributors and could benefit from your help. Lots of articles in their AO and AOI need attention. I say this sincerely. Your present COA in econ does not seem to be (rather, is not) productive. Assess your efforts and use the MDMP, remembering that MDMP is a cycle. When it turns out that our efforts are not effective, we re-assess and refine out plans. If you are inclined to non-conventional/unconventional warfare, consider the SOF Imperative to Understand the Operational Environment. In your case, you must consider that the operational environment of WP -- it is not built by people who thrive from "abuse" as those people are not cooperating in the effort. Such people either give up or are pushed out. From the IO perspective, you are not considering your target audiences -- e.g., fellow editors and the cultural values of the WP institution. (Also, you should consider these people/editors to members of a targeting cell. When fellow cell members tell you something, you should consider what they say -- especially if they have much more experience than you.) If you'd apply MOEIs, you'd see that your edits are weighted toward talkpage discussions, which indicates ineffective article editing. Again, I urge you to focus on (and in) an area where you can contribute more effectively. – S. Rich (talk) 16:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)01:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Your recent edits on Tax Choice

Hello Xerographica. I am disappointed to see from your recent edits on Tax Choice that you appear to be disregarding the guidance you recently received on ANI. I now ask you to revert your re-insertion of the unsourced WP:OR text in that article and to follow WP policy in your efforts to improve this article. Please take this as my only warning that I may file an ANI complaint concerning this behaviour. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Again, as I've told you countless times, if you have concerns with content, then please post your concerns on the article's talk page. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 15:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Change your approach

Unless you start to heed the multiple warnings you have received about assuming good faith, you will most certainly receive a one way ticket to blocksville. Misplaced Pages is not a WP:BATTLEGROUND. You would do well to not accuse others of not reading sources anymore, and focus soley on the content, not the editor.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  14:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, can you please link me to the instance that you are referring to? Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 15:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much everything here (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

If you'd like to offer some clarification regarding what, exactly, constitutes a "personal attack"...then that would be awesome. Please share your thoughts on the personal attack talk page... Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#Willfully_ignoring_reliable_sources. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 15:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

You obviously know what I'm referring too, which has been your general pattern of WP:Idht behavioir as demonstrated on ANI and the article talk pages you frequent. Here an wikipedia we try to AGF, however you are pushing the boundaries. Unless you change your ways it will be only a matter of time until you are indeffed blocked for disruption. If I had the tools, I would have blocked you for two weeks to let the message sink in. And this has nothing to do with the content of the articles you are working on, but your failure to work and play nicely with others.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  16:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

It looks like LGR was referring to my comments of January 31. In each of them I specified how your comments were improper. (Bwilkins has re-enforced the overall point by posting your entire editing history.) Xerographica, when you ask for "some clarification", you are displaying ostrich effect. On the other hand, it is refreshing to read your discussion below re BoP on Tax choice. Words like "thank you", "sharing", etc. work! The next step, I believe, will be for you to better understand, and follow the guidance on OR, SYN, etc. -- – S. Rich (talk) 16:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Again, Xerographica, I complement you on your most recent approach on various talk pages. Focusing on the content of articles and the merits of the edits is the only way to go. You may have noticed on the Unnecessary war AfD page that less than complementary comments were made about your editing history. I stuck up for you. Unfortunately, you first rubbed a lot of people the wrong way with the comments that resulted in the blocks. And then you continued on an ineffective path with remarks about people not reading the material, etc.. You did not win friends or allies. Your efforts were counterproductive, and as a result you will have a difficult time convincing people on topics of concern to you. Still, the only way to continue to progress as an editor is to consider carefully the remarks that others are making on the talk pages. These other editors are pushing you back into your lane as an editor. You may feel the urge to lash back when things don't go your way. But resist that urge. When you succeed, you will be a true contributor. Keep up the good work. – S. Rich (talk) 06:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Xerographica, just keep your inquiries as whether people have read stuff to yourself. In light of your editing history, you are clearly implying that they have not, as in the comment you made here: . And in doing so, you fail to AGF. I've complemented you on what looks like a favorable new approach to your interactions with other editors, but I won't give you any leeway on comments that veer off course. You have one, well-defined lane to stay in when commenting on article talk pages. Stay in that lane. Confine your comments to article improvement and don't say anything about other editors. – S. Rich (talk) 23:05, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand how we can possibly have an informed discussion on a topic when you haven't read what the reliable sources have to say about it. It's really not that difficult. We both read what the RS's say and then we discuss how we can improve an article...based on what the RS's say about the topic. If you think that I'm trying to insult, or belittle you by asking whether you've read the RS's...then you're the one who is not assuming good faith. The reality is that I'm trying to collaborate with you. But collaboration isn't just me reading the reliable sources and you undoing my edits. It's both of us reading the reliable sources and then putting our heads together to figure out how to effectively convey the most important points in the article. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

It's true, to a certain extent, that reading the RS helps. But the issue was whether the particular see also links were appropriate. You have a history that is less than commendable WRT comments made about other editors. You were rude and insulting and your remarks engendered 4 weeks of blocks. And then you started questioning, sometimes in snide comments, that other editors (not just me) had not read material. Those remarks, coupled with my warnings, prompted LGR to advise you about the impending one way trip to blocksville. (An allusion that I especially like.) I've encouraged you WRT your constructive remarks about article improvement. But you dare not even hint in the slightest fashion that other editors have not read something. Whether they have read material or not does not matter, except to the extent that your inquiries are unnecessary and distracting. If you think there are particular portions of the RS which can be used in article development, then cite them. But your unfounded assumption that someone has not read material is one that you must keep to yourself. – S. Rich (talk) 01:26, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I've asked other editors if they've read the reliable sources because their edits did not reflect what the reliable sources say about the topics. If you think it's a personal attack to ask another editor whether they've read the reliable sources...then change the policy to match your preferences. Because, as it stands, the policy does not state that it's a personal attack to ask another editor whether they've read the reliable sources.

Do you think it's a personal attack when one student asks another student whether they've read the assigned reading for a class? Do you think it's a personal attack if the leader of a book club asks the members whether they've read the book that they are going to discuss?

Do you think it's easy for teachers, students and book club members to identify the people who haven't done the assigned reading? Of course it is...just like it's easy for me to identify the Misplaced Pages editors who think they can make useful content contributions or cuts without even having to read a single reliable source on the subject.

If you don't have any interest in reading about these concepts...then why not just focus on editing the concepts that you are interested in reading about? You trying to improve articles that you're not interested in is like a global warming denier working for the EPA. --Xerographica (talk) 01:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Burden of proof on Tax choice

Hey, Xerographica. I saw your posting on Bbb's talk page, which I have on my watchlist. I looked at the article in question, and I'm unimpressed by your behavior there. SPECIFICO is allowed to challenge content not supported by an inline citation, and he explained his reason for reverting in his edit summary. He is not required to do more, or to post on the talk page about his concerns. The burden of proof is on you as the restorer of the material to support the information with a directly cited source, and as such, you are responsible for starting the talk page discussion, not him. You are not allowed to just revert him blindly; that's edit-warring, and you need to cut it out. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

If he wants to challenge the content then why doesn't he add "citation needed" tags? Isn't he failing to assume good faith? --Xerographica (talk) 15:18, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

No, he's not. Citation needed tags are an optional intermediate step. Summary removal in cases like this are appropriate with an explanatory edit summary (which both editors had), and it has nothing to do with AGF. As you've gone right up against 3RR in this, consider this a final warning for edit-warring; don't revert the article again. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

But how can I know what needs to be improved if he doesn't use the talk page to specify his concerns? For example, do I need a source to support the statement that war has an opportunity cost? --Xerographica (talk) 15:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Their concerns are specified in their edit summaries; you don't need a talk page post to read them. "remove sections which consist entirely of bald statements and quotes, with no explanation of why the quotes are relevant to the topic" "Delete WP:OR Please find RS treatments of this subject matter if you believe it is relevant to the article." They think it's original research, and that the quotes need an explanation of why they're relevant to the article. Food for thought: why do we care what Eisenhower or Hitler thought about tax choice? Neither of them are economists or financial experts. Just being "famous" or "important" doesn't give their opinions on this subject any particular weight. If their opinions (not just opinions similar to theirs, but specifically theirs) have been analyzed by experts in reliable sources, then it's reasonable to include that analysis, backed by inline citations of course. But until that happens, including and juxtaposing their opinions like that is analysis that you're doing, not a reliable source, and so it's original research (and specifically synthesis) for it to be in the article. That's their objection as I see it. And again, the burden of proof is on you as the restorer of content to prove them wrong, not for them to prove themselves right. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject. The thing about "original" research is that there needs to be something "original" there for it to be considered "original research". What am I saying that is not supported by the primary sources (their own statements)? That entire section is simply an explanation of the opportunity cost concept...which is why I asked you whether I needed a source to support the statement that war has an opportunity cost. As far as I can tell...it's not "original research" if an editor supplies his own example to explain the opportunity cost concept. If possible, I'd prefer to have this discussion on the article's talk page so that other editors could benefit from the discussion. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 15:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

That is original research. By providing an example, you are implying that the example is representative of the whole. That implication is original research, unless it's backed by a reliable source. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Is it original research to say that a war has a cost? --Xerographica (talk) 16:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

If any editor challenges an edit claiming OR, then you would need to find a source to backup that statement.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  16:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

If you are correct that these editors are genuinely interested in removing OR regarding the opportunity cost of war...then why haven't they made any effort to remove this section... Cost_of_conflict#Opportunity_Cost or this section Parable_of_the_broken_window#The_opportunity_cost_of_war? Maybe they didn't know of those sections? Well...now they do. Let's see how sincere they are at removing OR when it comes to the opportunity cost of war. --Xerographica (talk) 18:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not familiar with those articles, but if you believe that they contain unsourced assertions, I urge you to find Reliable Sources or in the alternative to delete the OR content. SPECIFICO talk 18:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Given that you deleted the section on the opportunity cost of war in the tax choice article...clearly you believe that you yourself are sufficiently qualified to discern whether an assertion is unsourced or not. So why are you now asking me? You sure didn't ask me before you deleted the sections on tax choice. Yet, here you are now asking me about articles that I didn't spend hours and hours of my own time on. Although, I'm sure somebody must have sacrificed a good chunk of their own time to contribute to those articles. Like I said, if you truly are concerned with OR regarding the opportunity cost of war...then why would you behave any differently with those articles? --Xerographica (talk) 18:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I responded to your post on my talk page. I'm not going to comment on the details of the discussion in this thread, but I echo Writ Keeper's warning about edit-warring.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:29, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, again, can you please help me understand why you deleted the opportunity cost of war from the tax choice article but not from those two articles that I shared with you? Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 13:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

February 2013

Please stop attacking other editors, as you did on Talk:Tax choice. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. As I was composing a complement to you (above), you posted this stuff about Famspear: . (This is disappointing.) If you have doubts about someone's GF, keep them to yourself. You are NOT the only one doing any building. Stop saying things like " tearing down." – S. Rich (talk) 16:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Content categories

 Your user page User:Xerographica/Tax choice, by reason of its contents, was accidentally included in a content category. It has been corrected for you. For information about this, please see the guidelines about the categorization of user pages. Thank you. I believe the inclusion was accidental. In any event, I hope the guidelines will clarify the rationale about removing the categories on the subpage. – S. Rich (talk) 17:42, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

You (Rich) are doing the sort of things Alan was blocked for. I commented out the categories, rather than removing them. Even though the majority are wrong, and I would have removed them if they were in mainspace. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

OH! I see what you did. (And I missed the colons that you added, so I added comment out markings.) I certainly was not trying to be disruptive, and that is why I added the Twinkle template message above, plus the added note. I will go back and remove my comment out markings on this and the other pages. -- – S. Rich (talk) 18:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Other people's money listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Other people's money. Since you had some involvement with the Other people's money redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). Cnilep (talk) 03:40, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Invitation to participate in debate

Dear Xerographica

Your recent posts suggest you might be interested by this ongoing argument.

Alfy32 (talk) 10:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:CCI

Xerographica, I've just now come across WP:CCI. I bring this to your attention because various other editors have remarked that your blockquote additions may constitute copyright violations. Copyright is an area that I know very little about, so I won't opine on whether the quotations you post constitute copyvio. So please consider this as a helpful and friendly "heads-up". Reading up on this area now may save you difficulties later.-- – S. Rich (talk) 17:43, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

And like I've told those others editors, if you feel that using blockquotes is a copyright violation then please take your cause over to Wikiquote. --Xerographica (talk) 18:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I did not say I felt like you were violating copyrights and I do not have a cause to take anywhere. Jesh! This is an alert to you that other editors might bring up your postings on CCI. If they do, and if you are found to be a copyvio editor, you may end up being blocked. (Although I may be mistaken in this regard.) – S. Rich (talk) 18:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

If they truly believed that I was violating copyright, then why wouldn't they bring up my postings on CCI? --Xerographica (talk) 18:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

February 2013

This is your last warning. The next time you make personal attacks on other people, as you did at Talk:Tax choice, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on fellow editors. This edit improperly accuses another editor of being arbitrary, not genuinely interested in article improvement, or disruptiveness. You utterly disregard any other possibilities, such as his interest in editing articles that do you are not concerned with or about. You, of all people, are not the judge of any other editor's good faith. I am posting this as a "final warning" because on January 31 and February 1, you received messages from other editors about your improper comments. – S. Rich (talk) 00:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Xerographica, I did read your remark . You are just shooting yourself in the foot with such a complaint. That page is for discussing NPA policy, not to complain when I (or others) give you warnings about your behavior. Your addition will be looked upon as another disruptive edit. -- – S. Rich (talk) 01:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It's not a complaint. It's my sincere request that you update the personal attack policy to match your preferences. That way you'll spend all your time warning other editors that it's a personal attack to say that another editor is being disruptive. --Xerographica (talk) 01:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

You're being cute. You addressed the comment specifically to me. You did not address anything to the community. The policy says "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all." – S. Rich (talk) 01:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Walled Garden

Is Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Economics on your watchlist? If not, you might take a look. – S. Rich (talk) 02:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It's on my watch list...thanks though. It's a funny description. Sure it's a garden...but it's not like the walls are very high. --Xerographica (talk) 12:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary and disruptive

I just received another warning from Rich...User_talk:Xerographica#February_2013_2. According to him, it's a personal attack to say...

1. that another editor is being disruptive
2. that another editor's edits were arbitrary
3. that another editor is not genuinely interested in improving an article

Hey Rich, if you truly believe that these are personal attacks, then why not improve this article by updating it to match your preferences? --Xerographica (talk) 00:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

You know full well that the 3rd one in that list is one - you've been blocked for saying the exact same thing (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

What about the first two? Regarding the third one... The first time I was blocked it was because I said that other editors were A. incompetent and B. VDEs (Value Destroying Editors). The second time I was blocked it was because I said that editors were "willfully ignoring reliable sources". I really don't think that "willfully ignoring reliable sources" is the same thing as "not being genuinely interested in improving an article". --Xerographica (talk) 10:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Remember the core part of civility: we comment on edits, not editors. The moment you say "the editor does x" or "the editor only does y" you're commenting on the editor. "These edits do not improve the article" is valid if, indeed, they do not improve the article. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

But how can a community possibly function if we're not allowed to give feedback on each other's behavior? According to your core civility policy...even giving another editor positive feedback would be considered uncivil. Well...you can adjust the policy to say..."only comment on the edits...unless you're giving another editor positive feedback." But that would be the same thing as saying, "don't give other editors negative feedback". --Xerographica (talk) 11:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference in quietly going to someone's talkpage and saying "Bob, I think that THIS EDIT really doesn't help the project because it does A and B and doesn't do C" and using an edit summary to say "Bob is willfully ignoring sources" (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:34, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

But if Bob really isn't reading the sources...then it's a waste of time to try and explain to him why a specific edit isn't helpful. That's because the only way Bob can know the value of an edit is by having a firm grasp on what the reliable sources say about the subject. The greater the disparity between the edit and the reliable sources...the greater the harm. --Xerographica (talk) 11:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh yes, your "I have offline sources that I insist that you read or else you have no business editing this article. I'm better than you because I have a book in my possession, and anything that I say comes from this book is the rule of law so fuck you" attitude that you have. Yes, so very helpful around here. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:06, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, that's not my attitude. My attitude is "Please read at least one reliable source on the topic that you're editing...please, please, please." If you're truly interested in a topic, then I shouldn't have to beg you to read the relevant reliable sources. Conversely, if you haven't read a single reliable source...then clearly you're not interested in the topic. For example, how many relevant reliable sources have you read on tax choice? Zero? Yeah...probably...because you're not interested in the topic. Which is perfectly fine...unless you start removing entire sections of content. If somebody hasn't made a single positive contribution to an article...then it's really hard for me to assume good faith when they make numerous negative contributions to an article. And it's even harder to assume good faith when they remove entire sections and continue to insist that the article should be deleted. When their actions and their words are perfectly aligned...then there's no doubt in my mind that their intention is not to improve the article. --Xerographica (talk) 12:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

No, it clearly is your attitude. When dozens of people all tell you that, you need to listen. Of course, you also bring up another crux: your very bizarre interpretation of the types of articles that are appropriate for an encyclopedia. You then fight tooth-and-nail for them, contrary to logic, intelligent reasoning, or the community. Do you see the overarching concept here: you are not interested in this community, and until you are, you'll run into problems - and will likely keep being blocked (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Please stop putting your complaint on Misplaced Pages talk:No personal attacks because that is the talk page of a policy, and is not a place to air general grievances. Apart from that problem, repeatedly adding the text is edit warring which is never permitted. I'm not sure what page you would use to argue that a policy talk page should be used for a personal grievance, but there would need to be some kind of community consensus before similar comments are restored, in order to avoid an edit warring block. Johnuniq (talk) 11:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Right, because it sure makes a lot of sense to discuss what does, and does not, constitute a personal attack on my talk page...rather than on the personal attack talk page. In other words, please stop being disruptive. --Xerographica (talk) 11:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, when most of the rest of the community understands it, and you're trying to wikilaywer your way out of things, then yes - keep it off the policy talkpage and keep it here where the individual editor doesn't seem to understand it (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The rest of the community understands what? Rich warned me that it's a personal attack to say that another editor is being disruptive...but I've seen plenty of editors tell other editors that they are being disruptive. So which is it? --Xerographica (talk) 11:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It's not a personal attack to call another editor disruptive when he or she is being disruptive. Just like it's not a personal attack to call you a jerk when you're being a jerk. Now stop being a jerk. Crikey, I've only known you a few hours and already I want to strangle you. These other people must have the patience of Job. I'm gonna go beat a dead horse now -- more productive than this. Think of it as voting with my feet. EEng (talk) 12:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

NPA talkback

Hello, Xerographica. You have the NPA talk page at Misplaced Pages talk:No personal attacks's talk page.   LittleBen (talk) 12:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion – Editor Review

Suggest you look at and consider an Editor review. – S. Rich (talk) 23:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

RSN posting – notifications

While you are not complaining about particular editors in this posting, you should WP:NOTIFY the other editors. Please do not assume that they are watching anything. – S. Rich (talk) 01:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

How did you find out about the posting? Let me guess...is it because you and Rubin watch my contributions? Isn't that how you found and undid my edit on House of Cards (U.S. TV series)? --Xerographica (talk) 01:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Hope you will Just Do It (Nike). Here is the template: {{subst:RSN-notice|topic|thread=section header of discussion}} --~~~~ – S. Rich (talk) 02:04, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Latest (and hopefully last) PA

This is your last warning. The next time you make personal attacks on other people, as you did at Talk:Bundling (public choice), you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on fellow editors. This inappropriate edit, , is a personal attack and completely lacks AGF. – S. Rich (talk) 14:12, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Please "unbundle" your warning and specify exactly which part of my paragraph contains the personal attack. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 14:15, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

"What, exactly, is your positive contribution to this article? But rather than help further develop the article, you simply removed the material and are now telling me what I must do in order to improve the article. If you're not willing to strain your brain in order to paraphrase long quotes, if you're not willing to make the effort to repurpose this article... if you're not willing to sacrifice alternative uses of your time in order to actually read the reliable sources...in other words...if you're not willing to WP:DIY...then please refrain from making negative contributions." – S. Rich (talk) 14:27, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Can you whittle it down a little more? --Xerographica (talk) 14:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Nope. All of it. (Each part and as a whole). – S. Rich (talk) 14:45, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

So it wouldn't be a personal attack to tell another editor to WP:DIY? --Xerographica (talk) 14:49, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Last chance

Listen, I don't know you from Adam. But I have seen your name pop up quite a bit recently on noticeboards. I certainly dont edit the articles you are working on. You are still questioning other editors if they have read certain sources. Stop doing this. Please. You well know by now that we must AGF - to a point. Questioning if someone has examined a source is the height of not AGF. I suggest you find another way to phrase your question, perhaps by quoting the relevant portion of the text you are discussing and asking for their interpretation.

Additionally, your sea-lawyer routine is demonstrative of a combative attitude. At some point an admin will decide you are WP:NOTHERE to build an encycledia, but rather to argue. I'd hate to see you get blocked, but I can assure you that is what will happen if you continue. If you have trouble with other editors, feel free to ask on my talk page and ill try and make suggestions on how you can resolve them.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  04:44, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I fail to understand how it goes against AFG to question whether somebody is familiar with a concept or has read the relevant sources. It's a non sequitur. Perhaps it would be logical if there was a policy called...Assume Perfect Knowledge (APK). It would certainly go against APK to ask you whether you've read anything by Buchanan.

But it would be absurd for there to be an APK policy. Because Misplaced Pages itself is based on the concept of partial knowledge. That means that you and I both know different things. It means that I know that the founder of Misplaced Pages, Jimmy Wales, based Misplaced Pages on Hayek's essay on partial knowledge. And if I ask you whether you've read Hayek's most excellent essay...then it would be a total non sequitur for my question to be considered an Assumption of Bad Faith. My question would simply be the most perfectly reasonable assumption that nobody can know everything.

Does that make sense? AGF simply means that I'm supposed to assume, until proven otherwise, that your intentions are to actually improve an article. Right now, given that we've never edited an article together, if we were to do so for the first time...then I would AGF that you would truly want to improve the article.

But what if your edits did not reflect what the RS's, that I've read, had to say about the topic? What if it becomes clear that you've absolutely no interest in reading the relevant RS's? And/or, what if I become convinced that you sincerely and genuinely detest the concept and you would love nothing more than for the entire article to be deleted? What if you yourself say, several times even, that the article should be deleted? Do I still AGF? When you say that the article should be deleted and you remove entire sections of content...do I still AGF?

Unfortunately, it's extremely easy for you, an outside editor, to identify when I'm "attacking" other editors or not assuming good faith. But I truly wish it was just as easy for you to identify editors that are intentionally being disruptive and/or editing way outside their areas of expertise. --Xerographica (talk) 08:22, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it's easy for lgm lgr to identify when you are one is perceived to be attacking other editors because he had been so perceived. If I recall correctly, in his case, the truth of the accusation is considered irrelevant because he promised not to do it again. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:44, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

When discussing content with others, we always assume, unless given strong evidence to the contrary, that an editor has read the source in question. This is why I suggest that when you have a difference of opinion about what a source says for you to address the content of that source. For example, if you think source ABC means "X", and JoeBlow claims ABC means "Y", then instead of questioning if JoeBlow read ABC, quote the relevant portion of ABC and then explain why you came to your interpretation. It allows for focused discussion, and will avoid annoying others with perceived lack of good faith.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  14:59, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I think Arthur meant LGR, not lgm. More importantly, and sadly, you, Xerographica, again fail to AGF when you repeat your allegation that other editors are "intentionally being disruptive and/or editing way outside their areas of expertise." I'm going to mull over another ANI notice. Even when someone comes in with Thoughtful, Helpful, Intelligent, Necessary, and Kind comments about your behavior, you react with negativity. An ANI may be the only way to go. – S. Rich (talk) 15:03, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

LGR, I sincerely and most genuinely wish that JoeBlow claimed ABC means "Y". But again, JoeBlow never claims that ABC or BCD or CDE means anything because he has absolutely no interest in what the RSs have to say about the subjects.

Here's exactly the situation that you're talking about... Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Economics#McEachern_and_the_USPS. I love that situation. But the JoeBlow in that situation is not one of the JoeBlows that I'm having difficulties with. Again, the only reason that I'm having difficulties with these editors is because they do not read the sources relevant to the articles that they edit.

Why don't they read RSs? One of the JoeBlows hates these free-market concepts and wishes that they were all deleted...while the other two JoeBlows are under the impression (that's been unfortunately reinforced by the community) that there's really no need for them to read the relevant RSs. I'm the only member of the community who has tried to communicate to them the importance of reading the relevant RSs...but to no avail.

It has to be you, or other community members, who kindly suggests that they actually read the relevant sources before they edit economic articles. And then you have to somehow quiz them to ensure that they actually did do their homework. And if they did not do their homework then you have to prevent them from making substantial content cuts to the articles. Then, and only then, can these editors progress to the point that they say that ABC means "Y". --Xerographica (talk) 19:22, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Thats not how it works here. We don't require people to read what you consider relevant. And we certainly don't quiz them for competence. To put it simply, we find sources and then paraphrase them. Of course there is sourcing requirements of reliability, relevance and weight before a source can be used. Once a source is found, then there is the prose which requires fidelity and NPOV. And all of this has to be accomplished in a collegial fashion.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  06:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

They don't find their own sources and they don't read the sources that I find. --Xerographica (talk) 09:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Extra training

Xerographica, some years ago I was a platoon sergeant on AD. Not in a line unit, but combat support. And, imagine, some of my troops misbehaved. While I was tempted to take a SFC Snorkel approach, I resisted. Instead I'd deny privileges, issue reprimands, assign extra training, etc.. (I was pretty good at my job – they made me the Operations NCO.) With this background in mind, I'll draw an analogy that may help. In your case I'm not your platoon sergeant, but I (and others) have told you to stop fucking up. In your case I'd be tempted to go to the CO and ask for NJP from the BC. (You'd get a field grade Art. 15 because the earlier company grade NJPs (blocks) had not worked.) Still, the CSM and 1SG would ask me whether I'd tried counseling, mentoring, extra training, etc. Well, the counseling on WP is easy. Editors post notices here on this talk page and say "stop". And administrators issue NJP in the form of blocks. So, how would the "extra training" option work? To answer my question, I'd say "Xerographica, here is your extra training. You are to ...." The next question is whether you'd undertake the extra training that I had assigned. I certainly cannot force you to undertake any particular assignment. (Indeed, I wonder if you'll consider my suggestion.) But I can tell you that the assigned extra training would help. At the moment I won't tell you what I have in mind, but if you'll agree to undertake it, I promise it won't be too onerous. Will you do so? – S. Rich (talk) 18:38, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Citation format

Although not mandatory, the use of {{cite book}}, {{cite journal}}, {{cite web}}, etc., can make the nature of your references more clear. You frequently give only an author, URL, title, and sometimes date, without specifying whether it's a book, book chapter, journal, journal article, a personal web page, or something else. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:36, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Freedom of choice for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Freedom of choice is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Freedom of choice until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.

SPECIFICO talk 19:12, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

AVISO !!

Please stop attacking other editors, as you did on Consumer sovereignty. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs) 12:55, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Please assume good faith in your dealings with other editors, which you did not on Consumer sovereignty. Assume that they are here to improve rather than harm Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs) 12:55, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Fool me once, I'll assume good faith. Fool me twice, and AGF is no longer applicable. You, Rich and Rubin have consistently removed reliably sourced content and sources. AGF is no longer relevant...there's an obvious pattern of disruptive editing. Well...it's been obvious to me for a long time...but I don't see any evidence that your behavior will change any time soon. So eventually it will be obvious to other editors as well. --Xerographica (talk) 21:58, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

This is your last warning. The next time you make personal attacks on other people, as you did at WP:Articles for deletion/Freedom of choice, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on fellow editors. Your cute, snide, disruptive comments, such as asking Rubin if he is aware of what Misplaced Pages is about (as in here: ) are just intolerable. Again and again people have pleaded with you, cajoled you, and warned you to cut out with the comments that are directed towards other editors. You've received final warnings in the past, to no avail, but I will give you one more. Expect an Administrator's Noticeboard action if you keep this up. You were defiant in the past and your attitude got you weeks and weeks of blocks. Your editing experience on WP faces the same fate if you keep this up. STOP with the insulting, malicious, unfounded comments directed towards other editors. – S. Rich (talk) 06:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Please copy and paste exactly what it was that I said that you consider to be a personal attack. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 06:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)