Misplaced Pages

Thank you very much for your reply. I'll contact some other users and then we can delete it. Cheers. —Khoikhoi 03:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I've decided to remove it. —Khoikhoi 03:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Sources

I provide the following sources for further investigation on the issue:

UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2004/SR.16, 30 March 2004, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Sixtieth session, Held at the Palais des Nations, Geneva, on Tuesday, 23 March 2004, at 10 a.m., Chairperson: Mr. SMITH (Australia) ():

7. Ms. GRAF (International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples) said that the Pontians, a minority from a historical settlement in northern Turkey, were suffering discrimination at the hands of the Turkish authorities. Most Pontians were Muslims and while they all felt great attachment to their language, ancient Greek, it had been banned in Turkish schools. Pontian families with relatives living in Europe were often intimidated by the police, sometimes through the use of forged evidence of collaboration with Kurdish guerrilla groups. Those with family connections in Greece were particularly vulnerable, as illustrated by the case of Fethi Gultepe, who had been arrested while travelling via Istanbul to visit his family, and accused of attempting to establish a Pontian State. The Special Rapporteur on racism should consider that case and the plight of the Pontians in general.

UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2002/NGO/30, 25 January 2002, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Fifty-eighth session, Item 11 (c) of the provisional agenda, CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE QUESTIONS OF: FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION

Written statement* submitted by the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP), a non-governmental organizations in special consultative status ()

Under this agenda item, the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP) would like to bring before the Commission on Human Rights the case of the Pontians, living in the historic region of Pontos, from Sinope (Sinop) to Trapezous (Trabzon) now in Turkey. Our concern is about the restrictions to their freedom of expression showing their cultural identity formed over thousands of years.

The present communication refers to the part of the Pontian people who remained in their historic territories, and elsewhere in Turkey

Historical Background

The presence of the Pontians is traced back in the 8th century B.C., before the emergence of the Pontian Kingdom in the North Coast of Asia Minor. Indeed, Pontian culture roots are to be found in their history, notably during the classical era (with philosophers and historians such as Diogenes, Strabon, etc.) of the Hellenistic period and then in the Byzantine epoch.

After the Ottoman conquest in the middle of the 15th century their living conditions, their unity and communal life as a Christian people, was deeply affected by the system of the Ottoman power and administration, based on the distinction between Muslims and non-Mulims. In the 19th century, due to the Ottoman-Russian wars, the Pontians were subjected to several exoduses. The systematic elimination of the Christian Pontians through mass murder and ethnic cleansing took place in the first quarter of the 20th century and especially between 1916 and 1923, as part of a longstanding policy of thorough turkization of the whole Asia Minor.

The Pontians who could remain in Pontos had become Muslims or were compelled to islamization, thus escaping destruction and dispersion. It is known that the population exchange according to the Lausanne Treaty (1923) between Greece and Turkey was defined on the basis of religion and not on the basis of the ethnic identity of the populations of both sides. The Pontians who took refuge in the Caucausus and in Russia were subjected to further exoduses within the Soviet Union. Now, apart from Greece, a sizable Pontian diaspora is found in USA, Europe, Australia and elsewhere.

An ancient culture in jeopardy of survival

Even though the islamized Pontians of Pontos were for decades deprived of the right to communicate with the Pontians of Greece and of the countries of the ex-Soviet Union, and even though they suffered, for decades systematic policies of disarticulation of their communities, they continue to insist on their particular Pontian identity. "We are Pontians", they declare still today. Especially in the last decades this sense of a particular identity is increasing and is being coupled with actions of intellectual and cultural enhancing. However, even careful attempts of the new Pontian intellectuals to express verbally or in writing the history, the cultural identity of this people, are facing harsh measures by the Turkish authorities. During the last years the lives of the Pontian intellectuals who dare to express their views are reliably reported to be threatened, some of them with death. This repression is accompanied by pseudo-scientific attempts to distort the three thousand year-old rich history of this people and of this area. Those attempts are made by Turkish propagandists and by so-called professors. The official discourse claims that this historic people is of Turkish descent. A typical example of this conduct of the authorities is a television series performed some time ago in Trapezous, in which a retired officer of the Turkish army and a would-be professor hammered on the one hand, the Turkish descent of the Pontians and on the other, uttered threats towards the Pontians who claim the right to keep contacts with Pontians in Greece. Moreover, Pontian travelers from Greece during their visits in Pontos, are subjected to strict control and surveillance by the Turkish authorities.

Repressive measures endanger language

It appears that a sizeable part of the islamized Pontians, especially the communities of Trapezous, Tonia, Ophe, Sourmena (Surmene), Matsouka (Macka) as well as those of the peripheral municipalities of Contantinople (Istanbul) have preserved intact their Pontian language. Thus, in those areas, the language which is known to be the closest to the ancient Greek is kept alive. In fact, this language is today illegal in Pontos and in Turkey. Of course there is no school where the Pontians could learn, cultivate and develop their language. The existing schools are Turkish. The young Pontian boys and girls - especially those from the inland - due to the fact that their families cling to their own language and do not know Turkish, have their first contact with this language in the Turkish schools and are forced to learn it with harsh educational methods. It is reported that in the elementary schools there exists a network of young student-informers in charge of denouncing to their teachers the Pontian pupils speaking between themselves their own language, who are then taken up by their teachers or even the police with brutal methods of persuasion. In the high schools, the task of terrorization is apparently devoted to racist and fascist groups, inter alia the "Grey Wolves". Those educational conditions exclude the Pontian students from university and higher studies. Students of Pontian descent who try to express their Pontian conscience and culture through periodicals run a risk of being sentenced to jail by the Turkish authorities.

The Turkish state through policies stemming from its constitutional and legal framework together with its authoritarian structures, eliminates the words Pontos and Pontians, and represses individual and collective attempts of peaceful expression of the thought and conscience of the Pontian identity.

Expression of the Pontian culture must be saved

Describing this situation , the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP) would like to insist on the lack of freedom of expression of a particular people, the Pontians in present-day Turkey. This situation ought to be known by the international community. Further, interventions towards its alleviation is a step for safeguarding a living culture which has enriched mankind.

Embassy of Greece - Press Office:

...In his address, Karamanlis called the massacre of the Pontians a 'dark page" in the history of humanity.

He criticized the Greek State for not taking an initiative for international recognition of the sacrifice of the Pontians, and called on Turkey to realize that if it wished to become a member of the European Union, it must stop threatening and making claims on its neighbors and stop insulting international organizations.

A peaceful protest march was also staged by Greek-Australians to the Turkish Consulate in Melbourne, where they posted a resolution condemning the Pontian genocide and reaffirming their determination to continue their efforts for its recognition.

So, from the last one, I guess it hasn't been recognised yet, but there are efforts toward that direction...  NikoSilver  10:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

1 million Pontian Greeks killed????

Oh my God, how did you come up with such an inflated number? Is there any limit to one's imagination? What is the basis for this number? You just can't manufacture historical facts like that. It is doubtful that 1 million Greeks ever existed in Pontus in any period of history. The article on Pontic Greeks claims that there are more than 2 million Pontic Greeks living in the world today. This number boggles my mind and it can't be true. 1 million Pontian Greeks killed and still 2 million Pontian Greeks living in the World today???? Considering the fact that the entire population of the Ottoman Empire at the turn of the century was 40 million people (including Muslims and Christians) and that Greeks didn't even constitute the majority of the Black Sea population, all these numbers about the Pontian Greeks living in the World today and those that were killed sound utterly fantastic to me.

I am also quite offended that the paragraph that I added to the Pontian Greek Genocide article called "Arguments Against" was deleted by the same user with an IP number of 87.203.236.72 Clearly this person wants to dictate his opinions to Misplaced Pages by brute force regardless of the truth. I will make one more attempt to reinstate the version by Khoikhoi dated 04:25, 25 May 2006. If the User:87.203.236.72 deletes that version and reinstates his imaginary 1 million number, I refuse to play this silly game. He can have his way. In the meantime, the victim is Misplaced Pages, the 💕. Let's not allow Misplaced Pages to be turned into a political battleground. ---Vikiyazar 15:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree to that version (with the data at hand). I will help you defend it, unless someone provides sources...  NikoSilver  15:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought the number was more like 350,000. --Telex 15:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, me too, but 300.000 is not far off. Now, if you cite this, however...  NikoSilver  16:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

1 million is definitely an exaggerated figure, my sources say that some 1,3 million was deported and some 300-360,000 was killed in the process. This is a very good article, I was thinking to start it myself. We also need to work on the Pontic Greeks article which is a miserable condition. I think the same anon is edit-warring in "Greco-Turkish war" and refuses to accept the sources. Miskin 16:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Added disputed tag

For the simple reason that no one but the Greek parliament seems to recognise it as genocide. A more acceptable name is needed for this article. --A.Garnet 16:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

And your proposal would be? (bear in mind that a Google test would have to be conducted) --Telex 16:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We'll see about that Garnet. Leave the tag though for the time being, until of course I provide the sources. Miskin 16:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We know there are sources for this title - the matter is to do with POVs. Some people don't think this is a case of genocide, and it's their right. Garnet proposes renaming the article to "something", but that's no good - to where do you want it renamed? Pontian Massacre perhaps? --Telex 16:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

That test means nothing Telex. You will get more results for "Turkish Cypriot genocide" than you will for "Turkish Cypriot massacres", doesnt justify the former. Almost all the results for "Pontian Greek genocide" are either on Greek websites, or posted by Greeks - and to be fair, it returns only 590 results. "The Holocaust" returns 51,800,000, "Armenian genocide" returns "1,590,000" - I hope you can see the insignificance of 590 google results. --A.Garnet 17:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

So what are you proposing? --Telex 17:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose Pontian ethnic cleansing so that we also include the deported alternative. It doesn't include genocide, although it is one alternative method for cleansing. Right?  NikoSilver  17:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

How about Mysterious disappearances: the Pontian Greeks of Anatolia? --Telex 17:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose to stick with "genocide", this term has an academic basis, whether or not it is recognised by an international organization is irrelevant. Miskin 17:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

What academic basis? Armenians can always hit back that they have a load of academics and international organisations to support their cause, but i cannot see anywhere near the same amount of support for this alleged genocide. Where can you refer me to which suggests the majority of impartial scholars support your argument that Pontians suffered a genocide? --A.Garnet 17:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

What academic basis? something like that I suppose: "Finally we can sum up the overall nationalist genocide. It totals almost 880,000 Armenian and Greek deaths, as we can see from the table 10.1... Since the post-World War I years, few remember or write about the Greek genocide. I know of no work in English focusing on it. But numerous scholars have studied the Armenian genocide and since the 1960s it has become particularly well publicized... Perhaps general appreciation of this genocide is now second only to that of the Jews... To this day, Turkey absolutely denies that her past governments committed any genocide or mass murder. In this she is aided by the silence of those nations whose archives amply document it. Among them is the United States, which, despite the official contemporary reports of its ambassador and consular officials, now adamantly refuses to recognize this clear genocide. Turkey is a member of NATO, was deemed essential for defense of the southern tier against Soviet aggression during the Cold War, and has since that time been deemed an important Western friend in a hostile and volatile region..." R. J. Rummel, Death by government.
This is only an example of how the Pontic genocide is recognised within academic circles. There are of course many more. Miskin 17:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thats a quote from a book, but again can you point me to anywhere which suggests there is an academic consensus that Greeks suffered genocide - enough to justify the title of this article? Are there any other encylopedias which carry the same title? --A.Garnet 17:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Since when does wikipedia restrict its article naming policy according to the variety of other encyclopaedias? Unbiased books are as credible as other encyclopaedias, and I can bring up more citations if this one doesn't convince you. Miskin 18:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)