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Revision as of 15:06, 10 May 2013 editZad68 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,355 edits two more deaths from oral genital circumcision contact-moral duty of WP to inform readers of this dangerous practice: add← Previous edit Revision as of 15:15, 10 May 2013 edit undoZad68 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,355 edits two more deaths from oral genital circumcision contact-moral duty of WP to inform readers of this dangerous practice: add detailNext edit →
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::::::Tippy - you brought up emotion, Zad raised an "airy hypothetical" while I offered several concrete rationales -so exactly what is it you wish to say ?--—&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 14:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC) ::::::Tippy - you brought up emotion, Zad raised an "airy hypothetical" while I offered several concrete rationales -so exactly what is it you wish to say ?--—&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 14:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::The daily mail is not a proper reference. Please use a review article or major textbook. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:44, 10 May 2013 (UTC) :::::::The daily mail is not a proper reference. Please use a review article or major textbook. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:44, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::This isn't even a matter of sourcing but context. What the newspapers are talking about is a ritual called "metzitzah b'peh", it's done only after the foreskin removal (the topic of this article), it's only done by a very small group, and it's thought to be the cause of about one case of herpes per year. There is good sourcing for it, for example a Pediatrics article . This is already well-covered at ] but the sourcing I've reviewed for the overall topic of circumcision doesn't give it enough prominence for inclusion here. I've tried to explain this many times now, why Tumadoireacht keeps bringing it back up here is anybody's guess, although Tumadoireacht has brought up the idea it's a "moral duty to include mention of this dangerous cultural practice" here, without concern for the how the sources handle it. <code>]]</code> 15:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC) ::::::::This isn't even a matter of sourcing but context. What the newspapers are talking about is a ritual called "metzitzah b'peh", it's done only after the foreskin removal (the topic of this article), it's only done by a very small group, and it's thought to be the cause of about one case of herpes per year. There is good sourcing for it, for example a Pediatrics article covers 8 individual case reports over 9 years. This is already well-covered at ] but the sourcing I've reviewed for the overall topic of circumcision doesn't give it enough prominence for inclusion here. I've tried to explain this many times now, why Tumadoireacht keeps bringing it back up here is anybody's guess, although Tumadoireacht has brought up the idea it's a "moral duty to include mention of this dangerous cultural practice" here, without concern for the how the sources handle it. <code>]]</code> 15:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:15, 10 May 2013

Good articleCircumcision has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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lead photo

Does anyone else feel that, as we are so pernickity about up to date "medical" references that having a lead photo of a few turbaned gentlemen from over a hundred years ago is a bit passé ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 13:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

That particular image is (as far as I know) the only circumcision-related image we have on Misplaced Pages that is Featured-quality content. As the info page for the image itself states, "members of the community have identified it as one of the finest images on the English Misplaced Pages, adding significantly to its accompanying article" and it was also selected a picture of the day on the English Misplaced Pages for May 22, 2010. The one image brings together three of the most important aspects of the article's topic: the procedure itself, the procedure's religious and cultural significance, and the procedure's history. I can't imagine a better or more-qualified image. Based on your past suggestions, I know you look to the French and German articles as models, and for what it's worth, this image is also the main image on both of those two languages' Misplaced Pages articles. Zad68 14:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Whatever past accolades the picture has received Za(are you sure you listed them all ?), you and several other editors have been at pains to point out (and ensure) that this article is chiefly, about the clinical procedure, which, per the article volume devoted to western hospital foreskin clipping is most prominent. Going from the particular aspects of the French and German MC articles which I have praised in the past (e.g. their coverage of the legal minefield of MC and the human rights, recycling of foreskins, and psychological aspects and the injury rates- so far oddly missing from this "featured" candidate English article) to a general illogical extension of my argument is, once again, part of the novel approach you so often tickle me with.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 14:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Nope; I do not think the image detracts at all. It is of high quality, it is inoffensive, and, as was mentioned, was considered a featured image. -- Avi (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps its inoffensiveness is its most attractive feature.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 20:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps you want this article to be like german.WP article on the topic: chock full with gruesome, horrific color photographs of the outcomes of botched circumcisions, never mind that such severe consequences are exceedingly rare.82.113.99.79 (talk) 21:41, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
That would be overkill but a photo of an actual circumcision in the main article about circumcision would not go amiss....--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 18:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

We would do well to emulate the German article on this subject; negative outcomes of genital cutting are being suppressed with great dedication in the English article. I agree with Tumaidoreacht and would further say that images of various types of cutting procedures and styles, in various states of healing, would not be amiss. "Normal" and "botches" outcomes should be viewable as well, so people know what they may be getting into. The article can still say that botches are rare. Tobias8844 (talk) 03:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Saying botches are rare on the one hand and then putting in a bunch of eye-catching photos emphasizing them would clearly be WP:UNDUE here. However, such photos would probably make sense at Circumcision surgical procedure. Also you appear to view this article as providing medical advice ("so people know what they may be getting into"), that's an incorrect view, see WP:MEDICAL. Zad68 04:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
The arguments advanced for a continuing incomplete article are often remarkable. Surgical accidents and negative outcomes may be comparatively rare per the poor stats gathered about them in "Western" medicine but are much more common in tribal and non surgical settings per the literature. Also the diffidence amongst some editors about including photos of the penis during the actual procedure and the apparatus, or cutting tools used (baby restraint harness et cetera) is remarkable. What will be of interest to future examiners of the subject and of the wikipedia article versions of it which dominated at this time will be the contortions engaged in to have the article continue to have its current flavour for such an extended period. Is it necessary to say also again that as circumcision is generally not a medical procedure but a cultural one that the "we cannot dispense medical advice" stance is a red herring --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 21:49, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE is not an "argument advanced for a continuing incomplete article", but rather a fundamental component of Misplaced Pages content policy. What might be appropriate for a detailed article (e.g. Circumcision surgical procedure) might not be appropriate for an overview article (such as this one). Also, I have not seen anyone here asserting that this article "is chiefly, about the clinical procedure". On the contrary, only the "Techniques" section focuses primarily on that topic, while the vast majority of the article is about various other circumcision-related topics. Jayjg 21:46, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
@Jayjig - How surprising that a Master Editor at level three (no less!) would confuse the citing of a policy to support a dubious argument with the policy itself. It may also have escaped your notice that a great deal of the discussion of this article takes place elsewhere. But then the concomitant barnstar swopping amongst the editors who currently dictate the content of this page seems to be contagious. Do all belong to a particular type of group ? Should such partisan memberships be declared in editing such a contentious article ? Should some recuse themselves even? The current leader of the pack and present self appointed gatekeeper of the article has defined the article as being chiefly about the clinical procedure and has also justified reversions on that basis. With your highly developed skills finding these occasions in this page history and in WikiProject Medicine should present no barrier. Or maybe you could just ask the editor concerned.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 18:18, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
@Zad -you might find this essay co-written by frequent editor on this page Doc James on the usefulness of WP for spreading health information enlightening http://www.jmir.org/2011/1/e14/ Enjoy--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 01:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Wrong information oddly expressed re Jewish requirement for male circumcision - also new section on film,fiction and humour about circumcision

"Circumcision is not required by Judaism for one to be considered Jewish, but adherents foresee serious negative spiritual consequences if it is neglected"

The above sentence in the current article is untrue. The second section "adherents foresee serious negative spiritual consequences if it is neglected" is both a fuzzy wording and only a part of the truth. Most of the Jewish sub sects and all the big important ones require male infant or adult male convert circumcision and vigourously shun males who are not cut . This "cutting off" ( pun presumably unintended) is called Kareth or Kareit, and can involve a severe "sending to Coventry" type of social exclusion or even killing ! http://en.wikipedia.org/Kareth I propose to amend the article to include this.

On an unrelated front, I am considering writing a new subsection under" culture" referencing portrayals of circumcision by film makers, fiction writers and comedians. Any ideas from other editors on content or references appreciated.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 10:29, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the Judaism sentence, I reviewed the sources cited and the current wording in the article does indeed reflect the sources accurately. I also double-checked the information against other authoritative sources and they corroborate what the sources used say. What other authoritative reliable secondary source are you proposing to have this article section use? You mention the article Kareth but please note that Misplaced Pages articles cannot cite other Misplaced Pages articles as references (see WP:CIRCULAR) and the Kareth article itself does not cite any sources that can be reused here to support the change you're proposing.
Regarding the "Popular culture" proposal, what reliable secondary sources will you be providing to ensure the new content complies with the Misplaced Pages policy regarding due and undue weight? The sources I have reviewed that survey the general topic of circumcision do not really emphasize this. Bolnick 2012 chapter 23 does make a brief mention of circumcision humor specific to Judaism, but not enough for a new section on just that in this article, although it could be added to brit milah. Zad68 12:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Not all circumcision humourous or fiction references are concerned with Judaism Za. I have already mentioned the cosmetic aspect addressed over several episodes of Nip Tuck. With regard to references for shunning and circumcision within Judaism: The Mishnah, Genesis 17:10-14, Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews 3.12:1,Teshuvah, 8:5,Year book of the Central Conference of American Rabbis: Volume 27 Central Conference of American Rabbis. "There is no more sacred rite in Judaism," says Rabbi Stephen Wylen of Temple Beth Tikvah, a Reform synagogue in Wayne. "To be Jewish and not to be circumcised is to be outside the fold."

Genesis 17:10-14 mandates that a Jewish boy be circumcised on the eighth day after his birth.

"This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised," God commands Abraham, the Jewish patriarch. "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Twenty-eight centuries later, the threat of shunning - as well as the fear of disappointing generations of ancestors, some of whom died defending their loyalty to Judaism -still weighs heavily on Jewish parents.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 22:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

You have not yet provided an authoritative reliable secondary source to support any of your proposed content. Proposing to base content on an episode of a TV show you saw that had a circumcision in it doesn't demonstrate compliance with the Misplaced Pages content policy of WP:WEIGHT as I mentioned. Proposing to base content on your personal interpretations of ancient religious primary source texts is extremely problematic; in fact, it's such a problem that Misplaced Pages has a template {{Religious text primary}} for exactly that.
You appear to be using one of the anti-circumcision sites http://jewishcircumcision.org or http://www.circumstitions.com to find sources. May I ask why you would think it would be appropriate to base encyclopedia content on such partisan sites? Zad68 02:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Is it your assertion Za, that the majority of jewish sects do NOT require male circumcision for membership ? Is this why you resist and revert any mention of shunning by Jews of the uncircumcised ? Why otherwise  ? Your suggestion that I use anti circumcision/male genital mutilation sites to find references for shunning by jews of uncircumcised males is incorrect and mildly abusive as is the corollary you attempt to shoe in. Please desist from such attributions and attacks Try a little harder to address the arguments and evidence raised and less of your opinions about perceived failings or motivations of your fellow editors.(Such attacks do not contribute to improving the article and are against both the spirit and rules of WP) For example, as raised above - could there be a more muddled and obscure sentence than "adherents foresee serious negative spiritual consequences if it is neglected" Which adherents ? adherents of what ? how do they do the foreseeing? spiritual consequences? neglected? --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 13:05, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
The statement is sourced. You have provided no sources. Give us some. TippyGoomba (talk) 17:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/beliefs/conversion.shtml http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=27282 http://judaism.about.com/od/conversion/f/conversion_how.htm

Donin, Hayim, To Be a Jew: A Guide to Jewish Observance in Contemporary Life

Perhaps the BBC are mistaken or the jewish federation misinformed ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 13:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

So yes it appears that to become Jewish per the BBC one needs to be circumcised if male. However it does not state that if born Jewish to remain Jewish one needs to be circumcised. What text exactly do you want to support with it? The next ref states that this is only required for conversion by a "conservative rabbi" . It seems to imply if done by a liberal rabbi it is not needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Given the rather large number of academic sources available on Jewish practices, I would strongly recommend using them, rather than about.com, Jewish Federation, or news organization websites. Jayjg 21:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
"Circumcision is not required by Judaism for one to be considered Jewish"- this is what the article currently states. This statement is true for females and for some of the tiny minority of breakaway modern jewish sects It is not true for the majority of male jews.Is it the position of editors opposing mention of the jewish requirement to be cut and the shunning of the uncut males (and awarding each other barnstars for opposing such mention !) that circumcision and shunning are not mandated ? I propose changing the wording to" Judaism generally requires male circumcision and those uncircumcised are ostracized per the custom of kareth"--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 09:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I think you might be misunderstanding the meaning of kareth. There is no duty on the community to ostracise anyone who has violated a commandment that bears the punishment of kareth. Even those who wilfully out of sentiment against God violate commandments (mumar le-hach'is) are not excommunicated (barring specific exceptions).
According to Jewish thought, the punishment of kareth is enacted by the Heavenly Court and not on earth. JFW | T@lk 18:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
From WP article on Kareth "In most cases the Torah uses the term such as that in Leviticus 18:29; the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people, which he says is a reference to a punishment in this world. " Are you maintaining that uncircumcised jews are welcomed unconditionally by other jews ? ˜ Perhaps I should be referring to Cherem instead ? Interestingly circumcision amongst swedish jews runs currently at about 40% but at above 90% amongst jews in the USA and Israel. It is odd that a religion would ban other mutilations of the body and insist on this one. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0004_0_04318.html--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 20:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I can only speak confidently about Orthodox Judaism, but someone born a Jew remains a Jew regardless of what he or she does—it is impossible to "relinquish" ones Jewishness. One can only exercise one's own free will and choose to honor the traditions—adhere to the commandments—or not. -- Avi (talk) 22:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I did not think we were discussing the relinquishing of Jewishness but the merits of mentioning in the article that the majority of jewish sects require males to be circumcised and shun uncut males . At present the article says the opposite. It appears that Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Orthodox all cut, while Classical Reform, Humanistic,Neolog,and Jewish Renewal and Jewish Science branches are less likely to cut.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 00:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
They are no more or less likely to be shunned than those who eat on Yom Kippur, which is also an isur kares - a prohibition whose punishment is kares. The covenant of circumcision is thousands of years old, and Jews believe it is one of the first commandments ever given (second, to be precise) and is indicative of the bond between G-d and Israel. So it actually stands to reason that even the less traditional main branches of Judaism (e.g. Conservative, Reform) would still maintain this tradition, I believe. -- Avi (talk) 01:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Tumadoireacht, your most recent proposal was " Judaism generally requires male circumcision and those uncircumcised are ostracized per the custom of kareth" but as noted above you did not provide sufficient sourcing to support it. In particular, the assertion "those uncircumcised are ostracized per the custom of kareth" wasn't supported by any source you brought. You need to provide authoritative reliable sourcing and modify your proposed content so that it reflects the sourcing accurately. Zad68 04:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Have you just contradicted yourself Zad ? Also note Avi's remarks directly above yours, and the acknowledgment of Doc James There are exceptions to the rules within Judaism about circumcision -i.e for haemophiliacs or male siblings of those who have died under the mohels knife but the majority are still bound by what Avi refers to as the second commandment. Most of my questions about the current misguided wording remain unanswered--in particular the second part of the sentence ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 06:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
What is your updated article content change suggestion and what sources are you providing to support it? Zad68 15:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Tuma, I would argue with the "ostracized" phrase, as kares is not a socially-imposed interaction ban, that is a cherem (which really is unused today). Kares is a divinely implemented punishment; something very different. -- Avi (talk) 15:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, and more fundamentally, Tumadoireacht has not yet provided any authoritative reliable sourcing to support the assertion that in society and culture, for the religion Judaism, lack of circumcision results in ostracism. Zad68 15:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
And I doubt he will, for the reason that I believe it is incorrect, as I posted above. -- Avi (talk) 17:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

two more deaths from oral genital circumcision contact-moral duty of WP to inform readers of this dangerous practice

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304793/Two-babies-stricken-HERPES-ritual-oral-blood-sucking-circumcision-New-York-City.html Do we have a moral duty to include mention of this dangerous cultural practice to WP readers ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 20:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

"moral duty"? Is that how you see your involvement at this article?

To answer your more general question, paraphrased as "Should this be mentioned to WP readers?", the answer is Yes and it is already covered at Brit_milah#Metzitzah_Techniques. You were involved in pretty much the exact same discussion six weeks ago, is there a reason you're bringing this up again? Zad68 20:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Reason ? - Yes -Fresh scrotum lesions, 2 more lifelong infections, and the ongoing mortal danger to these and 3,600 other kids annually from a dangerous cultural procedure that many parents are uninformed about -hence the question about the morality of suppressing this information in the main overview article. Do you see your involvement as above moral consideration ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 23:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
But it's more complicated than that. What if you come across information you feel would be your moral duty to include in an article, but Misplaced Pages content policy would not allow it - say, for example, you're sure the information is true but the sourcing for it does not technically meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines. As you are the editor driven by moral duty, what would you do? Zad68 04:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
A better title which I keep changing it to is brit milah#oral suction because this is the practice in question which is receiving all the attention. "Techniques" is a vague way of avoiding that, and completely unsourced. Ranze (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
No, we don't have a moral duty. These things need to be argued rationally. Why don't you make a rational argument, instead of an emotional plea that will be rejected out of hand. TippyGoomba (talk) 04:31, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
Shoals of red herrings abound ! No emotion, and no rule defying information and no airy hypotheticals either -just notable facts folks -perfectly in line with the highest ideals of wikipedia and part too of the vision of health promotion envisaged by Doc James and others -what is not to love ? --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 05:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
No emotion, and no rule defying information and no airy hypotheticals either. Yes, exactly. TippyGoomba (talk) 15:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
Tippy - you brought up emotion, Zad raised an "airy hypothetical" while I offered several concrete rationales -so exactly what is it you wish to say ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 14:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The daily mail is not a proper reference. Please use a review article or major textbook. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:44, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
This isn't even a matter of sourcing but context. What the newspapers are talking about is a ritual called "metzitzah b'peh", it's done only after the foreskin removal (the topic of this article), it's only done by a very small group, and it's thought to be the cause of about one case of herpes per year. There is good sourcing for it, for example a Pediatrics article here covers 8 individual case reports over 9 years. This is already well-covered at Brit milah#Metzitzah B'Peh but the sourcing I've reviewed for the overall topic of circumcision doesn't give it enough prominence for inclusion here. I've tried to explain this many times now, why Tumadoireacht keeps bringing it back up here is anybody's guess, although Tumadoireacht has brought up the idea it's a "moral duty to include mention of this dangerous cultural practice" here, without concern for the how the sources handle it. Zad68 15:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
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