Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:28, 25 May 2013

Nazi Germany received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Nazi Germany article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15Auto-archiving period: 2 months

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. History High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. European history High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: European / German / World War II This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  European military history task force German military history task force World War II task force Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Germany Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Former countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Austria Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:Misplaced Pages CD selection Template:Controversial (history)

Dating of Nazi Germany & Hitler's dictatorship

Ladies and gentleman - as a matter of historical clarity - it would benefit many to be more precise when dating the period of "Nazi Germany". The language currently in place is beneficial in that the process by which the Nazi Party, precisely, Adolf Hitler, began to achieve his dictatorship indeed became more real with his appointment as Chancellor by the President of the struggling Weimar Republic, Paul Von Hindenburg, 01/30/33. And, was indeed accelerated by the passing of the Enabling Act of March 1933. He was of this period, however, still facing serious challenges to his ultimate goal: Full and real dictatorship.

Once the Enabling Act became law, after the Federal elections held 03/05/33, 56% of the seats of the Reichstag were still controlled by opposing parties. President Hinderburg controlled the German military as Commander and Chief as stipulated by the Constitution which was not taken from him by the Enabling act. Read Article 2 of the Enabling Act. Though Hitler had established an impressive paramilitary force, he had no power to direct or command the military forces of the Weimar Republic as Chancellor under the Enabling Act. Nor, was Hindendurg a sympathetic supporter of Hitler or was the Vice- Chancellor, Franz von Papen of the nationalist monarchist party to which Hindenburg was. This is a far cry from being a bona fide dictator with "dictatorial powers". Though Hitler abused his power under the Enabling Act - this was not the goal - far from it.

Rather, he achieved his objective with the death of President 08/02/34, the passing of legislation that same day stipulating he was the sole ruler of Germany, the dissolution of the remaining parties in the Reichstag soon after and an national referendum vote - yes or no - held August 19, 1934 with the Nazi Party legislation being the only selection on the ballot. This is when he achieved his goal as dictator and Nazi Germany came to full bloom. Thank you for your consideration. All this is properly cited on Misplaced Pages concerning these specific points. I encourage you to research this point. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Integrtiyandhonesty (talk • contribs) 16:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Hitler reached his ultimate goal through events of 1934; however, the start date for Hitler and the Nazi Party as far as the beginning of national power in Germany is seen as Jan. 1933 by mainstream historians/authors. Now, it is true that national power was gained, in the end, by Hitler's appointment as Chancellor, like the others before him (during that timeframe); so after it was handed to him, Hitler started on the path of consolidation of power into a dictatorship (which was not completed until 1934). The process known as Gleichschaltung (coordination) of social and political control into NSDAP control. Kershaw, Hitler: A Biography, pp. 260-261; McNab, The Third Reich, p. 14 and Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, p. 154. Kierzek (talk) 04:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Kierzek Rjensen (talk) 04:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

These are good points, Kierzek. It comes to how the phrase, "Nazi Germany", is defined. And, the image that creates in the mind of a reader. It implies the Nazi Party had full absolute control of Germany in 1933. Does it not?

If we define "Nazi Germany" as full and complete control then this period start date of, 1933, is vaguely correct, but woefully, imprecise. The Nazi Party of 1933 still faced serious obstacles: In March of 1933 - post the Enabling Act -, 56% of the Reichstag seats were controlled by opposing parties, the President of the Weimar Republic, Paul von Hindenburg, was still Commander and Chief of the military and remained so through 1933, and until his death, 08/02/34. His cohort , Franz von Papen, and the vast majority of his constituents: the aristocracy, the Weimar military and the industrialists class were not sympathetic of the Nazi Party in 1933. Most of Franz von Papen's constituents/adherents were supporting a bicameral monarchy modeled after Great Britain, or the Weimar Republic, throughout 1933. And, in fact, this carried into and throughout the war period. A major thorn in the side of the Nazi Party - and the source of many inside plots against Hitler.

Even though Hitler abused the "Enabling Act" to ban his rivals starting in July of 1933 and other such abuses? They, namely, the Socialists and Communists, took to "the streets" and underground causing serious resistance in 1933. Some of this was financed by the Soviet Union. It may be helpful to point this out - and - introduce an intermediate period, say 01/33 - 8/34, that offers much more clarity that reflects history as it happened. All that is referenced here is cited on Misplaced Pages - in part to your good work. Thank you again.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Integrtiyandhonesty (talk --67.167.210.70 (talk) 19:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)• contribs) 14:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

As we reflect and discern the insightful theory of - Gliechshaltung - contributed by, Sir Richard J. Evans? It is a sociological study of transformation covering the period 1933-37: how the Nazi Party implemented, achieved and maintained its absolute authoritarian rule over Germany. It does not, nor attempts to, define: "Nazi Germany".

As was rightfully pointed out, this process of transformation began, in real terms: in 1933. Its achievement was not fully realized - politically and/or in terms of governance - until 08/19/34 with the Referendum vote, which we seem to have reached a consensus. This achievement was then cemented/reinforced by a series of programs of indoctrination on a national scale, such as, mandated participation in Youth groups, and so on, which were in full stride by 1937.

Are we stating then that "Nazi Germany" ended in 1937 in line with Sir Evans theory just as we are with the start date? Of course, we're not, however, to state "Nazi Germany" was truly "Nazi Germany" in 1933? Is akin to stating WW II in Europe ended 06-06-44, the Allied invasion of Normandy. It was the beginning of the end, to be sure. But, the Allied Forces had a long road ahead to the end. Thank you all again.

 Integrtiyandhonesty (talk) 23:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)67.167.210.70 (talk) 23:16, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

It was profoundly encouraging to see progress made on this matter without it slipping into an "edit war" followed by a painful journey into that time eating machine known as DNR and/or unwarranted accusations of intentional, or willful "vandalism". As stated, this is a good faith effort seeking genuine clarity of history as it happened vs a vaguely correct "glossing over" leaving much to be desired that creates more questions than answers. Or worse, becomes the source of wholly preventable disputes in the future. So, thank you, Kierzek - and others - who guided me well through this process, thereby, avoiding common lethal pitfalls of earnest good faith editing and offered patient input.

Where this article is now seems a sound compromise. It now reveals the truth of history as it happened more clearly. A further suggestion. Can we agree the definition of "Nazi Germany" can legitimately be stated to have begun in 1933, wherein, the introduction sentence reads this way, or similar language: "Nazi Germany" . . . . common name for Germany during an Era of transformation from a democratic Republic to a totalitarian state under Adolf Hitler and its destruction in by Allied forces in 1945? My sincere, thanks for your consideration. --Integrtiyandhonesty (talk) 04:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

The above was added. However, since then there seems to be a slow edit war brewing over this matter. I don't want that; I only want the article to be correct. The lead sentences did need a little work more work to be clear and Malljaja did a nice job as to ce on them. I then added cites to the points conveyed. The problem seems to be that one or more ip address wants to start the article at the totalitarian state of 1934; however, the problem is that Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany in January 1933 and that is when the Nazis came to national government power or as the Nazis liked to call it, the Machtergreifung, "seizure of power"; the country then transformed from the death-knell of a republic to the totalitarian state under Hitler in 1934. It is important that general readers understand the transition or Gleichschaltung process of what then became known as the Third Reich from then on until 1945. Kierzek (talk) 15:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Large addition about slavs

Editor Yamaha Spirit has added a very large section on Slavs to the article, which I removed as giving this topic undue weight. Jews were the main victims of the Nazi regime, not Slavs. I have reverted the addition twice now, and have brought the matter here for the discussion and opinions of other editors. -- Dianna (talk) 17:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow, wow, wow! What about using numbers? The number of dead Slavs was much higher than the number of dead Jews.

Many German Jews were expelled before the war and survived, the French ones were preserved, the Ostjuden were the main victims. Nothing is obvious.

Xx236 (talk) 06:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Xx236. I don't think you have read the peer review: Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Nazi Germany/archive1. One of the reviewers specifically suggested the removal of peripheral material to leave room for more details on the impact the regime had on Germany, its people, and its economy. Detailed information on the various victims of the regime are better covered in articles about those topics, not here. -- Dianna (talk) 19:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

If it was only "tweaking" of detail (and text) to a small degree, that would be okay; as long as it was cited properly. But otherwise, I would have to agree with Diannaa, per WP:UNDUE. Kierzek (talk) 20:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay maybe not as much as what I put it does need to be emphasized maybe in an additional paragraph that the Nazis still did consider them as racially Aryans but the notion of Slavs being a "racially inferior" peoples was for the political ideologies of Nazi Germany's expansion into Eastern Europe and the fact that the Jewish Bolshevism was said what Slavs belonged to and thus a threat to the Aryan race.

Read below for what I put, I feel that the Slav section is somewhat mis-leading and needs to be made more clearer, for example the Ahnenpass document stated:

"wherever they might live in the world" Aryans were "e.g. an Englishman or a Swede, a Frenchman or a Czech, a Pole or an Italian". Source here, of course like I said it should also mention that there still was anti-Slavic propaganda used for many reasons, the expansion, the invasion of Poland and the USSR, etc etc.

The section on Slavs needs to be made more clear, many "pure Slavs" not just Slavs that were deemed to have Germanic blood in them were also fit to be accepted as Aryans.--Yamaha Spirit (talk) 14:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Another thing is that the Nazis also considered Slavs to be barbarians and would lead to collapse of the Western civilization and that the Jews were running the power in Russia - which again is in accordance to the invasion of the USSR.Source here--Yamaha Spirit (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Slavs section needs to be made more clear!

The Nazis did not view Slavs as non-Aryan because they were not racially Aryan but rather because of the movements the vast majority of Slavs at that time belonged to (at least in the eyes of the Nazis), the emphasis should be added about the racial theorists in Nazi Germany did still view Slavs as Aryans, including Rosenberg - one of the most prominent ones - who also hated the way many were treated although he did have some negative thoughts about certain Slav groups mostly the Poles the Czechs.

The Ahnenpass which was to said to actually prove that one was Aryan and everybody in the Reich had to have one included the Slavs in its description, but like I said many anti-Slavic propaganda was still used by the Nazis.

For example, Danzig was actually originally Polish although the present-day area it is in now was settled by Celtic, Germanic and Baltic tribes as these groups are older than the Slavic tribes) and was founded under Poland yet the Nazis still said that Danzig is German because the Free City Of Danzig was over 90% ethnically German and Hitler and the Nazis wanted this back because it was taken away from Germany after WW1, the Nazis couldn't give a monkeys if it was originally Polish and belonged to Poland. Many borders have changed, the same as Silesia was originally German.

Also, the Nazis had the idea that Bolshevism was what Slavs belonged to and that Slavs were "born slaves" and the Germanic peoples were above all other Europeans (and non-Europeans) including Slavic peoples, Celtic people, Romance people, Baltic people and so on.

But there is nowhere that the Nazis said that the Slavs were not racially Aryans, quite the opposite - they acknowledged the Slavs as racially Aryans.

I find the way the information on the "Attitude towards Slavs" is somewhat not informative enough, all the stuff I put in is cited by credible sources and I see no reason why it was removed. It is important that the idea the Nazis had that Slavs were an inferior race was not racially but politically, the struggle against Jewish Bolshevism which the Slavs belonged to and that the Nazis needed Eastern Europe for living space for the German people it wasn't because Slavs are a different race to Germanics or anything like that, in fact there is just as many or possible even more Slavs with the "ideal Aryan traits" than what is found among Germanics.

I'm not going to say that the Nazis viewed Slavs as on the same level as Germanics but they did still view them as racially Aryans and many were still considered Aryans by the Nazis and there was also several attempts by the Nazis to Germanize the Slavs they found suitable, which included ethnic Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and so on. Also, there was many Slavs who had ranks within the Nazis, including Hitler's own chauffeur Erich Kempka who was an ethnic Pole. Goebbels also had a relationship (rather an affair) with an ethnic Czech, Lída Baarová. There was also many army divisions that was purely Slavic including Polish, Russian and Ukrainian who was on the Nazi side not the Soviets. Also not to be forgotten is the kidnapping of Polish children to be raised as Germanized Germans in Germany.

To say that the Nazis thought that all Slavs were subhuman is inaccurate and not correct. There is no doubt anti-Slavic propaganda was used for the invasion of Poland, the invasion of the USSR, the superiority of Germanics, the justification for living space in Eastern Europe but there is nowhere that they say that Slavs are not racially Aryans, I consider this section to be either a) be reverted to how I put it with the pictures that are currently on it or b) at least altered to make it more clear that the definition of an "Aryan" was not always racially motivated, there was many Germans (and Germanics) who were also deemed non-Aryan.--Yamaha Spirit (talk) 10:41, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted your assertion that the Nazis viewed the Slavs as Aryan. The sources quoted to not back up that claim. None of the sources I have checked so far back up that claim. -- Dianna (talk) 13:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The National Socialist Ahnenpaß understands Aryans expressly following persons, regardless of where they live in the world, "as an Englishman or Swede, a Frenchman or a Czech, a Pole or an Italian." Source here Clearly shows that the Nazis DID acknowledge the Slavs as racially Aryans. The source I provided shows that they were anti-Slavic because of the Bolshevik in the East/Eastern Europe which the Slavs belonged to.

The Ahnenpass I just showed you proves they considered Slavs as racially Aryans and there is no evidence that there did NOT consider them as racially Aryan.--Yamaha Spirit (talk) 15:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

A newspaper article by one unknown editorialist cannot take precedence over serious researchers such as Richard J. Evans and Peter Longerich. In The Holocaust (2010), Longerich says on page 30 that the Nazis conceived of a racial hierarchy with the people at the top being those with the purest Aryan blood. In his biography of Himmler (2012 - page 575), Longerich says that the Nazis defined the Aryan race as those of the Nordic race who spoke Germanic languages - the Teutons. Poles and Slavs were not included in the Aryan race, though they were considered racially superior to Jews and Gypsies. Himmler's policy was to eliminate all the Slavic people in Russia and Poland and replace them with Teutonic Germans (Longerich, 2012, page 579). -- Dianna (talk)

You are confusing the word "Aryan" with "master race" the same as Aryan is often confused with Nordic, Germanic and German.

Stefan Scheil is not an unknown historian to the Germans, the two historians you cited won't exactly be very popular in Germany (or German-speaking countries) will they? No.

Can you even refute the article I sent you instead of just deflecting it by saying he is an "unknown editorialist"? Show me anywhere that the Nazis actually say they are "not racially Aryan". The conception of 'Aryan' by Indo-European definition does include the Slavs.

The Nazis did not consider them racially inferior but rather politically inferior, they did view them lower than Germanics but so was the Celts and so as well. They considered many people 'racially inferior' to the Germanics than just the Slavs, like the Celts and Romantics and so on... below in the master race hierarchy.

Alfred Rosenberg The Myth of the Twentieth Century also considered Slavs to be Aryan, but lesser than Germans. He was pro-Nordic and believed the Germans were superior to everyone else (including other Germanics).

Himmler's own views regarding the Slavs does not necessarily mean the whole of Nazism considered Slavs to be racially inferior. Himmler also considered some Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians and other Slavs to have Aryan "traits" (i.e Nordic) and were seen fit to be Germanised.

Also read this:

He then singled out those nations which he regarded as belonging to the German family of nations and they were: the Germans, the Dutch, the Flemish, the Anglo-Saxons, the Scandinavians and the Baltic people. 'To combine all of these nations into one big family is the most important task at the present time' . 'This unification has to take place on the principle of equality and at that same time has to secure the identity of each nation and its economical independence, of course, adjusting the latter to the interests of the whole German living space (...) After the unification of all the German nations into one family, this family (...) has to take over the mission to include, in the family, all the Roman nations whose living space is favored by nature with a milder climate (...) I am convinced that after the unification, the Roman nations will be able to persevere as the Germans (...) This enlarged family of the White race will then have the mission to include the Slavic nations into the family also because they too are of the White race (...) it is only with such a unification of the White race that the Western culture could be saved from the Yellow race (...) At the present time, the Waffen-SS is leading in this respect because its organization is based on the principle of equality. The Waffen-SS comprises not only German, Roman and Slavic, but even Islamic units and at the same time has proven that every unit has maintained its national identity while fighting in close togetherness (...) I know quite well my Germans. The German always likes to think himself better but I would like to avert this. It is important that every Waffen-SS officer obeys the order of another officer of another nationality, as the officer of the other nationality obeys the order of the German officer. Silgailis, Artur: Latvian Legion. James Bender Publishing, 1986. p. 348 – 349

Also, I've found a Holocaust book that also says "The Nazis viewed Slavic peoples as Aryans".

You need to remember this whole notion of Slavs being "inferior" was because the Nazis believed that the Germanics had a right to conquer Eastern Europe and enslave, expel or even exterminate the population there, they did view the Germanics as higher than any other Europeans, nobody doubts that but the idea of them being subhuman because of their racial origins is bonkers mad.

I have provided two sources which the first you just deflect and don't even bother to refute, it is also used and cited on other Misplaced Pages pages, it is a perfectly cited and fine source to use according to the rules.

Also another one when 'reverting' my edit says that it is about Nazi Germany not Slavs but the article regarding Nazi Germany's policy on Slavs needs to be more clear!

I'm not even Slavic but the way it is now is completely biased. Unless you can actually refute what I said then I see no reason to refute it.--Yamaha Spirit (talk) 14:45, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

What other accounts have you used in the past to edit Misplaced Pages? -- Dianna (talk) 19:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Based on behavioural evidence, I'd say it's likely that YS is the new account of a user who was blocked repeatedly under various names most recently as English Patriot Man. 19:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The user has been blocked as a sock of English Patriot Man. I am glad I only wasted a minimal amount of time on this person's complaint. -- Dianna (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Lead section

I'm starting a new talk page section where we can try to settle the wording of the opening paragraph of the lead. I have just put in a new amendment to say "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a republic into a totalitarian state using the process of Gleichschaltung (coordination)" and am posting here for discussion of this wording. -- Dianna (talk) 19:38, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Sounds okay to me. As I stated in an earlier discussion section "Dating of Nazi Germany & Hitler's dictatorship", it is important that general readers understand the transition or Gleichschaltung process which took place under the Nazis who then turned Germany into a totalitarian state (which became known as the Third Reich until 1945). Kierzek (talk) 23:46, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I haven't had time yet to read all the old talk page discussions but will get to that soon. -- Dianna (talk) 23:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

it is important to state that nazi germany acually was a totalitarian state in the lede after Gleichschaltung, the one you proposed just mentions a transformation INTO a totalitarian state not that it was one Peterzor (talk) 15:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted your edit; the sentence as written clearly states that Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state after Gleichschaltung under Hitler's rule. Your alternative suggestion was grammatically confusing because of an incorrect use of tense. Malljaja (talk) 15:51, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

i have corrected my edits now and am mentioning the Gleichschaltung process Peterzor (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The version present in the article when I got home from work was poorly worded and did not impart the necessary information, so I reverted it. "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was a totalitarian state after the Gleichschaltung (coordination) process" -- this wording is not grammatically correct English and is difficult to understand for that reason. Also, it does not tell the reader that the nation changed from a republic to a totalitarian state. -- Dianna (talk) 18:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Can we not work on a compromise then? i think this is the olny and correct thing to do istead of going to war Peterzor (talk) 19:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Why do you want to remove the information that Germany changed from a republic to a totalitarian state? -- Dianna (talk) 19:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Because the lede is set at "into a totalitarian state" and does not actually state nazi germany as a totalitarian state as in my version "Germany WAS a totalitarian state" Peterzor (talk) 19:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

It was not a totalitarian state until after the process of Gleichschaltung. The process changed it from a republic to a totalitarian state. -- Dianna (talk) 19:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC) I am reporting you for edit warring. -- Dianna (talk) 19:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

How about, "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a republic into the totalitarian state known as the Third Reich using the process of Gleichschaltung (coordination)". Just a thought. Kierzek (talk) 20:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking it might go into the opening sentence: "Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state". It would mean re-working the whole opening paragraph, but it might be worth doing, as we want to use the plainest easy-to-understand language. How about this for a starting point:

Nazi Germany, also known as the Third Reich, was the totalitarian state that existed in Germany during the period from 1933 to 1945, when its government was controlled by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP). Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a republic into a dictatorship using the process of Gleichschaltung (coordination). Nazi Germany ceased to exist at the end of World War II after the allied forces defeated the Wehrmacht in May 1945.

-- Dianna (talk) 22:45, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that it was not a totalitarian state until Aug. 1934; Hitler was in power since Jan. 1933; then the Nazi Gleichschaltung on a national basis began at full bore. So, one cannot say "during the period from 1933 to 1945". See the discussion above at "Dating of Nazi Germany & Hitler's dictatorship" for more detail. I am open to a re-write but the above must be kept in mind. Kierzek (talk) 23:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, you are right and I am wrong. This is why saying "Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state" does not work—it's not true; it was only true for the period from August 1934 until the end of the war. Let's try again; how about this:

Nazi Germany, also known as the Third Reich, was the state that existed in Germany during the period from 1933 to 1945, when its government was controlled by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP). Under Hitler's rule, Germany was gradually transformed from a republic to a totalitarian state using the process of Gleichschaltung (coordination). Nazi Germany ceased to exist at the end of World War II after the allied forces defeated the Wehrmacht in May 1945.

-- Dianna (talk) 01:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

It sounds good, but I would take out the word, "gradually". Otherwise, I believe it covers the facts well. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 16:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

One of the interested parties has been blocked for edit warring, so it might be best to wait. -- Dianna (talk) 18:57, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

-Just to point out: being a totalitarian state (of whatever ideological persuasion) and being a republic are not mutually exclusive: China, North Korea, Syria, Vietnam, Myanmar, and many, many other states are both republics and totalitarian dictatorships. As the Weimar constitution was never repealed and indeed was still technically in effect throughout the existence of Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany was formally (and, in the sense it did not have a monarch, actually) a republic. Perhaps the words 'transformed from a democracy to a totalitarian state' would be better.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 00:24, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Dianna (talk) 00:33, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

empire

Why is the Motto not fully translated?

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer means One People, one Empire, one Leader

I feel the scare, to compare the english empire and some other to the Nazi Empire? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthias2Shalom (talk • contribs) 07:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Translating Reich is problematic. The word designates a state (or group of states under one rule). If ruled by an emperor (Kaiser), it is an empire (Kaiserreich), if ruled by a king (König), it is a kingdom (Königreich). Reich cannot easily be translated when it refers to a territory that is ruled by neither an emperor nor a king; so the word has been adopted in English as a loan word. Cf. The Chambers Dictionary: "Reich: the German state; Germany as an empire (the First Reich) . . . and Third Reich as a dictatorship under the Nazi regime . . .. If we wanted to avoid the loan word and avoid mistranslation, we could translate the slogan as "One people, one state, one leader".--Boson (talk) 17:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I like "state" better than "realm", which implies a kingdom governed by a sovereign. -- Dianna (talk) 18:14, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Since it's a commonly used loanword we could simply keep it as Reich and wikilink it (although that article could do with improving). (Hohum ) 18:17, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Reich has become a commonly used loanword; however, I don't feel strongly about it; state is better than realm. Kierzek (talk) 19:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

"State" would be an unusual translation for "Reich." And Reich is used enough in English such that it does not need to be translated. And this has been discussed at length before. Bytwerk (talk) 02:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Bytwerk, could you please explain why you think "reich" needs to be capitalised in the motto? Unlike German, we don't capitalise nouns in English unless they are proper nouns. Thanks -- Dianna (talk) 03:01, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

'Nazi Germany' corroboration?

The first sentence of this article starts off "Nazi Germany, also known as the Third Reich, is the common name for Germany during the period from 1933 to 1945..." Aside from debate about the exact period this article covers, what evidence is given for the *common* use of this phrase, as opposed to 'Wartime Germany', 'Hitler's Germany', 'Third Reich Germany'? Can it be shown to be a universal term used equally by all nations and academic disciplines? I would suggest that it is not an accurate description, a viewpoint shared by Richard Overy in the web page

http://www.historytoday.com/richard-overy/goodbye-nazis

Would it be accurate to refer to 'Communist Russia' or would 'Soviet Union' be more accurate?

Robata (talk) 15:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Odd as Richard Overy seems to be saying the opposite, that the term is over used but not really valid. Thus the sentence in the lead would be correct, it is the common name.Slatersteven (talk) 15:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The first sentence makes the claim that the term is in common use but no source is provided to back up this claim. You seem to suggest that Mr Overy supports that assumption so perhaps he should be listed as a source? If academics state that use of a term should be restricted and it is not generally applicable, should it be used?

86.14.229.147 (talk) 20:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not academics who say the use of the term "Nazi" is overused. It's one historian – Richard Overy - in one editorial. The editorial actually could be used as a source for the claim that this is the most common term for the era. Google hits on the various phrases used above are as follows: "Nazi Germany" gets 10.1 million hits; "Hitler's Germany": 554,000 hits; "wartime Germany": 41,500 hits "Third Reich Germany": 36,100 hits. -- Dianna (talk) 20:22, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Using the Google ngrams viewer, based on Google Books, it looks as if "Third Reich" is slightly more common in British English, and "Nazi Germany" is slightly more common in US English, but there's not much in it:

• http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Nazi+Germany%2CThird+Reich&year_start=1928&year_end=2008&corpus=18&smoothing=4&share=
• http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Nazi+Germany%2CThird+Reich&year_start=1928&year_end=2008&corpus=17&smoothing=4&share=

"Nazi Germany" seems to have been used more frequently during the War and the post-War period (1943-1968); that was probably the period with more anti-German sentiment.--Boson (talk) 20:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Republic

User:peterzor keeps reverting the words 'from a democracy to a dictatorship' to 'from a republic to a dictatorship' in the opening text, stating that the 'weimar constitutional law was subverted' and that 'nazi germany was never a republic!'

Not only was the former text reached via prior discussion on this talk page, but there are several problems with this, namely:

i. A republic and a dictatorship are not mutually exclusive: modern day North Korea, Syria and Belarus are all examples of present-day states that are both republics and dictatorships; all 'republic' means in constitutional theory is 'a sovereign state that is not headed by a monarch', which was certainly true of Nazi Germany: Hitler never restored the pre-1918 German monarchy.The user is clearly confusing 'republic' with 'democracy', which are NOT synonyms: the UK, Canada, Denmark and the Netherlands for example are all democracies but none of them are republics.

ii. More or less everything Hitler and the Nazis did was perfectly legal under the 1933 Enabling Act which gave the German government extraordinary emergency powers to deal with political enemies, restrict free speech, etc. This was renewed every few years by the Reichstag. There was thus no constitutional difference between what we now call 'the Weimar Republic' and what we now call 'Nazi Germany'. No-one sat down in 1933 and signed a law saying 'the republic is abolished in 1933, or 1934, or any year during the Nazi period for that matter.

iii.Furthermore the Weimar constitution was never abolished by the Nazis and thus remained technically in force from 1933 to 1945, a fact that was remarked upon at the Nuremburg Trials and by foreign newspapers during this period.

'Sources?' I hear you say:

"The old Constitution adopted at Weimar in 1919, when the German Republic was founded, has never been repealed.":

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,755790,00.html TIME Magazine, Feb. 10, 1936

"As Arendt points out, the Nazis never bothered to abolish the old Weimar constitution. They even left the civil services more or less intact (374). When Stalin inaugurated the Soviet constitution in 1936, he declared it ‘provisional’ (394-95). The constitution thus, according to Arendt, was ‘dated’ from the moment of its issuance. It was never repealed.":

http://www.why-war.com/news/2003/04/01/thestate.html Footnote #3. Numbers in parentheses are page numbers in The Origins of Totalitarianism.

"The Weimar Constitution was never abrogated or replaced. it remained in force until 1949 - throughout the 12 years of the Third Reich.":

http://samvak.tripod.com/factoiduvw.html

"Q. Was the Weimar Constitution ever formally repealed?" "A. No, the Weimar Constitution has never been repealed." -- Nuremberg trials:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-12/tgmwc-12-117-10.shtml

Article 1 of the Weimar Constitution states very clearly 'the German Reich is a republic', which only re-enforces my first point.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Not sure whats being argued here ... Technically everything you say is true - however - most histories (books) would say the Weimar Republic was overthrown in 1933 and replaced by the Third Reich and finalized with the Gleichschaltung policy in 1935 - as outlined in a text book kids have to read in school K. J. Mason; Philip Fielden (2007). 3 (ed.). Republic to Reich: A History of Germany, 1918-1939. McGraw-Hill New Zealand. ISBN 978-0-07-471745-5. {{cite book}}: |editor= has numeric name (help). Have any real books by historians we can link to over the self published websites above that say "the German Reich was a republic" during Hitlers time? Just because it was not abolished formally does not mean it was still in uses.Moxy (talk) 22:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Well; for a start:

i.if the Weimar Constitution is still in force when the Nazis are in power and it says in article 1: "The German Reich is a Republic" then surely that means...it's a republic?

http://www.zum.de/psm/weimar/weimar_vve.php -Here is the text of the Weimar Constitution, pretty easy to find anywhere.

More to the point, 'Weimar Republic' was not the actual name of the state, it is just a term we use to describe Germany during this period. Likewise 'Nazi Germany' and even 'the Third Reich' are just terms used by historians to describe a state that throughout this period from 1918 to 1943 was just called officially 'Deutsches Reich' or in english 'German Reich' (changed for a short while 1943-1945 to 'Grossdeutsches Reich' or 'Greater German Reich'), the constitution stating that it was a republic, in much the same way the actual name of the Republic of Ireland is officially called 'Eire' or 'Ireland', but the 1949 Republic Act describes it as a republic. If historians descibe the weimar republic as being 'overthrown' in 1933, then they don't mean literally, that overnight the constitution was abolished and replaced, the name of the state changed, and the Head of State replaced. The Nazi seizure of power was more gradual than that. The constitution was not abolished, it was just used to further their own ends after the anti-communist hysteria following from the Reichstag fire, President Hindenburg stayed in power until his death, and the name of the state was not changed, nor were any of the other lander nor any of the other key institutions (with some exceptions such as the Landtag and the Lander assemblies) abolished, they just mean that the democratic period (the Weimar Republic) was replaced with a dictatorship (Nazi Germany), though through perfectally legal, constitutional means. Similarly, historians today may speak of 'Soviet Russia' to describe the period 1924-1991 in Russia, even though it was actually called the 'Union of Soviet Socialist Republics'.

ii.The TIME magazine article is not self-published.

iii.Lastly, in what way, shape or form was Nazi Germany not a republic? It did not have a monarch, and indeed during several parts of its history (1933-1934 and towards its end in 1945) it had a president. If Nazi Germany was not a republic, then neither is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea)the Republic of Belarus, the People's Republic of China, or the Republic of Syria today.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 23:22, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Lots of linking many things to get to a single conclusion above. Technically your right however the wording is simply misleading to the average reader and how the period is interpreted now. By 1956 scholarly sources like Max Knight (1952). The German Executive: 1890 - 1933. Stanford University Press. pp. 6–7. ISBN 978-0-8047-3903-0. are saying "The Nazis did not formally abrogate the Weimar Constitution, but they made it obsolete by a number of laws." All that said are there any scholarly sources that implicitly say it was a working republic during Hitler's time in power. The TIME magazine article is from 1936 way early in history for us to draw a conclusion from that - we need to know how historians describe this after reflection and research - not what it technically may be. Searching the terms the republic of Nazi Germany or Third Reich republic gets us NO hits. So i ask why would we use this non conventional term to describe the governing/political style of the period. Moxy (talk) 04:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question; how was Nazi germany not a republic?

The fact it was a totalitarian dictatorship does not mean it was not a republic simultaneously.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 12:08, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

In Jan. 1919 the Weimar Republic was established. It was a constituent assembly. Bruning was appointed Chancellor in 1930. He was forced to resign in 1932. Franz von Papen replaced him. Papen agreed to dissolve the Reichstag and new elections were held that year. In early Dec. Papen is forced to resign and Schleicher was appointed Chancellor. Papen then aligned with Hitler to return to power. Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor in Jan. 1933 (and Papen, Vice-Chancellor). Hitler's appointment as Chancellor, like the others before him, was handed to him. Hitler started on the path of consolidation of power into a dictatorship (which was not completed until 1934). As I said above, the country then transformed from the death-knell of a republic to the totalitarian state under Hitler in 1934. "The Enabling Act" was passed in 1933, giving Hitler dictatorial power over legislation of the country. On 14 July, the "Law against the Establishment of Parties" was passed. By then, the unions were also under Nazi control. Then in Aug. 1934, Hitler merged to offices of the President and the Chancellor. The action was approved by legislation (rubber stamped by the Nazi controlled Reichstag) and an national referendum vote, as well. Further, the armed forces were made to swear their oath to him. Also in 1934, the regional governments were brought under Nazi control by the "Law for the Reconstruction of the Reich". The start date for Hitler and the Nazi Party as far as the beginning of national power in Germany is seen as Jan. 1933 by mainstream historians/authors. That is seen as the start date of "Nazi Germany". The totalitarian dictatorship was complete by Aug. 1934. By then it was no longer a "republic". Kershaw, "Hitler: A Biography", pp. 260-261; McNab, "The Third Reich", pp. 13-14 and "Encyclopedia of the Third Reich", p. 154. Kierzek (talk) 12:27, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Merriman-Webster's dictionary defines 'republic' as: 'a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president' and this is the same definition given in the Oxford English Dictionary, as well as others. The 'Enabling Act' was perfectly legal within the confines of the Weimar Constitution, which itself was never abolished. There was no law passed between January 1933 and August 1934 declaring that Germany had ceased to be a republic, as was specified in the Weimar Constitution, which is why for example Doenitz used the title 'Reichspresident' after Hitler's death, as that was the title of the Weimar Head of State.

Is that a direct quote from the two above sources, or are you just yet again confusing the words 'republic' and 'democracy'? There is nothing stopping a totalitarian dictatorship from also being a republic. North Korea is certainly a totalitarian dictatorship and it is also most definitely a republic.

So again, in what way was Nazi Germany not a republic? The only type of state that is not a republic is a monarchy, and Nazi Germany certainly was not a monarchy.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 12:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

My Compact Oxford English Dictionary defines "Republic" as a state in which power is held by the people and their representatives, which is presided over by a president. They define "Democracy" as a state where people can vote for representatives to govern the state on their behalf. My Webster's New World Collegiate defines "Republic" as a state or nation in which supreme power rests in all the citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives elected by them and responsible to them.

So according to these definitions, the Weimar Republic was both a democracy and a republic. And according to these definitions, Germany was no longer a republic during the Nazi era, as power was held by the Führer and his cronies (not the people and their representatives), and North Korea is not a republic either (though it self-identifies as such). -- Dianna (talk) 14:23, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

As regards North Korea, not quite. The North Korean constitution (http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/061st_issue/98091708.htm) (Article 4) states that:

'The sovereignty of the DPRK resides in the workers, peasants, working intellectuals and all other working people. The working people exercise power through their representative organs -- the Supreme People’s Assembly and local people’s assemblies at all levels.'

-In other words, de jure, (in theory), sovereignty of North Korea resides in the people. Of course, we all know that de facto, supreme power resides in the Kim Jong Un, but he does not hold sovereignty, the people do. (in fact, constitutionally speaking, Kim Jong Un is not even offically the head of state of North Korea, he is just the head of the ruling party and head of the armed forces)

Don't forget that Hitler often used (faked) plebiscites to justify his rule (his did so on assuming the powers of the Presidency in 1934 and on the 1936 Anschluss with Austria), and elections were still held and the Reichstag was still held (regardless of whether it was just a rubber stamp.) so to say the Nazis did not make at least token gestures to what the people wanted is not true. In theory, supreme power still resided in the people because the constitution said i did and furthermore the Reichstag and elections still took place

power was held by the Führer and his cronies -So, the USSR was not a republic, even though its constitution clearly stated it was and the word was part of its official name? Is Syria? Is Belarus? Was the Commonwealth of England not a republic because it was dominated de facto by one man? Was the classical Roman Republic not a republic? Was the Athenian Republic? Were all the various Latin American 'banana republics'? (clues in the name there folks)-were the Dominican Republic in the 1940s and Argentina under Juan Peron not republics because they were ruled by dictators? Nope, because their constitutions still said they were.

The term 'republic' comes from the latin 'res publica', meaning 'common wealth' or 'public concern'; that is, sovereignty at least theoretically resides with the people. If the constitution of a country calls it a republic and declares sovereignty resides with the people, then it's a republic, regardless of what the de facto situation may be. This is in contrast with a monarchy, (derived from the ancient greek 'monos archos' or 'rule by one') where sovereignty resides with one person; that is, the monarch. Again, this is regardless of what the official situation may be. So, somewhere like the United Kingdom for example is in reality much more democratic and free than somewhere like North Korea, even though in theory ultimate power resides with the monarch, and not the people, which is true for other democratic constitutional monarchies like Canada, Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, and many others. So, yes; North Korea is a republic.

Furthermore,

Oxforddictionaries.com defines a republic (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/republic) as:

'a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch'

thefreedictionary.com defines a republic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/republic) as:

A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. dictionary.com defines a republic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic) as

a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.

'Republic' is not simply a synonym for 'democracy'. If that were true, the United Kingdom would be a republic, which it demonstratably is not.

In other words, a republic is any state that does not have a monarch, not 'any state that is a democracy'-republics may be democratic, but they may also be dictatorships, and the same is true of monarchies as well.

By contrast with the present-day United Kingdom, as the Weimar Constitution was still in effect, Nazi Germany was still officially a republic. All the Enabling Act was in theory was extraordinary, emergency legislation designed to protect the state in the event of a national emergency, which is what the Nazis claimed was the case after the Reichstag Fire. It did not in theory replace or abolish the Weimar Constitution, but existed via some of its provisions. Hitler always tried to make at least a show of legality.

Also, if Nazi Germany was not constitutionally a republic, then why, after the death of Hitler, was Doenitz made Reichspresident(an office created under the Weimar Constitution)? The Nazi party was not abolished during this period, and neither was any of the other attributes of the Nazi state.

To wit: North Korea is a republic, but it is also a dictatorship. The United States of America is also a republic, but it is a democracy as well.

The United Kingdom is a monarchy, but it is also a democracy. Saudi Arabia is also a monarchy, but it is a dictatorship. No state with a monarch today is a republic. Any state without a monarch is a republic.

Also, how about the CIA World Factbook? – the definitions of "republic" and "monarchy" used there for listing countries by "government type" are mutually exclusive, in other words: none of the listed "republics" has a king or monarch as head of state, nor is any of the listed monarchies also indicated as "republic". Nazi Germany did not have a monarch and its still-in force constitution declared it to be a republic. Therefore it was technically a republic. What it was not was a democracy.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 15:54, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not saying that the words "democracy" and "republic" are interchangeable; it's obvious that they are not, since nations can be democracies without being republics. The UK and Canada (where I live) are both examples of democracies that are not republics. I think you are incorrect when you say that a country can simultaneously be a republic and a dictatorship. Countries such as the Soviet Union and North Korea may self-identify as republics and even use the word in their names, but that does not mean that they actually are republics. -- Dianna (talk) 16:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

In pre-modern periods, the word 'republic' was often used to mean 'democracy', for example in Machiavelli's 'the Prince'. However, that is not the modern meaning. Countries like North Korea and China and other will explicitly declare in their constitutions that all power derives from the people(As I demonstrated with North Korea's constitution), just the same way as, for example, the Constitution of the United States does. Of course, in practice; it is very different, and human rights and freedom are very different in these countries as they are in western democracies. But that does not change the fact that in theory sovereignty comes from the people and not from a monarch or anyone else. That is why they are republics. It's not as simple as 'their official name is 'republic of _', (to give a good example. the USA is not officially called a republic but it most definitely is) they explicitly mention in their constitutions that sovereignty is vested in the people, and there will be assemblies (however rubber-stamp) that reflect this fact. All this was just as true of .

However, this will not be found in the constitutions of, for example, Australia Tonga, or New Zealand, where power is described as coming from the monarch. Thus, they are not republics for that very reason.

A nation-state is either a republic (whether it be democratic or authoritarian/dictatorship) or a monarchy (whether it be democratic or absolute/dictatorship).JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 17:31, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

It is disappointing to see that User:peterzor is unwilling to come to this talk. That said - No more synthesis of what you think it should be called because of what others may be called - Do you or anyone have a scholarly source that say what you are saying besides one lonely news article from 1936. So to be clear a source that calls Nazi Germany a republic? As for your question to me above - pls read the sources provided that disagree with your interpretation. Moxy (talk) 17:50, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Hang on a tick; what on earth was wrong with 'from a democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship' anyway? The Weimar Republic was indisputably a democracy, the Third Reich was indisputably a totalitarian dictatorship...so why change it to 'from a republic to...'JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 14:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with JWULTRABLIZZARD. Rjensen (talk) 15:15, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Rjensen. At least somebody does.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 16:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I think either wording would be fine; I have no real preference, as both things are true imo. It changed from a republic to a totalitarian state; it changed from a democracy to a totalitarian state. It was Peterzor who objected to the use of the word "democracy", and he hasn't participated in this thread for a while. -- Dianna (talk) 19:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I also believe that either way is sufficient. If consensus is for the word "democracy", then that is fine with me. Kierzek (talk) 20:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely no way anyone can say the Weimar Republic was not a democracy (indeed, the Weimar Constitution was one of the most democratic in the world for its time-it introduced full adult female suffurage a good decade before the UK for example), and there is absolutely no way in hell Nazi Germany can be described as anything other than a totalitarian dictatorship.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 21:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I am gonna change it to say Democracy, as that is the current consensus. -- Dianna (talk)

this is not "current consensus" please read the editors opinion in this section. JWULTRABLIZZARD is the olny user who wants "republic" to be removed while Rjensen seems to agree on a remark without supporting neither and all other users talk about "I think either wording would be fine" (Diannaa), "I also believe that either way is sufficient" (Kierzek) and Moxy who disagrees with nazi germany to be described as a republic so most most users here are against calling Nazi Germany a republic Peterzor (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

There are more who either want the change or have NO objection to the change to democracy. Kierzek (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I am in favour of "democracy" (since it better expresses the contrast between 'rule' by the people and rule by a dictator). --Boson (talk) 16:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Boson. "democracy" conveys important correct info and "republic", while technically correct in a very narrow way (not-a-kingdom), gives no info and falsely suggests "republicanism." Rjensen (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The Core Contest, Peer Review, Good Article nomination

As my entry in WP:The Core Contest, I undertook improvements to this article during the period from 15 April to 12 May. The article was completely re-written, and is almost ready for a GA nomination, which will happen at the end of the month, once some real-life tasks are completed. As part of the Core Contest, a Peer Review was done, which can be found at Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Nazi Germany/archive1. One of the people who responded to the Peer Review noted that the lead was too long and detailed, and a lot of effort was put into trimming it down to its present size. Incorrect and overly-detailed information was removed from the lead by me just now with this edit. Further discussion is welcome -- Dianna (talk) 14:59, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I also have been following the Peer Review in the edits I have made recently to improve the article. The lede is only to be a summary of the main article. Further it is important to keep the byte size of the article down, as well. Therefore, I agree with Dianna's edits herein. Kierzek (talk) 15:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted Peterzor's removal of the phrase "which brought all civilian organisations except the church under party control", as the addition of this explanation was specifically requested in the peer review. Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Nazi Germany/archive1. Please feel free to discuss this edit here on the talk page. Thanks, -- Dianna (talk) 16:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

now i have correted my edit as SPECIFICALLY requested wording at the Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Nazi Germany/archive1 it does not support "which brought all civilian organisatins except the church under party control"THIS wording is the one really requested "he NSDAP used a process termed Gleichschaltung (coordination) to rapidly centralize their power and control over Germany" Peterzor (talk) 18:35, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

It looks to me like you've got it backwards, Peterzor. The previous wording, which you have just re-added, was found to not adequately explain and define the term Gleichschaltung. That's what is needed here, is a definition of the foreign word, not an explanation of what the process of Gleichschaltung was trying to achieve. At least that's the way I am reading Boson's comment. -- Dianna (talk) 19:08, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I think my comment is a bit poorly worded so I am going to add something. What Boson wants to see (in my opinion) is not just a translation of the German word, and not just an explanation of what the end result of the process would be, but rather an explanation of what the process itself entailed. So I changed the wording in the lead from "to rapidly centralize their power and control over Germany" to read "which brought all civilian organisations except the church under party control" and added more explanation of the process to the body of the article. Perhaps if we add the phrase "brought all civilian organisations except the church under party control" to the sentence? the sentence would then read "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a republic into a dictatorship using the process of Gleichschaltung (coordination) to rapidly centralise their power and control over Germany by bringing all civilian organisations except the church under party control." Or here's an even better wording: "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a republic into a dictatorship using the process of Gleichschaltung (coordination). This process brought all civilian organisations except the church under party control and rapidly centralised their power and control over Germany." The source for this information is Evans (2005) page 14 of the paperback edition.-- Dianna (talk) 19:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Dianna, the second one suggested by you above is the one we should use. Kierzek (talk) 21:26, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The Länder were not abolished.

The organisational reforms undertaken from 1934 did not abolish the various lander of Germany, as is claimed in the article.

'Atlas of Nazi Germany', page 44 states:

'The Länder still existed on paper and were used for some government departments such as health care', and rather helpfully gives us a map of the Third Reich in 1942 showing the Länder and Reichsgau.

'Governing Germany' by William E. Patterson and David Southern, edited by Gillian Pale (1991), states on page 144: (note: bold text is mine)

"The Nazis suppressed but did not destroy regional and municipal autonomy. The Reich Reconstruction Law of 30 January 1934 transferred to the Reich all sovereign powers still held by the Länder. All Prussian ministries were merged with their Reich counterparts. Otherwise the state cabinets remained in existence but they became the agents and appointees of the Reich government. Both the state legislatures and elected local authorities were dissolved permanently. A Reich Governor (Reichstadthalter) was appointed to supervise each state government, who in almost all cases was a Gauleiter...All Prussian civil servants were transferred to Reich authorities. All the seventeen states existing in 1933 were retained as administrative units, apart from Lübeck, which was deprived of its Länd status in 1937, reputably because it was the only Länd in which Hitler had never been allowed to speak in the Weimar period. Quite distinct from the federal states, the Nazis established thirty-two party districts (Gaue), each headed by a Gauleiter. The Reichsrat was abolished."

-yes, they lost most of their former autonomy, yes, they were largely replaced by the Gaue, but they were not abolished. The Nazis even bothered to abolish Lubeck as a separate Länd and merge the two Länder of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Mecklenburg-Schwerin. This was why the allies during the occupation could abolish Prussia in 1947 (because it had still existed throughout this period), why they could reorganise the Länder (because they had never been abolished), and why people like Goering could for example still be appointed minister-president of a specific Länder.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:02, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Evans (2005) page 47 says that on 30 January 1934 a new law "abolished all the federated states, from Prussia downwards, along with their governments and parliaments. ... Characteristically, however, some elements of federalism remained, so the process of dissolution was incomplete." Shirer (page 275) says a series of laws passed from 1933 to 1935 "deprived the municipalities of their local autonomy and brought them under dircet control of the Reich Minister of the Interior". The article already says that the process was incomplete, and gives Goering's situation in Prussia as an example. So I am unclear what edit you are proposing. -- Dianna (talk) 00:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

You just contradicted yourself. If Prussia and the other Länder has been abolished, (as Evans puts it) then why:

• did the Greater Hamburg Act (fulll text here: http://www.verfassungen.de/de/hh/hamburg37.htm). transfer territory between the Länder of Prussia, Hamburg and Oldenburg, whilst at the same time disbanding the Länder, if these Länder had been supposedly disbanded four years previously in 1934?

• did the Nazis reorganise the provinces of Prussia, creating new Provinces such as the Province of Kurhessen, the Province of Magdeburg, the Province of Halle-Merseburg and the Province of Nassau as late as 1944 if Prussia had ceased to exist ten years previously?

• were minister-presidents appointed for the each Länder right up to 1945?

• were Reichstadthalter appointed to oversee the governments of each Länder, if these Länder had supposedly been abolished?

• did official Acts and Laws continue to mention them? (Prussia, Oldenburg, Hamburg and Lubeck are all mentioned in the text of the Greater Hamburg Act, http://www.verfassungen.de/de/hh/hamburg37.htm, even though they had all supposedly been abolished.)

• do government publications continue to mention them?

• do official maps continue to show them?

• did the Allied Control Council need to abolish Prussia in 1947 if it had already been abolished in 1934?

• did the maps the allies used to show how Germany was to be occupied after the war, made in 1945, show the Länder? This official US Army map: Source http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/other/us-army_germany_1944-46_map3.htm shows the Allied occupation zones superimposed over the Lander and the Prussian Provinces, all with the adjustments made by the Nazis after 1934-including the merging of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Mecklenburg-Schwerin in 1934 to form the single land of Mecklenburg in 1934, the abolition of Lubeck and other territorial adjustments made in 1937, and the New Prussian Provinces created in 1944.

-Evans is just incorrect in this instance. The Länder were largely reduced to an irrelevance, but they most certainly were not abolished, whereas it states in the article that they were abolished.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 09:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The reason the names continued to be used is because the process was incomplete. "Largely reduced to an irrelevance", sure, but they were officially dissolved. Your demonstrations that the names were still in use and therefore Evans is wrong, is another case of original research on your part. -- Dianna (talk) 13:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Eh? I've provided sources, so how the hell is that original research?!?

Nope, it wasn't merely the names that were kept, the Lander officially still existed.Prussia was not abolished by the Nazis in January 1933, it was abolished by the Allied Control Council Order No. 46. on February 25th, 1947.

See here, cited in 'Germany 1947-1949, a Story In Documents', by the United States Department of State:

http://www.questia.com/read/16323703/germany-1947-1949-the-story-in-documents

Here is the order in full:

"ABOLITION OF THE STATE OF PRUSSIA Control Council Law No. 46 and Excerpt from Report of Military Governor

The Prussian State which from early days has been a bearer of militarism and reaction in Germany has de facto ceased to exist.

Guided by the interests of preservation of peace and security of peoples and with the desire to assure further reconstruction of the political life of Germany on a democratic basis, the Control Council enacts as follows:

Article I The Prussian State together with its central government and all its agencies is abolished.

Article II Territories which were a part of the Prussian State and which are at present under the supreme authority of the Control Council will receive the status of Laender or will be absorbed into Laender.

The provisions of this Article are subject to such revision and other provisions as may be agreed upon by the Allied Control Authority, or as may be laid down in the future Constitution of Germany.

Article III The State and administrative functions as well as the assets and liabilities of the former Prussian State will be transferred to appropriate Laender, subject to such agreements as may be necessary and made by the Allied Control Authority.

Article IV This law becomes effective on the day of its signature.

Done at Berlin on 25 February 1947.

P. KOENIG, Général d'Armée

V. SOKOLOVSKY, Marshal of the Soviet Union

LUCIUS D. CLAY for JOSEPH T. MCNARNEY, General

B. H. ROBERTSON for Sir SHOLTO DOUGLAS Marshal of the Royal Air Force

Control Council Law No. 46, signed on 25 February, liquidates the State of Prussia, its central government, and all its agencies. This law is in the nature of a confirming action; the eleven provinces and administrative districts of prewar Prussia have since the beginning of the occupation been split up among the Soviet, British, and U.S. Zones and Poland."

-Now, how is that possible if Prussia had been abolished in 1934?

As Patterson and Southern showed, the Prussian government and cabinet was not abolished, but it was 'bought in line' with the Reich government.

The standard history of Prussia, 'Iron Kingdom: Rise and Fall of Prussia 1600-1947' by Christopher Clark (2007) (oh look; 1947-funny that, thought it had been abolished in 1934) here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eEOLV_TtNfQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=christopher+clark+prussia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YYubUYvlApHQ4QT_0IGoAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA

agrees with everything that Patterson and Southern said as regards Prussia. It states:

"The Law on the Reorganisation of the Reich of January 1934 placed regional governments and the new imperial commissars under the direct authority of the Reich ministry of the interior. The Prussian ministries were gradually merged with their Reich counterparts (with the exception for technical reasons of finance) and plans were drawn up (though they remained unrealized in 1945) to partition the state into its constituent provinces. Prussia was still an official designation and remained a name on the map."

The Atlas of Nazi Germany, as I stated earlier, shows a map of Greater Germany in 1942, showing the Lander, the Prussian Provinces, and the Reichsgau formed from the conquered territories. It also states that, though the Gau largely had took over the role that the Lander had prior to 1934, they were retained for purposes of (and I quote), health and education. This map is on page 59:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=2I-bUf76KqGN7QbfnoHQDQ&id=0JUnAQAAMAAJ&dq=atlas+of+nazi+germany&q=lander+health it also shows how the Nazis created, the example they give is Thuringia on page 57, showing how the Gau Thuringia (the local party region), the Land Thuringia, and other local agencies, for the Army (Kreis IX), Railways, and others, were given boundaries that deliberately did not match so Hitler could foster competition and dissent in the lower ranks of the Nazi hierachy

http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=2I-bUf76KqGN7QbfnoHQDQ&id=0JUnAQAAMAAJ&dq=atlas+of+nazi+germany&q=the+lander

on page 60 it states in relation to this:

"...more often intensified its structual and jurisdictional chaos, was pluralism in the holding of offices. This found most widespread expression in relation to the Party. The offices of Reich Governor (reichstatthalter) for the lander were largely filled by existing Gauleiter. Thus there was a fusion of personnel authority even if the territorial boundaries of the respective domains did not match."

The Theory and Practice of Modern Government, by Herman Finer (Prager, 1971) states on pages 213-214, in the sections 'Federalism, Germany 1918-39' and 'Nazi Federalism':

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uiYOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA213&dq=mecklenburg+1934+merged&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ZSbUYu_NKO70QWk2oG4BA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mecklenburg%201934%20merged&f=false

"The particularist sentiment even defeated the avowed intention of Hitler's government to resubdivide the Reich into entirely new administrative areas. The nazis talked much, in the early years, for plans for the establishment of economic-physiographic regions in place of the historic dynastic state boundaries, together with some return to ancient tribal regions (Gaue) as parts of the Reich. On November 15, 1934, Dr. Frick, Reich Minister of the Interior , stated that in the near future the Reich would be reorganised into twenty regions (Reichsgau), with three to four million inhabitants each. "These new regions," he declared, "and their governors will be instruments through which the Reich government will impose its authority on the humblest hamlet." These regions "will rest on considerations of an economic and geographic nature dictated by national interests." Earlier, Goebbels had enunciated a plan to set up thirteen tribal provinces, and other nazi leaders had propogated similar ideas. The matter was lost to view; it was probably never anything but romantic talk; military-economic tasks were far more important. Little terriorial reform was actually accomplished. On January 1, 1934, the two states of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz were unified into one state of Mecklenburg, and in 1937 the free city of Lübeck was incorporated into Prussia. Otherwise only minor boundary corrections were made between Bavaria and Wurttemberg and between Prussia and her neighbors, Oldenburg, Hamburg, Mecklenburg, Anhalt, Hesse, and Schaumberg-Lippe; these were made in 1934 and 1935, following a trend already apparent during the last years of the Weimar Republic. Exchanges of territory of somewhat greater importance occured between Prussia on the one hand and Hamburg (1937), Oldenburg (1937), Bremen (1939), Brunswick (1941), and Anhalt (1942) on the other. The opposition to territorial reform came largely from two sources: (1) the Prussian aristocracy objected to any division of Prussia, which any through reform would involve; and (2) many nazi jobholders, headed by Goering as Prussian Premier, feared that their positions would be abolished by territorial change. Prussia was incorporated in the Reich, but not fully. The führer became the governor of Prussia; but on April 11, 1933, he appointed Goering Minister-President and entrusted him with his powers. Goering was responsible, therefore, only to Hitler. By a law of July 20, 1933, the twelve provincial councils were changed from elective legislatures to honorary advisory bodies appointed by the Minister-President. The provincial chief presidents (Oberpraesidenten) were thus given all executive, legislative and administrative power. By the decree of November 27, 1934, they were made nationally appointive and were given increased powers, so that they then occupied a status similar to that of national governors, that is, agents-general of the Reich, while as an inheritance of the older régimes they had detailed local administrative powers beyond those of the governors. Yet they were responsible to both the Reich and Prussia. All Prussian ministries, except the prime ministership and the Ministry of Finances, were amalgamated with the corresponding Reich ministries, so that for many years, Prussian government, laws, and budget, still prevailed. In September, 1944, Prussian finances were also taken over by the Reich "in order to set free additional manpower for the conduct of the war." The status of Prussia in the Third Reich was the reverse of that in the Bismarck constitution. Prussia was intermerged with the Reich: the Reich dominated, but did not abolish, Prussia. Yet the personal relationship between Hermann Goering, the Prime Minister of Prussia, and Hitler, meant that Prussia was still a weighty, leading element in the Reich, with a power of independent leadership."

-So see? Not abolished. JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 16:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

"Another step was taken on 30 January 1934 when, under pressure from the Reich Interior Ministry under the Nazi Wilhelm Frick, a new law abolished all the federated states, from Prussia downwards, along with their governments and parliaments, and merged their ministries into the corresponding Reich Ministries." Evans, Richard J. (2005). The Third Reich in Power. New York: Penguin. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-14-303790-3. The source you are quoting from says essentially the same thing on page 211-212. -- Dianna (talk) 19:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

And yet Finer states: "Prussia was intermerged with the Reich: the Reich dominated, but did not abolish, Prussia" as well as "The particularist sentiment even defeated the avowed intention of Hitler's government to resubdivide the Reich into entirely new administrative areas.".Patterson and Southern state the "state cabinets remained in existence but they became the agents and appointees of the Reich government", and the Allied Control Council Order No. 46 states "The Prussian State together with its central government and all its agencies is abolished. (i.e. both Prussia and its central government continued to exist prior to this date, which indeed they did.)

I get what Evans, and indeed everyone is saying, but it is incorrect to state that the Länder were abolished: they were reduced to an irrelevance by the existence of the Gau (which were by the way only theoretically regional divisions of the Nazi Party), and their governments were headed and controlled by the local Gauleiters (as stated in the above sources), but they were not formally abolished. The Nazis spoke about it in speechs and indeed drew up plans to do so, but it was never carried through. The present day German Länder are direct continuations of these Länder; Bavaria, Saxony, Bremen Hamburg being identical, the others being formed from the remainer which were merged with various Prussian Provinces after Prussia's abolition by the allies. They were not de jure abolished.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 21:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

This map:

-which by the way is the same as the map in 'Atlas of Nazi Germany', shows Prussia (marked in sky blue, the other Lander and the Reichsgau of Greater Germany in 1944. This map:

shows the Nazi Gau, that is (theoretically) the Regional divisions of the NSDAP. Note that the boundaries of Germany itself are the same in both maps (though the first map doesn't show the general-government). Many of the Gauleiters (Head of the Gau) simultaneously held the posts of Minister-President (Head of the civilian government of the Länd of Thuringia) or Reichstadthalter (Representative of the Reich government in each Länder)of their local Länder, or in the case of areas within Prussia, they were appointed Oberprasident (Provincial Governor) or their local Province.

So, for example, Fritz Sauckel was at the same time Gauleiter of the Gau Thuringen-head of the party in Thuringia, whilst at the same time he was Minister-President of the Free State of Thuringia-head of the civilian government in Thuringia, whilst he was also Reichsstatthalter of the Free State of Thuringia, that is, the person responsible for keeping the government of the Free State of Thuringia in line with the wishes and dictates of the Nazi Reich government. This continued right up until 1945, despite the intentions of Frick, Goebbels and others to abolish the Länder.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:12, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

These huge walls of text are problematic for me. Can you instead please give a proposed new wording and list what citations you have that support the change? Please keep in mind that the article is already 2700 words over the recommended 10000-word limit, and thus we can't afford to add a lot more material here. Thanks -- Dianna (talk) 23:36, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Basically, the word 'abolished' is inaccurate, as they were demonstratably not abolished.

Is the following too long?

"A law promulgated 30 January 1934 abolished the autonomy of the existing Länder (constituent states) of Germany and largely replaced them with the new administrative divisions of Nazi Germany, the Gaue, headed by the NSDAP leaders (Gauleiters), who effectively became the governor of their region. Officials known as Reichsstatthalter were appointed to oversee the governments of various Länder, in many instances, this position was given to the local party gauleiter. However, the Länder still existed on paper, and were used for some government departments, such as health and education, and prominent Nazi officials were made minister-presidents of certain Länder. For example, Göring remained the Reichsstatthalter (Reich state governor) and Minister President of Prussia until 1945."

Citations:

• Finer, Hermann. The Theory and Practice of Modern Government,(Prager, 1971), pages 213-214
• Freeman, Michael J. The Atlas of Nazi Germany (1985) pages 57, 59, 60.
• Clark, Christopher. Iron Kingdom: Rise and Fall of Prussia 1600-1947(2007) Last chapter 'merged into Germany'
• Allied Control Council Order No. 46, February, cited in the US Department of State publication 'Germany 1947-1949, the Story In Documents': http://www.questia.com/read/16323703/germany-1947-1949-the-story-in-documents
• Greater Hamburg Act, 1937: http://www.verfassungen.de/de/hh/hamburg37.htm
• Patterson William E. and Southern, David Governing Germany (1991) page 144. (edited by Gillian Pale)

It certainly does not need five citations, since the difference is only 25 words. Essentially you are recommending adding two sentences, one of which states the Lander still existed on paper, which directly contradicts the information in the opening sentence. That won't pass a GA nomination. So I propose this instead:

"A law promulgated 30 January 1934 abolished the autonomy of the existing Länder (constituent states) of Germany and largely replaced them with the new administrative divisions of Nazi Germany, the Gaue, headed by the NSDAP leaders (Gauleiters), who effectively became the governor of their region. Reichsstatthalters (imperial deputies) were also appointed to oversee the government of each region. In many instances this position was given to the local party Gauleiter. The change was never fully implemented, as the Länder were still used as administrative divisions for some government departments such as health and education."

We need a citation to cover the new information that there were Reichsstatthalters appointed as overseers, and a citation to cover the new information that some ministries continued to use Länder for administrative purposes. The revised edit doesn't add any words to the article, as I omitted the part about Goering. -- Dianna (talk) 01:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay Diannaa, that's fine,

as regards the ministries that continued to be divided by Lander, the Atlas of Nazi Germany on page 6:

"Then there were still the remnants of the Länder which, although emasculated of separate political power in the Gleichschaltung of spring 1933, remained as bases for the administration of education and other social services", which is also mentioned on page 59. See here for page 6:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=FyqcUYaLHcSu4ATI_YDACg&id=0JUnAQAAMAAJ&dq=atlas+of+nazi+germany&q=lander+education

-I'm not sure if 'imperial deputy' really is an accurate translation of 'Reichsstatthalter' however. (as 'Imperial' implies that an Emperor is involved, just as 'Royal' suggests a King or Queen) 'Reich' has no real translation in English, and 'statthalter' etymologically is equivalent to the 'Stadtholder' position held by the House of Orange in the pre-1795 Dutch Republic. Perhaps 'Reich governor' would be more accurate?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 02:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Nazi Germany never annexed any part of Denmark.

At the bottom of the info box, it states that part of Nazi Germany is now part if modern-day Denmark, but no part of Denmark was ever annexed by Germany at any point in the war, even during the occupation from 1940-1945, despite Denmark having taken away the northern part of Schleswig-Holstein after World War One. Thus, this is inaccurate.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

On 29 August 1943, the German military effectively replaced the Danish government with a military government: the imposition of martial law. Page 232 of "The 'Final Solution' and the war in 1943', a chapter within Germany, Hitler, and World War II: Essays in Modern German and World History. Binksternet (talk) 22:27, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Correct, but they didn't annex a single square foot of itinto the Reich though. JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:39, 17 May 2013 (UTC) In other words, occupying a territory is not the same as annexing it-the USA for example militarily occupied Iraq in 2003 but that did not mean that the USA annexed Iraq.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I presume you are commenting on the presence of Denmark in the info box? I removed all those flags on the recommendation of Brian Boulton in the Peer Review, but people just keep adding them back. By the way the flag is currently not in the info box; someone took it out. -- Dianna (talk) 23:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Dianna, go ahead and take the flags out per the peer review. That should free up some bytes, as well. Kierzek (talk) 00:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I will try, -- Dianna (talk) 00:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes I am, Dianna. At one point the article included in that part all the countries occupied by German forces, such as France, regardless of whether they were actually annexed as part of Germany or they were just occupied by Germany. Denmark for some reason somehow crept back in.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 00:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

It's the same with the photos. At one point there were more images of Russia and Poland than there were of Germany, quelle merde. -- Dianna (talk) 01:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Flight and expulsion of Germans

The movement of Germans involved a total of at least 12 million people, with some sources putting the figure at 14 million.--IIIraute (talk) 15:42, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Since, "Forgotten Voices: The Expulsion of the Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II", preface, xii. → fourteen million expelled, 2 million dead , is just "SPAM" - here, some other sources:

• "In all 14 million ethnic Germans were expelled and it has been asserted that as many as two million might have perished in the process." David P. Forsythe, Encyclopedia of human rights - Volume 1, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2009, page 164,

• "In all, 12 to 14 million ethnic Germans fled or were expelled or transferred." Donald Bloxham, A. Dirk Moses, The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2010

• "Altogether, the expulsion operation permanently displaced at least 12 million people, and perhaps as many as 14 million." R. M. Douglas, Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War, Yale University Press, Yale, 2012, page 1

I will provide some information & sources regarding the German government reaffirming the 2,2 million casualties figure at a later date. --IIIraute (talk) 01:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The German government puts the number at 12 million by 1950. The higher numbers include people who emmigrated after 1950 and children born after the war.

Flight,Expulsion and Accounting for Expellees up to 1950

Source:Hans Henning Hahn and Eva Hahnova, Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte, Paderborn: Schöningh, 2010, Page 659

Expellees as defined by German Law

Source: Gerhard Reichling, Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen, part 1, Bonn: 1995, pp. 44–59

I get the impression you are trying to push the higher figure of 14 million without showing the details--Woogie10w (talk) 01:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Do I need to show the details? I have presented three WP:RS by the current state of scientific/historiographic knowledge, published by the Universties of Yale and Oxford, within the last three years. Why not let experts with professional competence take care of the details. --IIIraute (talk) 02:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I consider this material very important but it relates primarily to the post-Nazi era, where it had a major impact. It belong in another article. Rjensen (talk) 03:22, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

It does not. The article currently states: "By 1950 over eleven million ethnic Germans fled or were expelled from east-central Europe to Germany."--IIIraute (talk) 03:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

(P.S. Very cheap shot. If necessary, I will take this to WikiProject History/WikiProject Germany.)--IIIraute (talk) 03:38, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We should change the wording to read "By 1950 between eleven and fourteen million ethnic Germans fled or were expelled from east-central Europe to Germany." and quote one of the above sources. I am working on putting this in right now, using the Douglas citation, as it is a recent book, and I can look at it on Google preview. -- Dianna (talk) 03:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in getting to this matter, IIIraute. I have been working on another article today. -- Dianna (talk) 03:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Casualties

The section on casualties needs to be improved. For starters, R. J. Rummel's estimates are not generally accepted by historians, we need to cite others besides Rummel. Timothy Snyder put the victims of the Nazis killed only as result of deliberate policies of mass murder such as executions, deliberate famine and in death camps at 10.4 million persons including 5.4 million Jews. The German scholar Hellmuth Auerbach puts the death toll in the Hitler era at 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust and 7 million other victims of the Nazis.Dieter Pohl puts the total number of victims of the Nazi era at between 12 and 14 million persons, including 5.6–5.7 million Jews. According to the College of Education of the University of South Florida Approximately 11 million people were killed because of Nazi genocidal policy--Woogie10w (talk) 16:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

We went through all this for the Hitler article, all that needs to be done is copy edit it over with cites. Kierzek (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Woogie10w. There's extensive discussion on this topic at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 66#Adolf Hitler. Note that Snyder's figures only include the killings that took place within the geographic area covered by his book, Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. -- Dianna (talk) 17:40, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

BTW Snyder cites Dieter Pohl for many of his figures. Pohl's book Verfolgung und Massenmord in der NS-Zeit 1933–1945,is a concise guide to the crimes of the Hitler period. I hope it is translated into English. The younger generation of historians in Germany has confronted the issue of the Nazi crimes, 40 years ago it was a taboo subject for too many Germans--Woogie10w (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

In any case Diannaa, the casualty section needs a cleanup ASAP

Re casualties Article reads- and millions of German civilians The sources cited here do not support this statement and should be removed:

German Armed Forces Military History Research Office (1979–2008). Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Bd. 9/1. Beiträge zur Militär- und Kriegsgeschichte (in German). Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt. ISBN 3-421-06236-6. "Gesetz über das Staatsoberhaupt des Deutschen Reichs. § 1" (in German). documentArchiv.de. 1 August 1934.

This source deals with a 1934 law on the head of state not casualties.

Spieler, Silke, ed. (1989). Vertreibung und Vertreibungsverbrechen, 1945–1948 :

Covers only expulsions and puts total losses at 600,00--Woogie10w (talk) 17:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I have something different. That's your document → . However, the cited source, page 460! is "Band 9/1: Ralf Blank u.a.: Die deutsche Kriegsgesellschaft 1939 bis 1945 – Erster Halbband: Politisierung, Vernichtung, Überleben, Im Auftrag des MGFA hrsg. von Jörg Echternkamp, Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, Stuttgart 2004, XIV, 993 S. ISBN 978-3-421-06236-9", page 460.--IIIraute (talk) 00:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, someone added this in the last 24 hr and I assumed it was OK. I will revert to the previous version right now. -- Dianna (talk) 17:52, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I find it rather irritating to see that an article about Germany (1939-1945) that is up for GA review does not include any German casualties (military and civilian). Woogie10w, you know the numbers published by the German government.--IIIraute (talk) 18:19, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Flight and expulsion of Germans: In 2006 the German government reaffirmed its belief that 2,2 million civilians perished. They maintain that the figure is correct because it includes additional post war deaths from malnutrition and disease of those civilians subject to the expulsions. --IIIraute (talk) 18:41, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute that statement of 2.0 million by Bergner is pure politics for a German audience: The German government does not want to reopen the issue and investigate the number of deaths. Bergner: Also ich habe die damit befassten Referate konsultiert und die Antwort, die ich erhalten habe, gibt jedenfalls für mich keinen Anlass, jetzt, im viel größeren zeitlichen Abstand, hier noch einmal Ermittlungen und zusätzliche Erhebungen zu beginnen. Aber ich bin sehr dafür, dass wir den Prozess der Aussöhnung mit Polen fortsetzen und ernst nehmen. --Woogie10w (talk) 18:54, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Questioned on whether the government figures are accurate: "I have consulted the relevant departments, and the answer I did receive, does not give occasion - now, or in the near future - to reopen further investigations and inquiries." But that's quite a clear statement, or not? --IIIraute (talk) 22:21, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

R. J. Rummel makes this article look real foolish, the man is generally accepted as an authority on casualties. Outside of Misplaced Pages one finds few places that cite Rummel. If you add all of his figures over 75 million people were killed in Europe in WW2 1939-45. The war itself 29 million, famine 7.0 million, Stalin 18 million and Hitler 21 million.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Suggestions on how to word this and what sources should be used are welcome. These figures by Auerbach and Pohl look useful. Could you please provide citation details on these sources? -- Dianna (talk) 18:20, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Give me a few minuets to do a quick and dirty piece for you guys to review.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Awesome, we can probably update several articles with improved figures and citations. Thanks so much. -- Dianna (talk) 18:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The military casualties of Nazi Germany included men conscripted in Germany within 1937 borders, Austria and the ethnic Germans of east-central Europe. A recent study by the German historian de:Rüdiger Overmans put military dead and missing at 5.3 million. According to the German government civilian deaths due to allied strategic bombing were 410,000 in Germany within 1937 borders and 24,000 in Austria. Civilian deaths also include 300,000 Germans (including Jews) who were victims of Nazi political, racial and religious persecution and that 200,000 were murdered in the Nazi euthanasia program. Civilian deaths due to the Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) and the Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union are sometimes included with World War II casualties, during the Cold War the West German government estimated the death toll at 2.2 million. This figure was to remain unchallenged until the 1990s when some German historians put the actual death toll in the expulsions at 500,000 confirmed deaths. The German Red Cross still maintains that death toll in the expulsions is 2.2 million.

I have the sources to back up these figures--Woogie10w (talk) 18:54, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you post the sources here on the talk page so I can help you format them? We are using Harvard citations with sfn templates, which not everyone has seen before. Your paragraph can be used to replace the first paragraph of "casualties", and it's actually better, because it's Germany-specific. I have copy-edited your paragraph and removed some material about deaths in the Soviet Union, which while interesting, is not really relevant to this article. Here's what I have got so far (spots are marked where cites are needed):

Proposed Draft--Woogie10w (talk) 22:18, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

World War II was responsible for more than 40 million dead in Europe.. Most estimates of the victims of the Nazi regime, including 6 million Jews in the Holocaust, range between 11 and 14 million persons However according to political scientist Rudolph Rummel, the Nazi regime was responsible for the democidal killing of an estimated 20.9 million civilians and prisoners of war. In addition to the victims of the Nazi regime, 29 million soldiers and civilians died as a result of military action in the European theatre of World War II.

Estimates for total German war dead, within 1937 borders, range from 5.5 to 6.9 million persons. A study by the German historian Rüdiger Overmans puts German military dead and missing at 5.3 million, including 900,000 men conscripted from outside of Germany's 1937 borders, in Austria, and in east-central Europe. According to the German government, civilian deaths due to allied strategic bombing were 410,000 and 20,000 in the land campaign Other civilian deaths include 300,000 Germans (including Jews) who were victims of Nazi political, racial, and religious persecution and 200,000 who were murdered in the Nazi euthanasia program. Political courts called Sondergerichte sentenced some 12,000 members of the German resistance to death, and civil courts sentenced an additional 40,000 Germans.

By 1950 over eleven million ethnic Germans fled or were expelled from east-central Europe to Germany. During the Cold War, the West German government estimated a death toll of 2.2 million civilians due to the flight and expulsion of Germans and through forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union.Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page). This figure remained unchallenged until the 1990s, when some German historians revised the death toll to 500,000 confirmed deaths.The German Red Cross still maintains that the death toll in the expulsions is 2.2 million.Mass rapes of German women also took place.

At the end of the war, Europe had more than 40 million refugees, its economy had collapsed, and 70 per cent of its industrial infrastructure was destroyed.

-- Dianna (talk) 19:30, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Must I put source in bibliography before I use this cite ref system? I really should know this after seven yrs of editing on Misplaced Pages, sorry --Woogie10w (talk) 20:25, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The movement of Germans involved a total of at least 12 million people, with some sources putting the figure at 14 million. What about the 1945 military land campaign (non-strategic bombing) civilian- and 22,000 Battle for Berlin casualties?--IIIraute (talk) 22:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

We should not get hung up on petty details in this short section on casualties. This is only a summary. The article German casualties in World War II covers all these fine points. I hope this excercise does not turn into a laundry list of war dead and a place to plug the number of victims of each and every ethnic group.--Woogie10w (talk) 22:40, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Petty details?? All civilian deaths during the 1945 land campaign and the Battle of Berlin, are "petty details"? The topic of this article is "Germany". Also, this needs a change: "The German Red Cross still maintains that the death toll in the expulsions is 2.2 million." - so does the German government.--IIIraute (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

@IIIraute: We can add that too, if you have got sources. I think Woogie is right when he says the article needs to stay focused on German casualties, not for the whole European theatre or the whole war. @Woogie, I will put some general instructions for using the {{sfn}} templates on your talk page. The system is fairly new, but it's ideal for articles that are sourced mostly to books and journal articles. -- Dianna (talk) 23:47, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I am talking about German civilian casualties during the 1945 Allied land campaign, and the Battle of Berlin. They are not included yet.--IIIraute (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

What you need to do is present some sourced content, and then we can try to work it into the revised section. Word count is a problem on articles like this one. Misplaced Pages guidelines for size call for articles to be no more than 10,000 words maximum, and as of this moment we are sitting at 12,625 words. Misplaced Pages:Article size. People on slow connections or trying to view the page on their cell phone or other mobile device are likely having trouble loading the page. That's why we have to be choosy about what we include, and how much detail we go into. If you have sources that give total German civilian deaths from all causes, that would be ideal, as so far I have not found any such summaries. -- Dianna (talk) 00:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Dianna I agree but I have no doubt that in the future ethnic warriors will show up and plug in inflated figures for their country--Woogie10w (talk) 01:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

On the 12-14 million "Flight and expulsion of Germans: Forgotten Voices: The Expulsion of the Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II, preface, xii. → fourteen million expelled, 2 million dead.

For the 2,25 million Red Cross and government figure sources are available here Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)#Casualties and this 2006 government reaffirmation, for example.--IIIraute (talk) 00:32, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Re Forgotten Voices: The Expulsion of the Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II, I remember it being deleted as spam, in any case there were 11.9 million expellees in 1950, including 300,000 born 1946-50.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

please support your claim.--IIIraute (talk) 01:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

22,000 Battle of Berlin civilian casualties: Antill, Peter (2006), Berlin 1945, Osprey, page 85. ISBN 978-1-84176-915-8 --IIIraute (talk) 00:38, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Civilians Killed in 1945 Land Battles: 20,000 → German casualties in World War II#Total Population Losses 1939-1946--IIIraute (talk) 00:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but you can't use Misplaced Pages itself for a source. External sources will have to be found: Books, journal articles, reliable newspapers, etc. I will look at your other sources later, Illraute. I am moving a copy of the draft to my sandbox to work on the citations. -- Dianna (talk) 01:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not - the sources are right there at the article → Sources for figures: Wirtschaft und Statistik October 1956, Journal published by Statistisches Bundesamt Deutschland. (German government Statistical Office).--IIIraute (talk) 01:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Have you personally looked at the source? We cannot add it unless the source has been checked out. -- Dianna (talk) 02:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

"Durch Endkämpfe umgekommene Zivilpersonen": 20,000"Source: Wirtschaft und Statistik October 1956, pp. 493-500, as well as → --IIIraute (talk) 02:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Air Raids: Why only within 1937 borders - dead German civilians within the 1943 borders are still German casualties → --IIIraute (talk) 03:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Expulsion of Germans, ca. 2,2 million --IIIraute (talk) 03:05, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Civilian populatian losses --IIIraute (talk) 03:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute I suggest that we use the Statistisches Bundesamt figures.--Woogie10w (talk) 00:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute that Red Cross figure of 2.252 million stands alone without any support. You are told by the government it is true and you must accept it on faith. If you disagree, well they will tell you where to go. Rüdiger Overmans maintains that their are 872,051 cases with no information provided are “Karteileichen”( “card corpses)of persons who could not be traced because insufficient information was provided and therefore of doubtful validity. He considers this to be the most important consideration in the analysis of expulsion losses--Woogie10w (talk) 01:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

(ec):But you also mention other sources. Please also add the 2006 German government reaffirmation to the "Red Cross" sentence. That's what Bergner said → Questioned on whether the government figures are accurate: "I have consulted the relevant departments, and the answer I did receive, does not give occasion - now, or in the near future - to reopen further investigations and inquiries."--IIIraute (talk) 01:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Schieder commission, Red Cross, German 1958 report; reaffirmed in 2006.--IIIraute (talk) 01:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Expellees as defined by German Law

Source: Gerhard Reichling, Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen, part 1, Bonn: 1995, pp. 44–59

--Woogie10w (talk) 01:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The Merten number includes people like Erika Steinbach who were resettled in Poland during the war and children born in post war Germany. Merten's figure is inflated propaganda. --Woogie10w (talk) 01:25, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

But they had still settled and were moved. On the casualties: Schieder commission, Red Cross, German 1958 report; reaffirmed in 2006. The government maintains that the figure is correct because it includes additional post war deaths from malnutrition and disease of those civilians subject to the expulsions --IIIraute (talk) 01:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

You wrote But they had still settled and were moved Go tell that to the 1.0 million Polish people who were evicted by Hitlers goons back in 1940 to amke room for the resettlers--Woogie10w (talk) 02:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

what has this to do with the fact that they had settled and were moved?--IIIraute (talk) 02:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The resettlers were what we in America call Carpetbaggers, the Poles sent them back to Germany where they came from, they were not expelled from their 800 year old house because it was Polish house in the first place--Woogie10w (talk) 02:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Many of the children were born there; ergo, they were expelled from their place of birth - I also find your "death certificate" (Karteileichen) confirmed deaths argumentation rather distasteful. Just imagine! you'd do the same for Soviet POWs and Polish or Jewish casualties. The source does explain very well on what the numbers are based (including people whose fate is unknown/went missing and their death never got confirmed). They have still perished!--IIIraute (talk) 20:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

In any case we need to see the details of the figures of the Search Service, and understand what they mean.

There were 473,013 confirmed deaths and 1,905,991 Unsolved Cases -Details of the 1,905,991 Unsolved Cases - Deported 68,416; Interned 17,704; Missing 768,010; Deaths 179,810; No Information provided(ohne jeden Hinweis) 872,051. Rüdiger Overmans maintains that the 872,051 cases with no information provided are “Karteileichen”( “card corpses)of persons who could not be traced because insufficient information was provided and therefore of doubtful validity. He considers this to be the most important consideration in the analysis of the 1.9 million unsolved cases

You wrote-I also find your "death certificate" (Karteileichen) confirmed deaths argumentation rather distasteful. Overmans used the term Karteileichen not I.

Also re the resettlers in Poland the Statistisches Bundesamt did not include them in the 1958 study, they are not inincluded in the figures released by Bonn. --Woogie10w (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

@ Woogie10w: I am ready to add what we have got prepared so far, but I need page numbers for the second citation to Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste, 1939/50, where it says there were death toll of 2.2 million civilians due to the flight and expulsion of Germans and through forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union. Also, page numbers for Haar 2009 and Kammerer and Kammerer 2005 please. Thank you. -- Dianna (talk) 02:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I have hard copies of these sources, I can send PDF files via E mail if needed for verification:

Re Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste, 1939/50, Pages 38 and 46

Re Haar 2009 Pages 363 to 381- On page 378 Harr writes " "Die zahl der konkert bezeugten Opfer belauft sich jedoch nicht mehr als auf 0.5 bis 0.6 Mio Personnen ingesamt"--Woogie10w (talk) 02:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Re Kammerer and Kammerer page 12--Woogie10w (talk) 02:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

On Misplaced Pages I try bore down to get the details of a number posted so readers can judge for themselves. Some authors and politicians become ethnic warriors and take the high number or the low number in order to push a POV--Woogie10w (talk) 02:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not want to ascribe bias to anyone - however I would like to have an answer on why a "Germany (1933-1945)" article on GA-review, did not have "any" figures on German casualties in the casualties section. I will provide more sources.--IIIraute (talk) 02:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Illraute, I spent four to five hours a day, every day from April 15 to May 12, doing a complete re-write of this article as my entry for WP:The Core Contest. The reason the article did not have these statistics is because the sources I used to do the re-write did not contain them, so sorry. I did as much as I could possibly do in the time available using the sources I have available locally (Alberta, Canada). Obviously any article on this wiki can and should be improved when additional sources can be found. Note that though it likely will be nominated for GA at the end of the month, the article is not presently on GA review. -- Dianna (talk) 03:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Dianna, What about the 1st paragraph with the 40 million?--Woogie10w (talk) 02:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Do we really need it? We don't want the article to be about WWII in general, and that info is available elsewhere. -- Dianna (talk) 02:59, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

We have to be concerned about length, and Nick-D remarked in the Peer Review that the article needs to focus on Nazi Germany, its people, and its economy etc. So I am inclined to leave it out. -- Dianna (talk) 03:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Good work Dianna--Woogie10w (talk) 03:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I am logging off now, ttyl. -- Dianna (talk) 03:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Gleichschaltung

why did someone remove my new improved compromise Peterzor (talk) 15:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Because it is conveying in better grammar, the same information. Kierzek (talk) 16:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

if you consider it to be the same thing why do you bother then? and it is better grammar "rapidly centralised their power and control over Germany and all organisations except the church" what EXACTLY is wrong with grammar there? Peterzor (talk) 17:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The phrase at the end, "and all organisations except the church", just kind of dangles there without a verb. It's not grammatically correct English. I suspect that English is not your first language, Peterzor, so you might have to take my word for it that it's grammatically incorrect. I am posting another wording. -- Dianna (talk) 21:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Other groups persecuted and killed included Jehovah's Witnesses, Poles and other Slavs, homosexuals, social misfits, and members of the political and religious opposition

The list needs to be rewritten according to some logic - numbers of dead victims, numbers of imprisoned. 1200 Jehovah's Witnesses and millions of Slavs died. Xx236 (talk) 06:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you have not yet read the peer review, where one reviewer specifically requested that this article contain less about events of World War II and focus instead on the impact of the war on the German population and economy. Information about victims of the regime is summarised without giving a lot of statistics that are readily available in other articles and need not be repeated here. -- Dianna (talk) 19:36, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

In another words - German POV is more important than the one of the victims. Now I understand the article and I'm going to change it according to Misplaced Pages rules. Xx236 (talk) 06:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

28 million of non-German refugees

Europe had more than 40 million refugees, which means that 26-28 million were non-German, in another words 33% German and 66% - non-German. Xx236 (talk) 07:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

We don't really have space in this article for this peripheral information. -- Dianna (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The information about German refugees is more peripheral (33%) than about non-German ones (66%).Xx236 (talk) 06:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Poland and France

The subsecion "Poland" doesn't inform about Polish-French relations. GB didn't have any common border with Germany and any army.Xx236 (talk) 06:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Content about Polish-French relations is beyond the scope of this article, which needs to have a tight focus on Nazi Germany and its citizens, economy and culture. Misplaced Pages:Article size calls for Misplaced Pages articles to be no more than 10,000 words, so that people on slow internet conections and those tryng to access the article using their cell phone or other mobile device will be able to load and view the article. This article is presently at around 12,700 words, so we don't have space for additional peripheral material. -- Dianna (talk) 19:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

If we don't have place, why do we mention here GB?Xx236 (talk) 06:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

German administration was established in Poland - unprecize

There was no unified G. administration of occupied Poland. Parts of Poland were annexed to different parts of Germany and GG was created. Xx236 (talk) 07:18, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

This is more detail than we need in this article, which is about Nazi Germany, not Poland. France was also split into occupied and unoccupied zones, and we don't have space to talk about that either. -- Dianna (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

"We" ?

Nazi Germany committed genocides outside Germany so the subject of Nazi administration in the East belongs here.

Germany didn't committ any genocide in France, so yes, we don't have space to talk about France here.Xx236 (talk) 06:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

All organizations "except the church"

Protestant Reich Church was pro-Nazi, wasn't it?Xx236 (talk) 12:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The Nazis were unsuccessful in their attempts to form a single unified Nazi church. They made efforts to disband or nazify the 28 existing Protestant churches and created the Protestant Reich Church. Opposition groups and a rival church called the Confessing Church were formed by 1934. The Confessing Church became very popular, especially in rural areas, and Hitler was worried that the move to disband the churches would lose him too much support, so he decided to abandon the amalgamation plan. The Catholic churches were not disbanded at all, but they were not allowed to operate any lay organisations or publish a newspaper. Religion in the Reich is covered in Evans, Richard J. (2005). The Third Reich in Power. New York: Penguin. pp. 220–272. ISBN 978-0-14-303790-3. and Shirer, William L. (1960). The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York: Simon & Schuster. pp. 234–240. ISBN 978-0-671-62420-0. -- Dianna (talk) 14:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

new grammatically correct revision

new grammatically correct revision; i corrected my mistake, see discuss here on this talkpage before reverting Peterzor (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a pretty good edit in my opinion, as it conveys essentially the same information using fewer words. The grammar has no errors. -- Dianna (talk) 18:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Two POVs

• This article describes Nazi Germany as seen by the Germans. What about the POV of the victims?
• The subject of German borders and occupied lands is poorly described, eg. the General Government isn't mentioned in Occupied territories section but only in the Holocaust one.
• Germany was fed and finnaced by the occupied nations. This article mentions only "forced labour". The Holocaust section is about the extermination but not about robbery.

Götz Aly: Hitlers Volksstaat. Raub, Rassenkrieg und nationaler Sozialismus. 5. Auflage, S. Fischer, Frankfurt am Main 2005, ISBN 3-10-000420-5. Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Snyder about Evans' POV:

"Germany ... was a complex society, defined by Christian morality, in which the majority was opposed to the persecution of Jews."

Now I understand better this article. What about reading a second book?Xx236 (talk) 07:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I have added some material on the General Government to the "Occupied territories" section. Thank you for the suggestion. Your multiple posts in various threads all have a common theme: you believe that this article needs to have more information on the Slavic victims of the regime. Sorry, I do not agree with you. This does not mean that I am pushing a pro-German POV or any other POV. Nor does it mean that I have only read one book on this topic. The reason the article doesn't contain extensive material about Slavs is because it is not about Slavs. There's quite a bit about the Nazi treatment of the Jews, but it for the most part focuses on events in Germany, and the fate of the Jewish population of Germany. It's more appropriate to add material about victims of the regime to articles such as Generalplan Ost, Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles, or The Holocaust in Russia, so that this article can focus its attention on the impact of the regime on the German people, economy, and culture, as recommended in the Peer Review. -- Dianna (talk) 20:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Motto ?

What is your source that "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führe" was a Motto? Xx236 (talk) 08:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

It was a rallying cry and political slogan more than a motto. I will remove it from the info box. -- Dianna (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

What makes for a national motto? I think this one does qualify. Bendersky (2007) says: "The slogan "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" left an indelible mark on the minds of most Germans who lived through the Nazi years. It appeared on countless posters and in publications; it was heard constantly in radio broadcasts and speeches." See his insightful discussion of its central role in shaping popular thought at Joseph W. Bendersky (2007). A Concise History of Nazi Germany: 1919-1945. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 105.. Rjensen (talk) 17:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Horst Wessel Lied

The Horst Wessel Lied drags this article into the gutter, the song is at the top of the hit list for neo-Nazis. In Germany it is banned. Get rid of this eyesore.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I see it was removed, it is amazing that it got pluged on the page in the first place. I must assume that editors acted in good faith and were not aware of the fact that it is offensive to victims of the Nazis.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yah, I took it out before I went to work. It was added to the article a few weeks ago and I did not realise at the time that it should come out. Sorry, -- Dianna (talk) 19:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

No need to feel sorry, we all work together as a team on Misplaced Pages--Woogie10w (talk) 01:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The fact that some might find Horst-Wessel-Lied "offensive" is not sufficient grounds for removing the Deutschlandlied and Horst-Wessel-Lied OGG files. The fact that the piece is illegal in Germany is also of no relevance, given that we're discussing the English article. It is offensive to some - yes - but it is in no way obscene, graphic or in breach of Misplaced Pages's rules. A /ton/ of content on Misplaced Pages will prove offensive to certain groups. This is supposed to be an objective article; Horst-Wessel-Lied was at the centre of Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are plenty who find "The Internationale" OGG file on the Soviet Union article "offensive", too. If you disagree with me, then fine - but you'd surely disagree with the presence of "The Internationale" at the same time - given that it too would prove offensive to, say, the victims of Stalinism? Surlyduff50 (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Removal of the sound files of the Horst-Wessel-Lied and the Lied der Deutschen

Even if policy permits us to include a song here, that does not mean that we are obliged to do so. We should not conflate the issue of editorial judgement with what policy requires. There is a reason for the prohibition applying to the distribution of the Horst-Wessel-Lied, and there is nothing to stop us, as responsible editors, sharing the views of the German and Austrian legislatures on the inappropriateness of its publication without accompanying commentary. In my view, it is sufficient to provide a link to the article on the song, where such detailled commentary is possible; the few people reading this article who need to know more about the Horst-Wessel-Lied can click on the link. So I

• support removal of the sound files.--Boson (talk) 16:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course there's nothing to stop us sharing the views of German and Austrian legislators on the publication of Horst-Wessel-Lied; there's also nothing to stop us from disregarding non-ubiquitous laws that have no place in countries without a history of Nazism or Nazi occupation. It is true that Horst-Wessel-Lied will be a "top hit" for neo-Nazis, but I fail to see how this is of any relevance here. It's an historical piece of music - it's not something that portrays the Third Reich in an overly or unnecessarily positive light (except in the eyes of a German-fluent neo-Nazi) - and, dare I say it - it's less offensive than some of the photographs on this article. I myself find the photo of starving prisoners 'offensive' - but it's history, and it shouldn't be watered down for anyone. I agree with what Boson has said in that it's likely that only a small number of people will have any interest in Horst-Wessel-Lied, and I agree that a link to the song on the article for Horst-Wessel-Lied would be equally appropriate, but I stand against deletion of the OGG partly out of principle (let's not water down history), and partly because the argument for removal just isn't strong enough; articles on countries (and 'periods' within countries - even the evil ones) have sound files in their infoboxes. Surlyduff50 (talk) 17:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

let's remove or drastically alter the paragraph "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a democracy into a dictatorship"

Under Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a democracy into a dictatorship THAT IS A LIE !!! now how is that even theoretically possible? when germany already was a De facto authoritarian state ruled by emergency decree under president of the weimar republic Paul von Hindenburg so hitler did not turn germany to a dicatorship, germany was already a dictatorship! Peterzor (talk) 17:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

no it's not a lie. that what the RS say. perhaps the most famous expert on democracy is Robert Dahl--he says the transition to dictatorship was 1933 in Robert A. Dahl (1986). A Preface to Economic Democracy. U of California Press. p. 38.. Bracher is his german counterpart--see Karl Dietrich Bracher (1995). Turning Points in Modern Times: essays on German and European history. Harvard University Press. pp. 108–9.. Also of value see Stephen J. Lee (2003). Europe: 1890 - 1945. Routledge Chapman & Hall. p. 248. Rjensen (talk) 17:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Peterzor could we get you to propose the changes here first - lots of reverting going on with you reverting yourself and people reverting aand or correcting your edits. Would be easier if we just agreed on a text here on this talk instead of editwaring.Moxy (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

So? it still does not change the fact that germany wasn't a democracy! yes there was a transformation in 1933-1933 but the country was alredy run by emergency decree Peterzor (talk) 17:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Please see the section immediately below, where and editor has proposed completely removing this sentence from the lead. -- Dianna (talk) 19:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

my rhetorical question retorical question "So?" refers to my answer to Rjensen not moxy Peterzor (talk) 06:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite of first paragraph

The first paragraph is getting to look a bit like a camel (a horse designed by a committee). I propose rewriting it as follows:

Nazi Germany and Third Reich are common names for Germany during the period from 1933 to 1945, when its government was controlled by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party or, in German, NSDAP. Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed into a totalitarian state where nearly all public life was controlled by the Nazis. Nazi Germany ceased to exist after the Allied Forces defeated the Wehrmacht in May 1945, thus ending World War II in Europe.

The changes are intended to address the following issues:

• Avoid unnecessary controversy over "republic", "democracy", etc.
• Lede could do with condensing a little.
• Details do not belong in the introduction.
• Difficulty of stating exactly which organizations were not controlled by the Nazi Party - best left to body of article, where more details are possible.
• Exact year it became a totalitarian state is a detail not needed in the introduction.
• Nazi Germany and Third Reich are both common names (roughly equally common in Google books).
• Remove unnecessary introduction of foreign word Gleichschaltung in the introduction (it is best introduced and explained later).

--Boson (talk) 18:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Sounds okay to me, however, I would state: Nazi Germany and Third Reich are common names for Germany during the period from 1933 to 1945, when its government was controlled by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party or NSDAP. Kierzek (talk) 18:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Using little-known foreign words in the lead must be off-putting to many of our readers. I think this is a good edit. Slightly different wording: "Nazi Germany and Third Reich are common names for Germany during the period from 1933 to 1945, when its government was controlled by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), commonly known as the Nazi Party." For the second sentence, spheres that are part of private life were also controlled by the Nazis, such as marriage and recreational activities, so that should be re-worded perhaps to say "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed into a totalitarian state where nearly all aspects of life were controlled by the state. Nazi Germany ceased to exist after the Allied Forces defeated the Wehrmacht in May 1945, thus ending World War II in Europe." -- Dianna (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.The only problem I see is that people might wonder why "National Socialist German Workers' Party" abbreviates to "NSDAP". Perhaps a footnote with the German name? --Boson (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

An explanatory note using {{efn}} could be added. -- Dianna (talk) 23:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Dianna version but i also agree with Boson regarding the "NSDAP" it does not belong in lede just as "Gleichscaltung" Peterzor (talk) 06:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Also i would be completly satisfied if we somehow changed "into a totalitarian state" to "was a totalitarian state" Peterzor (talk) 06:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" as a motto should be restored 95.195.204.117 (talk) 07:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Nazi germany was an empire! 95.195.204.117 (talk) 07:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Dianna, I agree with your version and agree it should remain with the wording: "transformed into a totalitarian state"; for the reasons, I have stated above in other sections when this was discussed. Kierzek (talk) 11:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Note the IP is very likely Peterzor, editing while logged out. (I have removed the "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" as it was not an official state motto; it was a rallying cry and political slogan of the NSDAP. This matter is discussed elsewhere on this page.) We don't need to introduce the abbreviation in the lead. I am going to go ahead and put in the edit. -- Dianna (talk) 14:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Motto

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer is Nazi Germany's Motto Peterzor (talk) 15:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Peterzor. The material I looked at says this was a slogan and rallying cry of the NSDAP, not a national motto of Nazi Germany. The material was removed as unsourced, as you can see in the other thread on this topic. Talk:Nazi Germany#Motto ? -- Dianna (talk) 18:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

What makes for a national motto? I think this one does qualify. Bendersky (2007) says: "The slogan "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" left an indelible mark on the minds of most Germans who lived through the Nazi years. It appeared on countless posters and in publications; it was heard constantly in radio broadcasts and speeches." See his insightful discussion of its central role in shaping popular thought at Joseph W. Bendersky (2007). A Concise History of Nazi Germany: 1919-1945. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 105.. Rjensen (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support for inclusion of the motto.
  • Given the nature of the regime, it may not always be clear what is a party slogan and what is a national motto.
  • The slogan itself implies the unity of party and state and suggests that it was also intended as a national motto.
  • I think there should be some lattitude in populating infoboxes, since they should present salient information in summary form.
  • I think the exact nature of the slogan should be further explained in the body of the article and/or in a footnote, so that the reader is aware of the discretion used in classifying it as the motto of the Third Reich.

--Boson (talk) 19:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, there were lots of Nazi mottos, for example "Blut und Boden" (Blood and Soil), "Kraft durch Freude" (Strength through joy), "Meine Ehre heiftt Treue" (My loyalty is my Honour), etc, etc. --Nug (talk) 08:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

1. K. G. Saur Verlag GmbH & Company (1 January 1989). Perspectives on the Holocaust. Walter de Gruyter. pp. 229–. ISBN 978-3-11-097619-9.
2. "Leaders mourn Soviet wartime dead". BBC News. 9 May 2005. Retrieved 18 March 2011.
3. "Florida Center for Instructional Technology, College of Education, University of South Florida, A Teachers Guide to the Holocaust". Fcit.usf.edu. Retrieved 2011-06-15.
4. Dieter Pohl, Verfolgung und Massenmord in der NS-Zeit 1933–1945, WBG (Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft), 2003, ISBN 3534151585, Page 153
5. Rummel 1994, table, p. 112. sfn error: no target: CITEREFRummel1994 (help)
6. Rummel 1994, p. 112. sfn error: no target: CITEREFRummel1994 (help)
7. Hubert, Michael, Deutschland im Wandel. Geschichte der deutschen Bevolkerung seit 1815 Steiner, Franz Verlag 1998 ISBN 3-515-07392-2 p. 272
8. Overmans 2000, p. Bd. 46. sfn error: no target: CITEREFOvermans2000 (help)
9. Wirtschaft und Statistik October 1956, journal published by Statistisches Bundesamt Deutschland.(German government Statistical Office) and The Statistisches Jahrbuch für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland 1960, Page 78.
10. Germany reports. With an introd. by Konrad Adenauer. Germany (West). Presse- und Informationsamt. Wiesbaden, Distribution: F. Steiner, 1961] Page 32
11. Bundesarchiv Euthanasie" im Nationalsozialismus
12. Hoffmann 1996, p. xiii. sfn error: no target: CITEREFHoffmann1996 (help)
13. Evans 2008, pp. 711–713. sfn error: no target: CITEREFEvans2008 (help)
14. Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50. Herausgeber: Statistisches Bundesamt - Wiesbaden. - Stuttgart: Verlag W. Kohlhammer, 1958 pages 38 & 46. The West German Statistical office put the number of persons directly encompassed in the expulsions at 11.6 million and 11.9 million in total taking into account children born from 1946-1950
15. Ursprünge, Arten und Folgen des Konstrukts „Bevölkerung“ vor, im und nach dem „Dritten Reich“ Zur Geschichte der deutschen Bevölkerungswissensch: Ingo Haar Die deutschen ›Vertreibungsverluste‹ – Forschungsstand, Kontexte und Probleme, in Ursprünge, Arten und Folgen des Konstrukts „Bevölkerung“ vor, im und nach dem „Dritten Reich“ Springer 2009: ISBN 978-3-531-16152-5
16. Hans Henning Hahn and Eva Hahnova : Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte. Paderborn 2010, ISBN 978-3-506-77044-8 Pages 659-726
17. Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer- Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste - 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005 ( Published by the Search Service of the German Red Cross. The forward to the book was written by German President Horst Köhler and the German interior minister Otto Schily)
18. Beevor 2002, pp. 31–32, 409–412. sfn error: no target: CITEREFBeevor2002 (help)
19. Time, 9 July 1979. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTime,_9_July_1979 (help)
20. Pilisuk & Rountree 2008, p. 136. sfn error: no target: CITEREFPilisukRountree2008 (help)

• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class history articles
• High-importance history articles
• WikiProject History articles
• C-Class European history articles
• High-importance European history articles
• All WikiProject European history pages
• C-Class military history articles
• C-Class European military history articles
• European military history task force articles
• C-Class German military history articles
• German military history task force articles
• C-Class World War II articles
• World War II task force articles
• C-Class Germany articles
• Top-importance Germany articles
• WikiProject Germany articles
• C-Class former country articles
• WikiProject Former countries articles
• C-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• C-Class Austria articles
• Mid-importance Austria articles
• All WikiProject Austria pages