Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 02:50, 31 May 2013 editEdJohnston (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Administrators71,224 edits →IranitGreenberg: Collapse box← Previous edit		Revision as of 18:32, 1 June 2013 edit undoNovaSkola (talk \| contribs)15,334 edits →Request concerning Proudbolsahye/Ninetoyadome/Yerevanci: new sectionNext edit →
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	::*I concur with and impose the topic ban, for abusing multiple accounts to edit in the topic area, and promoting their own organization (e.g., ) in violation of ]. There's also likely persistent one-sided editing (making changes only or predominantly in favor of the position of one side of the conflict), in violation of ]. Because the topic ban applies to the person and all their accounts, a one-account restriction does not appear to add anything of substance to me, but others are free to impose it. I am also, as a normal administrator action, indefinitely blocking Soosim for the abuse of multiple accounts. So closed, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 20:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)		::*I concur with and impose the topic ban, for abusing multiple accounts to edit in the topic area, and promoting their own organization (e.g., ) in violation of ]. There's also likely persistent one-sided editing (making changes only or predominantly in favor of the position of one side of the conflict), in violation of ]. Because the topic ban applies to the person and all their accounts, a one-account restriction does not appear to add anything of substance to me, but others are free to impose it. I am also, as a normal administrator action, indefinitely blocking Soosim for the abuse of multiple accounts. So closed, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 20:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
	{{hab}}		{{hab}}

			== Request concerning Proudbolsahye/Ninetoyadome/Yerevanci ==

			==Proudbolsahye==
			<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>

			===Request concerning Proudbolsahye===
			; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] (]) 18:32, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

			; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks\|Proudbolsahye}}
			; User against whom enforcement is requested :
			*{{userlinks\|Proudbolsahye}}
			*{{userlinks\|Ninetoyadome}}
			*{{userlinks\|Yerevanci}}

			;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]
			This users have been ignoring wikipedia's policies and didn't even want to take participation in talk page and have been section blanking, while removing my relavant and well sourced information in ] article.

			; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
			<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. -->
			# I am discovering, ]. And looking into these past cases more shows thatProudbolsahye/Ninetoyadome/Yerevanci has not changed any behavior of his that were problematic in the other cases. For example, shows the same problematic behavior.
			# Section blanking by users Proudbolsahye, Ninetoyadome, Yerevanci, without reading the talk guide, despite being warned about it. Furthermore, appearance of all this users

			; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) :
			<!-- Many arbitration remedies require a prior warning before sanctions may be imposed. Link to the warning here. -->
			#Warned on by {{user\|NovaSkola}}

			; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
			<!-- Add any further comment here -->

			; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
			<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request, and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->

			<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
			===Discussion concerning USERNAME===
			<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br>Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
			====Statement by USERNAME====

			====Statement by (username)====
			<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->

			===Result concerning USERNAME===
			<!-- Use {{hat\|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.-->
			<small>''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.''</small>

Revision as of 18:32, 1 June 2013

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See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts

Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
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Tenmei/Ansei

Tenmei/Ansei is banned from all topics that concern the Ryukyu Islands as a whole, including their past or present political status. EdJohnston (talk) 20:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning Tenmei/Ansei User who is submitting this request for enforcement —Ryulong (琉竜) 15:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Tenmei (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Ansei (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy to be enforced Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands#Tenmei topic banned indefinitely Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/March 2013#Ryūkyū province and domain Discussion concerning Ryukyu Islands Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ryūkyū Province AFD on similar topic Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan#Ryūkyū province and domain Second discussion on topic Additional comments by editor filing complaint Tenmei (talk · contribs) was indefinitely banned from editing any Senkaku Islands or related page in 2011. In 2012, after a year long site ban was lifted, he retired under "Tenmei" and began editing as "Ansei", a fact he admits here, 7 months after the initial act. The Ryukyu Islands, the topic area in which he has been disrupting lately, are the region of Japan in which the Senkaku Islands are located, and it is this reason that I believe he is in violation of his original indefinite topic ban, as it is stated to be "widely construed". His lack of transparency in his changed username until recently is also highly problematic, even though he had not operated as Ansei during his year long ban. I have also emailed the arbitration committee on this issue, but I was not aware of this page at the time.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC) @EdJohnston: The ban was to be widely interpretted, so yes. The entirety of the Ryukyu Island chain, of which the Senkaku Islands are a part, should very likely be considered part of the ban, particularly because he has been disrupting the articles and has not been forward with his previous identity until recently.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Ed, I do not believe that Ansei is aware of what is going on here. He will continue to debate the article until he is blue in the face. This seems to be symptomatic of his behavior.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:56, 25 May 2013 (UTC) Also, as I am discovering, he may still be under these restrictions, as well. And looking into these past cases more shows that Tenmei/Ansei has not changed any behavior of his that were problematic in the other cases. For example, this edit shows the same problematic behavior noted in the Senkaku case.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC) @Ansei: This discussion is not and should not be a continuation of your debate on the now deleted "Ryūkyū Province" article. It is an investigation into whether or not you violated your "widely construed" topic ban from the Senkaku Islands arbitration case and how the arbitration committee and administrators should deal with this possible transgression. We have also mentioned your continued deleterious behavior, such as your unnecessary linking to actual encyclopedia articles as a means of expressing your opinion.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC) Again, Ansei, stop debating the province shit. This is about whether or not editing subjects on the entirety of the Ryukyu Islands is involved in your topic ban.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC) Can someone advise Ansei to stop debating the AFD and cut down his arguments because he has most definitely broken the 500 word limit?—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:07, 27 May 2013 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Notified, 15:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Discussion concerning Ansei Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Ansei My participation in our project need to be encouraged. This sends a different message. Please notice the measured words and tone of my diffs. My sentences invite collaborative work -- for example, Let's try to agree that this discussion thread is not about my opinion or your opinion. Can we start by agreeing that WP:V is fundamental in the on-going work of our project? --Ansei (talk) 15:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Is this the wrong venue? Perhaps we will be better able to establish common ground in the context of a wider discussion at WP:AfD? --Ansei (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Unless this AfD thread shows me how to reason through this problem differently, I can't know why or how this cite-based reasoning process is flawed. --Ansei (talk) 18:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC) I'm sorry to learn that you think the article is misleading. Please edit any sentence which is written in a misleading way. I hope to learn how to write better as I think carefully about any changes you make. If there is no specific problem with any specific sentence, then I'm a uncertain about the point you're trying to make. --Ansei (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2013 (UTC) Taken together, verifiability and notability are good reasons for this article to exist. No one disputes that the content of the article may be edited in ways that reflect the opinions expressed by participants in this discussion; however, this AfD is only about whether our article about Ryūkyū Province will continue to exist, isn't it? --Ansei (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC) The closed AfD did not validate a sharpened focus on what is published in reliable sources. It highlighted a chorus of loaded language which is over-reaching in this new thread. In general, for the good of our project, these kinds of destructive tactics and strategies need to be discouraged, mitigated. I understand that ArbCom tries to avoid getting involved in subjects, but it is unavoidable here because of what others have written. Please notice that online US diplomatic archives at the University of Wisconsin allow us to read what the US Minister to Japan has to say about the 1899 US-Japan treaty and about the validity of a Ryukyu Province as a subject for a cite-supported Misplaced Pages article: "... I have the honor to inclose herewith copies of editorial comments upon the notification which appear this morning in the Japan Mail and the Japan Times. The Times is published by Japanese and is one of the leading papers of Tokyo; while the Mail is the leading paper published by foreigners in this country. Its editor and proprietor is an Englishman. I am informed that the Japanese papers generally are publishing the notice with very gratifying comments. The Government officials appear to be much pleased with my publication in reciprocation of the rescript of the Emperor ...." Tokyo, Japan, July 15, 1899. Sir: I have the honor to inform you that by rescript of the Emperor the following-named ports of Japan are to be opened to foreign commerce on the new treaties coming into operation. The translation of the rescript is as follows: IMPERIAL ORDINANCE NO. 342, JULY 12, 1899. ARTICLE 1. Besides the open ports hitherto designated the following are to be also open ports ... Nawa, Ryukyu province'. (bold emphasis added) In summary, the cite shows that in 1899 Alfred Eliab Buck reported that Japanese newspapers and government officials were pleased with the publishing of the English translation of the Imperial rescript which includes Ryukyu Province. This is not controversial. My diffs were not about the Senkaku Islands, not about "POV pushing", not about "academic dishonesty", not about a "political agenda" or anything else improper. I reject the "wiki-felon" theory which underlies this thread; and ArbCom needs to explicitly reject it as well. I haven't yet worked out how to respond to inflammatory or provocative diffs, but focusing on what reliable sources have to say about any subject is a good start. Consistent with Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution, the result of this thread needs to underscore a constructive approach to prickly issues. What is to be learned from this? --Ansei (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC) @ EdJohnston + FuturePerfect -- WorldCat's abstract of George Kerr's 1953 book Ryukyu Kingdom and Province before 1945 explains that the book is about "the history of the Ryukyu Islands before 1945: Pre-history, the period of the Ryukyu Kingdom, the Satsuma Invasion, the transition from Kingdom to Province, assimilation and WWII" (bold emphasis added). This book was cited in the AfD; and it supports my understanding that the subject is not within the scope of whatever ArbCom had in mind in 2011. Ward Goodenough wrote in The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science that Kerr's "work is the product of the program of Scientific Investigtrions of the Ryukyu Islands (SIRI), inaugurated by the Pacific Science Board of the National Research Council under authorization by the Department of the Army. Kerr's original report in 1953, entitled Ryukyu:Kingdom and Province before 1945, was translated into Japanese as Ryukyu Rekishi (Ryukuyan History) in 1956." See 琉球の歴史 here. This background information seems necessary because of some of the comments here. --Ansei (talk) 20:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC) @ Sandstein -- What "problemic conduct" is on-point in this AE thread? Something simple is made complicated, but this is not my doing. It is not easy to understand. In this specific context, the first paragraph of WP:V needs to be repeated as if it were somehow fresh, novel or unnoticed: "In Misplaced Pages, verifiability means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Misplaced Pages does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. When reliable sources disagree, present what the various sources say, give each side its due weight, and maintain a neutral point of view." (bold and underline added for emphasis) In the AfD thread -- just as in Senkaku Islands and in Senkaku Islands dispute and in every other article I have ever tried to improve -- a review will show my work is consistent with the fundamental POV that "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth". My diffs have no point of view except what is to be found in published sources. This is a good thing -- but it becomes messy when a discussion is complicated by loaded language and straw man arguments like the ones in the AfD and in this AE thread. In the AfD, the process of focusing on "verifiability, not truth" was cut short by Bueller 007's personal attack diffs. The function of his diffs was to delegitimise the cited reliable sources by re-focusing on other things. In this AE thread, Bueller 007 marries a broad personal attack with a defense of my perceived intentions. It is an unexpected pairing. Please give some thought the implications of just one bullet criticism: "His method of "research" is anti-scientific, in that he knows what he wants to affirm, then seeks out evidence to affirm it. Here, he wants to show that Ryukyu is a province, so ... he Googles "Ryukyu province" and presents all the results he can find ..." Is this not what anyone should be doing in an AfD? When a place name is explicitly mentioned in an 1894 United States treaty, the subject is an example of WP:Inherent notability. Also, this AfD discussion adduced support in the National Archives of Japan (NAJ) here. In the AfD thread, Cckerberos explained: "The term 琉球国 does appear in some Meiji period government documents post-dating the establishment of Okinawa Prefecture" and "when a 1894 law uses 琉球国那覇港, it's not referring to the no longer existent independent country, it's referring to a place in what had already become Okinawa prefecture". It is over-reaching to construe this as having to do with the Senkaku Islands dispute Across a span of years, I have done everything I can to jump through ArbCom hoops. This record of cooperation and compliance is a strong counter-balance to easy complaints like the ones posted here. Please notice that excerpts showing my cooperation-building strategy in the AfD are numbered above. Please notice that in both the AfD and in this AE thread, these numbered bullets are not acknowledged. In the AfD thread, only Cckerberos responded to my invitation to work together. It is harmful to our project when shifting the focus to me is substituted for discussion based on WP:V and WP:RS. The AfD discussion was marked by inflammatory and provocative diffs which are continued here. It is harmful to our project when destructive tactics and strategies are validated. There is no cause for the ArbCom actions suggested by Ryulong and Bueller 007. However, I need for this thread to make clear that the purpose of the ArbCom process is (a) not to punish and (b) not to delegitimise the constructive contributions of anyone including me. --Ansei (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by (previously uninvolved) 5.12.68.204 After reading that AfD, I think that if somehow the topic at hand here is not found covered by the topic ban, this issue should go to WP:AN for a community ban. The claim that a Ryūkyū Province (kuni) existed between 1609-1872 instead of a vassal kingdom is a clear case of persistent and frankly ridiculous POV pushing based on misreadings if not downright misinterpretation of a handful of sources. An example of source misrepresentation I found myself is omitting the "however" part from a source . Except Tenmei/Ansei no editor or source supported his view. Sources to the contrary abound, e.g. there's Ph.D. thesis titled The Government of the Kingdom of Ryukyu, 1609–1872 cited in the article on the Kingdom. What we have here is an editor who was sanctioned in two ArbCom cases who continues the same pattern of behavior, and which is clearly detrimental to our readers. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC) I think that Bueller 007's points #3 and #4 are evidence of Tenmei/Ansei pushing his own point of view instead of aiming for a NPOV article. Maybe I'm not sufficiently familiar with the term "POV pushing"... Or perhaps Bueller meant to say that Tenmei/Ansei's editing is not motivated by some nationalistic POV? I don't care to speculate what might motivate Tenmei/Ansei, but a highly idiosyncratic POV is equally problematic. One Japanese editor remarked in the AfD that Tenmei/Ansei's position in this matter goes beyond what is espoused even by ultra-nationalists ... 5.12.68.204 (talk) 00:00, 24 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Bueller 007 First, some positive comments. Contrary to what others may say about Ansei/Tenmei, I do not think that he is a POV pusher, insomuch as I don't think he has a particular axe to grind regarding Senkaku, Ryukyu, etc. In addition, though still lacking in concision, his style of communication has improved dramatically since his edit ban. (This is a rather low bar, however, as his writing was previously the most verbose and obfuscatory that I have ever encountered.) Rather, in my occasional experience with Ansei/Tenmei over the last six? years or so, I think his remaining problems are: He dives headlong into subjects about which he knows very little. In this particular case, he somehow got it in his head that Ryukyu was a province, and in addition to maintaining the "Ryukyu Province" article, he also made edits to insert this misinformation into a large number of related Misplaced Pages pages. His inability to read Japanese is particularly problematic considering that Japanese history is his preferred topic. I would suggest that Tenmei/Ansei consider consulting with more knowledgeable people before he goes gangbusters on any given topic, particularly when it is based on evidence that a sensible, knowledgeable person would consider "not particularly convincing". Because he is such a prolific editor (and one who is not infrequently incorrect), cleaning up after him can be a long and disheartening process. He will not admit when he is wrong, even when he is very clearly wrong. As in this case. His method of "research" is anti-scientific, in that he knows what he wants to affirm, then seeks out evidence to affirm it. Here, he wants to show that Ryukyu is a province, so instead of consulting any of the bazillion history books that would tell him that it was in fact a vassal state, he Googles "Ryukyu province" and presents all the results he can find (including those that are obviously errors to anyone with general knowledge on the subject). This method of "research", besides being academically dishonest, also gives extremely biased results, because he is--in the words of Carl Sagan--"counting the hits and ignoring the misses". He misreads, misinterprets, or misrepresents his sources (as in the example presented by 5.12.68.204 above). And of course, always in a way that makes his point of view the "right" one. He must address these issues before he engages in any "controversial" edits, but ultimately I'm not sure that arbitration enforcement is the way to go about it. Because I don't think that he's an intentional POV pusher (he merely cannot admit when he's wrong), I'm not sure that this is necessarily related to his Senkaku Islands ban. Bueller 007 (talk) 23:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC) To address the second point of 5.12.68.204 above, what I mean when I say that I don't think he's a "POV pusher" is that I don't think he is trying to push an ideological bias. His motivations are relevant here, because that's how the current Ryukyu Province case is being linked to the Senkaku Islands case. For that reason, I agree that if any action is to be taken, that community action may be more appropriate than arbitration enforcement. Bueller 007 (talk) 00:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC) Again, even at this stage Ansei cannot admit that he is wrong. @Ansei: if Ryukyu were a province, there would be official Japanese government documents ruling that it had become one. Those documents do not exist. As has been pointed out above, not even Japanese ultranationalists think that Ryukyu was a province of Japan. Your reliance on obscure ENGLISH sources is inadequate, and is original research at best. (If you were to show that Ryukyu had actually been a province, then school textbooks throughout Japan would have to be rewritten.) Consider that 琉球国 had to be translated from Japanese into English and that it is very easy to imagine that someone could have misinterpreted 国 as meaning "province" in this case. There is absolutely no evidence that Ryukyu was ever an official province of Japan. It was an independent kingdom prior to 1609, a vassal state of the Satsuma until 1872 (but nevertheless remained an independent kingdom that also paid tribute to China...this arrangement was actually in the interests of Japan so that they could conduct trade with China under haijin and sakoku; they did not WANT it to become a province, otherwise trade would stop because China only traded with their tributaries), a domain until 1879, and a prefecture thereafter. Please stop with this silliness. Bueller 007 (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC) To administrators enforcing this arbitration: I agree that Ansei needs to be admonished somehow, however, if you yourselves are unable to decide what "Senkaku broadly construed" means, then how was Ansei expected to know where to draw the line? Should he have thought that "broadly construed" meant Chinese-Japanese territorial disputes? Anything regarding the Ryukyu Islands? Or perhaps all of Japan or East Asia? I don't think this can be enforced fairly because the original wording was so vague. Perhaps the Ryukyu Islands should be explicitly added to his topic ban, as he clearly still has not given up on this 'province' nonsense. Bueller 007 (talk) 17:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC) @EdJohnston: I agree with your solution. Bueller 007 (talk) 23:49, 24 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by Lothar von Richthofen Last fall, I filed a clarification request as to whether or not the Ryukyus fall under WP:SENKAKU (see here). NYB stated: I believe the intent of the remedies in the Senkaku Islands case is broad enough to allow an administrator to impose discretionary sanctions concerning Ryukyu Islands and Ryukyu Arc. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:20, 26 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Ansei This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Ryulong, your position is that Ansei should not edit anything regarding the Ryukyu Islands because the Senkaku Islands are considered to be part of that chain? You would be asking for a clarification of the scope of Ansei's ban. I guess you are saying that the Senkakus are part of Okinawa Prefecture and are therefore included in the Ryukyus. EdJohnston (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC) I looked over the evidence section of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands and it suggests that Tenmei/Ansei has an exasperating style in discussions. Arbcom took note of this in their Finding of Fact]. They observe that the same problem from Tenmei was seen in the Tang Dynasty case. It is easy to see this discussion style also in operation in the dispute abut Ryukyu Domain versus Ryukyu Province. My recommendation is to interpret Tenmei/Ansei's topic ban as covering the Ryukyus, under the phrase 'broadly construed.' Tenmei's behavior has been found troublesome by Arbcom twice and now the same problem seems to be occurring here. It would not be adventurous or a bold extrapolation to extend the ban to the Ryukyus but if there is any doubt at all a request for clarification might be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC) @Bueller 007: Yes, my argument is that Ansei may not have been aware that his ban keeps him away from all Ryukyu topics. So this case should be closed to warn him not to edit anything about the Ryukyu Islands in the future. No blocks would be issued for any behavior on the Ryukyus up to this point. EdJohnston (talk) 20:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC) I would be inclined to be not too strict about this, if Tenmei/Ansei's edits were concerned with some purely geographical content unrelated to the international disputes that he was meant to be kept away from. However, several remarks by himself and others in the discussions linked to above seem to suggest that there is some kind of POV angle, in the sense that the historical status of Ryukyu as a "province" of Japan (which appears to be the immediate topic under dispute) might be seen as relevant in the context of some argument about the present-day international sovereignty dispute between Japan and China, and that Tenmei/Ansei's edits in this area were thus at least partly motivated by his political agenda with respect to Senkaku. If that is the case, I'd say it's a clear case of a ban violation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC) I agree that, in view of Ansei's problematic conduct, it appears appropriate to clarify that the arbitral topic ban about the Senkaku Islands also covers the topic of the Ryuku Islands as a whole (but not necessarily other islands in the Ryuku Islands). Other sanctions for, e.g., using multiple accounts to evade scrutiny, should be contemplated at the community level. Sandstein 10:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC) Closing. Tenmei/Ansei is warned that his topic ban includes anything pertaining to the Ryukyu Islands as a whole, including the past or present political status of those islands. He can make no edits regarding the Ryukyu Domain, the Ryukyu Kingdom or the Ryukyu Province. EdJohnston (talk) 19:59, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Tenmei/Ansei is banned from all topics that concern the Ryukyu Islands as a whole, including their past or present political status. EdJohnston (talk) 20:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Tenmei/Ansei

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: —Ryulong (琉竜) 15:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Tenmei (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ansei (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands#Tenmei topic banned indefinitely

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/March 2013#Ryūkyū province and domain Discussion concerning Ryukyu Islands
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ryūkyū Province AFD on similar topic
Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan#Ryūkyū province and domain Second discussion on topic

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Tenmei (talk · contribs) was indefinitely banned from editing any Senkaku Islands or related page in 2011. In 2012, after a year long site ban was lifted, he retired under "Tenmei" and began editing as "Ansei", a fact he admits here, 7 months after the initial act. The Ryukyu Islands, the topic area in which he has been disrupting lately, are the region of Japan in which the Senkaku Islands are located, and it is this reason that I believe he is in violation of his original indefinite topic ban, as it is stated to be "widely construed". His lack of transparency in his changed username until recently is also highly problematic, even though he had not operated as Ansei during his year long ban. I have also emailed the arbitration committee on this issue, but I was not aware of this page at the time.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: The ban was to be widely interpretted, so yes. The entirety of the Ryukyu Island chain, of which the Senkaku Islands are a part, should very likely be considered part of the ban, particularly because he has been disrupting the articles and has not been forward with his previous identity until recently.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Ed, I do not believe that Ansei is aware of what is going on here. He will continue to debate the article until he is blue in the face. This seems to be symptomatic of his behavior.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:56, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Also, as I am discovering, he may still be under these restrictions, as well. And looking into these past cases more shows that Tenmei/Ansei has not changed any behavior of his that were problematic in the other cases. For example, this edit shows the same problematic behavior noted in the Senkaku case.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
@Ansei: This discussion is not and should not be a continuation of your debate on the now deleted "Ryūkyū Province" article. It is an investigation into whether or not you violated your "widely construed" topic ban from the Senkaku Islands arbitration case and how the arbitration committee and administrators should deal with this possible transgression. We have also mentioned your continued deleterious behavior, such as your unnecessary linking to actual encyclopedia articles as a means of expressing your opinion.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Again, Ansei, stop debating the province shit. This is about whether or not editing subjects on the entirety of the Ryukyu Islands is involved in your topic ban.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Can someone advise Ansei to stop debating the AFD and cut down his arguments because he has most definitely broken the 500 word limit?—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:07, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified, 15:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Ansei

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ansei

My participation in our project need to be encouraged. This sends a different message.

Please notice the measured words and tone of my diffs. My sentences invite collaborative work -- for example,

Let's try to agree that this discussion thread is not about my opinion or your opinion. Can we start by agreeing that WP:V is fundamental in the on-going work of our project? --Ansei (talk) 15:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Is this the wrong venue? Perhaps we will be better able to establish common ground in the context of a wider discussion at WP:AfD? --Ansei (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Unless this AfD thread shows me how to reason through this problem differently, I can't know why or how this cite-based reasoning process is flawed. --Ansei (talk) 18:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry to learn that you think the article is misleading. Please edit any sentence which is written in a misleading way. I hope to learn how to write better as I think carefully about any changes you make. If there is no specific problem with any specific sentence, then I'm a uncertain about the point you're trying to make. --Ansei (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Taken together, verifiability and notability are good reasons for this article to exist. No one disputes that the content of the article may be edited in ways that reflect the opinions expressed by participants in this discussion; however, this AfD is only about whether our article about Ryūkyū Province will continue to exist, isn't it? --Ansei (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The closed AfD did not validate a sharpened focus on what is published in reliable sources. It highlighted a chorus of loaded language which is over-reaching in this new thread. In general, for the good of our project, these kinds of destructive tactics and strategies need to be discouraged, mitigated.

I understand that ArbCom tries to avoid getting involved in subjects, but it is unavoidable here because of what others have written. Please notice that online US diplomatic archives at the University of Wisconsin allow us to read what the US Minister to Japan has to say about the 1899 US-Japan treaty and about the validity of a Ryukyu Province as a subject for a cite-supported Misplaced Pages article:

"... I have the honor to inclose herewith copies of editorial comments upon the notification which appear this morning in the Japan Mail and the Japan Times. The Times is published by Japanese and is one of the leading papers of Tokyo; while the Mail is the leading paper published by foreigners in this country. Its editor and proprietor is an Englishman. I am informed that the Japanese papers generally are publishing the notice with very gratifying comments. The Government officials appear to be much pleased with my publication in reciprocation of the rescript of the Emperor ...."

Tokyo, Japan, July 15, 1899. Sir: I have the honor to inform you that by rescript of the Emperor the following-named ports of Japan are to be opened to foreign commerce on the new treaties coming into operation. The translation of the rescript is as follows: IMPERIAL ORDINANCE NO. 342, JULY 12, 1899. ARTICLE 1. Besides the open ports hitherto designated the following are to be also open ports ... Nawa, Ryukyu province'. (bold emphasis added)

In summary, the cite shows that in 1899 Alfred Eliab Buck reported that Japanese newspapers and government officials were pleased with the publishing of the English translation of the Imperial rescript which includes Ryukyu Province. This is not controversial.

My diffs were not about the Senkaku Islands, not about "POV pushing", not about "academic dishonesty", not about a "political agenda" or anything else improper.

I reject the "wiki-felon" theory which underlies this thread; and ArbCom needs to explicitly reject it as well.

I haven't yet worked out how to respond to inflammatory or provocative diffs, but focusing on what reliable sources have to say about any subject is a good start. Consistent with Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution, the result of this thread needs to underscore a constructive approach to prickly issues. What is to be learned from this? --Ansei (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@ EdJohnston + FuturePerfect -- WorldCat's abstract of George Kerr's 1953 book Ryukyu Kingdom and Province before 1945 explains that the book is about "the history of the Ryukyu Islands before 1945: Pre-history, the period of the Ryukyu Kingdom, the Satsuma Invasion, the transition from Kingdom to Province, assimilation and WWII" (bold emphasis added). This book was cited in the AfD; and it supports my understanding that the subject is not within the scope of whatever ArbCom had in mind in 2011. Ward Goodenough wrote in The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science that Kerr's "work is the product of the program of Scientific Investigtrions of the Ryukyu Islands (SIRI), inaugurated by the Pacific Science Board of the National Research Council under authorization by the Department of the Army. Kerr's original report in 1953, entitled Ryukyu:Kingdom and Province before 1945, was translated into Japanese as Ryukyu Rekishi (Ryukuyan History) in 1956." See 琉球の歴史 here. This background information seems necessary because of some of the comments here. --Ansei (talk) 20:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@ Sandstein -- What "problemic conduct" is on-point in this AE thread? Something simple is made complicated, but this is not my doing. It is not easy to understand.

In this specific context, the first paragraph of WP:V needs to be repeated as if it were somehow fresh, novel or unnoticed:

"In Misplaced Pages, verifiability means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Misplaced Pages does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. When reliable sources disagree, present what the various sources say, give each side its due weight, and maintain a neutral point of view." (bold and underline added for emphasis)

In the AfD thread -- just as in Senkaku Islands and in Senkaku Islands dispute and in every other article I have ever tried to improve -- a review will show my work is consistent with the fundamental POV that "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth". My diffs have no point of view except what is to be found in published sources. This is a good thing -- but it becomes messy when a discussion is complicated by loaded language and straw man arguments like the ones in the AfD and in this AE thread.

In the AfD, the process of focusing on "verifiability, not truth" was cut short by Bueller 007's personal attack diffs. The function of his diffs was to delegitimise the cited reliable sources by re-focusing on other things. In this AE thread, Bueller 007 marries a broad personal attack with a defense of my perceived intentions. It is an unexpected pairing. Please give some thought the implications of just one bullet criticism:

"His method of "research" is anti-scientific, in that he knows what he wants to affirm, then seeks out evidence to affirm it. Here, he wants to show that Ryukyu is a province, so ... he Googles "Ryukyu province" and presents all the results he can find ..."

Is this not what anyone should be doing in an AfD?

When a place name is explicitly mentioned in an 1894 United States treaty, the subject is an example of WP:Inherent notability. Also, this AfD discussion adduced support in the National Archives of Japan (NAJ) here. In the AfD thread, Cckerberos explained: "The term 琉球国 does appear in some Meiji period government documents post-dating the establishment of Okinawa Prefecture" and "when a 1894 law uses 琉球国那覇港, it's not referring to the no longer existent independent country, it's referring to a place in what had already become Okinawa prefecture". It is over-reaching to construe this as having to do with the Senkaku Islands dispute

Across a span of years, I have done everything I can to jump through ArbCom hoops. This record of cooperation and compliance is a strong counter-balance to easy complaints like the ones posted here. Please notice that excerpts showing my cooperation-building strategy in the AfD are numbered above. Please notice that in both the AfD and in this AE thread, these numbered bullets are not acknowledged. In the AfD thread, only Cckerberos responded to my invitation to work together. It is harmful to our project when shifting the focus to me is substituted for discussion based on WP:V and WP:RS. The AfD discussion was marked by inflammatory and provocative diffs which are continued here. It is harmful to our project when destructive tactics and strategies are validated. There is no cause for the ArbCom actions suggested by Ryulong and Bueller 007. However, I need for this thread to make clear that the purpose of the ArbCom process is (a) not to punish and (b) not to delegitimise the constructive contributions of anyone including me. --Ansei (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (previously uninvolved) 5.12.68.204

After reading that AfD, I think that if somehow the topic at hand here is not found covered by the topic ban, this issue should go to WP:AN for a community ban. The claim that a Ryūkyū Province (kuni) existed between 1609-1872 instead of a vassal kingdom is a clear case of persistent and frankly ridiculous POV pushing based on misreadings if not downright misinterpretation of a handful of sources. An example of source misrepresentation I found myself is omitting the "however" part from a source . Except Tenmei/Ansei no editor or source supported his view. Sources to the contrary abound, e.g. there's Ph.D. thesis titled The Government of the Kingdom of Ryukyu, 1609–1872 cited in the article on the Kingdom. What we have here is an editor who was sanctioned in two ArbCom cases who continues the same pattern of behavior, and which is clearly detrimental to our readers. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that Bueller 007's points #3 and #4 are evidence of Tenmei/Ansei pushing his own point of view instead of aiming for a NPOV article. Maybe I'm not sufficiently familiar with the term "POV pushing"... Or perhaps Bueller meant to say that Tenmei/Ansei's editing is not motivated by some nationalistic POV? I don't care to speculate what might motivate Tenmei/Ansei, but a highly idiosyncratic POV is equally problematic. One Japanese editor remarked in the AfD that Tenmei/Ansei's position in this matter goes beyond what is espoused even by ultra-nationalists ... 5.12.68.204 (talk) 00:00, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Bueller 007

First, some positive comments. Contrary to what others may say about Ansei/Tenmei, I do not think that he is a POV pusher, insomuch as I don't think he has a particular axe to grind regarding Senkaku, Ryukyu, etc. In addition, though still lacking in concision, his style of communication has improved dramatically since his edit ban. (This is a rather low bar, however, as his writing was previously the most verbose and obfuscatory that I have ever encountered.) Rather, in my occasional experience with Ansei/Tenmei over the last six? years or so, I think his remaining problems are:

He dives headlong into subjects about which he knows very little. In this particular case, he somehow got it in his head that Ryukyu was a province, and in addition to maintaining the "Ryukyu Province" article, he also made edits to insert this misinformation into a large number of related Misplaced Pages pages. His inability to read Japanese is particularly problematic considering that Japanese history is his preferred topic. I would suggest that Tenmei/Ansei consider consulting with more knowledgeable people before he goes gangbusters on any given topic, particularly when it is based on evidence that a sensible, knowledgeable person would consider "not particularly convincing". Because he is such a prolific editor (and one who is not infrequently incorrect), cleaning up after him can be a long and disheartening process.
He will not admit when he is wrong, even when he is very clearly wrong. As in this case.
His method of "research" is anti-scientific, in that he knows what he wants to affirm, then seeks out evidence to affirm it. Here, he wants to show that Ryukyu is a province, so instead of consulting any of the bazillion history books that would tell him that it was in fact a vassal state, he Googles "Ryukyu province" and presents all the results he can find (including those that are obviously errors to anyone with general knowledge on the subject). This method of "research", besides being academically dishonest, also gives extremely biased results, because he is--in the words of Carl Sagan--"counting the hits and ignoring the misses".
He misreads, misinterprets, or misrepresents his sources (as in the example presented by 5.12.68.204 above). And of course, always in a way that makes his point of view the "right" one.

He must address these issues before he engages in any "controversial" edits, but ultimately I'm not sure that arbitration enforcement is the way to go about it. Because I don't think that he's an intentional POV pusher (he merely cannot admit when he's wrong), I'm not sure that this is necessarily related to his Senkaku Islands ban. Bueller 007 (talk) 23:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

To address the second point of 5.12.68.204 above, what I mean when I say that I don't think he's a "POV pusher" is that I don't think he is trying to push an ideological bias. His motivations are relevant here, because that's how the current Ryukyu Province case is being linked to the Senkaku Islands case. For that reason, I agree that if any action is to be taken, that community action may be more appropriate than arbitration enforcement. Bueller 007 (talk) 00:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, even at this stage Ansei cannot admit that he is wrong. @Ansei: if Ryukyu were a province, there would be official Japanese government documents ruling that it had become one. Those documents do not exist. As has been pointed out above, not even Japanese ultranationalists think that Ryukyu was a province of Japan. Your reliance on obscure ENGLISH sources is inadequate, and is original research at best. (If you were to show that Ryukyu had actually been a province, then school textbooks throughout Japan would have to be rewritten.) Consider that 琉球国 had to be translated from Japanese into English and that it is very easy to imagine that someone could have misinterpreted 国 as meaning "province" in this case. There is absolutely no evidence that Ryukyu was ever an official province of Japan. It was an independent kingdom prior to 1609, a vassal state of the Satsuma until 1872 (but nevertheless remained an independent kingdom that also paid tribute to China...this arrangement was actually in the interests of Japan so that they could conduct trade with China under haijin and sakoku; they did not WANT it to become a province, otherwise trade would stop because China only traded with their tributaries), a domain until 1879, and a prefecture thereafter. Please stop with this silliness. Bueller 007 (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

To administrators enforcing this arbitration: I agree that Ansei needs to be admonished somehow, however, if you yourselves are unable to decide what "Senkaku broadly construed" means, then how was Ansei expected to know where to draw the line? Should he have thought that "broadly construed" meant Chinese-Japanese territorial disputes? Anything regarding the Ryukyu Islands? Or perhaps all of Japan or East Asia? I don't think this can be enforced fairly because the original wording was so vague. Perhaps the Ryukyu Islands should be explicitly added to his topic ban, as he clearly still has not given up on this 'province' nonsense. Bueller 007 (talk) 17:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: I agree with your solution. Bueller 007 (talk) 23:49, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Lothar von Richthofen

Last fall, I filed a clarification request as to whether or not the Ryukyus fall under WP:SENKAKU (see here). NYB stated: I believe the intent of the remedies in the Senkaku Islands case is broad enough to allow an administrator to impose discretionary sanctions concerning Ryukyu Islands and Ryukyu Arc. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:20, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Ansei

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Ryulong, your position is that Ansei should not edit anything regarding the Ryukyu Islands because the Senkaku Islands are considered to be part of that chain? You would be asking for a clarification of the scope of Ansei's ban. I guess you are saying that the Senkakus are part of Okinawa Prefecture and are therefore included in the Ryukyus. EdJohnston (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I looked over the evidence section of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands and it suggests that Tenmei/Ansei has an exasperating style in discussions. Arbcom took note of this in their Finding of Fact]. They observe that the same problem from Tenmei was seen in the Tang Dynasty case. It is easy to see this discussion style also in operation in the dispute abut Ryukyu Domain versus Ryukyu Province. My recommendation is to interpret Tenmei/Ansei's topic ban as covering the Ryukyus, under the phrase 'broadly construed.' Tenmei's behavior has been found troublesome by Arbcom twice and now the same problem seems to be occurring here. It would not be adventurous or a bold extrapolation to extend the ban to the Ryukyus but if there is any doubt at all a request for clarification might be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@Bueller 007: Yes, my argument is that Ansei may not have been aware that his ban keeps him away from all Ryukyu topics. So this case should be closed to warn him not to edit anything about the Ryukyu Islands in the future. No blocks would be issued for any behavior on the Ryukyus up to this point. EdJohnston (talk) 20:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I would be inclined to be not too strict about this, if Tenmei/Ansei's edits were concerned with some purely geographical content unrelated to the international disputes that he was meant to be kept away from. However, several remarks by himself and others in the discussions linked to above seem to suggest that there is some kind of POV angle, in the sense that the historical status of Ryukyu as a "province" of Japan (which appears to be the immediate topic under dispute) might be seen as relevant in the context of some argument about the present-day international sovereignty dispute between Japan and China, and that Tenmei/Ansei's edits in this area were thus at least partly motivated by his political agenda with respect to Senkaku. If that is the case, I'd say it's a clear case of a ban violation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that, in view of Ansei's problematic conduct, it appears appropriate to clarify that the arbitral topic ban about the Senkaku Islands also covers the topic of the Ryuku Islands as a whole (but not necessarily other islands in the Ryuku Islands). Other sanctions for, e.g., using multiple accounts to evade scrutiny, should be contemplated at the community level. Sandstein 10:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Closing. Tenmei/Ansei is warned that his topic ban includes anything pertaining to the Ryukyu Islands as a whole, including the past or present political status of those islands. He can make no edits regarding the Ryukyu Domain, the Ryukyu Kingdom or the Ryukyu Province. EdJohnston (talk) 19:59, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Doncram

Doncram reminded to avoid commenting on contributors. Gatoclass (talk) 10:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Doncram User who is submitting this request for enforcement Orlady (talk) 20:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy to be enforced Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#General editor probation Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it This edit is an instance of a type of behavior that was at issue in the Arbcom case. Specifically, Doncram is personalizing a content discussion and is turning it into a low-grade personal attack by publicly disparaging another party to the Arbcom case (i.e., User:Nyttend) by telling another user about his perceptions of Nyttend's faults and past misdemeanors. Consistent with the "General editor probation" remedy, I believe that Doncram should be warned about this personal-attack behavior and that he should be required to edit his comments to remove the personal attacks. Additional comments by editor filing complaint Due to my past history with Doncram, I am unable to communicate with him about this sort of matter. Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Notification of user Discussion concerning Doncram Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Doncram Orlady in this diff a short while ago followed me to the wt:NRHP talk page, with sarcasm that I and other NRHP editors are “slavish” and implied stupid. I was pretty much decided not to reply there, as I suspected it was pot-stirring. I suspected that Orlady had followed my edits and found that disagreeable exchange with/about Nyttend and I suspected that Orlady was trying to bait me to respond by butting in at wt:NRHP. Orlady bringing this enforcement action now tends to support my suspicion. --do ncr am 21:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC) And, Orlady has previously contrived to find excuse to post at my Talk page, which Orlady has just now done with statement of "regret". In the arbitration others offered to take care of any necessary postings at my Talk page, if something was so imperative. I don't see how it helps develop wikipedia for this to continue. --do ncr am 21:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by The Devil's Advocate I see no evidence of misconduct here whatsoever. Disclosing to an editor who apparently asked for Doncram's comment that he has had past interactions with Nyttend seems more than reasonable and I don't see any misrepresentation of those past interactions. Statements that Nyttend should be more polite and that both parties should disengage also appear reasonable.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Sorry, dudeman, but the fact is that Orlady has an admitted history of following Doncram's edits and it seems to be continuing even after most Arbs insisted that she back away, based off their interactions since the case closed. Several Arbs went so far during the case as to support an interaction ban between her and Doncram in part because of her conduct towards him. That didn't pass, but even those who didn't support such a restriction said it would be better for Orlady to step away. I think having someone thumped for combative responses to a noticeboard filing is one of the lowest forms of administrative action, especially under these sorts of circumstances. Unfortunately, it was a major oversight that the case did not provide any real procedure for dealing with this kind of conduct from Orlady continuing. What can happen is for this case to simply be declined.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Orlady, Nyttend speedy-deleted content created by Doncram, out-of-process as I recall, and those deletions were overturned at DRV. This much was noted with evidence during the arbitration case where Nyttend was indeed named as a party. How is disclosing all this a "gratuitous personal attack" on Nyttend? Doncram's criticism of Nyttend's tone is also not uncivil. Much of what Doncram said after all that did focus explicitly on the topic under discussion as well. This filing is frivolous.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC) There was an inherently good reason. He was asked to get involved and he stated that he had history with the other party. As far as me bringing it up, it is the substance of your complaint and you explicitly called that comment a "gratuitous personal attack" so there most definitely is good reason to bring it up here. I should also note that Doncram criticizing Nyttend's tone on a matter where he is not involved is no different than you criticizing Doncram's tone here on a matter you are not involved. The only difference being that Doncram was explicitly asked to view and comment in that discussion.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC) @Gato, all Doncram did in this case was comment on Nyttend's conduct towards another editor and disclose facts about their previous interactions, essentially declaring that he was not uninvolved regarding Nyttend. This seems completely acceptable.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Dudemanfellabra I agree with TDA that the comment in question does not require arbitration enforcement. However, the comment Doncram made above may as well be the poster child of not assuming good faith, and it misrepresents Orlady's comment at WT:NRHP. Doncram took a comment about an article and immediately personalized it, apparently feeling like Orlady was calling him stupid for reasons beyond me. Nowhere in Orlady's comment is there anything even remotely directed at any other editors. Orlady has frequently edited at WT:NRHP and more than likely still has the page on her watchlist; that does not mean at all that she followed Doncram there. If Doncram is to be punished for anything, punish him for the comment here, not at EHC's talk.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Nyttend During the arbitration case, I asked that the Doncram not be banned or blocked indefinitely, but that he be placed on an indefinite shoestring restriction so that just one uncivil comment would be grounds for blocking. I hoped that Arbcom would spare Doncram from an indefinite block in a way that would demonstrate basically that he'd had his last chance. If Doncram's refusal here (and elsewhere since the case) to comment on content instead of contributors be insufficient grounds for a substantial block, then perhaps we need a second arbitration case to replace the first one's remedies with ones that will unambiguously place him on a one-more-strike-and-you're-blocked restriction. AE admins who defend Doncram should consider how their comments will aid the case's desired purpose of preventing him from commenting on content and not on contributors. Nyttend (talk) 23:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Orlady edited/edited For the record, my personal world and my Misplaced Pages activity do not revolve around Doncram -- and they never have -- and I am most certainly not following him. Regarding my edits today, note that I am a member of the NRHP WikiProject and I've had that project talk page watchlisted since some time in 2006 or 2007. When "National Register of Historic Places listings in Manassas Park, Virginia" showed up as a new talk page heading, I didn't bother to look at it because I assumed that it was a simple question that another regular would have resolved before I made to the page. When this seemingly minor topic got several comments per hour, I looked to see what the hullabaloo was all about. I read the comments, recalled my earlier involvement with creating Category:National Register of Historic Places in Virginia by city, reviewed the pages in question, and added a comment stating my suggestion of a good way to resolve the contention. There was no call for Doncram (mor anyone else) to receive my comments as a personal insult. Additionally, I have Nyttend's talk page watchlisted. Seeing frequent edits to that page by the user who had opened that Manassas Park discussion, I looked to see what they were discussing. I found an active conversation between two users who disagreed (I wasn't entirely sure what they were talking about), but were exchanging views in a civil fashion and seemed to be coming around to some degree of understanding. Interspersed in the middle of the conversation was a post by Doncram (who apparently had been invited there) in which Doncram indicated which position he agreed with, then launched into a series of statements about Nyttend, saying he was "abrupt and arbitrary-seeming and non-explaining, too much so for good practice dealing with a new-to-this-topic-area contributor," that Nyttend's tone "seems unfriendly, frankly, and I don't like that", that Nyttend "seems to be coming down hard, imposing upon this Talk page rather than discussing in the wt:NRHP discussion that EHC opened helpfully", then adding "Disclosure: Nyttend and I have had numerous disagreements, including a recent arbitration in which we were both named parties. And interactions where Nyttend used administrator tools in actions that were eventually overturned upon appeal." That was a gratuitous personal attack. Because I had seen this same pattern from Doncram repeatedly, often targeted at me, in the years before the Arbcom case and because I believe this kind of behavior is something that Doncram's editor probation was supposed to ameliorate, I am asking that Doncram be admonished. --Orlady (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC) @TDA: There was no good reason for Doncram to rehash his personal bill of particulars against Nyttend on that other user's talk page (and there's certainly no good reason for you to rehash it here). If in the future Doncram is asked to mediate a dispute involving a user (such as Nyttend or me) against whom he holds a grudge that he can't keep himself from rehashing, his best response is something like "Sorry, but it's best if I don't get involved." --Orlady (talk) 02:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC) @Quest for Knowledge: Doncram's long-standing patterns of (1) misperceiving (and then complaining about) comments about content as personal attacks on him and (2) introducing responses to talk-page comments by certain users with announcements about everything he perceives to be wrong with the user were major issues/concerns in the Doncram Arbcom case. His comments about Nyttend are an example of the second of these patterns, and his statements here about me are an example of the first pattern. As one of the other parties to the Arbcom case (and someone who was on the receiving end of these behaviors for going on 6 years now), I supported remedies that would not block Doncram from contributing to Misplaced Pages, but would lead to changes in the behaviors that led to the Arbcom case. This hope for behavior modification is why I would like him to be warned/admonished now. --Orlady (talk) 22:17, 26 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Keithbob I presented evidence in the Doncram ArbCom as an uninvolved and un-named party. My evidence presentation and comments were clearly critical of Doncram's past behavior. However, I find this filing to be premature and don't see a single edit with only a flavor of criticism to be grounds for action, at this time. If Doncram reverts back to even a smaller version of his/her prior style of behavior (and I hope he/she does not) then it will be easy for concerned parties to present here with multiple diffs instead of the rather moderate and singular diff presented at this time. -- — *Keithbob* • Talk • 02:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC) @ Gatoclass. Good point, I would also support a reminder to Doncram and a strong action later on should he/she be back here with multiple legitimate diffs of mis-behavior being presented against them.-- — *Keithbob* • Talk • 20:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge I don't see how the diff presented by Orlady against Doncram is actionable. I could be wrong, but it doesn't come across to me as a gratuitous swipe at/example of trolling an old opponent. The specific ArbCom remedy referenced in this RfE refers to: "Doncram repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum." Only one diff is presented in the RfE so it doesn't appear to be repeated. I'm not even sure if it qualifies as a minor failure, let alone a serious failure. I'm not even sure that this qualifies for a warning. Perhaps a reminder to those involved that Misplaced Pages - despite all its flaws (or perhaps because of them) - is a collaborative, iterative environment that requires all editors to assume good faith and concentrate on content, and not editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC) I'll add that I'm not impressed with Doncram's diff against Orlady where Doncram claims that "slavishly" means "stupid". It could also mean "wrong". Perhaps reminders/warnings to both Doncram and Orlady are in order. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC) . Statement by Mathsci As someone who helped gather diffs in the Doncram case, I am in agreement with Orlady, Nyttend, Keithbob and Gatoclass. Rehashing issues dismissed by arbitrators during the arbcom case is not the way to go. In particular there were no findings in the final decision concerning either Nyttend or Orlady. As others have suggested, Doncram should probably be reminded not to personalise discussions. Mathsci (talk) 19:26, 27 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Doncram This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. The people involved here don't like each other, I get it. But the best thing you all should do is disengage from one another. The reported diff is not actionably disruptive, even if it is not particularly constructive, as is this request and several of the statements here. But AE can't do much to help you tolerate each other. Sandstein 04:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC) Agree with Sandstein. As personal attacks go, these are not very impressive. Doncram presents as evidence this comment by Orlady: "..a bunch of formatted lists that are slavishly tied to jurisdictional boundaries,.." Orlady was criticizing a certain method for formatting lists. Any personalization of this comment is surely in the eye of the beholder. EdJohnston (talk) 23:22, 24 May 2013 (UTC) Though I haven't seen the conversation that preceded the discussion on Emmette's talk page, doncram's post looks to me like a gratuitous swipe at/example of trolling an old opponent, and I really can't see any excuse for this sort of commentary particularly when he was specifically warned by Sandstein to avoid commenting on contributor quite recently. While minor breaches of WP:CIV can be overlooked, I think at least some sort of corrective action is appropriate for chronic offenders, such as week-long blocks. We can probably overlook this particular breach as an isolated example, but doncram should understand that he risks sanctions for ongoing conduct of this nature, in which case I would suggest he receive at least a reminder or warning on this occasion. Gatoclass (talk) 12:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC) No objection. Sandstein 10:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC) Okay, I will close this with a reminder. Gatoclass (talk) 10:19, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Doncram reminded to avoid commenting on contributors. Gatoclass (talk) 10:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Doncram

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Orlady (talk) 20:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#General editor probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

This edit is an instance of a type of behavior that was at issue in the Arbcom case. Specifically, Doncram is personalizing a content discussion and is turning it into a low-grade personal attack by publicly disparaging another party to the Arbcom case (i.e., User:Nyttend) by telling another user about his perceptions of Nyttend's faults and past misdemeanors. Consistent with the "General editor probation" remedy, I believe that Doncram should be warned about this personal-attack behavior and that he should be required to edit his comments to remove the personal attacks.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Due to my past history with Doncram, I am unable to communicate with him about this sort of matter.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notification of user

Discussion concerning Doncram

Statement by Doncram

Orlady in this diff a short while ago followed me to the wt:NRHP talk page, with sarcasm that I and other NRHP editors are “slavish” and implied stupid. I was pretty much decided not to reply there, as I suspected it was pot-stirring. I suspected that Orlady had followed my edits and found that disagreeable exchange with/about Nyttend and I suspected that Orlady was trying to bait me to respond by butting in at wt:NRHP. Orlady bringing this enforcement action now tends to support my suspicion. --do ncr am 21:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC) And, Orlady has previously contrived to find excuse to post at my Talk page, which Orlady has just now done with statement of "regret". In the arbitration others offered to take care of any necessary postings at my Talk page, if something was so imperative. I don't see how it helps develop wikipedia for this to continue. --do ncr am 21:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

I see no evidence of misconduct here whatsoever. Disclosing to an editor who apparently asked for Doncram's comment that he has had past interactions with Nyttend seems more than reasonable and I don't see any misrepresentation of those past interactions. Statements that Nyttend should be more polite and that both parties should disengage also appear reasonable.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, dudeman, but the fact is that Orlady has an admitted history of following Doncram's edits and it seems to be continuing even after most Arbs insisted that she back away, based off their interactions since the case closed. Several Arbs went so far during the case as to support an interaction ban between her and Doncram in part because of her conduct towards him. That didn't pass, but even those who didn't support such a restriction said it would be better for Orlady to step away. I think having someone thumped for combative responses to a noticeboard filing is one of the lowest forms of administrative action, especially under these sorts of circumstances. Unfortunately, it was a major oversight that the case did not provide any real procedure for dealing with this kind of conduct from Orlady continuing. What can happen is for this case to simply be declined.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Orlady, Nyttend speedy-deleted content created by Doncram, out-of-process as I recall, and those deletions were overturned at DRV. This much was noted with evidence during the arbitration case where Nyttend was indeed named as a party. How is disclosing all this a "gratuitous personal attack" on Nyttend? Doncram's criticism of Nyttend's tone is also not uncivil. Much of what Doncram said after all that did focus explicitly on the topic under discussion as well. This filing is frivolous.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

There was an inherently good reason. He was asked to get involved and he stated that he had history with the other party. As far as me bringing it up, it is the substance of your complaint and you explicitly called that comment a "gratuitous personal attack" so there most definitely is good reason to bring it up here. I should also note that Doncram criticizing Nyttend's tone on a matter where he is not involved is no different than you criticizing Doncram's tone here on a matter you are not involved. The only difference being that Doncram was explicitly asked to view and comment in that discussion.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@Gato, all Doncram did in this case was comment on Nyttend's conduct towards another editor and disclose facts about their previous interactions, essentially declaring that he was not uninvolved regarding Nyttend. This seems completely acceptable.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Dudemanfellabra

I agree with TDA that the comment in question does not require arbitration enforcement. However, the comment Doncram made above may as well be the poster child of not assuming good faith, and it misrepresents Orlady's comment at WT:NRHP. Doncram took a comment about an article and immediately personalized it, apparently feeling like Orlady was calling him stupid for reasons beyond me. Nowhere in Orlady's comment is there anything even remotely directed at any other editors. Orlady has frequently edited at WT:NRHP and more than likely still has the page on her watchlist; that does not mean at all that she followed Doncram there. If Doncram is to be punished for anything, punish him for the comment here, not at EHC's talk.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Nyttend

During the arbitration case, I asked that the Doncram not be banned or blocked indefinitely, but that he be placed on an indefinite shoestring restriction so that just one uncivil comment would be grounds for blocking. I hoped that Arbcom would spare Doncram from an indefinite block in a way that would demonstrate basically that he'd had his last chance. If Doncram's refusal here (and elsewhere since the case) to comment on content instead of contributors be insufficient grounds for a substantial block, then perhaps we need a second arbitration case to replace the first one's remedies with ones that will unambiguously place him on a one-more-strike-and-you're-blocked restriction. AE admins who defend Doncram should consider how their comments will aid the case's desired purpose of preventing him from commenting on content and not on contributors. Nyttend (talk) 23:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Orlady

edited/edited For the record, my personal world and my Misplaced Pages activity do not revolve around Doncram -- and they never have -- and I am most certainly not following him. Regarding my edits today, note that I am a member of the NRHP WikiProject and I've had that project talk page watchlisted since some time in 2006 or 2007. When "National Register of Historic Places listings in Manassas Park, Virginia" showed up as a new talk page heading, I didn't bother to look at it because I assumed that it was a simple question that another regular would have resolved before I made to the page. When this seemingly minor topic got several comments per hour, I looked to see what the hullabaloo was all about. I read the comments, recalled my earlier involvement with creating Category:National Register of Historic Places in Virginia by city, reviewed the pages in question, and added a comment stating my suggestion of a good way to resolve the contention. There was no call for Doncram (mor anyone else) to receive my comments as a personal insult. Additionally, I have Nyttend's talk page watchlisted. Seeing frequent edits to that page by the user who had opened that Manassas Park discussion, I looked to see what they were discussing. I found an active conversation between two users who disagreed (I wasn't entirely sure what they were talking about), but were exchanging views in a civil fashion and seemed to be coming around to some degree of understanding. Interspersed in the middle of the conversation was a post by Doncram (who apparently had been invited there) in which Doncram indicated which position he agreed with, then launched into a series of statements about Nyttend, saying he was "abrupt and arbitrary-seeming and non-explaining, too much so for good practice dealing with a new-to-this-topic-area contributor," that Nyttend's tone "seems unfriendly, frankly, and I don't like that", that Nyttend "seems to be coming down hard, imposing upon this Talk page rather than discussing in the wt:NRHP discussion that EHC opened helpfully", then adding "Disclosure: Nyttend and I have had numerous disagreements, including a recent arbitration in which we were both named parties. And interactions where Nyttend used administrator tools in actions that were eventually overturned upon appeal." That was a gratuitous personal attack. Because I had seen this same pattern from Doncram repeatedly, often targeted at me, in the years before the Arbcom case and because I believe this kind of behavior is something that Doncram's editor probation was supposed to ameliorate, I am asking that Doncram be admonished. --Orlady (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

@TDA: There was no good reason for Doncram to rehash his personal bill of particulars against Nyttend on that other user's talk page (and there's certainly no good reason for you to rehash it here). If in the future Doncram is asked to mediate a dispute involving a user (such as Nyttend or me) against whom he holds a grudge that he can't keep himself from rehashing, his best response is something like "Sorry, but it's best if I don't get involved." --Orlady (talk) 02:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@Quest for Knowledge: Doncram's long-standing patterns of (1) misperceiving (and then complaining about) comments about content as personal attacks on him and (2) introducing responses to talk-page comments by certain users with announcements about everything he perceives to be wrong with the user were major issues/concerns in the Doncram Arbcom case. His comments about Nyttend are an example of the second of these patterns, and his statements here about me are an example of the first pattern. As one of the other parties to the Arbcom case (and someone who was on the receiving end of these behaviors for going on 6 years now), I supported remedies that would not block Doncram from contributing to Misplaced Pages, but would lead to changes in the behaviors that led to the Arbcom case. This hope for behavior modification is why I would like him to be warned/admonished now. --Orlady (talk) 22:17, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Keithbob

I presented evidence in the Doncram ArbCom as an uninvolved and un-named party. My evidence presentation and comments were clearly critical of Doncram's past behavior. However, I find this filing to be premature and don't see a single edit with only a flavor of criticism to be grounds for action, at this time. If Doncram reverts back to even a smaller version of his/her prior style of behavior (and I hope he/she does not) then it will be easy for concerned parties to present here with multiple diffs instead of the rather moderate and singular diff presented at this time. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 02:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

@ Gatoclass. Good point, I would also support a reminder to Doncram and a strong action later on should he/she be back here with multiple legitimate diffs of mis-behavior being presented against them.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

I don't see how the diff presented by Orlady against Doncram is actionable. I could be wrong, but it doesn't come across to me as a gratuitous swipe at/example of trolling an old opponent. The specific ArbCom remedy referenced in this RfE refers to: "Doncram repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum." Only one diff is presented in the RfE so it doesn't appear to be repeated. I'm not even sure if it qualifies as a minor failure, let alone a serious failure. I'm not even sure that this qualifies for a warning. Perhaps a reminder to those involved that Misplaced Pages - despite all its flaws (or perhaps because of them) - is a collaborative, iterative environment that requires all editors to assume good faith and concentrate on content, and not editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll add that I'm not impressed with Doncram's diff against Orlady where Doncram claims that "slavishly" means "stupid". It could also mean "wrong". Perhaps reminders/warnings to both Doncram and Orlady are in order. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Mathsci

As someone who helped gather diffs in the Doncram case, I am in agreement with Orlady, Nyttend, Keithbob and Gatoclass. Rehashing issues dismissed by arbitrators during the arbcom case is not the way to go. In particular there were no findings in the final decision concerning either Nyttend or Orlady. As others have suggested, Doncram should probably be reminded not to personalise discussions. Mathsci (talk) 19:26, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Doncram

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The people involved here don't like each other, I get it. But the best thing you all should do is disengage from one another. The reported diff is not actionably disruptive, even if it is not particularly constructive, as is this request and several of the statements here. But AE can't do much to help you tolerate each other. Sandstein 04:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Sandstein. As personal attacks go, these are not very impressive. Doncram presents as evidence this comment by Orlady: "..a bunch of formatted lists that are slavishly tied to jurisdictional boundaries,.." Orlady was criticizing a certain method for formatting lists. Any personalization of this comment is surely in the eye of the beholder. EdJohnston (talk) 23:22, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Though I haven't seen the conversation that preceded the discussion on Emmette's talk page, doncram's post looks to me like a gratuitous swipe at/example of trolling an old opponent, and I really can't see any excuse for this sort of commentary particularly when he was specifically warned by Sandstein to avoid commenting on contributor quite recently. While minor breaches of WP:CIV can be overlooked, I think at least some sort of corrective action is appropriate for chronic offenders, such as week-long blocks. We can probably overlook this particular breach as an isolated example, but doncram should understand that he risks sanctions for ongoing conduct of this nature, in which case I would suggest he receive at least a reminder or warning on this occasion. Gatoclass (talk) 12:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

No objection. Sandstein 10:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I will close this with a reminder. Gatoclass (talk) 10:19, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

IranitGreenberg

IranitGreenberg is warned not to edit further on the topics named in this complaint, since she is banned from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. EdJohnston (talk) 02:50, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning IranitGreenberg User who is submitting this request for enforcement Sean.hoyland - talk 14:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested IranitGreenberg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy to be enforced The editor is currently "banned from the topic of the Israeli-Arab conflict for three months". User_talk:IranitGreenberg#Complaint_about_your_edits_at_WP:AN3 Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_IranitGreenberg Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it see below Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) Additional comments by editor filing complaint Could someone explain the scope of the topic ban to IranitGreenberg please ? I'm not sure it's clear to them. Looking at their post-ban edits (see Special:Contributions/IranitGreenberg from 2013-05-25T21:18:14), some of them may be topic ban violations. For example Does the scope include subjects like the Israel–Iran proxy conflict or Iran–Israel relations ? Is this edit a violation because it mentions "the creation of a Palestinian state" ? Is this edit a violation because it was a Lebanese rocket attack on Israel ? I'm not suggesting any sanction, only clarification. Sean.hoyland - talk 14:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC) The editor is continuing to violate their topic ban () despite the information they have received here. They may not be capable of stopping by themselves. If anyone considers a temporary block to get their attention or an indef ban, perhaps the editor should be asked to explicitly agree to not use sockpuppetry under any circumstances or in any form. A previous topic ban/block of an editor like IranitGreenberg in many ways (i.e. AndresHerutJaim) resulted in the editor becoming a prolific sockpuppeteer which has caused disruption and wasted resources (and this edit is probably by their latest sock). Sean.hoyland - talk 05:44, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning IranitGreenberg Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by IranitGreenberg I thought that Israel conflict with Iran wasn't part of the Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but if I'm wrong, I'll stop editing there. Regarding Naftali Bennett, I thought I could edit because he's an Israeli politician (not related per se to such conflict), but since I edited something related to Palestine, perhaps I made a mistake (it wasn't on purpose). It won't happen again.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 14:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC) I want to make clear I also edited Israel Defense Forces. But only related to foreign suppliers, not the conflict, Arabs or Palestinians.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 20:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC) @EdJohnston: I realized editing Naftali Bennett was a bad idea. It falls under topic-ban and I'm sorry. However, I don't see the connection with Iran (it's not an Arab country nor part of this conflict). Anyway, if an administrator tells me Iran articles are related to I/P, I'll stop editing there too.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning IranitGreenberg This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Agree with this complaint. In the past, we have sometimes encouraged editors who are working under an I/P topic ban to edit Israeli topics that have nothing to do with the conflict. Naftali Bennett is connected to Israeli settlements on the West Bank and he opposes the creation of a Palestinian state so he's not a good choice. Also, there was a previous case at AE where someone was editing about Iran-Israel relations. Iran's government refers to Israel as 'the Zionist entity'. I would interpret an I/P topic ban as excluding all of the edits and topics listed by Sean.hoyland in this complaint. EdJohnston (talk) 19:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC) Agree with Ed. This is clearly a ban violation. I'd be ok with a final warning here, unless there is mor evidence of "line-stepping"--Cailil 22:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC) I agree with that these violated the topic ban but that a final warning is adequate. IranitGreenberg, the point of a topic ban is that you take a full and complete break from the topic area, and develop editing skills while working on very different subjects. Do you have some other interests? How about sports, birds, bugs, plants, cars? Go and edit on those subjects and leave anything that could even potentially have links to the I/P conflict behind you. Editing on the fringes of the topic ban will only lead to problems for you, I can absolutely guarantee it.Slp1 (talk) 16:59, 28 May 2013 (UTC) Closing. IranitGreenberg is warned to be more careful in observing her I/P topic ban, which includes everything listed above by Sean.hoyland. EdJohnston (talk) 02:47, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

IranitGreenberg is warned not to edit further on the topics named in this complaint, since she is banned from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. EdJohnston (talk) 02:50, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning IranitGreenberg

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Sean.hoyland - talk 14:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: IranitGreenberg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

The editor is currently "banned from the topic of the Israeli-Arab conflict for three months".

User_talk:IranitGreenberg#Complaint_about_your_edits_at_WP:AN3
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_IranitGreenberg

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

see below

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Could someone explain the scope of the topic ban to IranitGreenberg please ? I'm not sure it's clear to them. Looking at their post-ban edits (see Special:Contributions/IranitGreenberg from 2013-05-25T21:18:14), some of them may be topic ban violations. For example

Does the scope include subjects like the Israel–Iran proxy conflict or Iran–Israel relations ?
Is this edit a violation because it mentions "the creation of a Palestinian state" ?
Is this edit a violation because it was a Lebanese rocket attack on Israel ?

I'm not suggesting any sanction, only clarification. Sean.hoyland - talk 14:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The editor is continuing to violate their topic ban () despite the information they have received here. They may not be capable of stopping by themselves. If anyone considers a temporary block to get their attention or an indef ban, perhaps the editor should be asked to explicitly agree to not use sockpuppetry under any circumstances or in any form. A previous topic ban/block of an editor like IranitGreenberg in many ways (i.e. AndresHerutJaim) resulted in the editor becoming a prolific sockpuppeteer which has caused disruption and wasted resources (and this edit is probably by their latest sock). Sean.hoyland - talk 05:44, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning IranitGreenberg

Statement by IranitGreenberg

I thought that Israel conflict with Iran wasn't part of the Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but if I'm wrong, I'll stop editing there. Regarding Naftali Bennett, I thought I could edit because he's an Israeli politician (not related per se to such conflict), but since I edited something related to Palestine, perhaps I made a mistake (it wasn't on purpose). It won't happen again.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 14:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I want to make clear I also edited Israel Defense Forces. But only related to foreign suppliers, not the conflict, Arabs or Palestinians.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 20:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: I realized editing Naftali Bennett was a bad idea. It falls under topic-ban and I'm sorry. However, I don't see the connection with Iran (it's not an Arab country nor part of this conflict). Anyway, if an administrator tells me Iran articles are related to I/P, I'll stop editing there too.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning IranitGreenberg

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Agree with this complaint. In the past, we have sometimes encouraged editors who are working under an I/P topic ban to edit Israeli topics that have nothing to do with the conflict. Naftali Bennett is connected to Israeli settlements on the West Bank and he opposes the creation of a Palestinian state so he's not a good choice. Also, there was a previous case at AE where someone was editing about Iran-Israel relations. Iran's government refers to Israel as 'the Zionist entity'. I would interpret an I/P topic ban as excluding *all* of the edits and topics listed by Sean.hoyland in this complaint. EdJohnston (talk) 19:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Ed. This is clearly a ban violation. I'd be ok with a final warning here, unless there is mor evidence of "line-stepping"--Cailil 22:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that these violated the topic ban but that a final warning is adequate. IranitGreenberg, the point of a topic ban is that you take a full and complete break from the topic area, and develop editing skills while working on very different subjects. Do you have some other interests? How about sports, birds, bugs, plants, cars? Go and edit on those subjects and leave anything that could even potentially have links to the I/P conflict behind you. Editing on the fringes of the topic ban will only lead to problems for you, I can absolutely guarantee it.Slp1 (talk) 16:59, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Closing. IranitGreenberg is warned to be more careful in observing her I/P topic ban, which includes everything listed above by Sean.hoyland. EdJohnston (talk) 02:47, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Soosim

Soosim (editing under any account or IP address) is indefinitely topic-banned (WP:TBAN) from everything related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sandstein 20:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Soosim User who is submitting this request for enforcement Nomoskedasticity (talk) 04:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Soosim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy to be enforced Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#PRINCIPLES and Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Standard discretionary sanctions, specifically a topic ban minimally applying to NGO Monitor, Gerald M. Steinberg, any other edit that involves or mentions that organisation or Steinberg as its director, and any organisation that NGO Monitor "monitors", e.g. B'Tselem, New Israel Fund, Human Rights Watch. Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it As per discussion at this COIN section (and especially the subsection), Soosim is now known to have been violating WP:COI in a blatant way in the I/P topic area: he is a paid staff member of NGO Monitor, as per his on-wiki self-identification, and his primary activities on Misplaced Pages involve editing NGO Monitor and adding that organisation's criticism of other parties to the articles on those parties. Examples: Editing NGO Monitor: , ; it's worth seeing the history of NGO Monitor to see the extent of his involvement there, and at Gerald M. Steinberg (history), its director. Adding critical NGO-Monitor material to articles about other organisations: , , Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) Warned on 13 December 2011 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs) Additional comments by editor filing complaint The examples given just above really are just examples -- one can find many hundreds of edits like them in Soosim's list of contributions. Since Soosim now wants to give the impression that everything he has done has been "responsible and within wiki rules", I'll make explicit what is surely obvious to most. NGO Monitor has a media strategy and Soosim/Draiman is a paid staff member responsible for implementing it. That strategy has a few basic components: 1) issue a press release with sound-bites from Steinberg; 2) newspaper swallows some of it whole; 3) Soosim/Draiman adds the sound-bite to a corresponding Misplaced Pages article. Editing Misplaced Pages in that mode -- particularly without disclosing the COI -- is an abuse of Misplaced Pages, end of story. Soosim/Draiman might deny that this is what he does, but if so then he doesn't deserve his salary. As for "Nomo is abusive": I have indeed been calling Soosim a "pov pusher" for several months now -- only I didn't realize quite how right I was. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC) On "PLO supporter": here is a diff showing Soosim restoring that passage after someone else had deleted it. Soosim didn't remove it (as he claims below) -- on the contrary, he put it back, and there is no diff in which he is seen removing it. There are a few claims of that sort below where diffs are lacking -- and it's not hard to see why. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC) My attention has been drawn to a description of a talk that Draiman gave last year -- recruiting "pro-Israel" editors for the "wiki wars". I suppose we all knew that the CAMERA incident would be repeated. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC) Question: In view of Slp1's proposed restriction re new accounts: would it make sense to do a CU check for any other matching accounts that might already have been created? If the CU check already performed was intended only to look for a match between Soosim and Scarletfire, perhaps it should be extended to look for "sleepers". I'll admit to not really understanding how all of this works, so perhaps it's not necessary -- just a suggestion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 05:34, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Since lack of transparency is a core issue here, it is more than a little ridiculous that Soosim wants to clear things up via off-wiki contact. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:13, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning Soosim Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Soosim I have been following all the comments here, at the coi board, and the sockpuppet board. if I may: a) I have never been involved with anything relating to any sock puppet or meat puppet. I was very happy to see scarletfire join in, but it is the same as for bus stop, ghcoold, plot spoiler, gilabrand, etc and I'm a pretty sure it is not my wife or kids. so, if someone can give me more details, I will try to sort it out. but no, I don't do that, and wouldn't do that. b) all edits were my own. always have been, and always will be. I never discussed or approved any edit with anyone beforehand. all edits were RS and always agreed upon - maybe after fighting with various editors but never vandalism or disruptive. it is clear to me that it is very much pov and not coi. c) nomo has always been abusive to me. I have mentioned that many times to him and to others. I think his intentions are not pure. also, malik, dlv, sean, etc have always been watching me. they have said so. sean has been watching for 3+ years. Nothing was ever snuck in - all done above board, with edit summaries, with discussion when needed, etc. (nomo has already started to look for edits to remove even though the edits are RS and non-controversial: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Medical_Aid_for_Palestinians&oldid=557289438&diff=prev and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ir_Amim&oldid=557288742&diff=prev and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=New_Israel_Fund&curid=2343447&diff=557291079&oldid=550308939 and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=B%27Tselem&curid=38573522&diff=557290974&oldid=554997435 and more d) I will also say that many editors have jumped to conclusions which are not correct, or even remotely correct. and I think many statements on this page and the coi page have been made which are not based on fact - mostly innuendo, association, over-emotional responses, etc. (one example here is 'edits made during work hours' - I happen to work from home, am a consultant, travel around quite a bit doing my consulting, etc.) e) and as I said earlier - all edits were responsible, within wiki rules, discussed, etc. many edits were removed, reverted edited by others. no problem. I have cooperated with any editor on any talk page who engaged in a discussion. a most recent example was the nomo/rastiniak/goldblum outrage that incorrectly assumed I wanted to label goldblum as a plo supporter, based on an available RS. within minutes of someone saying that, I removed it. just one example of many many many over the years. f) and, if I may, perhaps to make it more clear: the I/P conflict area is not one where you can get away with self-promotion, peacock, advertising, etc. and, not to be too repetitive, but wiki is indeed an online encyclopedia, and that npov prevails. that is what I strive for. showing both sides of any discussion, conflict, etc. (again, just look at the many edits nomo is making now, removing any chance for npov. compare and contrast, please....) thanks. Statement by (username) ~~I may be mussing something, but who does he identify himself as?~~, found it.Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Peter cohen Quoting our article on Soosim's employer it is an organization "whose stated aim is to generate and distribute critical analysis and reports on the output of the international NGO community for the benefit of government policy makers, journalists, philanthropic organizations, and the general public." Soosim's role is described by his employer as one of "Online Communications". His contributions are spread through the week (apart from Saturday daytimes) but a substantial number of edits take place during normal office hours. There is no reason to doubt that much of his editing of Misplaced Pages was done as a paid contributor pushing the propaganda line of his employers.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC) I find the following in the link that Nomo has just inserted particularly interesting "Arnie spoke about the battle for objectivity on Misplaced Pages. He spends about an hour a day making sure that facts are checked and verified on the online encyclopedia and that anti-Israel bias is not allowed to stand. He encourages all pro-Israel advocates to join the “wiki war.”" Anyone who is really interested in building an unbiased encyclopaedia should not be inviting pro-anything advocates to join a "war" on the encyclopaedia. His role is quite clearly that of a propagandist and the reference to objectivity is just the usual partisan attitude of campaigners who always believe that the media are biased against them and nothing is objective unless it agrees with them. Note he commented on the blog post and thanked the author for the shout out without any indication that he considered anything said other than an accurate representation of what he said in the reported meeting. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by רסטיניאק NGO Monitor is Gerald Steinberg and Steinberg is NGO Monitor. There is no LTD there. Steinberg initiated his monitor and calls himself its "president". No action in NGO Monitor can be performed without his order, involvement or agreement. That includes all the edits of Soosim. Therefore, in addition to discussing Soosim there is a need to deal with a whole range of wikipedia activities of NGO Monitor directed by Gerald Steinberg that should be examined, mostly executed by Soosim during the last years since he began editing on wikipedia. They may have had someone else before Soosim to promote their activities and to defame liberal, human rights and Peace NGOs. I would go further than Peter cohen in characterizing the activities of NGO Monitor based on their own words. The main activities of NGO Monitor are geared to harm those organization by aiming at their contributors and supporters, and pushing for legal actions in Israel to block funding from European countries and the EU to Israeli human rights NGOs. There is more on WP:COIN part 8.רסטיניאק (talk) 22:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק Just stick to the facts please and not wild speculation to promote your own agenda. Plot Spoiler (talk) 03:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC) Thanks Plot Spoiler, but this is not my agenda. This is of general interest to WP. It should have been yours as well. I have just pointed out that Soosim is not operating as an "independent" agent, but is directed by his boss Steinberg who is NGO Monitor. Is that what you call wild speculation ? All of Soosim's editings prove that. I am quite surprised to read Soosim's statement here as well as what he wrote on WP:COIN just 3 days ago : about three years ago, i came across an article that steinberg wrote, i liked it and follow him and his work closely. Interesting way to avoid writing "I work for him and promote him, his ideas, his political fights, and his organization".רסטיניאק (talk) 07:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק Statement by Zero0000 (Disclosure: As someone once lied about in print by Gerald Steinberg, I'm somewhat ill-disposed towards his organization.) Regardless of what Soosim's job description is, for someone to devote themselves so consistently to promoting the viewpoint of a particular rather extreme activist organization is a violation of the core policy WP:NPOV and should not be allowed. Zero 10:56, 29 May 2013 (UTC) Zero0000—the Israeli–Palestinian conflict tends to generate supporters with passions on opposing sides. Unless reliably sourced, no piece information is allowed to stay in an article on any topic relating to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. It is unlikely that User:Soosim promotes anyone else's ideas. Bus stop (talk) 11:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC) POV-pushing is against the rules, no question. WP:NPOV is an obligation on every editor. It is not a defence to note that other editors push other opinions. Material has to be selected in a neutral manner, not merely be sourcable. Zero 11:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by The Devil's Advocate I should note that Arbitrator User:Newyorkbrad made a recent addition to BLP covering this sort of conduct. While Soosim's position at NGO Monitor certainly impacts his editing on various people criticized by that group in connection with the Arab-Israeli conflict such as Goldblum, it also seems to extend to areas where the ARBPIA connection is not so explicit as with this edit targeting Sarah Leah Whitson, another target of NGO Monitor. Granted, there is an Israeli connection to the criticism of Whitson, but it is not explicit in the Libya edit. Administrators here should consider invoking WP:BLPSE while they are reviewing this case or construing the topic ban in such a way that there can't be any indirect pro-Israeli POV-pushing.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:16, 29 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Bus stop I hardly consider posts such as this and this to represent proper use of Talk page space. I think the editor making those posts, User:רסטיניאק, should remove them. The sentiments expressed in those posts should be disregarded unless expressed in a proper forum, such as this thread that we are in here. Bus stop (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2013 (UTC) Biased editing is not unheard of concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. I think User:Soosim approximately represents their own perception of events not unlike most editors involved in this area of editing. That they were associated with an organization representing their own vews is hardly surprising. No one is going to associate with an organization representing views diametrically opposed to their own. There is a dearth of evidence of edits made without the support of proper sourcing. I don't think the charges of "POV pushing" and failure to uphold WP:NPOV are as substantial as they sound. There are many eyes on the articles falling under the heading of "Israeli–Palestinian conflict". Judging by the grievances expressed on this page one would get the impression User:Soosim did identifiable damage to the project. If that were the case, would there not be edits that have to be undone? There are many eyes on the articles under discussion. More importantly the "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" is an area of unusually high contention. Sources are the mainstay of the project. I am assuming User:Soosim operated within that which was supported by sources because no one is bringing evidence of improper edits. Do we find damaging edits that now have to be undone? Bus stop (talk) 04:08, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Neby Soosim edited rarely and sporadically until May 2010 when he began to focus on Human Rights Watch and other subjects of NGO Monitor's concerns. In August - September 2010 he was added to the staff page of NGO Monitor's website . This does suggest that he took up a post at NGO Monitor in May 2010 and was added to the staff page after completing a term of probation, and that his editing of articles relating to NGO Monitor's concerns was the product of his position at NGO Monitor and not a mere coincidence of interests. NebY (talk) 11:00, 30 May 2013 (UTC) There is nothing surprising about gravitating to an organization that holds the same understanding that one has of world events. I think this was an innocent coincidence of two pursuits: the individual took up a position at an organization of likeminded individuals. At the same time the individual edited Misplaced Pages. Barely any attempt was made to conceal that. We all edit in our area of competence and/or interest. All that I see transpiring here is the squashing of one individual's passion for editing in the highly contentious area of the "Israeli–Palestinian conflict." My recommendation is that a warning should be given concerning our important policy of WP:NPOV. I think it should be clear by now that WP:Conflict of interest is a policy that is applicable here but that of course should be be reiterated. Beyond that I see no reason for the indefinite I/P (Israeli/Palestinian) topic ban being suggested by administrators below. Obviously increased scrutiny of User:Soosim's future edits will follow this episode. But beyond that I think the individual's voice is as valid and competent as anyone else's and consequently should be allowed to flourish at this project. Material added by User:Soosim was accompanied by supporting sources. WP:NPOV is achieved by the presentation of balancing material. It is wrongheaded to eliminate from the equation an individual who happens to have interests outside of Misplaced Pages that coincide with their interests on Misplaced Pages. It has not been shown that activities on Misplaced Pages were for personal material gain. The area of the "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" is merely an area of passionate personal interest not unlike the passions and interests brought to this area of editing by many other editors. Bus stop (talk) 11:51, 30 May 2013 (UTC) It seems that Bus stop did not realize the problem that was raised by NebY so here is a clarification: Soosim started editing on WP in March 2008 and has not edited articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict until more than two years later, in May 2010, when he started working for NGO Monitor. Even then, he did not develop a special taste for subjects and issues, but followed very tightly the line of Steinberg and NGO Monitor, simply promoting both of them and attacking their NGO rivals. There is an enormous wide range of possibilities to edit articles in the I/P "area" but Soosim became "His Masters Voice" on each and every subject he edited. Therefore, the argument of Bus_Stop is not valid ("the individual took up a position at an organization of likeminded individuals"). During his initial two+ years on WP, Soosim has shown his ability to edit on other issues, which is probably what should be demanded of him now. I have my doubts about the innocence of some of those edits, as some are clearly for self promotion . The other argument of Bus_Stop, that Soosim used "supporting sources" speaks for itself. Bus-Stop does not suggest that those were RS, or that Soosim's sources were not extremely distorting, because if he had suggested that, this would open a Pandora box of evidence against Soosim. BTW, family promotion by Soosim is prominent in recent edits and so it is quite clear that Soosim could and should direct his efforts in subjects out of I/P. רסטיניאק (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק (ec...mv comment, modified at 13:05, 30 May 2013 (UTC)) Evidence ~~indicates~~ suggests that it is not a mere coincidence of interests. For a specific example of ~~the~~ a sequence of events that resemble an organized NGO Monitor advocacy workflow see Dlv999's data at Talk:NGO_Monitor#A_WP:COIN_discussion_about_this_page_and_others regarding Joel Peters. I've copied the relevant part below from Dlv999's comment. On March 17 2013 I added some description of NGO Monitor's activities from a published work by the scholar Joel Peters to this article The very next day, March 18, an open letter by Gerald Steinburg, to Joel Peters appears on the NGO-Monitor website challenging Joel Peters, and referencing this Misplaced Pages page's citation of Peter's work. ("We note that your false allegations in this book have been copied onto the NGO Monitor wikipedia entry, thus further falsifying the record.") Subsequently, the Steinburg response to Joel Peters and Misplaced Pages citation of the same is dutifully uploaded to our article Sean.hoyland - talk 12:02, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Result concerning Soosim This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Administrators processing this request should take into account Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Soosim. T. Canens (talk) 04:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC) I assume that T. Canens may not be free to tell us more, but it looks like there is enough here to justify an indefinite I/P topic ban for User:Soosim. This is for POV-pushing combined with the coyness about his connection to NGO Monitor, and his abuse of multiple accounts. EdJohnston (talk) 03:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC) Agree with Ed. Enuff already. Killer Chihuahua 11:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC) I'd agree also to an indefinite IP topic ban. I'd add anything related to NGO Monitor, Gerald Steiberg etc whether or not it is I/P related. Soosim's explanation above does not address the key point here: that aggresively pushing a POV with an undisclosed COI is beyond the pale. To say nothing of hypocricy saying this at his COIN complaint re Goldblum: "I had asked to please first discuss any edit (except for obvious vandalism, etc as per wiki coi) on the talk page" while doing precisely the opposite himself. In view of the deception and the abuse of multiple accounts I also suggest restricting him to the Soosim account officially. I haven't seen it done before at AE before, but discretionary sanctions say that we can impose "any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." Given the high rates of sockpuppetry on IP pages in particular, it might be best to start being upfront and clear about the fact that simply starting up another account isn't an option.Slp1 (talk) 23:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC) I concur with and impose the topic ban, for abusing multiple accounts to edit in the topic area, and promoting their own organization (e.g., ) in violation of WP:COI. There's also likely persistent one-sided editing (making changes only or predominantly in favor of the position of one side of the conflict), in violation of WP:NPOV. Because the topic ban applies to the person and all their accounts, a one-account restriction does not appear to add anything of substance to me, but others are free to impose it. I am also, as a normal administrator action, indefinitely blocking Soosim for the abuse of multiple accounts. So closed, Sandstein 20:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Soosim (editing under any account or IP address) is indefinitely topic-banned (WP:TBAN) from everything related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sandstein 20:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Soosim

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Nomoskedasticity (talk) 04:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Soosim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#PRINCIPLES and Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Standard discretionary sanctions, specifically a topic ban minimally applying to NGO Monitor, Gerald M. Steinberg, any other edit that involves or mentions that organisation or Steinberg as its director, and any organisation that NGO Monitor "monitors", e.g. B'Tselem, New Israel Fund, Human Rights Watch.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

As per discussion at this COIN section (and especially the subsection), Soosim is now known to have been violating WP:COI in a blatant way in the I/P topic area: he is a paid staff member of NGO Monitor, as per his on-wiki self-identification, and his primary activities on Misplaced Pages involve editing NGO Monitor and adding that organisation's criticism of other parties to the articles on those parties. Examples:

Editing NGO Monitor: , ; it's worth seeing the history of NGO Monitor to see the extent of his involvement there, and at Gerald M. Steinberg (history), its director.
Adding critical NGO-Monitor material to articles about other organisations: , ,

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warned on 13 December 2011 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The examples given just above really are just examples -- one can find many hundreds of edits like them in Soosim's list of contributions.
Since Soosim now wants to give the impression that everything he has done has been "responsible and within wiki rules", I'll make explicit what is surely obvious to most. NGO Monitor has a media strategy and Soosim/Draiman is a paid staff member responsible for implementing it. That strategy has a few basic components: 1) issue a press release with sound-bites from Steinberg; 2) newspaper swallows some of it whole; 3) Soosim/Draiman adds the sound-bite to a corresponding Misplaced Pages article. Editing Misplaced Pages in that mode -- particularly without disclosing the COI -- is an abuse of Misplaced Pages, end of story. Soosim/Draiman might deny that this is what he does, but if so then he doesn't deserve his salary. As for "Nomo is abusive": I have indeed been calling Soosim a "pov pusher" for several months now -- only I didn't realize quite how right I was. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
On "PLO supporter": here is a diff showing Soosim restoring that passage after someone else had deleted it. Soosim didn't remove it (as he claims below) -- on the contrary, he put it back, and there is no diff in which he is seen removing it. There are a few claims of that sort below where diffs are lacking -- and it's not hard to see why. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
My attention has been drawn to a description of a talk that Draiman gave last year -- recruiting "pro-Israel" editors for the "wiki wars". I suppose we all knew that the CAMERA incident would be repeated. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Question: In view of Slp1's proposed restriction re new accounts: would it make sense to do a CU check for any other matching accounts that might already have been created? If the CU check already performed was intended only to look for a match between Soosim and Scarletfire, perhaps it should be extended to look for "sleepers". I'll admit to not really understanding how all of this works, so perhaps it's not necessary -- just a suggestion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 05:34, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- Since lack of transparency is a core issue here, it is more than a little ridiculous that Soosim wants to clear things up via off-wiki contact. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:13, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Soosim

Statement by Soosim

I have been following all the comments here, at the coi board, and the sockpuppet board. if I may:

a) I have never been involved with anything relating to any sock puppet or meat puppet. I was very happy to see scarletfire join in, but it is the same as for bus stop, ghcoold, plot spoiler, gilabrand, etc and I'm a pretty sure it is not my wife or kids. so, if someone can give me more details, I will try to sort it out. but no, I don't do that, and wouldn't do that.

b) all edits were my own. always have been, and always will be. I never discussed or approved any edit with anyone beforehand. all edits were RS and always agreed upon - maybe after fighting with various editors but never vandalism or disruptive. it is clear to me that it is very much pov and not coi.

c) nomo has always been abusive to me. I have mentioned that many times to him and to others. I think his intentions are not pure. also, malik, dlv, sean, etc have always been watching me. they have said so. sean has been watching for 3+ years. Nothing was ever snuck in - all done above board, with edit summaries, with discussion when needed, etc. (nomo has already started to look for edits to remove even though the edits are RS and non-controversial: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Medical_Aid_for_Palestinians&oldid=557289438&diff=prev and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ir_Amim&oldid=557288742&diff=prev and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=New_Israel_Fund&curid=2343447&diff=557291079&oldid=550308939 and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=B%27Tselem&curid=38573522&diff=557290974&oldid=554997435 and more

d) I will also say that many editors have jumped to conclusions which are not correct, or even remotely correct. and I think many statements on this page and the coi page have been made which are not based on fact - mostly innuendo, association, over-emotional responses, etc. (one example here is 'edits made during work hours' - I happen to work from home, am a consultant, travel around quite a bit doing my consulting, etc.)

e) and as I said earlier - all edits were responsible, within wiki rules, discussed, etc. many edits were removed, reverted edited by others. no problem. I have cooperated with any editor on any talk page who engaged in a discussion. a most recent example was the nomo/rastiniak/goldblum outrage that incorrectly assumed I wanted to label goldblum as a plo supporter, based on an available RS. within minutes of someone saying that, I removed it. just one example of many many many over the years.

f) and, if I may, perhaps to make it more clear: the I/P conflict area is not one where you can get away with self-promotion, peacock, advertising, etc. and, not to be too repetitive, but wiki is indeed an online encyclopedia, and that npov prevails. that is what I strive for. showing both sides of any discussion, conflict, etc. (again, just look at the many edits nomo is making now, removing any chance for npov. compare and contrast, please....) thanks.

Statement by (username)

~~I may be mussing something, but who does he identify himself as?~~, found it.Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Peter cohen

Quoting our article on Soosim's employer it is an organization "whose stated aim is to generate and distribute critical analysis and reports on the output of the international NGO community for the benefit of government policy makers, journalists, philanthropic organizations, and the general public." Soosim's role is described by his employer as one of "Online Communications". His contributions are spread through the week (apart from Saturday daytimes) but a substantial number of edits take place during normal office hours. There is no reason to doubt that much of his editing of Misplaced Pages was done as a paid contributor pushing the propaganda line of his employers.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I find the following in the link that Nomo has just inserted particularly interesting "Arnie spoke about the battle for objectivity on Misplaced Pages. He spends about an hour a day making sure that facts are checked and verified on the online encyclopedia and that anti-Israel bias is not allowed to stand. He encourages all pro-Israel advocates to join the “wiki war.”" Anyone who is really interested in building an unbiased encyclopaedia should not be inviting pro-anything advocates to join a "war" on the encyclopaedia. His role is quite clearly that of a propagandist and the reference to objectivity is just the usual partisan attitude of campaigners who always believe that the media are biased against them and nothing is objective unless it agrees with them. Note he commented on the blog post and thanked the author for the shout out without any indication that he considered anything said other than an accurate representation of what he said in the reported meeting. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by רסטיניאק

NGO Monitor is Gerald Steinberg and Steinberg is NGO Monitor. There is no LTD there. Steinberg initiated his monitor and calls himself its "president". No action in NGO Monitor can be performed without his order, involvement or agreement. That includes all the edits of Soosim. Therefore, in addition to discussing Soosim there is a need to deal with a whole range of wikipedia activities of NGO Monitor directed by Gerald Steinberg that should be examined, mostly executed by Soosim during the last years since he began editing on wikipedia. They may have had someone else before Soosim to promote their activities and to defame liberal, human rights and Peace NGOs. I would go further than Peter cohen in characterizing the activities of NGO Monitor based on their own words. The main activities of NGO Monitor are geared to harm those organization by aiming at their contributors and supporters, and pushing for legal actions in Israel to block funding from European countries and the EU to Israeli human rights NGOs. There is more on WP:COIN part 8.רסטיניאק (talk) 22:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק

Just stick to the facts please and not wild speculation to promote your own agenda. Plot Spoiler (talk) 03:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Plot Spoiler, but this is not my agenda. This is of general interest to WP. It should have been yours as well. I have just pointed out that Soosim is not operating as an "independent" agent, but is directed by his boss Steinberg who is NGO Monitor. Is that what you call wild speculation ? All of Soosim's editings prove that. I am quite surprised to read Soosim's statement here as well as what he wrote on WP:COIN just 3 days ago : about three years ago, i came across an article that steinberg wrote, i liked it and follow him and his work closely. Interesting way to avoid writing "I work for him and promote him, his ideas, his political fights, and his organization".רסטיניאק (talk) 07:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק

Statement by Zero0000

(Disclosure: As someone once lied about in print by Gerald Steinberg, I'm somewhat ill-disposed towards his organization.) Regardless of what Soosim's job description is, for someone to devote themselves so consistently to promoting the viewpoint of a particular rather extreme activist organization is a violation of the core policy WP:NPOV and should not be allowed. Zero 10:56, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Zero0000—the Israeli–Palestinian conflict tends to generate supporters with passions on opposing sides. Unless reliably sourced, no piece information is allowed to stay in an article on any topic relating to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. It is unlikely that User:Soosim promotes anyone else's ideas. Bus stop (talk) 11:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

POV-pushing is against the rules, no question. WP:NPOV is an obligation on every editor. It is not a defence to note that other editors push other opinions. Material has to be selected in a neutral manner, not merely be sourcable. Zero 11:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

I should note that Arbitrator User:Newyorkbrad made a recent addition to BLP covering this sort of conduct. While Soosim's position at NGO Monitor certainly impacts his editing on various people criticized by that group in connection with the Arab-Israeli conflict such as Goldblum, it also seems to extend to areas where the ARBPIA connection is not so explicit as with this edit targeting Sarah Leah Whitson, another target of NGO Monitor. Granted, there is an Israeli connection to the criticism of Whitson, but it is not explicit in the Libya edit. Administrators here should consider invoking WP:BLPSE while they are reviewing this case or construing the topic ban in such a way that there can't be any indirect pro-Israeli POV-pushing.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:16, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Bus stop

I hardly consider posts such as this and this to represent proper use of Talk page space. I think the editor making those posts, User:רסטיניאק, should remove them. The sentiments expressed in those posts should be disregarded unless expressed in a proper forum, such as this thread that we are in here. Bus stop (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Biased editing is not unheard of concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. I think User:Soosim approximately represents their own perception of events not unlike most editors involved in this area of editing. That they were associated with an organization representing their own vews is hardly surprising. No one is going to associate with an organization representing views diametrically opposed to their own. There is a dearth of evidence of edits made without the support of proper sourcing. I don't think the charges of "POV pushing" and failure to uphold WP:NPOV are as substantial as they sound. There are many eyes on the articles falling under the heading of "Israeli–Palestinian conflict". Judging by the grievances expressed on this page one would get the impression User:Soosim did identifiable damage to the project. If that were the case, would there not be edits that have to be undone? There are many eyes on the articles under discussion. More importantly the "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" is an area of unusually high contention. Sources are the mainstay of the project. I am assuming User:Soosim operated within that which was supported by sources because no one is bringing evidence of improper edits. Do we find damaging edits that now have to be undone? Bus stop (talk) 04:08, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Neby

Soosim edited rarely and sporadically until May 2010 when he began to focus on Human Rights Watch and other subjects of NGO Monitor's concerns. In August - September 2010 he was added to the staff page of NGO Monitor's website . This does suggest that he took up a post at NGO Monitor in May 2010 and was added to the staff page after completing a term of probation, and that his editing of articles relating to NGO Monitor's concerns was the product of his position at NGO Monitor and not a mere coincidence of interests. NebY (talk) 11:00, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing surprising about gravitating to an organization that holds the same understanding that one has of world events. I think this was an innocent coincidence of two pursuits: the individual took up a position at an organization of likeminded individuals. At the same time the individual edited Misplaced Pages. Barely any attempt was made to conceal that. We all edit in our area of competence and/or interest. All that I see transpiring here is the squashing of one individual's passion for editing in the highly contentious area of the "Israeli–Palestinian conflict." My recommendation is that a warning should be given concerning our important policy of WP:NPOV. I think it should be clear by now that WP:Conflict of interest is a policy that is applicable here but that of course should be be reiterated. Beyond that I see no reason for the indefinite I/P (Israeli/Palestinian) topic ban being suggested by administrators below. Obviously increased scrutiny of User:Soosim's future edits will follow this episode. But beyond that I think the individual's voice is as valid and competent as anyone else's and consequently should be allowed to flourish at this project. Material added by User:Soosim was accompanied by supporting sources. WP:NPOV is achieved by the presentation of balancing material. It is wrongheaded to eliminate from the equation an individual who happens to have interests outside of Misplaced Pages that coincide with their interests on Misplaced Pages. It has not been shown that activities on Misplaced Pages were for personal material gain. The area of the "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" is merely an area of passionate personal interest not unlike the passions and interests brought to this area of editing by many other editors. Bus stop (talk) 11:51, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

It seems that Bus stop did not realize the problem that was raised by NebY so here is a clarification: Soosim started editing on WP in March 2008 and has not edited articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict until more than two years later, in May 2010, when he started working for NGO Monitor. Even then, he did not develop a special taste for subjects and issues, but followed very tightly the line of Steinberg and NGO Monitor, simply promoting both of them and attacking their NGO rivals. There is an enormous wide range of possibilities to edit articles in the I/P "area" but Soosim became "His Masters Voice" on each and every subject he edited. Therefore, the argument of Bus_Stop is not valid ("the individual took up a position at an organization of likeminded individuals"). During his initial two+ years on WP, Soosim has shown his ability to edit on other issues, which is probably what should be demanded of him now. I have my doubts about the innocence of some of those edits, as some are clearly for self promotion . The other argument of Bus_Stop, that Soosim used "supporting sources" speaks for itself. Bus-Stop does not suggest that those were RS, or that Soosim's sources were not extremely distorting, because if he had suggested that, this would open a Pandora box of evidence against Soosim. BTW, family promotion by Soosim is prominent in recent edits and so it is quite clear that Soosim could and should direct his efforts in subjects out of I/P. רסטיניאק (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2013 (UTC)רסטיניאק

(ec...mv comment, modified at 13:05, 30 May 2013 (UTC)) Evidence ~~indicates~~ suggests that it is not a mere coincidence of interests. For a specific example of ~~the~~ a sequence of events that resemble an organized NGO Monitor advocacy workflow see Dlv999's data at Talk:NGO_Monitor#A_WP:COIN_discussion_about_this_page_and_others regarding Joel Peters. I've copied the relevant part below from Dlv999's comment.

On March 17 2013 I added some description of NGO Monitor's activities from a published work by the scholar Joel Peters to this article
The very next day, March 18, an open letter by Gerald Steinburg, to Joel Peters appears on the NGO-Monitor website challenging Joel Peters, and referencing this Misplaced Pages page's citation of Peter's work. ("We note that your false allegations in this book have been copied onto the NGO Monitor wikipedia entry, thus further falsifying the record.")
Subsequently, the Steinburg response to Joel Peters and Misplaced Pages citation of the same is dutifully uploaded to our article

Sean.hoyland - talk 12:02, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Result concerning Soosim

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Administrators processing this request should take into account Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Soosim. T. Canens (talk) 04:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I assume that T. Canens may not be free to tell us more, but it looks like there is enough here to justify an indefinite I/P topic ban for User:Soosim. This is for POV-pushing combined with the coyness about his connection to NGO Monitor, and his abuse of multiple accounts. EdJohnston (talk) 03:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Agree with Ed. Enuff already. Killer Chihuahua 11:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I'd agree also to an indefinite IP topic ban. I'd add anything related to NGO Monitor, Gerald Steiberg etc whether or not it is I/P related. Soosim's explanation above does not address the key point here: that aggresively pushing a POV with an undisclosed COI is beyond the pale. To say nothing of hypocricy saying this at his COIN complaint re Goldblum: "I had asked to please first discuss any edit (except for obvious vandalism, etc as per wiki coi) on the talk page" while doing precisely the opposite himself.

In view of the deception and the abuse of multiple accounts I also suggest restricting him to the Soosim account officially. I haven't seen it done before at AE before, but discretionary sanctions say that we can impose "any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." Given the high rates of sockpuppetry on IP pages in particular, it might be best to start being upfront and clear about the fact that simply starting up another account isn't an option.Slp1 (talk) 23:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I concur with and impose the topic ban, for abusing multiple accounts to edit in the topic area, and promoting their own organization (e.g., ) in violation of WP:COI. There's also likely persistent one-sided editing (making changes only or predominantly in favor of the position of one side of the conflict), in violation of WP:NPOV. Because the topic ban applies to the person and all their accounts, a one-account restriction does not appear to add anything of substance to me, but others are free to impose it. I am also, as a normal administrator action, indefinitely blocking Soosim for the abuse of multiple accounts. So closed, Sandstein 20:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Request concerning Proudbolsahye/Ninetoyadome/Yerevanci

Proudbolsahye

Request concerning Proudbolsahye

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: NovaSkola (talk) 18:32, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Proudbolsahye (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User against whom enforcement is requested

Proudbolsahye (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ninetoyadome (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Yerevanci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:ARBAA2

This users have been ignoring wikipedia's policies and didn't even want to take participation in talk page and have been section blanking, while removing my relavant and well sourced information in Guba mass grave article.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Date I am discovering, he may still be under these restrictions, as well. And looking into these past cases more shows thatProudbolsahye/Ninetoyadome/Yerevanci has not changed any behavior of his that were problematic in the other cases. For example, shows the same problematic behavior.
Section blanking by users Proudbolsahye, Ninetoyadome, Yerevanci, without reading the talk guide, despite being warned about it. Furthermore, appearance of all this users

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warned on by NovaSkola (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning USERNAME

Statement by USERNAME

Statement by (username)

Result concerning USERNAME

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.