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NOTE: Please add what you want to discuss with me in the bottom of the page, if it is not a part of an already on-going discussion. And of course, sign it using 4 "~" to make it easier for me to reach you and respond.

Kosovo/Racak

I inserted "allegedly" into your edits of the Kosovo page regarding Racak. Categorically stating that it was a deliberate massacre basically means that you dispute or ignore a good deal of what's being discussed on the dedicated Racak incident page without proper discussion. As your sources don't add any new findings, I see no justification for this. Poxy 21:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Again: you are basically invalidating half of the (rather elaborate) Racak incident page simply by throwing in two (fairly dated and not particularly detailed) articles for reference, none of which add anything new. As a compromise to maintain NPOV, I suggest to replace "allegedly" with something to the effect of "generally regarded as", "widely claimed to be". Or you may want to update the Racak incident page accordingly and explain why the "other point of view" is debunked, so that things are consistent at least. Poxy 22:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"In the original article on Racak incident it clearly states "Outside Yugoslavia, the deaths were widely blamed on the actions of the Yugoslav security forces, which were accused of having committed a deliberate massacre." . Where is the inconsistency with what I said and provided sources for?"

C'mon. The phrases "were widely blamed", "were accused of" are quite different in style and meaning from a definite verdict stating "were executed by", as should be obvious to anyone with basic command of the English language. If you believe such cautionary language is uncalled for because, as you claim, everything has been settled and proven anyway, then go ahead and change the Racak incident page accordingly (note that that page does not state only Yugoslav sources for the "other POV"). But then, you'd want to provide a comprehensive and recent source that takes all the mentioned issues into account and provides new insight. Right now, you selectively took two non-recent random sources (the content of which has been incorporated in the dedicated page) and use that to simply blank out other things on that page that do not conform to your preferred POV. I call that bad form. Poxy 22:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

How recent do you want sources to be? The investigation has taken place when the sources were written. This investigation is not on top news today, because it is finished. With my limited knowledge of English I can distinguish between the meaning of the phrases you mentioned, but the one I stated fits the results of the independent investigations, and OSCE findings in the terrain. The head of that OSCE mission himself called it as such, let alone the rest who clearly noticed that shots were fired from a close distanc, and the killed ones were civillians. I select sources, indeed, because I try to not use Albanian or Yugoslav sources. That is what Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources is about, and what I attempt to achieve with my edits in Wikiepedia. ilir_pz 23:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore using the phrases you proposed just attempts to put cover on the facts on the ground, and are characterized as weasel words, to create an illusion that they are more neutral, but in fact serve a different purposeilir_pz 23:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

IF

anyone wonders why I disregard their sources of information, refer to this Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources. I strictly follow this, when doing that. ilir_pz 08:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Your attempt didn't go unnoticed

Interesting Ilir....really interesting, I knew you'd do it. 22:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

do what? ilir_pz 22:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Reply

(regarding your post about my explaination on the Montenegrin issue).

That's the main reason why many Serbs in Montenegro have voted FOR independence - the Montenegrin authorities said that they will draft a Constitution WHEN Montenegro becomes independent - a good chance for the Serbs to become a constituent nation. However - this is an issue: most Montenegrins do not want to constitutionalize Montenegrins and Serbs as two independent nations in Montenegro. ANd for the Serb side - every Serbian politician must get 36,000 votes to get into the government - while every Montenegrin, Croatian, Bosniak/Moslem and Albanian needs 12,000 - that's that Constitutionality issue (no wonder the government is slightly anti-Serbian nowdays). Get the problem now?

P. S. Hey, does this mean that you will no longer read it up? ;( --HolyRomanEmperor 22:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I read your stuff up. Don't worry. I did not erase the content.Sorry, I had to archive, my talk page got too long, and kept complaining. :). The reason I did that now was because date changed now in the region I am in :). I understand it a bit better now...the constitutional stuff. Gotta go now, g'night. Talk soon.ilir_pz 22:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Comparison with Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herzeg-Bosnia lies simply in the fact that both of the states' peoples were opressed - the fullscale state infrastructure (even on a more organized basis than on Kosovo) was created and the states even achieved some recognition in the world, after they declared indpendence. However, they were not independent, because BiH didn't recognize them, nor did they achieve international recognition. Understand me now? --HolyRomanEmperor 22:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I think comparing Kosovo and BiH is a wrong thing to do. Kosovo's war and BiH war were different in nature, nations involved, reasons, results, origin..So not a good comparison. Kosovo existed far a long time before any such self-declared-and-gained-during-a-bloody-war republics you are mentioning. ilir_pz 22:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I generally agree - however, neither did Kosovo exist as a Republic. You see, there was this big issue in 1944 - the issue of Serbs in Croatia and Albanians in Serbia. Autonomy - or full constitutionality. At the end, it was decided that territorial political autonomy is to be given to the Serbian Albanians due to the fact that they live mostly in the plains of Kosovo, Metohija and the Presevo valley. While the Serbs of Croatia - living virtually all around it, and demanding a total of three autonomous regions if autonomy was to be decided - were given equal rights and Croatia made a Serbian state as much as Croatian. Now, claiming that it's unconnective is slightly insultive to all those Partisans that conveined for months just to solve this issue. --HolyRomanEmperor 10:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Also - in BiH - nations involved? Orthodox Christian (and perhaps some Moslem) Serbs on one side and Islamic Bosniaks on the other. Kosovo: Orthodox Christian and some Moslem Serbs on one side and Islamic Albanians on the other. Origin? Mutual as well - great demographic trends caused by the Ottoman breaches. There are other (although not as important) similarities as well. Also, all the differences make no difference. The point is that the Bosnian Serbs' declaration of independence was only partially accepted, nor did Bosnia and Herzegovina approve the seccession. It is to my opinion that the situation with Kosovo is even less evident - with no declaration of independence nor recognition is present. --HolyRomanEmperor 10:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Woah, I just noticed your post on my talk page for the 1st time. :D

Why not just expand the other sections? I told you that I will shorten it up. Give this to work some time. I have another plan in store - if this doesn't work/you don't agree with it - let me know I'll pull off Plan B. ;)

Jesi li procitao sav tekst o Crnoj Gori? Cudi me sto nemas nista za dodati/pitati. Evo, ja imam da dodam nesto sto propustih u periodu pocetka raspada Jugoslavije. 1993. godine je promijenjena zastava Republike Crne Gore iz 1992. Kako bi se razlikovala od republicke zastave Srbije, plava boja u medji trobojke je znatno posvijetljena - no klasicno crveno-plavo-bijelo je nastavilo da bude u upotrebi. Do 1993 godine se i Srpskohrvatski jezik raspao - Crna Gora je usvojila Srpski jezik ijekavskog izgovora za novi. 1992 godine je i ukinut crnogorski grb - jer postoji srbijansko-crnogorski jugoslovenski zajednicki, a i predstavljao je komunisticka brda. Moram kritikovati referendum za ocuvanje Jugoslavije s Srbijom iz '92. Jedva da je dvije trecina birackoga tijela izislo - a i glasanje je bilo marginalno na etnickoj osnovi. Mnogi Hrvati, dobar dio Muslimana i mnogi Albanci (kao i neki pro-independisti Crnogorci) su bojkovali referendum zbog brojnih sukoba sada vec bivse Jugoslavije. Naravno, skoro 95% stanovnistva je glasalo da odrzi Jugoslaviju s Srbijom - i da je jos birackoga tijela izislo, ne bi se rezultat promijenio. Nacionalnosti su isto samo dijelomicno bojkotovali - a ne kompletni Nacionalni Bojkot kao kod Srba u Hrvatskoj, Bosanskih Srba i Kosovskih Albanaca - koji bi oznacio da je referendum usmjeren protiv brojnih nacija. Volio bih da je malo manje glasanje bilo na etnickoj osnovi i da je vise birackoga tijela izislo. I naravno, volio bih da nije bilo izuzetnog kampanovanja od strane crnogorskih i njima savjeznickih (uglavnom srbijanskih) politicara koji su bili spremni da uzmu sve stvari u svoje ruke, samo kako bi referendum uspio i Jugoslavija opstala u Crnoj Gori i Srbiji. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

(nastavak...)

Republika Crna Gora (u SRJ-u) je pocela procese razgranicenja s Hrvatskom 1996. godine, kada je privremeno rijesen teritorijalni spor oko Prevlake - malog hrvatskog teritorija koji je bio jugoslovenska narodna baza. 1997. godine Hrvatska anektira UN Protektorat Istocne Slavonije, Baranje i Zapadnoga Srijema - koji je mirno integrisan u Hrvatsku 1998. godine. Ovim umiru sve pretenzije crnogorskoga politickog vodjstva o mogucem sirenju Savezne Republike Jugoslavije. Kao sto nije ni smrt poslijednjeg kraja srpske civilizacije u Hrvatskoj veoma dobro prihvacena u Crnoj Gori, tako nije ni konacni ustav Republike Bosne i Hercegovine iz iste '98, koji je zaveo centralizam, uveo Hrvate i Bosnjake u Republiku Srpsku (Srbi su vec odavno bili u Federaciji Bosne i Hercegovine) i srusio bilo kakvu branu izmedju Federacije i Srpstva u BiH. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Te '98 je i ukinut Srpski Dinar u Bosni i Hercegovini - ni to se nije svidjelo. Srpski dinar je bio stvoren 1992 godine. (s Srpskom Republikom) da zamijeni Jugoslovenski dinar - umjesto novoga Bosanskog dinara. U Oktobru 1993 suocio se s velikom inflacijom od 1,000,000:1 - sto je dovelo krahu srpske ekonomije u nekadasnjoj Bosni i Hercegovini. U Januaru 1994 postalo 1,000,000,000:1 (od prosle vrijednosti) - kada se sve steglo oko Srba. Kada su poceli gubiti rat, usvojili su Novi Dinar - paralelan s jakom Njemackom markom, radije nego s bezvrijednim Jugoslovenskim dinarom (i tako sve do ukidanja 1998 i uvodjenja BiHovih Konvertibilnih maraka). U Srpskoj Krajini je postojala slicna situacija - od 1991-1992 je koristen Jugoslovenski dinar. Zamijenio ga je Reformisani Dinar u Julu 1992 godine, koji se 1. Oktobra 1993 suocio s 1,000,000:1 inflacijom; zamijenio ga je Oktobarski dinar, a u Januaru 1994 godine, kada izbi 1,000,000,000:1 inflacija - doveden je Dinar iz 1994. Ubrzo je i on propao, kao i srpska krajisna ekonomija - pa je Hrvatska kuna koristena sve do izgnanka 1995 godine. Vlada u egzilu je privhatila Jugoslovenski dinar (sve do 2003, kada je stvoren Srpski dinar). Republika Crna Gora je koristila Jugoslovenski dinar, ali se suocila s mnogim inlfacijama zbog mnogih stvari (pretjerani drzavni troskovi, sankcije, kriminal,...) od 1,000,000:1 1993 godine i 1,000,000,000:1 1994 godine - sto se nadovezalo na 10:1 iz 1992. i 1:10,000 iz 1990. godine. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

HRE asht Asterion

Jam mëse 99% asht i njojti person--Hipi Zhdripi 00:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, can you ask this guy to leave me alone? All this because I removed his personal attacks in his userpage, which for some obscure reason he does not think were attacks and started sermoning me on the UN (!?!) Maybe I should ask User:Inshanee to see what he thinks... E Asterion 00:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Muzika

M'fal Ilir se nuk e kom pare komentin tend ne bio faqen time. Metallica me pelqen shume, por Dream Theater edhe me shume. Besoj se e ki lexu faqen time ne lidhje me ta. Thanx per komentin, Aeternus 18:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ska problem Petrit. Po pashe qe e kishe update sajtin. Shume mire. Edhe une ne moshen tende e kam pelqy Metallica, Dream Theatre, Rage against the machine, Nirvana etj. Tash pleqeria e jam zbute pak, po perseri i ndegjoj ato se jane legjenda. Kishe shku edhe ne Irlande te vendi ku U2 kishin be incizimet e para a? shume mire. Flasim.ilir_pz 19:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Districts in Kosovo

Nëse e shikon Kodin Postal do të shohës që ato në faktë janë të ndara ashtu në qarqe (Ka edhe prova tjera por unë ende nuk jam ra në to). Administrata dhe gjithë sistemi administrativ Kosovarë është i ndarë sipas këtij principi. Mirpo sipas kartës Evropiane, komunat kanë të drejtë të vendosin për lidhje komunale, kjo edhe e ka ngadalsuar procesin në terren. Mirëpo si do që të jetë infrastruktura është e pregatitur dhe nuk ma merrë mendja se ndonjëra komunë ka të holla të hudhë poshtë, për ndryshimin e infrastruktures.--Hipi Zhdripi 18:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

E di Hipi, te kuptoj plotesisht. Ka gjithe ato pengesa nga lloj-lloj ligjesh ne fuqi ne Kosove, qe po e pengojne zhvillimin ne terren. Qe gjen diku dokumente, na i sjell, ose rregulloje permes tyre Municipalities of Kosovo. ilir_pz 18:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Please don't vandalise articles. You and I both know what the KLA was and what they did. -- serbiana - talk 23:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

you are not welcome in my talk page. ilir_pz 23:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Rakia

Why are you accusing C-c-c-c, Boris, Estavisti and I of being the same person? All four of us are currently living in different locations, and different continents. Estavisti has more edits than Boris as well... Boris really worked hard on that sockpuppet! Anyhow, feel free to add me on msn, so we can have a chat. (ivanm16@gmail.com) -- Krytan talk 01:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I was impressed by the speed of coordination of reverting article in KLA article. Of course one would be suspicious. Having an msn account does not make me suspect less. I think discussing here is enough, do not need further discussions in msn. ilir_pz 10:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ja arriten qëllimit

Ja arritën qëllimit që me hekë atë që kamë prezentuar në pjesën fillestare të fletës së diskutimit. Nejse, ma merrë mendja se e ka kryer funksionin por me siguri që shpejtë kam me prezentu diçka të ngjajshme.

False alarms

Hi,

I'm sure that Bormalagurski has some sock-puppets, but Krytan is definitly not one of them. Estavisti is possible not one of his sock-puppets either. These people have quite a different interest appart from having common affection for extremely biased pro-serbian editing.

It is obvious that these people coordinate their activities, but they are not the same person.

So, next time You decide to report him for sock-puppeting, beter be sure, or you might end up like a sheppard that cried "wolf".

Bormalagurski has reputation so bad, that only think that helps him are accusations against him proven false ;). So, let's not do that.

Regards, Ante Perkovic 08:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you see the description of my suspicion? I also suspected meatpuppetry, not only sockpuppetry. The speed of reverting, and coordination, that could make anyone suspect. ilir_pz 10:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to tell me about meetpuppetry, I've seen plenty of it in last 2 or 3 weeks. Anti-croatian propaganda has risen 10-fold since the begginig of May. I believe Boris is behind at least some of those incidents. But, how do You prove these things? Meet puppetry is, by definition, impossible to prove by various IP checks. --Ante Perkovic 10:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am sure you are familiar with the same type of actions. The case I described showed a perfect example of meat-puppetry, for example. No need to check IP's here. The coordination, and the amount of text reverted is a reason enough to suspect that. Come on, they edited within less than 1 minute. ilir_pz 11:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, You wrote Just check when suspected sockpuppets User:Krytan and User:Estavisti "started" editing.. So, I don't see You mentioned meat puppetry, only sock'-puppetry

Listen, I'm on your side, and that is why I'm telling You to slow down and not to make complaints that You can not prove. I think we better examine the rules of wiki and precisely formulate which rules they broke. I'm refusing to believe that this organised POV campaign can go unpunished for much longer. --Ante Perkovic 12:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point, Ante. Yes, something should be done for this POV campaign, which I am sure some organize through MSN messenger or something. Let me know if you notice something suspicious as well, and I can help you prepare a report for the admins.ilir_pz 14:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You can't accuse me for anything, I have been law-abiding, I'm sorry that you can't just accept that. I have a clean record. I have never been blocked. Ever. Estavisti is also a good law-abiding contributer, who has more edits than Boris. Boris, sure he has a history, but you keep accusing him for his POV. I can accuse you of that too. Why the hell do you take out the point that I put in the Kosovo article, when I said that the Serbian (not Serbia-Montenegro) constitution defines Kosovo as an autonomous province in Serbia? -- Krytan talk 21:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You know very well the reason why I suspected you. Check my report. You either are the sockpuppet or meatpuppet i.e. were told by MSN to change it at that exact second when the other was almost crossing the 3RR rule. Anyone would be suspicious. If not sockpuppet, your reverting coordination with the other user is admirable...and "patriotic".ilir_pz 22:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Coordination? Grow up. I have those articles in my watch list. The moment it is edited I can see it. You in fact might be Hipi's meatpuppet. Or is he your meatpuppet? -- Krytan talk 23:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

whatever. ilir_pz 23:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Skanderbeg heroism

Come on Ilir, you cant belive it yourself that a warlord from the medevial age is a hero? Thank God we stop this glorification of Swedish "heros" and "kings" during the 1950's. You should too. Litany 17:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If you read a bit about his wars and contribution, you would appreciate him, too, as he stopped the influx of Ottoman empire in the rest of Europe, but not leting Ottomans cross the Adriatic Sea to Italy. Swedish still glorify heroes, and are proud of their Viking ancestry. Why does it irritate you that I consider Scanderbeg a hero? It's proven in many years, that he indeed deserves such a title. History usually reveals fake heroes, for him none could find one thing against calling him a hero. Regards, ilir_pz 20:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello

How's it been? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Fine thanks, HRE. Pretty normal, in Misplaced Pages at least, sockpuppets, meatpuppets, multiplying like crazy. Apart from that, taking a time off, resting after many months of stress with my thesis. How are you? ilir_pz 20:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Controlling Serb Falsehoods

Here is some info that may help you to counter Serb falsehoods in the Kosovo talk page. I am on the mission to bust all their myths:)

As I have said before, take with a grain of salt everything written by a Serb about Albanians. They will stop at nothing in their attempt to spread falsehoods. Now, ladies and gentleman, here is something about Serbia that a Serb would do anything to prevent you from knowing. This information is from a Serbian source: Serbian Education and Labor Ministry!

Poverty still rife in Serbia “President of the Free Workers Union, Dragoljub Stosic, said that Albania was once the regional poster child for poverty, but that because of the high unemployment rate and the increased amount of corruption, Serbia has now taken over the role. “We are, unfortunately, one of the countries for which days such as this are being recognized.” Stosic said yesterday, which marked the International Day for the Fight Against Poverty. “We are on the same level as Rwanda and similar countries, though I would not compare them with us because, there are increasingly fewer and fewer nations with whom we can compare ourselves. We cannot offer help today, we can only ask for charity.” Stosic said.”

Half of Serbia Illiterate “According to statistics from the Education Ministry, nearly 50 percent of Serbian citizens never finished elementary schooling. This means that over 3 million people in Serbia are considered illiterate by all international and European standards. “

I report, you decide.Ferick 18:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting articles you found, Ferick. Thanks for sharing them with me. Good luck with your mission. I've been trying to fight the falsehoods eversince I "came" to Misplaced Pages. The time when Serbian regime propaganda convinced the world that Albanians should be under their control is a past one. Albanians suffered enough from that propaganda, filled with lies, and speculations, to just justify the classical oppression, as the last (Milosevic) war showed. I will try to supply you with some articles that I find. Showing the truth is a must, and the main purpose of Misplaced Pages. Even the old documents which de-jure still attempt to make Kosovo seem in any kind of relation with inexistant states are shortlived. By the end of this year, things will be much clearer. Can't wait. ilir_pz 20:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess what we lack in reading and writing skills we make up in the sciences.

P.S. Assuming that Kosovo is in Serbia, (which it is by the way), I could actually believe that 3 million illiterate rate, if a good amount was in Kosovo. Also, I wasn't aware blogs were "credible" sources, even dear Ilir said so ;) -- Krytan talk 21:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You do not sound any different from the person I suspected you of being the sockpuppet of. The same irony, the same type of argument. As far as the source is concerned, it seems like b92 reported that. ilir_pz 22:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, this would be pathetic enough if you were from a rich country and insulting Serbia about its economic state. However, you are Albanian and, true to form, the pathetic, frustrated, powerless, Schadenfreude that shines through everything you write relating to Serbia is not absent here. I've been to Albania, the country where shopkeepers sit in the dark in the evening and only switch on the generator when customers come in to save money. Not because there's a power cut (though those are frequent), but because the electricity grid hasn't reached their part of the country. The European country (shocking, isn't it?) where people herd their cattle down the A-roads. So I suggest you focus your energies and intelligence (you must have had some to get that MSc.) on improving your own country instead of lashing out at a more successful one. Now you're going to say that this is a personal attack, unprovoked, blah blah blah, you're such a poor victim. You've been provoking all of us with your crap, what did you expect? --estavisti 23:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)