Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:02, 1 September 2004

I do not understand this sentence (really just the first clause):

Advocacy for its use has sometimes been criticized as due to political correctness; those who prefer it say it is a matter of respect and politeness

How is the terms political correctness in any way a "criticism" (and does this mean that it therefore is not a reason for using the term)? It seems to me that it doesn't matter whether it is good politics or just plain polite, either way is a good reason for using the term. SR

• I wholeheartedly agree. In defense of the originator's phrasing, though, they may have meant that those who use terms like "political correctness" mean the term to be negative. There are some folk who want to defend their right to use whatever terms hey grew up with, and for NPOV sake, I guess they ought to be represented. I just don't agree with 'em, personally. -- April

I think the page should be retitled "Black American" since "African American" is ambiguous and not as recognized as some people want. And "political correctness" is bad because it suggests that calling black people "African Americans" will magically make them being an oppressed underclass go away. Who in their right mind gives a damn whether black people are called black or "African Americans"? And no, the fact that black people request this doesn't mean anything. What does "respect" gain them when they largely remain poor, uneducated and oppressed? "respect" isn't something you can eat. --Anon

I think that would be inadvisable, since the most common official usage is presently African-American. You'll never get a consensus, since a lot of what people call themselves is both based on generation and region, so we might as well stay with the official. And it does actually matter what people want to call themselves, by the way. In my family, the West Indian faction definitely want to be called West Indian, NOT black, and my neice and nephew prefer "mixed" to "mulatto". That said, I think of myself as mixed (specifically a mostly German-Scots mutt), and HATE to describe myself as a color, when everybody else gets to define themselves by ethnic heritage...JHK

Mega dittos JHK! BTW Anon, "Black American" is both an obvious misnomer and is far more ambiguous than the more informative "African American" -- a term that describes where someone's ancestors came from. Besides this issue, is the fact that JHK brought up -- "African American" is the term most often used. --maveric149

If you don't like describing yourself by a color, then complain about the fact that people care what color your skin is. This would be a perfectly legitimate complaint since it's possible to raise children to be color-blind. As for ethnicity, I HATE having to describe myself by an ethnicity; so how about that?

If you want to describe yourself by ethnicity for some weird ass reason then why don't you use an ethnic group? 'African' is not an ethnic group! 'European' isn't an ethnic group either, just a euphemism for 'white'. Or are we supposed to call them ethnic groups because the word 'race' is not PC anymore?

Let's empirically test whether 'african american' is supposed to be informative or if it's just supposed to be the PC gloss over a race term. The test is this: what would people call an australian aborigine who moves to the USA?

If you're so ignorant of your heritage that you don't even know what ethnic group you're from then you don't deserve to call yourself by one! -- ark

--- Now, there's a statement redolent with white arrogance and condescension! Your statements throughout this discussion show YOU to be the one who is abysmally ignorant of African American heritage and culture. You should just shut the hell up, because you obviously haven't a clue and clearly aren't qualified to make pronouncements on who knows what on this subject. deeceevoice

ark, perhaps you misunderstand the neature of an encyclopedia. There is a term, "African-American," that is in wide use, at least in the United States. It is reasonable to have an article describing how the phrase is used, its history, and its meaning(s). If there is public debate over the use of the term, a good article will also describe that debate. (It is my sense that there is little if any debate today over the use of this term). Whether I or you or anyone else personally does not like this term is irrelevant. And if you or I do not understand why people use this term -- well, isn't this the purpose of an encyclopedia, to help us understand? Perhaps it is time for you to re-read the NPOV policy, and otehr guidelines for Misplaced Pages. SR

Apparently, you don't understand the role reality plays in an encyclopedia entry. Just because Americans use the euphemism African American (whether or not at the request of the native black population) doesn't negate the fact that the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s.

When political correctness was first invented, it may or may not have been honest social engineering. To determine that, you'd have to look at the socio-political conditions when the PC movement started. You'd have to check whether black Americans were winning gains or losing them.

But nowadays, black Americans are steadily losing everything they gained in previous decades. So the continued use 'African American' is just a shallow and tragic (or shallow and cynical) attempt to deny reality.

An explanation of all these issues is relevant to an encyclopedia entry. The purpose of Misplaced Pages isn't to reinforce American delusions and myth-making (at least, I hope not). The notion that white Americans are any the less racist by using a transparent euphemism for race and blacks is just such a delusion.

The notion that conservative and liberal American attitudes to a political issue (such as PC) are the only ones that count is another American myth. Just because you've got "what the Republicans say" and "what the Democrats say" in the article doesn't mean you've covered all sides of the issue. Which is precisely why I am bringing up the sides of the issue the article never talks about. And in so doing I am helping in the construction of an NPOV article. What are you doing? (Other than being an arrogant ass.)

So let's recapitulate:

1. Describing someone by skin colour is just as legitimate as describing them by other physical characteristics like height, hair and eye color, weight, build, et cetera.
2. Most people (both white and black) go beyond that and take the illegitimate step of describing people's identity by their skin color. This involves a completely artificial concept called "race".
3. America is a very racist place (one who believes that "race" exists and is important) as is Brazil and pretty much the entire planet.
4. Yet only Americans have bizarre race politics in which acknowledging the fact that people are racist (or that people have visibly different skin color) is verbotten. Instead, one is supposed to use "ethnicity".

Have you spent any time in Latin America or talking to Hispanics? Talk about people in denial about virulent and pervasive racism -- all the while pretending that they're just one, big, happy family. deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

1. In fact, terms like "African American" have little or no relation to ethnicity and are just euphemisms for race terms. Most people (even most liberals) do not know and do not care about the difference between a Nigerian and an Ethiopian. They're both supposed to be "African". (Which is especially absurd once one realizes that Africa is the most ethnically diverse place in the entire freaking world.)

---

Not so at all. This is sheer ignorance. Ethnic designations have a great deal to do with culture: language, foodways, music, physical adornment/dress, shared history, etc. Taking on the name "African-American" -- "African" as a legitimate descriptor of important aspects of black ethnicity/culture (indeed as an asignation of source) is perfectly legitimate. Culturally, we are not simply dark Americans; there IS a difference. And, frankly, it's not our concern what "most liberals" (or bigots) think or don't think. The term "African-American" is, first and foremost, about what many of us have chosen to call ourselves -- for any number of perfectly valid reasons. And it really doesn't matter what others think of the term. I hear no such similar arrogant presumptions about why Italian-Americans, Chinese-Americans, or Irish-Americans refer to themselves as they do. deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

1. There is a widespread delusion that liberals are "less racist" because they use euphemisms for blunt race terms.

All of these things are important and relevant to an encyclopedia entry. As much as Americans like to live in denial, an entry that takes their own view of their country as unquestionable fact will be useless to non-Americans. Principally because it will be false. -- ark

There is nothing in the article that denies that "the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s." Moreover, there is nothing about the phrase "African-American" that denies that "the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s;" conversely, use of the phrase does not suggest that racism against Blacks does not exist. Nothing in the article suggests that merely by using this phrase, one has proven that one is not a racist.

Only technically. It is strongly implied though. How? Americans already believe it and the article doesn't dispute it in any way, but subtly validates their own worldview.

By the way, I observe that you use the term "Black." You know, there was a time when Blacks were called something else in this country (and there are still some people who call them something else). The fact that you call them "Blacks" does not change the fact that there continues to be a considerable amount of racism against African-Americans in this country, though. Indeed, there are many racists who call African-Americans "Black." Personally, I see no reason to assume that therefore anyone who calls an African American "Black" is necessarily a racist. But you never know! SR

When talking to racists, it is often needful to use their language. I wouldn't get very far if I just denied that such a thing as "race" exists. And while race should have no role in everyday or political life anymore than hair colour does, the fact that it has and continues to do so means it must be taken into account by anyone interested in sociology and psychology.

(I got African American and Political correctness confused when I ranted about liberals versus conservative views.) -- ark

ARK, The point is not to decide which term is the least racist -- it is to use the most accepted term. If we were working in the 1950s, we'd say Negro. And you are somewhat correct in that African is not an ethnicity -- clearly there are many ethnic groups and within those groups many different tribes in Africa. However, the reality in America is that most Africans brought over as slaves were deliberately separated from fellow tribesmen, and through the generations most African-Americans have become people whose African background is, well, pan-African, rather than from any particular African ethnic group.

As for your somewhat spurious inquiry about an Australian Aborigine who re-located to the US, he would most likely consider himself Aborigine or maybe Australian. Moreover, most of the people I deal with (generally my students or collegues) who come from parts of Africa WOULD NOT consider themselves African-American -- they are Somali-American, Ghanaian-American. Your insistence on using Black is somewhat offensive, not because it is not PC (something I generally question), but because it reduces people to skin color. Ethnic heritage is important and interesting. Learning about different peoples' backgrounds helps to build understanding and break down the barriers that seeing things in terms of color tends to create. JHK

Regarding pan-Africanism. I agree, I just wish it was explained that way.

Regarding skin color. There is nothing inherent in skin color that logically entails a tendency for people to reduce others to their skin color. Just because people note others are black, brown or white doesn't necessarily imply that they reduce them to their skin color. This is important because it means that noting skin color doesn't produce racist people. Rather, the reverse happens; racism causes people to note (obsess over) skin color. (Many people seem to have problems distinguishing between correlation, causation and reverse -causation. I don't and I consider such beneath me.)

By the way, when you implicitly refer to 'African American's' backgrounds, it's ironic to note that little to none of their background has anything to do with Africa. The pan-Africanism is a mythology which some American black leaders have deliberately constructed over the last few decades. So in my view, 'African American' is about as much of an ethnicity as 'Atheist American'. Doubly so since 'American' isn't even an ethnicity; sociologists recognize about a dozen different ethnicities in the continental US!

"... little to none of their background has anything to do with Africa." WTF? Someone seems sorely in need of a course in African-American Culture 101. lol deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You think that using black and brown is offensive? Well, I think the insistence on avoiding it is offensive. It's magical thinking. It's a cargo cult. It's rearranging the organizational charts. And I find all such things ridiculous at best and offensive when taken seriously. Now, if people could stop being so damned "offended" long enough to provide a reasonable argument (which you did with African, thank you) then that would be a Good Thing, don't you think?

Here's another argument for you to think about. The US has never recognized dual cultural heritage; this is the country where the Melting Pot is the official doctrine, remember? So there are Americans and then there are non-Americans. Black isn't an ethnicity so a black American is still an American. What do you think that makes an "African" American?

More faulty reasoning. There have ALWAYS been hyphenated Americans -- groups who recognize their dual identities as immigrants or the offspring of immigrants. This need to identify with countries of origin goes beyond identification with any particular nation-state, but has much to do, again, with ethnicity/culture -- foodways, language, customs, music, etc. The U.S. has never been a "melting pot." That is the great lie, the great myth. The nation remains segregated/polarized around issues of "race" and ethnicity. There are still ethnic neighborhoods and tightly knit circles of ethnically exclusive social and political groupings. And "black," when used to refer to a particular group of people with a common history and common culture, IS an ethnicity.deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

An interesting anecdote about Somali-Americans. It seems the US government has been deporting children of Somali-Americans born on US soil. To the gov, there's no such thing as 'Somali-Americans'.

On a tangential note, there are considerable cultural tensions (at least in Minneapolis) between Somali-Americans (i.e. "of Somali ancestry") and African-Americans (i.e., "descended from slaves brought forcibly to the USA"). I'm not an expert on such matters, but two aspects I've noted are: (1) Somali immigrants and their children, as was the case with previous waves of immigrants, are motivated to do well academically and acculturate to the economically successful strata of society. (2) Some groups of African-Americans resent the success of their Somali-American counterparts.

I've also heard stories of children from Africa being teased by their African-American classmates for "not being black enough". (!!) What bugs me is, if these people have their panties so up in a bunch about this, why don't they take it as a challenge to do better? <sarcasm on> Oh, wait, silly me, I'm speaking from the position of a middle-class European in America, a member of the above-mentioned "economically successful strata of society" and couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about. *whaps forehead*</sarcasm off>

Apologies for the mini-rant. Needless to say, US American notions of race, ethnicity, and cultural identity are intertwined and complex. The fact that we're able to talk about them in this manner is in itself a sign of progress. Let's not lose sight of that. Pgdudda

Au contraire. There are many of us who would take the fact that a discussion of the term "African-American" has degenerated into an opportunity for whites to indulge in admitted "rants" and pointless, backhanded random criticisms of the people so described as a sure sign of the persistent and virulent racism and self-righteousness of many white Americans. Apology NOT accepted.

And one other thing. There seems to be an assumption that "African-American" is a term that was imposed upon black folks by whites. No so. It's a term WE chose -- for any number of reasons, of which there seems to be precious little understanding or knowledge by the contributors in this section. Just amazing. deeceevoice 17:34, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that any ethnologist would class black Americans as belonging to whatever American geo-ethnic group they belong to, with no distinction between black and white. If this isn't so then I'm certain that the ethnic groups of black Americans are merely subgroups of the major recognized geo-ethnic groups. IOW, that there is no such thing as an "American black ethnicity". Tough cookies but this is a matter of fact for sociologists to debate, though the delusion that laypeople have a say in the matter should be duly recorded in an encyclopedia entry. -- ark

Quite the contrary. Any ethnologist worth his/her salt definitely would distinguish between black and white American citizens. To do otherwise would be to ignore obvious differences in African-American culture and that of other ethnic groups in American society.deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ed Poor changed:

African American (or African-American) is a term used to describe black Americans of African heritage. More broadly and less formally, it is sometimes used for any black person living in America.

to

African American (or African-American) is a term used to describe black Americans of African or Caribbean heritage.

Perhaps I'm misremembering my history, but isn't the black population of the Caribbean largely of the same origins as that of the US: descendants of Africans brought in and forced into slave labor during the colonial era? Ergo, Caribbean blacks are of African heritage? --Brion VIBBER

Exactly my point, Brion. But I couldn't figure out who to work that idea into the article. Would you please do that for me? --Ed Poor

Well, I'd have done it by not bothering to mention "Caribbean" in the first place. ;) --Brion VIBBER

I just edited some cut-and-paste garble out of the third paragraph and it struck me: Just what term do those who criticize "African-American" as "political correctness" propose to replace it? And what claim to the right to do so are they asserting? Is it those who disdain "colored people" and favor "people of color"? Or it those who . . . who what? Are racists, perhaps.

To me it is a matter of respect for the fact that African-Americans put up with a boatload of stupidity and worse every day of their lives. As Colin Powell says, "When you're black, you're black all day." So what possible objection can there be to respecting their wishes as to their preferred designation? Ortolan88 06:19 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

I'm not sure what's up with that, but it might be a resistance to any categorization. I've repeatedly heard complaints from various advocates that terminology denoting a certain group was demeaning in that it "labeled" them. These objections may stem from a desire to avoid unfavorable stereotyping. Anyway, as time goes by the usage of terms shifts, and it would be nice if the Misplaced Pages could chronicle these shifts. --Ed Poor

Precisely, Ortolan! It's not like we're asking for a white stamp of approval about what to call ourselves -- or that we recognize others' (especially white folks') reaction to it is of any importance or merit. It doesn't matter to us in the least. So, what's all this crap? A "boatload of stupidity," indeed! :-p deeceevoice 06:02, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Question: Would the term African American be used for Black American citizens coming from the West Indies? If a Black British person took US citizenship would they become an "African American"? I am interesed in how direct the link with America has to be. --Anonymous

In the early nineties I read an article in a linguistic journal. I think the title was "Self Reference Terms for Decendants of American Slaves". Published in the early 1990s or late 1980s. I'll see if I can find it. (Personally I don't like the term African American. I believe whites like to use it so they can put Black Americans in with the emigrant groups and forget about the middle passage and slavery.) Gbleem 20:42 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

I believe African American, like other positive terms before it, has become popular at the behest of African Americans, not whites. As for your other question, many leading members of the community have come from a West Indian background, including Marcus Garvey, Sidney Poitier, and Colin Powell, which pretty much covers the possible range, yet they are all known as American Negroes or African Americans. On the other hand, if Lenny Henry moved to this country, fascinating thought, I'm pretty sure we'd think he was English. Since race is a social classification, there isn't going to be a heck of a lot of logic about it.Ortolan88

I'm sorry. I'm Gbleem and I was trying to answer the West Indies question written by someone else. I took the liberty of adding an Anonymous signature to that question. The article I mentioned talks about the path of the term African-American. Sure Black people started it but it was introduced to most Whites by Jessie Jackson. The intention by Blacks may be to have a term that has the same status as Italian-American or Asian-American but the result is a loss of significant history in the minds of other ethnic groups.

The online database I found doesn't go back before 1995. I'll try to get by the UMKC Library next week and find that article. "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In the Cafeteria?" by Beverly Tatum might have some interesting insites. I read it a few years ago but I remember her saying she liked Black because she was in college when "Black is Beautiful" was a popular slogan. I most likely heard that slogan on T.V. when I was a kid. (I'm 34) Gbleem

Hi Gbleem, I took the further liberty of indenting our contributions to make it clear who's talking when. I really don't think anyone has ever forgotten that black people came here as slaves, regardless of the term used, from the most offensive to the most favored. And, if you've read memoirs by black Americans who have visited Africa, they almost always come back with a conviction that they are Americans, not Africans. Ortolan88

I hear that journalists are forced to use African American, and replace any use of black. One wonders how they will refer to Lennox Lewis. And anecdotally, I heard about a politician's office (Bay Area I think) which set up the word processor to automatically change the word. This led to the literal color black being replaced (...penguins are African-American and white)

"Forced" as in coercion? Ridiculous. Any publication of any merit has a style in matters such as this, so that there is consistency in format, spelling, word usage, etc. It's simply standard journalistic practice. YOu sign up with a publication, you follow the style manual.deeceevoice

"The African American race is the most punished race in North America. African American males are more likely to be imprisoned than any other demographic group, especially between the ages of 20 and 39. African American public school students are most likely to be assigned to special-education classes."

I find this statement very POV, coming as it does, under the rubric of "Slavery and Oppression". One could just as well say "the African American race is the most criminal race" or "the African American race is the most criminally victimised race". All these facts are true, and their significance can only be determined by a deeper analysis. According to a Federal Report "Mearly all of the aggregate differences among sentences for whites, blacks, and Hispanics during 1989-90 can be attributed to characteristics of offenses and offenders that current law and sentencing guidelines establish as legitimate considerations in sentencing decisions." -- Daran 00:22, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"...the most criminal race"?

WTF? And by whose twisted standards? When examined by true factors of what produces criminal behavior -- rather than by backwards notion of race (literacy/education level, socioeconomic background, rearing-family status, family history) -- one would see that rates of criminality are pretty much level across ethnicities. It is the disproportionate presence of factors that militate toward criminal behavior, in addition to the racially skewed criminal justice system that account for much of the the imbalance.

And speaking of so-called "legitimate considerations in sentencing decisions" (that gave me a big laugh), let me offer for your consideration this, verbatim from the FAMM website:

• Cocaine is a powder which in its "cooked" form is called crack cocaine.

• The mandatory minimum sentencing laws established by Congress in 1986 reflect the belief that crack is more harmful than powder cocaine and penalize crack defendants more harshly than powder cocaine defendants. Defendants convicted of selling 500 grams of powder cocaine or five grams of crack cocaine receive five-year sentences. For five kilos of powder cocaine and 50 grams of crack, the penalty is 10 years. Thus there is a 100:1 ratio.

• Simple possession of any quantity of powder cocaine by first-time offenders is considered a misdemeanor, punishable by no more than one year in prison. Simple possession of crack cocaine is a felony, carrying a five-year mandatory sentence.

• A 1995 report of the U.S. Sentencing Commission found little inherent difference between crack and powder cocaine and concluded that the 100:1 ratio was unfair. Congress rejected a subsequent amendment by the Sentencing Commission to eliminate the sentencing disparity between crack and powder. Other efforts to alter the ratio failed. Special Report to the Congress: Cocaine and Federal Sentencing Policy, February 1995.U. S. Sentencing Commission.

• Blacks accounted for 84 percent of the drug offenders convicted of crack offenses in fiscal year 2000, Hispanics 9 percent and whites 6 percent. Of the powder cocaine offenses, Hispanics accounted for 50 percent, blacks 30 percent and whites 18 percent. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

• No weapons were involved in 89 percent of the cocaine cases and 79 percent of the crack cases. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

• The mean average sentence length for powder cocaine is 77 months, compared to 119.5 months for crack cocaine. The median average is 60 months for powder cocaine and 97 months for crack cocaine. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

• Only offenders convicted of murder and kidnapping/hostage taking serve longer mean average sentences than crack offenders. Those convicted of robbery serve an average 108 months; arson, 68 months; sexual abuse, 65 months; and manslaughter, 25 months. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

• A 1996 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association finds similar physiological and psychoactive affects for crack and powder cocaine and challenges the basis of harsher crack sentences. Crack Cocaine and Cocaine Hydrochloride: Are the Differences Myth or Reality?," by Dorothy K. Hatsukami, Ph.D., and Marian W. Fischman, Ph.D. Journal of American Medical Association, November 20, 1996.

• An analysis of 36 studies on "crack babies" published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows that poverty and the use of cigarettes, alcohol and other drugs during pregnancy are just as likely as cocaine to cause developmental problems in children. "Growth, Development and Behavior in Early Childhood Following Prenatal Cocaine Exposure," by Deborah A. Frank, M.D.; Marilyn Augustyn, M.D.; Wanda Grant Knight Ph.D.; Tripler Pell, M.Sc.; and Barry Zuckerman, M.D. Journal of the American Medical Association, March 28, 2001.

This is not an invitation to carry this discussion further. I find it irrelevant and distasteful.

I am of the opinion, however, that ranking oppression and disadvantage is not a terribly productive exercise. After all, such things are highly personal and subjective to those so affected, and there is no objective metric, no Richter scale for human suffering. I find the sentence -- and, frankly, much of this discussion (and, as a result, portions of the article itself) -- abysmally ham-handed, arrogant, inept and wrong-headed. And I mean that in a nice way. :-p deeceevoice 19:09, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Removed Since then it has become a definition accepted by the Western World.

This is clearly not the case in the UK. I find it very strange when US people say "I didn't know he was black", when seeing a picture of someone's grand-parents. -- Chris Q 09:36, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The latest edit made (by Karukera) was changing this:

or even a European nation

to this:

or even an European nation

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't go around saying "an Errr-uh-pe-an". Should not the /j/ sound take the word "a"? I don't say "an yam" or "an year" or "an Yugoslavian", do you? And we don't say "an unicorn" or "an uniform" or "an urinal" either, with what sound like they begin with Y. So, forget the "E" at the beginning for a moment . . . what about "(a|an) European" or "(a|an) eucalyptus"? Should we leave this spelling correction in, or revert it? Thoughts? Wiwaxia 02:13, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Someone removed the fact that Af-Ams have lower average IQ (~80) than white or asian (~100). This is not in itself a racist comment. It seems to be politically correct to say that all races have equal intelligence, but this is simply not true. Consider dogs, for instance. There are many "races" of dogs, but some races are smarter than others. There is debate that IQ does not measure intelligence. Given this valid contention, it should be stated in the article that "Although African Americans have a lower average IQ compared to whites and Asians, it should also be mentioned that IQ tests have been criticized as being invalid measures of intelligence". Acornlord 10:28, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Black" vs "black"

I've just replaced some instances of "Black" and "White" with "black" and "white", since the previous version had a hodge-podge of case usage.

I know that many groups favor capitalizing the terms "black" and "white", but to be encyclopedic the article should pick one and be consistent throughout, as mixing the two together serves only to confuse. And for completeness, whether or not the term should be capitalized should be addressed in the "Term Criticism and Alternative Names" or "Terms No Longer in Current Use" sections.

Similarly, "Negro" vs "negro" should be resolved, although in this case there seems to be a stronger precedent for the former.

Kaszeta 18:55, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Negro" versus "negro" was resolved decades ago. The use of "negro," with a small "n," long has been considered disrespectful/racist -- much in the same way a white person calling an unrelated black man "uncle" is insulting and condescending. I haven't seen it in print (except in racist publications or by people who simply don't know any better) since the 1940's. No reputable, literate publication these days uses "negro" -- at least not in the United States.

And as for black, most black folks I know don't capitalize either "black" or "white." In fact, the lower-case use of the preferred term (preferred to "Negro") was one of the many reasons black folks adopted the term African-American. "Negro" had acquired Uncle Tommish connotations and was too easily "mispronounced" (the way redneck southerners were so fond of doing) to approximate "nigra"/"nigger," and it was felt that our people deserved an upper-case designation on par that of other "hyphenated Americans," that expresses our pride in our African heritage -- and, for some of us, one that expresses a pan-Africanist worldview. deeceevoice 17:19, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Afro American

Doesn't the term Afro American (Afro-American) refer to people of direct or indirect African decent? (e.g. an American whose parents are Cuban and Jamican would be an Afro American as would someone straight from Africa) Dustin Asby 15:30, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AN OBJECTIVE, COMMONSENSE EXPLANATION OF THE TERM

Raising children to be "color-blind"? WHAT?!!! If you suspect your child is color-blind, a visit to the ophthalmologist is in order.

"... though it is sometimes (incorrectly) used to refer to black Americans whether of African descent or not." WHAT?!!! Name me ONE black person who isn't African in origin? There isn't ONE. Even Australian aboriginies, folks from New Guinea (even East Indians) are black because their ancestors came straight out of Africa. They are part of the African diaspora. (But you can leave out India, if you want. That's a rather lengthy discussion.) This statement GOES when I have a moment. It makes no sense.

Deleted: "... , though it is sometimes (incorrectly) used to refer to all black Americans, whether of African descent or not." (Couldn't bear for it to remain a minute longer.) deeceevoice 16:43, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also deleted -- that stuff about it being considered offensive, because such attitudes stem from ignorance and, possibly, racism. Also, because the initial definition reads more cleanly stated as simple fact. The nuances surrounding the term, as well as the contentions, are described amply enough later in the article. Besides, I found the wording offensive. deeceevoice 16:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It shouldn't be necessary, but, given the depths to which the discussion has degenerated, I feel I must state the obvious. There is a natural human need to define oneself in terms of one's ethnicity and all that entails: shared/common history, physical appearance, food, language, history, customs, etc. In a nation so diverse as ours, it has not been sufficient simply to call oneself an "American." Ethnically, it means little in a nation of immigrants. The universe of compatriots is simply too large, too diverse, to be meaningful on a level that imparts a sense of personal or group identity.

The term "American" has currency/meaning, perhaps not only, but certainly primarily, in the sphere of politics and international relations, when "American" is intended to evoke some sort of esprit des corps to accomplish a political objective, or sets the group apart from citizens of the rest of the world and their nation-states, with their different histories, systems of government and interests and policies, both domestically and internationally. For this very reason, "American" has increased resonance in times of national crisis or war.

But in day-to-day matters, there is the long-standing practice in the U.S. that the nation's many and disparate ethnic groups name themselves for their geographic points of origin -- or those of their ancestors -- as "hyphenated Americans": "Italian-American," "Irish-American," "Polish-American," "Chinese-American," "Cuban-American." In fact, it remains a practice -- most notably in Italian families -- to refer to themselves as "Italians," regardless of how many generations they may be removed from Italy.

The label "African-Amercan" is in keeping with this tradition. Folks who have a problem with it are simply employing a double standard. Doubtless, few, if any, of them would presume to take any other ethnic group to task for their misguided, "ignorant" approach to self-identification.

"African-American" refers to the relatively few black Africans who arrived in the original 13 colonies as free men and women or indentured servants in the days of the U.S.'s earliest settlement by non "native peoples," and primarily those who survived the Middle Passage as human chattel and their descendants. Because of the circumstances of our capture, confinement and deculturation, most of us cannot trace our ancestry back to specific nations as can those early Europeans who came to this country, or as the many waves of immigrants thereafter. We cannot claim a specific nation, so we claim our continent of origin, Africa.

Who else legitimately can use the label is up for debate. I generally do not use the term to refer to black Caribbean-Americans as African-American. While their ancestors, indeed, survived the Middle Passage, it is far more useful to refer to them as "Jamaican-American," etc. The general rule in the matter of ethnic self-identification is "the more specific, the better." Again, "African-American" is nonspecific by necessity, not by choice. Nor are immigrants from the African continent generally referred to as "African-Amercans" -- for the same reason. Likewise, they are "Ethiopian-Americans," "Nigerian-Americans," etc. Again, the more specific, the better. Because most people naturally have a sense of pride in their homelands (nations of origin), the issue of African immigrants calling themselves African-Americans doesn't usually arise -- unless it is a matter of filling out government forms, which generally do not provide nation-of-origin choices on forms. Perhaps because of the concept of race and race relations in this nation's history, it is deemed sufficient to determine who is black and who isn't (except for Hispanic black folks, who may choose "Latino" on Census forms.)

Non-black Africans, like Teresa Heinz Kerry, most do not qualify as African-Americans in any case. They can be Mozambiquan-American, South African-American, even Portuguese-American, but most certainly NOT African-American. Like all other immigrants to this nation, they can be identified by their countries of origin.

There are other, more political and ideological reasons for the use of the term, but this explanation should suffice for now. deeceevoice 16:22, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also deleted:

"African Americans are seen as the most oppressed and disadvantaged racial group in North America, along with Native Americans and Hispanics. African-American males are more likely to be imprisoned or sentenced to death than any other demographic group, especially between the ages of 20 and 39. In addition, African American public school students are most likely to be assigned to special-education classes or get suspended or expelled from school. Female African-American public school students make the lowest SAT scores of any demographic group."

Where the hell does this fit into a definition of the term? I checked "Italian American." There's only a passing reference to the stereotype of this group and their connections with organized crime. Native Americans -- there's no reference to their I.Q. scores or high alcoholism (or Irish-Americans either, for that matter, with regard to highly disproportionate rates of alcoholism) or poverty. We get this crap and a sidebar reference to notable African-Americans. Italian-Americans get a pass on the Mafia, drug running and racketeering and a listing of prominent Italian-Americans on the same page. This is absolute crap. So, out it goes. Period. deeceevoice 18:07, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Should we mention that similar terms are not used to describe racial groups in countries where dual nationality is permitted? In Britain African-British would mean someone with citizenship of both an African country and Britain, just as French-British would mean someone with citizenship of France and Britain. -- Chris Q 11:46, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No. IMO, it is irrelevant. What is under discussion is a label describing African-Americans -- not the British. Their naming patterns are not at all relevant to this discussion. What IS relevant, however, are the points I've raised about the American custom of "hyphenated Americans." When I have an opportunity, I intend to restate what I've written in "Discussion" about that and other matters. I seem to be the only African-American particpating in this discussion, and I appear to have a better grasp of the rationales behind the name in the first place. There is a lot of discussion in the article why folks think the term is silly -- and in this discussion, for example, the astoundingly idiotic charge (from someone who has demonstrated a profound absence of knowledge of African-American culture) that African-Americans are too "ignorant" of our own heritage to know what ethnic group to claim correctly. Therefore we don't "deserve" to use the term "African." But there is precious little in explication of the appellation. But rest assured I will do so after I dispense with a couple of very pressing deadlines. deeceevoice 13:47, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, though this does affect non-American's perception of the term. To people from countries where hyphenated nationalities represent dual citizenships (which I think might be most English-speaking countries outside the USA) it sounds as if it means "not completely American", which is obviously not what it means in the USA at all. -- Chris Q 15:41, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And that is precisely why some INTELLIGENT discussion of the phenomenon of hyphenated Americans, as I've already pointed out, is a glaring omission from this piece. It seems clear many of this article's authors are more preoccupied with stating in pseudo-objective language their varied and several objections to the term and "ranting" about black folks, rather than explaining why the term "African-Amercan" exists. Which is fine. The intellectual dishonesty, hostility and and outright ignorance with which these "contributors" have approached the subject under discussion do Misplaced Pages a disservice. I'll simply explain it myself employing the wording I've already used to explain the phenomenon in this "discussion." That should clear up any confusion on the part of non-Americans -- and shut up some of the obviously mentally challenged "contributors" to and commentators on this article. deeceevoice 16:11, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)