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Revision as of 16:56, 30 May 2006

Proposals and arguments by involved editors

Fishhead64

I endorse the proposal made by Richardshusr that articles specifically dealing with aspects of the Roman Catholic Church be titled “Roman Catholic Church and x," with term “Roman Catholic Church” appearing at the first mention in the article, and acceptance of the use of the term “Catholic Church” subsequently. My rationale for this position is as follows:

1. Ambiguity:I accept that the institution headed by the Bishop of Rome refers to itself as the “Catholic Church,” and that it is popularly known as such. However, as the articles Catholicism, One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and Catholic Church (disambiguation) demonstrate, this term is by no means unambiguous. The ambiguity has its origin in sectarian differences over the definition. No one claims that the denomination recognising papal supremacy isn't Catholic - all the modifier "Roman" does is identify the institution as consisting of Christians in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Self-definition does not exhaust all available definitions, and if allowed to prevail it will exert a POV that denies the claims of other denominations to be constituent parts of the Catholic Church, as they understand the term to mean.
2. Self-identity: The term “Roman Catholic Church” is, in fact, one used by the institution itself, especially in dialogue with other Catholic denominations (e.g., the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission). It therefore cannot be legitimately claimed that the term is repugnant to the institution, or somehow does not constitute an element of its self-identity.
3. Historicity: The claim is made that the institution has “always” referred to itself as the Catholic Church, and hence competing claims should not compel the institution to alter its self-identity. This argument would have greater force if the institution itself didn’t use the modifier Roman Catholic under certain circumstances, as noted above. In any event, exclusive claims to the title “Catholic” were already negated in the Great Schism – the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox denominations have always referred to themselves as the Catholic Church. In the English-speaking world, the Reformation likewise introduced a new reality. Some denominations claimed to be constituents of the Catholic Church, while not recognising the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. This is not the place to debate what constitutes a definition of “Catholic.” Suffice to say, if there wasn’t a disagreement about the marks of Catholicism, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
4. Minority views: The claim is made that the designation “Catholic Church” refers to a minority of denominations, whose claims are so fringe that they should not prevail over the claims of the 2-billion strong Roman Communion. To this, two points must be made:
   1. Counting the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Nestorians, Anglicans, Old Catholics, Ecumenical Catholics, etc., I would reckon that there are at least half a billion Christians who could lay claim to being members of the Catholic Church.
   2. And even if there weren’t these numbers, even if one simply wanted to restrict the designation “Catholic Church” to those denominations which explicitly use the term in their title (which, by discounting self-designation, is in itself a pretty blatant POV), those minority claims should not be negated, especially when there is a perfectly acceptable, non-derogatory, unambiguous, widely-known alternative.
5. Naming policy: Although I acknowledge that, in popular parlance, “Catholic Church” is likely used more frequently than “Roman Catholic Church,” for reasons of ambiguity I think the more precise name should pertain. In accordance with WP naming conventions, the term “Roman Catholic Church” is not “unreasonably ambiguous” – everyone knows what it means, and it can only mean one thing. I do not object to redirecting “CC and x” to “RCC and x,” provided that a dab heading be placed on articles when appropriate.

Conclusion: I completely respect the desire of some editors to affirm the unbroken claims of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome. Nobody wants to undermine the Roman Communion's claim to being a Catholic Church, merely to challenge its exclusive proprietary claim to being the Catholic Church, bar others - as though their self-definitions were of no consequence, or were false, or were mistaken or misleading in some way. The reality is that pluralism exists and therefore creates ambiguity. The reality is that there is more than one group that self-identifies as the Catholic Church, a fact recognised even by the Roman Communion by concessions made in its self-designation. Likewise, WP also needs to establish a reasonable way of acknowledging diverse claims and ambiguous definitions, regardless of what individual editors may think of their legitimacy. The title "Roman Catholic Church" represents a compromise position, one that admittedly may not make everyone happy, but one that acknowledges a real, post-Reformation-world situation - namely that there exists a Catholic Church in communion with Rome, and Catholic Churches (as they identify themselves) who are not. There is a problem, but it is easily soluble. The term Roman Catholic Church is unambiguous, it is one understood by everyone, it recognises the existence of other traditions' claims to being Catholic, and it is part of the Roman Communion's own self-identity. As such, it addresses all possible problems and objections, and is a solution which is truly neutral. Fishhead64 01:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur, but I am opposed to the term CC being changed to RCC in the rest of the article. Why is the opposition exclusive to “the Catholic Church”, and not the use of “the Churh”? The same arguments apply as catholic churches are a subset of the larger churches set. Highlighting in the initial paragraph the controversy surrounding the term "catholic" and how its use responds to "simplicity and clarity" is sufficient. We may also want to mention the COMMON USE of the term "catholics", along with terms like, orthodox, evangelical, or anglican. This common use is alien to the arguments mentioned in the controversy and reflects the general wisdom and practicality in spoken language.Cgonzalezdelhoyo 19:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments

Catholic Church as a disambiguation page

I've been browsing through many articles related to the Catholic Church, and I think some of the mess was produced by an unfortunate choice at the beginning: making a full redirect from to . Most of the debate seems to focus on challenging/defending the claim that Benedict XVI, or his predecessors, are the true head of the Only Catholic Church; i.e. Peter's Primacy.--- The redirect is a waste of a useful name. Perhaps the simplest solution would be using as a disambiguation page, pointing to the several articles under this umbrella. (when it was assumed it was Catholic by definition), (under Benedict XVI), (under Benedict), (under Elizabeth II), etc.--- Louie 16:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Good luck with that :) For the record, I agree...but a glance at the recent archives will reveal that this view did not prevail. The current state of affairs was considered a compromise between those who wanted what you suggest and those who wanted Roman Catholic Church to be renamed Catholic Church. Fishhead64 00:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity?

It seems to me that in most contexts, the term "Catholic Church" can only refer to one entity or group of people, so it's not really ambiguous. Just to name a few possibilities: "CC canon law", "CC liturgy", "CC theology", "CC hierarchy", "CC lay apostolate" all seem clear to me. However, if you think that say "CC liturgy" is ambiguous, how about creating a dab template to go at the top of all CC articles stating that some view the "Catholic Church" in a wider sense, and pointing to article(s) about that?

Also, if "Catholic Church" is ambiguous and considered POV, why are there not similar arguments over at "Unity Church" and "Apostolic Church"? Or at "Orthodox Church"? Those names also seem to make a theological claim that others dispute. But most people accept them as names that have evolved to a identify a theo-ecological niche. The exclusivist claims are disputed, not the identifying name. Gimmetrow 16:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)