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• "Gujarat minorities facing 'marginalisation': Activists — Ahmedabad — City — The Times of India". Indiatimes. Retrieved 2 August 2010.

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The following content was recently removed from this article, should it be restored? Darkness Shines (talk) 06:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

These attacks have been described by Gyanendra Pandey as pogroms and a new form of state terrorism, and that these pogroms are not riots but "organized political massacres". According to Paul Brass the only conclusion from the evidence which is available points to a methodical Anti-Muslim pogrom which was carried out with exceptional brutality and was highly coordinated.

References

1. Pandey, Gyanendra (2005). Routine violence: nations, fragments, histories. Stanford University Press. pp. 187–188. ISBN 978-0804752640. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
2. Brass, Paul R. (2005). The Production of Hindu-Muslim Violence in Contemporary India. University of Washington Press. p. 388. ISBN 978-0295985060. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

• Comment: Just to be clear, the content was removed from the lead of the article not from the body and the content was not present in the body, Lead is the summary of body and if few editors want to overlook this simple logic then nothing can be done.-sarvajna (talk) 18:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. If it is covered in multiple highly reliable sources, it can be included. I don't think the 2 authors you mentioned have enough credibility for such exceptional claim. neo (talk) 19:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

There are no shortage of sources which call this incident a pogrom, help yourself to a few Darkness Shines (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I have do agree with DS. We have multiple gold standard academic sources giving a similar picture. See e.g.Barbara D. Metcalf; Thomas R. Metcalf (28 September 2006). A Concise History of Modern India. Cambridge University Press. pp. 299–. ISBN 978-1-139-45887-0. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help): "In the first years of the new century, as in the decade before, communal violence accompanied the growing liberalized economy. By far the most serious was the 2002 railway carriage fire at Godhra and the subsequent weeks-long concerted ‘pogrom’ directed against Gujarat’s Muslims..... The Gujarat state government, far from seeking to contain Hindu ‘reprisals’, tacitly connived at the ensuing violence. For three days the police stood idly by as Hindu mobs, led by VHP and BJP activists, using computer printouts from the records of the Ahmedabad municipal corporation, identified Muslim shops and residences, pulled their owners outside, killed the man and raped and killed the women, and then set the buildings afire. From Ahmedabad the violence spread to other Gujarat cities and even into the countryside. Order was restored only when the army was deployed throughout the state. At least 1,000people died and some 150,000 had to take shelter in relief camps.Few Muslims ever returned to the neighbourhoods in which they had originally lived." Dlv999 (talk) 08:03, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

First, the applicability of the word "pogrom" was discussed in detail here as well as on the AFD here. Harping on the same thing again and again is disruptive. I don't wish to repeat my claims again and again. This was not a pogrom, period.

Second, Author's contentious claims are nothing but personal opinions. We must look to balance the weight. Mr T 09:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• Not the same discussion. Moving the article to a name containing pogrom, is not the same as including significant published views in the article (per our WP:NPOV policy) that characterise the events as a pogrom.
• "This was not a pogrom, period." - I believe this comment is characteristic of major POV issues you have with this article. To wit, you believe you know the truth of the events and that your own beliefs about the topic trump what has been published in high quality academic RS. This is not how we write[REDACTED] articles. We should be putting aside our own beliefs. Identifying high quality sources and dispassionately representing what they say. If high quality RS (e.g. books published by distinguished University presses, written by professors in relevant fields) disagree on particular points, then we include the different viewpoints. That is what our WP:NPOV policy says.
• Your final comment is incoherent. Academics published by scholarly presses are the best sources for articles such as this. Please see WP:SOURCES: "Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history..."'; WP:HISTRS:"Historical articles on[REDACTED] should use scholarly works where possible....Historical scholarship is: Books published by academic and scholarly presses by historians"

Currently the article relies to much on primary source journalism from the time of the events. This type of source is not preferred for historical articles (again see WP:HISTRS) and should be phased out and replaced with the kind of scholarship DS is proposing. If there are alternate views in high quality academic sources, of course they should all be included per WP:NPOV. But as it stands trying to keep scholarly sources out of the article that is largely based on lower quality sources is simply not tenable. Dlv999 (talk) 10:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• It is not what MrT believes or some other author believes, this cannot be called a Pogrom unless it is proven. Did any court in India or International held the Gujarat or Indian government responsible for the violence?. There was an investigation against the Chief Minister for his alleged involvement in the violence, the Investigation team did not find any evidence. You provided a 2006 source above which is outdated because it has not taken into consideration the SIT report(2010) which did not find any fault with the state government.-sarvajna (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, it doesn't matter what I believe or anyone believes unless the allegation is proven in a court of law. Mr T 11:25, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Dlv: I really don't know what to say, if your mind is already made-up. This IS about the same issue. It may not be identical but the refutations are going to be the same.

If I had a bucket and showed you the bucket would you still ask for a newspaper article to prove that I had a bucket? That was not a pogrom because if it were majority of the sources wouldn't call it by any other name. They would clearly mention that POLICE connived at all this. The fact of the matter is, they didn't connive (look it up) even though some would have liked to see that. I reiterate, I doubt anything is more credible than the Verdict, presented by a Judiciary committee in a Court of Law, basing on the findings of a Supreme court appointed investigative body which were supported by years of investigation and literally thousands of testimonies. No charge could be brought against Narendra Modi. He was in a way exonerated by the report presented by the Supreme court Investigative Team. As Dharma wrote here, ″academic research of any superior quality cannot replace a judicial decision″. I don't believe that the article currently depends very much on primary sources. Authorities imposed a curfew in Gujarat they didn't sit back and watch idly. A good many people (mostly Hindus) were punished (sentenced to life in prison). If this was a ′pogrom′ then I dare say every random act of communal vengeance is a pogrom.

About Barbara Metcalf and her book:

1. In the same book Barbara Metcalf calls the violence following Babri Masjid demolition an anti-muslim ′pogrom′, that is a far cry from violence, let alone a real pogrom. Plurality of Hindus died too. Don't forget Indian Mujahideen a banned outfit carried out terrorist attacks on Hindus citing demolition of Babri Mosque as a justification. How is it a pogrom then?
2. About the cause of Godhra Train Fire, she very brashly proclaims, "it was almost certainly not deliberately set by Muslims on the station platform, as Hindus frequently alleged". There is not a shred of doubt in her mind. She had already independently precluded the possibility of veracity in the allegations of Hindu witnesses before the investigations themselves were over. That reeks of an utterly inauspicious prejudice and a doctrinaire attitude.

It seems as though she, in 2006, had more access to the info and evidences than the authorities of India did. She has clearly done it on purpose and I am not sure if that purpose is neutral or penchant-free. This one-sided focus on Anti-muslim violence while ignoring the plights of other faiths really strikes me as conspicuous to say the least. Mr T 11:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Let us leave aside the intentions of the author. In 2006, the author might have made some assumptions, many of the important verdicts like the verdict in Naroda Patiya massacre case the Godhra train burning case came after 2010, so we cannot use this outdated source.-sarvajna (talk) 11:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

"this cannot be called a Pogrom unless it is proven." We have high quality academic sources that describe the event as a pogrom. WP:NPOV, a core policy of our encyclopaedia sates that we should represent " all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." These academics in appropriate fields that have been published by distinguished University presses are significant views published in RS on the topic. If this article is to comply with core policies and principles of the encyclopaedia this viewpoint must be included. You can't really get around that. We can't say that it is a fact unless there is agreement in RS on the point, but the text under discussion is for the material to be correctly attributed to the academic. Your point about the date of the publication of the source has some validity. But here we must be consistant. If you want to prohibit all sources prior to 2006 or 2010 do it consistently. As I have already pointed out a lot of the sources currently in the article are primary source journalism from the time of the events. Mr T's arguments critiquing academic sources based on his own beliefs on the topic are not arguments that carry any weight at all in Misplaced Pages. The two sources he does cite are journalism. We do not write historical articles based on journalist sources. You cannot cite a piece of journalism to refute what has been written by academics published under scholarly imprints (gold standard sources). Dlv999 (talk) 13:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: In addition to what Neo said, I say the following. Politically organized?? Who was convicted? In India, like other nations, people are presumed innocent unless proven guilty, if no politician is guilty of conspiring then how is it a politically organized massacre? Precisely these sort of unfounded innuendos we are required to bar from inclusion. Darkness Shines is pushing a very specific agenda on multiple articles and discussion boards. From Anti-Muslim pogroms in India‎ to 2002 Gujarat violence to Religious violence in India and so on. This is turning into an unacceptable pattern of persistent POV-pushing. Mr T 07:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Both citations are high quality academic sources: professors in relevant fields published under notable academic imprints. I think the article is suffering from major POV issues and the way to get it back on track is to shift towards these kind of high quality sources and away from the lower quality sources. Dlv999 (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Question: Some have argued the viewpoints expressed in these academic sources should not be included in the article because of WP:WEIGHT. What sources are there of equal quality or better (i.e. at least professor of relevant field published by notable academic press) that dispute the viewpoint in the sources under discussion? Dlv999 (talk) 13:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I was directed here by the RFC bot. After reading the article and discussion I have to say that that the Stanford University Press and University of Washington Press are top notch academic sources. In the absence of compelling academic or other RS saying this was explicitly not a pogrom, they should be used in the article and lead. Further, the lack of criminal convictions of authorities is not dispositive. Pogroms, as I understand them, are violent attacks by a majority against a minority often with official inaction or support. Hence official inaction (lack of criminal convictions) doesn't rule out pogrom. I agree with Dlv999. Something has gone wrong at an article when solid academic reliable sources are dumped. Capitalismojo (talk) 13:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Thats a sensible comment Capitalismojo. I have been asking this question of mine at various forums wherever this issue has been dragged by editors but everyone has refrained from answer me. Probably you wont. My question is; what is a pogrom? Your understanding is that the attacks are often with official inaction or support. Is this a universal definition of pogrom or are other definitions also available? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 15:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

RS saying this was explicitly not a pogrom - We don't include radical claims into articles based on absence of word-for-word negation. Majority of RSes don't call it as ′pogrom′ that is intrinsically saying something. You cannot demand that reliable sources specifically claim it was not a "pogrom". They won't do that. What they would do is call it by the right name and that's what majority of RSes are doing.
official inaction (lack of criminal convictions) doesn't rule out pogrom - official inaction? But my point is, that the administration, the police were not inactive.
lack of criminal convictions of authorities is not dispositive - but the verdict from the court of law is, I think. That this was a pogrom is an unsubstantiated fringe opinion and that is why measuring DUE weight is relevant. Something has gone wrong at an article when personal opinions of authors and syntheses of sources are callously included. Mr T 15:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Here are two more very recent academic sources describing the events as "pogrom".

1. "The Political Logic of Ethnic Violence: The Anti-Muslim Pogrom in Gujarat, 2002" (PDF). Politics & Society. 40: 483–516. December 2012. doi:10.1177/0032329212461125. Retrieved 19/06/2013. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
2. Parvis Ghassem-Fachandi (8 April 2012). Pogrom in Gujarat: Hindu Nationalism and Anti-Muslim Violence in India. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-1-4008-4259-9. Retrieved 19 June 2013.

It is simply not credible for editors to keep making unsupported claims that this view of the topic is a "fringe opinion" in light of the source evidence that has been presented. Standford University Press, University of Washington Press, Cambridge University Press, Princeton University Press. These are among the most prestigious academic publishing imprints you will find anywhere. They are not in the business of publishing "unsubstantiated fringe opinion". Dlv999 (talk) 07:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Here some more news reports(my emphases):

1. :

   The Supreme-Court-appointed Special Investigation Team, which submitted a closure report on the probe into the Zakia Jafri petition levelling serious charges against Narendra Modi and 62 others in connection with the 2002 communal riots, has not found any evidence of the Chief Minister having promoted enmity among various communities on religious grounds.

   In the section dealing with Mr. Modi in its 541-page report, the SIT on the contrary claimed that the Chief Minister had repeatedly appealed to the people for peace and had also taken due care for the rehabilitation and medical facilities for the riot victims in the relief camps.

2. ″SIT, which recently submitted a status report to the Supreme Court, has found no substantial evidence to show that Modi allowed the riots to rage on.
   Sources said the SIT found no substance in petitioner Zakia Jafri's allegations that there was dereliction of duty on Modi's part.

   Zakia is the widow of Congress MP Ehsan Jafri, who was killed along with others during a mob attack on Gulbarg housing society in Ahmedabad in 2002.
   Zakia had alleged the state administration failed to discharge its constitutional duties during the riots. Her complaint had identical charges against others, including cabinet ministers and MLAs.

   In March, Modi was questioned by the SIT after the Supreme Court asked for an investigation into Jafri's complaint.″

3. The allegations are biased and baseless.

   ″Putting up a strong defence of the Gujarat Chief Minister, Mr Advani said in his 60 years of political life he has not known any of his colleague “so consistently, so viciously maligned by opponents as Narendra Modi”.″

4. SIT-representative R. S. Jamuar said in response to the much-touted "appeal":

"In comparison to the complaint as defined in Criminal Procedure Code(CrPC), this (the FIR) is not at all a complaint, it's a piece of waste paper to be thrown away, It's a fiction or novel written by 4-5 persons and complainant Zakia has no knowledge about anything written in it."

This sort of mudslinging and allegations are a part and parcel of a POLITICAL game. Misplaced Pages, fortunately, is not part of that political circle. Mr T 08:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

As previously discussed journalism is not a good source for articles on contentious historical events, especially in this case where academic sources cite the "inflammatory" press reports as a significant factor in the events themselves (see e.g. citation 1. pg 486 in my comment above). Myself and DS have cited only academic scholarship and I would ask you to try to keep to a similar standard of sourcing. Dlv999 (talk) 09:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

If these were op-eds or personal opinion then your comment would have had some merit. But these are essentially analysis of SIT reports and quotes from the representatives. What's wrong with that? In fact what you think is "academic" is not neutral, I would argue. Mr T 09:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

My comments are based on Misplaced Pages policy and guidance, which I have cited to you, which tells us to base historical articles on academic scholarship, and that journalism is not academic scholarship. Dlv999 (talk) 09:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

We are straying away from the main issue

It is the allegation of State terrorism. These sort of outdated, prejudicial personal commentaries became even more irrelevant after the Supreme Court appointed investigative team's report was put forward. That accusation was a personal perspective of the "author" and what he thought was going on. He thinks India is a sponsor of "state terrorism". To frame India as a sponsor of State terrorism based on people's personal opinion is intolerable. As User:Dharmadhyaksha wrote at an AFD: "A historian doesn’t decide on whether a act is terrorism or not. He might opine on whether it is terrorism or not. A judicial system decides on whether it is terrorism or not."(emphasis in original) This is exactly the sort of scandalmongering Misplaced Pages tends to actively avoid. Mr T 08:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Writings of a professor of a relevant field published by a prestigious University press in an area of his competence is not regarded by Misplaced Pages as "prejudicial personal commentaries". In fact this is just the kind of source that we can and should be including in our article according to our WP:NPOV policy, which tells us to include "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources".

There is a substantial body of high quality academic scholarship discussing state government involvement in the violence. We have seen that published academics refer to the violence as a "pogrom". Gyanendra Pandey uses the term "State-sponsored terrorism" (text amended per DS comment below). I think the different ways the events have been characterized should be discussed as an aspect of the topic in our article, according to the high quality RS that have been cited in this discussion. I would say that what is more important than the semantic debate is the actual substance of what these sources are saying about the violence and the state involvement in the violence. Dlv999 (talk) 09:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

It is state terrorism, not state sponsored terrorism. And it is not the only source which says this. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:51, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Even worse than State-sponsored terrorism. Mr T 11:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Here is another up to date academic source to add to the list:

"Unless later research disproves the proposition, the existing reports give us every reason to believe the riots in Gujarat were actually full-blooded pogroms. Two common reference sources define pogrom as follows:

An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews. (www.dictionary.com)

A mob attack, either approved or condoned by authorities, against the persons and property of a religious, racial, or national minority. (www.britanica.com)

After the train was torched, the state made no attemot to preven, or stop, revenge killings. State police looked the other way, as gangs murdered scores of Muslims with remarkable ease. 7 The statements of NGOs most closely associated with Gujarat state government, run by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), openly supported anti-Muslim violence. According to the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP), the BJP government did what was absolutely necessary: namely, allow Hindu retaliation against the Muslims, including those who had nothing to do with the mob that had originally torched the train in Ghodhra.8"(Atul Kohli; Prerna Singh (2013). Routledge Handbook of Indian Politics. Routledge. p. 157. ISBN 978-0-415-77685-1. Retrieved 20 June 2013.) Dlv999 (talk) 18:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Citation needed?

Why has a CN tag been added to the lede? That line is already supported in the body of the article, the woefully inadequate and short Attacks on Muslims section. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:10, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Controversies on the riots

Why is the Atrocities against women a subsection of this section? It ought to be a subsection of Attacks on Muslims section, so I am going to move it to there. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:44, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

DS, this is POV pushing, I have changed it a bit .-sarvajna (talk) 03:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

One more question,In this edit, is this a governemnt estimation or estimations of some independent organization. I do not have access to the source. -sarvajna (talk) 03:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually I have removed your edits from aftermath section as the same thing is present under security failure, feel free to revert. -sarvajna (talk) 03:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

No. From the look of it, I don't think that the source is quoting the official estimate. If it had, it would have made it very clear. The source says, "Under indulgent gaze of the state government, and against a backdrop of ransacked houses and desecrated temples, at least 250 women and girls were brutally gang-raped and burned alive."

Although the current wording in the article is

"It is estimated_A that at least 250 girls and women had been gang raped and then_B burned to death."

On A. It doesn't frame it as an official estimate.
On B. it does not say that the girls were first raped and then the same girls were burned alive. After reading the source it reasonable to think that it is giving a collective figure of those who were either burned alive or gang-raped. Mr T 07:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

No, in this case it isn't. I realize English is probably not your first language, but you too could please look up the meaning of "and". The sentence is quite unambiguous. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"Testimony heard by the committee stated that" ← is it Citizens’ Tribunal? Those long emotive quotes are needed, I presume? Mr T 06:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Since when is an "official estimate"[REDACTED] policy? This is an academic source which says exactly what I wrote and which you keep changing, so stop. I told you in my editsuammary to look at p147, have you? But as you feel news outlets are better than academic source here Most of the rape victims were burnt alive Darkness Shines (talk) 09:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

If it is not an official estimate then you can mention it "According to ....". -sarvajna (talk) 11:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Don't put words in my mouth please I never said, I "feel news outlets are better than academic sources". I only opposed labeling news sources ′unreliable′ out of hand. I occasionally argue that the author is making personal claims which is based on illegal reports and are diametrically opposed to the official findings and verdict from a court of law. Thus it might not be logically sound to frame those as sources for extraordinary assertions of fact.

  I didn't delete the estimate. I just made an observation that it's not correct to frame it as an assertion of fact.
  About BBC report, it doesn't say 250 women were raped. It was published on 16 April, 2002. So it might be out-dated. Mr T 15:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Dear sweet god almighty, the BBC link was just to show you how wrong you are, did you not get that? Read what FPaS wrote, and then self revert. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

External Links

Somebody please conform the "external links" section to WP:EL. There are multiple links which are already present as references. If I delete or add anything, there is possibility that I will be attacked, or vilified. I don't want that. Hence somebody please do it in a neutral manner. Mr T 07:19, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Tag, why

This article is a joke, I have explained in previous sections why we have NPOV and factual issues, until such a time as these are resolved I expect people to abide by policy and not remove the tag. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:11, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

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