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Revision as of 08:32, 26 June 2013 editBobby fletcher (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,468 edits Proposal to add news report← Previous edit Revision as of 02:03, 29 June 2013 edit undoTheBlueCanoe (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,737 edits Tagging issues: new sectionNext edit →
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:Weird. That press release (1073) quotes a Chinese government official making accusations against Falun Gong. I wonder if the author intended to use another press release from the same year (1071), which quotes an NGO contributor on the human rights abuses. Either way, there are better references out there. ] 22:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC) :Weird. That press release (1073) quotes a Chinese government official making accusations against Falun Gong. I wonder if the author intended to use another press release from the same year (1071), which quotes an NGO contributor on the human rights abuses. Either way, there are better references out there. ] 22:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

== Tagging issues ==

Just reverted three edits for following reasons:
* ] gives some guidance on this. A lot of introductory sections don't have citations because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, and is written with greater generality. I suggest that if there's a specific claim in the lead section that is likely to be challenged, then we can add a citation there.
* I don't see any particular reason why this section should be expanded. There are several other sections that would seem to merit greater expansion than this one, but need to make sure things don't become indiscrinimate. See also ]: "the undue weight policy requires that negative criticism be presented in a way that does not draw excessive attention to the negative criticism." This type of content should probably be discussed to ensure proportionality.
* - Two of these terms were already linked in the article. I'll add back religion in China. Also be careful of ]: "Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." You can't do that in 'see also' sections. ] 02:03, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

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Are there any notable studies about Falun Gong's views about aliens and civilisations before human?

Though I remember there are several times where this ides was mentioned in books like Zhuan Falun and some of Li Hongzhi's teachings(such as Oklo), this area seemed to be largely neglected in this article--Inspector (talk) 14:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


Other editors have looked into this before, and I understand that extraterrestrial life is only mentioned once or twice in passing in Zhuan Falun, meaning it doesn't make up a significant part of the teachings. Another editor also once looked at how much weight to give these teachings based on their appearance in the most authoritative books on falungong beliefs:
Ownby's 300-page volume on Falun Gong devotes two sentences to Li's statements on aliens. Penny's book, which is a much more single-minded study of all aspects of Falun Gong practice and beliefs, devotes one page out of ~250 to the subject.
According to Penny, a much more important concept than the existence of aliens is falungong's ideas about other forms of life pervading the universe—namely gods, buddhas and deities.
I can't find any mention of Oklo in the text of Zhuan Falun, but I looked through Penny's writings, and see that there is an indirect reference to it. There's a short section of Li's book where he mentions several apparently ancient artifacts to make a point that civilisation extends further back than historians and archeologists generally allow. Penny writes that "determining whether Li's contentions about certain historical artifacts or natural phenomena are correct or not is to misinterpret the nature of teachings...Li's writings should be viewed as religious texts." The tradition he's playing into here "echoes ideas present in Chinese religions for centuries," especially those of Buddhism and medieval Daoism, which hold that there are multiple ages of human civilisation that undergo cyclical periods of renewal and decline.—Zujine|talk 00:31, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Due to the internet blocking I cannot reach the Zhuan Falun text by now, but I guess Li Hongzhi had mentioned something like "a 2 billion-year nuclear reactor that cannot be built by today's technology".--Inspector (talk) 02:16, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Here is some pieces from the first chapter of Chinese Zhuan Falun:"非洲有个加蓬共和国有铀矿石,这个国家比较落后,自己不能够提炼铀,把它出口到先進国家。... 最後證實這個鈾礦是個大型核反應堆,而且布局非常合理,我們現在的人都不可能 ... 是二十億年前,它運轉了五十萬年。 "(Rough Translation: In Africa there is a country called Gabonese Republic; it is a developing country not able to refine uranium ore and exporting it to developed countries...It was at last confirmed that this uranium ore is a big nuclear reactor with perfect structure that cannot be build by us now ... It had run for 500 thousand years in 2 billion years ago).--Inspector (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I can understand that certain disputable texts should not be overly criticized. Though, what was currently written in this article about this view about "echoes ideas present in Chinese religions for centuries," presented in Penny's writings?--Inspector (talk) 02:34, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Penny's book, which is a much more single-minded study of all aspects of Falun Gong practice and beliefs, devotes one page out of ~250 to the subject. To be clear, that's a quote from User:Homunculus. Actually, this understates the amount of coverage Penny devotes to Li's alien and related beliefs in the book: the index indicates that aliens are discussed on pages 91-92, 130-132, 147-49, see also UFOs discussed on 126, 130-133, 148. There's also quite a lot of quotation and analysis on his concepts of giant pythons (p.101), evil snake spirits (p.108) and other "unusual" beliefs relative to the "persecution" that our articles like to emphasize, on Penny's chapters dedicated to Li Hongzhi and Zhuan Falun. It would be less undue to place some mention of them on the articles there. @Inspector: It's well known that Falun Gong's English translations of its texts are crafted towards its political goals, so they exclude a lot of the stuff that would be treated skeptically by the press and non-Chinese-literate scholars. Shrigley (talk) 05:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know about the translation.--Inspector (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Given that there's a lot of misinformation around falungong, be careful not to make erroneous statements that could further misunderstandings. The leading scholars on falungong haven't said anything about its english translations having any kind of "political goals." There are reputable scholars who read both English and Chinese and who have read both versions of Li's writings, and their findings don't at all support your statement. Penny spends more time discussing the slight translation differences between the three English editions of Zhuan Falun than he does elaborating Li's views on aliens, and yet he makes no mention of any form of manipulation in the translation—to the contrary, he notes that the texts are translated assiduously. The biggest inconsistency he mentions is the translation of "Shijian fa" into "in-triple-world," which is apparently because they were treating "shijian" like "sanjie".

I also checked H's observation for myself. Penny indeed devotes about one page (<1.5 pages) to explaining falungong's beliefs on aliens. He spends another half page to a page on other people's writings on extraterrestrials and speculating about what kind of discourses may have been influential in China in the 1980s and 1990s. All the other mentions from the index are tangential, one-word mentions outside the context of really explaining falungong's beliefs.

Certainly, Penny's book dedicates relatively little space to the persecution, because Penny's study is a textual analysis of falungong's books, not a general overview of all things falungong. The history of the practise and the origins of persecution are given an excellent introduction in the first chapter, but that's about it. Since this article is an overview with only one small section on falungong's central beliefs and teachings, it should remain focused on the most central beliefs, not the ones that certain editors find "unusual" or sensational.—Zujine|talk 15:33, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Eastern Lightning

Are there any known ties between Falungong and the doomsday cult Eastern Lightning?? This cult seems to be also engaging in anti-CCP rhetoric, and called the Chinese government the "red dragon" of the Book of Revelations, a term also used by Falungong's Nine Commentaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.174.128.66 (talk) 09:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't think so. They share some things in common in terms of the treatment their members have received at the hands of Chinese authorities, and it's not entirely surprising that they've adopted some similar anti-government rhetoric. But in terms of doctrinal similarities or lineage ties, there's no connection. Interesting though. TheBlueCanoe 12:35, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


Proposal to add news report

Here's the report: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Falun-Gong-Derided-as-Authoritarian-Sect-by-2783949.php It's from a mainstream news outlet, appears to be notable, reliable, and relevant to the subject. According to talk archive there is a tremendious effort by Falun Gong disciple to circle the wagon here to push POV, so I am proceeding cautiousely and requesting adminstrative oversight. Bobby fletcher (talk) 18:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

This is an old debate, and one that's been hashed out at length before. Long story short: these three individuals represent an extreme fringe. One is an undergraduate student. Their arguments have been addressed and discredited by serious scholars, and so highlighting their criticisms in this manner is giving their opinions vastly undue weight. There is already a section in the article that addresses the 'cult' debate, and the role that a handful of western anti-cultists had in legitimizing the Chinese government's discourses, but the views of mainstream scholars should be given prominence.
If you want to dispute my reversion at ANI, please do. I will happily draw their attention to evidence of your conflict of interest. —Zujine|talk 21:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Putting personal issues aside ( and for the record I have no COI vis-à-vis China's Communist party or Falun Gong), I do agree that any reliably sourced content which discusses FG in terms like "cult" or "millennial movement" is branded as "communist propaganda" and rapidly removed. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 23:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
@AgadaUrbanit, I will support your opinion if this news report belongs or not, and edit suggestion you may have.
Bobby fletcher (talk) 03:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Don't include. Event was not notable. This is a summary article, not a list of every conference and event where someone has expressed views on Falun Gong.TheBlueCanoe 11:42, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I wrote this on ANI, but since that's not the right venue for content disputes, I'll repost here:

  • The San Francisco Chronicle article is a reliable source for the claim that these three individuals presented their opinions at an American Family Foundation conference in Seattle in 2000. However...
  • When deciding whether this should be included in the article, reliability of the source is not the only concern. The notability of this event, especially when stacked up against the mountains of academic literature on falungong, is important to take into consideration, as is the broader context. If we include a news article saying three people giving a talk at an obscure conference 13 years ago, it opens the door to include all sorts of irrelevant things.
  • This article is not notable, and the views it presents are fringe views that have been discredited in more serious scholarship on falungong.
  • There are tens of thousands of news articles covering a range of views on falungong, and half a dozen excellent books, as well as journal articles. In order to summarise the views of reliable sources, some level of judgement and discretion is needed. Otherwise the article would become an endless battleground with people vying to have the news article they like included above the rest. To prevent that from occurring, when dealing with contentious debates, we endeavor to use the best sources available--namely high quality books dedicated to falungong, or academic journal articles, etc.
  • In the books and journal articles written on falungong, experts analysed why it was that a small number of Western anti-cultists were so eager to support the Chinese government's claims that falungong was a 'cult', and they explored the impact of that on helping to legitimise the government's human rights abuses and blunt the appeal of falungong to western audiences. That kind of secondary source analysis is worth including (and it had been included in various forms), but shouldn't be given undue weight. (An an example, Ian Johnson—who won a Pulitzer for his coverage of falungong—notes that falungong does not share the characteristics of a 'cult,' but that some members of the West's anti-cult movement had "a vested interest in attacking new groups" in order to keep their field of study relevant).
  • Back to the SF Chronicle article: the field of 'anti-cult' studies is a relatively obscure and marginalised one. The conference where these people presented was not an academic conference. None of the three 'experts' cited in the article held tenured professorships; one was an undergraduate student, another a grad student. None have published books on falungong. Their names don't appear in the bibliographies of the leading academic books on falungong (there are one or two exceptions, and in those cases, they are held up only as examples of how not to do scholarship).
  • Mainstream scholars and experts have thoroughly dismissed the idea that falungong is an 'authoritarian cult.' The views of Singer et al are fringe views on this subject. Mainstream views of real experts, published in academic and other high quality presses, should take precedence.

Also, to Agada Urbanit, I don't think that's true. The article does include discussions of the debate around millennial themes, and also has several places where it addresses—from a neutral POV and using high-quality sources—the 'cult' characterisation, how it's used, and why it may or may not be appropriate.—Zujine|talk 12:06, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Zujine seems to have nailed it here. There are many substantive issues when it comes to inclusion of different types of content. The key at Misplaced Pages is that the article should be written with reference to what the most reliable sources say on the subject. For that we have Ownby, Penny et al., and it will not be necessary for me to here repeat their remarks on the "cult" issue. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
The article's current treatment of the cult issue is unsatisfactory. It quotes journalist Ian Johnson at length for his "common sense" argument that Falun Gong is not a cult ("its members marry outside the group, have outside friends, hold normal jobs..."). However, it fails to quote any professional cult scholars, like Singer, except to deride their work as "legitimizing" the crackdown. The respect towards the anticult movement within academia—an unclear issue, but continuously repeating that they are an "extreme fringe" does not automatically make it true—is not necessary to have their opinions in the article. The issue of whether Falun Gong is a cult is important to cover from the point of view of studying the media battle between Falun Gong and the outside world. The fact that apologist authors like Ownby are forced to grapple with the cult issue - even if his comments, like Johnson's, are based on personal impressions and not an objective psychological checklist like Singer's - means that the question is notable. BTW, the academic field of religious studies is well-known for its postmodernist defenses of what popular opinion nearly unanimously derides as dangerous cults, like Scientology. Wouldn't it be interesting if someone commented on this tendency as it relates to Falun Gong... Shrigley (talk) 18:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

About this: "it fails to quote any professional cult scholars, like Singer" ---- the article quotes several professional scholars from various disciplines, including sociologists, historians, anthropologists, and religious studies experts. Insofar as these scholars have grappled with the 'cult' characterization, the article does a fair job of representing how they discuss it. But generally, they don't give the question very much heed. As David Ownby notes, the issue of whether or not Falun Gong is a cult is simply the wrong question to ask - a 'red herring' he calls it (and frankly, it's asinine). Serious scholars deal with more questions of nuanced, context, and explanation, not labels.

The field of 'cult studies' is a marginalized one whose members have a vested interest in attacking groups as cults. Scholars from other disciplines do not have vested interests of that nature. What's more, Singer has never published anything in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, let alone a book, on Falun Gong, whereas the other experts cited in the article have done so. Singer's allegations against Falun Gong do not hold up against the more rigorous ethnographic or textual research that has been conducted by mainstream scholars. Hence, it is fringe, and hers does not represent a notable point of view. Another admin who was consulted on this pointed out that Singer had difficulty "convincing her professional colleagues that her judgment on cults was valid. She used to give expert testimony in court cases, but at a certain point the courts stopped being receptive to her theories about cult brainwashing." Her criteria for what constitutes a cult (which you call "an objective psychological checklist") is hardly objective, and as Johnson points out, it is so broad that it would encompass virtual every religious tradition on earth. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 03:30, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The initial proposal doesn't have merit. No other actionable suggestions are on the table, and frankly, the article already has several places where it discusses this characterization from a variety of angles. I'm not sure there's anything left to do here. TheBlueCanoe 10:46, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Margaret Singer, found it. She is being sited by secondary sources. Noah Porter mentions her criticism of FG in "Cult and Millennium" conference, see Noah Porter (2003). Falun Gong in the United States: An Ethnographic Study. Universal-Publishers. p. 105. ISBN 978-1-58112-190-2. Retrieved 15 June 2013.. Porter is reciting and summarizing earlier and more in depth reflection on Singer by Schechter, see Danny Schechter (2001). Falun Gong's Challenge to China: Spiritual Practice Or "evil Cult"? : a Report and Reader. Akashic Books. p. 56. ISBN 978-1-888451-27-6. Retrieved 15 June 2013.. Singer appears also notable by her own scholar scientific credentials. I would not object inclusion of her analysis of FG. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 14:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Her "analysis" basically amounts to an interview to the San Francisco Chronicle (13 years ago!). Since that time, scholars have written books and numerous peer reviewed academic journal articles on Falun Gong. They provide analysis that not only fails to support Singer's views, but instead contradicts her positions. It's not hard to figure out how these two sides should be balanced. When describing Falun Gong, it's best to use mainstream views, ideally drawn from books and scholarly journals, etc. Singer doesn't meet any of these criteria. Her statements on Falun Gong were sensational, but fringe. It's really pretty simple.TheBlueCanoe 14:50, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Singer and others in the anti-cult movement (ACM) are mentioned in some books and scholarly articles on falungong not as experts, but mainly as examples of agenda-driven, poor quality research. Their significance is related to the fact that the Chinese government borrowed from (cooperated with?) the American anticult movement to legitimise the government's use of involuntary detention, reprogramming, and other mistreatement against falungong practitioners. Ian Johnson had a few pages written on this in his book, but probably the most detailed article comes from Edelman and Richarson, who write:
The ACM's (anti-cult movement) theories and positions are highly suspect ... most of the claims put forth by the ACM lack emperical verification or general acceptance within the scientific community ... With such an unsavory history, which has included kidnapping, the ACM (anti-cult movement) hardly appears like an objective or reliable source for scientific knowledge. Yet many ideas from the ACM have been taken up by the PRC to create a sense of legitimacy around its campaign against the Falun Gong."
This is how mainstream experts on falungong explain the significance of the ACM as it relates to falungong: as an intellectual fringe whose ideas were used by the Chinese government. That's how it should be presented in this article, and how it is presented currently. If someone wants to expand on this, we could consider including something from the Edelman and Richardson article maybe, but it would very easily lead to undue weight. —Zujine|talk 18:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Singer is dead since 2003, so probably we will not get any new research from her. Also her attitude towards cults was in general extremely negative, which is not surprising considering here academical background. According to sources she had interviewed more than 4000 FG followers, per SF Weekly article Spiritual CULTivation, By Joel P. Engardio Wednesday, Mar 15 2000. This appears as a substantial research effort on her part. Other researchers in the field that don't necessary agree with her mention her contribution to FG studies. Therefore her work in FG field appears notable, per Misplaced Pages rules. I do not see any reason to exclude it. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
You misread. Singer did not interview 4000 falungong followers. She says she's interviewed 4000 of what she calls 'cult members' over the course of her career, but there's actually no indication that she interviewed a single falungong practitioner. Once again, she has no books on falungong, no peer-reviewed publications, and she and her ACM colleagues are mentioned in reputable academic literate on falungong in a very limited, specific, and not entirely flattering context (see above).—Zujine|talk 19:00, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Zujine, you're correct in the following interview she mentions talking to more than 5000 former cult members during her carrier. This is not FG specific number. Singer says she never talked to people who left FG, only to relatives. See Thank you for correction. She mentions she read anything she could find on FG and learned translations of Li Hongzhi's works. She mentions that 75 family members of FG followers called her and talked to her, this is how Porter & Schechter reflect on relatives seeking help, above. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Signer seem pretty credible IMHO. I agree with AgadaUrbanit she is notable. Suggest we look at past edit and bring back references blanked/DE.
Bobby fletcher (talk) 08:30, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

'Notable members'?

Regarding this edit  ; I propose that the section either be deleted, or expanded and integrated elsewhere in the article. I don't particularly have the time or interest for that delicate work right now but there is my view for the consideration of other editors. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 17:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

What would be truly interesting and worth mentioning is if there are members that are independently notable and just happen to practice Falungong. Like, Tom Cruise is famous for his acting and not just his religion. Anyway, the one person mentioned there is not even identifiable: it's just the last name of some anonymous interviewee who took credit for some minor sketchy Falungong media stunt. I've removed it. Shrigley (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

'Odd Reference'

I removed the reference to . Because that reference doesn't indicate atrocities against Falun Gong at all. It mentions that FG themselves break the law, amongst others. Why would anyone add this article as 'proof' whilst it doesn't? 82.169.106.131 (talk) 17:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Weird. That press release (1073) quotes a Chinese government official making accusations against Falun Gong. I wonder if the author intended to use another press release from the same year (1071), which quotes an NGO contributor on the human rights abuses. Either way, there are better references out there. TheBlueCanoe 22:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Tagging issues

Just reverted three edits for following reasons:

  • WP:LEDE gives some guidance on this. A lot of introductory sections don't have citations because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, and is written with greater generality. I suggest that if there's a specific claim in the lead section that is likely to be challenged, then we can add a citation there.
  • I don't see any particular reason why this section should be expanded. There are several other sections that would seem to merit greater expansion than this one, but need to make sure things don't become indiscrinimate. See also WP:Criticism: "the undue weight policy requires that negative criticism be presented in a way that does not draw excessive attention to the negative criticism." This type of content should probably be discussed to ensure proportionality.
  • - Two of these terms were already linked in the article. I'll add back religion in China. Also be careful of WP:Label: "Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." You can't do that in 'see also' sections. TheBlueCanoe 02:03, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
  1. US press release (4 February 2004) Press Release HR/CN/1073. United Nations Retrieved 12 September 2006.
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