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Recent edits to the Battle of Kursk article

Please start consolidating your multitude of duplicate cites in your recent posts and start following the existing format of the cites to keep everything tidy. If you have any questions on how to do that please let me know, but I will point out that if one paragraph is entirely sourced from one book, you only need to cite it once, at the end of the paragraph, provided you list all of the page numbers used. Please also add the information for Lloyd Clark's book to the bibliography. Be very wary of all sources before published before about the 1980s, most all of them are pushing their own POVs, including Guderian who wasn't even there. I'll be watching your talk page so just respond here if you wish.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll consolidate my multiple references of same pages. I normally try to cite every chunk of passage that can stand alone. I've observed that many times, over time, passages get separated from their references and eventually they are tagged for verification and may be subsequently deleted. And even sometimes passages are tagged for verification even when not separated from their reference and this is often because their reference is sitting at the end of some giant paragraph. As for Lloyd Clark, you can start here http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/research/hri/fellows/clark. I've read two of his book and I can say he is one of the unbiased historians out there.EyeTruth (talk) 03:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

You're certainly not required to use only one cite per paragraph, but do you know how to name your cites so there aren't repeats of the exact same reference at the bottom of the page? Forex <ref name=g9>Glantz, p. 199</ref> becomes <ref name=g9/> on all subsequent uses and they'll all use the same entry in the reference, looking something like this: a b c Anderson and Baker (1977), p. 308.

I haven't read anything by Clark, but much depends on what sources he's using. If he's relying on Guderian and other Cold War-era sources, both from the Germans and the Soviets, then there may be some problems because he's just repeating biased sources. Not saying that he is, because I don't know one way or another, but it might be a problem. I already know that I'm going to have to check his statement about the employment of the Ferdinands against the histories of the two battalions that used them because it doesn't match what I remember on how they were used. So I'd advise seeing what sources he's using in his book before relying on him whole heartedly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 08:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know how to do the ref name tagging. I just didn't start out with it as I didn't plan to make lots of edits when I started reading the book. Lloyd uses a mixture of Soviet and German sources and often focuses a lot more on the human-side of war instead of the tables of numbers or intimidating details of tactics and maneuvers. And more often than not his interpretations mirror those of Glantz and Overy, both of which on a glance seem to be the most cited authors in his book on Kursk.EyeTruth (talk) 15:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I beg your pardon, most editors with barely over 100 edits don't fully understand how to consolidate refs. His book has gotten mixed reviews on Amazon, but mostly because readers didn't like the copious amount of background material at the beginning, although a couple of references to use of Paul Carell, David Irving, and Franz Kurowski as sources raise questions. I hope that he mostly uses them for personal accounts rather than anything factual, in which case I'd challenge their reliability.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It's all good. And yes, Clark's books are often bloated with background information, and that is because his target audience are the freshman history enthusiasts. And as I already pointed out, his books focus a lot more on narrating the experiences of the people caught in the conflict, so you get a lot of personal accounts, which are often followed by the author's brief critique of the account. And Amazon reviews I personally don't rely on since at a glance they can be very misleading. For example, some of Glantz's books get mixed reviews and this is usually because his books are hard to digest for the fun of it. EyeTruth (talk) 18:58, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

True, and I figured he was aiming at the introductory audience, but it was all I had access to since I don't have access to his book. And while I love Glantz's books, I'd hardly call him a stylist.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:33, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Prokhorovka

Just for your information, I didnt added the citations in the first place, I just know where they come from and therefore added the books in my 2 last edits. ;) StoneProphet (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

No fuss. I know... was just pointing out that doing it well gives it a good chance of escaping deletion some time in the future. BTW, it was good that you added those citations :D EyeTruth (talk) 02:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

User:StoneProphet, I just want to know if you have access to Zamulin's Demolishing the Myth? If yes, I want to know the context of the 207 Soviet tank losses he declared on page 401. I already know the full context of the 334 Soviet tank losses from at least two different historians, and I'm confident that Zamulin wouldn't state two different figures for exactly the same context. EyeTruth (talk) 06:39, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I've got the book and it makes no reference to any Soviet tank losses on p. 401, only to Totenkopf's strength and losses on 12 July.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 07:13, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

In fact, my 2012 reprint doesn't even have a page 635 as given in the next cite.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 07:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I do have info on the 334 tanks from Zetterling & Frankson. Also for the "522 men", Glantz & House and Zetterling & Frankson all give figures (although in different contexts) that debunks it. I'm suspecting the 522 casualties is probably for just one of the Germans units throughout the battle around Prokhorovka or unless it just for 12 July. Do you by any chance have access to Frieser's Die Ostfront 1943/44 ? EyeTruth (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have most of the English-language references, other than rubbish like Caiden and Cross, but not many of the German ones. I do have, however, histories of just about every panzer or panzergrenadier division, although their qualities vary considerably. But that's probably a bit more micro-level than we really want to get.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 08:18, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Wonderful. I only have stuff on Eastern Front and all entirely from Glantz with the exception of a few :p. I guess I will put up a request for the "522 men" on the article talkpage and let it stay for the time being. EyeTruth (talk) 08:38, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I dont have Zamulins book as I stated above. I also dont have currently Friesers book and getting it will take some time for me. The number is in the book, but I dont know in which context, as I wasnt the one who added it. U should maybe ask User:W. B. Wilson - I had a discussion with him some weeks ago and he apparently had Friesers book back then, so he can maybe help. StoneProphet (talk) 08:29, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks EyeTruth (talk) 08:38, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

According to the Frieser reference, the 522 men refer to casualties of the 1st and 2nd SS Divisions (279 and 243 respectively) for the losses report of the period 11 to 12 July 1943. W. B. Wilson (talk) 16:08, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks W. B. Wilson. Are those figures combined casualties (KIA+MIA+WIA)? For the same period, Glantz give 48 KIA, 321 WIA and 5 MIA (total 374 casualties) just for LSSAH (1st SS Division). Glantz does mention that the figures came from Lehmann, but he didn't object to them. So I'm just wondering if the figures you gave me are just a portion of the total casualties or the whole of it. EyeTruth (talk) 18:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

For 11/12 July Das Reich lost 41+190+12 from Weidinger's divisional history, matching Friesner's figure. I'd be interested to know why he under reports the casualties from LAH though, perhaps just a typo.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:25, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The figures appear to be combined casualties (Gesamtverluste is the term used). Frieser sources these figures to the report of the II SS Corps Surgeon made on 22 July 1943; the archival reference is BA-MA RS 2-2/17. W. B. Wilson (talk) 19:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Figures reported by the unit's medical staff versus figures reported by the commander of a subunit. I'm inclined to take the figures from the medical staff (for no specific reason though). Lehmann's figures would be mentioned in the main body of the article instead. My gratitude to you two. EyeTruth (talk) 01:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

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Operations Panther

Hallo, You moved Operation Panther (2013) away from the base name, and created a dab page at Operation Panther. Please now do the required followup of fixing all the incoming links so that they point to the new page name (or elsewhere as appropriate) and not to the dab page. Please note also that you'd left the dab page in a malformed state: every redlink on a dab page needs a bluelink to an article which mentions the topic. After some work I've fixed up the dab page - if I'd seen how many incoming links there were, before doing so, I'd have suggested undoing the move and letting the Mali operation be the primary topic. It certainly seems the only topic anyone has been interested enough to write an article on. Anyway, please now fix those links - there was a message displayed when you did the page move which pointed out that it's your responsibility to do so in this situation, where you're over-writing the previous title by a dab page. Thanks. PamD 22:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I will fix those links. Thanks for the reminder. I procrastinated too much and forgot. EyeTruth (talk) 23:07, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Beevor

Any chance you have Beevor's "Fall of Berlin" ? I'm looking for text and its context on page 267 that reportedly supports the following statement: "the retreating 4th Panzer Army was pushed into the operational region of the German 9th Army, forming a gigantic pocket of 250,000 men and 600 tanks. The Soviets then encircled this force in a pocket in the Spree Forest south of the Seelow Heights and west of Frankfurt." If you have the work and can check it, thanks much. W. B. Wilson (talk) 20:14, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I have nothing on Beevor. EyeTruth (talk) 01:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Problems working on the Battle of Kursk page.

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. I wanted to notify you that your behavior on the Battle of Kursk article is not productive to producing better articles, and as such I am compelled to report your behaivor to an administrator. Gunbirddriver (talk) 04:35, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Couldn't find it. Link? EyeTruth (talk) 04:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Blitzkrieg

Where's my 7K response? In case you missed my latest post, down all the way at the bottom of the section, which Friesner book are you referring to? The only one in the bibliography is from 2007. The excerpt that you provided is so generic that it would apply to any German attack. Please provide something more substantial that supports your point. And I don't think that you ever answered my question if Clark provided a definition of blitzkrieg so we can judge in what sense he's using it. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:43, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Your 9k response is coming. Muhaha. Good that you asked for that now. I'll be returning Frieser (2005) to the owner in two days. (I haven't decided if I want it in my personal collection yet). Frieser (2005) is the one titled The Blitzkrieg Legend. It is an English translation of one of Frieser's old books from the 1990s. I'm sure I posted about Clark's definition. Did you miss it or do you want fuller context? And yes, both Clark and Frieser gave very generic descriptions of Blitzkrieg. Most German offensives from 1940 to 1943 would count as blitzkrieg based on their definition. I wouldn't have taken Clark's word if not for Frieser's. EyeTruth (talk) 06:35, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

So let me summarize your position as I understand it: You feel that Zitadelle was a blitzkrieg because Clark and Friesner(?) describe it as such. You want a positive statement that it was not a blitzkrieg from somebody worthwhile, right? And you discount the many authors and generals who don't refer to it as a blitzkrieg because they don't characterize the attack one way or another. Negative proof is not proof, is that an accurate account of your reasoning? Two authors for and zero against? Even though Healey doesn't describe it as a blitzkrieg in his 2008 book when he did in 1992? Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:43, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't feel that Zitadelle was a blitzkrieg. I feel it was intended as such, at least in the initial version of the plan. I'm not sure Healey described it as blitzkrieg in any of his books. I actually think negative proof can be a proof or at least a basis to start with. But so far not even a negative proof has been put forward for the issue. Two and half authors for zero against.EyeTruth (talk) 06:35, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Right now, I gotta tell you that I'm rapidly loosing my enthusiasm for working on this article because you seem very set in your interpretation, so much so that WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT is coming into play because all of the other editors who've bothered to comment on this tempest in a teapot agree that it is not a blitzkrieg because the bulk of the authors writing on the battle do not describe it as such. Everybody else sees it as two for and 10 or more against characterizing it as a blitzkrieg.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:43, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I have not even met any of the criteria of disruptive editing outlined in the guideline. One of the "10 or more against characterizing it as a blitzkrieg" has already met at least three of criteria outlined in the guideline. Thanks for the heads up. Also check this out.

WP:YESPOV:

"Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all notable and verifiable points of view. Observe the following principles to achieve the level of neutrality that is appropriate for an encyclopedia."

"The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editor consensus." EyeTruth (talk) 06:35, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Result of the AN3 complaint about blitzkrieg at Battle of Kursk

Please see the result of the edit warring complaint. Currently you seem to have no support from other editors in your desire to use the word 'blitzkrieg' in this article. To avoid admin action, please don't restore that word until such time as you have consensus. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 16:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For the Battle of Prokhorovka. Very impressive. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)