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Clarification and amendment request: Syrian civil war articles

Initiated by Greyshark09 (talk) at 17:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Case affected

Emesik and Sopher99 block on 28 April (); Sopher99 block on July 10.()

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Principle 1
2. Finding 2
3. Remedy 3

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Greyshark09 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• FutureTrillionaire (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Marianian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jake Wartenberg (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• FunkMonk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Pug6666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ItsZippy (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

FutureTrillionaire notified here. Marianian notified here. Jake Wartenberg notified here. FunkMonk notified here; Pug6666 notified here; ItsZippy notified here.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Amendment

• Currently, the article Syrian civil war is under the arbitration remedies of ARBPIA, despite that the Syrian conflict has no direct affiliation with the general Arab-Israeli conflict. The ARBPIA was enforced by administrator User:Jake Wartenberg on March 2013 in order to control constant edit-warring on the Syrian civil war page with the most suitable tool, chosen by him to be ARBPIA. Jake was later requested to amend the issue of enforcing ARBPIA on Syrian civil war and using instead a new 1RR took for the Syrian civil war articles, answering that Arbcom is the correct target for such request .
• A new arbitration 1RR tool is proposed to be created to deal with Syrian civil war articles in order reduce edit-warring, and stabilize a large number of pages, to keep order and refrain from confusion because of current use of ARBPIA for the Syrian civil war article (ARBPIA to be replaced with Syrian civil war 1RR restriction).

Statement by Greyshark09

The ARBPIA 1RR restriction was enforced in Syrian civil war article in order to prevent constant edit-warring. The 1RR restriction was made by admin Jake Wartenberg on March 24, 2013, as an answer to editors' request to limit edit-warring on that page (request and enforcement). The enforcement of ARBPIA was made simply because it is the most convenient 1RR tool available and not because of an affiliation with the Arab-Israeli conflict. However, there might be a serious flaw in using the "Arab-Israeli arbitration enforcement" tool on Syrian civil war articles: first of all Israeli involvement is so far very limited in that conflict and hence Israel is not present in the infobox yet; secondly, even if considering Israeli involvement, the context is clearly not a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict (conflict between Israel and Arab League), but actually part of the Israel-Iran proxy conflict (Iran is not an Arab country and of course is not part of the Arab League). Considering that Syria is suspended from the Arab League (see ), thus the "Arab-Israeli arbitration enforcement" on Syrian conflict is irrelevant. I suggest creating a new arbitration tool named "Syrian conflict arbitration enforcement" for 1RR enforcing on Syrian civil war related articles instead of ARBPIA to resolve this issue.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad: Basically, your understanding of the presented case is in line with my attempt to present it. Let's see additional opinions on the case.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Marianian: You should reread my proposal - the request is to remove the ARBPIA tool (because it has nothing to do with Syrian civil war) and implement a different 1RR sanction tool - proposed to be 1RR for Syrian civil war articles. Alternative solutions were also proposed by administrators.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@FutureTrillionaire: I would like to bring to your attention that in addition to Syrian civil war article and Syrian civil war infobox template, there is also a constant edit-warring on articles Syria, Syrian civil war spillover into Lebanon, Siege of Homs, etc.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by FutureTrillionaire

As an editor who has made many edits to Syria-related articles (although I've recently been less active), I can safely say that the Syrian civil war is definitely not an Arab-Israeli conflict and should not be restricted by ARBPIA. However, the main Syrian civil war infobox often does suffer from edit wars. An 1RR restriction might be helpful there, but the Syrian civil war battle articles usually don't experience edit-wars, and therefore a 1RR restriction for those articles is unnecessary, maybe even inappropriate. I support restrictions for the infobox template, but do not support restrictions for the main article or related articles.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Marianian

I have only got involved in the Syria article alone to try to resolve the infobox issue where international events at the time could pose a conflict of interest into how the country's infobox was presented.

Although the RfC initially went towards a neutral solution where the government would be in separate infoboxes preferable at the politics and government section, the ultimate consensus was keep the status quo for now, for which I respect.

However, my talk page and user page was subject to personal attacks on 25 April 2013 (see this and this). This resulted in me posting a complaint about their actions, yet a user known as Eliastoma (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · tag · block user · block log · CheckUser) tried to silence me on that, resulting in a another complaint to an administrator. Further investigation resulted in the said account blocked on suspicion of sockpuppetry.

My last recent edit to Syria was to remind users that the consensus was the status quo.

Therefore I could support a new Syrian conflict arbitration enforcement tool with tougher measures against personal attacks. Even where my experience has been completely independent of the Israel question, it seems that the civil war needs its own taskforce to deal with the present issues, although I tried my best to respect WP:NPOV. --Marianian 01:54, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Question to Greyshark09

I am not sure if it is okay to have sub-headers under my space for asking questions, but I was wondering how it would be possible to have an article under two Arbcom cases? --Marianian 07:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Jake Wartenberg

My involvement in this issue began in late March when I responded to a protection request that was made as the result of an edit war over whether Israel should be considered involved in the conflict. It seemed initially as if I had been able to broker a compromise between some of the editors involved, but the situation quickly deteriorated after I lifted the protection. I read through the talk page archives and found that this was a dispute between entrenched editors that had been going on for months with little progress, despite extensive DR. ARBPIA reads, "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related." In light of this, there seemed to me little question that the sanctions were applicable. This is the first and only time I have worked in AE. I apologize if my actions have not embodied the same finesse that might be expected of an administrator more experienced in this area. ⇌ Jake Wartenberg 23:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by FunkMonk

Will cool the many hot-heads down, and force them to use the talk-page, which is a good thing. FunkMonk (talk) 17:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Pug6666

I agree with the statement that Greyshark09 made. I support putting 1RR the article. However it must be labeled appropriately. Labeling the Syrian civil war as part of the Israeli-Arab conflict without reliable sources calling it part of said conflict could be seen as POV pushing. So we could make the category Syrian Civil war protection as a temporary category and clearly state that fact. I hope I am not posting too late if so I apologize. Pug6666 19:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by ItsZippy

I have no strong opinion, really - I'm not incredibly involved in this dispute. I did block a user recently for a 1RR violation, as a result of the 1RR restriction on the page. The block itself was slightly contentious, and I asked for other admins to review it at AN, though I don't think the main points of contention would not really be resolved by an ArbCom motion either way. ItsZippy 17:52, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by My very best wishes

Israel as a state is already directly involved in the conflict, as clear from the text of article, for example here, airstrikes by Israeli aviation and a lot more . Therefore, I think this particular article falls under ARBPIA. There is no need in any clarification, amendment, new case or ANI/AN discussion. This can be decided by admins on AE if anyone files a complaint.My very best wishes (talk) 03:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

In'm not involved in anything Syrian Civil War-related, although I have long experience in dealing with ARBPIA-related AE requests. In my view, this civil war is at most partially and indirectly related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. As such, I think that the civil war as a whole is outside the scope of that conflict, and consequently outside the scope of the case's remedies, except as concerns edits that relate to Israel's involvement in the civil war. In addition, as I've said elsewhere, I have concerns that WP:ARBPIA#General 1RR restriction is not enforceable as written, because it was voted on by the Committee only indirectly in the context of a motion amending it, and, if it is considered a discretionary sanction by an administrator, it would need to be the subject of individual prior warnings per WP:AC/DS#Warnings.

Because arbitration is the last resort of dispute resolution, if I were on the Committee, I'd request more specific evidence that community- or admin-level dispute resolution efforts or tools have failed to effectively prevent continued edit-warring before considerint imposing any arbitral sanctions. Such evidence has not been presented here. I therefore recommend that administrators first make use of normal anti-editwarring measures such as warnings, protections or blocks, or ask for a community sanction at WP:AN, before asking the Committee to impose sanctions.  Sandstein  04:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Lothar von RIchthofen

It should be made known that the Syrian civil war topic area suffers from a fairly high level of sockpuppetry, both account- and IP-based. ArbCom member User:Salvio giuliano can well attest to this. Any 1RR restriction should explicitly take this into account with a clear exemption for the reversion of sock-edits. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by Thryduulf

I have only taken a cursory look at the article but it seems that 1RR is generally working there (and the statements by users here suggest likewise). If this is so, then I don't think that a community sanction authorising discretionary sanctions (or just 1RR restrictions) at the discretion of uninvolved administrators for all articles (and templates, etc) related to the Syrian Civil War would be hard to come by. However, ArbCom sanctions normally supercede community ones, and there is the potential for wikilawyering during a period until the community sanction is passed. As such I'd say that an arbcom motion retroactively authorising the existing sanctions and authorising their continuance until such time as the community reaches a consensus about whether to authorise sanctions or not. Although I don't think it likely, the community could decide not to authorise them, and at the same time it allows the status quo to remain in the event of no consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 23:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Courcelles: re "are to be treated as if they were a valid implementation of arbitration enforcement.". My reading of the intention here is that they should should be treated as if this motion was in place when they were issued. It makes no judgment on whether they are/were correct or not, other than there was a valid authority to place restrictions. Thryduulf (talk) 07:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@NuclearWarfare: "All sanctions made pursuant to the {{Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement}} prior to the passage of this motion are to be relogged at Talk:Syrian civil war/Log.". I don't think you mean all sanctions, as that would include those not relevant to Syria. "All sanctions related to the Syrian Civil War made..." is what I I think you want. Thryduulf (talk) 13:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

The phrasing of the discretionary sanctions regime from ARBPIA is as follows:

Looking over the article and talk page, it is clear that Israeli involvement in this inter-Arab conflict is of significant editorial interest, which reflects the interest shown by reliable sources. ARBPIA doesn't pertain solely to Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, but even if it did the PFLP-GC (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command) are involved in the conflict and have threatened to attack the Golan Heights currently occupied by Israel. Since the discretionary sanctions apply to "related articles, broadly interpreted" I would say this falls roughly within the lines given all these facts. From my reading, however, this is strictly a question of the 1RR restriction on the article as any edits relating to Israeli involvement would be normally covered by the discretionary sanctions anyway. The general 1RR restriction actually has similar wording as the discretionary sanctions saying:

The bolded wording would clearly accommodate the position that the article falls under the 1RR restriction. My impression would be that sanctions wouldn't apply to every article regarding the Syrian civil war, just those where Israeli involvement would be a significant point of interest.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Bbb23

I am posting at this point only to respond to NW's comment. It's hard enough for admins to decide whether a particular article belongs under sanctions. Now, you're saying that we have to parse the actual circumstances to see if the violation occurred in a part of the article that relates to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That's like putting sections of articles under sanctions. I see that as a practical nightmare. Also, although you recommend NYB's option #3, you appear to ignore NYB's first #3 (" no one so far seems to disagree that having the article under DS (in particular, a 1RR) is a good idea"), a statement rather than an option, and seems to contradict your view as how to apply the sanctions to this article.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

NW, thank you for your response, but I still want to return to practical considerations as to what we should do in the meantime before you folk actually make a decision. The article and the related template {{Syrian civil war infobox}} still have notices that sanctions are in effect. They also have edit notices that pop up if an editor edits either page. I think it's safe to assume that some editors, both admins and non-admins, aren't aware of this request here. What happens during the pendency of this request if an editor violates 1RR? One possible solution is to remove the edit notices (they are not required anyway - they just help to give notice), to leave the talk page notices on the talk pages, but add a notice that links to this request for clarification. It's not ideal as it has a certain schizoid quality to it, but I'm struggling to think of what's fair, yet at the same time not prejudge the outcome of this request.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

NW, I hate to be a pest (it's one of my many annoying flaws). Your advice makes sense to me except for two issues. First, if I remove the notice and edit notices, I think it would be better to post a message on the talk page warning editors not to construe the removal as a license to battle. To make it more visible, I'd like to put it into the header (I assume that can be done - I'm not experienced with editing talk page headers). Second, although it's true that a breach of WP:3RR is not required to block someone for edit warring, one rarely blocks an editor who reverts twice unless there's some additional factor, e.g., a recent history of edit warring in the article. And just because I can't resist, you might wish to fix your inadvertent and entertaining typo ("I think the former might be latter and preferred here"). :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 23:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Greyshark09

It is my understanding that motion proposal shall result in retroactive change of ARBPIA sanctions to be moved to appropriate Syrian civil war sanctions log and the ARBPIA sanction (considered to be inappropriate by most) be replaced with a temporal tool, specific for Syrian civil war article to extend for three months. In my opinion, it would be a reasonable (though temporal) solution for the issue. However i should ask to clarify whether template:Syrian civil war infobox (which is also a big source of edit-warring) shall also be included in this proposed change.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I apologize for the irrelevant question, i now see that the 3 month restriction is to be be applied to all Syrian civil war topic articles.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• I remind all users commenting that you must only edit your own section. Regards. — ΛΧΣ 03:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Let's see if we have consensus on what the issue is, before we try to figure out the resolution to it. If the filing party is correct, the basics seem to be this: (1) there have been editing problems on Syrian Civil War, (2) an administrator started using discretionary sanctions on the article based on the Palestine-Israel case, (3) no one so far seems to disagree that having the article under DS (in particular, a 1RR) is a good idea, but (4) people have noticed the obvious fact that the Syrian Civil War is primarily an inter-Arab conflict rather than an Israeli-Palestinian one. Procedurally, we can't really say we are "clarifying" the Palestine-Israel case by expanding it to a subject that is neither Israeli nor Palestinian, and I'm not sure that are our doing so would fall comfortably within the scope of an "amendment" either. So I guess the procedural choices would be (1) to open a case (which might be overkill), (2) to adopt a motion in lieu of a case (which is do-able but only if the facts aren't in dispute), or (3) to recommend that the parties take this to AN and try to get a community sanction adopted there. Awaiting further statements to see if my understanding of the issue is correct and from there to recommend a solution. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Recommend NYB's option 3 here. The automatic 1RR block is not enforceable as an AE action when it comes to this article, except when the content clearly relates to Israel in some fashion (Golan Heights skirmishes, or something related to conflict motivations). NW (Talk) 12:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Bbb23:: I do not disagree that having this article be under 1RR / discretionary sanctions is ultimately a good thing for the editing atmosphere. However, my opinion is Jake had no authority to implement them under ArbCom's discretionary sanctions authorization. I know it is not the best thing in the world to do it this way, but it is in my view the only thing that ArbCom has authorized. Some examples:

  We use the phrase "broadly construed" a lot in our decisions. If the Syrian civil war would count under this, so too would the Egyptian revolution, the Gulf War and the US-Iran naval tensions. With all three of those topics, there are situations where the Arab-Israeli sanctions would apply: upheaval in the Egypt-Gaza region, the decision by Saddam to fire Scud missiles at Israel, and I'm sure the occasional presence of the IDF navy operating alongside the Fifth Fleet respectively. But for those three larger topics to qualify for discretionary sanctions, ArbCom would have had to have passed a motion putting all of MENA under discretionary sanctions, which it has not.

  What I would not be opposed to (and indeed, which I might propose if it sounds good to everyone) would be a motion implementing 1RR / discretionary sanctions for one month with respect to the Syrian civil war. This should give enough time for the community to authorize sanctions of its own if it wishes; should it not, that's its own prerogative and the matter can be brought back to ArbCom when there is a genuine "serious conduct the community has been unable to resolve" (WP:ARBPOL). NW (Talk) 20:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Bbb23: That hypothetical editor can be blocked for edit warring separately from the blanket 1RR prohibition, and I would encourage that any blocks in the next week be given on a simple edit warring rationale instead of a 1RR violation rationale. Reviewing sysops are always at liberty to apply more stringent standards to enforcing the edit warring policy than the 3RR standard, whether on this or any other topic. I would remove the talk page banner and edit notice for now.

  For a more permanent solution, I think there are two routes we can take. One would be what I suggested earlier. Another would be to simply pass a motion adopting discretionary sanctions for the Syrian civil war topic area. I think the former latter might be better and preferred here; it is pretty clear that the article is a long-term minefield. The fact that the (wrong) implementation of discretionary sanctions and 1RR calmed down the topic area is almost evidence in and of itself that Arbitration enforcement was if not necessary, highly helpful, in helping calm down the topic area. NW (Talk) 22:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Bbb23: Don't worry about being a pest :) I wouldn't bother making any changes now. It's OK if the warnings are a little out of date if the ultimate intention is the same one. Hopefully the motion that I have proposed below will pass quickly enough and satisfy everyone's concerns. NW (Talk) 23:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
• @Lothar von Richthofen:: 1RR has an automatic exemption for sockpuppetry, BLP, copyright, illegal content (WP:NOT3RR). There's no need to mention it specifically here. NW (Talk) 21:05, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think there exists a real risk of tying ourselves up in procedural knots here, when we seem to have broad agreement that the underlying idea -- imposing a 1RR over the Syrian civil war -- is not a bad idea. Rather I make the issue more that the ARBPIA remedy doesn't quite fit. I agree with NYB that a case is overkill, but that looking for a community sanction to fit this will either succeed, and split enforcement between AE and a community noticeboard, or fail to come to any consensus and end up right back here. So I guess my current preference is for some sort of motion to resolve this. Courcelles 19:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Motion 1: Syrian civil war

In March 2013, Jake Wartenberg (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) notified the editors of Syrian civil war and several associated pages that the topic area fell under the scope of {{Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement}}, which provides for a blanket one revert per editor per article per day restriction as well as discretionary sanctions. The Syrian civil war is a broad-ranging conflict, but any connection to the Arab-Israeli conflict comes largely from Israel's geographic proximity to Syria and not any significant involvement of Israel in the article. While content that involves Israel in the Syrian civil war topic area does fall under the scope of {{Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement}}, the overall topic area does not. However, the revert restriction and the presence of discretionary sanctions has been helpful in calming the editing atmosphere. Accordingly:

1. Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for the Syrian civil war topic area, broadly construed, for three months. Notifications and sanctions made pursuant to this remedy are to be logged at Talk:Syrian civil war/Log.
2. A one revert per editor per article per day restriction is established for the Syrian civil war topic area, broadly construed, for three months.
3. Should the community authorize a form of general sanctions for the topic area that is broadly similar to this motion, the first two provisions will automatically terminate.
4. All sanctions relating to the Syrian civil war made pursuant to the {{Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement}} prior to the passage of this motion are to be relogged at Talk:Syrian civil war/Log.

Support

1. Proposed. NW (Talk) 23:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Extending ARBPIA in this way is unnecessary, though I agree legitimising Jake's sanctions is the right thing to do. AGK 20:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

Comments

• Leaning toward support, but will allow another day or so for community comments before voting, and may propose a couple of copyedits. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• "are to be treated as if they were a valid implementation of arbitration enforcement" Well, not really. We're waiving the question of jurisdiction as it regards ARBPIA, not declaring anything valid in all respects... Courcelles 04:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• NYB, I would appreciate any copyedits you care to make. Courcelles, I just looked over all of the sanctions issued since March and it doesn't appear that any active ones were issue in relation to the Syrian civil war. I'm just going to drop the clause. NW (Talk) 12:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Clarification request: Scientology

Initiated by  Sandstein  at 22:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Drg55 (talk · contribs), currently blocked (notification)
• Peter cohen (talk · contribs) (notification)
• The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs) (Notification. For the purpose of editing this section, the restriction this user is subject to is vacated to the extent it applies, provided that they do not reveal any identifying information about the user whose privacy is at issue here.  Sandstein  22:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC))
• Prioryman (talk · contribs) (notification)
• Editors participating in the ongoing discussion at WP:ANI#Abuse of admin powers and Violation of WP:INVOLVED by User:Sandstein (notified there)

Statement by Sandstein

Recent actions I undertook to enforce the decision in the case WP:ARBSCI (the Scientology case) have given rise to an extended discussion at the ANI thread indicated above. I identify three key questions related to the case that are controversial in good faith among at least some participants to that thread:

1. Is the alleged full real name of the editor sanctioned in remedy 17 of the Scientology case private information, such that it is a violation of WP:OUTING or WP:Harassment to publish it on-wiki?
2. Is it permitted to use discretionary sanctions to prohibit users from discussing certain matters related to private information on-wiki, if the purpose of that prohibition is to reduce the risk of the unwarranted on-wiki publication of that private information?
3. Does the Committee expect that discretionary sanctions are used only in particular situations, as an exceptional measure, or as a last resort if other admin or community tools would not help, or subject to other restrictions (if yes, please codify these expectations at WP:AC/DS), or may they be used just like other admin tools whenever the policy requirements for their use per are met?

For my views on what I understand the answers to be based on my interpretation of current policies, please refer to my ANI statement. In short: 1. yes, 2. yes, 3. no.

A response by the Committee would help to mitigate the drama and (in my view) ongoing privacy breaches generated by that thread, and would also help me and others bring their conduct more in line with the Committee's expectations, to the extent necessary. As an administrator regularly working at WP:AE, I at least would appreciate being able to review and modify any current or future sanctions by me depending on this feedback.

And while you're at it, could you please indicate when (if ever) the in-progress revision of WP:AC/DS, particularly the clarification of the appeals procedure, will be forthcoming? Thanks,  Sandstein  22:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for preventative measures

Considering that the two arbitrators who have commented so far share my view that publishing private identifying information about the editor at issue constitutes outing or harassment (except under special circumstances not present here), I recommend directing a clerk or other functionary to take measures the Committee deems appropriate (such as redaction, courtesy blanking, oversight, warnings or restrictions) to suppress such breaches of privacy as have already occurred in the course of the ongoing ANI thread (as I intended to prevent with my warnings and sanction), and to prevent further breaches of privacy from occurring while the Committee considers this request for clarification. In view of some of the more surprising arguments put forth at ANI, I also recommend considering to amend the case page such that the names used in it may not be used to erroneously justify future breaches of privacy.  Sandstein  06:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

The underlying problem is that my offense was not that I at any point disclosed Prioryman's real name. Oversighters are free to look for themselves to confirm that my comments to Sandstein only noted Prioryman's previous account, which is identified plainly on a WP:ARBSCI section I linked to in my comment, and that Prioryman had used the previous account to restore self-published information, which is backed with public diffs on the WP:ARBSCI finding I linked to in my comment. Furthermore I linked to a community noticeboard discussion from October where it was decided that mentioning Prioryman's first and last name did not constitute outing due to numerous public disclosures on-wiki. He warned me for that initial post and apparently sanctioned me just for noting Prioryman's previous account in my response to said warning. If I had noted Prioryman's last name on either occasion then I might understand his actions, even though they would still be in error, but I find it hard to accept that I can be sanctioned just for repeating what is noted at the public arbitration page being used to support the sanction.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Dennis Brown

My statements at ANI speak for themselves and I suggest reading that entire thread. My concern isn't Prioryman, but the threat of Arb sanctions on unsuspecting editors. It seems to me that threatening a user with Arb sanctions should be the exception, used only when it is the best or only option, not a regular or "ordinary" course of action simply out of convenience. Since discretionary sanctions are a "fast track" exception to standard community policies, as defined by the Arbitration Committee, and not a community determined policy, they must be treated as such. There exists a high potential for abuse due to the limited avenues of review, which is why it seems they were designed to be used sparingly when there is a clear need, and with a higher standard of accountability. Because they are an exception to actual policies, they should be narrow in scope and used cautiously.

When an editor is threated to be blocked via an Arb sanction, and knows that no admin can review or overturn that block, and only the admin making the threat or the Arbitration Committee can review it, this is a big deal. There is nothing "ordinary" about it. Of course, that is the purpose, to deal with the worse problems where policy falls short. When this is done in a situation and it is clearly unneeded and overkill, it is brutal to editor retention and morale. It flatly comes across as admin bullying, even if that is not the intent. Arb sanction blocks do not have the same checks and balances that a regular block has, and most people know little of Arb, except that it is something to be avoided. Without comment on this particular case, I maintain that using the threat of an Arb sanctioned block when it is clearly not needed would be a textbook case of abuse of admin tools, as only admin can issue these warnings.

Sandstein has clearly indicated that he believes that these sanctions can and should be used any time that their use isn't a direct policy violation. I believe this is turning the system upside down. Community policy comes first, and Arb sanctions are for when regular policy is insufficient. The standard should be (or is) that Arb sanctions are somewhat narrow in scope and should only be used when less aggressive methods are not likely to be effective, or have been tried and failed. Not necessarily the last resort, but certainly not the first resort. These aren't emergency situations, and if they were, the block button is the right tool. His interpretation is a recipe for abuse, as it would allow some admin to use them liberally to simply prevent review of his blocks, thus dominate an area, while greatly limiting the scrutiny in each block. The threat of an Arb sanction is simply too powerful a tool to be used so casually. Clarity is requested. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Arbs I trust Sandstein acted in good faith, but I think the tags were overkill here and they may be getting used too often. My concern is moving forward that we understand that threatening an Arb sanction is not as trivial as a TW template, and it requires a higher threshold than using a TW template, due to the reasons and risks I've outlined. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Alanscottwalker

Drawing to your attention my comment at as it deals with your privacy jurisdiction. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:00, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

NYB: COI editing is a terrible scourge that reduces, in appearance and fact, the value of the Pedia, agreed. However, such concerns give way under the demands of CIV and the check of NPOV. Both these pillars working together provide the shield, crucible, and veil necessary to focus on the edits (which is what really matters to the Pedia) and to countermand the POV pusher. Yes, on occasion we have to delve into COI, to understand what is going on but the Pillars still, as that instruction quote notes, says where the balance lies, because COI itself does not necessarily actualize in edits. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Peter cohen: A mens rea for negligence? Criminal mind? That is the type rhetoric that is so over-the-top that it leads to disruption and discredit upon the proponent of it. Which is in part what appears to bring us to this pass. That comment continues the pattern, which was the pattern found against the blocked user, to so gratuitously waive around the name, that you bludgeon the discussion with it. It appears your rhetoric wants to make it about the person, but Wiki policies for good reason resist such personalization. And it's one factor why reasonable minds think that warning about such use, after the block of the other user, is within reason, and thus within discretion. Reasonable minds may differ, of course, but, in the end, you may not intend your rhetoric to be personally harassing, yet it looks like that to plenty of others. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Peter cohen: 1) conduct is about conduct, it is not about the person, it is about certain acts the person has taken within a given context; 2) being rebuffed in criticism comes as no surprise to anyone, nor is it a license for continuing an apparent pattern of harassment of another user; 3) the "name" and personal harassment that I referred to above is the name of the person that you identify as the person you "have had previous disagreements with Prioryman" about on-wiki and off wiki things; 4) Whether or not you believe it was legitimate for the admin to act to protect Prioryman, and thus the functioning of appropriate and policy compliant discussions of other people on the Pedia, that is the apparent reason for all of the Admins actions at issue. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Jayen466: This comment proves too much. Indeed, its shows why the discretion was warranted. Note they all say it could be harassing, which is the rasion de etre for the Outing policy. More importantly, the fact that reasonable minds disagree shows that the Admin acted within reasoned discretion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Peter Cohen

My position is similar to TDA's above.

I made two posts to Sandstein's talk page querying his actions. These are visible in the last section of this version of his talk page. In those posts I linked to User:ChrisO, (which is and was a redirect to User:Prioryman,) but did not explicitly state any of the user's more recent account names. I also linked to the archived ANI discussion Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive773#Repeated_violation_of_RfC_restrictions_-_site_ban_proposed_for_Youreallycan and referred to User:Qwyrxian's closing summary. I pointed out that Sandstein had gone against the community's consensus or near consensus that naming Prioryman is not outing. In accordance with the spirit of the conclusion I did not give Prioryman's real name even though I think that it has become a secret as open as that of the identity of the author of Waverley at the time that Bertrand Russell wrote "On_Denoting". I then said I would take Sandstein to AN for going against the community consensus or near consensus previously expressed at ANI id the issue of Prioryman's name was the substance of his actions against TDA and Drg55. Sandstein's response was to issue me with an Arbitration warning under the Scientology case. To the best of my recollection I have never edited any articles related to Scientology and have not concerned myself with that dispute.

I therefore ask the committee:

1) When a previously uninvolved editor questions an admin and asks them to account for the use of their admin powers, is it legitimate for the admin to immediately use their admin powers against the editor who has just challenged them? If so, what are the circumstances under which this is legitimate? My view is that Sandstein has violated at least the spirit of WP:Involved by taking the actions he did against TDA and myself. He has also gone against policy and guidelines regarding admin accountability through using his powers to intimidate those who have questioned him

2) When an admin is using his powers to enforce opinions which have been demonstrated at ANI or similar locations not to have the consensus of the community, has he got the right to persist in going against that consensus and to use his admin powers against those who have pointed it out? My view is that only Arbcom, Jimbo or WMF employees taking staff actions should be allowed to be anything like as cavalier about over-ruling the community's judgment as Sandstein has been.

3) When an editor has a long history of being uninvolved in a topic area and does not say anything related to that subject, is it legitimate to use sanctions related only to that content area? My opinion is no. I have had previous disagreements with Prioryman but these have been related to the Fae case and to Gibraltarpedia and, more generally, differences of opinion over Wikipediocracy and the running of WMUK. If my conduct was problematic, and I consider that it was not, then it should only be sanctions applicable in those areas that should have been used.

I ask Arbcom to undo the actions that Sandstein has taken against me. Also, on the evidence I can see, I think that the actions against TDA should also be reversed. I have not looked at Drg55's history but I ask Arbcom to do so and consider whether at the least the grounds for various admin actions need tweaking. I also ask Arbcom to consider recent criticism in assorted places on Misplaced Pages of Sandstein's conduct and consider whether some guidance and advice would be of value.--Peter cohen (talk) 00:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Given that consideration is being given to protecting Prioryman's name from association with the Arbcom case. I ask that consideration be given to disassociating mine? Even though I cannot be unnotified, Sandstein's poor judgment has resulted in my name being recorded on the same page as Prioryman's website is linked and being associated with Scientology.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I should like to draw attention to various aspects of policy and Arbcom rules and procedures that Sandstein has ignored

• WP:ADMINACCT "Administrators are accountable for their actions involving administrator tools, and unexplained administrator actions can demoralize other editors who lack such tools. Subject only to the bounds of civility, avoiding personal attacks, and reasonable good faith, editors are free to question or to criticize administrator actions. Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed."

By issuing warnings against myself and TDA and by issuing a sanction against TDA Sandstein failed to respond civilly to queries that are clearly within the bounds of civility and reasonable good faith and that were not personal attacks. He aggravated his breach of admin accountability by attempting to intimidate me from taking his poor use of his powers to ANI, one of the standard methods for appealing against the abuse of admin powers.

• WP:AC/DS "Best practice includes seeking additional input prior to applying a novel sanction or when a reasonable, uninvolved editor may question whether the sanction is within the scope of the relevant case;"

Given that both TDA and I had pointed out that many editors had expressed the view in the previous ANI discussion to which Sandstein's attention had been drawn that it was not outing to name Prioryman, then Sandstein willfully ignored the fact that many reasonable uninvolved editors would question the sanction.

• WP:INVOLVED "In general, editors should not act as administrators in cases in which they have been involved. This is because involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute."

Both TDA and I were in current disputes with Sandstein as we had both questioned his judgment with regards to the WP:OUTING. Especially as I had mentioned my intention to take him to ANI, Sandstein had a clear conflict of interest in imposing the warning on me as he hoped that it would prevent me from taking him to ANI.

• "WP:ADMINABUSE If a user believes an administrator has acted improperly, he or she should express their concerns directly to the administrator responsible and try to come to a resolution in an orderly and civil manner. However, if the matter is not resolved between the two parties, users can take further action (see Dispute resolution process further). For more possibilities, see Administrators' noticeboard: Incidents and Requests for comment: Use of administrator privileges. Note: if the complaining user was blocked improperly by an administrator, they may appeal the block and/or e-mail the Arbitration Committee directly."

ANI is explicitly mentioned as a legitimate channel for complaining about improper actions by Sandstein. He sought to prevent it being used.

• Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith There is too much here to quote but Sandstein has clearly failed to accept that anyone can question his judgment in good faith. He immediately assumed that there must be some malice behind what TDA an I did and went looking for what he considered the most likely bad faith justification.
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Reversal_of_enforcement_actions "Administrators are prohibited from reversing or overturning (explicitly or in substance) any action taken by another administrator pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy, and explicitly noted as being taken to enforce said remedy, except... following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI)."

Here ANI has been identified as a legitimate location for discussing and overturning enforcement actions. Sandstein has tried to prevent his decisions from being the subject of community discussion even though he knew from the archived thread to which both TDA and I had drawn his attention that most participants in that previous discussion at ANI disagreed with his interpretation of WP:OUTING.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

It is clear that Sandstein has only come to the committee because he has lost control of the situation and the community has become involved despite his best efforts to prevent in being allowed to express its views on this matter. His actions against me and TDA show that he lacks the ability to consider the possibility that he might be wrong. Misplaced Pages is littered with posts such as

Question for Heim, Salvio and anyone else who thinks warnings are not reversible

Would you still maintain this opinion if a) an admin party to an Arbcom case who thought that they were about to be de-sysopped went and issued assorted warnings against the Arbcoms members they blamed for their impending de-sysopping; or b) an admin who had become disillusioned with WP issued warnings against various people listed at Misplaced Pages:Famous_Wikipedians, picking and choosing subjects that would be particularly likely to be sensitive to the targets?--Peter cohen (talk) 17:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Information to clarify Arbcom's focus

Here is a section of the to which TDA and I drew Sandstein#s attention

Thanks, Prioryman, so the issue is not the old username. Is it just the surname that is the issue?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct. Prioryman (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

These quotes are not from far down the thread in question.

The reference to any potential rudeness in referring to User:ChrisO is therefore a red herring. Prioryman has stated that it is not a problem within the last none months. Perhaps he has changed his mind since October, but for someone to have the mens rea to be harassing him by referring to the ChrisO identity, that person needs to be aware that Prioryman has changed his mind. As far as I know he has not, which also means that I doubt that TDA would be aware of any such hypothetical change. Therefore Sandstein's claiming that TDA was outing Prioryman by mentioning the "ChrisO account is spurious and therefore the sanction is unjustified. Further Sandstein's failure to read even as much as the first couple of screens of the ANI discussion to which two users have drawn his attention in order to find that the reference to "ChrisO" has been declared not to be problematic by the man himself shows that Sandstein has the mens rea for culpable neglect or willful negligence in his exercise of his Admin powers. He either could not be bothered to perform his duties (culpable neglect) or was so arrogant in his conviction that he is always right and that mere ordinary users did not have the right to challenge him that he did not look (willful negligence).

In either case the discussion of whether it is harassment to mention the previous userid of Prioryman is a red herring except as evidence that the people who have been mentioning it up to now haven't yet done their homework.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker You have failed to notice that Sandstein made it about the person from the moment he chose not to assume good faith and not to abide by rules of admin accountability by using his against the individuals who questioned his previous use of them. By issuing warnings and by using discretionary sanctions he made this matter an issue of user conduct and not one of discussing the applicability of certain powers to a situation. Once he chose to make user conduct part of the issue, then his own conduct could not be excluded from this affair. He only sought advice from Arbcom on this matter after a substantial number of users condemned his actions at ANI.

You also ignore basic human psychology. When someone has a legitimate complaint and they are rebuffed, then the normal reaction to such behavior is to shout louder. Just look through some recent newspapers and I am sure you will find people saying about hospitals or police or other public institutions that it was not financial compensation that they wanted, rather all they wanted to do is have their complaint listened to fairly. It is the action of the authorities trying to silence the complaint that then creates all the drama that ends in the court cases and newspaper reports and hearings in parliament. It is the behavior of people like Sandstein and of people like you who back him as a reflex action that is the root cause of Wikidrama, not that of people who have been the victims of admin abuse. The Wikipedian way you praise is what has resulted in umpteen content creators walking out, in Wikipediocracy thriving and gaining press coverage of malfeasance on this site because it ignores how anger and hurt are the feelings generated in ordinary human beings who are maltreated by officialdom and that it is perfectly normal to express those feelings of anger and hurt by complaining about the abusive officials. Telling people that they have no right to express the anger and hurt just creates more anger and hurt and increases the expression of it. Dennis Brown, however, has modeled behavior that reduces drama through asking questions to clarify his understanding of what has been going on and by waiting to hear from Sandstein before reaching his conclusions about the matter. If more people at ANI followed his lead, then there would be an awful lot less drama.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@AlanScottwalker "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Whether or not Sandstein's motivation was good, he paved this particular highway to Hell with his arrogance and self-righteousness. An accountable admin who assumed good faith would have read the thread that TDA and I referred him to and would have come back and said "Okay the community does not support my view that it is outing to indicate what the "O" stands for but the closing admin did highlight that the use of the surname could be intended to harass Prioryman. In my view the intention was to harass. I will go and change the block grounds to one of harassment, not of outing." That is the non-drama-mongering way in which he could have handled it. However, Sandstein has a history of not being to accept disagreement, hence the comment about him from the bureaucrat board that I quote above. He does not listen to people who point out his errors of judgment or even have simple disagreements with him. It is his failure to accept that people can disagree with him in good faith and his insistence on using his admin powers against people who have merely disagreed that have led to his being taken to AN/I. Unless he shows signs here of being able to accept that his conduct has been hugely sub-optimal, then he is not fit to be an admin.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Heim

Leaving other issues behind, I just want to say please, please, please listen to Sandstein's last sentence, for the love of Pete. People are asking for warnings to be rescinded. I still don't believe warnings can be rescinded, as I view them as mere notifications, but since the committee has never clarified this, I cannot prove this, nor can those who believe warnings are a first step to sanctions. We asked for clarification on this months ago (I can't even remember how many). It's not right that we've had to wait this long. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Salvio, as you can see, I totally agree with you on the non-rescindability of warnings, but I have no good documentation for that. As has been pointed out, our documentations is contadictory, and some of it supports the notion held by others, including (I believe) Sandstein, which is that a warning is a formal step toward sanctions issued only by admins and in the case of conduct violations in the area, like when the cops give you a warning for speeding it goes on your record. In such a case, it would make sense that they would be rescindable. That's why we still need clarification. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Jayen466

Warnings are logged here for future reference by other admins (who may directly apply sanctions as a next step). If the warnings were inappropriate, of course you can rescind them. You just delete them from the log, or strike them. What's so difficult? Andreas JN466 12:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Salvio giuliano: In practice, a logged warning means that any other admin can block or ban the user without further notice. It's a target painted on the user's back. This is not theory: it's what happened to The Devil's Advocate here. If the warning was inappropriate (and it was, in both cases), it should be rescinded, simple as that, to "reset" these editors' status to the same status everyone else enjoys.

We now have two (possibly three, given that there was a COI issue in that article) arbitrators saying that even Drg55's original mention of the editor's surname was not outing, which is the official reason given for the block given in Drg55's block log. So half the arbitrators commenting here are saying that Sandstein's block rationale was invalid. This is all The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen said. As things stand, Roger and Salvio are permitted to say it wasn't outing, without finding their names logged on the ARBSCI page by Sandstein, while The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen stand warned and sanctioned for saying the same thing. This is not right. Please remove their warnings from the log, and rescind The Devil's Advocate's sanction. --Andreas JN466 23:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Mathsci: I think we are all in agreement that Drg55 should remain topic-banned. But your trying to demonstrate that Drg55 is a wicked scoundrel is beside the point. For, to quote a man I am fond of, "it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all" (Mencken). Censoring arbcom pages years after the fact to make something that happened in plain sight of the community unhappen is Stalinist rubbish.

The right thing to do is to sanction Drg55 for what s/he did. The wrong thing to do is to change the truth for them and everyone else just so that you can use a bigger ban hammer on them. Andreas JN466 08:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@Mathsci: I agree that Drg55's editing was disruptive, and said as much at AE. Drg55 would need to learn a bit more about sourcing policies and come to a better understanding of what sources are and are not considered okay to cite; as it was, s/he did not respond well to entirely germane criticism of his/her sources. In light of that, declining the appeal against the topic ban seemed perfectly reasonable. Andreas JN466 10:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Carrite

I object to Sandstein's reference to an "alleged" name of the editor in question. The editor in question, the former ChrisO, identified himself by name in his edits, voluntarily, and linked his old account to his new one, voluntarily. Bells can not be unrung, nor virginity restored. Once an editor identifies by name on WP, that editor is identified by name on WP. For example, I can't tomorrow start to squawk about "outing" and ask that all references to my real life name, Tim Davenport, be stricken from WP and any future reference to it result in sanctions. That's just the way it is. Sandstein is expressing an extreme view of this situation, one with plenty of precedent on Wiki to discount his position. Carrite (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by IRWolfie-

To contrast with what Dennis is saying; warning about "Arb sanctions on unsuspecting editors" is precisely what one should do where sanctions are in force. Articles are under discretionary sanctions precisely because a "fast track" exception to standard community policies is what is needed in those topics areas covered by them, and editors in that topic area should know. These warnings should not be treated as something handed out with great deliberation and controversy, or else they lose the entire point of their existence; trying to deal with particularly problematic areas.

There is a process for getting an AE decision overturned; that a single admin can't just simply overturn it is irrelevant. Discretionary sanctions are here because they are a necessary mechanism in those topics areas. From experience, one also gets a damn sight more due process at AE than at ANI. The contrast with AE is a lynchmob. What's the alternative? Look at the ANI thread about Sandstein, where those with an axe to grind come out of the wood work and don't declare their involvement.

Sanctions, meanwhile are almost universally defined as being broad in scope across a topic area, they are not narrowly defined (I don't know of any such case of narrowly defined DS scope), and its uninvolved admins that look at the case. The checks and balances are stronger for AE than ANI, and there is a clearly defined process.

.. and it's not just admins that can warn about DS, the guidelines were ambiguous last time I checked and non-admins have given warnings, IRWolfie- (talk) 17:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Beyond My Ken

@Salvio: If there is one area on Misplaced Pages in which a "legalistic" approach is appropriate, it is surely the area of discretionary sanctions, which are only promulgated for subject areas in which the normal Misplaced Pages approach has broken down, and, in some cases, descended into near chaos. It is necessary in those areas to be less forgiving of behavioral eccentricities and more "legalistic" in order to implement ArbCom decisions, which are, after all, "legalistic" in form and content.

Already we have a situation where there are very few admins who are willing to patrol AE and discretionary-sanctioned subject areas, and the Committee should be extremely careful in their comments and actions in this case, since the result could be that even fewer admins will be willing to police it, which will leave a gaping hole in the enforcement of ArbCom decisions. Unless the Committee is prepared to take personal responsibility for the enforcement of all its decisions, it needs admins such as Sandstein, whose work ought to be praised and not denigrated. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

There seems to be a lot differing opinions about whether notifying/warning an editor about discretionary sanctions is really a warning or just a simple notification. Some editors believe that it's simply a notification. Other editors believe that it is a warning after some alleged misconduct. IIRC, I've been told by at least one admin that a warning/notification (whichever it is) is best given by an uninvolved admin who patrols the topic space. I don't know what the correct answers to these questions to these questions are, but I do know that different editors/admins answer them in different ways. It would be nice, and probably best done separately from the current dispute here, for us to reach consensus on these questions. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Second Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

According to WP:AC/DS,

This is an exact quote according to WP:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions.

Can the Committee please confirm (or reject):

1. That such warnings/notifications are in fact, not notifications, but actual warnings (per the wording of WP:AC/DS)?
2. That such warnings (assuming that the answer to question #1 is a warning) should identify the actual misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways?
3. That such warnings (assuming that the answer to question #1 is a warning and assuming the answer to question #2 is yes), do warnings that do not identify misconduct and/or do not identify how the editor may amend their ways still count?

Also, can the committee clarify who should make such warnings/notifications? Can only admins do this? Or can regular editors do this? Does it matter whether the admin or the editor is involved or uninvolved in the dispute?

There seems to be many differing opinions on each of these questions. Can the Committee please provide clarification? If the Committee would prefer that such clarifications be separate from the current request, I can file a separate Request for Clarification. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Mathsci

The original enforcement request concerning Drg55 was lodged by Prioryman. One of the recent diffs presented there questioned whether, like MartinPoulter, Prioryman was, "an unreconstructed neo fascist participant from alt.religion.scientology". Drg55 further stated, "our critics are generally insane" and "I personally exposed quite a few attackers of Scientology with weapon of truth, and truth does defeat lies." It was on the basis of edits like that that Drg55 was indefinitely topic banned from all edits relating to Scientology or religion in general. Drg55's appeal was rejected, because of the non-neutral nature of his edits, as EdJohnston commented. During that appeal Drg55 again made comments discussing Prioryman's activities off-wikipedia. He did so repeatedly even after receiving warnings, the first of which was from Future Perfect at Sunrise. That resulted in Sandstein's indefinite block. The objections to the block did not address in any way the problems with Drg55's editing. Instead there were wikilawyering edits suggesting that the identification could be deduced from "join-the-dots" sleuthing on wiki. However, Drg55's comments about both MartinPoulter and Prioryman were unambiguously attacks on and harassment of both editors. The wikilawyering about outing on public noticeboards has had the unfortunate and probably unintentional effect of continuing possible harassment. The two logged notifications of WP:ARBSCI seem fairly standard in the circumstances. Effectively that advice was ignored and the disruption initiated by Drg55 has continued. The extensive catalogue of criticisms of Sandstein by Peter cohen on this page seems completely disproportionate to the logged notification or warning. Mathsci (talk) 05:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@Jayen466: My reading of the situation is that Drg55's editing was disruptive; and in various ways, hence the very broad topic ban. During the appeal it became more so, even after warnings. Previously in June there was indeed an edit summary where Drg55 mentioned the possibility of wikipedia being sued. Mathsci (talk) 09:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Someone not using his real name

It seems that most arbitrators commenting below have missed the fact that whereas Peter Cohen was "only" warned, in the The Devil's Advocate case, the warning was followed by an actual sanction imposed. I think that there is only an academic distinction between an admin officially AE-warning an editor not to do something and officially AE-sanctioning him with a ban prohibiting said editor from doing said something. Sandstein's warnings were not mere notifications of the existence of some Arbitration case. Both editors warned were already aware of that, and Sandstein was aware that they were aware. The two editors were in fact sanctioned for being too aware of some content of that Arbitration. Downplaying the obvious stifling intent with which Sandstein placed the two warnings and the one topic ban he subsequently issued to TDA as a mere notification shows the vast chasm between how this is perceived by the editor-peons and the lofty admins/arbs on this page and at ANI. And people wonder why most editors see admins as an unaccountable Old Boys' club... By the way, Arbcom has yet to address Sandstein's subsequent "Request for preventative measures" made on this very page, in which he asks that the Scientology Arbitration case be redacted so that certain editors may be no longer be "outed" by linking to it. Someone not using his real name (talk) 07:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by TransporterMan

I would like to second A Quest for Knowledge's request for clarification for when and how DS notices/warnings are to be given, and express hope that will be in the policy that Salvio refers to below. As presently stated, step number 4 of the DS process states, "4. Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways". That formulation is unclear as to whether actual misconduct is needed before the warning can be given or whether it is possible to give it (a) merely because an editor is either merely editing in the area to which DS apply or (b) because the editor is engaging in conduct which is questionable, but which is not clearly misconduct (e.g. a very slow motion edit war consisting of clearly revert–y edits stretched over days or weeks or conduct which is viciously curt and abrupt but short of being clear incivility). I fall on the side that they ought to be able to be given merely as notices. If these areas are important enough to establish DS's for, then these warnings ought to be no more than statements that, in effect, "We're not saying that you're doing anything wrong for sure, but your behavior has caught our eye and we want you to know what you have at stake." The alternative would be to establish that a notice must be given first, perhaps by templating the article talk page (as far as I know, the talk page templates currently have no actionable effect), then make the current individual-editor templates last-chance type warnings per se once that notice has been in place for a period of time. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by RegentsPark

Though this is not directly relevant to the Scientology case, I concur with TransporterMan above that we need some sort of clarity on the process of notifying an editor about discretionary sanctions in a topic area. In particular, arbs need to clarify:

1. Who can issue these notifications - any editor, any uninvolved editor, admins only, uninvolved admins only?
2. Are these notifications merely informational or should they follow some sort of wrongdoing?
3. Are editors subject to action under discretionary sanctions only after notification or at anytime (assuming article talk pages are clearly templated with a DS notice)?

My personal inclination is to treat these notifications as purely informational in nature and editors who edit in a sanctioned area should be notified of the existence of these sanctions by any editor. That way, it is clear to an uninvolved admin that an editor knows about the sanctions and we won't need to get into extended discussions of the sort we're seeing here - i.e., when someone's behavior is wrong enough for sanctions to be issued. Clear and unequivocal guidance from arbitrators is, I think, essential. --regentspark (comment) 15:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Comments:

At this point I will address Sandstein's question whether it is permissible for an editor to mention Prioryman's real name; I may return to the other questions raised later.

Our policies permit editors to choose whether to associate their real-world identity with their Misplaced Pages identity. Putting aside editors who simply use their real name as their username, as to whom this issue does not arise, editors have a range of options in this regard. One can imagine a continuum, with editors who make no secret of who they are at all (such as by mentioning their names on their userpages), at one end and editors who make no reference at all to their real-world identity on-wiki or in any Wikimedia-related forum on the other.

Prioryman falls somewhere between the two extremes I have described; I don't think it's necessary to resolve precisely where he falls on the continuum between total openness of identity, on the one hand, and total separation of one's RL identity from the wikiworld on the other. At a minimum, it is clear that at this time, Prioryman does not want his RL name mentioned on-wiki. That preference, like any editor's, should be respected to the fullest extent possible.

As this Committee has observed several times, there is an unresolved tension between the project's policies against "outing" and our guidelines governing conflicts of interest, because it is sometimes impossible to diagnose or meaningfully discuss a COI without acknowledging who someone is. One can imagine conceivable scenarios in which it would become necessary, after careful deliberation and for a very good reason, to mention a (formerly) anonymous editor's name on-wiki. The example that has quickly become canonical is: "What if Qworty hadn't posted his name on his page before he was banned? Would we be unable to talk about his behavior, even as the rest of the world does so?" Our policy does not really deal with that kind of scenario.

But short of some sort of very serious COI problem or the like, there is simply no reason to mention Prioryman's (or anyone else's) real name on-wiki, especially if one knows that he prefers that it not be done. I don't see a lot of value in discussing whether this behavior should formally be classed as "outing". It is sufficient to say that "doing something that one knows annoys another editor, without any corresponding benefit" is a classic example of what one might call harassment, or at least unhelpful behavior. So in my mind, the starting point for the discussion should not be "are we allowed to mention Prioryman's real name?" but "why is it desirable to even think about doing so?"

A similar question has been raised concerning whether one may refer to Prioryman's former account name. In general, an editor is entitled to be referred to by his or her current username and not a previous one. In my view, it is permissible to refer to Prioryman's prior username where there is a specific and meaningful reason to do so, but not to do so gratuitously or unnecessarily. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:44, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Following up on the above, it bears emphasis that the project's current COI guideline and COI noticeboard instructions assert that the desire to avoid COI problems yields to the policy against "outing," i.e. revealing the identity of editors against their wishes, when the two are in conflict. See Misplaced Pages:COI#Avoid_outing. Whether that goal is realistically attainable in every case is partly a practical question and partly a policy question, and the extent to which an editors' name being disclosed elsewhere online or being widely known bears on the issue is something on which policy is less than clear. I realize that this is not exactly helpful, actionable guidance, and will try to formulate something that is sharper, but the project as a whole has been grappling with the tension between the COI-discouragement and the non-identification ideals for at least seven years without being able to resolve them, so I can't promise an access of insight overnight. One thing that I can say is that the reaction to an editor who mentions someone's name in good faith in a COI discussion should be very different from the reaction to one who does it for the purpose of annoying or harassing, so as with any other violation of policy, an appropriately tailored caution or warning will often (not always) be the proper response to a good-faith first offense (not saying that is what happened here, just speaking generally). Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Turning to another question, whether warnings or notices can be retracted and whether they are appealable. If an editor has edited problematically in a given area subject to DS, even borderline problematically, letting him or her know that there are DS available in the topic-area and at least one administrator perceives he or she may be getting close to incurring one, is generally a service for everyone. Such notices are not necessarily meant to be seen as scarlet letters, and entertaining appeals of "I didn't deserved to be warned" on the same basis as "I didn't deserve to be 1RR'd" or "I didn't deserve to be topic-banned" isn't likely to be a good use of everyone's time. On the other hand, I'm reluctant to rule out the idea that such notifications are appealable ever. If an administrator, for example, started issuing notifications/warnings to editors who did not even arguably do anything wrong, I'd be hard-pressed to say that they must automatically stand without reexamination. So my own take, which may not be the Committee's, is that a warning may be brought up for review but only where it was clearly undeserved and inappropriate. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• I will also respond to Sandstein's first question while contemplating the other two. As far as I know (and I've had plenty of reason to review this over the years), the editor in question has never published his full name onwiki, and has made it very clear that he considers any on-wiki publication of his full name (or anything that could be construed to be his full name) to be outing and/or harassment. As such, Drg55's repeated insertion of that information constitutes at least an intentional effort to harass the user and link him to an off-wiki identity. This outing took place in direct relation to a topic that Drg55 knew was under Arbcom and discretionary sanctions, as he was appealing a sanction that had been applied to him. Therefore, the removal and warning to Drg55 from Future Perfect at Sunrise and the subsequent block by Sandstein on Drg55 under the discretionary sanctions of the Scientology arbitration case are appropriate and I see no cause to lift these sanctions. Risker (talk) 04:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• The clarification regarding the policy on discretionary sanctions is almost ready and will be posted on wiki for discussion and voting soon, I believe. I'm sorry it took this long, but it was a complicated effort and there are still disagreements among the committee as to certain details. That said, I agree with Heimstern Läufer that warnings cannot be rescinded, as they are merely notices; and when a person has been made aware of them, there is no way he may "be made unaware" again.

  Furthermore, Sandstein, in my opinion, your approach to discretionary sanctions is way too legalistic. Our decisions are not legal documents and cannot be interpreted using the same construction rules a lawyer would use to interpret an act of Parliament: as far as I'm concerned, I expect people to interpret and enforce our decisions using commonsense, never forgetting that IAR is one of the five pillars. Not to mention that discretionary sanctions are always "authorised" and never made compulsory, which means that an administrator should use his discretion to determine whether the imposition of restrictions is the best way to stop the disruption an editor is causing; if not, then nobody is obliged or expected to impose a discretionary sanction.

  Also, I believe that the sanction you imposed on The Devil's Advocate was not warranted and, what's more, I'm not sure it was validly imposed (I'm not sure questioning a sanction you've imposed can be considered making edits about a topic, not even using a very broad construction of the clause).

  Finally, and I know I disagree with my colleagues here, since the link between Prioryman and ChrisO has been disclosed many times on wiki, including by ArbCom, to say that the two accounts are the same person is not outing. Moreover, *in my opinion*, not even saying what the "O" stands for is outing because it was indirectly acknowledged by the subject and was the basis of an ArbCom's finding of fact. Again only in my opinion, WP:OUTING only protects those who try to protect their identity: no policy on Misplaced Pages demands that editors play dumb... Referring to Prioryman's name may be harassment, when done maliciously, with the sole intent of causing him distress, but that's the exception, not the other way around. Salvio 09:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

  • @Peter cohen: I think that warnings are merely a way to insure that a user editing in a contentious area does not get sanctioned out of the blue; the way I see them, so, warnings are a way to protect editors from unpleasant surprises. Which means that, no matter the reason, once someone has been notified that DS have been authorised for a given topic area, there is no way for that person to be un-notified. If there is a good reason, I have no objections to removing a warning from the log, but that does not invalidate the notification.

    @Newyorkbrad: which may not be the Committee's, is that a warning may be brought up for review but only where it was clearly undeserved and inappropriate., almost every warned editor thinks the warning was clearly undeserved; your limit would be pretty much useless and would require us to waste our time all the same, even if only to make sure that the warning in question was appropriate and deserved. I don't think that's a productive use of our limited resources. Salvio 21:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

    • @Beyond My Ken: there is a difference between criticising and denigrating and I'm surprised that someone here is confusing what I consider constructive criticism with belittlement.

      @A Quest For Knowledge: & @TransporterMan: yes, those aspects (and others) will be clarified hoperfully soon. Salvio 09:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• Responding to Sandstein's questions and using his numbering;

  1. Back in the day, the editor's real life identity was common knowledge within the Scientology topic. He regularly linked to sites mentioning it and acquiesced when it was used on-wiki. At that time though, the applicable policies were not as they are today and current policies acknowledge an individual's wish for a degree of personal privacy. It follows, therefore, that while referring to him by his real name is not outing, such references may well be intended to have a chilling effect or to cause discomfort.

  2. In my view, it's overreach to use discretionary sanctions for matters which are only coincidentally related to the topic and which can be dealt with satisfactorily underr existing policy. I haven't looked at this situation closely enough to see whether that is the case here.

  3. Discretionary sanctions are intended to provide fast track remedies to contain disruption arising from dysfunctional conduct in relation to the topic. They do this by sidestepping the usual community dispute resolution processes. Because they give administrators greater powers, and limit appeal options, they should be applied conservatively.

  Otherwise, I agree entirely with Salvio's point. Someone can no more be unnotified than they can take back a sneeze. Roger Davies 17:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Couple of quick points in response to Sandstein. I haven't had the time, nor likely will I be able, to read all of the background.

1. It's pretty clear at this time which account Prioryman used to use. It is also clear that Prioryman at the time did not object to the use of his real name in general discourse: I see now-banned editors and then-administrators alike using it in the archives. However, Prioryman now longer wishes other editors to refer to him by his real name; accordingly, the only appropriate reason to use the name of his old account is "for discussions of conflict of interest in appropriate forums" (Misplaced Pages:Harassment). I don't think it matters what things were in the past; there is really no legitimate reason to continue using it. BASC is hearing Drg55's block now; that is a separate process and we can handle it as per usual.
2. It's a stretch of the discretionary sanctions procedure, but in my view that's an appropriate use of both discretionary sanctions and the standard administrators' toolkit. It may have not been warranted in this case ultimately, but that's a separate matter.
3. Discretionary sanctions absolutely do not need to be used in narrow cases only. An individual administrator can adopt that approach, but it is not required.

• And I really really apologize for previously promising and failing to follow through, but we really are working on an updated discretionary sanctions procedure that should moot the current ambiguousness about both warning prerequisites and rescindability. NW (Talk) 14:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)