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Disambiguation

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Disambiguation, an attempt to structure and organize all disambiguation pages on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to help, you can edit the page attached to this talk page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project or contribute to the discussion.DisambiguationWikipedia:WikiProject DisambiguationTemplate:WikiProject DisambiguationDisambiguation

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC

Should WP:PRIMARYTOPIC specifically say something stronger about our geek-TV-mp3 systematic bias? Such as "page views are not a reliable indicator of what is the real primary topic for an encyclopedia when one of the topics is related to popular culture" ? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. Page views are still reliable for usage, even for pop culture topics, when there is not a single topic that meets "long-term significance". Pop culture topics without long-term significance are handled by that criterion. Readers of the encyclopedia who are interested in pop culture topics are also served, and topics inappropriate for encyclopedia coverage should be deleted instead of changing the primary topic criteria. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:00, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Given how the usage criteria has been discounted in recent move discussions, we might as well remove it altogether as a criterion. older ≠ wiser 21:03, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I have observed the same thing, and recommended before that we simply scrap the criteria entirely, since every title's discussion goes with WP:IAR, and those that want to use usage can continue to do so without needing permission here, and those that want historical significance can do so without needing permission here. Once any given title's kerfuffle has settled and either there's a primary topic or not, the dab guidelines can show how to arrange them and format the dab. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Set index articles

Do Set index articles have a talk page template, or not? --DThomsen8 (talk) 19:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

They can, as appropriate to their subject matter, just like any list article can. They aren't disambiguation pages, though, so they don't use the disambiguation project talk page template. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I have added {{WikiProject Anthroponymy|class=list|importance=low}} to the Withe:talk page, above my earlier question there. Please help me understand how to untangle Withe as a surname from the term withy or withe for the thatching material. I want disambiguation for the different word usages for a surname, and a material. How can I do that?--DThomsen8 (talk) 23:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Can you move the page to Withe (surname)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Canoe1967 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be inadvisable unless another page were created at Withe. --BDD (talk) 01:57, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

From the above, I believe I know what to do, but not late at night. --DThomsen8 (talk) 02:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually another editor added a hatnote, which solves the dilemma.--DThomsen8 (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Problematic disambiguation template

There is a species list generating template that is very problematic. Please comment on it at Template talk:Species abbreviation#No good for disambiguation. Thanks, Ego White Tray (talk) 02:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Partial title match discussion in progress

Please see Talk:Digital#Disambiguation page -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, too bad you waited till the 3rd time you reverted to actually join the discussion. And your friend DexDor didn't even join the discussion when reverting it again today. But I guess you consider your weak consensus of 2 people enough to justify your sloppy hatchet job edit warring tag team. Then you had the nerve to tell me not to revert with only edit summaries. Take your own advice. At least I was in on the actual discussion page of the disambiguation page.

You didn't mention why you think any of the links you deleted specifically had no significant risk of confusion or the article's subject (or the relevant subtopic thereof) couldn't plausibly be referred to by essentially the same name as the disambiguated term in a sufficiently generic context. DexDor only mentioned 1 "Digital Surf" when he deleted the 13 other links. To be honest, I don't give a sh!t about the entertainment titles or the organizations. I didn't add the links. I just left them there from previous edits because they weren't being addressed case-by-case. It's the links under technology that are often misunderstood or oversimplified as digital. It's the links under technology that prove neither of you are being careful with your administrative "efforts" if you can call it that. It doesn't take much effort to destructively delete content and point to a guide.

Go ahead. Tell me you've never heard electronic media colloquially or generically referred to as "digital." Go ahead. Just keep running around looking for disambiguation pages to apply your beloved guidelines to without getting involved in the discussion. Just keep shooting from the hip with your vague subjective MOS badge of authority. Way to go folks! Way to encourage participation! Oicumayberight (talk) 05:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I didn't "join" the conversation, I started the conversation after the move request was closed and carried out; it's too bad you didn't start the conversation instead of reverting. It's also too bad you cast edits you disagree with as "bot like". It's too bad you assume that anyone else who reverts your edits must be doing so because they're my friend. It's too bad that you disagree with the disambiguation guidelines and think that streamlining the readers' navigation means a "hatchet job". And it's too bad you're using this forum to discuss Digital rather than Talk:Digital. Just keep shooting from the hip with your vague subjective IAR badge of authority. Way to go folk! Way to work with the community! -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I did work with the community. I worked with it from the detailed surgical "boots on the ground" level at talk:digital data and that specific disambiguation page. I worked constructively. And I got plenty of cooperation for good reason. The MOS was applied destructively at a hatchet bot-like "drone from the sky" level with little regard for what was going on at the detailed level, on the ground. You dropped a bomb on your own troops. You didn't care about the specifics of the articles. You are obviously looking at just the titles and assuming that the guide applies. WP:IAR is not about authority. It's about encouragement and concern for quality when the rules and guides oversimplify the problem. Oicumayberight (talk) 15:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Parenthetical dismbiguatory terms and article titles

See Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles#Inadequacy of current WP:UE guideline with regard to Chinese names, where it is discussed if non-English characters are ever acceptable in article titles, even in disambiguatory parens. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Subjective CREEP

It's no surprise that 2 of the 3 people whom have tag-teamed reverting my edits to the digital page are behind the development and advocacy for this policy. The wording of this section is vague. There's no way to prove evidence of absence in the "no significant risk of confusion or reference." Evidence I've shown of exceptions "article's subject (or the relevant subtopic thereof) could plausibly be referred to by essentially the same name as the disambiguated term in a sufficiently generic context—regardless of the article's title" is being rejected as "dubious ambiguity" (whatever that means) and excluding "informal conversations on chat boards" as evidence of any use in a generic context.

PTM is WP:CREEP being used as a fake badge of authority to make sweeping changes and shoot from the hip bold edits without building consensus. PTM is being applied sloppily with little regard for details or harm it may do to specific topics. And there's no proof of principle when the legislators are also the main enforcers. Oicumayberight (talk) 03:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Erm, while the specialized language used here can be confusing, I hope you realize that the "partially disambiguated page names" (WP:PDAB) discussed in the preceding sections is a completely different topic that the "partial title matches" (WP:PTM) you have been edit warring over. older ≠ wiser 03:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I've made it it's own section now. You could have just moved it yourself, but I don't mind the jab. Oicumayberight (talk) 04:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be a jab (well, perhaps the mention of edit warring was). But I try to avoid refactoring comments by other editors except in extreme cases. older ≠ wiser 04:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, it's no surprise that one editor who has been revert-warring against multiple editors and the broader consensus is grasping at straws and resorting to wikilawyering. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:JUSTAPOLICY is not "broader consensus." Oicumayberight (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Grasping at straws again. Yes, the policies and guidelines are indeed the broader consensus. Their application to disambiguation pages in general and to Digital in particular has been explained beyond simple linking to the policy, so WP:JUSTAPOLICY is not a counter argument here. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Sure there's broader consensus on what should be said/intended by the policy. There's no broad consensus on the individual articles that were reverted based on the policy. WP:JUSTAPOLICY reverts without discussion was what occurred 3 times before you got involved in the discussion. Why are you so defensive if your certain you were justified by the policy? Oicumayberight (talk) 19:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Like everything else, you misunderstand. My responses are not defensive, but explanatory. They only seem defensive by comparison to the aggression in your comments. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about your actions as they relate to the policy as evidence to room for improvement in the wording in the policy. You haven't mentioned the wording once. Your first post in this section was an attack on my intent as "grasping at straws." You don't seem to be here to discuss the policy. You only seem to be here to defend your actions and condemn mine. Try being constructive. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

You're starting from the assumption that the policy is wrong and you're right, and trying to change the wording of the policy to agree with you. Your first note here referred to the multiple editors who reverted you as a tag-team. You accused Bkonrad of a jab where there was none. You then accused me of being defensive. Yes, some constructive comments would be useful, and even more useful after some reflection on why the guidelines are the way they are and where your approach might benefit from changing to align better with the policy, rather than trying to align the guidelines to your preferred approach. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I've read the policy. I'm not convinced of it's clarity, which means there's room for improvement if not simply the wording to make it more convincing to people like me. You're actions are proof that the subjectivity in the guide is potentially problematic. Deal with it or accept it. You wouldn't be going round and round with me if you didn't think you had anything to lose. Nobody is threatening you. There's only room for improvement here. If you can't see that room for improvement in the actual guiding potential of the guide, then move on. I'm sure there's some other messy disambiguation pages that could use your bot-like editing style. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

No proof here, other than of your wikilawyering. Accept it or deal with it. Your attempts at deducing my motivations for being here are as inaccurate as your reading of WP:PTM. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:41, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

"Inaccurate reading" is an assumption on your part, which is telling. Go ahead, tell me which words you think I've misinterpreted. Just don't try to tell me that I've misinterpreted an adjective or adverbs. The fact that you assumed I didn't read it accurately leads me to believe that you are basing that assumption on the fact that I didn't interpret the subjective parts the same way you interpreted them. This leads me to believe that you fail to see that adjectives are subjective. Assuming good faith, this would explain your overconfidence in your ability to edit without stirring up conflict, applying WP:JUSTAPOLICY and ignoring WP:BRD while deleting multiple links in bot-like fashion. If you don't understand what subjectivity is, then of course you wouldn't know it when you see it in PTM. I'll give you a hint, look at the PTM policy words that end in "ly". Oicumayberight (talk) 03:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• PTM is a sound guideline and not new. This is absurd. --BDD (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the subjectivity of the wording was ever noticed or challenged as a problem until it has been stretched and over-applied recently while ignoring WP:BRD with JHunter's 3 attempts at WP:JUSTAPOLICY on the digital page alone. And now we have Bkonrad interpreting it in the strictest possible way on the discussion page, obviously lacking neutrality in the debate.

I've encountered a similar situation where another user was reverting using WP:ICONDECORATION with no discussion other than WP:JUSTAPOLICY in the comments. There was only one user that was abusing the guide, but never saw himself as the problem. The conflict escalated when the non-neutral advocates for the guide jumped in on the side of the one abuser. After several pages of discussion and dozens of other users complaining about the same type of abuse, that section was reworded to be more objective. I'm sure that most editors aren't as assertive as I am and would just give up when WP:JUSTAPOLICY is thrown at them, never knowing that WP:IAR is an option. So you'd never suspect that subjective wording would be a problem if it weren't for the rare editor willing to WP:IAR. And I would consider myself to be a rarer of the rare editors willing to collaborate on improving a guide that is used against their own edits.

This is how the guide gets improved with neutrality. The original developers and newer advocates never see a problem with their own guide until someone like me who's not an advocate for the guide gets involved. If the guide made perfect sense to everyone who reads it, than nobody would ever have a problem with it. If you don't see how the subjectivity in the guide could get exploited, then you may miss the opportunity to improve the guide. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, that was a bit harsh, so I should elaborate. Listing a bunch of titles at a dab that just happen to share one or more words in their titles is bad practice because it results in cluttered pages that become less useful to readers. A partial title is only ok to list on a dab when that entity could reasonably referred to by that name alone. So it's ok to list Pittsburgh Penguins at Penguin (disambiguation). You might hear something like "The Penguins won last night" to refer to the hockey team. But to pull some examples from Digital, you would never hear a term like digital divide referred to solely as "digital." The role of a dab is not to perform a search for the reader. There's nothing wrong with using an {{intitle}}, as Digital has, but the template is all the more reason to avoid listing PTMs. --BDD (talk) 16:06, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

They wouldn't call it "digital." But they might only link the word "digital" in a phrase from an article that said something to the effect of "digital country" or "digital nation" to refer to a country that is mostly "digital" not knowing that there was an article titled "digital divide." The disambiguation page would make it easier to find the digital divide article without knowing that was the common term, but not if it was buried with hundreds of other links with the word "digital" in the title. And "digital divide" may not be the best article to describe the concept, but I'm certain it would be more accurate than "digital data." It's better to have a disambiguation page with the 10 or 20 most common meanings than to have the 3 or 4 of the most oversimplified meanings and then 1 link to hundreds of other alternate meanings at the bottom of the page. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

There might be scope for a broad-concept article serving as an overview of all things digital. But that would be separate from the disambiguation page. older ≠ wiser 16:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

That was discussed on Talk:Digital data before the page was renamed. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The existence of a disambiguation page for truly ambiguous uses of a term does not preclude a broad concept article addressing related variations on the theme. See Particle, Particle (disambiguation). Cheers! bd2412 T 22:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

It was one of my suggestions in the discussion. The disambiguation page seemed to be the easier fix for now if only temporary. And the way things are turning out, it was very temporary. It only lasted 2 days before someone deleted half the links. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• I also don't see any reason to dispute the PTM policy based on what's been going on at digital, it's still as clear and meaningful as before. If anyone wants to change "digital" into a broad concept article, that's orthogonal to the partial title match policy. --Joy (talk) 08:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I consider the subjectivity in the policy a road hazard. Sure the drivers may be partially at fault for the collision that has occurred. But the road conditions and traffic signals could be improved. I can see three possible ways of improving it:

1. Remove the subjectivity either by reducing the adjectives in the wording or showing more examples of how to determine what's ambiguous enough to be linked on the page. All adjectives are subjective to a degree.

2. Add more thorough instructions as to how to apply the guide to avoid the temptation of WP:JUSTAPOLICY from people who lack the ability to judge more carefully or just like to make bot-like edits. Maybe Add a rule that PTV shouldn't be applied without discussion on the talk page (instead of the edit comment) and without discussing each link removed case-by-case in the case of multiple links removed.

3. Add more thorough instructions to what doesn't apply. For example, I don't think WP:V applies to this policy, nor was it meant to be used in this policy. Even if it applies, it shouldn't be applied as strictly as it has in this case. Verifying of ambiguity to a degree acceptable for the deletionists wikipedians isn't as easy as proving something as absolute as facts or quotes from reliable sources. And a directory pages and listings aren't the same as articles that are supposed to be factual. It should be a judgement call, but not one that is made legalistic by wikipedia rules designed to solve problems of a different nature.

Any or all of the above would be an improvement. A broad concept article would only fix one problem. Fixing PTM wouldn't hurt. It could only help. It could avoid this sort of collision in the future. Or we could just let it happen again. This time, maybe it was hurt feelings and damaged reputations. In the future, it may lead to good editors and even users getting turned off from wikipedia altogether. Oicumayberight (talk) 01:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Personally I don't really see the problem. The examples now used in the policy are fairly clear to me: the first is an apposition (Baltimore Zoo) and the second is an adjective (North Carolina). Allowing the vernacular uses of "digital" to creep into the disambiguation page as if they were disambiguation items would be a very slippery slope and it would be contrary to the spirit of the partial title match policy - keep the disambiguation pages straightforward, rather than a messy amorphous mass. --Joy (talk) 12:11, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

The examples in the PTM wording are not good examples of what we are dealing with on the actual disambiguation page. Both examples are about nouns, places, explicit locations, not about adjectives like "digital." Adjectives are much more ambiguous than locations. Adjectives get used more often. Just google the words "mississippi," "zoo," and "digital". The word "digital" gets 10 times more hits. The word "digital" is used much more often than the other two words. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. If "digital" is a disambiguation page, it needs to list the different meanings of the word "digital". It does not need to list all the various phrases in which the word "digital" is also used. --Joy (talk) 20:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The page didn't simply list phrases that contained the word "digital." There are hundreds of phrases that contain the word "digital." The page listed only a dozen or less of the most common concepts (not labels) that could generically and colloquially be referred to as "digital" whether or not the word "digital" was used in the terms. But the guide was over applied and over half were carelessly removed while some of the least common uses were allowed to stay. It should have been a case-by-case edit with more discussion than WP:JUSTAPOLICY. The subjectivity in the policy mistaken as objective is what invites this kind of abuse. Oicumayberight (talk) 21:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I disagree that that edit was subjective. For example, it was pointless to link to "electronic media" because the linked article doesn't even mention this usage. Another clear example is "digital native" - it's both undocumented in the target article, and quite confusing, because you simply don't call one of those people "a digital", IOW there's no ambiguity between "digital" and "digital native". Besides, you seem to be missing the more general point: disambiguation exists to distinguish between several eponymous but different topics. Electronic media and digital media and the other uses of "digital" aren't ambiguous, rather, they're applications of the same broad concept. --Joy (talk) 12:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

First, when someone mistakes "digital" to simply mean "electronic," then it's an oversimplification. There is no need to mention the misuse in the article if the misuse is mentioned in the disambiguation page. If they found the article any other way besides the disambiguation page, then they obviously aren't making the mistake. The disambiguation page only serves to correct the mistake in that regard. An editor may even find the digital media article and see that it's an oversimplification. But not knowing that there's an electronic media article which includes digital media, they might simply link "digital" as part of a phrase.

Second, as mentioned before, because digital is an adjective, it's often linked by itself as part of a phrase. So it's unlikely that someone will call a digital native, simply a "digital." But not knowing there's an article called "digital native" someone might link just the single word "digital" in that phrase (e.g. digital native) or the single word "digital" in a similar phrase such as "digital youth" or "digital generation." If they were to link the entire phrase, a redirect might solve the problem. But the disambiguation page could serve to preempt the need for a redirect. Not all editors will think to use a redirect. I've found dozens of articles where they simply link the adjective digital. If you don't believe me, check the "what links here" for digital data. Most of those links were made before the article was renamed from the single word "digital." Many of them are still linked from a single word even after the bot linked the single word to digital data.

Third, I don't see disambiguation pages as exclusively for linking to ambiguous concept articles. I see how a disambiguation page can help (more accurately than search) clear up confusion when linking from ambiguous terms. So although the articles aren't ambiguous, the links from the term "digital" even as part of a phrase is often ambiguous enough to link to an oversimplification or misunderstood meaning in the context in the article it was linked from, not the article it links to. I'm not missing the more general point of disambiguation pages. Instead some of the project disambiguation members seem to be misunderstanding the full scope of what it means to be ambiguous. People who project there own perspective on to other people tend to think somethings are not ambiguous just because they personally understand the context themselves. What makes a term ambiguous is whether or not one or most people understand it, but instead, whether or not it could be misunderstood by anyone. It's never a question of whether or not an adjective like "digital" is ambiguous, even as part of a phrase. All adjectives are ambiguous to a degree. The question is whether or not any particular usage of the adjective by itself or as part of a phrase is ambiguous enough to be included in the disambiguation page along with any synonyms whether or not they include the adjective. It's a question that should be answered on a case-by-case basis. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, there are several noun senses of "Digital", as the name of songs or albums. All words are potentially "ambiguous" to the degree that people are paying attention. Somewhere out there is a person who would confuse digital with didgeridoo, but if we listed every possible point of misunderstanding, our disambiguation pages would be endless, and therefore useless to anyone trying to find the most likely search target. bd2412 T 20:16, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

It looks like my main point that's not coming across is that "digital" would no longer be a disambiguation page, rather it would contain the broad-concept article. In other words, the broad concept would be the seen as the primary topic, and the disambiguation page would move out, and in turn be linked from a hatnote. --Joy (talk) 20:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I understand that the broad concept article would make the difference, if it existed. And even if it existed, it's not mutually exclusive from a more helpful disambiguation page. The disambiguation page could serve as an easy temporary fix if it only listed 10 or 20 of the most common usage and misuses of the term. It doesn't have to be hundreds of links. There's already hundreds of links in the links from the see also section. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. I still think that a disambiguation page should simply be a disambiguation page, it shouldn't attempt to fix all sorts of tangentially related problems - a broad concept article can do so instead. --Joy (talk) 21:16, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• All flaming aside, I'm not looking to have PTM removed. I'm mainly looking for acknowledgement of the obvious ambiguity in the wording rather than simple denial, and for someone to address my 3 numbered suggestions for improvement midway through the discussion. Either tell me why they wouldn't improve the usability of this guide or consider supporting a rewording effort. Oicumayberight (talk) 21:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Do you think Running back, Running mate, Running on Empty, Running Scared, and Running with Scissors should be on Running (disambiguation)? That is the sort of thing that this policy is intended to stem. If we included every title containing "Running" then the page would expand by about 300 entries, most of which would never be something someone would look for, or expect to find, under the word "Running" alone. That's why the page only includes things that can be shown to be referred to by the disambiguation term alone. bd2412 T 03:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
    • That's not the same problem. I understand that PTM is to keep too many links from ending up on a single disambiguation page. Limiting the number of links can be as simple as saying no more than a dozen or two dozen links per page. Then it would just require a little judgment on determining which links are most likely. However, disambiguating a noun (like the "zoo" or "mississippi" examples in the PTM wording) or a verb (like the "running" In the examples you give) isn't the same as disambiguating an adjective like "digital." I can't see that a person would link just the word "running" in the word "running back." But more often than not, if single adjectives like the word "digital" are linked, they will be linked as single words in part of a phrase. The examples given in the PTM wording are easy noun examples that don't address the more difficult and more likely use of ambiguous adjectives. Oicumayberight (talk) 04:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Here's some examples of "digital" linked as a single word in part of a phrase: Oicumayberight (talk) 05:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
      • First, "running" is both a verb and a noun. The senses on the page are primarily noun senses. Second, we can't limit a disambiguation page to a certain number of links. Look at Phoenix and John Smith. Each has dozens and dozens of exact title matches. Without a PTM rule, a numerical limitation would be meaningless. How would you decide which ones to leave out? Finally, as to your examples, when used purely as an adjective, digital should not be linked at all. When used as part of a phrase like "digital landscape" or "digital switching systems", the entire phrase is the thing that should be linked, and ideally should link or redirect to a relevant article. We have this issue with pages like Beautiful, where there are many songs, albums, and similar works by that name, but where the adjective by itself is a common word that should never be linked. bd2412 T 12:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You said "without a PTM rule." Again, I'm not advocating to get rid of PTM. I'm advocating to improve the wording of PTM. Yes, PTM should primarily determine what doesn't get linked.

It is good that you have addressed an adjective this time. We are getting closer to understanding each other. PTM works well on disambiguation pages like beautiful where there's lots of articles and uses with the single word title, and there is a broad concept article. Most people know that beauty is subjective and know that linking just the single word "beautiful" of a phrase (not a title) will be used in the intended context. There are very few alternate meanings, although it wouldn't hurt to have a link to aesthetics and Taste (sociology) in the disambiguation page.

However, In the case of "digital," a particular user's interpretation of PTM didn't work well. There is no broad concept article. There isn't as many single word title articles. I'm finding more often than not, articles linking the single word are not in the intended context. And there is more than just a couple of alternative meanings. Since digital is the near opposite meaning of analog, it should almost be a mirror inverse of what the analog disambiguation page looks like. You can see by the Talk:Analog page that it was handled with a little more sensitivity by the same user in hindsight of how the digital disambiguation page was handled. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:34, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

"A particular user's interpretation" is incorrect since it is "All but one of the editors' interpretations". And it is working well. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

"All but one?" how soon we forget. So now it's about WP:MAJORITY? And that assumes that all the editors before you got involved agree with your deletions too. I know they didn't put the links there just to have them removed. I suggest you take a cue from your fellow wikiproject disambiguation member bd2412 and address the actual points of the discussion. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh BTW bd2412, on your last point, I agree that the entire phrase should be linked and pointed to an actual article. My goal is to make disambiguation pages more useful in helping editors find the most relevant articles, without making the disambiguation page too long to browse or too short to be functional. Thats why I think if the disambiguation page has no more than a dozen or two links and they are listed in order of most common to least common usage, it will work as well as it could without being a search engine. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

No. Listing "in order of most common to least common usage" (rather than dividing into sections for people, places, books etc) would make dab pages harder to use - and much harder to maintain. DexDor (talk) 05:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

You can still divide into sections and sort the sections from most common to least common usage in the context of the word or term. Then you could sort the links within the sections from most common to least common usage within each section. It's what is known as a multiple sort criteria. It's what's already in effect. There isn't that much consistency the way it is now. Sometimes people even sort alphabetically. Oicumayberight (talk) 16:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Oicumayberight, I'm not sure how many more times can we rehash the same argument... please write the broad concept article! :) --Joy (talk) 07:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Joy , I've agreed with you on the need for a broad concept article, although I probably won't contribute outside of the talk page. I've accepted your agreement to disagree on the need to improve the wording of PTM in the guide and digital disambiguation page. If you don't have anything more to add, I'm here to discuss it with anyone else who is willing. So far, bd2412 has been the only one willing to advanced the discussion by addressing PTM as it applies to adjectives. Oicumayberight (talk) 16:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Support WP:PTM staying. It's common sense but I've seen many an example of folk linking to things just like the Baltimore Zoo example. --RA (✍) 23:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is advocating removing WP:PTM. I'm advocating amending and maybe rewording it to help the guide users be a little more sensitive towards disambiguating adjectives. Oicumayberight (talk) 01:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:PRIMARYTOPIC

I think the term 'primary topic' needs to be further defined. When there is a term that has two or more commonly used meanings but one term is more common, the page should not be redirected. Redirecting the page would cause many users using the Misplaced Pages search engine to be directed to the wrong page and therefore have to use alternative terminology to reach the page they are looking for. This effectively means Misplaced Pages is influencing the terminology people use to describe an entity which I don't think is right. An example would be the Britain article, which currently isn't redirected to the most common topic (the United Kingdom) however could be under the current policy. Regards, Rob (talk) 19:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It already has to be "much more used than any other", along with being "more than all others combined". The identification of an agreeable extension to that has proved elusive, and the extension to "use a disambiguation page at the base name for every ambiguous title" has also proved unworkable (as it would displace William Shakespeare, Earth, and Banana). It could be further undefined to simply leave every PT decision the the base name's talk page. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Based on your explanation, The Dark Knight (film) should be moved to The Dark Knight without a discussion. Randomuser112 (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be an incorrect conclusion from my explanation of one of the criteria for primary topic. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:11, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that it is vitally important that we remember that disambiguation pages are not an end in themselves. They are merely a navigational aid, like an index or a table of contents. Where most people will be looking for a particular meaning of a term, there is no need to provide further navigational assistance. Where there are only two or three meanings, and one is the most prominent, putting the other meanings in a hatnote can provide all the navigational assistance that is needed. I think Apple has it exactly right - a primary topic based on historic significance, and a hatnote indicating the most likely second choice, and linking to a disambiguation page for all other meanings. bd2412 T 00:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• I disagree ever so slightly. A disambiguation page is more than a navigation aid. As a reader, I often find disambiguation pages very useful for the quick summary on a number of related, conceptually and phonetically, subjects. Much more useful than any Portal page I've seen! --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  I agree with SmokeyJoe here. Not infrequently, a disambig page clues me in to an important relationship about my topic that I was unaware of. I say "oh, there were two people by that name, and I had them in mind as one", or "hey, that movie came from a book, which might be where I'll find what I'm looking for", or "whoa, so many cities with this name", or whatever. Dicklyon (talk) 05:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  They are happenstance means to discovery, sure, and those unexpected discoveries can be cool. But that's not disambiguation's mission, it's just a happy side effect. And the side effect is still achieved whether the dab page is at the base name or not. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:11, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  If a movie came from a book, it should say so in the lede of the article about the movie (and probably should have a hatnote to this effect). Since many movies come from books with titles different from the title of the movie, it should not generally be left to disambiguation pages to convey that relationship. As for other relationships with other terms, if this is significant than it should be mentioned in the article. For example, the article on Jupiter says, "The Romans named the planet after the Roman god Jupiter". In the rare case that there is much more to be said about the word itself, then we can have an article on the word, such as Eureka (word). As a practical matter, we need to balance the desire of those who wish to be whisked along random paths of discovery with those who are actually searching for a specific, concrete result. bd2412 T 16:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Going back to my example, most people searching the term Britain will be looking for the United Kingdom however there will still be a huge amount of people looking for Great Britain. Even though more people are looking for the United Kingdom then all other pages combined, it still wouldn't be right as a huge amount of readers would end up at the wrong page. I really don't think hatnotes are ideal because readers will still be influenced to use alternative terminology to get to the Great Britain article in future. Regards, Rob (talk) 13:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the hypothetical influence on future terminology selection is going to be significant or detrimental. If more people are looking for "UK" than all other pages combined, then sending them to the "UK" could be right. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

There would still be a huge amount of people looking the the Great Britain article who would end up at the wrong article. I don't think primary topics should be decided on ratios. Disambiguation pages really aren't that inconvenient and therefore I think a primary topic should only be chosen if all other pages are rarely described using the term. Regards Rob (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Then we'd have to understand "rarely" (which would still move the disambiguation pages for "Apple", "Earth", "Adam", "School", etc., etc. to the base name. They have alternate meanings that are more-than-rarely described using the term, which would not be the consensus). So we're back to my original response: there are plenty of opinions on what primary topics shouldn't be decided upon, but precious little agreement on what they should be decided upon. Usage and long-term significance are the best we've got so far, and we're willing to accept those rather than put those not-too-inconvenient dab pages at the base name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

You have a good point. Personally I would have all these terms moved to disambiguation however as you say that would not be the consensus. I would like to see long-term significance part of the policy as it would remove anomalies such as Britain. Regards, Rob (talk) 16:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Being taken to a disambiguation page can be a great inconvenience to the person who is clicking through from a link in another page, and expects to be taken to the subject of that link instead of a possibly massive directory of terms that might have been meant (but obviously were not). bd2412 T 16:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Initially yes, but eventually all links could be directed to the appropriate pages. Short term issues really shouldn't decide what decisions are taken. The only real disadvantage is when using the wikipedia search engine, however I would argue that it's better for all readers to be taken to a disambiguation page rather then have some readers being directed to a page they are not looking for. Regards, Rob (talk) 17:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no "initially" and "eventually" here, as this is a constantly evolving project, with new links constantly being added. We already have hundreds of thousands of disambiguation links, and get hundreds of new erroneous links every single day to clearly ambiguous topics like Mercury and Phoenix and MA. Imagine how many we would get if Apple and George Washington and Mouse were also disambiguation pages, just because some readers have another meaning in mind when they search for the term. bd2412 T 23:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Long-term significance is currently part of the guideline: "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term." -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I can't believe I missed that. Thanks, Rob (talk) 17:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm curious what exactly is meant by educational value? Would this exclude Britain from being redirected to the United Kingdom due to it also being used to describe Great Britain? Thanks, Rob (talk) 19:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I noticed this: 'In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage and one of primary long-term significance. In such a case, consensus determines which article, if either, is the primary topic.' Surely this would mean there effectively isn't a primary topic and therefore the term should be left at the disambiguation page? Regards, Rob (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

It means consensus determines if one of the topics is primary or if there isn't a primary topic. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:44, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Rob and Smokey Joe. The Disambiguation pages should be more useful than search. The recent edits based on just a handful of interpreters of this guide are making it no better than search by their own admission. I know this wasn't a primary topic dispute, but it's the same effect. Disambiguations pages are being stripped of their usefulness. It seems to be putting forum over function. What's the point? Oicumayberight (talk) 21:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree with Rob, Smokey Joe and Oicumayberight. Disambiguation pages originated to overcome a technical limitation of the Mediawiki software, but they are right now used by the community as micro-portals that link to the entry points of the major topics described - that means including articles even if they don't adhere to a strict interpretation of ambiguous title. If the guideline isn't describing this current practice, the guideline is wrong and should be amended accordingly. Diego (talk) 21:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
    • It's a matter of basic mathematics. If two thirds of users are looking for a particular meaning, then having that answer at the undisambiguated title with a hatnote reduces by half the number of clicks users must make on average to find what they want. If one meaning is the target of half of the traffic, and there is a second meaning that is the target of, say, a third of the traffic, then having the option of going either to the second choice or to a disambiguation page for third choices has the same effect, because no further searching is required to find the second option presented in the hatnote (as with Apple). This being the case, there is no reason to ever have a disambiguation page for a term with only two or three meanings, if one of those meanings can be identified as the likely target of over 50% of the searches; and there is no reason to have a disambiguation page at the base page name if one meaning can be identified as the likely target of over 50% of the searches, and another meaning can be identified as the likely target of over 25% of the searches. Whatever else you may think about disambiguation pages, people will usually get what they are seeking the fastest if those principles are followed. bd2412 T 23:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Right now the community uses the disambiguation pages as they are right now described by the guidelines as micro-portals, right up until the pages described by the guidelines no longer suit their micro-portal needs, at which point the community creates set indexes or list articles or broad concept articles or... and so maximizing the utility of the encyclopedia, providing information to those who seek it without sacrificing navigational efficiency for those seeking other information; so the guidelines are currently describing the current practice. The guidelines do not put form over function; they put primary function (navigation) over coincidental function (micro-portal). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Even if the guideline is not putting form over function, interpretation and bot-like application of the guide is what's putting form over function. Better wording could fix that. Simply stating goals and easy examples aren't enough to make it accurately guide, especially in the hands of the biased, even if the intent is clear. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Your bot-like rants on the talk pages are less useful. The equation is not "consistency of application rules I happen to disagree with = bot-like". -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
          • When use of links based on adjectives (not the nouns that are in the example of PTM) aren't considered case-by-case, that's bot-like. When there's multiple removals of links with little or no discussion other than WP:JUSTAPOLICY, that's bot-like. It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree or disagree. I can't disagree with what hasn't been discussed. Oicumayberight (talk) 21:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
            • Your use of "bot-like" is incorrect, however you want to rationalize it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
              • Okay then. No need to explain your criteria or rationale for labeling it "wrong." We should just take your word for it. If JHunterJ says it's "wrong," then it must be wrong. Got it!!!! Oicumayberight (talk) 22:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
                • On the other hand, when editors repeatedly explain to you exactly what is wrong and you ignore them, we're supposed to continue to put up with your rants. older ≠ wiser 22:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
                  • No rant. Just calling tactics to avoid discussion as I see it. When someone actually explains what is wrong instead of avoiding discussion or just pointing to policies that don't apply without subjective interpretation, there's no reason to rant, if you can call it a rant. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
                    • When you stop ignoring the explanations just because you disagree with them, it will look less rant-y. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
                      • Addressing and rebutting explanations is not "ignoring." You could agree to disagree or you could rebut my rebuttal. Don't expect me to just accept your ad hominem so called "explanations" as Gospel without question. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

3 (music)

3 (music) is a disambiguation page. That can't be right. bd2412 T 00:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Why not? Looks like a reasonable split from 3 (disambiguation). Diego (talk) 09:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Dab pages are not so split. WP:Incomplete disambiguation. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

PRIMARYTOPIC, wikilawyering and plain good old good sense: To run or not to run - that's the redirect question

When is a runner not a runner?

• 1. I have run into a spot of trouble that appears to be a running theme over here ... I was looking for "runner" (mechanical) and saw that although it appeared on a dismbiguagtion page, the page had been redirected to "running" (sport). I changed it back to a straight disambiguation page, as there were already two points on it that would take the readder to "running".
• 2. My change was reverted by an editor who is no stranger to this page, citing some "malplaced disambiguation" (whatever that means). The same editor has just reverted it for the third time. Same editor suggests I request a move. It is rich that he reverts willy-nilly, but I must request a move. I can't find that policy page that explains that some are more equal than others.
• 3. Does it makes sense that to get to "runner", I have to first be taken to "running", to then switch back to "runner", whereas running is already a direct entry and there are two points at which the reader can hop from "runner" to "running"? Who would go looking for "runner" (athlete) in the first place? Would one go looking for "boxer" or "boxing"? "high jumper" or "high jumping"? "tennis player" or "tennis"? The fact that the pages named after the practitioner have bee redirected to the pages named after the sporting activity already says it all. The mere fact of making "runner" point to "running" is corroboration of the fact that we presume readers will mostly look up the activity and not the practitioner - ie that the majority of readers will go to "running" and not "runner" if they are looking for "runner" in the context of the sport. It is like consulting a dictionary - you don't look up "disgusted" or "annoyed", you look up "disgust" or "annoy/ annoyance" - you look up the main term, which - as far as the sport is concerned - is "running". But for other instances, "runner" is the main term. So what we are doing is sacrificing a base name disambiguation page for the sake of the minority of users who go to "runner" when they actually wanted to go to "running" .... It is like going to the dictionary, looking up "screw" (fastener ) and finding that it tells you to consult "sexual intercourse", then at "sexual intercourse" to read that "screw" may also refer to a metal fastener with a helical ridge. Back and forth, and back and forth and back .....
• Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:00, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

See WP:MALPLACED -- Bkonrad linked to it in the edit summary. Yes, you must request the move, because you want to change the assumed existing consensus of the primary topic of "runner" being "one who engages in running". (See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the explanation of why some pages are more equal than others.) There is already a hatnote on running that would take the reader to the disambiguation page. Yes, it makes sense that if you are looking for a non-primary topic for a title that has a primary topic, you have to land at the primary topic article, click through the hatnote to the disambiguation page, and then click through to the non-primary topic article. Point 3 is the kind of thing you'd include in your discussion for the WP:RM, if you decide to request it. No back and forth is needed. -- JHunterJ 11:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

JHunterJ (you forgot to sign). You say no back and forth? What do you call (quoting from your comment:

• 1. There is already a hatnote on running that would take the reader to the disambiguation page.
• 2. for a title that has a primary topic, you have to land at the primary topic article,
• 3. click through the hatnote to the disambiguation page,
• 4. and then click through to the non-primary topic article.

I get it - "no back and forth". Got it!

And please don't rush to reply before taking the time to understand what you are reading - I never said anything about any pages being more equal than others. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

There's no back and forth in that sequence, only "forward". You said "I can't find that policy page that explains that some are more equal than others." Feel free to take your time before replying to understand what you've already written. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, JHunterJ - reading is obviously NOT your strong card, so let me help you: "Same editor suggests I request a move. It is rich that he reverts willy-nilly, but I must request a move. I can't find that policy page that explains that some are more equal than others." It OBVIOUSLY refers to editors, not pages, as you interpreted here: "See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the explanation of why some pages are more equal than others". Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for clarifying what you wrote above, since writing for clarity is obviously NOT your strong suit. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'd like to know where they are getting the statistics that proves a primary topic is the intended usage often enough for it to be considered a primary topic. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

  It's never "proven"; we're not wikilawyering. Usage stats are available through the tool linked at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, however, and then those are (hopefully) considered by the editors forming consensus. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Sounds like you are saying that it's a matter of case-by-case judgement that may require article talk page discussion and not a simple matter of pointing to a policy.. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
    • It sounds like what I've been saying all along: get consensus. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
      • I guess as long as we both know that a policy ≠ consensus for an article edit or revert, we are in agreement. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • (ec2) Yea, those number get cut and diced to support a position. I believe that there is more then one case where the 'primary' article was selected with under 50% of the page views. Then you have the issue of which page view to consider. That is like the wild, wild west with no rules at all! Page views are only one part of the story. What may be more important is when editors simply refuse to even look at how a topic is used by the press and simply decide what is meant even if there are actual facts that show something very different. My opinion is that page links are best used to show that something is not the primary topic. That is usually safe. Another metric is inbound links which we tend to ignore. The problem with counting those links is they can also provide false information. Take the case of SFO airport. It is not in SF, but at least one city south in a different county. However every airline that flies in lists the destination, by convention, as SF. Likewise for reference purposes, at least in the US, when something happens, mileage and direction are generally given from the legal definition of the center of the major city in the area. Both of these facts tend to over inflate the number of links to a specific city article. People also like to ignore the work done to disambiguate inbound links to a topic. If a large number of inbound links are to the wrong page, there is something wrong with the article at the main name space. But a lot of editors simply don't care about this. Probably because if the topic is truly ambiguous it requires work to figure out what links are correct and which are not. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Greetings! Let me see if I can help here. Of course, some terms have many meanings, and some meanings have many terms that refer to them. A person looking up Barack Obama may merely type Obama, or may type his full name, Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.. The fact that multiple routes lead to the same end does not suggest that the person who merely types Obama was really looking for some different meaning of term, even if one exists (or if many exist. For each term with multiple meanings, we have to determine whether there is a primary topic, or whether there is no primary topic. Usually the primary topic is what we expect people to be looking for most of the time when they type in that term. That's why Running is where it is, despite there being other meanings of "Running". There would be no point in having separate articles on "running" (speedy bipedal locomotion) and "runner" (the person who engages in running), so one title points to the other. This doesn't mean that "runner" in the sense of the person who runs is not the primary topic of "runner". There just needs to be one title to which the other redirects. Compare skier, bicyclist, entertainer. Whether a term is primary is determined by its popular use, but also by historically important meanings of a term, which is why Apple is about a fruit and Avatar is about a Hindu religious figure. There have been "runners" for as long as animals have had legs. It therefore seems sensible that both in terms of what people expect "runner" to mean, and in terms of the historical importance of the term, that the primary topic would coincide with running. bd2412 T 20:08, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Standby Rui Gabriel Correia. I can see that Runner (disambiguation) has yet to get the abrasive clean up job that some other disambiguation pages have gotten. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Actually, everything on that page seems fine to me, as every line describes something commonly called a "runner" in reliable sources, without the need for additional terms to qualify it as a "something runner" or a "runner something". bd2412 T 21:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't see what you are referring to as "reliable sources." All I see is links and descriptions as to why they are on the disambiguation page. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
      • The sources are where the sources always go, in the articles themselves. bd2412 T 23:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Fair enough. Oicumayberight (talk) 00:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
• OK, let's look at another case. A case can be made that the article currently at Las Vegas Valley is the primary use of 'Las Vegas'. By the numbers, sightly less then 95% of the hotel rooms and gaming income does not come from the city but from the other communities in the valley. This entire area is the destination known as 'Las Vegas'. Since 85%, maybe more of the hotel rooms and gaming income are in unincorporated areas everything gets lumped in under the general destination of Las Vegas. Visitors and locals tend to ignore and not care about the differences. But since there is a city with that name, many editors believe that it has to be the primary topic. So what is the primary topic? Where people who go to 'Las Vegas' actually go or when they may think that they go? And which answer is more encyclopedic? Vegaswikian (talk) 20:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Partial title matches - talk section?

The WP:PTM section has a dispute tag pointing to the talk section "Appropriate use," but I cannot find any such section on this current talk page or its most recent archive. Is the dispute still active? Which current talk section, if any, is most relevant? --SoledadKabocha (talk) 19:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I removed the tag. It's related to Oicumayberight's objections in multiple sections above, but there's no change in the consensus. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The section it's most related to is the section titled "Subjective CREEP". And it's still under dispute. I'm not convince that anyone has address the subjectivity, especially in regard to adjectives/adverbs in the language and special consideration when disambiguating adjectives. Oicumayberight (talk) 21:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion at Talk:America re-opened

In case anyone is interested, discussion for a proposal to move the disambiguation page at America to America (disambiguation) and change America to redirect to the United States has been re-opened. An experiment using specially constructed redirects on the dab page was agreed upon, but after claims were made of the stats being manipulated, some participants are suggesting the traffic stats be ignored. older ≠ wiser 04:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Primary topics - acronyms

(moved from Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Disambiguation to unify discussion with Dicklyon's proposed WP:NOTFORNERDS change to PRIMARYTOPIC with Talk:DNS#NOTFORNERDS)

For acronyms, would it be useful if WP:PRIMARYTOPIC mentioned how it is contrasts with WP:ACRONYMTITLE which some editors are explicitly conflating, others seemingly conflating in the discussion? Widefox; talk 08:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

How does it contrast with WP:ACRONYMTITLE? That is, what would we change or add in WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Clarify...WP:ACRONYMTITLE talks about "To determine the prominence of the abbreviation over the full name, " and to check abbreviations.com. My hunch is the awareness of those may be distorting the PRIMARYTOPIC debate which should be focussed on likelihood and longevity. As to what to add, maybe something along the lines of "In contrast to WP:ACRONYMTITLE, the selection of an acronym as a primary topic is unrelated to usage of the full title versus the acronym, and solely about in comparison with the other ambiguous terms." That is one thing I'm thinking, but it may need some work so rather than contrast, maybe unite would be better, a suggestion. Widefox; talk 12:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I like that. In general, not just with acronyms, the article titling guidelines are about "Here's a topic. What title should it have?" While disambiguation asks "Here's a title. What topic should it have?" A topic article always has to have a title, but a title doesn't always have to have a (primary) topic. It doesn't matter if the Title1's topic should be titled "Title2" -- that just means we redirect Title1 to Title2. If Topic1's title should have Topic2 (the primary topic for the title is Topic2), then Topic1 needs a qualifier appeneded to the title. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:59, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

There's separate issues going on coming out of the DNS primary topic discussion (Domain Name System), I will try to summise:

1. (Strong candidate for) most likely article is technical (arguably obscure or nerdy)
2. Usage of acronym (like any other alternative name), and in particular primary topic redirects
3. Countering systemic bias - how do we factor that in? e.g. WP:NOTFORNERDS is to counter the IT/technical/obscure bias
4. Readers come to articles through Google "DNS": #1 is Domain Name System which didn't have a hatnote as there was no DNS redirect to it, and I guess others didn't consider this (as it wasn't a primary topic)
5. article popularity may not be correlated with acronym popularity (or any alternative title) - having stats on clickthroughs from DABs would simply tell us (http referer or server logs for example) - this may be overkill but would focus on DAB usage (e.g. America experiment)
6. WP:ACRONYMTITLE and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC are not the same thing, not in conflict, and can both be satisfied in a 1:n fashion
7. Awareness of the acronym (or alternative title) is a deciding factor in WP:ACRONYMTITLE, but arguably isn't in WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (per 6)
8. discussions involving primary topic selection are getting sidetracked with confusion over article titling, when no articles are getting renamed anyhow WP:PRIMARYTOPIC =/= WP:ACRONYMTITLE

1, 3 and 4 together: If we counter systemic bias by biasing so strongly against current usage for technical terms, we cut our nose off to spite our face when access via routes like Google give readers the article in one click anyhow, not via a DAB and we didn't have a hatnote for the other DNS uses. There must be a balance for each case. I'm not sure how the DAB is the right place to counter systemic bias of the readership (unless a weak or pathological example)...I don't know.

Lots aren't known to the wider readership, but neither are lots of non-IT acronyms, and WP is fully of nerdy topics/acronyms so a WP:WARONNERDY seems counterproductive IMHO. Examples of primary topic redirects (acronyms):

• technical
  • HP (disambiguation) - well known, although also a sauce in the UK, and horsepower giving it a run
  • URL (disambiguation)
  • DHCP (disambiguation)
  • SDIF (disambiguation)
  • IETF (disambiguation)
  • ATX (disambiguation)
  • AIX (disambiguation)
  • QQ (disambiguation) - popular in China
  • PAL (disambiguation) - nerdy in some countries, possibly unknown in others
  • ATSC (disambiguation)
  • MP4 (disambiguation)
• RM Candidates
  • DNS
  • TCP (Weaker)
  • TLS (Weaker)
• US centric
  • IRS (disambiguation) - US tax
  • NSA (disambiguation) - currently well known
  • FBI (disambiguation) - well known
  • CIA (disambiguation) - well known
  • USMC (disambiguation) - US military
  • SAT (disambiguation)
  • EPA (disambiguation)
• other
  • CND (disambiguation) - UK/nuclear nerdy
  • RAF (disambiguation) - UK/military nerdy
  • GRU (disambiguation) - Russian nerdy - primary might need looking at - marked for cleanup
  • KERIS (disambiguation) - could be moved to Keris (disambiguation)
  • UFO (disambiguation) - widely known if nerdy
  • UAE (disambiguation) - widely known?
  • AWOL (disambiguation) - might be general language
  • EDTA (disambiguation) - Chemistry
  • V6 (disambiguation) - engine nerds
  • V8 (disambiguation) - engine nerds
  • V10 (disambiguation) - engine nerds
• likely consensus on these ones
  • G8 (disambiguation)
  • G7 (disambiguation) (maybe)
  • H2O (disambiguation) (1st primary redirect water) - chemistry
    • HOH (disambiguation) redir->lowercase DAB (2nd primary redirect water) - arguably too obscure
    • Hoh (disambiguation) (primary redirect Hoh Indian Tribe of the Hoh Indian Reservation)
  • EU (disambiguation) - well known in EU
  • EEC (disambiguation) (maybe)
  • UK (disambiguation) - no doubt about that one
  • CD (disambiguation) - tech
• non-redirects but worth a nerdy mention
  • O14 (disambiguation)

...etc...there's probably hundreds or thousands Widefox; talk 15:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

If it helps, there is a Category:Lists of TLAs, from which you can see lists of all three letter acronyms in the encyclopedia. You can see which ones are red links, and with the right skin you can see which ones are disambiguation pages (which is most of them), and which ones are articles or redirects. As a general matter, I prefer to have disambiguation pages at such titles unless there is a clear primary topic, and no other topics reasonably vying for primary topic status. bd2412 T 16:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec from DNS)...Anyone Googling DNS finds the page anyway, and never sees the DAB, the move/discussion is somewhat moot. There was no hatnote until now at the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE to discover the other DNSs. What some folk are arguing for, is that WP:PRIMARYUSAGE and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should be different. Let them make their case. Primaryusage topics, and "Google primarytopics" at least need a hatnote to cover that route. This is important and useful to prevent walled gardens (primarytopics get redirect hatnotes anyhow). I think we're trying to be too posh and dropping the ball. It's just a DAB, how exactly inconveniencing 97% of current readers help / steer / inform / correct systemic bias needs to be justified more that NOTFORNERDS. WP is for the readership of WP, including nerds - any flavour of nerd is welcome. There's a spectrum of primary topic redirect acronyms, at one end, I'm sure nobody is arguing for removing the likes of UK or UN, but theres lots at the generally unknown end DHCP and TLS TCP. Widefox; talk 00:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

What is the primary topic for "Oprah Winfrey"?

It seems obvious to me that the primary topic for "Oprah Winfrey" is the topic of the article at Oprah Winfrey. The primary topic for "Whyalla" is the topic of Whyalla. The primary topic of Oprah is also the topic of Oprah Winfrey, so Oprah redirects to Oprah Winfrey.

This notion seems so obvious to me it seems like it should not have to be said. Others too. For example, today, sroc (talk · contribs) implied it was obvious in this edit at WP:PLACE, where he simplified:

City or Town alone is "acceptable if the name is unique, or if the place-name is the primary topic for that name"

to say:

"the name of a city or town may be used alone if the place is the primary topic for that name "

He clarified on the talk page that he thinks "unique" is redundant ("if it's unique, it will be the primary topic") .

But, as I've run into objections to this notion in the past, for clarity I thought we should modify WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to say this explicitly. But when tried to do this in the past , by adding the following text to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

When a word, name or phrase refers to only one topic on Misplaced Pages, then that topic is the unique use, and so also the primary topic for that term.

It was reverted by SmokeyJoe (talk · contribs) for reasoning I cannot comprehend ("No. A dictionary word, or swear word, or neologism, and other things may make a uniqui topic an inappropriate title").

I can't comprehend this because I don't know how a topic can be made into a title. A topic is the subject of an article - which can have many names, but none of the names is the topic. For example, the topic of Oprah Winfrey is not "Oprah Winfrey", but the biography of the celebrity known as Oprah Winfrey. A topic is a concept that is the subject of the article, and the primary topic for a given term is the topic most likely to be sought by someone searching with that term. If that term has only one topic associated with it, isn't it obviously the primary topic?

Anyway, that was a few months ago and I didn't pursue Smokey's objection.

But prompted by sroc's edit today at WP:PLACE, I tried again by adding the following statement to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

Whenever a word, name or phrase is used to refer to only one topic on Misplaced Pages, that topic is the primary topic for that term. This is the topic to which the term should lead, serving as the title of (or a redirect to) the relevant article.

Pretty obvious, right? Yet it too was reverted, this time by Dicklyon (talk · contribs) , with the rather unhelpful edit summary, "I don't think we're ready to commit to that extreme case."

Extreme case? Recognizing that the primary topic of "Whyalla" is the topic of Whyalla is extreme?

What am I missing? --B2C 00:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The problem that I see with "Whenever a word, name or phrase is used to refer to only one topic on Misplaced Pages, that topic is the primary topic for that term", is that it expands the definition of a primary topic. It is pretty hard to imagine anything not being a primary topic that only occurs in one place, though. Apteva (talk) 01:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, we can certainly imagine a term that has only one use on Misplaced Pages. I gave three examples above. Oprah Winfrey, Oprah and Whyalla. Here are a few more: United States of America (a redirect to United States that has no other uses), Anarcho-syndicalism (title of article about unique use of "Anarcho-syndicalism"), Ubristes (title of article about the genus Ubristes).

And we can all ask the question: in such cases is the topic of these articles the primary topic for each of these terms with unique uses on WP?

What's the answer? No, because it expands the definition of primary topic? Does it? You would argue that "Oprah" has no primary topic? Because it has only one use? Really?

People like sroc edit policy pages assuming the definition already encompasses such terms.

I think it can only help to clarify it one way or another. It's just a definition. We should be clear on whether we have to say "or is the unique use of the term", or whether that's already implied by saying WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. No? --B2C 01:21, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Primary topic only has significance when there is more than one topic that might have the same title. When a title is unique, there is no question of primary topic. Sroc's edit introduced imprecision into the other guideline. older ≠ wiser 02:09, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Right, I think I follow that. If a particular title has only one topic, there is no primary topic per se and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is irrelevant. Ergo, strictly speaking, deleting "unique" from "unique, or… the primary topic" excludes cases where the name is unique and there are no other uses (hence no primary topic). I suppose my edit was also intended to reflect cases where the name might be unique amongst places but there are other uses (besides places) and hence a question arises whether the place is the primary topic deserving of an undisambiguated title; being "unique" as a place name is not enough. Anyway, I thought my edit made it clear enough that this would apply where the place name was truly unique (not used for anything else), but I have no objection to restoring the "unique" if its omission causes a fuss. —sroc 💬 03:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Please be more careful

Could B2C avoid putting his own, untested views into the guideline, please? It's now been reverted, I notice. Good. Tony (talk) 03:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

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