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the word "cosmetic" is false and biased.

Read this older discussion, if you wish, or jump directly to the newer discussion ("Is inclusion of the word 'cosmetic' in the Criteria section appropriate?") below to participate. Lightbreather (talk) 01:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The features listed in the assault weapons ban were not solely cosmetic. All of them served utilitarian functions which make weapons more dangerous, or better suited to unlawful purposes.

1) Folding and telescopic stocks make weapons better suited to unlawful purposes by making them more concealable. 2) Pistol grips in conjunction with folding or telescopic stocks, or in place of stocks altogether, make it easier to use more concealable weapons either with folding or telescopic stocks, or in place of stocks altogether. 3) Bayonet mounts make weapons more dangerous by increasing their utility as melee weapons. 4) Flash suppressors make weapons better suited to unlawful purposes by making it easier to stay hidden when firing them. 5) Grenade launchers make weapons more dangerous by enabling the accurate use of small explosive devices at long range.

The word "cosmetic" is inaccurate, and worse, biased in this context. It implies that Congress cynically targeted features for show, rather than function. That may be. But Misplaced Pages should not take that editorial position.

Whomever wrote that screed obviously knows very little about firearms.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:31, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The best way to resolve this dispute is with a "he said/she said" approach. A sentence should include the reason Congress gave for targeting denominated features. And another sentence should include to gun advocate's argument that features like grenade launchers are purely cosmetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.145.68 (talk) 19:09, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Cosmetic is the term from the cited reference. Do you have a reference that has a different view? Yaf (talk) 19:39, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

For once I agree with Yaf. Folks from both "sides" have called it that. North8000 (talk) 20:21, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that its false and biased but I will agree that it is unnessesary. Simply saying features is enough without the adjective cosmetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.242.165.106 (talk • contribs) 05:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Yaf and North8000. The reference specifically says "cosmetic". As a point of fact, the basic functionality of a semi-automatic rifle is the same with or without pistol grips, flash hider, etc. They look different, they look "military". That difference is cosmetic. There is no bias in the article continuing to recognize that. Do you have any RS that suggests otherwise? Capitalismojo (talk) 21:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

There's a similar discussion taking place at Talk:Assault weapon#Cosmetic features. — Mudwater 03:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Obviously the user who put this section on here was none other than the wicked witch herself. They are cosmetic and prove to have no effect on the firearms "power". And criminals do not exclusively use "assault weapons" because We The People use them as well against criminals. I have them but does that make me a criminal? I'm not shooting little kids or robbing banks so this topic is invalid and unprofessional by a liberal commie who just want to rule the world with his/her own army of mongols against a disarmed populace.-Boba fett 32 (talk) 21:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Also does it make soldiers criminal in using these types of weapons? It may vary depending on the mission but why should we let soldiers armed with grenade launchers and drones and nuclear bombs? Why do they need M-16 rifles if it's just being used for unlawful purposes? Reality check, it's not a bill of needs it's a Bill Of Rights. Our founding fathers wanted citizens to have arms that are nearly and evenly matched with the standing military and that's a fact.-Boba fett 32 (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

"Cosmetic" is not false and biased. It is factually accurate.

The first line in the rebuttal is assuming that the utilitarian functions of the described items are for illicit purposes. This is patently incorrect.

"1) Folding and telescopic stocks make weapons better suited to unlawful purposes by making them more concealable."

Source?

Incorrect. The purpose is to allow adjustments to comfortably fit the user as most stocks are one fixed size. Is every shooter the same build? No. If the sole purpose of these type of stocks was "making them more concealable", then why do they make telescopic stocks for pistols? They at least double the size of a pistol that had one. These types of stocks are commonplace among sport/competition shooters for the same reason. The previous argument doesn't even make sense.

"2) Pistol grips in conjunction with folding or telescopic stocks, or in place of stocks altogether, make it easier to use more concealable weapons either with folding or telescopic stocks, or in place of stocks altogether."

Source?

Again, couldn't be farther from the truth. The purpose of the pistol grip is differing ergonomics. A pistol grip in conjunction with a fold/telescopic stock does not make it more concealable. It makes the firearm larger as the pistol grip extrudes from the lower of the rifle (bigger, less concealable), whereas normal (non-telescopic/folding stocks) are more in parallel with the body of the rifle, and smaller.

"3) Bayonet mounts make weapons more dangerous by increasing their utility as melee weapons."

Source?

A bayonet mount does not increase its utility as a melee weapon. A bayonet does, but a mount does not. Have you ever heard of a melee spree from a mounted bayonet on an AR-15 anyways?

"4) Flash suppressors make weapons better suited to unlawful purposes by making it easier to stay hidden when firing them."

Source?

Apparently, everything on a rifle is made for unlawful purposes. If such was the case, military and police must have a lot of unlawful activities going on as they utilize a lot of these. Is a flash suppressor necessary? No. Is a car that can go over 100mph? No. Luxury item, hardly something to actually worry about. If you have ever fired a rifle with a flash suppressor, you would know that it does not eradicate a flash. Also, most shootings are not a sniper in the woods. Someone who is skilled enough to shoot that far that a flash suppressor would be effective, the flash would not be visible anyways.

"5) Grenade launchers make weapons more dangerous by enabling the accurate use of small explosive devices at long range."

True.

However, this is biased. These are not available to the civilian populace to begin with, thus redundant to put in the bill in the first place. This is merely used to help distract a reader by creating fear in a non-existent problem.

It is not editorial, and it is in fact, true. The fact that they targeted these specific features, proves its aim at cosmetics. If you want to get really picky, ergonomics would be a better word to use, over cosmetics.

Lostincynicism (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Removal of dispute headers on the article page.

The two dispute headers on the article page have been in place for a significant period of time in relation to the below above listed complaint. This complaint has been discussed at length in this talk page. The general public sees the dispute headers on the article and calls into question the veracity of the information provided in the article because of those headers. This talk page has shown the substantive issue of whether the term "cosmetic" has been resolved. Whether or not the term is biased, the use of the term is indeed one of historical fact and documented use. The term "cosmetic" was not one created by wiki users or by any statistically insignificant minority, but the majority of all parties involved. Therefore it does a disservice to the public at large to leave the dispute headers in place on the article page, as there is indeed no need to keep them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.96.4.205 (talk) 02:52, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Is inclusion of the word "cosmetic" in the Criteria section appropriate?

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Should the "Criteria of an assault weapon" section contain the words "cosmetic"? Lightbreather (talk) 01:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Survey - For threaded discussion, see below

• Oppose, the word "cosmetic" is inappropriate in the Criteria section. Lightbreather (talk) 01:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Misplaced Pages is built on sourced and cited material. "Appropriate" is a first person value judgement, not supported by the sources cited. Anastrophe (talk) 03:03, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. It is exactly what it is. --Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:26, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. If both sides of the debate say it's cosmetic, there's no reason we shouldn't. We can't make things up that contradict our sources. Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:35, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support There are multiple RS describing it as cosmetic. We should stick with the reliable sources. Capitalismojo (talk) 12:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
• Neutral, but There must be a better word to use that is still grammatically correct. Granted, the use of the word cosmetic IMO does connote the 'superficial' nature of the design elements. The article should be devoting space to explaining the problem with the legislation, there is ample press covereage to cite in this respect.

Threaded discussion

• Another user says the limited discussion from earlier in 2013 (top of this talk), plus two citations in the article, are sufficient to prove that the word "cosmetic" is appropriate in the "Criteria of an assault weapon" section of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban page. I agree the word may be appropriate to use in other sections of the page, but not the Criteria section. The word "cosmetic" appeared nowhere in the AWB, and there is not a consensus among concerned parties about the essential qualities of these features. In 2004, upon expiration of the AWB, the NRA Institute for Legislative responded by calling the features "cosmetic," but the NRA-ILA is hardly a neutral party in the discussion. At the same time, the Violence Policy Center issued a press release that said, in part, "Soon after its passage in 1994, the gun industry made a mockery of the federal assault weapons ban, manufacturing 'post-ban' assault weapons with only slight, cosmetic differences from their banned counterparts." Again, the VPC is not a neutral party, and, at any rate, its statement does not say that the banned features were cosmetic. Lightbreather (talk) 01:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The fact that manufacturers were able to build guns *in compliance with the law* by altering cosmetic features of the guns, means that cosmetic features were what were banned. Both pro-gun-rights and pro-gun-control organizations acknowledged that the ban was on cosmetic features, not functional features. If that isn't consensus on the distinction, I don't know what is. Anastrophe (talk) 03:33, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources refer to "cosmetic". This discussion seems to be beating a dead horse. Capitalismojo (talk) 12:11, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Capitalismojo, this is not beating a dead horse. Pushing to restore the word "cosmetic" to the Criteria section of the AWB talk was jumping the gun. Let's look at your sources, one at a time. #1 The Salon.com article by Alex Seitz-Wald titled "Don't mourn the assault weapon's ban impending demise." The word "cosmetic" appears twice on that article page. First, in the subtitle, which Seitz-Wald very likely did not write, and in any case was poor editing, as "cosmetic" there modifies "assault weapons ban" in the title. Our Misplaced Pages article does not say that the ban was cosmetic. "Cosmetic" appears next (and last) in the sixth paragraph, where Alex Seitz-Wald says he "largely" agrees with the NRA. However "largely" is not the same as "completely." Seitz-Wald also quotes Chris Koper's 2004 report to the U.S. Department of Justice. The word "cosmetic" appears one time in that 114-page document: in the first paragraph of section 2.4.2. "Although the law bans 'copies or duplicates' of the named gun makes and models, federal authorities have emphasized exact copies. Relatively cosmetic changes, such as removing a flash hider or bayonet mount, are sufficient to transform a banned weapon into a legal substitute, and a number of manufacturers now produce modified, legal versions of some of the banned guns..." No English teacher or legal analyst would say that Koper meant that flash hiders or bayonet mounts are cosmetic features, but simply that removing them from the banned weapons was sufficient to make them legal. Legal and scholarly language is very precise. To say that Koper meant anything more than exactly what he said in that statement is a leap by the reader. Therefore, this citation does not prove that the features listed in the AWB were cosmetic features. Lightbreather (talk) 20:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is a nonsensical reading. Koper states: "Relatively cosmetic changes, such as removing a flash hider or bayonet mount, are sufficient to transform a banned weapon into a legal substitute,". In what sense other than the features being cosmetic, can you read his statement as *not* supportive that the features removed are cosmetic? If removing a cosmetic feature renders the weapon compliant with the law, then it means that the law banned cosmetic features, not functional features. If Koper had meant to suggest that *non* cosmetic - functional - changes rendered guns legal, he would have said so. Please, provide an english language example, framed the same as Kopel's, that contradicts this unstrained reading. Anastrophe (talk) 20:44, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, you suggest that a reading of two sources that refer to cosmetic changes is not convincing, but you ignore the three other sources Capitalismojo provided. Perhaps it will simplify things if I add to the article the additional three sources that corroborate the plain english understanding of this matter. Anastrophe (talk) 20:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

If you will re-read my reply to Capitalismojo, you will see that I intend to address each citation separately (for clarity). Lightbreather (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Capitalismojo: Continuing to look at your sources, one at a time. #2 The reason.com article by Jacob Sullum titled "What's an Assault Weapon?" The statement Sullum makes is, "The distinguishing characteristics of 'assault weapons' are mainly cosmetic and have little or no functional significance in the context of mass shootings or ordinary gun crimes." Assuming you are claiming that "distinguishing characteristics" is absolutely interchageable with the term "features" (used in the law), "mainly" is not the same as "totally." Also, Sullum's bias is also obvious in his ironic usage of quotation marks around his every reference to assault weapons. This does not support that the features described in the AWB were cosmetic, but that Sullum believes they were. Lightbreather (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

That a reliable source believes something or has a bias does not invalidate that source in any manner whatsoever. Misplaced Pages's foundation is reliable sources, not editor's opinions as to what the reliable sources do or do not believe. That said, I would be agreeable to modifying the 'Criteria' section to say "largely cosmetic", rather than 'cosmetic' full stop. Worth noting that there's nothing ironic about using quotation marks around the politically created word "assault weapon", which definition of same cannot be nailed down in any empirical manner - which rather speaks to the very problems with the "assault weapons" that are at issue, to wit, that most - if not all - criteria that politicians have used in attempting to define their created term, have nothing to do with function, but rather appearance. Anastrophe (talk) 22:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Capitalismojo: Continuing to look at your sources, one at a time. #3 The Daily Beast article by Megan McArdle titled "Just Say No to Dumb Gun Laws." McArdle said that "long guns aren't used in the majority of gun crimes, and 'assault weapon' is a largely cosmetic rather than functional description." She did not say that assault weapons' features - some or all - are cosmetic. And again, modifiers like "largely," "mainly," "mostly," and "primarily" have meaning; you can't just ignore them. Lightbreather (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Capitalismojo: Continuing to look at your sources, one at a time. #4 Jordy Yager's piece for The Hill, "The problem with 'assault weapons'" - Yager wrote "Gun companies quickly realized they could stay within the law and continue to make rifles with high-capacity magazine clips if they steered away from the cosmetic features mentioned in the law." If you unpack this statement, it is clear that only some of the features of assault weapons might be called "cosmetic." (Though let's reiterate that the word "cosmetic" appears no-where in the law. It only started to be used in discussions about the law re: some features.) Lightbreather (talk) 23:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Capitalismojo: And finally, looking at your five sources, one at a time. #5 Michael A. Memoli's story in the Los Angeles Times, "Assault weapons ban to be dropped from Senate gun bill'" - Memoli wrote "Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas), who opposes stricter gun control, said he was not surprised Reid would drop the assault weapons ban, saying it was 'primarily focused on cosmetics, not on function.'" Again, modifiers like "primarily" cannot be ignored. Lightbreather (talk) 23:21, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

So to sum up, all of my refs use "cosmetic", all are reliable sourced, and you think the qualifying terms "mainly" or "primarily" are important and should be used in front of "cosmetic"? Capitalismojo (talk) 23:26, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Going a little deeper, actually none of Lightbreather's analyses have any probative value to the actual Rfc above. The Rfc above asks, only, "Is inclusion of the word "cosmetic" in the Criteria section appropriate". It does not ask "Is inclusion of the word "cosmetic" without any qualifiers, appropriate to the criteria section", which is a wholley different question. A vote has been tendered on the actual Rfc question, and seems to support that use of the word "cosmetic" is appropriate. If user Lightbreather wishes to create a new Rfc specific to the user's apparent actual issue with the wording, I would not be opposed to modifying it to "largely cosmetic", even though a strict reading of the section in question shows that is it already qualified: " because they possess a minimum set of cosmetic features from the following list of features:" Anastrophe (talk) 23:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

To finalize my argument here for why the features in the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 should not be lumped together as "cosmetic"

There were 15 features included in the AWB 1994 definition of an assault weapon:

01. Semi-automatic (rifle, pistol, or shotgun) 02. Ability to accept detachable magazines (on a rifle) 03. Folding or telescoping stock (on a rifle or shotgun) 04. Pistol grip (on a rifle or shotgun) 05. Bayonet mount (on a rifle) 06. Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one (on a rifle) 07. Grenade launcher (on a rifle) 08. Detachable magazine (on a pistol) 09. Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip (on a pistol) 10. Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor (on a pistol) 11. Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold (on a pistol) 12. Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more (on a pistol) 13. A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm (on a pistol) 14. Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds (on a shotgun) 15. Detachable magazine (on a shotgun).

Per the Violence Policy Center publication Bullet Hoses, the three "most significant assault weapon functional design features" (in addition to the primary one, being semi-automatic) are:

• Ability to accept a high-capacity ammunition magazine
• Rear pistol or thumb-hole grip
• Forward grip or barrel shroud.

Also per the VPC, there are four "bells and whistles" features (or "cosmetic") that "have nothing to do with why assault weapons are so deadly." They are:

• Bayonet mount
• Grenade launcher
• Silencer
• Flash suppressor.

Therefore, of the 15 features included in AWB 1994, three were explicitly deemed significant, four were deemed cosmetic, and the rest are open to debate.

At this point, the vote is one for taking "cosmetic" out of the Criteria section, four for keeping it in, and one neutral. The discussion - over what, 24 hours? - has included three voices. That is hardly exhaustive. We are all in agreement that the features are features. I propose that the word "cosmetic" be removed from the "Criteria of an assault weapon" section, and added to a section about debate surrounding the ban. If that is not agreeable, I will escalate the issue to the next level. Lightbreather (talk) 00:25, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

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