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Australia: Sports C‑class Mid‑importance

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Mattdocbrown's obsession with proving Rugby League to be the best

Look, liking a sport is great. Trying to prove that it's better than another with trivial observations only makes it look trivial itself.

The attempt to score points with attendance at SOE is misguided. DO read the reference carefully. It says "The 2010...State of Origin series was the most viewed ever across the five capital cities." That does NOT compare SOE with any other event. It compares it with other SOEs. I had already mentioned in my Edit summary that you had this wrong, but you kept adding it. Did you not think to look? I did!

Because you kept re-adding that crap, I couldn't be bothered checking all your other stuff. Much of it really is trivial. If equivalent content was added for every other code we would have the biggest load of rubbish in Misplaced Pages.

From now on I recommend that you discuss your proposed changes here before adding. That's how things are meant to work. HiLo48 (talk) 05:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

What is SOE?--Jeff79 (talk) 05:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. The NSW vs Qld State of Origin series. HiLo48 (talk) 05:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Nowhere do I claim rugby league is better than AFL. I've provided valid links to the 2010 ratings that include both regional and metropolitan ratings that list the 40 games that rated higher than 1 million and the 9.7 million who watched state of origin. It's as valid as listing the attendance figure or ratings for an AFL grand final. As for internationals, I find it interesting that you are happy to allow the Socceroos, Wallabies and even the International AFL rules teams to be listed, yet you deleted a valid reference to the Kangaroos. Clearly you have an anti-Rugby League obsession HiLo. You don't see me deleting information about AFL.Mattdocbrown —Preceding undated comment added 06:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC).

No. TV ratings for cherry picked events are NOT comparable with Grand Final attendances. And you're right, I did delete some stuff that may have been significant, but, as I already explained, it was buried among heaps of trivial rubbish that had never been discussed here before adding it. THAT'S the way to avoid upsetting people on WIkipedia. I am sure if I looked I could find all sorts of exciting ratings figures for various AFL events, but I don't think they're important. And they are meaningless without some sort of comparison. How significant is it for a game to rate higher than 1 million? Doesn't Home and Away do that every day? I get the impression that you see TV ratings as having major significance, but you will have to convince the rest of the world of that. HiLo48 (talk) 06:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC) HiLo48 (talk) 06:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

BROUGHT OVER FROM MY TALK PAGE AFTER FINALLY GETTING Mattdocbrown's ATTENTION:

What on earth are Oztam and RegionalTam? I'll bet 99% of readers don't know. IF it's significant, you MUST explain that significance in the article. HiLo48 (talk) 06:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

This event isn't cherry picked. It's a representative football series - just like International/Gaelic Rules AFL and International Union. Every code has these matches so it's comparable. Representative football is different to domestic club competition - even the AFL page lists it seperately. If a state match outrates an international, clearly it's of significance. As for explaining to you what Oztam and RegionalTam are, you're clearly admitting that you don't know how ratings are measured? Yet you still somehow KNOW it's wrong to automatically delete it. Clearly you're uninformed. The ratings section already has a link to explain what Oztam is. As for the comparable AFL ratings over 1,000,000 nationally, there have only been 10 AFL matches to achieve that this year. If you want to put that on the article as a further direct comparison, feel free. As to how significant is it for a game to rate higher than 1 million - the EXISTING article clearly states that Rugby league and Australian rules football directly compete for the largest overall Audience measurement and Media marketshare, PRIMARILY MEASURED IN TERMS OF TELEVISION RATINGS. In the context of the article, the fact that Rugby League has 73 of the top 100 pay TV matches and 40 of the 53 million+ rating free to air football games is significant. Would you like to add that to the article? Now that you're aware of this, I guess it's your choice if you want to omit this information in order to make the AFL appear better than what the truth is. I don't want to upset you, but just because you dislike the information doesn't mean it's not real.(Mattdocbrown (talk) 07:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

I'm happy for anyone to list an annual Australian representative football tournament that rates higher. (Mattdocbrown (talk) 07:18, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

Yep, you ARE trying to prove that League is better! And yes, I AM uninformed. TV ratings are a mystery to most people. I'm glad you understand it, but their significance needs to be explained with your claims, along with the comparisons, IN THE ARTICLE. I believe AFL TV rights are worth a lot more than League TV rights. Given your claims above, why would that be? HiLo48 (talk) 07:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

So when The Pope puts in AFL Grand Final outrates the NRL Grand Final, he's not trying to prove AFL is better? You seem to have no problem with him, yet you have a problem with rugby league. In no way did I say that Rugby League is better than AFL. If you want to ignore or delete the very real ratings that I've mentioned, it says more about yourself than it does about me. As for explaining how TV ratings work within the article, I can easily copy across the Oztam explanation. However most well informed people are aware of people-meters. The article already states that these ratings are important, yet you seem to not want to give specific numbers. As for TV rights, it has only been in the past 3 to 4 years that NRL ratings have start to match and surpass AFL ratings - well after the last TV deal was sign. The ratings for AFL in Melbourne are down 10% this year which were down 6% from the year before that, with Melbourne constituting the major core base of AFL ratings. I have links to this also if you'd like me to put it in the article. As for speculating why rights are worth more, perhaps it has something to do with Kerry Packer forcing his 7 & 10 rivals to pay through the roof as his last deathbed act. Who knows for sure? Both the AFL and NRL rights are in a massive tier above both Soccer and Union. Recent speculation by media analysts have estimated that the next rights deal will be much closer, depending on coverage areas, anti-siphoning changes and expansion teams. But as I've said - all of this is pure speculation - and doesn't belong in the article. Five years ago AFL had 16 one million national matches a year. As for why AFL ratings are in decline, I don't know fully, because the coverage has been the same for some time. Perhaps the same teams monopolosing the schedule may have something to do with it. Any thoughts as to why AFL ratings have declined? (Mattdocbrown (talk) 07:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

Fair comments on the ratings. As I said, I'm no expert. that's why I sought more information. You are good at explaining it here. Why not try to explain it in the article so you don't have to assume such a well informed readership? After all, it's a global encyclopaedia. But I'm still concerned about the State of Origin claim. I haven't read it cover to cover, but I don;t think your source is saying what you think it is saying. It doesn't compare the audience figure with anything but other SoOs. Other sports are not mentioned, or included. HiLo48 (talk) 08:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

We have to remember that, at the moment, we are talking about the lead paragraphs of the article - which is pretty minimal at the moment And the article is Football in Australia. It is not Football Television Ratings in Australia. Make up a separate article about that if you want - or at best make it a section, but if you do that there probably should be more detailed sections on participation, attendance, media coverage, history etc. This article was a dab page until May last year, so it has evolved from that and hasn't really been laid out fully to cover all of the issues yet.

The lede should only contain the most important facts. Above I'm accused queried about an AFL bias because I put the AFL GF as being the #1 show last year ahead of the NRL GF. If the result was the other way round, I would have put that. #1 watched sports event for a recent year is notable. You could argue why not 2010, why not for the whole of the 2000s, why not of all time, and I'd say go for it...but only if you can find a reliable independent reference and put it in. I happened to find a ref for 2009. But don't put in too much info, not in the lede. Don't put NRL was the most watched in 1997-2001, AFL for the next 2, then NRL for 3, then AFL and NRL for a year each etc. Keep it simple. Unless you do the sectioning thing and reference everything.

Most games above 1 million viewers is an arbitrary figure, why not 750k? Why not 1.5 mill? 500k? Either way it doesn't belong in the lead. Popularity of SoO could be suitable for the lede, but not the way it's currently written, as there is no regular equivalent representative series in any other code. Saying that they are the next most watched football games after the grand finals is better than claiming a crown against virtually noone. Soccer internationals are ad hoc, not a regular series, rugby tri-nations could only just be considered similar.

And Matt, AFL tv ratings might be down recently, probably because we actually attend the games, and not just watch them on tv.The-Pope (talk) 15:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well there's a paragraph for AFL attendances so having a paragraph for TV ratings is equally valid. As for total season ratings for the games covered by the broadcast deals, the NRL's total viewership for 2010 is 129 million for 210 games (192 H&A, 9 finals, 1 CvC, 3 SOO, 1 AS, 4 4N's) (614,250 per game) compared to 115 million for the AFL's 188 (176 H&A, 10 finals, 2 IRS) (611,700 per game). The reason it averages out so close is because AFL has 4 to 5 F2A games a week but NRL games rate better than AFL on Pay-TV - that's why the NRL is slightly ahead - despite only getting primetime coverage in half the country. As for 1 million viewers - it's the minimum cut off for the top programs list of the year and used by the networks as bragging rights. That same list is then used by advertisers to choose which programs to sponsor. As for equivalent representative games, there are: 4 Nations, Tri-Nations, International Rules. The three game State of Origin outrates the entire 9 game Union tri-nations series. There are 6-10 regular international soccer games played. However these are on Fox so attract comparitevly lower ratings. (Mattdocbrown (talk) 00:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

It's silly throwing the International Rules series into that mix. Most AFL fans don't take it very seriously at all, and technically it's a different sport, so there's really little point in even mentioning it. I'd still like to see an exact source for your claim about the SoO being "the most viewed representative series of any sporting code". I found wording that looks a lot like that in one of your sources, but not quite the same, and meaning something very different, not quite so grand. So can you give us a precise link? If it's that pdf file, a page number could help. HiLo48 (talk) 05:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

As for AFL attendances, yes they're bigger. You don't see me debating that. I've heard AFL fans tell me that the game is worse on TV than at the ground - but - as a fan you're either watching the game live at the ground or on TV. You can't be in two places at once. The % of fans in both codes who watch multiple games is almost equal, with a slight edge to the AFL, primarily given their larger coverage on F2A (as pay TV only covers 30% of the population) (Mattdocbrown (talk) 00:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

How about a general statement that says the two are closely matched for TV ratings? Surely not too difficult to find a source for. Is there a need to go into such detail?--Jeff79 (talk) 04:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I have a source that lists the ratings up to the AFL Grand Final#2 and the NRL Grand Final. It doesn't include those games or the games after. (Mattdocbrown (talk) 07:23, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

Introductions

This article all looks very competitive. It's the four codes against each other from different aspects. Perhaps it could have a basic introduction to each of the four say a paragraph on each including major competitions, clubs, events, representative teams, history?? TinTin (talk) 04:51, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the article has been captured by the "my code is the best" brigade. I would endorse your proposal, but don't have much time to help. HiLo48 (talk) 17:16, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Football as soccer

Edits were recently made to this article which stated soccer = Football. All references to soccer were changed to Football, emphasis on the capital F. This absolutely cannot be done because it makes the article impossible to read and understand in a country where football can refer to any one of seven different codes. It makes the meaning incredibly difficult to understand. WP:COMMONNAME in Australia is what is required to make this article make sense. --LauraHale (talk) 06:17, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

There is only one Football!! --Happy Winger (talk) 08:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

This article shows extreme bias against Football! Why is so much of it dedicated to aussie rules. No one knows about aussie rules outside of Victoria. For example, why is there just an aussie rules table, and no other table for Football. The fact that International rules is mentioned is an affront to all true Football lovers and should be deleted immediately. It is a national embarassment. What are you people thinking?? --Happy Winger (talk) 08:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Right. When I tune into the footy show, which code will I get? Sadly, there is multi-code reality in Australia. Contributions appreciated, but if association football is being discussed, it needs to use soccer. If you want to add additional information, you can and should... but not at the expense of using it to booster your preferred code. --LauraHale (talk) 08:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well you will either get a show about ARF or Rugby I think you will find. Though how that is relevent to football (soccer) isn't redily apparent as it is not referred to as footy. 203.122.229.124 (talk) 07:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Please see the article Soccer in Australia and its Talk page. Extensive discussion there led to the consensus that Soccer is the practical and sensible name for the round ball game in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 17:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. --Happy Winger (talk) 04:21, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

That 'discussion' does in no way settle anything regarding the usage of the word soccer in isolation to football. Football and soccer are interchangeable words in the same way that league and football, and rugby and football, and Australian Rules Football and football are. There should be no issue with the term football (soccer) being used as it is entirely unambiguous and correct both within Australia and globally. To clarify I have no problems with the term soccer at all, but I do have an issue with the unsustainable reasoning behind the alteration from football (soccer) to soccer. I would also want it made apparant that if you can provide a sound and logical reason for this change to be maintained I will accept it, so far though this has not been able to be done. 203.122.229.124 (talk) 07:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

the whole article is about football, so writing football (soccer) is a very clumsy, verbose and harder to read wikispecific style that is entirely unnecessary in this article. The-Pope (talk) 09:25, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

In normal conversation nobody ever actually calls the round ball code football (soccer). They simply call it soccer if they aren't fans, or if they are and are trying to communicate with the the wider community. If they are fans, they may use just football, or just soccer. But just football won't work in this article. Football (soccer) seems to me to be some sort of clumsy, artificial compromise which isn't going to please many people at all. HiLo48 (talk) 21:26, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Why is Football in New South Wales and all the other states disambiguations pages and this is not? If it is to compare one football code to another why not do it state by state as well? Alternatively why exclude sports not called football from the comparision. The arbitrary term football is not a good reason. --Falcadore (talk) 08:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is a very clumsy article which inevitably attracts those wanting to prove that their favoured form of football is better than the others. Better to just point readers at the articles on the individual codes and let them draw their own conclusions. HiLo48 (talk) 08:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

A new, valuable looking source

Here.

What do you all think? HiLo48 (talk) 06:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Something is missing

The first sentence in the National teams section starts with "National football teams include Socceroos)..."; obviously something has been lost, but I have no clue what. --Khajidha (talk) 02:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Replace article with disambiguation page

Reading through the article I see no real need for it. Most of the specific (and more useful) content can be found on the respecting individual sporting articles (that is, of league, union, ALF, football). I think it would be best to just replace article with a disambiguation page instead. Something like this:

Football in Australia may refer to several popular sports played in the country. These include:

• Australian rules football in Australia
• Soccer in Australia
• Rugby league in Australia
• Rugby union in Australia

It may also include:

• American football in Australia
• Futsal in Australia

Thoughts?--2nyte (talk) 08:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

NO! And just piss off with your constant efforts to try to make everyone use the name football for soccer in Australia, as you've given away in your second sentence. (And ALF! LOL.) You're losing the argument at Talk:Soccer in Australia#Requested move again, and are now forum shopping to keep wasting everyone's time. Nobody should have to keep repeating arguments all over the place just because you're obsessed, and clearly have nothing better to do. HiLo48 (talk) 08:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand how you have come to that conclusion, I am not trying to be cryptic. Though, regarding the topic are you saying no to replacing this article with a disambiguation page? What usefulness do you find in the current article that cannot be found on the on the individual footballing articles?--2nyte (talk) 08:56, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The usefulness is it provides an overview of football in Australia. Individual articles do not. We moved Sport in Australia away from that by sport method of thinking because it is entirely inaccurate in its depiction of sport in Australia, by giving equal weight to underwater hockey and Australian football. What rationale do you have that explains greater use for that disambiguation than the current article text? --LauraHale (talk) 08:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

No. The article talking about the various football codes is better than a disambiguation as it most accurately reflects the history of football in Australia. I am not seeing why a result article should be replaced with a disambiguation. I also do not see why it should have soccer placed above alphabetically above the other two codes, especially when soccer is the least profitable code domestically. You're also missing Touch football and seven-a-side football. --LauraHale (talk) 08:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I did intend for the list to be in alphabetical order. That was a mistake on my part. Though as for other sports, I only looked as far as Template:Australian sport, so I didn't see Touch football or seven-a-side football, but I don't mind them being added. Maybe something on Gaelic football as well. As for the reason why, well as HiLo48 said on Talk:Football_in_Australia#Disambiguation: "this is a very clumsy article which inevitably attracts those wanting to prove that their favoured form of football is better than the others. Better to just point readers at the articles on the individual codes and let them draw their own conclusions". Also I think this article is very general and could easily be summarised into a few lines (or even better, a disambiguation page).--2nyte (talk) 09:17, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Why did you use the word football to describe soccer in your post, defying a consensus you're extremely well aware of? I know why, though other readers may not. It's your pig-headed, stubborn, forum shopping, ignorance based immaturity on display. As for this article, it's better now if we improve it, maybe adding detail that crosses the boundaries of the different games called football in Australia. The obvious crossover is between league and union, but in over 150 years of games called football being played there's obviously a lot more. HiLo48 (talk) 10:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not like you, HiLo48, to be quite so intemperate. I do take issue with your contention that the consensus here is that Association football be referred to as "soccer". I cannot understand why you are so dedicated to not using the code's proper name ie. "Association football". What would be your reaction if we tried to change the references to Australian Rules football as "footie" - the diminutive used in the southern states. Silent Billy (talk) 12:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

This should be converted into a disamibuation page. An article titled Football in Australia should be about one topic, not four. If there was a direct relationship between the codes there would be something to write about. If the only thing in common is an unofficial nickname then that pretty much is the definition of unencyclopedic isn't it? 124.185.17.231 (talk) 12:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree. All football codes in Australia have grown independently of one another, besides a name there's no real relationship.--2nyte (talk) 14:57, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

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