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Current disputes

Anti-Serb sentiment

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Anti-Serb sentiment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Antidiskriminator (talk · contribs)
• Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs)
• Joy (talk · contribs)
• Bobrayner (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A group of users think that it is wrong to have criticism section in the article about hatred towards an ethnic group, in this case Serbs, because it implies that such a sentiment may not even exist and justifies this sentiment (based on source which I believe is outdated politically motivated primary source). This view is also based on WP:CONSISTENCY - because no other article (link to navigation template with 45 of them) on hatred toward an ethnic group does not have criticism section.

I proposed not to deny or justify hatred in Controversy section but to present explanations in one or couple of sentences within the main body of the article (with no outdated politically motivated primary sources) or to point to articles which provide more context in the See also section.

Peacemaker67 and Joy do not agree.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion

How do you think we can help?

To organize discussion based on human common sense, arguments and wikipedia policies without unnecessary personalization, uncivility and fallacy, which would hopefully lead to consensus about this dispute.

Summary of dispute by Peacemaker67

I will not be able to enter into this discussion properly until I have access to a real computer (at least five days away). I'm on iPhone, and it just isn't practical. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 13:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I will just briefly add that the "group of users" Antidiskriminator alludes to is a group of one. The other two editors that have engaged in this discussion are a registered account that has made a total of two edits (both to the talk page thread in question), and an IP that has made one edit (also to this talk page thread). Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:12, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. I'll put aside the other problems with the article (such as WP:SYNTH and WP:COATRACK, on which I agree with Joy and bobrayner). The central issue here is the means by which we include in the article an examination of how entirely legitimate examples of "Anti-Serb/Serbia sentiment" during WWI (the reaction to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand) and WWII (Hitler's attitude to the Serbs and the genocidal policies and actions of the Ustashe) were woven into a propaganda narrative in the 1980's and 1990's by Slobodan Milošević and his fellow travellers. This propaganda narrative of perpetual Serb victimhood was then used to justify and encourage "all sorts of nastiness" (as Joy puts it) during the breakup of Yugoslavia. Antidiskriminator relies on WP:CONSISTENCY, which has been an inactive proposal since 2006 and on which there was no apparent consensus. A quick look at WT:CONSENSUS will confirm what the perceived problems with the proposal were, and several editors made cogent observations against the proposal with which I have sympathy. In my view, key amongst them are, "The fact that two different groups of people say two different things is not logically contradictory" and "encyclopedia articles are more like separate stories. Individual stories have consistency--truth relative to them. Taken together, however, they are a jumble of purported facts that don't really have much to do with each other." Whether this article is stylistically consistent with other articles on ethnic hatred is WP:OTHERSTUFF in my view. The actions of Serbs in the past that have contributed to "Anti-Serb sentiment" (such as colonisation of Albanian-speaking areas during the Balkan Wars), and the use of past misdeeds against Serbs to justify Serb misdeeds in the 80's/90's are both central to the story of "Anti-Serb sentiment", and to remove them or reduce discussion of them to a couple of sentences (as Antidiskriminator proposes) would mean that the article would not tell the whole story (and would lack context). The idea that discussion of the use of "Anti-Serb sentiment" as propaganda in the 80's/90's could imply that "Anti-Serb sentiment" has never existed is inherently contradictory. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 23:19, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Joy

Please see Talk:Anti-Serb sentiment#Criticism?? etc. The entirety of the article has a variety of problems; pruning the criticism altogether, which is what was suggested originally, would easily be seen as whitewashing, and adding just another problem to the pile. Antidiskriminator seems to have a tendency of making various edits consistent with Serbian nationalist talking points, recently he 'earned' an WP:ARBMAC topic ban over one Serbian World War II issue (a Chetnik commander) and led to a move ban over another (the article about the Nazi occupation of Serbia), and this appears to be no exception - let's shun the criticism from the get-go just because it doesn't fit our preferred narrative. Assorted Croatian and other nationalists who tried to delete the entire article on their own deluded premises notwithstanding -- the criticism of the use of this term in the more recent history is entirely legitimate, and is already sourced to several English-language publications that appear to be reliable sources. The term has been tainted in the 1980s with the SANU Memorandum's perfidious invocation of "Serbophobia", and in turn Slobodan Milošević's fake outrage about it - they used it as a blatant technique to make the Serbs look like the perpetual victims, while at the same time they orchestrated all sorts of nastiness in the breakup of Yugoslavia. The encyclopedic entry on the phenomenon and the phrase would be incomplete without the clear description of this issue. Also, as I said earlier, having the criticism section does not in any way invalidate the description of the legitimate applications of the phrase, such as those related to WWII. --Joy (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by bobrayner

I agree with Joy's stance that the article has broader problems; it's a collection of Serb-nationalist talking points; any fragment that fits the Serb-victimhood trope is put on the page without context. The issue over the criticism section raised by Antidiskriminator seems to be highly selective; there are wider issues that need to be fixed. Same problem we had at Persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo. bobrayner (talk) 21:47, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Anti-Serb sentiment discussion

Hi;

I've asked another regular to help me mediate in this matter, and until he agrees, this will be quite slow to kick off.

--The Historian (talk) 19:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, I've got a second mediator who's willing to assist on this matter, and he's going to take the lead. To start off, I'd like parties to provide summaries of no more than one paragraph of their cases. Antidiskriminator, I want you to have a look at your link that is entitled "45 of them", since it just shows a template - I'm not 100% sure as to what it's meant to show, and I'd like it if you'd correct that please. The Historian (talk) 12:26, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Corrected.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:43, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Fromm looking at the Misplaced Pages:Consistency, the rule described therein only applies to factual consistency. Stylistic consistency, which is what I think you're arguing over, is dealt with in the manual of style. From what I've read on the manual of style, it appears that Misplaced Pages does favour consistency across all articles. This is my opinion, and I'd like the leading mediator to take a look to see whether I'm on the right track, so don't take my reasoning here as gospel until the lead mediator has given it the OK. --The Historian (talk) 18:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes you are right. Stylistic consistency is dealt with in the manual of style. WP:CONSISTENCY only say that "the organization and presentation of the information should be uniform across articles" which confirm your oppinion that "Misplaced Pages does favour consistency across all articles"--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Based on this fact, could parties make submissions of not more than one paragraph, written in this "discussion" session, on what effect the fact that WP:Consistensy does not apply might have on this dispute, and how we should proceed. I ask this merely because one of the parties (I've lost track of whom) alleges that WP:CONSISTENSY does apply. Since we have worked out that it doesn't, the original claimant's submission that it does has fallen away. --The Historian (talk) 20:11, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Kfar Etzion massacre

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Kfar Etzion massacre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ykantor (talk · contribs)
• nishidani (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Nishidani deleted my editing. the Diff page. The problems are:

• Is the term "After their surrender" correct?
• The first sentence should include important facts ( who attacked, where was it) and possibly exclude less important information (the date relatively to the independence declaration).

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

it is discussed in the talk page. We could not find a compromise.

How do you think we can help?

Hopefully, a volunteer will convince us to find a compromise.

Summary of dispute by nishidani

This is being discussed on the page. Generally ykantor's edit (a) rewrote this, which is, as anyone can see a source-adequate statement of the totally misleading lead that preceded it. Ykantor complains I cancelled his revision of my edit. Were I to complain, I would note he cancelled my edit, and did so rewriting a contentless garbled and tediously repetitive sentence to replace it. (b) he added a totally irrelevant and lengthy note clearly intended to contaminate a neutral description of the event with the insinuation that 'Arabs' were accustomed to massacring Jews. That didn't provide historic context, it implied this event was a behavioural problem in Arabs. This is all I will say here. One does not go to this page to complain about a dispute when the talk page is productively engaged in resolving the questions mentioned.Nishidani (talk) 08:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Kfar Etzion massacre discussion

• Nishidani's version is much better than Ykantor's one. It provides the historical background, which is important in the context of controversial and dramatic events such the massacres of the 1948 war. Nishidani's version is also more detailled. Anyway, major problem is the behaviour of Ykantor who systematically adds "quotes" that tend to influence the neutral description of the events as well as the fact he systematically discusses each detail and complains when discussions don't go in the direction that he wants. He is in infraction with WP:POINT with his numerous requests and also by the way he intervenes on the different talk pages of wikipedia. Pluto2012 (talk) 10:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

2Cellos nationality

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2Cellos (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Eleassar (talk · contribs)
• Odiriuss (talk · contribs)
• Helpbottt (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This content dispute concerns the nationality of the music group 2Cellos. Whereas they are described as 'Croatian' at their homepage () and facebook page (), secondary sources describe them as a Croatian-Slovenian duo. The correct description has been extensively discussed at Talk:2Cellos, with the general consensus that the last description is more appropriate. As far as I understand, per WP:SECONDARY, interpretive claims like this one should be based and referenced to secondary sources. An independent review and opinion would be much appreciated.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

The discussion on the talk page, request for a third opinion.

How do you think we can help?

The provision of an independent view would be much appreciated.

Summary of dispute by Odiriuss

User Eleassar clearly doesn't understand what the function of primary and secondary sources is,therefore he doesn't understand that there is no content dispute since on their official pages it clearly states that they are Croatian. Secondary sources cannot be used to determine someones national identity,since it is only that persons choice and as already stated,it clearly says on their official page that it is Croatian. Furthermore,there was no general consensus on Eleassars description,that is an outright lie which can be easily checked by going over the talk page,the only one who insists on this description is Eleassar. With all that said,it is clear that there is no content dispute,only Eleassar claims there is due to his poor understanding of primary and secondary sources and his agenda,i have reported him for vandalising the page because that is precisely what he is doing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 09:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Forgot to say that there are at least ten times more secondary sources that clearly state they are Croatian, here are just a few : http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/12/ny-2cellos-fall-tour-idUSnPNNY46392+1e0+PRN20130712,http://www.artistdirect.com/entertainment-news/article/2cellos-to-release-in2ition-on-january-15/10362706, http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmusic/article/2CELLOS-to-Launch-First-North-American-Tour-in-April-20130319, http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/music/Canadas+Ezrin+takes+unique+Croatian+2Cellos+under/8444073/story.html, http://www.robe.cz/news/article/2cellos-for-robe/, http://www.contactmusic.com/news/2cellos-classical-music-can-be-boring_3445942. Odiriuss (talk) 10:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Helpbottt

I have to agree with Odiriuss. This duo, is described as Croatian on every relevant site, except Slovenian ones. --Helpbottt (talk) 10:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

2Cellos nationality discussion

Hi there, I'm a volunteer here at DRN. Am I correct in saying the majority of the discussion is over a year old bar a few comments from 5 months ago or has discussion taken place recently in another location? If the former then why is this DRN being filed now? To me it seems the third opinion given by Number 57 was reasonable. Finally, when referring to the origin of the band itself, it was formed and developed in Croatia primarily so I'd refer to the band as Croatian, judging by the sources this is the view held by many. Putting Slovenian in the nationality also feels awkward and like its being forced in there. Personally I'd like to see more recent discussion on the talk page before taking this as a DRN but I'll let another volunteer weigh in on that before closing it. Cabe6403 10:23, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion that first took place was because on their official site and facebook page it did not clearly state the nationality of the duo,since then it has been changed to Croatian duo on both their official pages. Eleassar changed the article again yesterday citing some obscure secondary source from 2012 to prove his "case" without posting on the talk page,today i and Helpbottt changed it back and I reported him for vandalism since 99 % of all other secondary sources refer to them as Croatian,except the Slovenian ones. Odiriuss (talk) 10:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

We've tried to resolve the issue at the talk page, but to no avail, which meant that involvement of a wider community is needed. In regard to Odiriruss's opinion I somehow don't see how he has found out that there are 10 times as many sources stating the band is Croatian not Croatian-Slovenian. A description of the nationality of the band is also a matter not only of their personal choice (no explicit statement about this has been presented), but also of the perception by the environment where they're active. In any case, this is something that sources evidently disagree upon. Per WP:NPOV, we should report all significant opinions and not present any one of them as a fact. If the issue is contentious, we should report in the lead that opinions differ if at all. I therefore support the proposal by Number 57 to leave out the nationality from the lead as their backgrounds are well-described in the first section. This was already implemented by an anonymous user in January 2012,, but reverted by User:Scrosby85 a month later, which is a shame. --Eleassar 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Again,the issue on the talk page was because there was no information about their nationality on their OFFICIAL pages,i cannot stress that enough,now that it has been updated this shouldn't be an issue,only Eleassar is making it one. A simple google search clearly shows the state of secondary sources on this matter,there are virtually none that describe them as Eleassar would like them to be,thus there is no issue whatsoever besides in Eleassars imagination. Odiriuss (talk) 11:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I will quote Odiriuss and then show below that he is wrong.

"What's funny is that you obviously have no idea what you are talking about... There at least ten times more secondary sources that confirm they are Croatian, here are just a few: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Funny, ha? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 10:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC) "

The queries below will prove Odiriuss wrong and Eleassar right. The first query gives correct (advanced) Google search results for "Croatian duo", i.e. without the instances where "Croatian duo" is only a part of the full "Slovenian-Croatian duo" text, and combined with the search for the word "2cellos".
The second query will give you correct results for "Slovenian-Croatian duo" query, combined with the search for "2cellos". The number of hits are 323 and 1100, respectively.
Try for yourself.
Query #1: www.google.com/search?q="Croatian+duo"+2cellos+-"Slovenian-Croatian+duo"
Query #2: https://www.google.com/search?q="Croatian-Slovenian+duo"+2cellos. --DancingPhilosopher (talk) 11:38, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you serious? Google 2Cellos, or 2Cellos article,not duos and then tell me how many pages it takes to find Croatian-Slovenian?Odiriuss (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Just checked your links, there are barely 3 pages for Croatian-Slovenian, and 14 pages for Croatian even with you query DancingPhilosopher. That is pretty conclusive, thank you. Odiriuss (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

If you search "Croatian duo" 2cellos (https://www.google.hr/?gws_rd=cr&ei=83IoUqCYIs-Kswav0IDYCw#q=%22Croatian+duo%22+2cellos&start=250) you get 25 pages,if you search "Croatian-Slovenian duo" 2cellos (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Croatian-Slovenian+duo%22+2cellos#q=%22Croatian-Slovenian+duo%22+2cellos&start=20) you get 2 full pages and 2 more entries,that is pretty conclusive. Odiriuss (talk) 11:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

In numbers, 246 that say Croatian compared to 22 that say Croatian-Slovenian, so i apologise, i was wrong, it's actually more then ten times. Odiriuss (talk) 12:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm one of the volunteers here at DRN. Two things tip the scales here quite clearly: the group self identifies as Croatian, and a majority of reliable sources do as well. It's not our place, nor the place of media outlets or otherwise to dictate the national identification of a person or group. Given the ratio, it'd be undue weight in my opinion to write Croatian-Slovenian. That'd be like saying "Princess Diana was murdered" - just because a handful take that view does not mean we should change it from the largely held one. Steven Zhang 12:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and also the google test doesn't carry any weight in these types of discussion other than as a quick rule of thumb Cabe6403 13:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you guys, when you look at it objectively, it's all pretty clear. Since both of you agree, i would like to ask you to close this discussion. Odiriuss (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Pokémon X and Y

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Pokémon X and Y (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ryulong (talk · contribs)
• Wonchop (talk · contribs)
• Blake (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

As new information was released for this video game, I had been adding the English and Japanese language terms for new video game mechanics. In the last 24 hours, Wonchop removed all of the Japanese text multiple times. I approached him on his talk page requesting he not remove it at User talk:Wonchop#Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle, but he moved the discussion to the article talk page at Talk:Pokémon X and Y#Unneccessary Japanese and snarkily said he was tired of me talking to him (he was also snarky here). Blake commented on the talk page, and after WP:3O volunteers turned it down, he took it as meaning "2 vs 1 means we win" and added a message saying it was forbidden. WP:MOS-JA#Using Japanese in the article body supports my argument, but because I revealed I had been involved in the formation of WP:VG/JP (which I mistakenly thought had something relevant) he will not acknowledge the manual of style's statement, believing I had been involved in its formation as well and therefore cannot be used.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A third opinion was sought by Wonchop, but because Blake had participated this negated the use. I also removed some, but not all, of the accompanying Japanese text but Wonchop does not want any of it, saying I am introducing a Japanese bias to the article, when it is an article about a Japanese subject.

How do you think we can help?

A third opinion was sought, and I have found that I cannot adequately communicate with Wonchop due to stubbornness on his side whenever I try to communicate with him. I have brought a communication problem with him here in the past and it somewhat helped.

Summary of dispute by Wonchop

Ryulong has been overly defiant in this insistance of including Japanese where it is not neccessary, given that the game has already been supplied with official terminology, under the rather boastful assumption that 'it's a Japanese game, therefore it MUST have Japanese text everywhere'. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Non-English games states "For systems and games, English terms are preferred over non-English equivalents when the difference would either be confusing to the reader or unimportant within the context of the article." and despite his insistance that it is 'informational', it is mainly proven to be just noise as many of the things he demands remain translated are terms that are either just katakana or literal translations (eg. the translation of 'Mega Evolution' as 'Mega Shinka'). At the most, the article only needs Japanese translations for the game's title, the game's setting (unless it is mentioned in another linked article) and at a stretch, the Pokémon Bank and Pokémon Transporter apps, as they can be considered as seperate software. He has also been very defiant in some of the beneficial edits I have made, such as simplifying the Gameplay description to not focus heavily on specific Pokémon (since it'll become irrelevant when the game is released) and repetition. Ryulong's behaviour has been, to put it as nicely as I can, hypocritical, often accusing me of disrupting the article when he is clearly no better himself, if not worse.Wonchop (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Blake

While I agree with Wonchop's opinion of the content in the article, I disagree with the way that both parties are going about this. Ryulong mentions how stubborn Wonchop is being, but he is being equally as stubborn. An edit war takes two to participate, and as such, they are both responsible. He also mentions writing the guideline that he is enforcing, which makes his stance very sketchy, and while I don't mean to make any enemies, I just can't agree with the way that he is participating in this debate. Wonchop also brought some WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments which makes his points just as invalid as Ryulong's. I would have liked a third party editor to step in, but it would be best if they were knowledgeable about both video game articles and the Japanese manual of style, similar to Ryulong, but with less of an aggressive attitude. _Blake 19:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Pokémon X and Y#Unnecessary Japanese discussion

Blake, I did not write the guideline I am enforcing.—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I was referring to the WP:VG guidelines, which you admitted that you did help write, due to the project's incorrect guidelines in that area. I don't think I have bothered to check the JPMOS ones, so I can't say for certain whether they support your argument. For the record, my opinion is just that if the subject is only being discussed in passing, then the Japanese name is not necessary, while if it is something even as significant as a whole paragraph, then it could be permitted. _Blake 19:56, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, may I note that Wonchop went ahead and wrote guidelines himself, so if you use those, use it with a grain of salt, knowing that he wrote them after this argument took place. _Blake 20:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I assure you those weren't added to spite Ryulong, but simply because there was no mention of Japanese text outside of game titles. I'm as big an anime fan as anybody, but I respect that an English Misplaced Pages needs to have a general focus on English, with Japanese only been used to explain things that English alone could not. Just because a game is developed in Japan doesn't mean that it should be filled with Japanese trivia when there are perfectly good English terms available. According to the article's history, the additions have been generally approved of.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wonchop (talk • contribs)

Now that definitely does not have any sort of consensus and is equally as disruptive. I've reverted. Things like that should be brought up for discussion on the talk page.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, just so I don't have to come back here for a while(need to focus on some college work for a bit), I think the winning solution would be to list these gameplay features under Gameplay of Pokémon, like is usually done, and the Japanese names can then be shown there, where they are being primarily discussed. This would free up the clutter in the article, while also being supported by the WP:MOS-JA guideline. _Blake 20:05, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I feel that this conflict involves illogical adherence to MOSJA, a community guideline, versus the wikiproject guideline of WP:VG/GL. The question of Japanese usage should be case by case where the careful wording of VG/GL should be taken over the more vague MOSJA. No wikiproject owns a page and since the two sides conflict, typically MOSJA would be preferred, but on its vagueness and the narrow case I'd defer to VG/GL specific reading of, " English terms are preferred over non-English equivalents when the difference would either be confusing to the reader or unimportant within the context of the article." The question that must be asked by both parties: "Why is it an improvement to use the English name and immediately follow it with a different Japanese name without addressing the name in context or referencing it again?" ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Ryulong thinks that just because "it can" means "it should", while Wonchop is trying to make it against guidelines to do it. Overall, it is a loose guideline, and generally allows for the fact that if it helps the article, it can be included under certain restrictions(once per term, and not if it links to an article with more information). The thing is, these names do not help the reader understand it at all unless they are able to read Japanese, which is a very very very small percentage of readers. As they don't help the average reader any, they should be used sparingly, which is what I have said. They should be used when the subject is the primary point of discussion, but not for every single term in the article. Further more, many of these terms can be thrown over to the full gameplay article, where it would be permissible to include the Japanese name. _Blake 22:13, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I'd side with not mentioning terms that do not have an explicit and pressing need for Japanese reference when the term already has a concrete and definitive official English definition. A second question could be asked: "What is the purpose of mentioning the Japanese name when it will not be analyzed or repeated throughout the article?"ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It provides more real world context by showing that the Japanese version existed rather than WP:VG's apparent preference to believe that once a localization occurs no one needs to know anything about the Japanese release anymore. That was evident years ago when I helped introduce WP:VG/JP. And I remember that when Pokemon Black and White were finally announced in English, people began changing the Japanese names to the English ones in the sections about the build up to the Japanese release. Japanese text isn't intrusive. It gives the readers more information. It can't be confusing. No one's going to analyze any of these things in a serious manner other than the mechanics once it gets released so your argument holds for even providing any proper nouns.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Outside opinion - Like Chris, I'd side with not including the japanese where there's no explicit need for them, especially when there's an official English term. At WP:MOS-JA#Japanese terms it says Give the romanization for any Japanese name or term written in kanji or kana by following the pattern. Things like "Mega Evolution" aren't romanizations of Japanese names. They are the English name for that aspect. Sentences like this: star-shaped Kalos Region (カロス地方 Karosu-chihō?), with Lumiose City (Miare City (ミアレシティ Miare Shiti?) in Japan) as its central city. are now more confusing with nested parenthesis. (Please note: I am not stating this in a capacity of a DRN volunteer, rather I am a WP:VG contributor and am commenting from an editor point of view) Cabe6403 08:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

That is an incredibly wrong misinterpretation of the Japanese manual of style. If you actually read the whole thing it is describing how the English form, Japanese form, and romanization of the Japanese form are supposed to be formatted when listed together. "Mega Evolution" is "メガシンカ" in Japanese and that is romanized as "Mega Shinka" so you format it as {{nihongo|Mega Evolution|メガシンカ|Mega Shinka}}. This part of the style guide does not govern when or when not to include Japanese text.—Ryulong (琉竜) 13:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

The point still stands that there is no need to give a Japanese translation of an official English term, particularly when it's an identical word or a literal translation. The only terms that should really be given translations are the terms that benefit from having one, such as games where Japanese terminology is brought over into the English version such as Metal Gear Rising's Zandetsu technique or Viewtiful Joe's catchphrase of "Henshin-a-go-go, baby!". And as mentioned, the Pokémon Bank and Poké Transporter apps could be given their Japanese titles since they can be treated as seperate software. But other than that, it's your typical case of "too many cooks spoil the broth". Throwing in too much Japanese where it isn't neccessary purely for the sake of 'it's a Japanese-made game' just ruins the article's flow.Wonchop (talk) 13:40, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Just because a localization exists and terms have been translated does not mean the original form should not be acknowledged unless a foreign language word is used in the localization. The Japanese text does not ruin the flow. Hundreds of other articles include Japanese text in the prose and they do exhibit the problems you think they do.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:13, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Likewise, just because a Japanese translation for something exists, doesn't mean it needs to be used. You have done nothing to show these things need to be included outside of the argument that "it's a Japanese game, therefore it needs lots of Japanese".Wonchop (talk) 15:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

What other argument is there? If an article is about something French I expect it to include French words. If an article is about something Russian I expect it to include Cyrillic. WP:MOS-JA says it can be added and I added it to the article in the months and months I've been editting it. No one ever had a problem or said "why do we have these". You suddenly decided that you felt they were "unneccessary" and removed all of them without discussion, and even while discussion was still underway.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:43, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on the edit not the editor, the discussion is about the appropriateness of the Japanese names. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:59, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how the fact that the content was not an issue up until Wonchop made it an issue is not relevant here. No one paid it any mind until Wonchop felt that they were "unneccessary".—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, if you're acting here as volunteer Chris, I would like to request a different volunteer, preferrably one who is not currently in another dispute with me that has been going on for most of this year.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:04, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain that's not how debates work. You can't just demand people be left out of the argument just because they don't agree with your opinion. Wonchop (talk) 19:19, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri and I have been in a dispute since March. I would rather have someone else mediate this. That is not too much to ask.—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not like he's compelled to take my side either. Wonchop (talk) 19:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I would just like someone who is uninvolved with all parties.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I did not say I was mediating this. If you cannot argue why your edit is an improvement than do not make the edit. Forgetting anything to do with policy for a moment, if you cannot justify the action, why defend it? Wonchop has as much right as any other editor to challenge something that they find questionable or detrimental to the article and the justification for the edit is backed with a reason. Ryulong, you are on the other side, but you do not seem to have given a reason why the names aid in comprehension of the subject or are an improvement at all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:22, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Because I am fully allowed to do so per WP:MOS-JA which sets out rules for all articles on Japanese subjects. This requirement that they must aid in comprehension of the subject is not written anywhere in any policy or guideline. Do we exclude the Spanish language terms at Bullfighting (or Spanish-style bullfighting)? No. So no one should be forbidden for doing the same for Japanese language video game jargon simply because an English translation is available.—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:39, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Poor articles to compare to, but I'm not going to used the flawed statement of "otherstuff" as people have argued (it does not apply btw), but MOS-JA is not absolute. There is no pressing need to even mention the Japanese name, so why do so "per MOS-JA"? If you cannot justify it than it should be removed. If you want to keep repeating the same thing be my guest, but I am going to agree with Wonchop's logical argument. ChrisGualtieri (talk)

His logical argument is "do not ever use Japanese text unless a word is Japanese in the English release". I do not think we need to be limited that much. It's verifiable. It's sourced. It's not indiscriminately chosen. There is nothing but subjective personal preference being pushed by Wonchop.—Ryulong (琉竜) 22:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

You shouldn't twist people's statements (Japanese words used in English releases were just one of the examples I gave, not the solitary one, if you had even bothered to read what I had proposed for WP:VG/GL), nor should you imply people are pushing their personal preferences when you are clearly doing so yourself.Wonchop (talk) 22:28, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm editing in a method allowed (although not mandadory) by other manuals of style. It's more important to show the real world connections rather than just constantly acting as if it had never existed in any other language prior (as is often the case for Pokémon pages).—Ryulong (琉竜) 22:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

But apparently people aren't allowed to exclude them in favor of making the article more readable for a general audience (considering the fact you've also been reverting my attempts to simplify the Gameplay segment outside of the use/exclusion of Japanese terms by limiting mentions of specific Pokémon). You're the only one who sees this as some terrifying oppression against culture. Wonchop (talk) 22:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

You simplified it too much to where things that previously had no description anywhere else on the project were cut down to halves of sentences when neither item had anything to do with the other outside of being in the same video game. Also I'm tired of having this fucking conversation in three different places.—Ryulong (琉竜) 22:54, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Then just drop it. From what I can tell, we've more or less exhausted every possible reasoning in trying to prove our cases. Let the DRN guys sort out this dispute from here and let other users in WP:VG/GL discuss what to do with my proposed suggestions. Wonchop (talk) 23:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

It should be stopped on other pages when it was brought here. I'm part of the dispute so I should be involved in its resolution, as per the whole purpose of this board.—Ryulong (琉竜) 23:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Marcos Avellan

The Articles for Deletion (AFD) listing on this article has a built-in form of dispute resolution, and DRN is not available for disputes pending in other forums. In particular, the independent editor — usually a administrator — who closes that listing will evaluate and resolve any disputes pending there over notability. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:51, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Anthony Johnson (colonist)

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Anthony Johnson (colonist) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• WLRoss (talk · contribs)
• Scoobydunk (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A new editor, Scoobydunk, disputes the view that John Casor was the first legal slave in the British colonies and that his owner Anthony Johnson was thus the first slave owner. He supports that Indentured servitude for life is slavery which makes John Punch the first slave and Hugh Gwyn the first slave owner. Scoobydunk has deleted text pointing out that Indentured servitude for life was not uncommon in the colonies and other related text that does not support his view. I added seven sources, books written by authors with history degrees, to the specific claim. Scoobydunk deleted the claim while leaving the references.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I discussed the problem on the Talk page. and added at least 15 academic sources to the article supporting the original text. An uninvolved editor also explained the difference between servitude and slavery to Scoobydunk which was rejected.

How do you think we can help?

Add input from uninvolved editors in a noticeboard environment.

Summary of dispute by Scoobydunk

Anthony Johnson (colonist) discussion

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