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	Joseph Smith has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 11, 2005 Peer review Reviewed December 14, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted May 3, 2010 Peer review Reviewed June 2, 2010 Good article nominee Not listed March 6, 2011 Good article nominee Not listed October 25, 2012 Good article nominee Listed August 16, 2013 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Good article

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Overcitation

Both FAC reviewers so far have mentioned the overcitation in this article. I'd like to look for consensus here on the talk page before slashing and burning them - especially since I wasn't present for much of the POV warring that led to them, so I'm not as familiar with which ones are useful, and which ones are just left-overs. What would be the best way to reduce the overcitation?

I'm thinking, to begin with, that we eliminate all (or most) mid-sentence citations, and merge them with their citations that appear at the end of the sentence. Also, we could be much more selective on which long blockquotes we include in the citations themselves, or pare down lengthy blockquotes into shorter snippets.

Thoughts? Ideas? -Trevdna (talk) 19:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep, getting rid of the mid-sentence citations is probably a good way to start. I've started going through those section by section, combining them into a single ref at the end of the sentence, and eliminating the duplicates. If there's a lot of text in the citation that's trying to prove some obscure and loosely related point, I cut that as well. Don't worry about not having read all the talk page archives...fresh eyes are probably better anyway. Having every sentence punctuated by a citation is still a little on the side of overcite, but I don't think people will complain. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead paragraph for section

I should probably provide an explanation for this edit. Initially I thought sourcing it would be easy, since sources already exist in the article saying the same things. I realized, however, that the two paragraphs are very redundant with the other stuff. The first paragraph (Smith was innovative and divisive) is redundant with the 2nd paragraph in the "Impact" section. The second paragraph about Smith's teachings evolving from temporal to spiritual is redundant with the last paragraph in the "Other revelations" subsection immediately above. Anyway, that's the reason I ended up just blanking it. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks for explaining. I think the section looks bare without a lead, and I still think it would go over better in an FAC to have something there dealing with his body of teachings as a whole. Something so readers can get a feel for how his views/teachings, as a whole were/are viewed. I didn't mean for it to be viewed as redundant, but I was trying to give an overview. So, I guess what I'm saying is, I'd still like there to be something there, I'm just not sure exactly what. Any ideas?

Maybe we could prune the material from other sections if it's redundant? - Trevdna (talk) 15:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Removed photos

OK, I can understand removing the painting of Carthage Jail, since it's based on a description of events that may or may not have actually happened. I'll try to get a picture of the actual jail here when I have more time. (I'm sure there's one we could use at Carthage Jail. But I only have a few minutes.) However, I think the image of the golden plates is worth keeping in the article, because it's a representation of an artifact of such critical importance to Smith's life. Whether they were real or not is subject to debate, of course, so the caption to the plates could and probably should be reworded to reflect that. But you can't have an article about Joseph Smith without the Book of Mormon, and you can't talk about the Book of Mormon without the golden plates. It's a critical thing to illustrate how they looked / how Smith claimed they looked.

Thoughts? Trevdna (talk) 16:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

@Canstusdis:, You should probably have a look at WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO. You don't get to revert over and over again, demanding that others discuss your edits — the onus is on you to provide an adequate rationale on the talk page, especially when you are reverted by two different people. As for the images, I'm not sure what you mean when you say they're not "representative of actual events". As far as I can tell, the depiction of the golden plates isn't supposed to represent any events at all. It is, according to the caption, "An artistic representation of the Golden plates with the Urim and Thummim, based on descriptions by Smith and others". Is that a problem? As for the second painting, it actually is fairly representative of what happened: there's Smith dead/dying on the ground outside the jail surrounded by the armed mob with blackened faces. Sure, he's not actively falling from the window, but I've seen pictures with him in midair, and they're pretty corny. Granted, this picture is a bit corny as well with the sunbeam, but Fawn Brodie describes that in surprising detail on page 394, which should be enough to justify its inclusion here. (You'll note we don't discuss the sunbeam or the attempted decapitation in the article or the caption.) Sure, I'd rather have a better depiction in the article, but we're rather limited in that regard since we can only use public-domain or open-license images on Misplaced Pages. Do have a better alternative you'd like to suggest? ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Adjwilley. The image, as described, are accurate and should remain as it.--ARTEST4ECHO (/_contribs) 16:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Trevdna as far as removing the painting of Carthage Jail. The text nor references describe what that painting is trying to represent (sunbeams from heaven?). As far as the Golden plates, this photo seem more appropriate:

And this painting more accurately represents Smith's transcription/translation methods:

Both these photos are in the public domain. Canstusdis (talk) 17:41, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Re: "this painting more accurately represents Smith's transcription/translation methods"...more accurately than what? As far as I know there isn't currently an image in the article representing his transcription/translation methods. Are you saying there should be one?

Re: golden plates, there are lots of images representing these, all with their pros and cons. I personally prefer the one in the article because it's a high quality professional-looking photograph of a well-made model, and it includes a replica of the wooden box that Smith said he kept the plates in. The other picture looks like somebody took a picture at a museum, and it's unclear when the model was made (if it's old enough to be in the public domain) or whether the original craftsman gave permission for their work to be published in this manner.

Here's a link to the Google Books version of Brodie, describing what's going on in the other painting, though I don't see it as being terribly important for this article, and I think it's best if we leave that part out entirely, as I'm sure you'll agree. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

So, does this mean you concede the other dispute? Please let me know so I can delete/replace that painting with something more appropriate. (example: File:Carthage_jail_front_entrance.jpg ) I'll discuss the second picture after we've resolved the first. Thanks. Canstusdis (talk) 19:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It means I'd like an image that shows where Smith died (i.e. the outside of the jail with the well). This would do, but is arguably less-historically accurate than the first. This one is extremely low resolution, and it looks like he's doing a backflip. The one you linked to above shows the outside of the jail but not the window he fell from or where he died. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Let the record show that I'm bowing out of this conversation here. You two seem like you've got a better handle on how you'd like to see the article than I do at this point. Trevdna (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I hope you change your mind. I could use your help building consensus. Canstusdis (talk) 22:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

@Adjwilley:, in spite of it's low resolution the second one is the most historically accurate. Canstusdis (talk) 22:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'm not particularly fond of it, but I've made the swap. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Now the problem I have with the second picture is the inclusion of the Urim and Thummim. It implies Smith used some sort of spectacles to read the plates, but we know by the article itself that this is historically inaccurate.

Reference number 188:

Remini (2002, p. 57) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFRemini2002 (help) (noting that Emma Smith said that Smith started translating with the Urim and Thummim and then eventually used his dark seer stone exclusively); Bushman (2005, p. 66) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFBushman2005 (help); Quinn (1998, pp. 169–70) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFQuinn1998 (help) (noting that, according to witnesses, Smith's early translation with the two-stone Urim and Thummim spectacles involved placing the spectacles in his hat, and that the spectacles were too large to actually wear).

And according to the text:

Later, however, he is said to have used a chocolate-colored stone he had found in 1822 that he had used previously for treasure hunting. Joseph Knight said that Smith saw the words of the translation while he gazed at the stone or stones in the bottom of his hat, excluding all light, a process similar to divining the location of treasure.

I don't have a problem with a photo showing what the plates supposedly looked like, and again as a compromise I'll offer the photo above, which I found here. Canstusdis (talk) 23:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, you seem to have missed the sentence in the text that says,

For at least some of the earliest dictation, Smith is said to have used the "Urim and Thummim", a pair of seer stones he said were buried with the plates.

So according to the article he is said to have used both the U&T and the brown stone. I suppose if we had a picture with the plates, the U&T, and the stone, that would be best. I have already given my reasons for wanting the dark picture: It's more professional, higher quality, shows the box, is in portrait orientation, and unlike the museum snapshot, it has an OTRS ticket from the craftsman who made them, meaning there are no copyright issues. Additionally, the U&T is partly in the shadow, and is not prominent in the picture. It's also a much more accurate depiction of the U&T than what we used to have in the article (a pair of glasses) and quite possibly the best one I've seen anywhere. Of course, one could argue that they never existed, and the same could be said of the plates, the angel, God, etc. but it's still helpful to have illustrations. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The picture is misleading and does not represent the facts. Adjwilley, please look again at what you quoted: ...a pair of seer stones he said were buried with the plates. I haven't seen anywhere a description of the U&T as a pair of glasses that J Smith put on his face. Here is what I have found:

In 1823, Smith said that an angel Moroni told him of the existence, with the plates, of "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, described them as crystal-like "two smooth three-cornered diamonds." Oliver Cowdery said the stones were "transparent". link

If you could find a reference where J Smith used the U&T as a pair of glasses in which he translated the plates (as suggested in the photo), and not as a pair of seer stones in the bottom of his hat (as it is descripted by all the witnesses), I'll withdraw my objection. Thanks. Canstusdis (talk) 01:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

You'll note that I never said they were glasses or that they were used that way. (The photo doesn't say anything about how translation was done either.) If you read the full quote from Lucy Mack, she says, two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows, which were connected with each other in much the same way as old fashioned spectacles. In another source (Largey) "William Smith said the spectacles were attached to the breastplate by a rod which was fastened at the outer shoulder edge of the breastplate…this rod was just the right length so that when the Urim and Thummim was removed from before the eyes it would reach to a pocket on the left side of the breastplate where the instrument was kept when not in use." (He also said it was too large and Joseph could only see through one stone at a time.) The stones themselves have been described as clear and white. If you look closely at the picture we're talking about you'll see it takes the compromise route (the stones are opaque). Anyway, nobody is saying that they were glasses, but lots of people say that they looked kind of like glasses, which is probably why when you looked at the picture you thought glasses, even though the idea was not suggested by anyone here. ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Although I think the photo is misleading and not representative of the facts I'll withdraw my objection, however I'd like to add the painting above that, according to witnesses, actually represents the way the plates were transcribed/translated by J Smith. Canstusdis (talk) 15:33, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Meh, whatever. I personally don't understand why the method itself is such a big deal. I don't think the picture is that great, but it's been in and out of the article before (it was removed a couple weeks ago, I think because the section was too crowded) and I expect it will be in and out in the future as well as people try to emphasize the bits they want emphasized. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:51, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the method is quite important. It's discussed in the article itself. That's why I have such an objection to the 'artistic representation' photo that doesn't accurately represent the primary sourced factual events. I understand why you'd object to such a poor quality portrayal of the multi-witnessed events and I'd be willing to go with something of better quality as long as it wasn't as much of a distortion as your fanciful first photo is. This is a Misplaced Pages article after all. Canstusdis (talk) 23:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Adjwilley, how about a response to this one above? Canstusdis (talk) 01:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• I was invited to comment here, but unfortunately am neither an expert on Joseph Smith nor pictures guidelines. Sorry. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Notice that I'm still the last one to comment here. Not sure why Adjwilley hasn't replied. I suppose he'd like for me to build consensus by myself?Canstusdis (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

@Canstusdis - if you still have overall concerns about the picture being misleading, you might consider editing the caption in some way. I don't have anything particular in mind - it might end up being too awkward to try to include a disclaimer like that in a caption, but it's an idea.

Also, I'm going to try to find another suitable picture for Carthage Jail somewhere online (when I get the chance), because truthfully I can't stand the one we put up - it's low-res and black and white. Blech. As I understand it, for a new image to gain consensus, it must

• Be historically accurate
• Portray Smith leaping/falling from the window / after he's hit the ground.
• Not look silly.
• Be in the public domain/ other acceptable license for Misplaced Pages to use.

Am I leaving anything out? Trevdna (talk) 23:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Historically accurate: that's the number one most important criteria. beyond that it's up to editor consensus. Canstusdis (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Again, waiting for a response. Isn't that how we're supposed to build consensus? Canstusdis (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

What specifically did you want responded to? I would disagree that the number one most important criteria is historical accuracy. Sure it's important, but there's lots of historically accurate stuff that don't belong in this article. As for the image, I thought we had consensus to go with the low quality mid-air image until something better was found. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

One or two stones...why is this a big deal?

There seems to be some disagreement over whether Smith used one or two stones to dictate the Book of Mormon, how to present this in an image caption, and how specific the wording should be. I am currently supporting a wording saying that according to some accounts he used the the single brown stone for much of it. (I want the more general wording to reflect disagreement I've found in the sources.) User:Canstusdis seems to support a wording that drops all reference to the U&T and implies that only the single brown stone was used. I guess the question I have is, why is this such a big deal? It wasn't a big deal to Joseph Smith, who used the two interchangeably. It wasn't a big deal to the scribes or his followers, some of whom took to calling other stones urim and thummims. It isn't a big deal to most of the biographers, none of whom make a statement as direct as the one Canstusdis seems to be trying to be putting in the caption (perhaps a sign of WP:OR). It's not a big deal to Mormons...whether one stone or two stones were used, they still think the Book of Mormon was inspired. And it's not a big deal to non-Mormons...who cares if any stones were used at all: the Book of Mormon was a fabrication, and it was probably a manuscript in the hat anyway. So the question remains, why is this such a big deal, why is is so important, and why does this need to be highlighted in an image caption? ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I have watched this develop and see it as verging on WP:LEW territory (not to suggest that editors are edit warring—but rather to suggest that the conflict is lame). I generally support the caption approach favoured by Adjwilley. There are indeed conflicts in sources on this issue, so it makes sense to simply state that the single brown stone was used for much of the translation. I don't understand why this has to be a matter of dispute. Good Ol’factory 23:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Lame.

There may well be 'conflicts in sources' but the overwhelming preponderance of the sources seem to suggest that Joseph Smith used his brown seer stone to translate the entire BOM. If not, how do you square Whitmer's statement that the Urim and Thummim were taken away by the angel after Smith lost the first 116 pages of manuscript? And Emma's, that states basically the same thing? Canstusdis (talk) 01:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with Good Ol'factory in favoring the the simpler caption which accommodates more of the various accounts. In my estimation, I don't think there is a preponderance of sources suggesting only the brown seer stone after the 116 pages. Note that both the Remini (pg 61-62) and the Bushman (pg 70-72) references being cited both mention that JS did have the Nephite Interpreters returned to him after losing the 116 pages so these sources don't really support the brown seer stone only claim. A source that I found interesting that mentions and sums up a lot of the conflicting accounts and does some analysis of them is the recent essay "The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat, and the Book: A Twenty-first Century Believer’s View of the Book of Mormon Translation" in the Interpreter (vol 5, pg 121-190). --FyzixFighter (talk) 02:25, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, since I don't have access to either of those books at the moment maybe you could at least post the quotes so we could discuss them? Thanks. Also, links to places that might help my understanding are welcome. Canstusdis (talk) 04:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry FyzixFighter, but the Interpreter article you suggested I read just confirmed what I've been saying all along. This from page 143:

In 1886, David Whitmer indicates that Joseph used his own seer stone to translate all of our current Book of Mormon text. In this interview, Whitmer states that the spectacles were never returned after the loss of the 116 pages and that a seer stone was presented to Joseph Smith for the purpose of continuing the translation.

By fervent prayer and by otherwise humbling himself, the prophet, however, again found favor, and was presented with a strange oval-shaped, chocolate-colored stone, about the size of an egg, only more flat, which, it was promised, should serve the same purpose as the missing urim and thummim (the latter was a pair of transparent stones set in a bow-shaped frame and very much resembled a pair of spectacles). With this stone all of the present Book of Mormon was translated.37

And This from page 146:

We have now established that there are multiple accounts from witnesses and Church sources confirming that Joseph switched from the spectacles or Nephite interpreters to a seer stone during the Book of Mormon translation process.

Page 168:

The image of Joseph translating using the stone and the hat does not match the picture that we typically have in our mind of Joseph looking at the plates through a pair of “spectacles,” while sitting behind a curtain. However, the use of the stone and the hat provides a distinct advantage in bolstering the claim that Joseph received the Book of Mormon text through revelation. The absence of a curtain during the latter part of the translation, during which the entire text of the Book of Mormon that we now have was produced, substantially weakens the critical argument that Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon by plagiarizing a number of other works. Instead of having Joseph obscured by a curtain or blanket, which could have hidden any number of reference materials, Joseph sat in the open, dictating the text of the Book of Mormon to Oliver while looking at the interpreter placed in his hat.

It appears Joseph Smith didn't use the U&T to interpret the BOM at all. Canstusdis (talk) 05:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

What official LDS website? If you are referring to Interpreter, it specifically states that the "Interpreter Foundation is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Bahooka (talk) 13:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. Please don't sidetrack this conversation. Thanks. Canstusdis (talk) 16:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to edit the caption to reflect the the Interpreter article. Let me know what you think. Canstusdis (talk) 16:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Wait for this discussion to play out before changing things. So far no one has voiced support for your approach. Give users a chance to respond to what you have written. Good Ol’factory 17:02, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

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