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Revision as of 16:00, 21 October 2013

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Liaison is Maggie Dennis.

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Excessive sitting impairing health

Template:Formerly

This is a big problem for Wikipedians. Count Iblis (talk) 17:29, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, Iblis, if you want to spend more time away from your PC then that would suit me just fine ;) - Sitush (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Pedestal desk. Tim AFS (talk) 00:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

My reply is in four parts.

(1) The proposed heading Excessive sitting impairing health is adequately brief and adequately informative.

• Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines

(2) It is possible to stand while using a computer.

• Ergonomics: Stand By Your Computer (Your Health May Depend on It) | Lateral Action

(3) A well-designed program of physical training can help an editor to edit efficiently and to participate calmly in discussions.

• Misplaced Pages:Ergonomics (red link now)

(4) Many modern economies are very dependent on automation.

• User:Wavelength/About society/Holistic economics

—Wavelength (talk) 04:47, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

My second reply has four parts.

(5) The United States National Library of Medicine has published information on measured sedentary time.

• Amount of Time Spent in Sedentary Behaviors in the United States, 2003–2004

(6) Joseph Mercola has published information on how to be active in the office.

• How to Stay Active in the Office | Working Tips

(7) Category:Ergonomics contains "Active sitting" and "Computer-induced medical problems" and "Kneeling chair" and "Riding-like sitting" and "Saddle chair".

(8) "Companies such as Google and Wikimedia have expressed serious concern and have since purchased the multi-award-winning Locus Workstation that was created by renowned designer Martin Keen, founder of Focal Upright Furniture." (underscore added)

• Sitting for 8 - 10 Hours a Day? Does Your Life Insurance Cover Your Sedentary Lifestyle?

—Wavelength (talk) 20:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I am revising the heading of this section from Don't spend more than two hours sitting in front of your television, computer or laptop per day to Excessive sitting impairing health, in harmony with WP:TPOC, point 12 (Section headings). The new heading facilitates recognition of the topic in links and watchlists and tables of contents.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I have started the page Misplaced Pages:Ergonomics. More can be added, about sleeping and napping and distractions and sounds and lighting and electromagnetic radiation.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I emailed this to a friend recently:

Misplaced Pages's article: Treadmill desk

general info:

Most FAQs mention: Start off just standing, for a few days/weeks. Build up very slowly, otherwise you might get lower-back/knee problems.

New Yorker article (excerpt), and related NPR interview (audio and transcript): ,

homemade solution:

other articles, and useful examples: , , ,

HTH. –Quiddity (talk) 21:30, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

This reply has four parts.

• ("HTH" means " hope this helps.") Yes, that helps, and I thank you.
• YouTube reports about 22,200 results for treadmill desk.
• I am interested in the effects on perspiration and body odor.
• I am planning to post (at Misplaced Pages talk:Ergonomics) a link to the archive of this discussion, because I or someone else can use the links in this discussion to expand and improve Misplaced Pages:Ergonomics in the future.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of Boyzone articles

Dear Jimbo Wales

Can you have a word with this user: https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Kww

He has deleted BZ20 and Love will save the day and in the past other boyzone tour articles. He is ruining boyzones information wikipedia. I understand he has authority on wikipedia and several people have contacted him but he seems to think he is above the law. A big problem he has is getting confused with a user who used to disrupt Boyzone articles called user 'pesf' and when people he doesn't recognise edit the boyzone articles he closes their accounts claiming them to be a sock puppet of pesf which is untrue. Please stop this user from disrupting the articles and make the BZ20 and Love will save the day articles on the Boyzone pages.

Kind Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musictool (talk • contribs) 13:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I encourage you to read WP:NCONCERT, as the tours cannot have pages unless they're documented by reliable sources that are independent of the subject. ZappaOMati 13:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

How do you know that the other users are not "pesf"? Do you know many of those other users? Regards, Iselilja (talk) 14:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• Well, User:Musictool, I think this situation can be resolved within a few days, and independent sources can be found to show the Boyzone topics have notability for the new BZ20 album, but the song "Love Will Save the Day" might need to be a redirect to the album, at first. We have found user Kww to be reasonable, and I think will allow recreation of those pages, but perhaps under wp:AFC due to the prior problems with a banned user. Please understand once a page is embroiled over controversies with blocked/banned users, then the writing of the article becomes a much slower, tedious process requiring days to write, where formerly a few hours would have made similar progress. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think that I am confused at all. The last two users I blocked, Boy2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Boy2014 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), were certainly illegitimate alternates of each other, and are about 99% certain to be Pesf. The Boyzone articles have been plagued by serial socking for a long time, and it's probable that Musictool is just another one of these socks.—Kww(talk) 14:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

You have over numerous times deleted boyzone articles for no good reason, you cannot delete peoples accounts who were not doing any damage. The least i would like to be done is for the Love will save the day and BZ20 albums to be made and in future block the user but don't delete the pages which has taken a long time to create. I have also noted that you KWW have deleted referenced information from the Boyzone article history. Musictool (talk) 15:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

If a page has been created by a blocked user, I will invariably delete it. That's the point, Pesf: you are blocked. You have been blocked dozens of times. That's a way of telling you to go away. Is there some part of "go away" that you have failed to understand? I will note for the record that one of your more recent socks, Boy2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), was not blocked by me: it was blocked by Kuru, who blocked you for disruptive editing and BLP violations. He didn't even recognise that it was just you again. Now please go away.—Kww(talk) 15:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Kww, I suggest unless you present your evidence for this to be a sockpuppet that you cease and desist from referring to editors by another user name. Whereas Wikid has given you AGF for being a reasonable person, I will not given some questionable history of your own. And now- que personal attack about MY history as opposed to any mention of proof regarding "sockpuppetry", I hope you take the high road and prove me wrong, I'll apologize. However, I shouldn't have to goad you and trap you in this manner to force you to show evidence after the fact; you really should be more mature than using one editor name for another with no evidence shown.Camelbinky (talk) 18:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The contribution history is sufficient evidence, Camelbinky. It's not a sign of immaturity to recognize an obvious sock. Did you bother to examine Pesf's contribution history and writing style and compare it to Musictool, Boy2013, and Boy2014 before making a contribution here? Or maybe scan Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Pesf/Archive to see if any obvious patterns become apparent to you?—Kww(talk) 18:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Is this about the visual editor again? John lilburne (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Kww, the last sock reported was on June 19, 2012. Shouldn't these accounts be reported to SPI rather than automatically blocked indefinitely? The process exists for a purpose. If you were right, it should be easy to prove you were. Liz 21:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

SPI is a process for editors to gain attention from administrators and checkusers. SPI isn't required (or even recommended) for obvious socks. SPI would go into immediate overload if every sock was taken through SPI, Liz. I process them directly, sometimes because I notice them, and sometimes because other editors that know I'm familiar with a particular sockmaster report them directly to me.—Kww(talk) 21:35, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes. SPI does indeed exist for a purpose, or to be more precise for two purposes: (1) for an editor who sees that there is reason to believe there is sockpuppetry, but is not an administrator and so can't deal with it to ask for admin help, and (2) for an admin who thinks there is evidence of sockpuppetry, but thinks there is some doubt to ask for either further opinions to help decide, or checkuser evidence, or both. There is always a backlog of SPI cases waiting to be dealt with as it is, and the whole system would break down if we started requiring admins to put every case through SPI, even perfectly obvious ones. Also, there is a good reason for not giving full explanation of all the evidence, namely that doing so would tell the sockpuppeteers how to avoid giving themselves away if they go on to create further sockpuppets. Finally, in this case it is totally unnecessary to say what the evidence is, because it is perfectly visible in the editing history. JamesBWatson (talk) 21:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, just so I'm 100% clear. Will any account that is a fan, a SPA, for this boy band, will they be assumed to be a sock, too? Of course, I don't want the SPI system to crash. But the only way that these accounts seem to be the same individual is they edit the same articles. So, what is to distinguish a non-sock Boy Zone fan from a sock one? I don't for one minute doubt you have a great deal of Admin experience, I'm just AGF of new accounts that might want to edit these articles. Thanks for the information. Liz 22:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

No, not every new editor who shows up at that article will be blocked on sight. But people are habitual creatures, and long-time editors who deal in topic areas habituated by socks and single-purpose accounts will pick up on people's tendencies...similar language, tone, the nature of what is being added, etc... If Grundle2600 shows up in a Barack Obama-related article, I and several others can spot him a mile away, for example. Tarc (talk) 22:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, for example, I've recently had multiple brand new accounts come to my talk page to try to get an article on a very obscure 16-year-old Indian programmer undeleted. If a legitimate new account decided to create an article on this kid, they'd probably get blocked per the WP:DUCK test, but it's not too likely a lot of unrelated accounts will come along to do that. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:35, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Tarc & Mark. I realize that after a few years, socks and trolls become easier to spot and you both have more experience than I do. But I also think that when one watches a topic, looking for violations, it's likely one will find them. When one is on the look out for socks, every new user is scrutinized in a way that doesn't happen normally.

My thinking goes this way: A false negative just means that a sock or troll continues to post for a while until their intentions become evident to all. But a false positive results in a new Editor receiving an indefinite block, out of the blue. Being trigger-happy (and I've seen new Editors indefinitely blocked after two edits), might prevent vandalism but could also be driving away inexperienced users. It takes more than a few days (or few weeks, or a few months!) before one achieves "competency" in editing Misplaced Pages. I think one should not assume malice when it's really just a user who is new and makes mistakes.

Sorry for being preachy. It's just for the long-term vitality of WP, I think Editor retention outweighs potential vandalism. IMHO. Liz 16:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I think you're taking a very narrow approach to editor retention. "False-negatives" are not as harmless as you've suggested. It's important to recognize that by allowing abusive sockpuppetry, we're hurting editor retention. Good editors quit all the time because they get tired of dealing with abusive sockpuppetry.

I don't know whether you've ever tried to edit an article in the face of coordinated sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. I don't know whether you've ever had the experience of arguing a content point with an editor/editors, only to discover after weeks or months of dispiriting discussion that the editor is a sockpuppet of a previously banned editor. These experiences are intensely frustrating. We lose good editors because we don't handle sockpuppetry effectively. All the time.

And more insidiously, the good editors who stay become reluctant to touch certain topic areas or articles, because they're infested by sockpuppets and whenever anyone tries to address the situation they're told to "AGF". There is an editor-retention issue here, but I don't think it's the one you've outlined. MastCell  18:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

MastCell, no, I don't know what it's like to battle a sock puppet but I read over the Rupert Sheldrake Talk Page and I think I see socks arguing on both sides of the issue. It makes me dizzy trying to follow a thread of conversation.

But while I might have a narrow approach, I think you are overstating how big a sock problem WP has. This is because that, for the Editors who fight vandalism, they see bad behavior every time they log on to WP because, well, they go out looking for it. When you're constantly swatting flies, it's easy to think that the whole world is full of flies. But I'd guess that 00.001% of Wikipedians are involved in fighting vandalism. I'd guess most Editors rarely encounter it unless they choose to edit in contentious topical areas.

And while I don't have the data to back up that claim, you don't have evidence that good editors have quit WP because of sockpuppetry. I imagine you can think of one or two examples but considering the tens of thousands of editors at WP, that is a drop in the bucket. Liz 19:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

00.001% of tens of thousands of editors is less than one editor. -- ToE 13:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

By my calculator, 00.001% of 10,000 editors is 10. 00.001% of 100,000 editors is 100. But that doesn't seem big enough so I'll change my guesstimate to 00.01%. Liz 15:47, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe that you are confusing percentages and decimal fractions. The % sign represents a factor of 0.01, so 10% is 10 * 0.01 = 0.1 and 0.001% is 0.001 * 0.01 = 0.00001. Thus your 00.001% of 10,000 editors is 0.001 * 0.01 * 10,000 editors = 0.00001 * 10,000 editors = 0.1 editor. -- ToE 20:15, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

• No, they won't. Boy2013 nearly got past me, and it wasn't until Boy2014 came along that I was convinced. I'm not going to publicly explain what Boy2014 did that was so compelling, but he had a couple of behaviours that identified him as Pesf that went beyond editing Boyzone articles, as did Musictool. Of course, once he was confirmed, connecting the dots between Boy2014 and Boy2013 was trivial.—Kww(talk) 23:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I once caught a sock puppet on my talk page. I was pretty sure it was a sock but kept engaging the two different accounts until they slipped up and replied to a question to one user without logging out from the one account to log into the other and replied as the other persona on the wrong account. Since it was obvious to everyone reading the page as well as the admin, it didn't need an SPI report. Ever since then I tend to attempt to engage both users I suspect as socks at the same time and watch how they respond. I figure if it worked by accident maybe it can work on purpose?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

As long as you're not so focused on catching suspected sockpuppets that you forget about the articles. If an addition is made, its from a RS that can be checked, then its a positive for the article (and, if it displays a less than NPOV, then edit to clarify). This phrase 'If a page has been created by a blocked user, I will invariably delete it' may reflect policy but if the info is kosher its an epic fail for Misplaced Pages. IMHO, zealotry in pursuing real or imagined socks shouldn't be allowed to detract from reasonable, verifiable and legitimate content, no matter how it got there. AnonNep (talk) 00:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Then why are all these blocks and bans still in place? That is implying that the blocking and banning policies are completely worthless - which they may well be, given how much the community in general allows such people to waltz right back in and do whatever they please. See User:Ryan kirkpatrick. User:Grundle2600 and many others as prime examples of this. --MuZemike 05:11, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

No idea. I find the quick-to-reach-for the block and ban-hammer negative and counter to the creation of a positive content-focused culture. How to roll it back? That's the hard question. AnonNep (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm just a little concerned that in the above conversation there are regular editors who don't appear to be able to recognise obvious socks. Seriously people, look a bit harder. Black Kite (talk) 00:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Not every regular Editor needs to be able to identify socks, Black Kite. Lots of users work on content and in areas that don't involve preventing vandalism. In fact, it's probably best if people who are skilled in identifying socks be the ones imposing blocks since a wrong identification results in an innocent Editor being blocked. It seems like the activity for a specialist, not a generalist. Liz 16:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

In response to the earlier msg and the above, I'd wager that the number of genuinely new editors who get caught in a mistaken-for-a-returning-sock is vanishingly small. Know what's a good test? See if they post anything on their talk page after the block. 99% of the time there are no follow-ip posts, no unblock requests of any sort since they know the gig's up. Tarc (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, I can only speak for myself but I first registered an account in 2007 and have edited on and off ever since (mostly logged out). But it is only since this summer, since I immersed myself in WP, that I even learned there is a MOS or what a noticeboard is. I have seen many block notices that never say how a block can be appealed! And in the case of socks, I don't think I've ever seen an instance when Talk Page access wasn't taken away. How is a new user supposed to know that they even can appeal, much less how?

So, you know what happens? A new editor comes in, makes some questionable edits--because they don't know what they are doing--and gets blocked for whatever reason (and it sometimes doesn't take much) for any length of time. What do they do? They create another account since the old one doesn't work any more and they don't know why because they don't realize that communication happens on this thing called a Talk Page (they may not even know they have a User Page). So, they return to work editing the articles they are interested in and if some astute Admin recognizes them from their previous account, then they are labeled a "sock" and receive an indefinite block. No appeal. So, what do they do when they find out that they can't log into this new account? Well, just forget it, they'll edit logged out. But once a user is labeled a "sock", there is no way they can participate on Misplaced Pages again without getting blocked. I have not seen any way that once a Editor receives a label like "troll" or "sock" or "puppet" or "disruptive" that it is ever possible to lose this label.

I think there is a major blind spot for long-time Editors and Admins that they assume all casual Editors have the same knowledge that they do...that they will know where to go for help, find answers or policies, file a complaint, or appeal a ban. They don't know all of this and without a direct link posted by a friendly and helpful fellow Editor, it's unlikely they'll stumble upon it. But, luckily, there are users who post welcome notices and give suggestions and warnings or engage new Editors on the Talk Pages of the articles they edit. I think a personalized gesture of help is responsible for more users becoming regular Editors than any other aspect of Misplaced Pages behavior. I know I remember the users who were kind to me when I was just learning the ropes. Liz 19:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Liz, the message a blocked editor receives automatically when they try to edit gives them instructions on how to appeal a block. The message in the block notice left on the talk page serves only to explain the reason.—Kww(talk) 21:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Good to know, Kww, thanks! Liz 00:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem Liz describes seems worth to address. There may be many clueless editors who come to edit WP assuming "anyone can edit", but are not aware of talk page, user talk page etc. I think, the requirement of registering email should be made mandatory and if a new user messes up something. They can be sent a polite short email (in addition to talk page notice), which I am sure there are more chance of them reading it then a warning on the talk page.--Vigyani_talk 03:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:PERRENIAL#Prohibit_anonymous_users_from_editing. We'd lose far, far more editors that way than we do with blocking editors who can't seem to find a talk page. Even editors who register can be reluctant to provide an email address. --NeilN 16:18, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

NeilN, although I first registered an account in 2007, I rarely logged in. Until July 2013, I normally edited as an IP editor, I wasn't interested in keeping track of the typos I fixed or dressing up a User Page. So, I get a little upset when registered users assume IPs are irresponsible vandals and, if they stir things up, they should be blocked for being disruptive. Now that I am registered again (mainly because I had to to participate in some Wiki activities), I still would never post an email address on my account. Every time there are mandatory requirements imposed, you'll lose casual Editors who are happy to do minor fixes but don't want to create another website-specific account. It might just take a few minutes to do, but it's still a hassle that some Editors won't want to bother with. Liz 19:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that. I myself do not use some website due to requirement of creating website-specific account.--Vigyani_talk 10:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Can someone do something about this user https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Kww He has deleted https://en.wikipedia.org/BZ20:_Anniversary_Album and https://en.wikipedia.org/Love_will_save_the_day article already twice. He is abusing his privilege and deleting every boyzone article. He is very rude and he is ruining wikipedia. Every new user who makes a new page for Boyzone he deletes. So kww are you going to to delete the articles everytime they are created? How dare you abuse your power when you should be doing good you are doing bad. I would like people to look out for this user. So are you telling me these pages about the new Boyzone album and Single due for release in November 2013 don't merit space on wikipedia? You are ridiculous and you are destroying wikipedia. I and many people are annoyed that these pages have already been removed twice by you and i am sure if they are created again you will delete it, you are a horrible person. I and many people want these pages created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.17.230.244 (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion for clarity of authorship in an info box

The disgraceful state of Misplaced Pages

I full expect for some admin or even Jimbo to delete this because they just don't want to hear it. But I am going to say it anyway for those that actually care about the future of the project.

For some time now it has been apparent that Misplaced Pages has fallen into a disreputable state. When the project first started and for several years after people participated in a meaningful project and they felt happy to volunteer their time. Today however things are much different. Editors and admins leave in droves. New editors are run off or don't bother with the project at all. The WMF themselves don't trust the editors here and that was evidenced by the Visual Editor release and followon discussions. The community doesn't trust the WMF for the same reasons. Editors who attempt to help are told to go away in one way or another and that their help isn't wanted or appreciated. That includes active long term editors.

Jimbo, its time for you and the WMF to get your act together and fix this place. Stop ignoring all the problems, start enforcing the rules fairly and stop playing favorites. Stop allowing the admins to do whatever they want without impunity. Put an end to the us and them mentality between editors and admins, the abuses and the croniism and protectionism. Stop protecting all the content and blocking every IP and start trusting editors again. Stop the WMF from releasing broken, unreliable and untested software on the community and forcing the community to clean up the mess. If you do even some of these things, Misplaced Pages editing will pick back up again. Not right away, but they will. People will enjoy editing again. As it is the project is doomed to failure because the community can't fix it and you and the WMF refuse to admit there is even a problem. Act now before Misplaced Pages becomes the next MySpace and is nothing more than a memory. There is a lot more but since this will just be deleted or closed by someone I'll leave it there. --Just another worthless IP editor! 138.162.8.59 (talk) 18:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

See new: wp:Template editors, a massive improvement which allows dozens of users to make widespread improvements in hundreds of templates. -Wikid77 20:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Just about every group I've been involved with has members who pine for the "good ol' days". In just about every case, they identify a problem, such as editors leaving, which is in fact, a problem, but they leave the impression that it is a recent problem, as opposed to a perennial one, and spout vague generalities on how to solve it. Do you honestly think Jimbo is sitting around twiddling his thumbs, thinking to himself "I know exactly how to solve all problems, but will no one urge me to do something? That's all I ask, can someone please tell me it is time to fix the problems?" --SPhilbrick(Talk) 18:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I think if Jimbo or the WMF wanted to do something and believed it was a problem, they would do something. However, they give the impression that they can't be bothered by the petty problems of the community and couldn't possibly get involved. Yes they can and should, given that the community has repeatedly failed to fix any of these problems. Admins continue to abuse their tools and no one does anything. Sometimes even justifying the abuse. The WMF routinely releases broken software without doing even basic testing in a proper test environment. Editor assholery is on the rise all around the project as edits, editors and collaboration are in steep decline. Editors that do offer to help are told to go away, or told they can't be trusted, or etc., etc. There are serious problems throughout the project and those that notice and try and fix it are accused of trolling, told they are just being dramatic or being DIVA's. Some are even blocked. And we wonder why editing is down and the editing environment here is so miserable? Jimbo himself has acknowledged several of these are problems in the past and has stated he would look into them or do something about them. We are still waiting. So either he doesn't care, or he is simply too busy to get involved and doesn't really care what happens. Much the way many of us feel these days. 138.162.8.57 (talk) 19:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Every attempt at top-down problem-solving on Misplaced Pages is immediately shot down by "the community" as a usurpation of its authority. Then, when the problem persists, "the community" complains about the lack of top-down problem-solving. This pattern existed back in the notional "good old days", although it's worse now because we've waged a gradual war of attrition against our sane, clueful subset of contributors. MastCell  19:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Attempts at top-down problem-solving on Misplaced Pages are not 'immediately shot down by "the community" as a usurpation of its authority'. They are shot down by the admins and admin wannabees that habituate the drama boards as a usurpation of admin authority. It is the admins and drama board inhabitants that control the scope and powers assigned to the admins. The result now is hundreds of admins, including some thoroughly unsuitable admins, wielding draconic powers over the people who try to build the encyclopaedia. Bizarrely, these people are appointed for life. Admins are desopped only if they do something that offends other admins. No admin, in the history of Misplaced Pages, has been desopped for uncivil behaviour towards content editors. That fact alone highlights the miserable status of the people who actually write Misplaced Pages. No change that is not in the direction of tightening the admin stranglehold is now possible, and most admins seem very happy with the situation. Misplaced Pages is slowly grinding to dust in the blaze of admins mutually preening each other. --Epipelagic (talk) 03:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

"No admin, in the history of Misplaced Pages, has been desopped for uncivil behaviour towards content editors." User:Ironholds was desysopped for that exact reason as recently as this August in Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds/Proposed decision#Proposed remedies. 07:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

That's partly true. Its also true, though unfortunate, that the community is incapable of changing it themselves. Nearly countless discussions and RFC's are a testemant to that failure. Its also true that allowing the WMF to act is bad, but the community is all but forcing that outcome by its ongoing incompetence and failure to act. These problems need to be addressed. So IMO, the community can either take action on these problems and begin fixing them or they can sit down and shut up when the WMF steps in and does it for them. Which IMO should include some WMF oversight of the Admin cadre running around here. There are a lot of good admins, most in fact, but its a handful of strong armed A-holes that are giving the other 1380 a bad image. People turn down RFA's for the very same reasons they allow these admins to get away with. If they aren't going to take the tools away from an admin that does the same things, then they shouldn't tell a user they can't have access to the tools for that reason. Its really just common sense. Of course there is a very long list of problems here in the project and nothing will fix them all. But if someone doesn't do something, a future article is going to be on The history of Misplaced Pages (past tense). I don't doubt a lot of people just think I am full of shit writing this and don't think there is a problem. But I don't agree and I felt it was time to be vocal about fixing it.....again. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 20:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

138.162.8.59, I agree that there are problems at Misplaced Pages. But I spent a fair amount of the summer going back into archives and reading old ARBCOM cases and archived Talk Pages and noticeboards and, you know what? Editors were always complaining that WP wasn't as good as it used to be...I saw it in comments and remarks from 2005, 2008, 2010, 2011 and now 2013. And I kind of doubt that the years from 2001-2004 were perfect either. The real WP is always going to be far less than the ideal WP and conditions are never as exciting as when a user first starts seriously editing articles.

That doesn't undermine your real assessments that there are problems that are being ignored that WMF needs to look at. But it puts into perspective, that there will always be Editors leaving (for a variety of reasons) and, remarkably, every day, new people create accounts. It may not be at the same levels at 2005-2007 but it still happens.

But like any organization, especially one with over 200 wiki projects, the problems and answers are never simple, there is no magic pill. But, I agree with you that a starting point is one of mutual respect and to treat Editors with questions as being part of the solution, not part of the problem. Liz 20:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

A possible way out could be to create a copy of Misplaced Pages that would initially have the same content but which operates according to different rules, basically a beta version of Misplaced Pages. The community then decides the rules for the beta version, but they are then more likely to approve suggestions to be tested in the beta version rather than implemented right away. Count Iblis (talk) 20:22, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I disagree there is "no magic pill". Put the top 10-12 content editors in charge (elected by the community). Of maintenance, policy, growth. Then watch all these problems melt away as if by magic. (The top 10-12 writer-editors already know what the problems are, and what the solutions are. Their vast combined experience and investments in time & heart would disallow them from doing anything other than what's best for articles, readers, editors. That group would be too intelligent to let egotistic battles interfere with their responsibility due to an over-riding love of the encyclopedia. Given time they'd work out best possible ways forward.) They're an untapped resource. Put 'em in charge and watch the WP reach its true great potential. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 07:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Another comment on so-called "golden ages." I wasn't around when Misplaced Pages started, but it always surprises me when people talk this way because I seriously doubt these ages were actually perfect or ideal in any real sense of the term. They were certainly different, and had different challenges. Editors were certainly signing up left and right, and I'm sure many were enthusiastic about participating, but that doesn't mean the problems went away. If we look back at the RfCs about Misplaced Pages in 2005, what I see are accusations about ArbCom failing to do their job, edit-warring over WP:IAR and WP:BEBOLD, and complaining about anonymous editors. Does that sound like any kind of "golden age" to anyone? There certainly isn't any way to make the current community and structure of Misplaced Pages more like it was before (I'm not even sure what this would even mean). I'm still happy to volunteer my time here because I think this project, even with its current challenges and flaws, is a net positive for the world, and I'm sure many would agree with me. I, JethroBT 20:25, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely. To argue by analogy: Among National Hockey League fans of a certain age, there is a common group complaint about how poor the game has become relative to the "golden age" of the 1980s. Most often, they complain about how the modern NHL is much less offensively-minded than the 1980s league was. There are many arguments put forward as to why, but a dilution of talent is most often blamed. The irony is that in truth, the talent level has massively increased. But so has systems play. Coaching has improved. Training regimens are light years beyond that of 25 years ago. New styles have been adopted. Cumulatively, this has resulted in an NHL that is quite likely at its all-time peak for overall skill. And yet, people reminisce about the "good old days" because hockey is a game of mistakes. Better players make fewer mistakes and that means fewer goals. I grew up on teh 0s NHL, but looking back, the product simply can't stand up to today. I find that Misplaced Pages is much the same. The free-for-all days of 2005 are gone. Time and necessity have simply made editing more difficult because we needed to become less tolerant of vandalism and unreferenced content. Because there are fewer unexplored topics to mass create articles in. Because of increased requirements on sourcing. As a result, the average editor today has to be more skilled than in the past. And that, naturally, will force out those who could not keep up, or those who aren't patient enough to learn and adapt. Resolute 22:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't place content limits on you, you chose to do that by narrowing the topics you're willing to create content in. 'Because there are fewer unexplored topics to mass create articles in'. Take your preferred topic, go back to the early 1900s or 1800s, where opportunities and (oddly enough, because of online newspaper archive programs) sources a plenty, and new creation options, are there. You don't have to do it. But that isn't a limit of Misplaced Pages. AnonNep (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

LOL! I love the irony of this, because one of my more common editing areas has been early hockey history topics, researched by and large through news archives. You have no idea how many hours I spent in front of microfilm readers to research what may well be the most comprehensive history of the Calgary Tigers in the world.  ;) As to your central point, I will continue with my NHL analogy. When I started here, less than half of the players in NHL history had articles. Today, every one does, right back to the league's 1917 founding. I created our structure for team-season articles. As a group, we spun out a well defined structure of lists for each NHL team. Man, it really was the glory days. Creation is easy, but in terms of editing articles related to the NHL, that low hanging fruit has been picked. I've created over 300 articles in my time, but probably less than a dozen in the last three years because editing in my topic area has come to require a higher level of skill. I've moved from being a page creator to a featured content writer. Look to your own advice, and consider that you are telling me to go look to the obscure. I don't disagree with your suggestion on its face, because you are right that Misplaced Pages itself is still missing several mass topic areas. However, those topics are likewise growing increasingly obscure. They often require esoteric interests and a heightened desire and willingness to research. Resolute 23:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Where's the LOL!? Did you expect me to stalk you before I replied or take you on face value? The idea that Misplaced Pages is near complete and is only missing 'several mass topic areas' with the rest being 'increasingly obscure'. Well, I'd leave that to uninvolved observers to decide. But I certainly don't believe that inclusion has been achieved, in terms of notability guidelines, outside of the broader age-range of editors, or in high-interest topic areas. Or is this just another way of saying 'Go away, stop causing trouble, it works for us, we've got this, we don't need you here'? AnonNep (talk) 23:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't expect you to stalk my edits. Your assumptions were fair and logical. I simply am one of the few people who already routinely do that sort of research. I meant no offence, was just enjoying that aspect of it. Also, I never said Misplaced Pages was "near complete". I said there are fewer avenues to mass create articles. Expansion and improvement are entirely different stories. And your conclusion is rather bizarre to me, because I don't see how that is a logical reading of my arguments. My point is that a confluence of factors, only one of which you seem to have focused on, has made it more difficult to edit Misplaced Pages. An average editor in 2013 requires more skills than an average editor in 2005 did. Resolute 00:20, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Not too sure what's 'bizarre'. The most obvious articles may be developed but there's a huge backlog, that meets notability, that hasn't been touched. One example: the (non BLP) Australian Dictionary of Biography]. The same skills that were needed in 2005 are needed, en mass, to complete these, (and its not the only similar project to-do list). That's probably where we'll disagree. AnonNep (talk) 00:32, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

• Renaissance of interest, empowered by template-editors and Lua: I noted months ago, there has been a strange phenomenon this year: several editors are re-asking for crucial improvements which were requested and abandoned years ago, such as adjusting the size of some over-large nation flag icons, which were finally fixed this year. It seems the problem has been the prior tedious workload to debug and test templates, Javascript wp:gadgets or wp:user scripts, and now Lua script modules. A handful of dedicated tech-admins have been installing or updating hundreds of technical changes to templates, or tools, but hundreds more updates were needed. Now, finally, with the new authorization of wp:Template editors and resetting protection levels on templates which they can edit, there has been a massive offering of support to fix templates, which can free extra time for the tech-admins to work on more Javascript gadgets or more Lua modules. Even while the RfC proposal to create the new template-editor right was being debated, the "renaissance" editors have continued to re-ask for even more improvements which were suggested years ago. Also remember, the Lua-based wp:CS1 cite templates and Lua-based infoboxes have allowed users to edit-preview (or reformat) major articles 3x-4x times faster than during the prior 3 years (I can personally confirm the massive 300% speed improvement from updating the Lua Module:Citation/CS1 to run 13x faster). A huge door has finally opened to fixing major bugs, and writing clever new tools to help users improve the articles much faster. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

  'Clever new tools' are sometimes the problem. While I support Template editors being given 'Admin tools' for protected templates, the changes can ripple on. For example, a decision to remove 'Influences/Influenced by' in the Author 'infobox' means that every article that footnoted the 'Influences/Influenced by' as the first named link showed an error in the reflist and was included in Category:Pages with broken reference names. Tools and bots serve their purpose but have nothing on human editing and so much of the automated edits seems to result in a delete of wiki content rather taking that extra time to check sources and re-phrase as needed. Those 'tools', in the hands of Admins, or as autos for editors, or bots, bring their own problems and aren't the magic way forward. AnonNep (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

NB. Should add - its a general problem for infoboxes. Because that's where the first source is often added, and named, when a category is removed from an info box, not only is the content lost but anything using that name="" as a source is read as an error and has to be corrected. Not just specific to 'author' infoboxes. AnonNep (talk) 21:21, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, the tools can be misused: a hammer can bend a nail or wire snips can cut a wire too short, but try to build a fence without a hammer or wire cutters. Too many people forgot which tools are needed to simplify work. An automobile in need of repairs needs more than a paintbrush to visually-edit the surface of the car, much more. -Wikid77 22:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

But without that initial content all the tools in the world won't help you. That's why so many appear so negative - they're about editing (deleting) what's already there not about the hard grind of building the car in the first place. AnonNep (talk) 22:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Be careful with such generalizations. Many users, like myself, are more comfortable with organizing, expanding, improving, and fine-tuning what is already out there than creating new articles all the time (not to say that I don't do the latter, it's just not that often). The former requires collaboration, which is what we should be about. --MuZemike 23:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It was responding to the analogy (& generalisation) of the previous poster. AnonNep (talk) 00:02, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

BTW, not too sure where you got the idea content creation isn't about collaboration. That's certainly not my view. AnonNep (talk) 00:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Let me clarify that content creation doesn't imply lack of collaboration. You certainly can invite additional collaboration by creating new content or expanding on old content. The point I'm trying to make is that all content can be modified by others – that's part of our CC-BY-SA license! There are also some common sense and community norms that we're expected to follow. Some people are inclined to create, others are inclined to maintain and edit, etc. --MuZemike 00:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree. Going back to the original topic, I feel that a balance between adding content (creation/collaboration/expanding/editing) seems to losing a battle against a negative culture of deletion of articles, auto patrol (usually for delete) & bot-based deletion, editor blocks and bans. I don't like the later, accept it is often justified, but feel the balance is increasingly tipping towards that negative with little in the way of change/proposed-change to stop that occurring. AnonNep (talk) 00:48, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Jesus Kumioko. Are you retired or aren't you? And if you are, why don't you go out and enjoy life? Resolute 22:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

And that is the way to cooperate and discuss in WP: tell them to shut up and go away! No sir, nothing wrong in here, nothing at all... - Nabla (talk) 17:46, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

@Resolute, believe it or not, not every IP that posts about Misplaced Pages being a cesspool and it needing to be changed is me in disguise. I realize that I am just an untrustworthy loser in the eyes of many and that AGF is all but a memory these days but I didn't know or care about this discussion until I got an email notification that you had mentioned me here. With that said, I do agree with the IP in most respects. As for my retirement, that was due largely to the actions of the WMF with Visual editor (so until they can unscrew that disgrace I wouldn't want them to touch a thing), the communities desire to destroy WikiProject United States rather than help build it as a collaboration and due to the communities desire for me to not participate. I would also note that as much as you despise me we actually have a lot in common. We are both experienced Wikipedians with a lot of knowledge about the project, we can both by DICKs and we have both pissed off a lot of editors. What differs between us though is that you are an admin and have been since they gave it out to anyone who asked whereas I waited too long when they were getting more strict. If you reran in today's environment (along with a good number of other admins BTW) you probably wouldn't pass either. That's part of the problem here adn why admin abuse is so rampant. We can get rid of the buggers once they build a nest. Another area where we differ is that where you see things are wrong with the site you do nothing and I speak up...fervently. You can say I am a dick, but you can't say I didn't try to make things better. In real life I am the person that makes things happen, I take charge. You strike me as the kind of person I lead in real life. Smart,educated and experienced but no drive and no desire to change things and make them better. Just a hider and slider. I say that so that you know, when you start talking trash about me retiring or trying to actively change this shitty editing environment, that it irritates me and at the same time I know that IRL I would probably be your boss. But here, your king shit. What's also funny is that it used to bother me. But somewhere along the way I realized that I am extremely successful IRL. I have a good job, a nice house, nice things and cars and a great family. Whereas a lot of the "leadership" admins here are jobless, homeless and/or worthless IRL. So that is why it doesn't interest me to be here anymore. I really enjoy a lot of the friends I have made on here and there are a lot of great people, but unfortunately the not so great ones are leading things here. Here you can't get promoted unless you hide and slide. If they can't succeed in life what makes people think they will lead this place to be anything other than a disaster? Kumioko (talk) 01:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko, the best advice I can give you at this point is to stop pretending that your repetitive complaints are socially redeeming, go write some articles for six months or so, and apply for the template editor user right. Whether or not you're willing to admit it in public, you know you can't stay from here for more than a week or so. Why not do something that will make editing here more pleasant for you in the long term, rather than the little junkie-like fixes of pleasure you get from attacking the people you don't like? I think many people who wouldn't necessarily support you as an admin would support you as a template editor, which is what you really want to do, especially if you'd been doing something concrete to improve the encyclopedia. Choess (talk) 03:12, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

'socially redeeming', 'little junkie-like fixes of pleasure' ... has there has been a secret committee that has decided its o.k. to stick the knife into this editor? AnonNep (talk) 03:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

His RfAs are probably the best starting point to see that the knife wounds are self-inflicted; no committee required. You undoubtedly think I'm being a dick to Kumioko, probably out of pure cussedness. But in fact it's very sound advice, and if I'm delivering it roughly, it's because I don't have much confidence in a more subtle approach being heard. Right now, he's very bitter about Misplaced Pages, because he can't pass RfA and do what he really wants to, which is edit templates, and because of the implosion of the all-encompassing WikiProject United States. He's doubly unfortunate because he can't let go: he regularly announces that he's sick of Misplaced Pages (which I don't doubt) and is retiring...only to find that he can't resist the urge to come back, and a few days later he's posting as an IP, predicting that Misplaced Pages is doomed! because he's unhappy. If he can't quit, it seems to me the sensible thing to do is try to improve his long-term happiness as an editor. I think getting the template editor userright, now that it exists, is a realistic goal for him in a way that RfA isn't, but getting there means he would have to do something besides "raising awareness" of his grievances. I second Tim: I like Kumioko, and he could be an asset to the encyclopedia, but lately we've mostly gotten Kumioko's anger and grief posting. I miss the Kumioko who was interested in military history and liked experimenting with complex templates. But I don't know how to get him to look up from his own bitterness and do the things that might help him heal it. Choess (talk) 11:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

The only reason I commented here at all is because of the notification of Resolute's shitty comment. I don't think you hate me and I am not the least bit bothered by your comments. What it does show me though is that you don't see or don't agree that there are serious problems with the culture and processes of Misplaced Pages. Where we have people who get the tools and are allowed to abuse other editors, violate policy and get to do whatever they want. But other editors like me, who try and change the bad processes are untrusted, unneeded editors. The only thing that irritates me is that you just think its an anger and grief posting. But that's ok, because after years of being told I am untrustworthy and that I am not wanted or needed, its time to move on like tens of thousands of other editors before me. Might I make an occasional change as an IP, sure, but I am done with this place. IRT the template editor user right. Its too little too late and frankly I think its unnecessary and was created because the community doesn't trust its editors. If it did, it would give them the tools not re-engineer the system and create a new user right so they can keep editors down. I don't think I have seen one editor apply for the template editor right I wouldn't trust with the admin tools, yet many have tried and failed, some multiple times. But the admin corps and the community would rather give the tools to someone who keeps quite, stays in their little corner and doesn't raise a fuss instead of giving it to those editors who are actively doing things, participating in controversial areas and trying to improve the project. So the only way to fix it is to unbundle things into smaller groups. Because trust is a rare thing here and that is one of the reasons this project is going to fail. Now you all can go ahead and minimize my comments as griefing or socking or whatever you want. In fact, why don't you block me. In fact, block all the IP's too. I don't really care and I do not plan to edit here and the reason is I am now editing at Wikia. In the last month three projects have made me an admin because of my work in those projects. They want the help and they are going to get it. You guys don't want the help, so fine, you won't get it. Kumioko (talk) 13:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko, please. Do you honestly expect that I, or anyone, should believe you really weren't this IP, even though the tone and style is a match for your frequent complaints? Or for the fact that you have a habit of pretending to retire, only to come back as an IP desperately seeking validation? Or for the fact that you are still doing a bunch of your WPUS tagging from this IP? I would also point out an incorrect assumption on your part. I never asked to be an admin, I was nominated. And you didn't "wait too long", you've shown repeatedly that you are completely unsuited for the role. There isn't a reasonable RFA process I can imagine that would see you pass at this point. And the fault for that is your own attitude, not anyone else's. Your comments here - both as IP and logged in - show your fatal flaw. You think you are smarter and better than everyone else, yet manage to fool nobody into believing it. And despite your attempt to convince yourself otherwise, it is quite obvious that it does bother you. Resolute 16:00, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I really don't care if you believe me or not and I'm not seeking validation. I've moved on. Misplaced Pages is not the only Wiki and if you would quite trying to provoke a response from me, I would quite responding. That is why I do not think you are a suitable admin. You are too prone to provocing other editors you disagree with and you are frequently a dick when talking to other "lesser" editors. But the admin tools are forever so you as with many of the other abusive ones remain and many editors like me leave because of it. I also agree that I will never pass RFA, but its not because of my attitude or suitability. Its because I have been adamantly trying to fix the broken admins system and the abuses of the admins. That will prevent me from ever getting the tools. The half million edits, technical abilities and other work I have done doesn't matter to anyone. That is the problem. A complete and utter lack of trust. AGF doesn't exist here anymore. I also don't think I am better than anyone. I think I am equally as good as anyone here and I am tired of being insulted and put down by people like you who want to keep the project down by keeping the status quo. Kumioko (talk) 17:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I hope he's not. I like him and the project is better off having him than not having him. Enjoy life and edit WP!!! Carrite (talk) 01:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm old enough and jaded enough to realize that there really were no "good old days." This is universally true, Misplaced Pages not excepted. There have always been problems and there will always be problems. The thing is (and the haters at WPO howl when I say this) Misplaced Pages has improved over time. If you don't believe me, start hammering the RANDOM ARTICLE button and compare current state to the way the article sat in January 2010 or March 2008 or June 2005 or October 2003 or whatever "golden age of Misplaced Pages" you worship. No comparison — today's WP content is far, far better than the content of yesteryear. We know how the sausage is made, and that can cause one to lose one's taste for sausage — but there are tens of millions of people around the world who honestly like the sausage and whose lives are incrementally improved by being able to pick up a computer or a tablet or a smartphone anywhere, anytime and to obtain quick and accurate information about virtually any question they have. Misplaced Pages is a really good thing and it's getting better and better, even if it sometimes seems like the 3rd Godfather movie, with "The Family" getting smaller and smaller and constantly killing one another with lynch mobs at AN/I.

Moreover, "mass collaboration" per se has never been the source of excellent articles. Good content is the work of one or two or sometimes a few people working over time. The vaunted "crowdsourcing" might have powered Sangerpedia2001 (and let there be no mistake, that content sucked), but it has precious little to do with Misplaced Pages today. Misplaced Pages is the product of thousands of people who, independently and in isolation, care enough to write about something. If the drama is overwhelming, avoid the drama and just write something. Carrite (talk) 01:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Seconding what Carrite said. Edison (talk) 02:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

And a very strong third to that!--Mark Miller (talk) 02:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

And a very strong fourth to that too! 24.4.37.209 (talk) 00:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, things are improving (although slowly at times), and while we are out on tangent lines, let me note how the word "co-founder" can be used to claim Pontius Pilate as being the co-founder of Christianity. But meanwhile, back at the ranch, the ability to have more people authorized to perform {editprotected} requests will be more like the "golden age" where people could update pages faster, even asking others to quickly install an update within the hour. Agreed, many early pages had poor-quality content, but improvements were allowed in many pages very quickly, and that is a path to follow. -Wikid77 (talk) 03:18, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikid77, let me sat that I appreciate your excellent reporting on the technical aspects of the project. However, I find that you have unfounded optimism with regard to project governance. I urge you to examine the way in which the project is being run (off the rails), and use your technical updates to discuss political issues faced by the encyclopedia internally. Do not kowtow to the Official Party Line of many Misplaced Pages higher-ups that Misplaced Pages Is Always Improving And There Are No Deep Problems. Content-wise we are improving, but only incrementally; systemic reform is the only thing that can bring greater improvements to community order and editor retention, and these benefits will be reflected in an increased amount of good-quality content. Wer900 • talk 03:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I've been here for almost eleven years now. I remember the early days very clearly. We meant well, but the content was terrible. This is a Golden Age in comparison. If you showed me today's Misplaced Pages in 2002, it would have completely blown my mind. — Scott • talk 11:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Carrite's statements are true in almost every respect—however, as he knows (and acknowledges), Misplaced Pages has deep and grave systemic errors that are preventing it from anything more than incremental improvement over time. POV warriors are not dealt with expeditiously, and those who subvert the encyclopedia for their own aims are not adequately punished. Drama creators hold far more sway over AN/I than any administrator who feels the need to be an honest, diligent civil servant of the encyclopedia. Content is substandard in most articles, even to an extent in good and featured articles in non-academic areas, and there is no editorial board, governance structure, or judicial system to resolve disputes on the basis of a constitution. Thanks to the existence of the idiotic, unqualified ignore all rules policy, the spirit, not the letter, of the rules is undercut without justification by power users with cabals (note, I do not refer to a single Cabal, but multiple) built up around them, but the smallest procedural violation can send an ordinary user on course for a block. Capping all of this, AN/I dwellers, "power users", some of the members or ArbCom, and a good number of WMF employees covertly work against the aim of the encyclopedia for their own benefit. There is ample documentation of all of this on Wikipediocracy and in the press; rather than simply using the "bad site" non-argument, it would serve Jimmy Wales and the Foundation well to understand why some people oppose the direction of this community's governance. Paying lip service by saying "there are problems, but a committee must constitute a committee in order to promulgate the regulation (subject to community ratification) that will initiate the creation of a separate standing committee to oversee the review of Misplaced Pages policies and appoint a steering committee to holistically examine the ways in which policy modifications can be made, with conditions for a time limit created by the promulgating regulations and a final time limit created pursuant to these conditions by the standing committee." Wer900 • talk 03:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

@WER. A dose of ultra-realism here. Misplaced Pages's decision-making system does not allow it to correct some of its systemic problems and that's not going to change anytime soon, if ever. At a certain point, it becomes necessary to make one's peace with the fact that this is an imperfect environment, with a certain number of not nice people doing not nice things from time to time; recognizing that the value of The Project makes the negative aspects endurable. Change can happen and does happen, but it is a slow process. Stalemate and inertia is a common outcome of the supermajority RFC system of decision-making so with respect to Misplaced Pages, what you see is what you get. Learn to live with what you see, but never stop trying to chip away at the sharp edges of the bad parts. (By the way, WP:IAR is one of the very good things, but that's another story.) Carrite (talk) 17:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Not only that, Carrite, but this assessment pertains to the English Misplaced Pages, which is the most developed of all the 200+ wiki projects and has the most safeguards. I imagine each wiki has their own serious issues they are dealing with, especially involving leadership and administration. I'd bet most of them are all trying to get WMF's attention to help with solutions to their problems. Liz 19:17, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Please make no mistake, the WMF is concerned only about getting as much donations as they could, and then they misuse the money to write the programs that do not work. The WMF has even failed to explain why and how they ended up employing a racist. 24.4.37.209 (talk) 00:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Wer900, how can you use the terms "documentation" and "Wikipediocracy" in the same sentence? I have yet to seeUntil a few seconds ago, I had never seen a single link in all my time on the web to show any evidence that Wikipediocracy is anything but a hate site like Stormfront and FreeRepublic, filled with embittered thwarted spammers, shrill alarm-sounders ("The pedos are coming! The Pedos are coming!") and angry POV pushers slamming those still here. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Try this one and then redact, my friend... "The Good Old Days Weren't So Good." Carrite (talk) 00:43, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I only spent some time browsing there after seeing the mention above but I think comparison to 'Stormfront' is overly harsh. It seems to be more of what used to be called a 'snark' ('Some have feathers and bite, and some have whiskers and scratch.') forum than a 'hate site'.AnonNep (talk) 00:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I have been influenced by the false and nasty things said about me there over the years. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. You're a target there with some people there and that's probably very unpleasant. While you and I disagree about certain things (with respect to paid editing), we agree about many others. Keep up the good work. Carrite (talk) 02:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It's a satire site, like Encyclopedia Dramatica. Both have their place, but people citing them as serious sources should not be upset to find themselves mocked. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Uh, no. Disagree with the editorial bias on the mainpage if you like, disagree vehemently with this poster or that, but don't liken WPO to the trolls and mean-spirited shitballs at ED. Carrite (talk) 02:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

While they continue to share the same staff, and act in the same manner, they will find it hard to pretend to a greater purpose. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

While I am also a user of the Wikipediocracy at times, you're quite right in this assessment. There's much legitimate content there, but it tends to be overshadowed when they allow <redacted personal attacks> to take up residence there, much the same as the Misplaced Pages Review was stained by letting the <redacted personal attacks> run free. They are quite like ED at times...I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing per se, as I support ED. But it'd be nice if they'd at least own up to it. Tarc (talk) 03:47, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Demiurge1000, I know that you have been lampooned to a great extent on Wikipediocracy, for better or worse. However, you (and OrangeMike) must realize that the site presents a diversity of opinion, ranging from the pro-paid editing Gregory Kohs to Newyorkbrad himself. My own views are not nearly as extreme as those of most of the staff of that site, and I do not support the (often right-wing) trolls that we harbor on that site. Besides, Wikipediocracy is not a satire site; it is a legitimate site for serious discussion of the problems facing Misplaced Pages, and (for a plurality if not a majority of users) how to resolve that problem in the cleanest way possible. This is a far cry from the pornography-ridden, CloudFlare-run troll site that is the Encyclopædia Dramatica.

That said, I don't believe that there were every any "good old days"—problems with self-serving private bureaucracies, ArbCom and its inefficiency and unwillingness to take on power players, opaque governance (or lack thereof), and the covert dealings of insiders have plagued the project since time immemorial. It is time for a major revolution in Misplaced Pages governance, as I have suggested before; however, I do not plan on bringing Misplaced Pages back to the good old days, but into the future. Wer900 • talk 04:49, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Revolutions generally require at least some level of popular support. But the only person supporting your programme of "revolution" is you. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, there are Carrite (talk · contribs), Kumioko (talk · contribs), Epipelagic (talk · contribs) and Cas Liber (talk · contribs), among others, who support a reform program similar to mine. In fact, most content editors are supporters of a sweeping reform program for the benefits of the encyclopedia. The reason it seems that I have little support is only because people like you, Demiurge1000, who benefit from the system as its stands now to get away with trolling, subversion, paid editing and worse, do not want any reform so that they can continue their personal gain through the encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is falling, and the cause is its ostensibly most patriotic, dedicated users. Wer900 • talk 16:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It isn't difficult to tell who the dominating voices are on Wikipediocracy. They become the de facto spokespeople for all of you and given many of them are bitter trolls - a few of which are banned outright here - you shouldn't be surprised to find that few people outside your little circle take you seriously. Demiurge1000's comparison of your side to ED is perhaps a little unfair, but not as much as you would like to believe. Wikipediocracy is little more than a caricature of a criticism site. Also, I've read some of your rants. If you're leading the "revolution", count me out. Resolute 16:12, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It's a message board, not a political party. The mainpage "blog" has a little circle of involved individuals of the "hasten the day " frame of mind; there is a far wider range of views on the board itself, up to and including several active administrators and occasional visits from members of the current ArbCom. There is a relationship between WPO criticism and actual WP reform, I'm satisfied of that. With respect to the comments above about WPO being "like Stormfront" or "like Encyclopedia Dramatica," actually if you get right down to it the site it is the most similar to is..........wait for it......... Misplaced Pages. Substitute "Zoloft" for Jimmy Wales and a structured messageboard for the text on this page and there ya go. Both there and here there are both sensible and kooky people. Carrite (talk) 18:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree completely with Carrite's statements, except with the remarks about the blog. Although almost everyone who writes for it wants to "Hasten the Day™", I personally have written for the blog and have tried to make targeted criticism with the aim of reform. I have never outed anyone on that blog, even when I have had the opportunity to do so, and try to focus on policies, processes, and events more than on individuals.

We want a wide range of views represented on the encyclopedia. Resolute, if you would like to write a blog post on Wikipediocracy, you can email it to me and I can pass it on to Jayen466 (talk · contribs) (Andreas Kolbe), who I am sure is open to criticism of the site and has even offered Otto Placic, a doctor found advertising plastic-surgery services on Misplaced Pages, an opportunity to write his state of mind. If you, Jimmy Wales, or anyone else is brave enough, then write to me what you would like to put on Wikipediocracy's front page, supporting or opposing Misplaced Pages practices. Wer900 • talk 18:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, but no. I posted at Misplaced Pages Review for a short time and have read discussions on Wikipediocracy. Neither are communities I particularly care to associate with. When I feel the need to ask, debate or support change to Misplaced Pages, I do it on Misplaced Pages. And without the sockpuppetry or hiding behind IPs. Resolute 18:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Carrite's assessment is spot on. There is a terrific amount of useful discussion on WPO, and time and again it's resulted in direct change here, at a variety of scales. The difficulty with the site, if you can call it that, is that there's no "your side" to easily classify the posters on. There are as many varieties of opinion there as there are here, if not more, because it also includes some people who are banned here, and even some people who've never edited here at all. Which is completely acceptable for criticism of Misplaced Pages, because it insulates against being an echo chamber. If you have an ideological opposition to talking to people anywhere that have been banned from Misplaced Pages, you're not going to do very well. But if you can accept that you're going to encounter all sorts - because Wikipediocracy is a veritable Rick's Café Américain for this site - it will be a productive experience. You just have to spend enough time reading to get a feel for the different viewpoints on offer (often associated with particular users) and decide how much salt to take with any given post. There are some posters there who, for me, require none at all. Others require a truckload. That's just how it is. The moderators also do a very good job at excluding the worst of the worst; Wikipediocracy is not Misplaced Pages Review at all, even if it shares some posters with that earlier site.

The forum format also lends itself well to discussion of this site; on here, things go into the archives after being dormant for a short time. That's led to a kind of institutional blindness on our part. We're in this project for the long haul; our ability to self-examine should support long-term asynchronous discussions. — Scott • talk 11:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Y'know, there's really room for a more "pro-WP" message board as well. Looser rules of discussion than there are on-Wiki but with less of a molotov cocktail-throwing/bring it down vibe. A "Wikipediocracy Review" forum would make for entertaining reading as part of it. This page is as close as WP gets to that (which is what makes it so appealing, by the way), but things get totally lost in long threads. Like this response I am writing now, for example. Food for thought though. Carrite (talk) 15:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

In a belated reply to the IP who started this whole thread.

When the project first started and for several years after people participated in a meaningful project and they felt happy to volunteer their time. Today however things are much different. Editors and admins leave in droves. New editors are run off or don't bother with the project at all. The WMF themselves don't trust the editors here and that was evidenced by the Visual Editor release and followon discussions. The community doesn't trust the WMF for the same reasons. Editors who attempt to help are told to go away in one way or another and that their help isn't wanted or appreciated. That includes active long term editors. This is a volunteer project, people come and go in large numbers, many of those who go come back. This is normal for a volunteer community, and only becomes a problem if people you want are being driven away, you fail to recruit or you lose more people than you gain. We don't lose droves of our admins, we lose around 1% a month. But we are promoting far fewer than we lose, and as a result numbers are falling. Also the wikigeneration divide is growing between the admin corps, most of whom have been admins for more than five years and the editors many of whom have been active for less than five years. But while the decline in our number of admins is clear and fairly easy to measure, we honestly don't know if the community is otherwise in decline. Take for example the size of our volunteer community and its level of activity. We can easily get raw but misleading figures such as number of edits or number of editors, but to meaningfully compare them with previous years we need to allow for some of the changes here. Doing so is difficult. Unpicking the effect of V/E from the migration of some editors to wikidata and the huge but entirely cosmetic loss of bot edits because of the change in the way we handle intrawiki links is complex. I'm not aware that anyone has cracked that yet. As one of the people who tested V/E in the spring I'm well aware that it was released too soon, and that it was going to bite newbies and do more harm than good. But quantifying that is difficult, more difficult I expect even than working out the effect of the edit filters. The Edit Filters were introduced in 2009 when they were called abuse filters, they now deal with a large proportion of the vandalism that we used to get, and they do so brilliantly, the nearest thing to a downside of them is that they have reduced our edit count by losing us millions of vandalism edits and millions of vandalism reversion edits. As far as I'm aware no-one who has come up with a formulae to show what would have happened if those edit filters had instead been coded as anti vandal bots and we'd allowed the vandalism to take place and then seconds later reverted it. So no-one actually knows if the community today is larger or smaller than it was in 2009. In my opinion it is too soon to quantify the damage of the overly hasty release of V/E, it is just very sad that it was released before fixing the bugs that I and others had reported, and I hope that doesn't ultimately lead to its abandonment.

Jimbo, its time for you and the WMF to get your act together and fix this place. Stop ignoring all the problems, start enforcing the rules fairly and stop playing favorites. Stop allowing the admins to do whatever they want without impunity. Put an end to the us and them mentality between editors and admins, the abuses and the croniism and protectionism. Stop protecting all the content and blocking every IP and start trusting editors again. Stop the WMF from releasing broken, unreliable and untested software on the community and forcing the community to clean up the mess. If you do even some of these things, Misplaced Pages editing will pick back up again. Yes admins can do "whatever they want without impunity" as Arbcom desysops after the event not before. You probably meant to say that admins can do "whatever they want with impunity" but that simply isn't true. Arbcom has the power to desysop admins and has used that this year. Your argument is undermined by exaggeration. If you'd made the case that we block too many IPs then I'd agree with you, if you made a case for too many articles being protected then I'd have been sufficiently intrigued to ask for examples. But you know as well as I do that we don't block every IP, or even anything close to that, nor do we protect more than a tiny proportion of articles. Some of your other points may have been good ones, but if so you undermined them by such exaggerations. ϢereSpielChequers 08:31, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I can only speak for myself but I disagree with you because part of the admin abused I have been talking about for years are the over protection of articles and templates. The over eager blocking of new editors and IP's, especially range blocks. The frequency that admins show article ownership, the frequency with which they enforce their own POV and more. I don't expect admins to admit there is a problem, I never did and that itself is part of the problem. Three is little desire to make things better and that will eventually be the projects undoing. That is also why the WMF doesn't ask the community before it implements changes, because we don't want, anticipate and are generally unwillng to accept, change. On the admin leaving issue. We desysopp about 5 a month, we promote 1 or 2 and a huge amount more don't edit. Some even voluntarily give up their tools. That on top of the fact that we increasingly protect and block. All of which make more work for the few remaining. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this is going to be a problem in the not so distant future. Add to that the toxic editing environment that keeps people from editing and makes them leave. Then the ones that do stay and want to participate are told they aren't wanted or needed. People say I can't be trusted which is complete bullshit. I've been trying to improve the project, so arguments to the contrary are misrepresentative of the facts. I would argue few are more dedicated to the project and I have gotten to the point where I have basically left because of the problems. Several of the top editors have left in the past few months myself included. Its fairly easy to replace an editor that does ten edits a month. Its a lot harder to replace one that does 10, 000. But its becoming more clear to me that no one really cares. Jimbo certainly doesn't, he hasn't even taken the time to comment. As for Arbcom desysoppings. Its easy to pick one or 2 outliers and say the system works, but it doesn't. There are a lot more admins who are abusive and should lose the tools and you know it. All you have to do to see it is watch the logs for a couple weeks. See the comments made to editors when they block, when the delete content, when they interact with other users. Watch the comments made by admins here, at AN and ANI and on the Wikiprojects. Anyway, I'm done. Done with this project and done with this discussion. Kumioko (talk) 11:07, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course you are. At any rate, predictions of doom and gloom have existed since the time I started editing. The same predictions of doom and gloom will continue long after I inevitably move on. People see one or two long-time wikifriends retire or leave - or become frustrated themselves - and start assuming that the entire house of cards is about to collapse. Meanwhile, many thousand editors outside of their scope of vision happily improve articles every day. When you live at AN and ANI and Jimbo's talk page, it is easy to convince yourself the entire system is falling apart. When you live in article space though, the story tends to be different. Resolute 15:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

One thing that I've discovered is that if you spend all your time staring at AN/I or ArbCom or AfD, it can get depressing really fast. People need to be sure to keep in touch with the whole point of the exercise, which is contributing in whatever manner you contribute — researching and writing, copy editing, helping newcomers, etc. The other thing that can help stave off unhappiness is visiting the new articles queue regularly — Special:NewPages. Sure, there's a vast wave of crap coming in — but there are also scores of good new contributions every single day of the year, written by editors you've never heard of and may never hear of again. We worry about algae in the swimming pool, and needing to replace the water that inevitably evaporates away, when there's a whole big ocean out there. The little cloistered bunch of drama-following navel-gazers like me and you and you and you are just a small part of what Misplaced Pages actually is. Draw inspiration from the ocean... Carrite (talk) 16:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Memorial service for VisualEditor

The one-month anniversary will be 23 October 2013, for the removal of wp:VisualEditor (VE) from the Misplaced Pages top menu. I think we should create an essay page where people could post their opinions, in retrospect one month later, about the removal of VE under guidance from Kww, use of Special:Preferences opt-in, and discuss the continued cleanup of hundreds of text glitches saved into pages by the early versions of VE. Very many people burned days, weeks or months in dealing with the problems, and perhaps some people need a process of closure to defuse the tensions which had grown during the whole situation. Also, other people think more publicity is needed to inform (or warn) newer users who might wish to opt-in and learn more about VE, so it would be a chance to discuss how the bugfixes to VE have improved the operation. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:34, 20 October, 00:31, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

A lot of the threads that talk about VE end up in shouting matches, how do you propose to make sure things are civil?Camelbinky (talk) 01:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

We could buy a couplea kegs of good IPA and hold a wake... Carrite (talk) 04:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Discuss tool ideas at WP:VPIL Idea Lab

This is a reminder for people to discuss ideas for new tools or templates at wp:VPIL, the Idea Lab. With more than 30 users now authorized as wp:Template_editors, there has been renewed enthusiasm to enhance the tools, or create new templates which the authors can continue to expand without the prior lockdown which occurred when templates became popular and were fully-protected against non-admin updates. Anyway, discuss or create a new thread at wp:VPIL (or wp:Lua requests). -Wikid77 (talk) 05:34, 20 October 2013 (UTC)