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The definition of atheism has been repeatedly argued on this talk page. Before suggesting substantial changes, please make sure that your view is entirely supported by reliable sources and has a neutral point of view.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about the definition in the first paragraph. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting on that topic.

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Atheism as form of belief?

Atheism is a form of belief, not believing is the same as believing (believing by not believing). So this mutter, should be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.229.249.49 (talk) 22:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This has been argued to death. The usual rhetoric is to respond with "Baldness is not a type of haircut", "not believing in Unicorns isn't a form of belief", "not eating isn't a type of meal" or some such, IRWolfie- (talk) 22:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Beautiful senselessness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.229.249.49 (talk) 23:17, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Baldness can be a type of haircut, Wolfie. I think you were going for "Bald is not a hair color". But obviously, not believing ≠ believing. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 18:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Atheism need not be a belief; it may be a simple lack of interest. See Pragmatic atheism, or apatheism. "an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant..." __ Just plain Bill (talk) 18:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Or, for example, agnostic atheism which is for people who do "not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact". IRWolfie- (talk) 00:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The definition of atheism is contested. Disappointingly, this article's opening hierarchy of definitions appears to be OR which misrepresents the sources used (as I wrote above, with no response). Alexbrn 06:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Misrepresents the sources, how so? Rowe, "in the broader sense of the term" is referring to the kinds of deities rejected, as does Nielsen who writes for the Britannica "Atheism, in general, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. . Our opening sentence essentially paraphrases this definition of rejection. Rowe points out the commonly understood narrowest definition, is the positive atheism belief that there is no God, but since there are, in fact, many conceptions of God, Blackburn correctly refers to "a god" and not "God" when he states that atheism can be "...the belief that there exists none." --Modocc (talk) 14:13, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

In other word, pure WP:SYN. Rowe calls his definition "broader", WP somehow turns it into a "narrower" one. The tripartite interrelated definition WP gives is found in no source. There are further problems: a lead should summarize the article body ... this one starts by expounding a novel theory. In general, my impression is this article attempts to engage in the atheism debate rather than observing it disinterestedly, and some past editors have perhaps become a bit too attached to the ingenious OR they opened the article with. It would be much better to open with a statement that the definition is contested (easily sourced), rather than attempting to nail atheism down with a synthesized bit of thinking. Alexbrn 07:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Rowe calls a "disbelief in every form of deity" definition a "broader sense" than merely "disbelief in God". Which is true, though using "atheist" for disbelief in a specific god includes believers in competing gods, and is a rather uncommon usage. Both of those senses are, indeed, narrower than the other two senses in our lede. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

... which is a broad/narrow distinction that differs from the one in the article, and is OR. The very fact the opening sentences need this kind of exegesis should be ringing alarm bells (along with the other problems I raised.) Alexbrn 09:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Rowe's definitions seem to confuse more than enlighten thus we can remove/replace it. Someone may have inserted it when another editor objected to using the term "position" instead of "belief"; we once had a philosophy text to source that usage, but I don't know what became of it (alas, perfectionists abound... ;). There are plenty of other sources available for the definition that atheism is a position/belief asserting that no deity exists. Yet Nielsen states (and Edwards supports) that although atheists affirm nonexistence of some deities that this is inadequate (thus too narrow) and it is the broader sense of rejection that is adequate. Dictionary definitions and our sources actually DO give us the broader senses of disbelief and lack of belief, as well as the narrower senses of belief and doctrine. That some people (often with agendas to push) have problems with one or more of these is better left in the body of the article where such navel-gazing gets its due weight and no more than that. -Modocc (talk) 13:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this article should be locked even from wikipedian insiders, so that no one can ever correct the horrendously poor grammer and syntax. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.25.6 (talk) 13:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

"Grammar", I think you mean. --Dannyno (talk) 20:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

There are only two options. Either a) Athe-ism = a belief that there are no Gods, and is a philosophy. Athe-ist = someone who believes there are no Gods. Or, b) A-theism = no god belief, is not a philosophy, and can describe every sentient and non-sentient thing in existence, except Theists. A-theist = not a God believer, and could describe anything but Theists. Athe-ist defines a person, A-theist doesn't. Nothinheavy (talk) 07:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

And yet historically the word "atheist" has been used probably more often of believers in gods than in nonbelievers in gods. In any case, your comment is not based on the literature. --Dannyno (talk) 20:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I would define an atheist as “one who has no belief in deities” not “something which has no belief in deities”. In general, any sort of -ist is a person, not an inanimate object. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 11:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect. "atheist" can be an adjective: an "atheist" book is an inanimate object, but a perfectly reasonable use of the word. See also -ist words which can be used in an adjectival sense: abolitionist, royalist, fascist, Baptist, anarchist, racist, etc. But you went wrong when you said "I would define..." It doesn't matter, in Misplaced Pages, what you would do. --Dannyno (talk) 21:25, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Calling a pencil or a book atheist is a reasonable use of the word as an adjective where by whom, when? Is there a scholar that has been using it in this manner? Has it been used in a national news story in any country in this manner? I have never witnessed this usage of atheist as an adjective for an inanimate object except in a few atheist discussion groups as an extreme case of set theory. It is NOT common practice and would be laughed at by most people. Alatari (talk) 21:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary lists "atheist" is both noun and adjective. And, as I pointed out, there are lots of -ist words which can be used adjectivally, as in "atheist book". Nobody laughs when people call The God Delusion an atheist book. And if my pencil says "Atheism is cool", nobody will laugh if I call it an "atheist pencil". They might laugh if it doesn't carry any atheist message and I call it an atheist pencil on the grounds that it isn't specifically a theistic pencil, but unfortunately we are in the position where some definitions of atheism would suggest that possibility. My point is that we should not rush to rule out adjectival use of "atheist" just because we don't like what we consider excessively generalised conceptualisations of the atheistic.--Dannyno (talk) 23:01, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

If it helps, see: "Reward: $1,500 for arrest in case of stolen atheist banner" --Dannyno (talk) 23:07, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

When I hear “atheist book”, I think of books like The God Delusion or Why I Am Not a Christian, and not like The Purpose-Driven Life. Seems like I interpret that phrase to mean “books written from an atheistic perspective”. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, yeah, that's what the adjectival form means in the English language. An "atheist perspective" is also adjectival, of course :-), and nobody laughs at that --Dannyno (talk) 23:01, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure. You can have socialist ideals, but ideals aren't socialists. You can subscribe to a racist ideology, but ideologies aren't racists. You can read an anarchist manifesto, but manifestos aren't anarchists. In general, -ists are people. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 04:08, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The idea that Atheism as defined simply as a "lack of belief in any god(s)", and can thus include "any non sentient or sentient thing in existence", is easily remedied by defining atheist as a person, thereby making it impossible for any non-sentient thing to be called an atheist. So please, stop using that ridiculous line of reasoning to try and pigeon-hole the meaning of atheism as just the belief their is no god, it's not going to work. 96.255.197.202 (talk) 16:38, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it is not Misplaced Pages's job to "easily remedy" problems caused by the difficulties in defining atheism. Like it or not, "atheism" can be used as a noun or an adjective. We may think it unfortunate that the way atheism is sometimes defined means you could end up talking about "atheist pencils" even if the pencil sports no obvious atheist message or symbol, but Misplaced Pages cannot unilaterally remedy that. But nor should we use this problem, if it is a problem (and that's not for us to say), to try to impose a particular definition on this article. --Dannyno (talk) 21:25, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Surely you meant “atheist” (not “atheism”) can be used as a noun or an adjective. Personally, I don‘t find it confusing that an inanimate object can be X-ist without being an X-ist. Though you may well confuse your readers talking about “atheist staplers”, “atheist diamonds”, and suchlike that have no semantic connection to atheism. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 04:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

My argument wasn't that atheist will always and everywhere imply "a person", (that's not how language works) but that the argument that atheism, as defined by "a lack of belief", necessarily implies "atheist pencils", is false, as long as the word "atheist" can mean JUST a person. In other words, it doesn't matter that a pencil "lacks" belief in god, what matters is whether "atheist" is understood as a person, or "sentient thing", because IF it is then a pencil cannot be an atheist. I'd say in most cases (though I don't have a citation), it'd be a safe bet to say atheist is understood as a person. Honestly this seems rather obvious to me, the only reason there has been any argument about this at all is because theists want atheist to carry the same burden of proof as they do, i.e. "belief there is no god." 96.255.197.202 (talk) 10:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not define a word, just reports other's definitions. Get a wp:rs of what you want to use and discuss it here; if it already has not been discussed ad nausium. I suspect part of the problem is that atheist and atheism have many meanings. From its "parse-the-word" definition and "dictionary definition" to various groups' definitions. The definitions are irresolute.

As far as requiring proof of one's "belief there is no god", it would seem to open up the requirement one having to prove an infinite number of things they don't believe in. There are many claims of different gods, see: List of deities. You might be able to ask for proving one's claim for only one god, but not the 20,000 or more gods that have been documented by anthropologists. Generally, the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the denier. Jim1138 (talk) 03:11, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

This is an age-old argument. I personally think that people who grow up within a religious-structured environment become used to thinking of others in terms of belief, due to environmental recognition, which is there is the presupposition among religious people that atheism is a belief, or why people who have abandoned a heavily faith-based environment may embrace the concept of disbelief in a 'religious-like' manner, but that's all rather irrelevant to wikipedia because that's my own original research. What I would point out, though, is that there is a large amount of confusion between the boundaries of atheism and secular humanism. Whilst many atheists are secular humanists, and vice verse, it is not universally true for all and because it can be more readily argued that secular humanism is a belief system, there is bound to be a bleed-over between the two for those who aren't experts on the subject. Maybe worth highlighting the two? I dunno. Just running my mouth off here. Justin.Parallax (talk) 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Funnily enough, my own experience, far from suggesting that "there is the presupposition among religious people that atheism is a belief", suggests that among religious people there is a presupposition that atheism is a lack of belief, and in many cases a strong resistance to the view that an atheist actually has belief. But there you are, that simply confirms the need for reliable sources, since two Misplaced Pages editors' good faith impressions can be diametrically opposite. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Antony Flew and this article on Atheism

Antony Flew is mentioned in this article on Atheism in the paragraph titled - Positive v's Negative. One might consider that in mentioning Flew in an article on Atheism one should also mention that Flew was an atheist for most of his life but chose in the end to be a theist and believe that God does exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.89.188.181 (talk) 02:15, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

According to his bio page here, that's true, but the place on this page where I see him mentioned doesn't really deal with that issue, just some distinctions between different classifications of atheism, as opposed to Flew's personal belief system. Therefore, I think that pointing it out would be sort of off-topic within that particular section of the page, and could be a distraction. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Tryptofish--JimWae (talk) 22:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Ditto. Flew's conversion to vague deism in his dotage may be germane in Anthony Flew, but not here. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 03:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Robin Lionheart above me. Flew hold in a version of vague Deism, not Thesim, and i would be surprised if there exists a reference of Flew calling himself a "Theist". Ben-Natan (talk) 02:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

He's mentioned because of his contribution to the clarification of the meaning of atheism. Clearly he changed his philosophical views later in life, but that's not relevant to the section --Dannyno (talk) 20:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Some very interesting and very important statistics

Dont you think that in section Demographics must be also statistics about people's Church attendance. I think it is necessary as long as it's shows the real rate of people's religiousness.

Or statistics about religion's importance by country, provided here- Importance of religion by country. It's also shows the real rate of people's religiousness.

And finally the last suggestion: another very intersting study by Gallup. According that, Religiosity Highest in World's Poorest Nations. The link is here http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx. That's really interesting statistics: how mush is given country poor, the rate of religiousness in that country is higher. Really interesting thing. And given the USA alone, situation is the same: more pure is a given State, the higher is religiousness rate. I think this information is very exciting. I wonder why till today there is no any information I mentioned above.

So, I have made 3 suggestions to put in the article this 3 statistical informations. Guys, please your opinions to any of this sugestion one by one, and please-please your comments must be reasonable. Thanks in advance. 46.70.181.145 (talk) 22:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not exactly sure what you are suggesting. Can you show the reliable secondary sources that are informing your viewpoint? IRWolfie- (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Is not it obvious: I suggest to put all above mentioned statistics in the article's section called Demographics. As of sources, first 2 of them in mentioned articles (about Church attendance and Importance of religion by country) and the last one in the link I mentioned above (I mean Gallup's study). In my opinion this figures are important for the topic.So what you think? 46.70.181.145 (talk) 00:06, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Church attendance statistics seem irrelevant, especially to an article on atheism. Nor do rates of church attendance indicate a “real rate” of religiousness. (Some of American Atheists' ad campaigns specifically target atheists who go to church, and there are devoutly religious people who don’t attend church at all.) ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 04:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

There is actually a Misplaced Pages article on Wealth and religion. Have a look there. Arnoutf (talk) 08:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, OK, what about Gallup is reserch about comparision of poor condition of coutries and their religiousness? I think it's necessary in this article. And if even there is a same information in another article, it is not a reason to not include this figures here. 46.71.100.254 (talk) 11:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

And second, you did not respond about figures of Importance of religion by country. Why? Please also your comments about it. And please don't pretend that such statistics are not concern to this article. Thanks in advance. 46.71.100.254 (talk) 11:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You will find that you are more likely to get a reasonable response to your comments if you show some manners... AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

And in answer to your suggestions, the correct place for further demographic information is generally in the Demographics of atheism article, though as far as I can see it is already covered there. Regarding the 'Importance of religion by country' data, one needs to be careful about making assumptions not actually borne out directly by the source (and incidentally, our article on the subject seems to contain some unsourced data). AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:13, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me, what does it mean to show some manners ?? I have very normal manners and dont try to change the subject of the issue just because you dont like it! I just asked to make reasonable responds, and there is nothing bad in it ! Misplaced Pages is not your ownership and if you disagree with some suggestions, it must be reasonable, you can't just refuse them without reasons. Thats the Rules of Misplaced Pages. And never again try to teach me the manners !!

And second, I am disagree with your comments: if there is an article about Demographics of atheism, thats not a reason to not show some figures here. We have section Demographics here, so why not it can be added there?

I am asking to some other User, who are not prejudice, to join to this discussion to make any normal solution according to the Misplaced Pages Rules. Thanks in advance. 46.71.203.2 (talk) 16:42, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Much of manners is about tone of voice. Just the phrase "you can't just refuse them without reasons. Thats the Rules of Misplaced Pages. And never again try to teach me the manners !!" show extremely poor manners. A more polite way to phrase the same line would be "I do not fully understand why you object. Could you please clarify a bit more".

More on the content. I think from the above that there are 2 types of argument.

The first being that this data is infamously difficult to collect as every religion, country and ethnic group differently defines church attendance. Even though Gallop is generally ok, it would probably be preferable to have additional sources, especially those that were not involved in data collection (ie secondary sources).

The second argument relates to the question whether we should include this information even if it can be reliable sources. The tendency seems to be that there are several articles on Misplaced Pages that cover this. So is it necessary to add this at this top level article. Over anything else we want to keep articles as concise as possible to support easy reading. Arnoutf (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Dear User Arnoutf, OK, thats good we want to keep articles as concise as possible to support easy reading. But I have 2 questions to you: first: in the section Demographics we have many figures. Why cant we add just 2 more sentences about Gallup's reserch? (btw now I am talking only about reserch where there is comparision of poor condition of coutries and their religiousness). Don't you think that mentioned statistics are also interesting for the people who read this article? And second question: you said there are several articles on Misplaced Pages that cover this. Can you show at least one artilce in Wiki, where this topic is covered.(Again, I mean only Gallup's reserch where there is comparision of poor condition of coutries and their religiousness). Thanks in advance. 46.71.203.2 (talk) 17:33, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

IP 46, since you asked, I am an "not prejudice" other user, and I concur that your approach and manners here have been suboptimal. You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...

Nevertheless, to answer your main point, no, I don't think the inclusion of those statistics are relevant, or appropriate here, mainly for the reasons elucidated by Robin Lionheart, and Andy gave you some good advice in his second post too. Thanks. Begoon  17:46, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Robin Lionheart responded only about one suggestion (Church attendance). The 2 others are not responded yet. I still dont get an answer about another question: is there any article where this topic (Gallup's reserch)is covered. And I dont expect respond now. Nevertheless, I just wanted to make article better. 46.71.203.2 (talk) 18:23, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I fully accept that 46. is here to try to make the article better. My take on the content is:

1. I think that church attendance belongs in articles about religion, instead of about atheism, because it is WP:SYNTH to conclude from non-attendance that people are atheists (as opposed to agnostics or seculars, etc.)
2. About religiousity by country, it may fit better in Demographics of atheism, but again, any article about atheism cannot confound agnostics, etc., with atheists.
3. About wealth, that information clearly fits best at Wealth and religion.

--Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this stuff belongs here, it belongs at the articles about religion etc as mentioned by Tryptofish. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand how including more statistics about other subjects will improve an article about atheism. Could that be clarified by the OP? --Dannyno (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Opening the definition box in case any hope might be left therein

I'm very clear that 1) the current first ¶ of the lede asserts a definition of atheism and that 2) it comes up short of what that thing is in the world big time. It therefore will need to be addressed sooner or later. The deficiency is that it fails to make clear that Atheism is the failure to found belief on faith and the insistence that it instead be grounded in reason. I'm sure this is very contentious and has been the result of much milling nonetheless, this isn't going to go away just because the notice above is redboxed. However this is to be addressed, I want to join efforts with others that I'm sure have tried to say something like that. It's certainly extremely well backed by many sources. Neither is it elsewhere in the lede or evident in the TOC. Lycurgus (talk) 02:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any sources for your claim that there is a "deficiency" in our definition along the lines you suggest. Please cite sources from the literature to support your claim, so that we can discuss them. --Dannyno (talk) 21:36, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

"Atheism is the failure to found belief on faith and the insistence that it instead be grounded in reason"? Weasel-worded sophistry, and nothing more... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Yello ATG, I purposely didn't try to make a statement that I propose go into the lede in my words. I take it others will be able to get the point. 76.180.168.166 (talk) 04:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

From my point of view, founding belief on reason not faith is no "failure". Quite the opposite — like Matt Dillahunty is wont to say, faith is an excuse people give themselves to believe things for no good reason. But atheism has naught to do with where your beliefs are grounded. It's simply a nonbelief in gods; you can still believe all sorts of other nonsense yet be an atheist. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 07:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The box at the top of this talk page isn't really intended to prevent discussion, just to avoid having the same conversations over and over again without getting anywhere. If someone can come up with an idea that is genuinely a new one, and genuinely an improvement to the page, then great. But, please be forewarned. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

(adjusted indentation). i.e. a Failure to do what most do in fact. Failure is an objective term here not a qualitative one. Are you already getting balled up in petty semantics and missing the fundamental semantic point? See System of Nature and many, many other sources for the larger picture. 76.180.168.166 (talk) 03:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

"Failure" as it appears in your original post indicates a non-neutral viewpoint. Nobody here is going to change the definition to include non-neutral wording. Binksternet (talk) 03:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The point is that the Atheist has a rational life stance and the narrow definition in terms of deities is both false and evasive of that essential point. Stop pettifogging on wording when I've made clear that I'm not proposing any specific wording. 76.180.168.166 (talk) 14:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

"Atheist has a rational life stance" looks like wishful thinking, or self-flattery. An atheist may easily hold irrational views on a variety of topics, including (lack of) belief in a deity or deities. Rationality is not a prerequisite to atheism (nor is organization, in case that's where this is headed.) Do you have reliable sourcing for "that essential point" that says otherwise? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. I personally know one atheist who believes in psychics, and another atheist who is a libertarian. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 19:05, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I know lots of atheists who believe the universe created itself. - Thomas Lachowsky — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.161.151 (talk) 04:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The term "atheism" means different things to different people, and as long as those differing views are given coverage by reliable sources, this article must reflect those views. Trying to pigeon hole atheists won't work. Attempts to narrow the focus of the article will not be viewed favorably. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, many theists would claim that their belief in the existence of god is rational. Whether it is or not is the main (but not the only) subject of the dialectic between theists and atheists. --Dannyno (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, there is yet no consensus as to what triggered the expansion of the universe from a 1-dimensional point of infinite density and infinite smallness. This solitary aspect keeps atheism in the realm of religion - a set of commonly accepted beliefs backed by no fact.

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