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:::As the sole Arthropod-American Misplaced Pages editor, I strongly second the motion. This whole thing is an example of what happens when you have a strongly POV minority trying to change articles. ] (]) 16:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC) :::As the sole Arthropod-American Misplaced Pages editor, I strongly second the motion. This whole thing is an example of what happens when you have a strongly POV minority trying to change articles. ] (]) 16:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
::::Don't you mean the ''N''POV minority? Anyway, ] and ] are core content policies, which cannot be superseded by consensus. So this means nothing. ]<sup>]. ]</sup> 16:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC) ::::Don't you mean the ''N''POV minority? Anyway, ] and ] are core content policies, which cannot be superseded by consensus. So this means nothing. ]<sup>]. ]</sup> 16:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


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Nationality

Per WP:OPENPARA, Chopin should be described as a Polish composer. There's not much to argue about here. Thank you for your time, and please drop the edit warring and childish user talk page blanking. Thank you. Toccata quarta (talk) 09:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I would like some clarification of your interpretation for WP:OPENPARA, then. Because to me, WP:OPENPARA says that the coutry of birth is not to be mentioned, and the relevant nationalities are the ones relevant to the context of the creation of notable work. I will not claim to be a qualified expert in Chopin's work, but even if he was already composing in Poland, it seem to me that most of his most notable works were done in Paris. So to me, WP:OPENPARA support "Polish-French composer". Tokidokix (talk) 08:35, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Blanking your own talk page is allowed, per WP:BLANKING. Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2Awwsome (talk • contribs) 19:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems a bit ridiculous that a guy with a French name and French nationality would be listed as "Polish" without qualificagtion. Personally I have no dog in this fight, but I do believe that you're trying to pull the wool over the reader's eyes by denying that someone called "Frédéric Chopin" is in any sense French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.222.192.243 (talk) 23:54, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

That's resolvable: call him "Fryderyk", as he was baptized in Poland. As for the French surname, what are all those Americans doing with English, French, German, Italian, Polish, Russian, Turkish, Indian, Chinese, Egyptian, Haitian, etc., names? Nihil novi (talk) 04:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Except for the small detail that he wrote his own name in French, not Polish. But, if you so insist, change his name to "Fryderyk" then. And change his surname to "Szopen" while you're at it. And are you sure Wojciech Żywny wasn't Polish? You should look into that. Certainly Marie Curie was Polish...
Nihil novi, would you care to explain to me why you have edited three articles so that the Marie Curie, born in Poland but moved to France as a young age is listed as "French-Polish"; Wojciech Żywny, born in Czech but moved to Poland at a young age, is listed as "Czech-born Polish"; and Frédéric Chopin here is listed solely as "Polish"? 178.222.192.243 (talk) 19:52, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
A rose, by any other name, is still a rose.
The great Finnish patriot Johan Julius Christian Sibelius chose, in his published works, to use the French version of his given name Johan. Did that make this famous composer, Jean Sibelius, a Frenchman or any less a Finn?
And I do not take responsibility for the work of other editors of an article. Nihil novi (talk) 22:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Jean Sibelius did not hold French citizenship. Nor was he commonly referred to as "French" or "French-Finnish". T178.222.192.243 (talk) 23:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
You're also responsible for listing Wojciech Żywny as "Polish" too, are you not? 178.222.192.243 (talk) 23:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Did Chopin describe himself as French?
After World War II, the future Nobel laureate Józef Rotblat (Joseph Rotblat) decided not to return to a Russian-dominated Poland and took out British citizenship. He spent most of his life in Britain but described himself as a "Pole with a British passport." Chopin had been in an analogous situation a century earlier, in France. Nihil novi (talk) 05:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
You didn't answer my questions. I don't think you'll find anyone who denies Chopin was Polish. But you'd have a hard time finding eminent sources who would deny that he was in any sense French also - due to the fact that he applied for and received French citizenship. But I see this "argument", if these posts even dignify such a description, is going nowhere. Do what you will. And please do change the title to "Fryderyk Szopen", by your own reasoning this is appropriate. 109.92.238.217 (talk) 11:10, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
See WP:UCN. Toccata quarta (talk) 15:01, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Ah, the plot thickens. So, Toccata quarta, you agree his real name was actually "Fryderyk Szopen" then? Interesting... 109.92.238.217 (talk) 19:49, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I've added a reliable source saying he was Polish-French. No sources previously existed saying he was either Polish-French or Polish.2Awwsome 19:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Even my compromise saying his nationality was disputed has been undone, and the sources I used removed. We need further discussion2Awwsome 09:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

One of the users continuously keeps writing that Chopin was "Polish-French" in this article. I specially created a subsection called "Nationality" in which I use documented evidence to prove that Chopin viewed himself as a Pole, not as being French, and felt foreign when exiled in France. I used the sources that user keeps putting back in to that section. From the sources I use, it is clear that Chopin viewed himself as a Pole, and so did contemporaries as have historians. Thus the sources that call him "Polish-French" are few, the exception, and largely inaccurate. Chopin is linked to Polishness; his music reflects Polish nationalism strongly, and he was a passionate Polish patriot. I even use a source that says that it was never disputed that Chopin was a Pole. Also, it is worth noting that Chopin's French-born father (Gunter Grass's mother was of Polish-Kashubian origin, so why don't we call him a "Polish-German" writer? Why isn't Albert Camus - who was born in Algeria and whose mother was a Spaniard - a "French-Spanish-Algerian" writer? We don't but this user's logic we should) had Polish ancestry and moved to Poland at the tender age of 16 and fought in Poland's anti-Russian insurgencies and became assimilated into Polish society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mazurczak88 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Inferences from sources are original research. 3 v 6 is not a small minority. 2Awwsome 18:16, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
If you would, make that 3 to 7. I don't have a dog in this fight except to point out the general absurdity of hyphenated citizenship. (You might want to look at French people#Nationality, citizenship, ethnicity for further insight on this. I don't see any great move afoot to classify Frenchmen in France by their various hyphens. Else we'd have Greco-French, Celto-French and a half hundred others. Trilobitealive (talk) 01:50, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Looking for help integrating new Musopen Chopin content

Hello,

Musopen is in the process of launching a project to record and release the works of Frederic Chopin for free. As part of this project we will also be writing and releasing content for most of the pieces (liner notes). I wanted to post here in case anyone wanted to either help write content or integrate what we create with existing Misplaced Pages Chopin articles.

The project is here: www.kickstarter.com/projects/Musopen/set-chopin-free

Please let me know if you'd be interested in helping or have any general tips for us.

Sincerely, Aaron — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.11.29 (talk) 17:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

More refs

Hi, I'm going through the article and referencing whatever I can, and I will be adding quite a few {{citation needed}}s. I currently have access to Zamoyski's book, but once I've referenced everything I can from it I will probably look in the other sources. The tags are there so that we know which bits the refs refer to and which bits need referencing. I don't intend to tag bomb. Best wishes, RainCity471 13:13, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Just adding that for know I'm just focusing on the refs, not the formatting. I'm probably putting in lots of duplicate refs, but I'll clear that up after everythings reffed. In my opinion, it's better to have lots of refs formatted badly than to have only a few well-formatted ones. Best wishes, RainCity471 (Whack!) 20:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it has been discussed to death before

Type in "nationality" into the field in the archive box. There's at least ten relevant discussions in the past.

Unless there's some brand new development or completely novel argument, please respect WP:CONSENSUS and drop the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and the edit warring. Thanks.  Volunteer Marek  18:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

What consensus? Those sections seem to be arguments 2Awwsome 18:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

And for this kind of article, and this issue in particular, the Telegraph is simply not a reliable source. Not to mention that it doesn't say what you claim it says. Volunteer Marek  18:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

If newspapers are not reliable, why is there a 'cite news' option? And it does say that it is disputed.2Awwsome 18:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Read the archives first. Then come up with a *new* argument or stop wasting people's time. Volunteer Marek  18:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Aren't sources given more weight than arguments (not agreement) on the talk page, per WP:RS and WP:NOR? 2Awwsome
Read the archives first. We've been over this ground. What matter is weight of sources. Volunteer Marek  00:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
For example . Volunteer Marek  00:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Talk page discussions are not reliable sources. See WP:RS and WP:NOR2Awwsome 13:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
You know, blatant trolling won't make people to take you more seriously.--Staberinde (talk) 15:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

A middle ground might be an option presented at the Curie article, Polish, French-naturalized. I definitely would not say French-Polish, if the compromise isn't accepted, then Polish would be my vote. I do agree that anyone who does start a lame edit war in the lame edit war article should be completely ignored. :) Does the editor questioning the article actual write any articles? I'm just looking at the User contribution listing ... Ajh1492 (talk) 16:31, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I mainly just make minor edits, and Volunteer Marek made the first revert in the WP:LAME, your statement is also a personal attack. And it isn't really much of a compromise. Also see WP:RS. 2Awwsome 16:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm looking back at your contribution list (and diffs) and a see a rather long list of reverts and fact tags. I'm just making a statement of fact. Volunteer Marek knows that this article is one of the "touchy ones" on EN:WP. And Staberinde does bring up the good point that you did edit the Chopin section of WP:Lamest edit wars - which only makes the point that article is trying to make. Many moons ago I too was like you, trying to patrol the wikispaces looking to right the wrongs all before breakfast. But the best way to help is to (a) not take this whole WP thing seriously -if a fact is slightly wrong, the earth does NOT stop spinning on it's axis and (b) put your energy into doing some heavy editing on articles that are of interest to you and need some help - there a LOT of stub articles that need help. If you'd like a mentor, I'd be glad to help where I can. Ajh1492 (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Almost all of my reverts are reverts of vandalism or unsourced content additions. And attack the content, not the contributor 2Awwsome 17:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
No, all your reverts are mindless, disruptive edit warring, many with misleading and false edit summaries. In all the edit warring you've been engaged in since October 19 there's not a single reversion of vandalism. And as has been pointed out to you, there's over 8000 sources to choose from to source a trivial fact. Volunteer Marek  12:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
If you actually bothered to look at my contributions you'd see that what you are saying is false. And please see WP:RS. 2Awwsome 12:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Not as far as this article goes. Volunteer Marek  12:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
My contributions were being talked about, not my edits to this article. The same could be said about your edits to the article. 2Awwsome 12:46, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Chopin's nationality

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Should we mention Chopin's nationality as Polish or Polish-French? A debate on this has been simmering on for sometime now.

Here are some of the discussions pertaining to this issue

As consensus has and will always change, here are some solutions which are being considered for proposal:

  • Solution A - Describe Chopin as Polish in the lead
  • Solution B - Describe Chopin as Polish-French in the lead
  • Solution C - Describe Chopin as Polish and French in the lead
  • Solution D - Describe Chopin as Polish, French-naturalized in the lead
  • Solution E - Do not describe his nationality in the lead. Discuss it in the body of the article.

Please weigh-in, indicating the solution(s) you support using the example format below. Include a brief explanation of your rationale. Or, alternatively, if you have some idea which hasn't previously been put forward, please let us know!

Example format

  • Support A - He is clearly a Polish. - Example 1 (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2257 (UTC)
  • Support C - He is of Polish and French Nationality - Example 2 (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2257 (UTC)
  • Support E - It is too tough of an issue to deal with. Let's not mention it. - Example 3 (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2257 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions/comments/opinions in advance!

Please note that this RfC should not be construed as a vote rather than an attempt to measure consensus. As always let's keep the conversations at a civilized level and focus completely on content, not contributors or their motives.

How many times do I have to refer you to WP:GHITS and WP:NPOV? It's a factor of much less than 10, because (And I've pointed this out to you repeatedly) adding words greatly decreases the number of Google search results. 2Awwsome 14:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Support D to indicate that he composed and achieved fame while living in France. Also, all that discussion about his nationality and how he always considered himself Polish should be moved from the first paragraph of the lead into a later paragraph. The first paragraph should be about why he is notable, it should be concerned with his music and his work. FurrySings (talk) 12:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


Much as I disagree with some of the POV-pushing here, primary sources usually should not be used for determining nationality. Toccata quarta (talk) 14:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
The POV you and the other members of your tag team are pushing is nationalist propaganda, the POV I am 'pushing' is neutral. Read policies before making hypocritical personal attacks. 2Awwsome 18:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  1. I'm not Polish, nor am I aware of having Polish ancestors.
  2. "You are engaging in POV-pushing" is not a personal attack; "you are a(n) " is. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:41, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Where did I say that? 2Awwsome 18:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Say what? You accused me of "pushing ... nationalist propaganda", and you deemed "POV-pushing"—a concept to which you have also referred—a personal attack. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Just because I prefer a neutral POV to your completely biased one, it doesn't mean I'm a POV pusher. And where did I say "you are a(n) "? 2Awwsome 18:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
You didn't say that; after all, I never accused you of making a personal attack. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
It isn't mentioned, because it was removed and then the page was protected to the wrong version 2Awwsome 19:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Current version says in the lead "Although Chopin's father was a Polonized Frenchman and Chopin himself was exiled in France from the age of 20 until his death, the composer always regarded himself as a Pole rather than a Frenchman" then outside the lead in the first section we say "Chopin's father, Nicolas Chopin, was a Frenchman from Lorraine who had emigrated to Poland in 1787 at the age of sixteen" - thus we can all imply hes of French heritage because of his fathers. This is how most bio confront the situation as we do here - V. K. Subramanian (2004). The Great Ones. Abhinav Publications. p. 225. ISBN 978-81-7017-421-9.. -- Moxy (talk) 19:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
By 'most bios' are you referring to the number of Google hits or the sources provided (which is 5 v 4)? And the article mentions that he was not French. 2Awwsome 19:38, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
General statement - out of all the "book sources" (dont care about Google hits of non scholarly websites or news papers) I can find only one small bio that mentions both Polish-French at William J. Roberts (2004). France: A Reference Guide from the Renaissance to the Present. Infobase Publishing. p. 214. ISBN 978-0-8160-4473-3. -- Moxy (talk) 19:57, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
But did you search for Polish-French? And are you sure Encyclopedia Britannica is non-scholarly? 2Awwsome 20:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
We are only here to regurgitate what the majority of sources say and in the manner they say it. We have lots of space here thus we have more then enough room to explain the situation and not just a small bio trying to jam all in a few paragraphs. We have done this in the article pretty well I think (first time here today). Even non scholarly articles like this new paper confront the situation. So from what I am reading all over they refer to his "nationally" as Polish and in the same breath say he was "ethnically" half-French. -- Moxy (talk) 20:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
And by 'majority' do you mean 5 vs 4? Or are you talking about 5 vs 0 because the 4 supporting the fact that he was Polish-French removed by a biased POV pusher? 2Awwsome 20:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes Britannica and the book France : a reference guide from the Renaissance to the present say this - in the case of Britannica they are trying to get you to read on with a subscription....thus both are very small bios trying to say a lot in a confined space. The book Jacqueline Dineen (1998). Frederic Chopin. Lerner Publications. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-57505-248-9. does not say this in the copy I can read. - as in his "nationality" was French. As for Northern light : the Skagen painter I cant see it but why a panting book as a source? So from what I can see in the majority of source that I have found today that cover the topic in-depth say his "nationally" is Polish with a French background - as we explain in this article. I see no problem in expanding the section "Nationality" but to add this contentions point in the lead as if it was fact without explanation as we do later is not serving our readers well. -- Moxy (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Support E. Came here via RFC, so not involved. I like the way NPR cut the cake. It is ok to not put the nationality of people front and center and then give full details late. Say he was Polish-Born in the lead, then have the nationality section down below really go into it. That is informative while not distracting from the guy's works and life. I know the issue is important, but I think being broad in the lead and having a good nationality section could make for a much improved article. Best of luck. AbstractIllusions (talk) 07:32, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Sources are not unreliable just because they oppose your view. And Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source, see WP:NOTRS. 2Awwsome 16:35, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia Britannica's expression, "Polish-French", is sloppy. What on earth does it mean?
Does it refer to a given individual's birthplace, ethnicity, sense of national identity, or citizenship, or to some combination of these?
Or does the expression refer to these characteristics in relation to the individual's parents?
Perhaps a mathematician could calculate for us the doubtless large number of possible combinations of characteristics that can lurk behind the vague expression, "Polish-French"? Nihil novi (talk) 10:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Support A, or (less-preferred, because not really relevant in the lead, but acceptable) D. At the time when I was active editing WP, (and was hoping to bring this article up to GA quality) I gave a lot of thought to this issue. All reliable musical dictionaries, critics and biographers regard Chopin as Polish. And he regarded himself as Polish. There is no problem providing citations for all this. The fact that he took French nationality (which was a convenience for him) made him legally French, I suppose, but this is trivial in the context of his music, which did not draw on French sources, as I hope the maturing article will point out when it starts being edited properly once again. I don't see in Misplaced Pages, e.g., Winston Churchill being described as American , even though his mother was an American and he himself received honorary American citizenship. Incidentally the cluster of notes in the first two sentences of the lead section should surely be removed, according to WP:MOS. The right place to explain in cited detail about squabbles of this sort is in the text, not the lead. I also believe the second sentence of the lead belongs in the body of the article as being WP:UNDUE in this section; later in the lead in the second paragraph Chopin's residence in France is quite adequately described, and the 'after age of 20' doesn't need to be anticipated in the first paragraph. Best, --Smerus (talk) 18:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Agree completely with Smerus. The sentence "Although Chopin's father was a Polonized Frenchman and Chopin himself was exiled in France from the age of 20 until his death, the composer always regarded himself as a Pole rather than a Frenchman." should be removed from the lead altogether - all this polemic over his nationality is not nearly as important as his impact on piano technique and composition, as well as his importance in the emerging "star" culture surrounding great solo performers (especially pianists) - points which, in fact, are undercovered in the article itself. Ravpapa (talk) 18:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Further my post supporting A: From Moritz Karasowski, Frederic Chopin: His Life and Letters (1906), volume II, page 368: "When remains were lowered into the grave, Polish earth was scattered on the coffin. It was the same that Chopin had brought from the village of Wola nineteen years before as a memorial of his beloved fatherland, and shortly before his death had requested that if he might not rest in Polish soil his body might at least be covered with his native earth. Chopin's heart, which had beaten so warmly, and suffered so deeply for his country was, according to his desire, sent to the land whose sun had shone on his happy youth; it is preserved ad interim in the Church of the Sacred Cross at Warsaw."
Can we not let this poor piano-playing Pole (to paraphrase Paderewski) rest in peace?
I move to close this RFP. Ravpapa (talk) 13:19, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
As the sole Arthropod-American Misplaced Pages editor, I strongly second the motion. This whole thing is an example of what happens when you have a strongly POV minority trying to change articles. Trilobitealive (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Don't you mean the NPOV minority? Anyway, WP:RS and WP:NPOV are core content policies, which cannot be superseded by consensus. So this means nothing. 2Awwsome 16:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
That's not how it works. Volunteer Marek  17:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Protected

Note that I have fully protected the article for two weeks, given persistent and ongoing edit-warring regarding the issue raised in the RfC above. If the RfC reaches a decision before protection expires, feel free to unprotect or request unprotection; otherwise, unfortunately for now any edits unrelated to nationality will need to be addressed via {{editrequest}}. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Revert of Volunteer Marek's POV removal of statement (sources were removed as well). 2Awwsome 18:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Assuming you are referring to this edit: request denied. Please re-read my statement above and note that until the RfC is closed, no one should be making or requesting any more changes dealing with his nationality. If you think that issues are being overlooked above, feel free to point that out civilly in the discussion above, or to ask for other opinions at WP:NPOVN or elsewhere. Please also be aware that you came very close to being blocked over edit-warring here, so continuing this dispute is a very bad idea. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
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