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Are obviously a violation of ]. the lede is meant to summarize the article, not give a history lesson on demographic changes. ] (]) 17:30, 23 November 2013 (UTC) Are obviously a violation of ]. the lede is meant to summarize the article, not give a history lesson on demographic changes. ] (]) 17:30, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


== Deleted Contributions ==

I have also posted this to ] Please continue the discussion there to resolve the problem.

I am trying to contribute to history and size of population of Muslims in articles such as ]. I have several peer-reviewed articles in scientific conference proceedings and journals and a recent 600 page book . So I added some results in ] and other continent and cited by book. Interestingly, some editors such as ], ] and ] keep reverting my contribution (basically deleting all of it and the source). They keep citing COI or self-publishing, none of which applies here. When I refute their allegations they come up with another excuse and keep threatening of blocking my account. Such "referees" or "editors" may have other motives that they are not disclosing. The job of an editor or contributor is to make the article better, not deleting all sources and information. Better means: checking facts, better reference, etc. ] (]) 17:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

My contribution was as follows (but got all deleted, either by an ill-informed editor or ill-intention):

Europe was the third continent; after Asia and Africa, to which Islam has entered. Muslims crossed the Gibraltar strait in 711AD, conquering all the Iberian Peninsula by 715AD. They kept going north and conquered half of current France, reaching 100Km southeast of Paris in725AD, until they were defeated in the Battle of Tours (Balat Ashuhada) in 732AD. They were driven out of France by 759AD, but returned and conquered the Mediterranean coast of France from 891AD to 973AD. In the ninth century Muslims controlled south of the Italian Peninsula for forty years and briefly controlled western coast of the Italian Peninsula. Muslims remained in control of southern Spain until the fall of Grenada in 1492AD. Muslims also controlled East Europe under the Golden Horde Empire in 1313AD. They remained in Crimea, in southern Ukraine, until 1796AD, when the Muslim Crimean Khanate was cap-tured by the Russian Empire.

Muslims controlled the Balkan Peninsula for several centuries, starting with the conquest of Istanbul in 1453, under the Ottoman Empire. They kept going north until they besieged Vienna in 1528 and 1683. Muslims were defeated in the second attempt and kept retreating south since then. However, there are several Muslim majority countries that remain in the Balkans today: Albania, Bosnia, East Thrace (Turkey) and Kosovo. All Mediterranean Islands were under Muslim control at some point: The Balearics (903 – 1232), Crete (827 – 961, 1645 – 1897), Corsica (806 – 930), Rhodes (653 – 658, 717 – 718, 1522 – 1912), Sardinia (809 – 1015), Sicily (831 – 1091), and Malta (870 – 1091). As for Cyprus, it was listed under Asia, and controlled by Muslims 647 – 965, 1426 – 1460, 1518 – 1914, and the northern third of the island is under Muslim control since 1974.

Thus, the Muslim population changed from 24,000 or 0.1% of the total European population in 700AD, to 0.90 million or 2.5% in 800AD, to 1.87 million or 5.2% in 900AD, to 2.4 million or 6.6% in 1000AD, to 2.7 million or 6.0% in 1100AD, to 2.9 million or 5.3% in 1200AD, to 3.0 million or 4.7% in 1300AD, to 2.7 million or 3.7% in 1400AD, to 2.7 million or 3.2% in 1500AD, to 3.1 million or 2.9% in 1600AD, to 3.4 million or 2.8% in 1700AD, to 4.0 million or 2.2% in 1800AD, to 9 million or 2.1% in 1900, to 37 million or 5.1% in 2000, to 46 million or 6.2% in 2020, and is projected to reach 68 million or 10.7% by 2100, then 96 million or 14.1% by 2200, and then 124 million or 17.0% by 2300.

] (]) 17:33, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

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Edit war

Really, five days of edit war and not a single post on the talk page? Anyway to encourage discussion I've protected both this page and Islam in Germany. In the interests of fairness, one page is protected with the poll data included and the other protected without it. – Steel 12:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

In my view the repeated removal of the poll is no more than a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
  1. The poll is representative ("Ergebnisbericht zu einer repräsentativen Befragung von Türken in Deutschland", p. 1), not random. And it is recent, from July-August 2012, not outdated.
  2. The pollster is notable: Liljeberg Research International, is a subsidiary company of Info GmbH, the oldest public opinion research company in eastern Germany.
  3. The results of the poll are notable: its results were reported and discussed in a number of leading German press, online and TV media. A selection:
  1. Der Spiegel, one of the two leading political magazines: 1
  2. Die Welt, one of the four leading daily newspapers: 2
  3. Heise online: 3.
  4. ZDF, one of the three largest TV stations: 4.
All in all, its polling results of the largest Muslim minority in the largest EU country are clearly relevant for this article as well as Islam in Germany. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
The material seems reliably sourced and relevant. I have no objection to its inclusion. Athenean (talk) 15:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
no, it does not belong here. as noted by other editors "turks in germany" is a more appropriate page.-- altetendekrabbe  19:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
"the largest Muslim minority in the largest EU country" (Gun Powder Ma) The Islam in Europe page is not about Muslim minority or largest EU country or Muslims in Germany or Muslims in EU. Deals with it. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
"the largest Muslim minority in the largest EU country" (Gun Powder Ma) According to Pew Forum 2011, in 2010 there were 4,119,000 Muslims in Germany. Two thirds of 4,119,000 is 2,746,000. According to Pew Forum 2011, in 2010 there were 2,869,000 Muslims in the UK, 4,704,000 in France, 16,379,000 in Russia, 44,100,000 in whole Europe. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
The mentionned answers of the poll are a few answer among several decades/dozen in the poll. The poll is one poll among likely several dozen or hundred polls about the same subject during the last 20 years. The Turks in Germany, for those who are also Muslims, are a few part of the Muslims in Europe (a few millions among several dozen million), so the Muslims Turks in Germany are not representative of Muslims in Europe. One § about that is WP:UNDUE (and maybe cherry picked) in Islam in Europe. As wrote Ceddyfresse, this has "nothing to do here. Put it at Turks in Germany". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

There are a number of factual errors and misunderstandings in your summary:

  1. Factual error: Germany is the largest EU country and the Turks are the largest the largest Muslim minority in Germany, accounting for two thirds of the Muslim population according to the German Ministry of Interior (see Zusammenfassung "Muslimisches Leben in Deutschland").
  2. Germany is in Europe, the Turks in Germany are Muslims and the poll asked specifically for attitudes related to Islam, hence the poll is directly relevant for a topic called "Islam in Europe". This is logical.
  3. This poll received wide media coverage. It is not "among likely several dozen or hundred polls about the same subject" in Germany. If so, prove your point.

What you are trying to argue is that this poll is relevant for Islam in Germany, but not Islam in Europe, which is absurd, given that Islam in Europe includes Islam in Germany. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:32, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

To who are you talking? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Obviously to you or did altetendekrabbe provide any kind of argument which could be addressed? :-p Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:32, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
"Obviously to you" No, not obviously. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
"to you" To which part of my writing is this a reply? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
"Factual error: Germany is the largest EU country and the Turks are the largest the largest Muslim minority in Germany" (Gun Powder Ma) I don't get it. Are you claiming that "Germany is the largest EU country and the Turks are the largest the largest Muslim minority in Germany" is a factual error? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
"What you are trying to argue is that this poll is relevant for Islam in Germany" (Gun Powder Ma) I am not. Actually, I removed the poll 4 (four) time from Islam in Germany ( ). Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't get it either. What exactly do you critize in my statement that the Turks are the "largest Muslim minority in the largest EU country". This's correct, they are. They represent two thirds of the Muslim population in Germany according to offial data from the Ministry of Interior.
For the sake of peace and simply moving on to more important contents work, I offer the following compromise. I agree to the removal of the poll from Islam in Europe and we keep it in Turks in Germany and Islam in Germany, where it is immediately relevant given that its findings extend to 100% respectively 66% of the group of persons with which these articles are concerned. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Gun Powder Ma, his suggestion is very reasonable--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:06, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
"They represent two thirds of the Muslim population in Germany according to offial data from the Ministry of Interior." (Gun Powder Ma) That is < 7 % of Muslims in Europe according to Pew Forum 2011. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:23, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
" I offer the following compromise. I agree to the removal of the poll from Islam in Europe and we keep it in Turks in Germany and Islam in Germany" (Gun Powder Ma) This is much better. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:23, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it is only like 7% but in view of the continued lack of transnational polls for Muslims in Europe my take has been that some data is better that no data. Anyway, I consider our dispute then resolved and will ask the admin to unblock the article under the agreed conditions from my post at 20:01, 19 September 2012. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

“The poll is representative” – yeah, it is a representative poll of Turks living in Germany. But it is NOT a representative poll for Islam or muslims in Germany. „Grundgesamtheit für diese Studie waren ca. 2 Millionen Türken in Deutschland“ “Das ist ein Ergebnis der neuen repräsentativen Umfrage des Instituts Info GmbH unter insgesamt 1011 Deutsch-Türken“ The statistical population for this poll were 2 million turks in germany, of whom 1011 german-turks have been regarded precisely. Just have a look at the original poll. This poll starts with regarding the situation of turks:

  1. Length of stay
  2. reason of immigration
  3. which state they regard as homeland
  4. return to turkey
  5. reasons for return to turkey
  6. german language skills


their attitude toward

  1. turkish and german language
  2. turkey and germany
  3. social system in turkey and germany
  4. politics in turkey and germany

After that, there are 21 questions regarding social issues in germany, 3 of whom are “islam related” and 3 are related to the attitude toward other religions followed by at least 40 questions regarding other social issues – none of these are “islam related”. In the end, there is a questions about their religious affiliation, followed by "how religious you belive to be" and "how often you pray on one day".

Now, a neutral person would put such a poll in turks in germany, because the main purpose of this poll is the life of turks in germany.

@ Gun Powder Ma: You cite Zusammenfassung "Muslimisches Leben in Deutschland", but you didn’t mention that this is “die erste bundesweit repräsentative Studie, die Personen aus 49 muslimisch geprägten Herkunftsländern einbezieht und somit einen umfassenden Überblick über das muslimische Leben in Deutschland gibt”. If you really are interested in including a representative poll that has something to do with the article “Islam in Germany”, you would take this 764 paged poll, the first representative poll about muslim life in germany. But I think, that is not your purpose… --Ceddyfresse (talk) 16:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

What you say is neither correct nor relevant (nor free of ad hominem). Please make yourself acquainted with Misplaced Pages:Notability, particularly where it says the common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. This poll has received significant attention from independent sources: it has been discussed in a number of national top media in Germany (see links provided above), and in particular the three answers I cited have been discussed by these independent sources, therefore its findings are notable for Misplaced Pages. In other words: the answers to be included in the WP are not at all a random sample from the poll, but are those which have also been intensively discussed by national media which makes them notable. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:46, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
A question: If a poll mentioning the beliefs of the Turks in Germany is undue weight, how is this not undue weight as well? The poll only applies to French Muslims, i.e. it is the same exact situation. I would also remind Ceddyfresse to remember to abide by WP:NPA. Athenean (talk) 10:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Removed. The user apparently wanted to make a WP:point, ignoring his own line of argument in the process... Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Orientalism

Section of this article uses ref's and quotations from orientalists and their theory, despite the fact that orientalism, it's authors and ideologues shouldn't be used as objective (neutral), reliable, and basic source of informations, particularly not inflammatory quotations such as this example in section of this article.--Santasa99 (talk) 19:03, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Recent changes

Are obviously a violation of WP:LEDE. the lede is meant to summarize the article, not give a history lesson on demographic changes. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:30, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


Deleted Contributions

I have also posted this to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents Please continue the discussion there to resolve the problem.

I am trying to contribute to history and size of population of Muslims in articles such as Islam in Asia. I have several peer-reviewed articles in scientific conference proceedings and journals and a recent 600 page book . So I added some results in Islam in Asia and other continent and cited by book. Interestingly, some editors such as AndyTheGrump, Jreferee and Dolescum keep reverting my contribution (basically deleting all of it and the source). They keep citing COI or self-publishing, none of which applies here. When I refute their allegations they come up with another excuse and keep threatening of blocking my account. Such "referees" or "editors" may have other motives that they are not disclosing. The job of an editor or contributor is to make the article better, not deleting all sources and information. Better means: checking facts, better reference, etc. Hkettani (talk) 17:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

My contribution was as follows (but got all deleted, either by an ill-informed editor or ill-intention):

Europe was the third continent; after Asia and Africa, to which Islam has entered. Muslims crossed the Gibraltar strait in 711AD, conquering all the Iberian Peninsula by 715AD. They kept going north and conquered half of current France, reaching 100Km southeast of Paris in725AD, until they were defeated in the Battle of Tours (Balat Ashuhada) in 732AD. They were driven out of France by 759AD, but returned and conquered the Mediterranean coast of France from 891AD to 973AD. In the ninth century Muslims controlled south of the Italian Peninsula for forty years and briefly controlled western coast of the Italian Peninsula. Muslims remained in control of southern Spain until the fall of Grenada in 1492AD. Muslims also controlled East Europe under the Golden Horde Empire in 1313AD. They remained in Crimea, in southern Ukraine, until 1796AD, when the Muslim Crimean Khanate was cap-tured by the Russian Empire.

Muslims controlled the Balkan Peninsula for several centuries, starting with the conquest of Istanbul in 1453, under the Ottoman Empire. They kept going north until they besieged Vienna in 1528 and 1683. Muslims were defeated in the second attempt and kept retreating south since then. However, there are several Muslim majority countries that remain in the Balkans today: Albania, Bosnia, East Thrace (Turkey) and Kosovo. All Mediterranean Islands were under Muslim control at some point: The Balearics (903 – 1232), Crete (827 – 961, 1645 – 1897), Corsica (806 – 930), Rhodes (653 – 658, 717 – 718, 1522 – 1912), Sardinia (809 – 1015), Sicily (831 – 1091), and Malta (870 – 1091). As for Cyprus, it was listed under Asia, and controlled by Muslims 647 – 965, 1426 – 1460, 1518 – 1914, and the northern third of the island is under Muslim control since 1974.

Thus, the Muslim population changed from 24,000 or 0.1% of the total European population in 700AD, to 0.90 million or 2.5% in 800AD, to 1.87 million or 5.2% in 900AD, to 2.4 million or 6.6% in 1000AD, to 2.7 million or 6.0% in 1100AD, to 2.9 million or 5.3% in 1200AD, to 3.0 million or 4.7% in 1300AD, to 2.7 million or 3.7% in 1400AD, to 2.7 million or 3.2% in 1500AD, to 3.1 million or 2.9% in 1600AD, to 3.4 million or 2.8% in 1700AD, to 4.0 million or 2.2% in 1800AD, to 9 million or 2.1% in 1900, to 37 million or 5.1% in 2000, to 46 million or 6.2% in 2020, and is projected to reach 68 million or 10.7% by 2100, then 96 million or 14.1% by 2200, and then 124 million or 17.0% by 2300.

Hkettani (talk) 17:33, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

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