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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behaviour during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Proposed Remedy #2 incidentally rules on content

This remedy incidentally touches on content by using "Turkish" instead of "Turkish or Ottoman" referring to a time before the foundation of the Turkish Republic: "2) RoslynSKP is indefinitely prohibited from editing any article relating to Turkish military history in and predating World War I." The wording should be adjusted to avoid making an implicit content ruling. Jd2718 (talk) 01:05, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think it does rule on content. I use British English in my draft proposals, but by adopting them that doesn't mean the committee is ruling on content or saying EN-GB should be used by everybody. AGK 07:02, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

The dispute relates to use of the names "Turkish" and "Ottoman" in military history articles. I think it reasonable that the Findings of Fact and Remedies should use "Turkish or Ottoman" when referring to the area of dispute. It's an easy fix: "2) RoslynSKP is indefinitely prohibited from editing any article relating to Ottoman or Turkish military history in and predating World War I." Jd2718 (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Inaccurate findings of fact

Moved from the main page, since only arbitrators are entitled to comment there. — ΛΧΣ 01:28, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring

The "extended period" begins on 24 November with diff 1 an edit which does not change Ottoman/Turkey. All the rest of the first 13 diffs are to do with edits which took place between 26 and 30 November 2013, hardly an extended period.

01:Charge at Huj starts on 24.11.13 with diff 1 which does not show any change to Ottoman/Turkey. Diff 2 on 26.11.13 before MILHIST consensus reverts Jim Sweeney's changing a direct link to a redirect link, diff 3 also before MILHIST consensus diff 4 undoing Jim Sweeney's changing Ottoman to Turkey on limited consensus on 27.11.13 at 00:34 before the MILHIST consensus. In between these edits Jim Sweeney was equally edit warring. The two edits in 02 were trying to argue per the Administrators' noticeboard "status quo".

Of the seven diffs in 03 three are edits by Jim Sweeney. These are diffs 7, 8, and 13 and one is an edit by Anotherclown, diff 11, while diffs 9 and 10 are to the same edit by me. So only two diffs in this section relate to supposed edit waring by me.

The next series of diffs which claim "inaccurate or inadequate" descriptions of these previous diffs, have nothing to do with the previous diffs. Diff 14 is an extensive edit on 6.11.13 when two dubious tags were added, syntax corrected, a place was identified as a village, added the full name of light horse units, and links. All this work is described as "Clean up." Diff 15 "fix link" undid redirect link back to a direct link on 26.11.13 is an accurate description of the edit. Diff 16 undid a link to a redirect claiming "fix link the discussion regarding the colloquial form of Ottoman related only to one article" on 27.11.13 00:34 before MILHIST consensus. Diff 17 inserted full names of light horse units, fixed syntax and name of place, was described as "Clean up" on 6.11.13. Diff 18 added full names of light horse and mounted rifles units, fixed syntax, expanded article, was also adequately described as Expanding article Clean up on 6.11.13 --Rskp (talk) 00:49, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

These diffs do not support the allegation of edit warring. --Rskp (talk) 02:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Remember that the diffs are representative of your wider participation in the dispute. The 'misleading edit summaries' batch highlights that you have not correctly labelled your edits. AGK 07:02, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Ignoring consensus

The MILHIST consensus says "continuing use of "Turkish" where context is clearly in favor of the term." It does not say Turkish should be used "in all articles" when describing the Ottoman troops, as claimed.

Diff 19 edit is described by me as "reinstate POV which relates to the reliance on one source when many are available and to the confusing names of Australian and New Zealand army units)" This does not cite the older ANI thread. Diff 20 links to a edit made at 00:46 on 26.11.13 before the MILHIST consensus, as does diff 21 an edit made at 00:34 on 27.11.13. ONLY diff 22 at 03:33 30.11.13 (Undid revision 583858477 by Anotherclown (talk)the consensus ONLY mentions the Anzac Mounted Division there is no remit to apply that odd agreement to any other articles) 15th (Imperial Service) Cavalry Brigade sort to limit the use of "Turkey" when it was in fact the Ottoman Empire at the time. Rskp (talk) 01:10, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Most of these diffs do not support the allegation of ignoring consensus. Only one tries to keep to the MILHIST consensus which clearly does not extend to all articles to do with the Ottoman Empire in the First World War. --Rskp (talk) 02:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

It is clear to me that the consensus does extend to all relevant articles, which means the diffs do constitute "ignoring consensus". AGK 07:02, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Tenacious editing

Only diff 23 relates to changing Turkey to Ottoman on the talk page of the Battle of Beersheba, the rest relate to personal attacks, which I should have ignored and will most certainly ignore in the future.

Diff 24 collapsed a personal attack, diff 25 reinstated a personal attack tag, while diff 26 replaced "The claim is rubbish" with an rpa tag.

Diff diff 27 added a dubious tag "dubious|Six centuries of the Ottoman Empire, from 1299 to 1923 is not synonymous with the Republic of Turkey" on 16 November well before the MILHIST consensus.

Both the Anzac Mounted Division and the Desert Mounted Corps service histories rely on one 1921 source published before all the official histories. This gives both these articles a very narrow unbalanced account of the units' campaigns as it fails to use the scholarship which has been published since 1921. Diff 29 on 26.11.13 Anzac MD Over reliance on Preston makes article unbalanced see Talk page described "(Undid revision 583064022 by Jim Sweeney (talk)reinstate POV tag one source is not NPOV which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all views ...)." Diff 30 26.11.13 "(Undid revision 583313537 by Jim Sweeney (talk)reinstate POV tag as reliance on one source not NPOV)" and diff 31 Desert Mounted Corps over reliance on Preston see Talk page. Jim Sweeney could equally be accused of "tenacious editing" here. --Rskp (talk) 02:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree or find anything compelling in that rebuttal. AGK 07:02, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Locus of dispute too narrowly defined

I think that the current finding on the locus of dispute is too narrow: the issues with RoslynSKP's editing have run across multiple topics associated with the fighting between the British Empire and the Ottoman Empire in World War I (principally the Sinai and Palestine Campaign of this war), and isn't really specific to the most recent dispute. The main result of the excessively narrow focus is that proposed remedy 2 isn't well calibrated: it would be better to institute a suspended topic ban on the British Empire-Ottoman Empire conflict during World War I (broadly construed if need be) than on all of Turkish military history prior to 1919 (which is a huge field given that Turkish military history dates back to before the birth of the Ottoman Empire in the medieval era). The proposed remedy 3 is appropriate though. Nick-D (talk) 10:13, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

@Nick-D: I wouldn't get too hung up on the locus. Except in cases where the locus actually isn't unclear and needs clarified for the benefit of arbitrators and parties, loci are just very quick ways of contextualising the dispute – basically for the benefit of AE admins and other future readers. Are there any pages which Remedy 2 might not catch when it ought to? Is your concern that the remedy may include other pages not strictly related to this dispute (which would be too broad a locus, not a too narrow one)? Also, do you have any thoughts on Remedy 1?

Thanks for your patience and assistance with framing these remedies. None of us are experts in this field, so assistance with the technical aspects of the case has been very helpful. AGK 10:09, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

@AGK: Remedy 2 will certainly cover the locus as I see it as it's so broad, but if it's ever activated it would prohibit RoslynSKP from working on a wide range of articles on topics completely outside the World War I era, which is where their problematic behaviour has been centred (for instance, if read literally it would apply to articles concerning the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 in which Turkish forces destroyed the remnants of the Eastern Roman Empire). As RoslynSKP's problematic behaviour is largely centred around promoting relatively "old-fashioned" British historiographical concepts and terminology in the World War I era, there's also a real risk that she would move onto articles on the Western Front in France or similar if the ban was Turkish-specific. If the committee's preference is for a broad (and hence difficult to wikilawyer) remedy, I'd suggest that this be something like "RoslynSKP is indefinitely prohibited from editing any article relating to World War I" (my preference as it's clear and covers the general problematic area), or at least "RoslynSKP is indefinitely prohibited from editing any article relating to Turkish military history in the World War I era" (which is clearer, and I suspect is what you were actually getting at with this remedy).

In regards to Remedy 1, it ends the dispute here and sends a clear message, but is also overly specific given that RoslynSKP has engaged in similar - but not as severe - behaviour over "ANZAC"/"Anzac" and a few article titles (Battle of Abu Tellul/Affair of Abu Tellul for instance). I actually don't think that this remedy is necessary given that the combination of remedy 3 and findings of fact 2 and 3 should prevent the edit warring over names and give admins who respond to any further problematic behaviour some clear guidance. Nick-D (talk) 10:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. The committee's thinking seems to favour being too broad, rather than too narrow and thus allowing future misconduct in some areas to slip through the cracks. This actually applies to basically every arbitration case: excessive leniency has always been avoided, because arbitration is supposed to be the final stage of dispute resolution. We'll see how it goes, I suppose. Remedies can always be narrowed in a few months, by amendment request. AGK 11:03, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments

I don't know if it's relevant now, but could someone tell me whether RoslynSKP's use of "status quo ante bellum" in various edit summaries was actually based on anything legitimate or just a pretentious use of words used to ignore consensus, as I never quite determined where that term originated? I think it came from the ANI thread once TomStar81 got involved with his "white peace" effort, and was taken to the extreme by RoslynSKP. Would like to clarify whether it was just another part of the tendentious behaviour exhibited. Ma®©usBritish 14:14, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

The term "status quo" is standard and I don't have a real problem with that wording. "Status quo ante bellum" (literally, "the situation as it existed before the war") is a bit aggressive—"WP:BATTLEGROUND" in almost a literal sense—and I'd prefer that that wording not be used. The wars and battles studied and edited about by our military history editors should not include wars and battles fought on Misplaced Pages itself. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:04, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to read so much into the term. What seems more likely to me is that RSKP just preferred the full phrase, or thought it sounded better.

As I recall, it was actually another editor who first used the phrase in this dispute (it may have been @TomStar, but I can't be sure), and RSKP just adopted it from there. The most pressing problem in her use of the term, in my view, is that the ANI thread honouring the status quo was clearly superseded a few weeks later (see also the "Ignoring consensus" proposed finding). AGK 09:40, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it was I who first used used the term during the ANI thread, and it was intended to get both editors off each others throats and seated and the peace table so we could move forward with discussions without having the editorial issue undermine the whole process. At the time, what the edit war and all, it seemed appropriate to use it. TomStar81 (Talk) 13:43, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for explaining. Used once or twice, it was a good combination of apt and ironic. Used over and over again as I read through the evidence in this case, it made a different impression. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Also, in proposed remedies, I do not see anything to remedy RolsynSKP's long history of abuse of maintenance tags. Personally, I think there should be a strict restriction on these, even if it means banning her from using any tags for X months if that keeps things simple. I think it would be unwise to ignore the fact that tags played a major part in her war edits and should be sanctioned for a period of time so that during her "suspended topic ban" she can learn to edit without being tempted by any tags whatsoever, which will help promote more focus on her editing than her disagreements. Ma®©usBritish 14:14, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Misuse of tags would fall under "disruptive editing", which is typically prevented with a simple block. Under another proposed remedy, a block for disruption to the topic would also trigger a full topic ban, so I think an additional remedy is redundant. AGK 22:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I actually just posted a proposal on this before I saw this subthread. I've now read AGK's response; we'll see what the other arbitrators think. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:04, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

@SilkTork: re: "Better for Jim to have asked for assistance." – Jim's contrib history is packed with examples of him approaching project talk pages for advice on various matters (simply search for "new section" under his contrib history with "Misplaced Pages talk" namespace fitered, to see that he is undeniably collaborative). In terms of inviting people to assist with content disputes, relating to this case or past incidents involving RolsynSKP, I've pulled a few OP examples from MilHist: which often lead to article talk pages. As I stated in my evidence, in many cases the response to Jim's concerns were either very weak from MilHist, no admin responses have ever resulted, or many discussions resulted in RoslynSKP assailing third-party MilHist members with accusations of bias for Jim's opinions (i.e. her "lock step trio" remark is one example). As a result, many who entered disputes in good faith often withdrew because RoslynSKP was too tiresome to deal with due to her aggressive filibuster techniques. One can only sympathise with Jim's position, in that many requests for support have fallen on deaf ears leaving him vulnerable to being provoked by RoslynSKP's actions (i.e. the dozens of arbitrary reverts I listed would piss even the meekest editor off). Ma®©usBritish 15:20, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not that familiar with Arbcom wording, but any reasonable person would read "Jim ... is reminded to ... use dispute resolution" to mean that Arbcom is finding that he was remiss in using dispute resolution, which doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence. I'm not sure that's what you meant to say, Silk. (I'm not saying anything one way or the other on the edit warring, only the dispute resolution.) - Dank (push to talk) 16:23, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I have to say that when I was going through the history of this matter as part of the process of putting my evidence together I was surprised at how little use had been made of the formal dispute resolution processes. There was a lot of arguing the same points on article talk pages only, relatively little use of central noticeboards and much too little use of various mechanisms for asking admins to step in. I don't think that this is Jim-specific though: a general reminder to all the involved editors that they should seek external views when debate becomes bogged down would be in order IMO. Nick-D (talk) 22:52, 20 December 2013 (UTC)