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:Please see ], Question 4. ''']<font color="darkgreen">]</font>''' 21:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:Please see ], Question 4. ''']<font color="darkgreen">]</font>''' 21:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:(e/c) Re "has their name been changed and if not why are they not requirements before changing the name?": see the FAQ at the top of this page and, for more detailed discussion, peruse this page's many archives, where the questioned has been discussed in detail numerous times.<br>Re "has the transgenderism been confirmed medically?": yes, Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder, as stated in the first paragraph of the article.<br>Cheers, ] (]) 21:15, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:(e/c) Re "has their name been changed and if not why are they not requirements before changing the name?": see the FAQ at the top of this page and, for more detailed discussion, peruse this page's many archives, where the questioned has been discussed in detail numerous times.<br>Re "has the transgenderism been confirmed medically?": yes, Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder, as stated in the first paragraph of the article.<br>Cheers, ] (]) 21:15, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
== Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2013 ==
{{edit semi-protected|<!-- Page to be edited -->|answered=no}}
<!-- Begin request -->
The article should say her name is Bradley Edward "Chelsea" Manning. Since she hasn't change her name legally yet. You can use Chelsea in the title though.
A user has requested that the Good article community check whether this article's GA status is in need of reassessment. This is just an alert and reassessment may not be necessary: any uninvolved editor can remove this tag.
Please place new discussions at the bottom of the talk page.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Chelsea Manning article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
To view an answer, click the link to the right of the question.
Q1: Why is this article titled Chelsea Manning?
A majority of sources now use the name "Chelsea" when referring to Manning which would make it the common name. There has been consensus among editors since October 2013 that this name should be used.
Historically, the first 2013 formal move discussion closed, and a committee of three uninvolved and experienced admins determined the move to Chelsea Manning should be reverted back to Bradley. Discussions since that close upheld that waiting 30 days was a good idea and the time should be spent making the case for a new move discussion. In a subsequent move discussion, consensus was against a proposal of "Private Manning" as the article title. A new discussion about moving the article back to "Chelsea Manning" started on September 30 and was closed on October 8 with a consensus to move the article to "Chelsea Manning".
Q2: Why does the article refer to Manning as she?
MOS:IDENTITY says: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example 'man/woman', 'waiter/waitress', 'chairman/chairwoman') that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and ' ' may be used where necessary)."
Q3: Why is Manning in transgender categories?
The fact that Manning is transgender, and was a transgender inmate, a transgender soldier, etc, is notable and defining and has been discussed in multiple reliable sources (which are cited in the article). See Misplaced Pages:FAQ/Categorization for more information.
Q4: I feel that Misplaced Pages is being biased against (or towards) my beliefs here, what should I do?
Misplaced Pages policy mandates that articles reflect the content of reliable sources and be written from a neutral point of view, avoiding advocating for any particular perspective. Minority ideas and opinions must not be given undue weight or promotion in Misplaced Pages articles. It is impossible for coverage of real-world controversies to leave everyone happy – ideas change and adapt over time, and partisan viewpoints are typically entrenched and unable to self-assess bias – but seeking and maintaining neutrality is an ongoing process. Concerns over bias can be addressed with bold editing following the WP:BRD cycle or by starting a civil and constructive discussion at this talk page to suggest article improvements.
Q5: Why does Misplaced Pages include Chelsea Manning's deadname?
Misplaced Pages's guidelines say that we should include the birth name for a living transgender person in the lead sentence only if the person was notable under that name. This is the case for Chelsea Manning. By doing this, we ensure people who have only heard of Manning as her deadname can still find and recognize the article.
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.
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RM, Arrest of Bradley Manning → Bradley Manning, Moved, 3 September 2010, discussion
RM, Bradley Manning → Alleged leaks of Bradley Manning, No consensus to move, 8 Dec 2010, discussion
Move/revert, Bradley Manning → Breanna Manning, Move was reverted, 5 May 2012, discussion
RM, Chelsea Manning → Bradley Manning, initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" is reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning", 31 August 2013, discussion
RM, Bradley Manning → Private Manning, Not moved, 4 September 2013, discussion
RM, Bradley Manning → Chelsea Manning, Moved, 1 October 2013, discussion
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
Topic dropped per Arbcom case and admin request, IP in question blocked for non useful edits.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
From time to time an editor will try to change the feminine pronouns to masculine. It would be helpful when reverting such an edit to give in the edit summary a link to a section of this talk page where consensus decided to use feminine pronouns for this article. I looked but I had trouble finding it. Could anyone suggest such a section that we can link to? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I doubt a link will make a difference. The main editing page already has a disclaimer about changing pronouns, so chances are if somebody chooses to edit them anyway they are doing it to make a statement and not out of ignorance of the current policy on the page. Amducker (talk) 10:42, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Which reality are we referring to here, that she is a man that thinks she's a woman or a woman that is still technically a man? Or is that the fantasy? I lose the thread sometimes >_>--150.209.85.148 (talk) 02:08, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
The consensus is that she is simply a woman, and biology doesn’t factor into it. Current Misplaced Pages consensus is to respect transgenderism over biological sex. —Frungi (talk) 02:56, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
That may well be fine for Misplaced Pages and the editors around here that know this but as raised above I do not think it is going to make a difference. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I think the consensus is to refer to Manning with female pronouns, unless we get better documentation that she prefers male pronouns for the time before her public transition. I don't think wikipedia is making a statement on whether a trans-woman is "simply a woman", as there are many points of view on this subject and what exactly comprises "woman", so I think it's best if wikipedia avoids making such statements.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:32, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
This has been discussed and consensus has been reached that we use Chelsea. Consensus can change, but for now the issue is settled and reverting the name is disruptive editing behavior. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
We should use the same standard used for other people who have changed their names or have gone by non-legally-recognized nicknames. As it stands, her name is 'Bradley "Chelsea" Manning,' and it's disappointing to see Misplaced Pages fall to tyranny of the majority instead of being consistent. It should be Bradley "Chelsea" Manning for the title of the article, with female pronouns. Within the article it would be fine to use Chelsea, as that would be consistent with other people with nicknames/alias.
At this point it is moot don't you think? Anyways what is the point in discussing this more? Eight years from now when Manning is up for parole then maybe we can revisit things but for now given arbcom I feel this is only going to add more fuel to the fire. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:35, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
This is covered in FAQ at the top of this page. In short, when she declared what her new name was it became her new legal name. So we are using her legal name. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:45, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
The article name might be based on consensus, but do not deceive yourself, or try to deceive anyone here. "Chelsea" is not his legal name. Boneyard90 (talk) 03:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Please desist. Just because this page is an echo chamber doesn't mean it has any bearing on good Encyclopedic practice. Bradley Manning is the name he/she is universally recognized by the world population, outside of activist groups like the Guardian. It's going to be reverted back, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but as long as this website is grounded in reality Chelsea Manning is unsustainable. And until you acknowledge this fact the main pages is going to literally never be unlocked. Is that what wikipedia is about, hoarding your article for fear that mean ole' reality might interfere with it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.209.85.148 (talk • contribs)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
AlexTiefling, Because the editor was a sock? Seems like info is info, and can be evaluated on its own merits. I'm still thinking about whether to add something from the linked article. If you have an opinion about the material, it might be helpful if you expressed it. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:26, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Deed Poll
Has their name been changed by deed poll (or whatever the equivalent is, and has the transgenderism been confirmed medically? And if not why are they not requirements before changing the name etc?Theofficeprankster (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
(e/c) Re "has their name been changed and if not why are they not requirements before changing the name?": see the FAQ at the top of this page and, for more detailed discussion, peruse this page's many archives, where the questioned has been discussed in detail numerous times. Re "has the transgenderism been confirmed medically?": yes, Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder, as stated in the first paragraph of the article. Cheers, -sche (talk) 21:15, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
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The article should say her name is Bradley Edward "Chelsea" Manning. Since she hasn't change her name legally yet. You can use Chelsea in the title though.
76.105.96.92 (talk) 03:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
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