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Punch

I've been bending over backwards to work with you on this article but you ignore everything to have your preferred view. Misplaced Pages is about collaboration to achieve a NPOV, not for expressing your personal views on a subject to the exclusion of everyone else's. As I said earlier, you can not delete the word "effectively" without supplying a source for the claim "most historians." Contrary to your claim that he didn't, in his book, Toppin does say "in effect" which supports use of the word and it does convey what historians believe. Toppin is clear on what he meant by "in effect" because he says that slavery was likely a custom but not legal. Wayne (talk) 08:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

You have our roles reversed. I'm the one who's been accommodating you, but you're the one who's trying to pretend that Punch wasn't a slave despite the various sources I've listed that say he was. You've repeatedly tried to insert irrelevant information and framed it to try and support your assertion that Punch was never a slave but remained an indentured servant. You have provided NO SOURCE supporting this position and instead have been violating WP:OR and WP:POV to misrepresent sources and muddle the article. Here's some examples:

Let's start with "however, slavery was at that time not recognized under common law, indentured servitude was not slavery and laws protected rights that slaves did not have." This addition you made has ZERO relevance to Punch or the point the paragraph is trying to establish. The source you use doesn't even reference Punch. This article is about John Punch, not the difference between indentured servants and slaves. You clearly included this information to try and frame John Punch as an indentured servant and not a slave, which your source doesn't proclaim. It's irrelevant to the fact that John Punch is considered a slave among historians and is a clear violation of WP:POV to include it. You also started the sentence with "however" as if this was a contradiction or clarification to the statement historians made, and it's clearly not, it's not even relevant to whether Punch was considered a slave or not.

Also you added the word "claim" which is discouraged by WP:POV because it's a loaded word and you're trying to inject doubt in something that is presented as fact.

In this same edit you completely deleted a direct quote from Russell because it didn't suite your personal view. The quote didn't misrepresent anything, it was truncated for relevance but still reflected that Russell believes Punch was a limited time servant(indentured servant) that was sentenced to slavery.

Then you added "John Henderson Russell points out that if Punch was not an indentured servant, his punishment was less severe than that "inflicted on the white men." The severity of the punishment has no bearing or relevance to the point of the paragraph. If you wanted to create a separate paragraph to address the severity of the sentencing, then that's fine, but this doesn't belong in this paragraph or the dissenting paragraph because it has no relevance. I also want to add, Russell was saying that it was possible that Punch was already a life long slave before the court case and that's the reason why his punishment would be less harsh than his white counterparts, because it's possible he was already a slave since there was no mention of an indenture. He ultimately says that it's most reasonable that Punch was a limited time servant sentenced to slavery because it wouldn't make sense to sentence a person who's already a slave to life long slavery. In your obsession to instill confusion with irrelevant content, you obviously failed to realize that Russell's sentiment contradicts your opinion on both fronts.

Here you try and include the word "effectively" which is again, a violation of WP:OR and WP:POV. None of the sources or quotes say "effectively". First, "in effect" does not have the same connotation that "effectively" has. "in effect" has denotative meaning of "as a result of" not that he was almost a slave but not quite which is what "effectively" can infer. On top of that, most historians don't say he was "effectively" a slave. So for you to misrepresent something 1 historian said and pretend that most historians say that is also against WP:POV, despite it being WP:OR to begin with.

Your argument that "most historians agree" has to include "effectively" or else it requires a direct source, is wrong. First, "effectively" has no bearing whatsoever on the condition of the claim "most historians agree." It is simply an adverb for "ceased" and has nothing to do with "most historians agree." Even the most basic understanding of sentence structure would yield that comprehension. Secondly, per WP:OR it is our responsibility to include OR when representing majority and minority points of view. Look it up, under Neutral Point of View on the OR page. It says;

But when incorporating research into an article, it is important that editors provide context for this point of view, by indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority. The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research.

So my inclusion of "most historians agree" is the result of my original research and is supported by listing sources as per WP:OR guidelines. Instead of just saying that historians say Punch was the first slave, I phrased to be all inclusive of the existence of minority points of view. It's also important to note that there is only 1 credible dissenting point of view and it's not over whether or not Punch was a slave, but over whether he was an indentured servant before becoming a slave. You've yet to cite any position opposing the view that he became a slave.

Your next edit to the article was an atrocity for 2 reasons. The first being this inclusion "notes that while it was a "customary practice" by the 1630s for some negroes to have lifetime indentures," Again, this information has no relevance to the paragraph or to John Punch. This is not an article about the history of indentured servants and your adding this only muddles the paragraph and makes it incoherent. This is another attempt to try and imply that Punch was a lifetime indentured servant, though the source doesn't say that in any way shape or form.

The other problem with your edit was again, incoherence, irrelevance, and misinterpreted information. "While John Henderson Russell points out that if Punch was not an indentured servant, his punishment was less severe than that "inflicted on the white men," supporting that it was most likely that Punch was an indentured servant sentenced to slavery," The first problem with your addition is that you now have 2 back to back sentences that start with "While" which makes no sense. "While" is generally used to contradict a previous sentence or statement and it makes no sense to have two sentences both starting with "while". The next problem is relevance, which I already explained. The third problem is that "his punishment was less severe than that 'inflicted on the white men,'" does not support his belief that it was most likely that Punch was a lifetime indentured servant. It is the opposite possibility that he was a limited term servant whose punishment was MORE severe that supports his belief that Punch was an indentured servant sentenced to slavery. What you wrote was a jumbled mess that completely misrepresented what Russell wrote, which is why I paraphrased the entire section for you in the following edit. Russell wasn't refuting anything or "countering" anything. He was just expressing that it was possible Punch might not have been an indentured servant but a life long slave before the court case, but digresses and explains that it's most reasonable that he was an indentured servant that was sentenced to slavery. Regardless of your misunderstanding of what Russell was saying about the court case not distinguishing an indentured contract for Punch, he confirms that Punch was sentenced to slavery in 1640. His book does not contest that Punch was sentenced to slavery.

I already explained how Russell didn't have a dissenting opinion. Recognizing something as a possibility, doesn't mean you're endorsing it, and he actually verifies that he doesn't endorse that possibility and that his views fall more in line with other historians that punch was a limited time servant(indentured) sentenced to slavery. Your edit is a joke because you noted that your correction was to reduce repetition, but in actuality you copy and pasted the last 3-4 lines of the previous paragraph into the following paragraph, thus adding more repetition. Now, maybe you just forgot to delete the information you copied, but it still shows a disregard for maintaining the integrity of the article and shows a willing haste-fullness to just edit the article to suit your narrative.

Nope, even in your most recent change you intentionally violated WP:POV by wrongfully paraphrasing what Russell said to fit your own narrative. I directly quoted Russell, and Russell said "slavery for life." You intentionally changed this to "servitude for life," which goes beyond WP:POV and becomes vandalism. It's not a good faith effort when you take an actual quote then change the wording to fit your narrative. Previously you were intentionally deleting this quote, and now you sought to change what Russell said. The purpose of this paragraph is to describe how historians consider John Punch a slave. Russell directly says that Punch was sentenced to "slavery for life" which is why it's included in this paragraph. It's ridiculous for you to accuse me of not collaborating and being intent on expressing my point of view when you're the one who intentionally changes and misrepresents sources to try and validate yours. I'm not presenting my point of view, I'm presenting facts as directly verified by sources. Something you have not yet been able to do for your claim, going on 3 weeks now.

In fact, my edits have made plenty of accommodations for information you insist on being included, even though it's not relevant to Punch or to the point of the paragraph you tried to include it in. I didn't ignore anything you've tried to include, I directly explained every revision I made, thus recognizing your edits and explaining how they were wrong or unjustified. For you to claim that I'm ignoring everything is fallacious and is a downright lie. You haven't submitted anything...ANYTHING that actually contradicts the information I've included in the article. The only dissenting opinion is Dr. Jeffery and I'm the one that added that information. Still, even he doesn't share your sentiment that Punch wasn't a slave, he just doesn't believe that Punch was an indentured servant before becoming a slave, which again, contradicts your position. Also, your interpretation of what Toppin's "in effect" means is wrong. He does believe that slavery was a custom but then also acknowledges that it was legally sanctioned when Punch was sentenced to slavery. That's the point of his mentioning the case, that as a result of this ruling Punch became a slave. The fact that a court made the determination, means that it was legal and as far as court documents show, this is the first case legally recognizing slavery.Scoobydunk (talk) 10:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

You need to go back to school. They both have almost the same meaning and the word actually adds support to much of your text.
"In Effect" ▸adverb: in actuality or reality or fact.
"Effectively" ▸adverb: in actuality or reality or fact. Used for saying what the situation really is, although its appearance or official description might be different.
"So my inclusion of "most historians agree" is the result of my original research." The WP policy is talking about the OR of the academic source, not your own OR.
"I directly quoted Russell, and Russell said "slavery for life." You intentionally changed this to "servitude for life," which goes beyond WP:POV and becomes vandalism. It's not a good faith effort when you take an actual quote then change the wording to fit your narrative." We have no idea what Russell meant by "slavery for life" so context is required. He was quoting the court case which actually said "serve for life" so the paraphrased sentence is more NPOV by leaving it to the reader to interpret.
"That's the point of his mentioning the case, that as a result of this ruling Punch became a slave. The fact that a court made the determination, means that it was legal and as far as court documents show, this is the first case legally recognizing slavery." The courts determination was legal but it NEVER mentioned slavery so without context it's dishonest to claim that the court determined Punch was a slave or that it recognized slavery. The most you can say is that the court recognized "servitude for life". Wayne (talk) 10:25, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Effectively still has a connotation associated with it and the opinions of the multiple historians DO NOT reflect that connotation. To pretend that most historians say "effectively" is against WP:POV. On top of that, "effect" "in effect" and "effectively" all have multiple meanings which is why I did additional research to discover what Toppin actually feels. As I've already proved, he says the Punch was sentenced to slavery and that this is the first case we know of including slavery in Virginia. It's also clear you need to work on your reading comprehension.

WP:OR says "But when incorporating research into an article, it is important that editors provide context for this point of view, by indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority." This is saying that EDITORS EDITORS EDITORS are the ones who provide context for the "point of view" of the authors they cite. Editors establish this context by identifying and describing how prevalent the position is and whether it's held by the majority or the minority. It is specifically saying that editors get to include OR when describing opinions as a majority view which is what "most historians agree" is, it's providing context for how prevalent the belief is that Punch was sentenced to slavery.

We know exactly what Russell meant and I included the context in the article. I already explained that Russell was describing how John Punch most reasonably was reduced from his limited time servitude to slavery for life. He uses the word "slavery" and defining what "slave" means is not relevant to the article about John Punch. He wasn't quoting the court case because he did that in a previous sentence. This sentence was his opinion on what the court case meant, and he believes it meant that Punch was sentenced to slavery for life. You just admitted to changing or misrepresenting what a historian/source said because you think their opinion is biased. That's you inflicting your own point of view and OR into the article, instead of letting the sources and quotes speak for themselves. That is a violation of WP:POV and WP:OR and now that you've admitted to intentionally doing it, continued behavior would violate wikipedia's policies against vandalism. The reader can interpret the court case however they want but this doesn't explain the importance of the case or the context of the case. That's why we include material from reliable sources to give this context and explain the importance. You are intentionally trying to undermine what historians say because it conflicts with your personal point of view. My entire last post gave specific examples of you doing this.

It would be dishonest if I was interpreting the court decision myself as "slavery" and tried to write the article based on my interpretation. That would be considered a violation of WP:OR. However, I'm not interpreting the decision, historians are the ones who have interpreted the decision and their books on the subject are what give the case context. So you essentially just called all of the authors and historians "dishonest" and your actions have clearly demonstrated a disregard for what reliable sources have said in favor of your own opinion which is a violation of WP:POV. I also want to point out your hypocrisy. Your more than willing to call Casor a slave though his court case doesn't say ANYTHING about slavery. It said "I have thee negro for his life" or something to that effect. So this argument of yours is intellectually dishonest and inherently contradicts your assertion that Casor was a slave. Ultimately, I can say "slave" and "slavery for life" because that's exactly what the sources say. For you to disregard what sources say so you can keep your own narrative is in violation of WP:POV.Scoobydunk (talk) 11:17, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

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December 2013

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.  Toddst1 (talk) 18:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

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