Talk:Khongirad: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 02:31, 31 December 2013 editSczc (talk \| contribs)305 edits →Requested move ← Previous edit		Revision as of 09:25, 31 December 2013 edit undoHongirid (talk \| contribs)52 edits →Requested move Next edit →
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	*'''Oppose''' ] "The destruction of ] by Kirghiz resulted in the end of Turkic dominance in Mongolia. According to historians, Kirhgiz were not interested in assimilating newly acquired lands; instead, they controlled local tribes through various manaps and they didn't live in today's Mongolia". "they were expelled from Mongolia by the Khitans in 924".		*'''Oppose''' ] "The destruction of ] by Kirghiz resulted in the end of Turkic dominance in Mongolia. According to historians, Kirhgiz were not interested in assimilating newly acquired lands; instead, they controlled local tribes through various manaps and they didn't live in today's Mongolia". "they were expelled from Mongolia by the Khitans in 924".
	Hongirads lived along the ] of Mongolian ], it is too far from the Turkic land. Many names of them have Mongol origin. ] (]) 02:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)		Hongirads lived along the ] of Mongolian ], it is too far from the Turkic land. Many names of them have Mongol origin. ] (]) 02:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			:You can not quote wikipedia as a reason Szcz. Besides, Mongol etymologies have been invented for many names of Turkic origin in Soviet times in order to divide tribal nations along linguistic lines. Classic divide and conquer strategy. The history of no central Eurasian Steppe tribe can be treated as within the boundaries of any modern nation state precisely because of the migratory nature of their history as you mentioned. Thus the histories of modern Mongolian speaking Kyrgyz and Modern Mongolian speaking Kazakh tribes such as the Kereit (Mongolian Khereid) or Qongirat (Mongolian Hongirat) need to be dealt with under articles about the ethnic groups not fragmented into a myriad of generally un-sourced articlesunder misnomers in order to push this or that political agenda. Even if cautiously we wanted to avoid the modern literature as biased towards the "Turkic" agenda as you called it on your other post at ], one still can not escape the facts that the modern authors are not saying anything different from the oldest sources.] (]) 09:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

	=== Kipchak vs Mongol===		=== Kipchak vs Mongol===

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POV dispute

This article is about the history of a modern thriving Kypchak ethnic group which constitutes a major portion of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. It is as wrong to present the nation as a Mongol tribe because this is how it can be interpreted from Mongolian Historical sources as it would be to present the Mongols as a Chinese nation as they can be presented from Chinese historical sources. This article needs to be re-written to reflect the correct language and modern condition of the Hingir and remove all Mongol Bias. Hongirid (talk) 06:56, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Khongirad be renamed and moved somewhere else, with the name being decided below.

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Hongirad → Qongirat – Since this article is about a brief but illustrious period in the history of the Qongirat ethnic division of the Kazakh nation it seems it would be best to rename the article with a move. Hongirid (talk) 19:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC) Are there any further suggestions to include in this proposal? Hongirid (talk) 17:52, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

My advice is to use the Misplaced Pages:Requested moves method. That way you have a chance to provide some evidence for your contention.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

This discussion has already taken place thank you.Hongirid (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Support, mildly the proposed move. To further this move discussion. I am not familiar with the subject area but if Qongirat (currently a redirect to this article) is a somewhat larger topic and an editor wants to expand the current Hongirad article to cover the larger topic, rather than starting a separate article on Qongirat, that seems fine to me. --do ncr am 22:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Oppose History_of_Mongolia#Kyrgyz_state "The destruction of Uyghur Khaganate by Kirghiz resulted in the end of Turkic dominance in Mongolia. According to historians, Kirhgiz were not interested in assimilating newly acquired lands; instead, they controlled local tribes through various manaps and they didn't live in today's Mongolia". "they were expelled from Mongolia by the Khitans in 924".

Hongirads lived along the Khalkha River of Mongolian Dornod Province, it is too far from the Turkic land. Many names of them have Mongol origin. Sczc (talk) 02:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

You can not quote wikipedia as a reason Szcz. Besides, Mongol etymologies have been invented for many names of Turkic origin in Soviet times in order to divide tribal nations along linguistic lines. Classic divide and conquer strategy. The history of no central Eurasian Steppe tribe can be treated as within the boundaries of any modern nation state precisely because of the migratory nature of their history as you mentioned. Thus the histories of modern Mongolian speaking Kyrgyz and Modern Mongolian speaking Kazakh tribes such as the Kereit (Mongolian Khereid) or Qongirat (Mongolian Hongirat) need to be dealt with under articles about the ethnic groups not fragmented into a myriad of generally un-sourced articlesunder misnomers in order to push this or that political agenda. Even *if* cautiously we wanted to avoid the modern literature as biased towards the "Turkic" agenda as you called it on your other post at Talk:Khereid, one still can not escape the facts that the modern authors are not saying anything different from the oldest sources.Hongirid (talk) 09:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Kipchak vs Mongol

Dear Toddy1 you brought a request to my talk page that you wanted to discuss whether this Kazakh ethnic group are Kipchak or Mongol. I recommend you read something about the Kazakh people (Middle Juz) you will see that Kazakhs are Kipchaks not Mongols. Hongirid (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC) p.s. Toddy1, Why did you use a different username (User:Sczc) when you edited the article instead of the same one you used on my talk page? Hongirid (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

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