| Revision as of 22:02, 23 April 2014 editRwenonah (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,086 edits →Suggested move← Previous edit | Revision as of 22:08, 23 April 2014 edit undoHiLo48 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers91,247 edits →Suggested move: A sadly pointless exerciseNext edit → | ||
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| This exercise could go on and on, but it doesn't really change the point that this statement - ''"No one denies that almost all other stories about creation myths in Misplaced Pages are titled "creation myth" (do a search)."'' - is categorically false. And it would seem to me that an argument that is based on an utterly false premise can be summarily dismissed. | This exercise could go on and on, but it doesn't really change the point that this statement - ''"No one denies that almost all other stories about creation myths in Misplaced Pages are titled "creation myth" (do a search)."'' - is categorically false. And it would seem to me that an argument that is based on an utterly false premise can be summarily dismissed. | ||
| === A sadly pointless exercise due to our ] === | |||
| Obviously all religions should be treated equally on Misplaced Pages, with all creation stories called myths. But a hard core of mostly Christian adherents here will continue to behave in un-Christian ways to prevent it happening. I'm not sure what they think their god will do to them if they allow Misplaced Pages to do it job properly and fairly. Some will now attack me for not ], but masses of evidence I have seen here would make me a hypocrite if I pretended to do so. ] (]) 22:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
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The Article Is Not Neutral At All
For example, Moses is thought to have written the Book of Genesis. Various biblical scholars have accepted that Moses was God's first prophet and author of the first five books in the Old Testament.50.157.103.28 (talk) 03:07, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- It isn't meant to be 'neutral', it is meant to reflect a 'neutral point of view' as described at WP:NPOV. And it says that Genesis is traditionally attributed to Moses, but that isn't the current scholarly view. The article will never actually state that Moses wrote it as a fact. Dougweller (talk) 06:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I never claimed that it is an established fact that Moses was the first prophet. I live in the Twin Cities, a major breeding ground for secular Christian theologians, and yes, I do know it is an established fact that Moses is accepted as the first prophet by many biblical scholars. Many Christian, Jewish and Muslims scholars identify the five books of Moses' Torah as the first holy books ever written.50.157.103.28 (talk) 04:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
This article is a mash-up of biases and questionable opinions. For instance "humanity he creates is not god-like, but is punished for acts which would lead to their becoming god-like" this does not reflect the mainstream opinion of Christianity. The ejection from Eden was to "prevent them from eating of the tree of life and living eternally in their sin" which sin was disobedience not enlightenment.
I at first thought to sit and correct some of the text of the article and almost immediately gave up realizing it is nearly hopelessly self conflicting and rife with incomplete interpretations and incorrect positioning.
The article does not have a section on secular comparativism which I believe it should definitely contain but I do not have a ready list of sources to create the section. If I were to write it the content would be seen as my opinion without those references.
In the end I looked to the back page and found the horror among editors over the naming of the article (which I read in its current entirety) and truly wanted to slap both dominant sides.
The creation selection from Genesis is a wonderful account as understood from the POV of a technologically and scientifically primitive position. If it was completely accurate, and I mean literally correct, it would still have to be seen through the eyes of mankind 4,000 years ago, if you side with the Moses authorship, or 3000 years ago if you espouse the 700 BC (I refuse to use BCE) authorship.
If the original was 'revealed in the spirit as told to Moses by God' Moses would have no frame of reference to comprehend and relate to others what had happened or how it was accomplished. For that matter he would have no vocabulary to explain the Physical Cosmology. "Let there be light." Pretty much tells you what Moses understood. I have no doubt of Moses' intelligence but the man didn't know about communicable diseases, parasites or the fundamentals of physics, how can you expect his interpretation of the creation to stand up to our current standard of scientific analysis?
If you look at the story as if he is a bright, but barely literate by our standard, man trying to explain it to his contemporaries, things become so much more comprehensible and actually align nicely with current scientific reasoning relative to creation theories. His testimony of creative periods and progression of the Earth from the big bang to coalescence through the creation of life he does a pretty good job of proving the science. The second section, the story of Adam and Eve includes his interpretation of the operative method of bringing about 'flesh of his flesh' and being something more interesting to his life, "Where did i come from" he paid closer attention and can relate the story better albeit in the same simple POV terms of which he was capable.
Good on you Moses. 71.174.4.100 (talk) 07:37, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
how can you expect his interpretation of the creation to stand up to our current standard of scientific analysis?
I reckon most of us here don't. Seems like a question better directed at Ken Ham and his ilk. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 21:05, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
INCONSISTENCIES
On the two narratives of the Creation Story (Gen. 1:1-2:4a and 2:4b-25), please notice the following inconsistencies: a. In the first narrative, man was created on the sixth day where man the last of God's creation. On the second narrative, notice that man was first to be created. b. In the first narrative, all other creatures (birds, fishes, animals, plants, etc.) created before the creation of man where man created at the same time; both Adam and Eve while in the second narrative, note that Adam was first to be created then followed by the garden in Eden and then by the animal creatures. When none proved to be the suitable partner for man, it was only then that Eve was created where Eve the last to be created. c. In the second narrative, the LORD GOD used the possessive pronoun I ("I will make a suitable partner for man") while in the first narrative, when GOD created man, GOD said "Let US create man..." d. Note that in the first narrative, God created all things using His word (Let there be...) while in the second narrative, Lord God created all creatures including man "out of the (clay of the) ground". e. In the first narrative, everyday of creation was always concluded with the phrase "God saw (his creation) that it was good" while on the second narrative, the Lord God said "IT IS NOT GOOD for man to be alone" considering it is He himself who created the man that is alone. Believe it or not, it is was a mistake. It then brings us to inquiring whether or not the creation of EVE in the original plan when the narrative suggests that had God did not mistakenly created man to be lonely, Eve could not have been created. Note further that the first choice of the Lord God to be the partner of man was animals. Upon notice of man's loneliness, God created different animals (2:19)and the purpose of their creation is to present them to Adam for man to choose which of those animals he may like be his suitable partner. Eve was actually the second choice after Adam rejected animals. Hence the question again, does God know what he was doing? It seems the creation process a matter of TRIAL AND ERROR. And true enough, EVE is a product of ERROR. e. Bible scholars are one in the agreement that the second narrative was written way ahead of the first narrative. Gen 2 (the second story of creation) is therefore the original creation story. But why was it written A POSTERIORI the first narrative. Please consider the same parallel confusion of sequence in the first two books of the New Testament. Mark is an older Gospel than Matthew but chronology seem to follow the same confusion between the two stories of creation in the book of Genesis.
IRREGULARITIES
a. On the first day of creation, God created LIGHT. On the fourth day, God separated the light that guides the day from the light that guides the night and all other stars and heavenly bodies. Question is; when did God created the SUN? Was it on the first or the fourth day. If it's the latter, what light did He create on the first day? b. It is not correct to call the garden Eden. The correct text states (2:8) "LORD GOD planted a garden in Eden". Eden is the place where the garden was planted and not the garden itself. The narrative even mentioned the location of the garden being "East of Eden". c. Note that in the 2:5, it was stated "the Lord God had not sent RAIN upon the earth". Question: when was rain created? d. Please check the absurd narrative of Chapter 6 about the Nephilim. SONS OF GOD marrying daughters of man and producing sons who were the heroes of the past and the popular men?" Huhhh? e. It seems disenchanting to consider God a SUPREME ALL POWERFUL BEING but possesses the human frailty of REGRET; (6:6) And the LORD was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. f. NOTE: GEN 1, the creator was GOD. In GEN 2 and 3, it was the LORD GOD. In 4 to 50, its the LORD.
112.200.2.96 (talk) 15:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- We can do something with sourced criticism, but not much with original or unsourced biblical criticism. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Under the sun, moon, and stars
Regarding this:
On Day Four God puts "lights" in the firmament, but the Hebrew word ''ma'or'' means literally "lamps", underlining the status of the cosmos as God's temple.{{sfn|Walsh|2001|p=37 (fn.5)}}
We previously had a literal description of the text in most English translations; that on Day Four God puts lights in the firmament. This is cited to a good source. Also, the actual text mentions stars here, which we did not have. Now comes Ccasci who wants to insert a sentence:
In most mainstream versions of the bible, the sun, the moon, and the stars are literally created on this day.
With the claim in an edit summary that it's so obvious that it's not mentioned in any sources. This is problematic in a number of ways, some of which have by now been fixed by ordinary editing. First of all, I have not seen a version of the bible in any language including the Vulgate and the Septuagint which say anything about the moon and the sun. They all say a big light and a little light, which is what our first sentence about day four is talking about. All versions also mention stars explicitly. There was previously no mention of this. The sentence currently reads:
In most versions of the Bible, the sun, the moon, and the stars are created on this day.
It is still uncited to a source. If we're going to say it, I don't think it's out of line to ask for a source, since I can't find a single version of the bible that says that the sun and moon were created on the fourth day. It's natural to assume that sun and moon are meant by big light and little light, but without a source it's nevertheless original research. Furthermore, if the sun and the moon are what's meant by lights, what does this sentence add to the sourced sentence that precedes it? Finally, the "most" here is pure speculation without a source. If "most" relies on some editors checking a bunch of versions of the bible it's original research. Thus I propose that we (a) find a source for this claim, (b) delete it, or (c) delete it but add "stars" to the sentence that precedes it.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:17, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- What about replacing "the sun, the moon" with "a 'big light' and a 'little light'" in the sentence? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Sure that's fine with me, except then what does the sentence add to the sentence that precedes it? Maybe we should just add size of lights and stars to that sentence and then add a sentence about the purpose of the lights, e.g. to separate the day from the night and so forth. I have no problem with more detail. I just have a problem with people making stuff up without sources by reading the text. I also don't think we need a secondary source for what the text says, because the text actually says it. It doesn't say anything about the sun and the moon, so we need a source for that. It's always a mistake to assume that there's an obvious literal meaning for ancient language. It's hard enough with contemporary language.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:42, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, or we could leave the first sentence as it is, change the second to include big light and little light, leave stars in there, and add a clause about why there's a big light and a little light. That might flow better.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I removed the sentence. As I said, it's factually false. Second, the part that's not factually false is original research (the "most versions" part). Since everybody's super-busy rehashing the move discussion I thought I'd point out my deletion and ask that, per WP:BURDEN, people who want to add this sentence back either find a source for it or else revise it so that the text itself is a reliable source for what it says, per above discussion. Thanks!— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Suggested move
The last suggested move was no consensus, but we should still keep discussing this.
Simple argument:
No one denies that this particular story is a creation myth (it's in our lede).
No one denies that almost all other stories about creation myths in Misplaced Pages are titled "creation myth" (do a search).
Therefore, this page should be called Genesis creation myth.
jps (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support for neutrality and consistency with other creation myth articles, myth is the correct academic term.Theroadislong (talk) 12:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support - I'm a follower of one of the religions that accepts Genesis as divinely inspired, from a region and sect both a bit notorious for rallying in defense of it, and I even agree. Aside from the points OP gave, how many sources call it a "narrative" instead of a myth, really? Aside from narrative being inaccurate, it's undue weight. Then there's connotation. "Narrative" sounds like a story that no one takes seriously, while "myth" denotes a story that some people accept in some form or another for religious or pseudo-religious reasons. No one accepts Genesis without at least a quasi-religious reason, even if they're ardently opposed to organized religion.
- "But 'myth' is commonly misunderstood to mean something false" tends to be a common counter argument, but this is an encyclopedia, not a repository for common idiocy. We don't use theory in place of hypothesis as common people do, and we don't dumb down medical terms but link to them and expect our readers to learn from those links. Why should we treat religious matters differently, dumbing them down so some hick who probably hasn't even read Genesis doesn't have to think more than is necessary to keep breathing during a Duck Dynasty marathon? Ian.thomson (talk) 12:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose for crying out loud. Your premise is utterly false. YES, plenty of people deny that this particular story is a creation myth. YES, plenty of other creation stories use some other formulation. In fact, the VAST MAJORITY (see figures below) use a different formulation. Typically, only when no other formulation exists in reliable sources does it default to the "creation myth" formulation. This argument is dead before it starts. Please don't waste our time again. HokieRNB 17:14, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose A myth is a story, which can be told in many ways by many tellers. Cf. OED: "A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces, which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or justification for something such as the early history of a society, a religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon." A narrative is a specific text relating a story. Cf. OED: "An account of a series of events, facts, etc., given in order and with the establishing of connections between them; a narration, a story, an account." This article is about the specific narration of the Judeo-Christian creation myth given in the book of Genesis. It is not about the myth per se but about the specific telling of the myth in the book. Therefore it's about the narrative rather than about the myth and the title should reflect that. This distinction is more clear in traditions which made the transition from oral transmission of myths to written more recently, where there may be many narratives of the same myth, each potentially worthy of an article.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 17:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- If that were true, then how come Judeo-Christian creation myth redirects here? Rwenonah (talk) 19:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- How should I know?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support per NPOV and to maintain an encyclopedic voice. It would be a title consistent with the content. - - MrBill3 (talk) 20:14, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Could you please elaborate on how you see this title as not being (A) neutral, (B) encyclopedic, or (C) consistent with the article content? From your reasons, one could just as easily score this as Oppose. HokieRNB 20:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- A) NPOV says we present things as they are presented in the academic community. B) The Genesis creation myth is extensively discussed as a myth in academia not as a narrative. An encyclopedia does not refer to something by other than the term of reference recognized in academia. C) The content of the article clearly presents the subject as a creation myth. - - MrBill3 (talk) 20:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- I think "Genesis creation story" is more common than either. Plus are you sure, when you're counting uses, that you're catching a distinction the author may be purposely making between myth and narrative?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- A) NPOV says we present things as they are presented in the academic community. B) The Genesis creation myth is extensively discussed as a myth in academia not as a narrative. An encyclopedia does not refer to something by other than the term of reference recognized in academia. C) The content of the article clearly presents the subject as a creation myth. - - MrBill3 (talk) 20:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose The point is that common language should be use rather than academic use. Since myth has a non-neutral meaning in common English, it must not be used where it will cause offense to many readers. Narrative is neutral in this respect and non controversial. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
If myth has a non-neutral meaning, who can we use it for the other eleven articles titled creation myth? Titling Genesis differently shows bias.Rwenonah (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
List of articles titled "creation myth"
(This subsection was labeled "for those too dumb or lazy to do their own search" before it was refactored by Rwenonah). Here is the complete (as of 17:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)) list of Misplaced Pages articles that use "creation myth" in the formulation of their title:
- Serer creation myth
- Ancient Egyptian creation myths
- Mesoamerican creation myths
- Sumerian creation myth
- Chinese creation myth
- Mandé creation myth
- Ainu creation myth
- Japanese creation myth
- Fon creation myth
- Tungusic creation myth
- Kaluli creation myth
At approximately the same time, there are 107 pages in the Category:Creation myths. Eleven out of one hundred seven. Approximately 10%. HokieRNB 17:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a fair comparison as a good number of the articles in that category are related to myths, but not the myths themselves.--McSly (talk) 18:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Which makes it a perfectly fair comparison, since this article is related to what academics refer to as a "creation myth", but it's not only about that. It's primarily about the text that makes up roughly the first two chapters of Genesis, which is what many refer to as the "creation narrative" in the Bible. Outside the world of biblical studies, many just call it the "creation story". Both of those would be apt titles for this article. HokieRNB 19:05, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- So how is this article different from a "creation myth" as described by academics? Or, in other words, what makes this article different from the above 11? Rwenonah (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- For starters, the other 11 all have the same formulation of . "Genesis" is not a people group, but rather a canonical text. "Genesis" cannot have a creation myth. The Hebrew people can. HokieRNB 19:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Also, most of the others describe oral creation myths, which don't have canonical textual instantiations to write articles about (the Sumerian one is an exception to this) or else they describe multiple myths, like Mesoamerican and Chinese, rather than particular texts. I think really the only example on that list parallel to this one is the Sumerian one. So we have one with each name, but notwithstanding, "narrative" is correct.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:11, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- The articles acknowledges that A this article is the creation myth of two religious groups and B is a creation myth. Hence this article is after all about the creation myth of particular group, and is not different from the above versions. Japanese, Ancient Egyptian and Sumerian all have written versions, btw. Obviously, then, titling Genesis differently shows bias, when even the article says it is a creation myth and not a chapter of a book. Rwenonah (talk) 21:07, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- I already acknowledged that the Sumerian one is parallel to this case. The Japanese one is not because although there is one myth there are two narratives and the article is about the myth itself rather than specifically about either of the narratives. The Egyptian one is not because there are multiple myths and the article is about all of them. Like I said, that leaves us with the only comparison being the Sumerian one. Personally I think that should be retitled to Eridu Genesis narrative, but that's not the subject of the discussion.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 21:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- The articles acknowledges that A this article is the creation myth of two religious groups and B is a creation myth. Hence this article is after all about the creation myth of particular group, and is not different from the above versions. Japanese, Ancient Egyptian and Sumerian all have written versions, btw. Obviously, then, titling Genesis differently shows bias, when even the article says it is a creation myth and not a chapter of a book. Rwenonah (talk) 21:07, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- So how is this article different from a "creation myth" as described by academics? Or, in other words, what makes this article different from the above 11? Rwenonah (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Which makes it a perfectly fair comparison, since this article is related to what academics refer to as a "creation myth", but it's not only about that. It's primarily about the text that makes up roughly the first two chapters of Genesis, which is what many refer to as the "creation narrative" in the Bible. Outside the world of biblical studies, many just call it the "creation story". Both of those would be apt titles for this article. HokieRNB 19:05, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
List of articles titled "creation narrative"
1. Genesis creation myth. 1 out of 107. Less than 1%. Rwenonah (talk) 19:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
List of articles titled "sukta"
- Purusha sukta
- Nasadiya Sukta
- Nadistuti sukta
- Śrī Sūkta
- Narayana sukta
- Devi sukta
- Manyu sukta
This exercise could go on and on, but it doesn't really change the point that this statement - "No one denies that almost all other stories about creation myths in Misplaced Pages are titled "creation myth" (do a search)." - is categorically false. And it would seem to me that an argument that is based on an utterly false premise can be summarily dismissed.
A sadly pointless exercise due to our systemic bias
Obviously all religions should be treated equally on Misplaced Pages, with all creation stories called myths. But a hard core of mostly Christian adherents here will continue to behave in un-Christian ways to prevent it happening. I'm not sure what they think their god will do to them if they allow Misplaced Pages to do it job properly and fairly. Some will now attack me for not assuming good faith, but masses of evidence I have seen here would make me a hypocrite if I pretended to do so. HiLo48 (talk) 22:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
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