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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Personal attacks and legal threats by User:Visakha veera

We were having discussion on Talk:Andhra Pradesh when User:Visakha veera gave me legal threat "we will settle this issue in court" on my talk page when I warned the User, the response was personal attack ("you are arguing blindly") & further legal threat ("you are ready for blocking and court cases?") and then further threats ("are you ready for blocking?" & "we will legally solve in court! are you ready?"). The user has done personal attacks on me while having discussion with other user on their talk pages too e.g. here ("arguing blindly") The user is also engaged in WP:Canvassing and trying to form block against me which is clear from the posts made by user here, here and here. I'm feeling shocked & depressed by such vieled personal attacks and legal threats, after so much effort this is what i'm getting from fellow editors.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haiderc_s 19:45, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Visakha veera has been blocked indefinitely for repeatedly making legal threats like this. I'd also like to note that he had been warned about possible discretionary sanctions in WP:ARBIP territory. De728631 (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• It's no excuse for Visakha veera's behaviour but the background to it is repeated POV-pushing on Andhra Pradesh (and to a lesser extent also on other articles) by Faizhaider, claiming that Urdu is an official language in post-partition AP, "supporting" his claim with references that say nothing of the sort, while refusing to accept sources, including the Andhra Pradesh government web portal, that say that "the official language in Andhra Pradesh is Telugu", with "official language" in the singular. Which since there's a lot of tension around the status of various languages in India, and perhaps more so in Telangana and "new" Andhra Pradesh (which were split into separate states partly along language lines only two months ago) than in other parts of India, means that there was quite a bit of provocation leading up to the legal threat. Thomas.W 20:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• I think that about sums it up. I'm having a hard time digging through Faizhaider's various relevant edits but I agree that he doesn't seem to be quite innocent either in this dispute. I've explained to Visakha Veera that they may be unblocked once they retract the legal threat. But I'm also wondering if a temporary topic ban for both editors as part of an arbitration enforcement would be justified. De728631 (talk) 21:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• I would definitely support a topic ban for both editors, regardless of length. A topic ban that for Faizhaider should include adding Urdu as official, co-official or second language to any article relating to India, broadly construed. He has been told to stop his POV-pushing, and knows he's being watched, but a topic ban, regardless of length, would send an even clearer message to him than just a message from me on his talk page. Thomas.W 06:39, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear Thomas.W, your statement "which were split into separate states partly along language lines only two months ago", tells that although you are involved in the article & discussions but you may not be aware of exact background, Telangana was not carved out of Andhra Pradesh along language lines but in contrast Andhra Pradesh is first non-Hindi state which got splitted and that was due to development issues (and not language).

Admins, my edits may be called POV but they are NPOV as can be seen throughout my discussion I have been patiently answering the points raised by other editors in ambit of WP policies and decorum. But other group seems to come one after one raising same points which I have answered already, then too I didn't lost my cool and urged the editor(s) to go through previous comments. Intrestingly, I have constantly been asked to produce proof from official sources while they are now relying on ambigous blog/news link. When they were not able to answer my points and logic they lost their cool and started abusing me (they also had coversation in Telugu and used words like stubborn to define me). In whole discussion I have been WP:Civil and tried to answer each and every objection. I have given numerous links and quoted Acts & Laws of India & Andhra Pradesh to show status of Hindi, English & other state language(s) but nobody seems to be looking at them and totally ignoring them. User has been removing data on AP and other articles while discussion was going on and that too without edit summary. Recently I have not tried to restore any of the removed content so I fail to understand how that mounts to POV push or edit-war.

I'll urge admins to closely go through the discussion at Talk:Andhra Pradesh and also look at postings of all editors involved on various other User Talk pages as there have been attempt of canvassing, campaigning & lobbying against me & my edits.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haiderc_s 06:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• As an uninvolved editor, the impression I get is of rather extreme bullying. The legal threats and threats of blocking are obvious violations of WP:BATTLE and despite a sudden retraction, under duress, of the threats, I am not convinced of the sincerity of said retractions. Jusdafax 18:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Neither am I. The unblock request looks to me like the verbatim what they need to say to get immediately unblocked, followed by a series of rants about someone else being the problem, and then another insincere repeat of the verbatim text to get unblocked. Not at all sincere and I think the disruption would continue if they were unblocked.--v/r - TP 19:19, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Faizhaider, you are in fact edit warring because you keep adding your preferred references although they have been challenged by several other users. All I can see on your part is synthesis (this does not state anything about the official status of any language) and edit warring about it . You are even being inconsistent in your editing since here and here you remove a statement that said that Urdu was in fact the co-offical language in AP while you keep pointing out that the AP public employment act will "still" be published in Urdu. De728631 (talk) 19:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
• Bump. De728631 (talk) 17:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Propose topic bans

Faizhaider

After reviewing Faizhaider's contributions at the article Andhra Pradesh, the discussion at Talk:Andhra Pradesh and User talk:Faizhaider I conclude that Faizhaider is pushing a somewhat unclear agenda related to adding Urdu as one of the official languages in the current Indian state of Andhra Pradesh. Regardless of the merit of sources provided by either side it has become evident that Faizhaider's edits to the article have become disruptive in a manner of edit warring, POV pushing and a lot of WP:IDHT resulting in even more disruption and needless drama. As it happens, discretionary sanctions following the WP:ARBIND ruling cannot be applied on Faizhaider because he was not notified of this possible type of enforcement while editing the article. While a block would be justified for edit warring I would like to seek a solution that may last longer than some two or three days. I therefore propose a topic ban as follows: For the period of one month, Faizhaider must neither add nor remove the Urdu language at any articles concerning topics of India broadly construed. This discussion serves as notification for discretionary sanctions in the ARBIND case enabling further action. De728631 (talk) 19:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban as proposer. De728631 (talk) 19:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per De728631's proposal. Thomas.W 21:07, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

@De728631:, @Thomas.W: I'm not sure if you have seen recent conversation on Talk:Andhra Pradesh, but the situation seems to be more cooled-off and clear than 24 hrs ago as it is now clear from various sources that the confusion is not only at WP but it even engulfs legislators of AP. I'm sorry for miopic view & stand but I felt that long standing information on article was being removed (without any comment summary) in absence of any hard proof (may be due to POV push & bias). Now we have reached consensus to maintain status-quo on the article. So, I'll ask for reconsideration of topic ban.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haiderc_s 10:41, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Visakha veera

Visaka veera has probably overreacted in the recent dispute with Faizhaider but seeing this unblock request I fear he is simply walking the same road as Faizhaider, namely arguing ad nauseam that his sources are the one and only truth while playing down the issue that led to his block. This makes me agree with Judasfax and TParis that Vv's retraction of the legal threat may not at all be sincere. Provided that the indefinite block of Visaka veera is lifted following his latest request or within four weeks from now I propose a topic ban of the same nature as the one for Faizhaider: For one month after his being unblocked, Visaka veera must neither add nor remove the Urdu language at any articles concerning topics of India broadly construed. Any failure to abide by this restriction or will result in an indefinite block per WP:ARBIND sanctions. De728631 (talk) 19:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban as proposer. De728631 (talk) 19:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per De728631's proposal. Thomas.W 21:07, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support and additionally propose that even an hint of a legal threat elsewhere result in an indefinite block. AlanS (talk) 13:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Closure request

Would an admin assess the consensus in this discussion? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:20, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Russavia disruption, requesting multiple article protection

Banned user Russavia has been editing Misplaced Pages at a dozen articles, using multiple proxies. To prevent this kind of disruption, I would like the following articles and pages to be given temporary semi-protection:

• Misplaced Pages:Files for upload
• Líneas Aéreas Suramericanas
• Dassault Falcon 7X
• Juan Falconí Puig
• Mauricio Rodríguez Múnera
• SAEREO
• Martinair
• Icaro Air
• TAME
• Copa Airlines Colombia

There's even a bit of disruption from Russavia at WP:RPP, ironically, with the guy saying "fuck off binksternet" for good measure.
I know I'm supposed to notify a user who I am discussing at ANI but this guy is using throwaway proxies, and he clearly knows what is going on around here. Binksternet (talk) 05:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protecting WP:FFU would be counter productive, as new users and IP'a are the people who are meant to use it to request uploads.... --Mdann52talk to me! 06:01, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

@Mdann52: is now semi-protected for 3 days. How will IP editors be able to request files to be uploaded during this time? 122.52.157.88 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Gfoley4: Please consider unprotecting WP:FFU. Lots of IPs request files for upload and they need to be able to continue doing this. As an example, I took a look at the first 20 requests at Misplaced Pages:Files for upload/August 2014, and out of those, 20% had been placed by an IP. The remaining 80% requests were made by users with accounts, but presumably some of them weren't autoconfirmed yet. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Page protection might be acceptable, but this blanket reverting of IP edits (not even confirmed yet by a CU to be a ban evading sock) really isn't good - every edit reverted by Binksternet has been a good edit that improved each and every article, it just seems to be such a monumental waste of time and effort for all concerned to go around reverting edits, then someone else following behind re-reverting so as to 'take responsibility' for the edit.

There has to be a better long term solution than this endless nonsense, surely. Nick (talk) 17:43, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Good edits or not, Russavia is banned from editing. IP 85.234.141.185 doesn't need a CU, Russavia admitted using it. Mjroots (talk) 01:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

If the edits were made by an editor other than Russavia, would there be an issue with any of them? Tarc (talk) 01:45, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

If the other editor was also banned, then yes. - Bilby (talk) 02:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

That's not the question. Imagine that I were making them while logged out, saying who I was, and giving a good reason for being logged out: would there be an issue with any of them? Nyttend (talk) 03:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

You're not banned, so clearly no. :) That wouldn't be an issue. - Bilby (talk) 03:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Tarc was simply attempting to address the content of the edits themselves, regardless of who made them. Nyttend (talk) 03:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I understand what Tarc was trying to do, but in this case, who made the edits is the important issue, not the quality of the edits. Banned editors are no longer welcome to contribute to the project, especially when they continue to use socks and IPs to evade the community ban. - Bilby (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Who makes the edits is important if you are interested in playing a MMORPG. But Misplaced Pages is not a MMORPG. It's an encyclopaedia. Apparently. It should be noted that Bilby stalked my Commons uploads and created a two line stub at Lena Nyadbi to prevent me from creating it. Rather than preventing me from creating it, I expanded it. So question, do you think readers really give a fuck who created the content? People need to take their heads out of their arse and seriously answer that question. 213.55.112.138 (talk) 07:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

An editor who is banned may not contribute to Misplaced Pages. Period. It does not matter if their contribution was constructive or not, banned means banned. Quoting Misplaced Pages:Banning policy: The measure of a site ban is that even if the editor were to make good edits, permitting them to re-join the community poses enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, that they may not edit at all, even if the edits seem good. (emphasis in original). It doesn't matter if edits by a banned editor are creating a Featured Article from scratch - they are still banned, and the edits are unacceptable. If they want to contribute, they need to convince the community and/or Arbcom to lift the ban, then edit. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Why should Russavia (if it's him) be allowed to evade his ban? What makes him so special? If it is him, then he should be getting his head out of his 'you know what' & stay away. Again, I had to serve my time. GoodDay (talk) 10:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with The Bushranger. GoodDay is an example that a ban need not be forever. If Russavia want to return to the community, then he needs to prove to the community that he should be unbanned. Socking through multiple proxy IPs is not the way to go about this. Mjroots (talk) 10:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has policies for a reason and that is to provide a space for people to edit in relative harmony. There'll be disagreements and what not but for the most part the policies do work and things progress towards the encyclopedia we work towards. Banning an editor from WP is saying "you're not welcome here anymore as you have chosen not to abide by the rules that the community has created". If we then turn around and say "yeah, but they're doing good work! Why undo it?" basically pulls all of the fangs from policy. When any of us chose to become an editor here, we agreed to abide by the guidelines and policies of WP. Russavia, your argument that the reader will not care who wrote it is a red herring. The readership is one community and separate from the editorial community only overlapping when a reader becomes an editor. Your refusal to abide by the community's decisions and policies has resulted in your being ejected from WP, this is on you. Blackmane (talk) 13:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my question from last night was getting to the matter of the quality/content of the edits. If the content is good, and the edit is not pushing a particular POV, e.g.. in contravention of an Israel-Palesine or climate change ban or the like, then it is the height of childishness to revert just because of the person behind the revealed sock. This, I'm sorry, is a dick move; it was just a photo being placed into an article. Tarc (talk) 15:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc:, you seem to be missing the point here. That was an edit that any editor in good standing was entitled to make. Russavia is not an editor in good standing, and is not entitled to make any edits on en-Wiki. roolz is roolz, if you dont have roolz, what do you end up with? anarchy!. Mjroots (talk) 19:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Banned editors can edit. If they create a sock and stay away from the behavior/articles that will get them caught then obviously we have no way of identifying them. That's how they can participate. Against the roolz but there's only so much you can do. --NeilN 19:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Lol, "rules are rules" is what pencil-pushing government automatons would say. Strive to be more creative than the average IRS auditor or post office worker. If I see an edit reverted simply because of who it is, I'll simply reverse it and take ownership of it myself. You can ban the account, we'll still have an improved article, and everyone can be happy. Tarc (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

If ya wanna restore edits made by banned/blocked editors, that's your choice. Hopefully, it's not gonna encourage sock-puppetry. GoodDay (talk) 21:36, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

"If ya wanna restore good edits..." is what you mean. I don't see any problem with getting banned users to do good work. It's the bad edits that we don't want, and a banned user attempting to stay under the radar and still edit Misplaced Pages won't stick his head up to be caught. Isn't that right, GoodDay? --Pete (talk) 22:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I've never socked, Skyring. I didn't sock during the times I was blocked & didn't sock when I was banned. Why? Because those are the rules. I faithfully served my ban, so there's no reason why Russavia (or anyone else) can't. GoodDay (talk) 22:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I've always found it odd that some people will wait for the green man when it's two in the morning and the street is deserted. If "rules are rules" and the leaders of the Thirteen Colonies had taken that view, then the world would be a different place. Likewise if Nazi Germany had paid less attention to rules. Turning a blind eye to good edits by banned users serves two purposes. First, it improves the encyclopaedia. Second, if they are doing it to get noticed and cause people to run around with their heads off, then ignoring that behaviour keeps the project tranquil. If no harm is being caused, then where's the problem? Why make a fuss? Keep an eye on them by all means, but lean back, pour yourself a cold one and take a break while someone else does the work. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 22:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Invoking Godwin's Law is certainly an excellent way to come across as rational on a topic... Also, lets face reality. This isn't about improving Misplaced Pages for Russavia. This is all about his ego, and his desire to feel like he's better/more important than others. We do more to improve this project by RBI'ing him than we do indulging what amounts to a long-running temper tantrum. Resolute 23:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Just quietly, but the phrase "Invoking Godwin's Law" doesn't mean what you think it does, Reso. Think about it. --Pete (talk) 23:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest if editors want good edits made by sockpuppets of blocked or banned editors to not be reverted, then they should seek a changing of the rules, at Village Pump. GoodDay (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

You're not listening. It's not about the rules. The answer was given above - any editor can take a good edit as their own. That's just common sense. Do you really need to look at a rulebook to decide if an edit is vandalism or not? --Pete (talk) 05:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

You're not listening. The edit is invalid if made by a sockpuppet & therefore should be reverted. Why bother banning or blocking anyone, if we choose to allow their 'good' edits? With all due respect, you & I are on different trains of thought here & so it's best we discontinue the discussion. Resolute is correct, Russavia is likely getting his jollies at this moment. GoodDay (talk) 10:19, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it not supposed to be punitive though? Kirothereaper (talk) 10:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Editors are not blocked for their good edits. It's the less-than-good behaviour we discourage. As for getting jollies, there's a lot of fun to be had as a blocked editor in seeing other editors, of a particular anal bent, jumping about reverting good edits to the puzzlement of everyone else. Just turning a blind eye, ignoring trolls, is more productive than dancing to socks. --Pete (talk) 12:04, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, editors are not (supposed to be) blocked for good edits... I would go as far as to say that anyone who goes to any length to revert unambiguously good edits of banned or blocked users is in serious danger of breaking WP:POINT. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:41, 14 August 2014 (UTC).

I think that if you wish to take this stance, you may need to try and get WP:BAN changed - "Bans apply to all editing, good or bad ... The measure of a site ban is that even if the editor were to make good edits, permitting them to re-join the community poses enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, that they may not edit at all, even if the edits seem good." Although to clarify, we don't block for good edits - we block for ban evasion. - Bilby (talk) 21:30, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

A blocked/banned editor can create as much disruption as they want with a little creativity. Over-zealous attachment to trivial rules brings its own vulnerabilities. Those wishing to game the system and feeling they have nothing to lose aren't going to react well to rulemongers. --Pete (talk) 22:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

This is a similar tangent to the Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#If_I_may.... mini-brouhaha below; at what point can an editor in good standing take the reverted work of an editor in (sometimes allegedly) bad standing and call it their own? Tarc (talk) 22:28, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

In terms of content, immediately. If any of Russavia's edits are reverted under WP:BAN, and an editor decides to reinstate them, then that's fine and it can't be reverted on those grounds again. I have no idea how that applies to other issues, such as comments not related to content. - Bilby (talk) 22:39, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

What people are saying is that we should revert banned users' good edits and then wait for someone who isn't banned to un-revert them? which is obviously what will happen if they're constructive. sounds like bureaucracy to me. Remember that WP:IAR is policy, always has been. – filelakeshoe (t / c)  10:14, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• I have previously started a formal ban discussion, so you know where I stand. However I am taking a harder line this time, and calling for all Russavia's edits as a sock to be reverted as well. Clearly, not to do so merely encourages him. Ban him permanently, revert his sock edits and keep doing so until he admits defeat. Otherwise our rules about blocks and socking while blocked are meaningless. Do it starting now. Jusdafax 09:56, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, but that is pathetic. I have no love for Russavia either, esp over the Pricasso mess, but you're treating the project like a blood-soaked "take no prisoners" battleground. If he uses a sock to add a Photo A to Article X, and you revert that, what then? Is everyone barred forever after from inserting A into X? Tarc (talk) 13:10, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    • WP:BMB, WP:BANREVERT, and WP:PROXYING define what is and is not allowed, with the last saying the reasons to add it must be independent from the original banned user's edits. Although every time I've seen it it was "If you revert you take full responsibility for the content of the banned user's edit" or whatever it was.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
      • With respect, but that's ridiculous. Using a sock to make perfectly good edits is only disruptive if someone knows it's a sock. And, apart from good detective work, the usual way to pick a sock is some consistency of style. Or if the sock makes it obvious. And if people are then jumping all over the place getting hot under the collar and waving a rulebook, the banned/blocked editor is sitting back with a smile all over his face, having achieved his end. Yes, I know that the point of banning or blocking a user is so they can't participate, but for anyone with reasonable internet skills, that is easily avoidable. Why get all stressed up over something that is simply not achievable? And all to revert good edits? That's about as POINTy as it gets. And as pointless. --Pete (talk) 22:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Repeatedly inserting data for the same blocked editor over and over on multiple pages goes well beyond anything intended in our policies. I suggest that Tarc simply be blocked the next time he reinserts material originating with Russavia, and that he remain blocked until he agrees to stop.—Kww(talk) 16:04, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

While all this is happening, Lugia2453 is battling vandalism on this userbox (and now this one) by a series of IPs in Argentina changing it into a "I support the unbanning of Russavia" and also he's getting tagged as a sockpuppet of me by the IPs. Does he normally do this or is this just some other troll?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:14, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

That is, as described, not typical behavior for Russvia's socks, no. Revent 22:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, the IPs were going "I'm just an Argentinian" like the IP listed further below went "I'm just a Japanese".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:28, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Russavia's 'modus operandi' is to be intentionally quite blatant about his socking, not to deny it, from everything I have seen. Given his obvious ability to switch IPs at will, and given that he is almost undoubtedly also editing under 'quiet' socks, it would make little sense for him to attempt to 'justify' a particular IP as not being him. Revent 22:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Can we have a little bit more common sense here? It's evident that somebody, probably Russavia, is campaign to make WP:POINTY insertions of Commons images uploaded by Russavia into any en-wiki articles where they're arguably even remotely pertinent. That's disruptive, deliberately so, and the ensuing dispute here and elsewhere is exactly the disruption that whoever's behind the IP/SPas wants. Edits like these which add no value or negligible value to an article should be removed. However, images like these clearly add value to articles, fall within the exception for "clearly helpful" edits under WP:BANREVERT and the similar "productive" exception under WP:PROXYING and should be allowed to stand if restored/endorsed by a legitimate editor. Getting involved in an arcane discussion to justify removal of clearly appropriate content is just, in the long run, carrying water for Russavia. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 17:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• @Kww:, in both this comment the one that you closed out the "If I may..."section" below, you are dead wrong; I have never taken an action to restore material edited by Russavia. However, I do feel that any such edit should be evaluated on its merits rather tan on the author. So for example at the article Dassault Falcon 7X, there's no valid reason IMO to revert the adding of that image, and it appears that Nick has restored it already. Do you plan to threaten Nick with a block? Would you threaten to block me if I had restored it? Tarc (talk) 17:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • If Nick restores it, then it's Nick's edit. The orignal removal of the Russavia sock's edit, however, is perfectly legit and should be done, per WP:DENY. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:37, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• The edit summaries for and are interesting - it appears that some sort of co-ordinated action is taking place on IRC. Mass semi-protection seems to be the only answer here.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Those are just Russavia again, messing with our heads - he used the same IP on June 24. Would like to know how he manages to use IPs all over the world that are not apparent proxies. NawlinWiki (talk) 19:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    • That last IP belongs to Linode, which is a company that provides virtual private servers which for whatever reason is allocated in Japan rather than the US where Linode is based.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:27, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
      • @NawlinWiki: There are multiple ways that it can be done, that are not incredible obscure. Detailing the method that Russavia is most likely using, or any of the others, on the wiki would be inadvisable under WP:BEANS. Simply accypt the fact that it can be done, and that blocks and checkuser are easily evadable by anyone that is reasonably technically competent. I find it hard to believe that many, if not the majority, of blocked or banned users do not already return to editing using such measures. Revent 22:29, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support upholding policy (WP:BANREVERT and WP:Banned means banned) by reverting edits of banned user and preventing banned user from further editing by the best means necessary, which may be page protection of target articles. If user desires reinstatement, they are well aware of WP:STANDARDOFFER. Softlavender (talk) 22:35, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Responding to Blackmane above, but I can't work out where to put it after so much back and forth. Blackmane, you said, Banning an editor from WP is saying "you're not welcome here anymore as you have chosen not to abide by the rules that the community has created". If we then turn around and say "yeah, but they're doing good work! Why undo it?" basically pulls all of the fangs from policy. I see this exact same argument used all the time to excuse editors from being blocked. "They do good work, so we can excuse them the odd tantrum. They can abuse other editors and edit-war and create disruption so long as they contribute." Now, it seems to me that we can't have it both ways. --Pete (talk) 22:56, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

It's a slippery slope, I'll admit. I have a somewhat hardline view of things especially when it comes to policy, which would make me a rather poor admin. When I see many a good contributor go off the rails and just gets a slap on the wrist I see it as a slap in the community's face. Blackmane (talk) 02:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support upholding policy. We invite chaos and anarchy if we don't enforce policy against banned and/or blocked sockmasters. Revert all edits, protect articles, and in extreme cases use WMF litigation to actuate sanctions that will stop policy violators for once and for all. I would like to take note of the fact that an IP message on my talk page, presumably from the subject and challenging me to act as a policy enforcer or "shut up," was deleted recently by another editor. My response, post deletion, can be found there. Jusdafax 00:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Since the policy in question clearly states "This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor (obviously helpful changes, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand)", how is enforcing mandatory reversion of such edits "enforcing" the policy. It strikes me that the principles of WP:DENY provide better guidance. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 18:32, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

• • Jusdafax, you must have a high opinion indeed of WMF legal abilities to find and stop someone that technical measures cannot. I'm wondering just how far your "stop policy violators for once and for all" tactics would go. The Misplaced Pages SWAT team knocks on a door, sticks in a Kalishnikov and yells, "That was one good edit too many, motherfather!", maybe? I think you'd have a hard time convincing any judge that (say) adding well-sourced material, correcting errors and so on to an online encyclopaedia "that anyone may edit" merited any official interest. At some point, common sense comes into play, and just because there's a local consensus by some band of Wikipoos on some talk page somewhere to nuke someone who is annoying them by uploading Commons photos, it's not really something that's worth getting upset over. In fact, getting you upset is very likely the objective of the blocked/banned editor doing good work. Just to see you run around and get red in the face, or username. Ignore the trolls, always the best advice. --Pete (talk) 20:43, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
    • If the day has come when asking for existing Misplaced Pages policy to be enforced gets shushed, then I'd say the "dumbing down" of our editorship has gone pretty far. "Upset?" Do you see any caps, or cursing on my part? I am calmly making a comment regarding a blocked serial sockmaster who, in my view, should be dealt with firmly. And take note, he went to my talk page as an IP (subsequently and rightfully blocked) to taunt me. By any objective standard, he appears to be the one who is upset. Your comment is remarkably unconvincing. Jusdafax 21:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
      • When one gets to the point of invoking the WMF legal gods, I'd say that one is more than nettled. Obviously touching a nerve. Allcaps not required. Asking for policy to be enforced by the courts - and I'm talking about good edits by a banned user here - is going further than is reasonable. IMHO. And again, in a community where one of the rules is "Ignore All Rules", just how dogmatic can one be? We don't have a community where every little rule is enforced and we seem to have done very well in our efforts. If we changed our model to one where enforcement of trivial rules was at the point of a gun, I don't think we'd do quite so well. I think people would make fun of us. --Pete (talk) 21:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
        • People already make fun of us. So what? The point is not that the edits by the editor are good or bad, it is that he has been told to stand down and continues to not only edit, but harass editors who, for whatever reason, he does not like or agree with. My particular skin is pretty tough, but how many people have left off editing because of this intractable and hostile blocked user. That as I see it is the issue at hand, and the core of my concern. If "ignore all rules" is the best you can offer in defense of a multiple sockmaster who taunts those with the temerity to stand up to him publicly, then our view of Misplaced Pages policy is irreconcilable. As for legal action, it should be pretty much a last resort. But a cease and desist court order, the virtual equivalent of restraining order, would get the attention of sockmasters worldwide. It should be, in my view, a viable tool for the WMF to use in wildly exaggerated cases. Jusdafax 22:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
          • It's not this - or any other - particular case that I'm talking about. I'm addressing your general comments above: We invite chaos and anarchy if we don't enforce policy against banned and/or blocked sockmasters. Revert all edits, protect articles, and in extreme cases use WMF litigation to actuate sanctions that will stop policy violators for once and for all. It's the attitude that all of Misplaced Pages's trivial rules must be enforced. By the courts if necessary. Asking a judge to take action over someone adding good material to Misplaced Pages goes well beyond common sense. IMHO. --Pete (talk) 22:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
            • The community kicked him out because of his behavior. It doesn't matter if he's writing good content if he's not adding it in good faith, considering he knows full well he's been banned and he's just showing that such a trivial thing won't stop him rather than abiding by the honor system in place and then ask to be allowed back on the community's terms. The banning policy may be in place to keep people rolling back obvious disruption like vandalism and trolling from being blocked for it, but how Russavia has been acting is disruptive, even if he is producing content that no one would have second thoughts about if he was not banned. WP:BAN does include the caveat that content could be kept after examination by another party to see if it should be included under the same umbrella that defines "revert it because it shouldn't have happened in the first place".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
              • Thanks, nice summary. What you going to do? Ban him for being disruptive? React to trolling? Revert good edits? Can't see a win here. --Pete (talk) 02:37, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
                • There isn't any good answer, but I'm already on his shit list for having said anything here and for having the gall to try to clean up disruption that spilled over from here to the Commons, so I've lost any good faith I could have had in him considering I never dealt with him prior to the David Horvitz cleanup.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
• LOL isn't this guy a sysop at Commons? Stay classy, Wikimedia... Kindzmarauli (talk) 18:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Harassment following SPI

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Borsoka (talk · contribs · count) Made an unfounded accusation that Akifumii (now called Xermano) was a sock. After the case closed with no evidence of socking, Borsoka has apparently continued to harass Xermano (in Hungarian).

• after the SPI case closed

I gave warning that I would act on continued provocation, to no avail.

• my warning
• after I gave warning and Xermano asked Borsoka to stop
• and once more

I'd like an admin response to this witchhunt. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris troutman, would you please ask Xermano to translate my messages? I have not sent any harrasing messages to him/her. Borsoka (talk) 05:08, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you translate for us, Chris?--v/r - TP 05:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Nope, sure can't. I'd be glad if a third party could handle that. I've notified Xermano of this ANI post. My assumption is based off of Xermano's previous reaction to Borsoka's message. Borsoka has at least become an unwelcome guest at that talk page. Chris Troutman (talk) 05:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris troutman, would you please stop harrasing me. First you accused me of Misplaced Pages:OWN (here) without evidence. Next you suggested (also here) that I only initiated a sock-puppet investigation, because an article created by me received a template. Later, without being able to read the message written in Hungarian, you accussed me of harrasing (also here). I again suggest you that you should imagine a world where editors are not driven by bad emotions. Borsoka (talk) 05:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Also no. I've seen no evidence to refute my assertions. You screwed up and you should've backed away when I warned you at the outset. Believe me, I would be happy to be proved wrong, apologize, and leave this alone. However, you foolishly said "if you think it is harassement, please take me to an ANI" and so I have. Chris Troutman (talk) 05:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Foolishly? Chris troutman, I again suggest you that you should assume good faith. I said that you could any time take me an ANI, because I was sure that I had not (and I would not) made any harrassement to anybody. Borsoka (talk) 05:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

To avoid a biased translation, I will ask Armbrust, a fellow Hungarian to translate the messages at my talk page. Xermano 06:34, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Xermano, I trust your fairness. Please translate it yourself, because you are a native speaker of Hungarian. Actually, I insist on your translation. Borsoka (talk) 06:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused here because your insistence here is basically a declaration against a neutral thrid party being involved. Why?--67.68.22.129 (talk) 07:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Because there is no need to involve a third party. These are so basic texts. You can translate them in 10 minutes, and this case will be closed. Borsoka (talk) 07:08, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Xermano, I am surprised that you have not translated the texts yet, because you are a native speaker of Hungarian, and your English is excellent. Sorry, but I would like this investigation to be closed in short, because I would like to concentrate on editing articles. Would you please tell us whether my texts on your Talk page contained any harrasing message? If you think there was a harrassing message, please translate only that part. Borsoka (talk) 07:34, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Xermano, a fellow Hungarian editor, Fakirbakir, expressed his/her doubts about your knowledge of the Hungarian language here. If you are only pretending that you can speak our language, please tell us, because in this case we actually need a translator in order to assist the administrators to close this case. Borsoka (talk) 08:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris troutman You should apologize to Borsoka. Your comment "You screwed up and you should've backed away when I warned you at the outset" is impolite and unacceptable. Regarding the conversation between Xermano and Borsoka, I assume Xermano does not speak Hungarian. Her/his account is suspicious (IMHO). Fakirbakir (talk) 09:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

One does wonder how Akifumii/Xermano, who initially claimed on his userpage that he was a native speaker of Canadian English and French, with professional knowledge of Spanish, Galician and Catalan, and who became a "Translation Administrator" at Wikimedia Outreach (outreach:User:Akifumii), but whose actual "Galician" translations on that project look suspiciously like machine translations and contain some rather glaring errors (see outreach:Best_practices/gl, which among other things translates "best practice articles" as if it meant "best articles about practice" rather than "articles about best practice"), has suddenly become a native speaker of Hungarian with professional knowledge in English, German and Romanian. Isn't it a bit deceptive to make yourself a "translation administrator" on a Wikimedia project on the basis of faked credentials? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise: and he/she also forgot to speak Basque while transforming from Akifumii to Xermano. (Interestingly, Akifumii's Basque knowledge was mentioned during the sock-puppet investigation process. All the same, I am desperately asking the administrators to close this case, because I would really like to concentrate on editing.) Borsoka (talk) 10:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The text Borsoka sent me on my talk page does not contain any harassment of any sort, in my opinion. Sorry lately I have been active on Wikia instead of Misplaced Pages. All User:Borsoka said was that "We do not need Armbrsut to translate for us. I object a third party to translate my messages" Xermano 16:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Xermano, thank for the above clarification even if I do not understand why you suggested a third party translation hours ago if you was well aware the fact that I had not harrassed you. Your absent-mindedness could have easily caused new offending or harrassing remarks by Chris troutman about me. I hope the case now can be closed. Have a nice day! I am sure that we (together with Fakirbakir) will continue our communication in our beautiful language and we can cooperate in improving many many articles. Sorry, but it was so strange that you did not want to translate the text, but now I understand you. Your English is not so excellent as I thought, and that is why you were not able to translate exactly my words. Borsoka (talk) 16:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm still waiting on third-party translation and admin intervention. I suspect shenanigans. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris troutman, are you kidding? You declared that I had harrassed Xermano - Xermano declared that I had not harrassed him/her. Please stop harrassing me. Sorry, but I cannot imagine how you can have any administrative role in our community. Do you really fight against vandalism??? Borsoka (talk) 18:05, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

It's ok if User:Chris troutman would like a third party translation even though Borsoka has not harassed me. The third party translator will find nothing bad that Boroka has put on my talk page. @Borsoka: User:Chris troutman is a very experienced editor and my CVUA trainer. He often fights against vandalism and helps other users. Please do not make such assumptions. Xermano 18:09, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I cannot imagine how he/she can fight against vandalism. My experiance is that his/her style of communication is uncivil and he/she can only assume bad faith of other editors. Borsoka (talk) 18:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

My main issue with all of this is that even if they aren't a sockpuppet, you think you would like to mention that you are Hungarian under your userboxes on Akifumii's page. On that page, he says that he is Canadian and is studying in the United States. Nowhere does he suggest that he is Hungarian, or a native speaker of the Hungarian language. Personally, it would be hard for me to edit here all of these years, and forget that I know English and grew up in America, as well as visited multiple countries in the meantime. In his rename, he now lives in Budapest, and now speaks Hungarian. The languages were also further jumbled around, with the removal of many of those on Akifumii's page, and the addition of a few others. I am leery of giving any trust to anyone who is acting like this, although I would like to see what others think before I move ahead with any action. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:44, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Please see the messages on User:Xaosflux talk page. Xermano 03:45, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Ktr101, it was me who initiated a sock puppet investigation against Akifumii (now called Xermano), because I assumed that he/she was identical with Afro-Eurasian. Bbb23 closed it, stating that "Akifumii has an impressive list of credentials, here in a very short time in terms of the privileges that have been accorded him, and elsewhere in other wiki and wikimedia projects that make it unlikely that he is a puppet of anyone". I am a simple editor with no credentials, so I cannot determine whether his/her credentials are authentic or fake. According to Future Perfect at Sunrise's above remark his/her knowledge of Galician (claimed under the name Akifumii) is dubious. All the same, if Akifumii/Xermano is a native speaker of Hungarian, he/she cannot be identical with Afro-Eurasian, because the latter declared (here , in the "Personal beliefs" section) that he/she was "Hungarophobe" (and also "Russophobe", "anti-Zionist", etc.). Afro-Eurasian also used disgusting anti-Hungarian slur. Nevertheless, I assume Akifumii/Xermano could not properly translate my Hungarian message because his/her English is poor, not because he/she cannot speak Hungarian. When I suggested him/her a cooperation on his/her Talk page in Hungarian, he/she answered me saying "Thank you" in the same language. There are few Hungarian editors, so I would not like to lose him/her. Borsoka (talk) 04:01, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Borsoka, Akifiumii got all the advance permissions by deceiving me into granting them and I have just found that out myself through this ANI discussion. So I want to thank you, Borosoka, for spotting something fishy and decided to investigate further. I'm going to start a sub-section below to demonstrate just how far Akifiumii has deceived the community. OhanaUnited 04:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what happened to the sub-section, but, regardless of that, the purpose of SPI is to determine whether someone is socking. The burden is on the reporter to present sufficient evidence of socking. Whether the user is a problem in some other way is not the province of SPI. I don't question Borsoka's good faith, but he simply was unable to present sufficient evidence to connect the user with the master. It's fairly usual in such cases to close the report with no action.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:58, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Bbb23, sorry, I did not want to offend you. I remember that during the previous SPI only a CU could prove that the suspected editor, along with many other editors, was in fact Afro-Eurasian's sockpuppet, because the evidence that I presented seemed unsufficient. An administrator initiated a CU because she was also convinced, for reasons she did not want to reveal, that it is a sockpuppetry. Sorry, but my English is rather poor and I am not good at administrative issues, that is why I cannot always express myself properly. Nevertheless, Xermano, who proudly declares that he/she is a native speaker of Hungarian on his/her user page, can hardly be identical with the Hungarophobe, Russophobe, anti-Zionist, ... Afro-Eurasian. Borsoka (talk) 05:30, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

No worries, Borsoka, I wasn't the least bit offended. Regardless of the socking issue, from the looks of below, Xermano is going to be dealt with. Also, based on the history, I don't believe that OhanaUnited is the only administrator who was fooled.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:36, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

@Chris troutman:, taking into account the events what have happened in the meantime, would you please agree to close my case? I did not harass your pupil. Please, let me concentrate on editing. Borsoka (talk) 05:56, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

@Armbrust: @MusikAnimal: What say you? Chris Troutman (talk) 06:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris troutman, I hope you will learn based on this case when you should be cautious and when you can trust an editor. My feeling is that an editor who is not a native speaker of English is always suspicious for you, especially when this barbarian attacks somebody who has several times expressed his/her thanks for you in excellent English. I understand: the barbarians must always be overcome. Borsoka (talk) 06:47, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

@Chris troutman:, @TParis:, I translated my messages. You can read the translations always below the relevant texts here. (Armbrust informed me that he would not like to be involved in the case and he did not like translating.) Borsoka (talk) 19:14, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

@Borsoka: Your translations seem to evince your hounding of Akifumii/Xermano. Some of your comments here (about barbarians, etc) including your eagerness for me to let the matter drop indicate to me that you are aware of your guilt. I leapt to Akifumii's defense at the SPI based on my interactions with them for CVUA. Clearly, Akifumii/Xermano has been less than forthcoming and I'm beginning to think I made a mistake getting involved. Still, your conduct needs to be addressed and I'm happy to watch this train-wreck continue until an admin puts an end to it. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:45, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

@Chris troutman:, I know that I am not guilt, because it was not a hounding. It was a hunt for a sockpuppet of a banned editor who was taking a new personality similarly to the way he had several times done beforehead (I refer to my below remarks of the multiple CVs of Afro-Eurasian and his socks). Yes, I have experienced that you can only assume bad faith of those who attack a favorite of yours. This lack of neutrality is the reason I think you should not have any administrative role in our community. You are talking of witchhunt and hounding, but it was you who accused me of WP:OWN without knowing anything of my past, or who accused me of harrasing based on messages written in a language you do not understand. You should be ashamed of your behavior, but it is obvious that you are unable to realize this. Actually, on my part, this was the last piece of communication to you. I wish you new experiences for the future. Borsoka (talk) 20:27, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Deception by Akifumii/Xermano

Since Xermano disclosed that everything Akifumii provided were "all a dare and a lie", I will be summarizing what Akifumii has emailed me to get various permissions (email copies are available upon request). Akifumii began editing on April 30, 2014. Six days later, he contacted me to inquire how to be involved in Canadian education program. I told him the usual (read five pillars, get some edits, communicate with others). In an email dated May 9, he told me that he is a Canadian from British Columbia and recently moved to California for college. Three days later, he asked me to grant him reviewer and rollbacker. At that point I granted those rights because he seemed to be trustworthy (but now it all appears to be an elaborate scheme/confidence trick to deceive myself and others to get those tools) In June, he made an application to become an online ambassador. He explained to me, through email, that he can only be helping Canadian universities through online and not on-campus since he is in California.

Ever since Akifumii changed his username to Xermano, we're starting to see that his deceptions are finally catching up. Akifumii claims Canada to be his home country and grew up there yet Xermano says he is a native Hungarian. Akifumii absolutely made no mention on Hungary and claimed have visited Brazil during the World Cup in 2012 (wrong, they just hosted it earlier this year). We now know why he wanted to be an online ambassador not because he is studying in California, but because he lives in Hungary. We also noticed the completely absence of Hungarian language on Akifumii's userpage plus a few other languages (e.g. German, Romanian) that mysteriously appeared on Xermano's userpage while Portuguese, Japanese and Chinese were dropped quietly. All these evidences point to the fact that I have lost all confidence in Akifumii/Xermano because we simply don't know when is he telling the truth and when is he giving us crap and bull. OhanaUnited 05:22, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Based on this behavior, I have removed his "Online volunteer" right, as I am not comfortable with having a user with this kind of edit pattern participate in the program. If anyone wants to revert me, please go ahead and do so as I will not object if a good reason is given, but I just wanted to explain why I did what I did. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:31, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly, a sockpuppet of the Hungarophobe, ... etc Afro-Eurasian also deceived an administrator . Borsoka (talk) 05:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

And his online ambassador application successfully deceived User:Neelix into supporting him too. I think all of us fell for it because we all used AGF and he exploited it. OhanaUnited 06:23, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Another interesting coincidence, that Afro-Eurasian also changed his identity from his sockpuppet to sockpuppet. Afro-Eurasian was a Latin man who had been born and lived in Florida . One of his sockpuppets, Paleolithic Man also said that he was a man living in Florida, but under a new (Basque) real life name . His next sockpuppet, Southeastern European, said that he had been born in Southeastern Europe , but at the same time a fourth (or 14th) sockpuppet said that he is a "Moroccan American" . @Xermano:, please answer my next question: are you a native Hungarian speaker or you are only pretending it? I have not read any long sentence written by you in Hungarian. Borsoka (talk) 06:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

@Xermano:, igazán elárulhatnád, hogy beszélsz magyarul vagy nem. Jó lenne már lezárni ezt az egész vizsgálatot, mert nagyon unom, hogy állandóan figyelnem kell, éppen ki mit ír ide. Mellesleg, ha nem vagy magyar, akkor biztos vagyok abban, hogy azonos vagy a magyargyűlölő soviniszta Afro-Eurasian-nal, és kezdeményezek egy Misplaced Pages:LTA vizsgálatot ellened, mivel eddig még a minimális szintjét sem mutattad a megbánásnak gusztustalan magyarellenes megjegyzéseddel kapcsolatban. Borsoka (talk) 13:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Now that we know his first persona was a lie, and seeing how much effort he put into collecting hats and alleged wiki-qualifications on the basis of that persona, I think it's not unreasonable that we should treat his new persona with the same kind of suspicion. As far as I'm concerned, Xermano had better quickly provide some evidence that at least the linguistic skills of his new persona are true (i.e.: produce some realistic talk in Hungarian + German etc.), or I think I will treat him as some kind of sock or bad-faith account after all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:32, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

OhanaUnited's explanation of the Akifumii/Xermano confidence trick makes sense to me. I was wrong to have supported the online ambassador application. Neelix (talk) 13:23, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the case is more serious than at first alleged. I asked Xermano in Hungarian a couple days ago (here) but she/he did not reply to me. Borsoka had also asked her/him in Hungarian (see above) but s/he gave no respond. She/he wrote only one Hungarian word "koszonom" (meaning "thank you") here but was unable to write proper Hungarian sentences. A "koszonom" is not a big deal with Google translator, however translator programs are useless at more sophisticated Hungarian sentences. I assume she/he is not from Budapest and not a native Hungarian speaker. Perhaps, an IP address investigation could determine her/his location... Fakirbakir (talk) 22:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Is an IP investigation truly necessary? He hasn't edited since this ANI case against was unveiled, and it sounds as if most of the privileges and rights that he has accumulated as a result of this are being peeled away. It seems that his inability or unwillingness to communicate with User:Borsoka in Hungarian should be enough, right? We don't need to go creeping into his geographical location beyond that, because our goal isn't to prove that he is really living in Hungary right now but that he has the ability to speak Hungarian and participate in those areas of the project where that language skill is needed. If he has those skills, it matters little if he currently lives in Hungary or if he lives in Zimbabwe. If he does NOT have those skills and he is in fact lying, then his present geographic location is not relevant. Alicb (talk) 16:38, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@Alicb:, yes, I think it is necessery. Please see here my reasoning. Borsoka (talk) 16:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

New account info from User:Xaosflux

As seen in this archive on my talk, User:Akifumii and User:Xermano are either the same person (or a compromised account); I assisted in moving permissions from one account to the other that were both strongly linked, and included the relationship in the logs. I have no idea if there was a link beterrn Akifumii and any other accounts prior. If anyone has specific questions about my action, please ping me. — xaosflux 12:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Xaosflux, the issue I raised has nothing to do with suspected sockpuppetry (Afro-Eurasian/Paleolithic Man/Southeastern European) or trasnferring permission from Akifumii to Xermano because I already saw the conversation in your archived usertalk page. It has to be with the all the lies Akifumii made up to get those tools in the first place. I for one am no longer comfortable working with him in the Canadian Education Program because he lacks integrity. In fact, after communicating with Kevin Rutherford, I realized that Akifumii intentionally created a gmail account specifically to pull off this deception. I agree with Fut.Perf. We don't even know if what Xermano told us is even true (or that he is coming clean is actually "clean"). Does anyone disagree if I rescind Akifumii/Xermano's reviewer and rollback rights? (I gave him these rights so I should take responsibility and be the one to clean up this mess.) OhanaUnited 20:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I would have no problem with you removing his user rights. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

OhanaUnited I defer to anyone who wants to handle this, my addition were procedural only. — xaosflux 21:21, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

FYI: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Afro-Eurasian Borsoka (talk) 16:08, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

After 3 days and don't see any opposition, I have removed Xermano's rights and deemed the removal to be "under the cloud" as per the general consensus discussed above. OhanaUnited 18:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

• I have indeffed both accounts based on the egregious deception. Clearly, the user is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Editors like this one have no business being permitted to edit.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this. This case draws a lot of similarities to Essjay controversy OhanaUnited 06:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

ISO 8601

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User: JMJimmy insists on installing and reinstating a completely incomprehensible version of ISO 8601#Date. The editor has participated in extensive talk page discussion, but his responses are indirect, discursive, and difficult to comprehend. I am unable to discern if the editor sincerely believes the editors edits are useful, or if the editor is a troll. I started an RFC, Talk:ISO 8601#RFC: Does ISO 8601 use the Gregorian calendar?, but not enough editors participated to convince the editor that the editor was in an extreme minority. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Seems an insane amount of work to go through if I were trolling. The version, prior to any edits by myself, contained factually false information, information not relevant to the standard, and it generally lacked a significant amount of relevant information. My good faith edits to improve and add to it have been met with hostility from Jc3s5h who was the source of some of the information. I have, repeatedly, made revisions to remove/adjust my contributions when consensus was reached whereas Jc3s5h prefers to delete text and make bad faith* edits for content that is being discussed on the talk page before consensus is reached. Why this was escalated to administrators I do not know, I would think there are more appropriate resolution processes to attempt before going to this extreme. *Note, for clarity, I believe that edit to be in bad faith as, even after significant discussion on the topic and clear evidence in the text, it intentionally seeks to change the meaning back to Jc3s5h viewpoint despite no evidence/supporting documentation/opinions other than his to the contrary. It also removes 99% of the information I added in good faith, cited, and worked with other editors to improve. JMJimmy (talk) 17:13, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Neither version is particularly well worded in my opinion. MaybeWP:3O would help? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC).

I don't know which two versions Rich Farmbrough is referring to. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:49, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

MaybeWP:3O would help?

The disagreements may be more complex than appropriate for WP:30. A third editor - myself - is involved. Mostly I tend to agree with Jc3s5h's viewpoints and disagree with JMJimmy's, but it's not as simple as "two view points, multiple editors". There are several points of disagreement (as I see it), some of which are related to each other:

• Whether or not ISO 8601 defines its own specific version of the Gregorian calendar (I'm not actually clear on whether this is a disputed point or not, but I include it for completeness)
• Whether the year 0000 is a reference point in the proleptic Gregorian calendar
• Whether conversion between other calendars (eg Julian) and Gregorian is within the scope of the standard (and thus the article), and whether parties exchanging date/time data using 8601 are required to mutually agree on such conversion
• Whether the term "Gregorian UTC" is meaningful and/or should be used
• Whether or not 8601 recommends UTC ("Gregorian" or otherwise)

Some of those ought to be able to be split out into separate sections and discussed apart from the others - it might help. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I wrote a rather long response here since Jc3s5h brought in a 3rd editor as well as perusing this dispute mechanism. I think Mitch is right though, this subject is of such a complex nature that a clear guidance from administrators would be appreciated. The above is really the tip of the ice burg if a series wide improvement is ever to occur. JMJimmy (talk) 17:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi! This isn't the appropriate forum for requesting editorial guidance from administrators (and please note that administrators' opinions in matters of disputed content are not generally afforded more import than those of other editors.) You might consider a RFC, or pursuing the dispute-resolution options available at WP:DRR. betafive 18:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I share your view that this is not the appropriate forum, it is merely the one put upon me and being insisted upon. An RFC was initiated by Jc3s5h almost immediately (without really trying to talk through it). Mitch was the only respondent. Just to clarify, I was not meaning intimate that import was somehow to resolve this, just that clear guidance is needed (by consensus or some other mechanism) from those with experience (and ideally knowledge of the subject). It's not really an issue that a weekend-wikier will likely be able to delve into in a meaningful way. 18:50, 15 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMJimmy (talk • contribs)

Note that some of the disagreements on the ISO 8601 talk page are apparently about policy, not just article content. Both Jc3s5h and I have pointed out that some of JMJimmy's edits and/or talk page assertions are contrary to WP:NOR, but JMJimmy seems to think that it is necessary in this case. I disagree, and said so. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:PSTS / WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD may apply, again I don't think this is the venue for that discussion. WP:RSN or WP:ORN would likely be more suitable. I would maintain that standards fall somewhere between a primary and secondary source. They are primary in the sense that they are similar to law sources in their codification. They are secondary in the sense that they are, in general, the consensus of experts in the field who evaluate the collective sources on a subject. ISOs especially require a multi-stage process that has experts/organizations/governments/committees/etc for peer review prior to publishing, 1 voting member from each participating country in that process and 75% agreement further aids peer review/acceptance, explicit (though lengthy & dense) definitions/document structures which provide detailed guidance on how to interpret and weighting of elements, they are not static like law sources (ie: are updated as expert consensus demands), after official publishing they are opened up further to the global communities being influenced for comments and are not confirmed as stable if any significant issues arise, and finally they are authoritative to all possibilities within their scope. Sources discussing them never cover all possibilities, they often only examine a single perspective of a portion of a standard in context of a particular agreement. The effect is, for the lack of a proper term, a Perspectivism paradox. JMJimmy (talk) 12:42, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I suggest that when in article is about an ISO standard, that ISO standard is necessarily a primary source, and so (quoting WP:PRIMARY) we may "make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge", but we may not "analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

What Admin Action is Requested in This Content Dispute?

What administrative action is being requested in this content dispute? A block? No evidence has been given of personal attacks, disruptive editing, or full-sized edit-warring. A topic ban? No evidence has been given of tendentious editing, ownership behavior, or other issues rising to TBAN. An interaction ban? I see two editors who do not like each other, but it hardly rises to the difficulty of enforcing an IBAN. Why is this at this noticeboard in the first place? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

There is an RFC in progress. It hasn't run 30 days, although it clearly won't resolve anything, because it has already resulted in long tedious discussion with no conclusion. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I see nothing being discussed here that calls for admin action. Either a better RFC should be formulated, and the previous one closed down (if its originator will agree), or the dispute can go to the dispute resolution noticeboard, or something else should be done rather than continuing here. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree 100% - @Jc3s5h: shall we allow the RFC to run its course and see what comes out of it? JMJimmy (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The problem I have with the way the RFC are responses that, in my mind, are to long to comprehend, bring in irrelevant material, and avoid restrictions made by posters on their statements, for example, an editor adds a sentence to the standard that only applies to standard-compliant representations of dates, but is criticized as if it applied to a much wider range of written dates. I will make one more attempt to participate in the RFC, but will abandon it if I again perceive that contributions are intended to obscure the meaning of the discussion. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:20, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The basic problem with the RFC, in my opinion, is that it doesn't have the recommended Survey and Threaded Discussion sections. As a result, it is all Threaded Discussion, and will be nearly impossible to close with any sort of consensus. It will just give posters a chance to post more walls of text that are too long to read. Can someone state a question that can be added to a Survey section (either in the old RFC or a new RFC)? I would do that, but I am not sure what the question is. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Once again, is there a reason why this was brought to this noticeboard, or was the OP wasting pixels? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

When one editor reverts changes that a few editors view as improvements and discusses the reversion in an incomprehensible manner the article is locked in a form that readers cannot understand. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT. The claim that the article is "locked" in a form that readers cannot understand is just plain wrong. It isn't locked. In any case, you haven't answered my question as to why you brought the issue to this noticeboard. What admin action are you requesting? A block for the non-existent lock? A topic-ban for the incomprehensible discussion on the talk page? An IBAN? What? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:35, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:Matthiaspaul

Hi.

I have been wanting to avoid coming here for a long time but it appears it cannot be avoided. User talk:Matthiaspaul and I contribute to the computing area of Misplaced Pages. We disagree a lot. Except, his manner is somewhat lacking. He never talks to me; he may talk at me if he condescends. (Wikipedians in dispute must communicate much more.) And he never assume good faith, rather he directly accuses me of sabotage.

• Instance #1: I filed a technical move request for moving CMD.EXE to cmd.exe. Obviously, he disagrees and contacts the moving admin. So far, okay. But in his message, Matthiaspaul:

1. Accuses me of deliberately ignoring a consensus. ("Lisa was fully aware of MOS:COMPUTING as well as of this move discussion, but has announced to ignore the consensus.")
2. Accuses me of verbally attacking administrator User:Jenks24. (Jenks24 later refutes this. Still, what does rudeness have to do with the appropriateness of a rename request?)
3. Accuses me of gaming the system by bypassing the procedure. ("If Lisa really wants the article names changed for some odd reasons, she should issue proper move discussions, instead of trying to game the system by bypassing the procedure.") This sentence is equal to saying WP:RM/TR is not the procedure.

• Instance #2: This time, I am subjected to personal attack in spite of having done absolutely nothing. Following the closure and eventual move of CMD.EXE to cmd.exe, another user asks whether the remaining pages must be moved or they need a separate move discussion. Matthiaspaul objects by saying:

I get the feeling that Lisa and Fleet in a concerted effort are violently attempting to force the lowercase forms into articles where they do not belong into, and this is really getting annoying with all their (groundless) personal attacks and aggressive editing/reverting.

What? I didn't even say a word; how does it become "personal attacks and aggressive editing/reverting"? Since when does starting a dispute resolution process is counted as "concerted effort to violently attempting ..."? If anything, there were six other supporting parties in that discussion.

These points are just tip of the ice berg, with the ice berg being the neighboring diffs or more talks in the same talk pages. But there are more disputes. For example, back in 2013, I filed a WP:RM/TR request for CHKDSK, which was rejected. An admin started a full RM on my behalf without asking me (definitely in good faith) but in the interest of avoiding WP:POINT, I withdrew the full discussion. Matthiaspaul revived it simply to exhibit his opposition and his message accused me of subverting MOS:COMPUTING for my own purpose. (This issue actually came up in Talk:Cmd.exe § ‎Move request – CMD.EXE to Cmd.exe.)

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 21:38, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Lisa! I am confused about what sort of intervention you are requesting from administrators. May I suggest WP:DRR? betafive 17:48, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Betafive. It appear you did not notice that I am just out of a successful WP:DRR. Stress on successful. Here is what I am requesting.

Bearing in mind that civility and collegial cooperation is one of our founding pillars here, I am starting to feel concerned that if he keeps dragging my name in the mud like that, I lose my reputation unjustly. If people keep hearing "Codename Lisa lied" repeatedly enough, regardless of the fact, they start to look at me like a liar. (This has actually happened once.) I perfectly understand that admins are not at liberty to kick anyone out of Misplaced Pages permanently just because of offending someone a couple of times. And we certainly don't want to lose a knowledgeable editor, do we? But a warning at this stage has significant remedial power. So, for now, please tell him to stop.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 23:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Preliminary admin note - I would like to give Matthiaspaul a chance to respond to this - he does not appear to have edited since the initiation of this discussion - but preliminarily, I will comment that editors are encouraged to cultivate a collegial atmosphere conducive to collaboration, a standard that some of the edits above do not appear to meet. That said, I would like to give Matthiaspaul a chance to respond in case there is any confusion. Thanks. Go Phightins! 04:58, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Note - I have alerted Anthony Appleyard to this conversation as he was the one that Matthiaspaul appealed to with regards to the page moves. - Penwhale | 05:19, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

There is a very strange thing in MP's edits; a Codename Lisa-fighting mentality.

It was I who started the WP:RM discussion in Talk:Cmd.exe and I saw it end. But he says "...Lisa and Fleet in a concerted effort are violently attempting...". (Call me crazy but I feel he is denying me the credit the should be solely mine.)

Another example is: Command Prompt. Five editors reverted there, an IP user edit-warred. Two of these users are those against whom there is (or at least, once has been) a certain degree of intolerance in ANI and AN3: Dogmaticeclectic and I. Yet, MP constantly calls it "Codename Lisa's edit war".

What MP did in CHKDSK is a little queer too. I definitely won't revive a withdrawn proposal to oppose it, much less to call the OP a liar. I'd just do nothing. If it was just reviving and one forth-and-back revert, you could assume good faith. But you can't mistakes trees for a jungle, can you?

Fleet Command (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I suggest closing this frivolous report, warning User:Codename Lisa for making a frivolous report, and warning User:FleetCommand for purposely using a link to my username that does not notify me of its use. (Note that these two users have thrown around personal attacks left and right yet this seems to have been ignored by administrators for some reason.) Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 12:28, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

• Dogmaticeclectic: I briefly looked at this, and I believe that the report is not frivolous. As FleetCommand's usage of your name does not call into question of your actions, it's not really an issue, although he probably should have let you know on your talk page about this conversation. - Penwhale | 23:38, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Massive vandalism at Douglas Pereira dos Santos

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but there's a giant mess going on at Douglas Pereira dos Santos featuring several IPs and at least two editors with no contributions but vandalizing the article. Egsan Bacon (talk) 17:05, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

It looks like Acroterion was kind enough to straighten the mess out. Article semi-protected and socks blocked.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 17:33, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I got interrupted by real life, but have blocked eight accounts and IPs and semi-protected the article for two weeks. I assume the subject changed teams and has enraged some people. Anybody who actually knows his status probably ought to update the article, though outdated at least is better than vandalized. For such large-scale and apparently coordinated vandalism, this is probably the best place to bring it up. Acroterion (talk) 17:46, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing that, that was outright horrible vandalism. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification as well. I've never used ANI before, so I wasn't sure about that. Egsan Bacon (talk) 19:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism by different IPs, different Usernames

All edits are by different IPs and different Usernames but they always add the same sentence (He lives in the shadow of his uncles majesty.) since 1,5 years. Is there anything that can be done about this or do we just need to revert the edits over and over again? 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53

Dynara23 | talk 21:31, 16 August 2014 (UTC).

Semi-protected the article for six months for the slow edit-warring and added PC1.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 21:49, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

that is creepy poetic. Jytdog (talk) 04:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Taipei

A couple of days ago I was told to apply RBI to odd nationalistic edits being made to Taipei and other pages. It's not helping. 74.3.6.26 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is insistent that I'm a communist hacker from Shanghai because I'm reverting his clearly stated ROC nationalism. Can someone block him ASAP?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, to be honest I'm skipping the "I" bit because I tried to open a line of dialog and I can't do the "B" bit because I'm not an admin, so I guess it's just "R".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:22, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

IP-in-question, has been blocked. GoodDay (talk) 02:44, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

He's on 2600:1012:B013:F751:4478:5FB9:122E:49B7 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) now.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:56, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

So, after all this happened, Fcsong (talk · contribs) came along to restore the problematic wording, after which the page was fully protected. I've since discovered that the bulk of Fcsong's edits are to institute a similar nationalistic view point on the political status of Taiwan by persistently replacing "Taiwan" with just "Republic of China" and "ROC" even on articles that use Taiwan or a variation. Fcsong should probably be blocked as a completely separate nationalist POV pusher.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for exclusive POV editing. too obvious to need discussion. DGG ( talk ) 16:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Well now Taipei is on a m:wrong version after Fcsong's POV pushing turned it into an edit war.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The guy is back after having gone to an old IP he was using: 64.134.235.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

And again after I posted that he was back on 97.93.110.53 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 2600:1012:B002:A5E0:D45F:5428:3DDE:D1FE (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), with the latter's vandalism to Beijing untouched for nearly 12 hours.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:13, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

User(s) blocked. — Kralizec! (talk) 18:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I have just discovered that one of the previous IPs that was used by this individual got tagged as a possible sockpuppet of the indef-blocked user ProfessorJane (talk · contribs).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

He's back already.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I was going to protect Beijing due to the persistent socking, however Salvidrim! beat me to it.--Jezebel'sPonyo 15:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Ed_Woodward

Hi, can we get the following rev-del'd, dont think we need ip's threatening to kill people (im taking the claims as baseless or would have whipped this over to emergency).

Can we also block the IP User:79.64.105.185 I'd hate to think they might feel like they've got away with it. Amortias (T)(C) 20:06, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP 2 weeks for disruptive editing. I'm not sure that revdel is necessary though.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:20, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe for the idiotic threats the IP made. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:24, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I've just semi-protected the page for two weeks as well. If any admin wants to revdel, I wouldn't object but that is something that I was leaving for discussion. The other actions, I felt comfortable making right away.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:31, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

William L. Uanna

Editor claiming to be the son of subject insists upon adding original research pertaining to Uanna's cause of death (supposed murder, contrary to reliable sourcing which claims heart attack). See . I've raised the issue on the editor's talk page to no avail, and I would request intervention by an administrator or experienced user on this. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:47, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

By "intervention" I was referring to more attention focused on this article, which has been done although the editor in question has not responded. I wasn't requesting any action against this particular editor based upon what has happened to date. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

See also CIC777, who has one contribution here but several related uploads at Commons. --Kinu /_c 23:09, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I think Steven Uanna's viewpoint about William Uanna's cause of death is potentially relevant under NPOV and so I don't have a problem leaving a mention in the article, especially if it can be supported by an external citation to an RS mentioning the viewpoint (not necessarily supporting the murder theory directly). Web search does show that Steven Uanna seems to have been making the claim for a while. He gives some detailed arguments that I currently haven't examined carefully. I'd like to AGF/DONTBITE and treat the editing problem as a newbie not understanding our sourcing requirements, so I'll look over the contribution a little more and try to discuss things with him on his talk page. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I've made some remarks at their talk page which expands on your points and hopefully explains why and directs them to the appropriate extended information they should peruse to understand what they need to do. Blackmane (talk) 23:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I also made a comment there. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 00:19, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

All very helpful, thanks. There's no question the user raised this point in good faith, but the relevant policy was pointed out on multiple occasions without effect, and he edit-warred. Appreciate the extra eyes on the article. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, just a correction to Kinu's reference. The user is CIC7. Blackmane (talk) 08:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I know. My comment was to note this user's other account, which is mentioned here. --Kinu /_c 08:43, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikihounding by Range of IP's

There appears to be a range of IP's that is stalking me: 59.97.32.195 and 59.97.33.91. I'm not sure if they're the same editor, but they seem to be working together to avoid the 3RR rule. In addition, based on this report, it appears that the IP's may have a history of dodgy activity. Can someone please assist? Thank you.CFredkin (talk) 08:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh for god's sake. I'm a regular (if sporadic) editor interested in US politics. I've edited from a bunch of IPs over the years, that I don't remember most of (any reason I should?) but I have never attempted to pretend that I am more than one person, or anything of the kind. Yes, I travel frequently, and when I do I edit from public computers; which is probably why I overlapped with an online troll at some point (as you can see, that report is a few months old). TLDR; show me one policy that I have violated (sure, I hit 3RR just now, but so did you). And I am not the one with 4 ANEW reports in a few days, only one of which I authored......59.97.33.91 (talk) 09:07, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Frankly, the excuse from the IP is weak. The correct answer is to create an account. instead of hiding behind multiple IPs, and edit from any available computer. David J Johnson (talk) 09:27, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I removed the entire paragraph and raised the issue at WP:BLPN#John Kline (politician). There is at least one SPA with an interest in keeping the attack in the article, so it will need watching. Johnuniq (talk) 09:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• CFredkin doesn't come here with clean hands. Their editing of politicians' biographies is tendentious, with a lot of edit warring in the past few days. Speaking for myself, I've only just refrained from blocking them recently, and purely because others were edit warring also (though less egregiously), see theseAN3 sections. But that said, I completely agree with David J Johnson that the sight of an anonymous IP-hopper edit warring is unedifying. 59.97.33.91, anonymous editing is allowed, yes, but when the IPs are highly dynamic and the editing is controversial, it's not respectable. Not all disruption violates some policy. You have no consistent user talkpage, so it's not worth while trying to communicate with you. You're unwarnable and pretty much unblockable. Please see Misplaced Pages:Why create an account?: While we welcome contributions from unregistered editors, logging in under a User Name lets you build trust and respect through a history of good edits, and makes it easier for veteran users to assume good faith, communicate and collaborate. My italics. If there's any more edit warring from you from fluctuating IPs (and I'm not talking about breaching 3RR, necessarily), I'll block your range. This is your only warning; it hardly seems worth while sticking it on one of "your" talkpages. Bishonen | talk 10:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC).

Warning accepted, but I still decline to create an account. Is it "disreputable?" Perhaps; so is having four blocks, and four ANEW reports in a day. I can recognize your problem with warnings and blocks and such; but can you find me actions of mine prior to today that warranted warnings or blocks? Probably not, because until I came across this tendentious character (seriously, he still insists that a particular sentence does not exist in a source) I was scrupulous about reverting, essentially obeying a self-imposed 1RR. I have never breached 3RR (as an individual; I don't keep track of my IPs). And I might as well let you know, blocking a range will not be very helpful; these are public IPs. 59.97.33.91 (talk) 11:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

And I am still amazed at how many "red-line" breaches CFredkin made over the past day, and got away scot-free with all of them; and here I am dragged to the drama board just for following the letter of the law. 59.97.33.91 (talk) 11:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

You're kidding. How am I supposed to know if there are "actions of yours prior to today that warranted warnings or blocks"? That's the whole point. You have no history. Bishonen | talk 11:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC).

• You're right, Mr/Mrs IP; they're being rather disruptive right now. The problem is - you might be just as disruptive, but since we cannot easily review every single edit that you personally have made, we cannot tell. We therefore cannot take you seriously. We therefore are starting to have to assume the worst, instead of assuming the best. You seem to be ok pointing fingers, but we cannot verify how clean your hands are, and that's simply reducing your argument, unfortunately. So yes, you're welcome to edit without an account - but very soon, the threshold for action against you will become lower, as we'll have to assume a not-so-pleasant history. the panda ɛˢˡ” 12:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• There have been two or three redlink users edit-warring with Fredkin since the start of August, including the original posting of the contentious material citing Bill Maher. There's pretty obviously an agenda being pushed. (And how any rep could be "worse" than Bachmann is hard to imagine, but that's a side issue.) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:03, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I am unclear as to the precise tools that Check Users have, but I was under the impression that negative evidence (ie confirming unrelated) was easy to come by (especially when, as I suspect, we are currently in different countries). I have never edited with an account; but I guess you only have my word for that. Regardless, I'm not sure where this thread is going. I will promise (of course) to abide by policy, which IMO I have done all along. I was perhaps a little carried away today, but if any of you had ever tried to handle content disputes with CFredkin, I think you would sympathize. They violated 3RR twice in a day, and got away, both times, even with a block log like theirs. I wish to maintain my anonymity as far as I can, and I will not get an account. Can this thread be closed now? 59.97.33.91 (talk) 14:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Re: CheckUser, see . --92.4.168.193 (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

It's rather disingenuous to say that the IP is pushing an agenda without noting that the reporting party is also pushing an agenda. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:31, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• @EatsShootsAndLeaves, Bishonen, and David J Johnson: Folks - editing as an IP is not a crime here - in fact, it's what we were founded on. Let's not forget that. We can review the IP's contributions here by assuming them mostly edit in this range.--v/r - TP 17:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

No-one has said it's a crime. Just a little dishonest to keep editing under different IP's. Far better to create an account, so everyone knows the contributions are from the same person. Regards, David J Johnson (talk) 18:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

That's not a realistic answer. The IP is obviously dynamic and the user has no control over the IP they use. They could be on dial up, their ISP could have a short reservation time for IPs, or a host of other reasons their IP is changing without their control. Accusing them of being dishonest over something that is not within their control is really not appropriate at all. The IP originates in India, you cannot hold them to the standards you'd expect from an American or British ISP.--v/r - TP 18:19, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

They DO have control over owning up to their past. If they can't be bothered to reveal their "trail", then there's no reason anyone should be bothered to listen to their complaints. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Where is that written in policy? Do you keep track of your home IPs? Where does it say in policy that we treat IPs as any less of a person if they do not keep a running list of their edits? You have the range contribs right there - review them. Those are the tools we have available. Faking ignorance for the sake of biting an IP is dishonest of us and we can do better. Here is the tool. All arguments about 'not knowing', 'avoiding scrutiny', and 'edit trail' are rendered null by the existence of this link.--v/r - TP 22:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

My IP seldom changes, but I don't edit from my IP anyway. If an IP-hopper expects to be treated with good faith, he needs to demonstrate some. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:43, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

They are not an "IP-hopper". They are an "I-have-no-control-over-my-ip-er". This is essentially systematic nationalistic discrimination - not intentional on anyone's part. But our system is designed to be suspicious of changing IP addresses and that suspicion is based on ISPs in 1st world countries which can be depended on to be fairly regular. This IP lives in a 3rd world country and doesn't not benefit from that kind of system. We cannot judge an IP from a 3rd world country the same as one from a 1st world country.--v/r - TP 01:43, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

User Songfans repeatedly blanking content related to Song Zuying's alleged affair with Jiang Zemin

User:Songfans has repeatedly blanked the section covering Song Zuying's alleged affair with Jiang Zemin over the course of several months, despite consensus having been reached in a BLP review on what was acceptable to say about it (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive198#Song_Zuying ). They have never engaged in discussion, despite having been invited to on multiple occasions and do not give the reason for their repeated section-blanking. The same pattern of editing is seen from the same editor over at CN-wiki. This pattern of editing has become tiresome in the extreme, with multiple editors having to take time to revert the unexplained section-blanking. FOARP (talk) 12:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

It's understandable. That section is still a BLP-dodgy bit of reported tabloid rumours. The editor in question has tried to remove it at a rate of twice a month which is hardly a 3RR problem. The "consensus" on the BLP noticeboard that you point to is that the material probably shouldn't be included, that it was "trash" etc. After consideration of the whole "consensus" you supplied and not just my own contribution, I'm going to blank that section myself now until someone proposes on the talk page how it can be rewritten in a way that deals with User:Herostratus and User:Sean.hoyland's reasonable BLP-based objections.__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I re-opened a discussion on the BLP noticeboard so that any concerns about BLP can be reviewed by uninvolved editors.__ E L A Q U E A T E 15:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Some assistance required over at TfD

I've been reluctant to post anything here, since I consider myself capable of taking care of myself, but the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2014_August_13#Template:Lang-en-GB has become somewhat toxic.

I expressed an opinion that this group of templates didn't seem necessary, and should be deleted as they are simply the sort of thing that turns off novice users. I don't consider this to be a controversial statement (although User:Peter coxhead helpfully explained later that the templates are helpful), or something that I ought to have known would give offense. I'm entitled to the opinion, others are entitled to disagree. Nonetheless, User:SMcCandlish has unleashed a steady stream of fairly aggressive accusations and insults against me. Among other things, he described my position in his edit summary as "melodramatic noise" and accused me of abuse and creating "psychodramas" (see this edit). He then called my opinion "position-pushing drama" and described me as being on a high horse (this edit), and he subsequently mocked my refusal to engage with him. Most baffling (and what prompted this request), he is now saying that I am "patent abus" the TfD process by "attacking" the templates as some sort of a "trial balloon, for larger, more general anti-"technocracy" campaign". I don't know what he is talking about. I have no campaign in mind. In the years I have been on Misplaced Pages, I could count the number of times I have participated in TfD discussions on one hand. It's not an arena where I participate, let alone launch trial balloons and campaigns.

SMcCandlish has been similarly aggressive towards other users who have supported deletion of the templates.

I don't believe that I have ever encountered SMcCandlish before, so it's not as if we have a history, and I certainly do not have any history at TfD. I should be able to express an opinion, and while SMcCandlish can strongly disagree if he so chooses, this level of abuse and impugning of my motives would seem to be inappropriate.

I am also receptive to any comments about my own behaviour. Perhaps, when I refused to engage, I ought not to have asked him to review WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY. Perhaps I was poking the bear, so to speak. I don't know. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you requesting some sort of admin action at this noticeboard? I see two editors who were both being uncivil, but nothing that warrants a block or a topic-ban. Yes, you were being confrontational (poking the bear). Robert McClenon (talk) 15:12, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Mostly just asking an admin or experienced user to put a stop to the behaviour. I have no interest in blocking or banning. If you think I brought it on myself, then okay. Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks like you're not the only person he's speaking with less than civilly in that discussion. He's being, to say the least, incivil and condescending to anyone that disagrees. I'd suggest an admin have a word with him. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 17:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• I'm going to quote SMcCandlish who outlines it perfectly: "Instead of claiming aggrievement at being challenged on something, why not actually respond substantively to the challenge". Challenging your opinion is not being uncivil. Accusing someone of being uncivil for challenging your opinion is.--v/r - TP 18:16, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, T, I don't mind someone challenging my opinion (as is quite evident in this discussion when User:Peter coxhead explained that I misconceived the benefit of the template). Describing my opinion as melodramatic noise, and accusing me of abuse, psychodrama, and of having ulterior motives, is not "challenging my opinion". I am happy to respond substantively to people who question my opinion, even forcefully, but most of SMcCandlish's comments to me were not substantive. And I don't think any editor should be taken to task for not attempting to address any substantive points with SMcCandlish when faced with that torrent of abuse. Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Could you possibly be any more hyperbolic, Skeezix1000? "Torrent of abuse"? Please. I didn't "accuse" you of any ulterior motives, and making observations about misuing TfD to advance general "templates are a technocracy" WP:SOAPBOX advocacy or engaging in WP:DRAMA tactics, as you continue to do right here, aren't "accusations" either, but simply obseravations of actions and how they related to standard operating procedure around here. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I have to disagree. He's not just acting incivil to Skeezix1000, he's also acting that way to SweetNightmares, Resolute (a sysop) and George Ho. He really needs to calm down in that discussion. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 18:43, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll address most of this below. SweetNightmares and George Ho are involved in a disagreement with me, and Ho at least admits he also needs to cool off about it (while simultaneously escalating...). Having a discussion with Resolute about the definition of a word isn't "acting incivil", and Resolute being an admin doesn't magically mean everyone has to agree with that editor on everything.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Statement of SMcCandlish: The complainant, Skeezix1000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has unclean hands in this:

Furthermore, I'm not being "incivil and condescending to anyone that disagrees" (proof: ), I'm being critical of WP:FAITACCOMPLI actions to delete all the templates' uses in situ to make them seem unused, TfD arguments not grounded in policy, and the incivility of others.

Now comes a concerted, disruptive form of WP:AGF/WP:CIVIL/WP:NPA-violative WP:CANVASSING, in which George Ho (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is campaigning all participants at the TfDs in question to refuse to respond to me: I ask administrative intervention to revert this and to prevent this editor from continuing to do this. (User:Joy seems like the most appropriate, having warned this editor about behavior relating to these templates already.)

I could go on, but this is enough evidence of what's happening over there, and I don't want to be thought of as posting a "text wall". Per the WP:DUCK and WP:SPADE analyses, I have to observe that this looks to be a WP:FACTION, a trio of editors all convinced that templates they don't understand or don't like, even all templates in general, are part of a Borg-like technocracy lording it over WP. All three of them used "technocrat", "technocratic" or "technocracy" in this debate, reiterate each others' arguments, and are colluding (including making more personal attacks on me, which perhaps they think are immune because they avoid naming me explicitly.

 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry Skeezix, but you raised a pretty questionable non-sequitur with your "No wonder Misplaced Pages is having trouble keeping and attracting editors" comment, and SMcCandlish, despite his flaws, one of which is a lack of tact in calling out your flawed arguments, was completely within his rights to demand evidence for this spurious claim. Both you and Nightmare were in the wrong long before SMcCandlish came close to any sort of boundary, and the only actual personal attack was made by George Ho - "The more we ignore you, techno-nerd, the better". I'm actually quite disappointed; George knows better than to call people names. VanIsaac_WS 23:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I stroke the insult in that page. Per WP:NPA, you can strike whatever you think is a personal insult and then cite that policy. I should not have done insults. Despite striking and erasing them, I could be blocked for this. Well, we all involved parties were guilty of attacking each other, and I was trying to cool down. However, I shouldn't have made SMcCandlish a sole culprit. I was too cowardly to admit that others were also to blame (unless I'm proven wrong). I failed to advise civility and tell ourselves to admit responsibility at the same time. However, I stand by my nominations, and I cannot withdraw at this time... because of mixed votes and discussion (sans heat-up comments). Look, I knew how templates work, but my level of knowledge isn't very good; it's average (or a little above). And I'm a techno-amateur; period. As for the other non-English "lang" templates, how was I canvassing? If I was canvassing against templates, tell me an advice to follow. --George Ho (talk) 00:50, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm certainly not asking that anyone be blocked. No one should be blocked for an off-the-cuff intemperate remark (and I even have a crew of "negative followers" who habitually personally attack me, in multiple forums, yet I don't seek them being blocked, either, or even bother bringing them to ANI or AE about it; WP is far too litigious as it is, and noticeboards are better used for content-related (WP:V, WP:NPOV, etc.) problem resolution, not putting balm on bruised egos). No one has asked George Ho to withdraw any TfD nominations, and doing so at this point would be out-of-process, as they already have substantial pro and con comments. I would like to see removal of George Ho's canvassing, of participants in these TfDs to ignore me personally, to be removed; they amount to a campaign to get everyone to only pay heed to him and his allies against these templates, as well as being personal denigration of my input. I think I'd be within WP:NPA to remove them myself, but I'd rather see Ho self-revert, or have it done administratively, to avoid someone being WP:POINTy and simply reverting their removal (I've already had one Ho's friends on this issue revert even the simplest refactoring of cross-references, so revertwarring is not an idle concern). No one has suggested any other form of canvassing has happened, including at other, non-English lang-xx templates (I earlier did observe that Ho had been warned by an admin about disruptive ultimatum behavior with regard to one of them, and that his goals in that debate reflect a general antagonism toward all the {{lang-xx-YY}} templates, but that's nothing to do with the canvassing-against-one's-opposition problem at these particular TfDs).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  01:29, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

George Ho struck the other, canvassy posts at issue. I also moderated the tone of several of my posts there. Everyone will hopefully be happy now. I also clarfied that my diffing (which I did over there as well as here) isn't meant to pick on George, but to identify just how far-flung this octopus of a discussion is and make it clear that the TfDs are just part of something large that needs to be addressed more broadly.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  04:44, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

PS: On closer review, I think there actually is a canvassing problem here, of the WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:PARENT sort (not to direct people to these TfDs; rather the TfDs are the latest in his series of "how many forums can I bring this up in at once and hope I get an answer I like?" shotgun approach. Ho has raised some variant of his position against language variant templates (in German, English, etc.) in at least all of the following places, and I haven't looked very hard:

• Five separate TfDs at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 August 13 (obviously)
• Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not#"Misplaced Pages is not a technocracy"? (as an example of his and SweetNighmares's broader campaign against templates more generally)
• Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Using "lang-x" template or simple wikilinking and formatting
• Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Template:lang-de/sandbox
• Template talk:Lang-de#template:lang-de-AT

I'm simply going to cross-reference these discussions with links between them. Ho should be admonished not to do this sort of thing (we should centralize discussions, not fragment them in hopes of getting a specific result from one of them, or just out of carelessness), but that's probably enough.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  02:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I think everyone involved needs to cool off. I'm a big fan of templates, but even I can't manage to get myself worked up over this drama. George should stick to one place where he airs his views on templates, and SMcC should avoid badgering George. Then we can all go back to arguing about Russavia. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:47, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Assistance requested at Fringe Theories Noticeboard

Assistance from one or more Admins and any experienced editors is requested with issues related to this discussion at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard (yes there is such a thing). Short synopsis; we have an editor who has created around 160 articles, and almost all of the ones we have looked at so far have major problems. We over at the tin foil hat noticeboard are sending out an SOS. Any help is greatly appreciated. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:06, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Propose a Topic-Ban on New Articles in Article Space

I propose that this editor be topic-banned from creating new articles in article space (rather than via the AFC review process), since he or she is cluttering article space with a large number of articles that need deleting. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Holy crap batman--v/r - TP 17:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support The combination of refusal to communicate with other editors, fringe topics (need less on here, not more) and the obvious vast amounts of original research. Their intent does not seem to be malicious, but they've chosen the wrong platform. All this belongs in their blog. §FreeRangeFrog 17:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support seems pretty obvious that these articles need to go through AfC and that the user isn't willing to do that without some strong handed encouragement. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment/Question How will this go any better at WP:AFC? Some of the articles appear to me, a non expert in Hindu material, to be potentially direct translations form a worthy book or set of texts. I am wondering whether it might not be 'our' problem that 'we' cannot understand them easily as submissions in clearer English. A comment from an experienced, perhaps immersed, editor would be relevant to this discussion before moving to a draconian apparent remedy. For example, if they be direct translations or quotations from learned texts then we should, surely, treat them in an identical manner to other such texts an the editor should be granted the same courtesies as are extended to editors creating articles in other faiths/disciplines.

This material is arcane, certainly, but is it proper or improper that it is in Misplaced Pages as articles? If proper then there is no issue save for our understanding the material. If improper then remedies are already available to you, ranging from deletion through to blocking the editor. Fiddle Faddle 18:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

"is it proper or improper that it is in Misplaced Pages as articles?" Yes, in the way it is written. It presents material from Hindu astrology as uncontested fact. We don't do that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

@Timtrent: A host of reasons: 1) AFC space isn't indexed by search engines, 2) AFCs arn't searched by our search bar without going to more advanced options, 3) AFCs can be deleted easier by CSD guidelines, 4) Editors in AFC space review it before the first 2 things limitations get removed, 5) AFC has a giant "THIS IS A DRAFT" banner.--v/r - TP 18:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

If it is not proper for the articles to be here, and I suspected it was not for the reasons stated by AndyTheGrump, might the correct route not be a bulk AfD? If it is not proper then AFC is not the place for them either, surely? I come back to my thoughts that one does not need extraordinary measures to deal with this. I have never heard of a topic ban against creation of new mainspace articles and I feel intellectually against it for a great many reasons. Fiddle Faddle 18:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I am cementing and formalising my opinion as a firm Oppose. I have made a asmall edit to my original text, adding the word "clearer" as a modifier for "English"Fiddle Faddle 18:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Timtrent (Fiddlefaddle). Look at this revision of Rasasvada, for example, which Aditya soni had created, and nobody else had edited it except one editor adding a single cleanup tag. It's quite difficult to read and understand, but that's because I'm completely unfamiliar with Indian philosophy; the article appears to have solid sources, and the difficult-to-understand comes partly from the author's way of writing, which makes me suspect that the author isn't fluent in English. As a result, I can form only two conclusions: either it's a decent article on a specialised topic, warranting only some wording cleanup, or its problems are profound enough that only a specialist can understand them. Neither one warrants the ban that's proposed here: if it's a decent article, we shouldn't sanction the guy, and if a specialist is required, the article will sail straight through AFC because people over there aren't specialists in Indian philosophy — AFC is good for filtering problems that anyone can understand, not things like this. Either levy no sanctions at all, or prohibit creation through AFC as well; if the nominator were to remove the AFC creation option, I would be neutral. Nyttend (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as much too broad. If one were to prepend "For the large majority of Hindus" to most of these articles they would be indistinguishable to me from Holy Spirit (Christianity) which begins: "For the large majority of Christians" and then is entirely based on WP:INUNIVERSE sources. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 19:00, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support I do not think the editor in question is being malicious here. But whether intentionally or not, the serious problems with so many of these articles is creating an enormous amount of work for everyone else. The FTN Board is not exactly one of the more well traveled ones and we just don't have enough regulars to deal with well over a hundred suspect articles. (Sometimes we are stretched to handle even normal posts and issues that pop up.) Beyond which the editor's refusal to engage with the community and take some advice on board or show some regard for standards and consensus makes it almost impossible not to see more problems down the road without the new article creation ban. In short, I support the ban because I believe that without it we are going to continue to see the creation of questionable articles on a scale that will further severely tax the limited resources of the community to fix or delete. I am still trying to come up with a sane way of dealing with 160 articles that need to be checked and possibly deleted or mass migrated somewhere. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Changing position to Oppose based on compelling arguments from several editors, as well as closer examination of the editor's record by Salimfadhley, whose judgment I trust, and who concluded the issues are likely not as widespread or serious as initially thought. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:41, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Mixed view here. This seems like good content and it seems clear that the user knows a lot about Hindu astrology. The real problem here is that the articles themselves are badly written. Readers of WP should not have to be experts in Hindu astrology to get through even a single paragraph, but that's kind of the issue we have here. I think this user's material and knowledge are valuable but the articles he is making should spend some time in userspace being edited a bit. It doesn't have to be perfect by any means, but it has to at least look like it was written in English. Would anyone be available to help mentor or copy-edit this content? I can do some work with the grammar myself but I would like someone (perhaps from Wikiproject Mythology, Wikiproject Hinduism, or Wikiproject Astrology) to help out since they might have familiarity with the information and can offer more direct constructive criticism. Alicb (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support - A ban from creating new articles related to this topic might give this editor an opportunity to improve the existing articles to a point where they meet the WP:NFRINGE standard. I would prefer this than to have to manually review the hundreds of articles on this subject. My greater concern is that this editor feels that this subject (Hindu Astrology) is somehow exempt from the normal rules that govern articles about religious topics in Misplaced Pages. As a result we have over a hundred pages most of which would never have got past AFC review, this is a prime example . The comment about Einstein in the lede is an automatic 5 on the Crackpot Index. Let's not allow articles about Hinduism to be of lower quality than articles about other religions. If editors were writing such blatant gobbledygook about Christianity or Judaism I think we'd be quick to delete it. I think we need to be consistent in our standards. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Why do you think this would get stopped at AFC? It appears to have decent sourcing, and to someone unfamiliar with the subject, the only problem is the comparatively poor English. Most people at AFC are totally ignorant of Hinduism and other Indian philosophy (not complaining; I am too), so if an article's not badly sourced, they have no reason to object to it. Nyttend (talk) 02:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support, definitely. Miniapolis 23:09, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I have been asked to participate in this discussion but I do not know where to begin from.

I started my exercise of creating new pages by first locating the most important and relevant topics that had not been earlier dealt with by any contributor, and having done that one by one I took up those topics, worked on them and created the pages on Indian philosophy and Hindu astrology, the subjects that are known to me. Nowhere have I expressed my own thoughts or done original research; I have based all information included therein as has been available to me online and in the texts that are in my possession which texts also find an online mention. I never thought my well-intentioned efforts would one day cause the kind of problem they have. As an ardent follower of Indian philosophy I was merely obeying the Vedic instruction that if given the opportunity I should unhesitatingly pass on to others, who are willing, all that I have studied and learnt. Knowledge is the light that reveals the true nature of things and removes ignorance; knowledge purifies the mind, that mind which involves all human beings in duality to suffer the pangs of pleasure and pain. It seems I have failed in this task for I have not been able to convey properly.

Friends, I am not a preacher and I am also not a teacher set in the mold of Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, Ramana, Varahamihira, Vaidyanatha or Kalidasa. I am an ordinary human being. Philosophy and astrology are difficult subjects to handle. This I know. They are all the more difficult for those who do not know these subjects. Where to begin from I simply do not know. It was long ago said – "they do not know who know, those who do not know, know" - which paradoxical situation will always remain due to the limitations affecting our thoughts and acts.

It has been nice meeting you all.Aditya soni (talk) 02:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to comment here. I think that you are making a lot of useful contributions of information that is badly needed on Misplaced Pages. There are a few concerns with language that I think we can address but as long as you provide the sources for the information that you provide (either a link to a website or the names/page numbers of print texts) then that should be good enough for other editors to work on. It may be time to call on the users at Wikiproject Hinduism to take a hand in working on these articles. Alicb (talk) 03:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear Alicb, no information in my 160 odd articles is without a direct reference to the source. I have dutifully provided the relevant links to the websites, given the names of the books, their authors and page numbers. I have neither promoted myself nor anyone else. There is no problem with the language either, because as far as is possible I have used the same words and expression that has been used by the authors of those very books and articles. Why should there be a problem in accessing those sources, I fail to understand. Moreover, there is already talk of difficulty in handling 100 odd intended AFDs pertaining to the pages I have created, doubt has also been raised about the ability of the editors who had reviewed those pages, and to top it all, my efforts have been termed as utter non-sense and a hoax and therefore already stand summarily dismissed. Then, I do not understand why so much time and effort is now being wasted just to prove my efforts are a bunch of trash. Even if all 160 pages are deleted I stand to lose nothing at all since I have already gained a great deal by way of revision of my knowledge while writing these pages, which revision has served as my Upasana (contemplation). And I am sure some readers must have also gained and improved their knowledge. Through your agency I request for the charade that is being presently played out to end, it is sickening to say the least. Already some very harsh and bad words have been used belittling my efforts, the kind of words I never use; that is enough, there should not be any more of it. There should not be any further delay in deleting my 160 odd articles. I hope you will speak on my behalf and have all 160 pages created by me deleted soon. After the requested deletion is done I shall quit Misplaced Pages and enjoy my liberation. Nice knowing you.Aditya soni (talk) 05:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose for now per Fiddle Faddle/Tim.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Fiddle Faddle/Tim. As a side note, talking about tin foil hats in this context should be blockable. --John (talk) 06:13, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see any substantial problem here. It looks like Aditya soni is doing a pretty good job with the sources though a little more explanatory detail in some of the articles would be helpful. --I am One of Many (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

super strong support; unless those "opposing" actually pull their fingers out and hold this editor's hand through the process. However, I feel Misplaced Pages requires WP:COMPETENCE, and it requires its competent editors to be editing competently rather than holding the hands of someone who cannot write a coherent sentence in the forlorn hope that something might be salvageable from the inevitable mess. Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Barney, the editor seems to me to have written some very coherent sentences, right here, in this thread. Better, grammatically, than some of the comments from native English speakers on this page, and certainly better than I could do in a language that may not be native to me. Sure, there are problems with English in some of the articles - it's complex content, with difficult translation issues, I'm sure, and it seems it may need someone to help him work through those issues (if he's still willing). It's probably important that he stops adding new articles until that can be worked through, to keep things manageable. Seems we may need someone who is familiar with the subject matter, and that's obviously not you or me. Maybe nobody will come forward to do that. If they do, I suggest it's not up to you or me to tell them how they should volunteer their time. Speaking of which - I thank Aditya soni for the substantial time he has so far donated in an attempt to create and share this content, and I hope we can help clear up any issues. Begoon  15:38, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sort of "ban" at this stage, for clarity, per my comments above, in case anyone is "!counting". (Sad reflection on us, in my very humble opinion, that we leap straight into a "ban" vote after one line of non discussion, then try to hold the discussion we should have already had within the !vote. I hope I'm never subjected to that, and I suspect we all hope that for ourselves.) Begoon  16:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment, Just to clarify - nobody is proposing a 'permaban'. Nobody is proposing to wholesale delete 160 articles which are obviously the result of hard work and research. Some of us are asking this editor to cool it, and respect the norms of notability and sourcing on Misplaced Pages. I note that at least four of Aditya soni's recently created articles on Hindu Astrology are all subject to AFCs for broadly the same set of reasons: Incomprehensible articles on ultra-niche that are loaded with WP:OR and rely on unreliable occult/esoteric sources. This editor has not yet pledged to do anything differently even in light of the considerable attention criticism in AFD discussions. --Salimfadhley (talk) 14:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Observation: Today I was glad to note that an esteemed editor had approached one page i.e.Rasasvada, with the intention of improving it. But just see what he has done. He has deleted the entire section – "Obstacles to Samadhi and their removal", in which part I have cited Sanskrit passages from Vedantasara that provide definition of the term – "Rasasvada" – in the context of Advaita Vedanta and are the basic reason as to why I decided to create this page. The editor in good faith has extracted the very heart from the body of this essay and killed it. The reason he gives is that the passage is original research based on ancient source. Three drawbacks are evident – 1) the editor does not know Sanskrit language, 2) he does not know who Sadananda was, and 3) he has never read the work of Sadananda titled Vedantasara belonging to mid-15th century, which systemizes Sankara’s Advaita philosophy. Since then, this work has been translated and commented upon by many learned savants. I chose to cite from the translation and commentary by Swami Nikhilananda which was first published in 1931 and which translation and commentary is available online, the reprint I possess is of a recent date. I have conducted no original research.Aditya soni (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

UserAditya soni, I believe that you are acting in good faith, hence any bans or threats of bans may be unwarranted in your case. I have reviewed your older articles and found some of your work on Hinduism and Buddhism in general to be of good quality and potentially useful. I remain concerned about recently created articles such as Trikasthanas (astrology) which as I have previously stated are incomprehensible and fail to articulate any kind of notability according to Misplaced Pages's standards. None of the sources I was able to verify appear to be particularly important or reliable. None of the sources I could verify seem to deal with the subject matter in any significant depth. The reason I am pointing this out is not to criticize your scholarship, but to encourage you to apply your considerable intellect to an appreciation of Misplaced Pages's rules. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• support I have mixed feelings about this, but I think in the end something has to be done about in the form of review and guidance. To some degree my issues with the Hindu terminology articles can be ascribed to my lack of familiarity with the material, but I also get the impression that a lot of what I'm reading is slight paraphrasing of near-to-primary source material. It's rather as if our articles on Judaica were constructed from reworded passages of the gemara. It's not an appropriate approach to a general interest encyclopedia. The astrology articles are worse, bordering on incoherency. I've said over and over again that we need people who know the material to write these Indian articles, but the articles need to be actually readable too. Mangoe (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by single-purpose account

User: Parisking147 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a single-purpose account that is continually removing sourced details from the article Stedman Pearson. The account first became active in June 2014, and since then has removed the same details from the article at least ten times for no valid reason (details are well sourced and there is no BLP issue as per WP:WELLKNOWN). Several editors have restored the details only for Parisking147 to remove it again. There's no actual 3RR (yet) but the account has removed the same section five times in the past week alone. I was about to leave a warning message on their talk page but it seems they have already had four warnings in the past week. An obvious refusal to engage in discussion or abide by rules suggests the account should be blocked. Soultruck (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week. Left a comment on their talk page inviting them to communicate their concerns, although the material they've been removing seems to be by all measures appropriate. §FreeRangeFrog 17:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Serial block-evading, disruptive user on a spree

Can someone please block 90.201.155.179 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for more than 31 hours? He's on a massive edit war spree, and he's spreading his disruptive editing out to dozens of articles. He's already blocked as 2.220.251.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and he has a long history of evading blocks. He has been previously discussed in this community ban proposal, which resulted in a decision to file a long-term abuse case, which has not yet been posted. The discussion for that is ongoing at User talk:AddWittyNameHere#Martial arts vandal back again?. Previous reports to WP:AIV after level-4 warnings have resulted in short blocks which do nothing to stop his continuing disruption. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Update: vandal has been blocked. I count over 80 articles in which this editor is currently engaged in edit wars, and that doesn't even count the vandalism that he dabbles in. There are a few people watching these articles, but we could use more eyes, especially from admins. This user has been disrupting martial-arts related pages for years now, and it's a pain to see him warned or lightly reprimanded when it's obvious that he's not going to stop. I'll try to see that the LTA case is filed soon. As an aside, is there a better place than AIV to report this user? Not all of his edits are vandalism, and many consist of pointless disruption, such as genre warring. ANEW seems poorly equipped to deal with this kind of widescale disruption. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

After looking through the contributions and seeing the mass disruption - I'd support a block of at least one year. Dusti 02:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that wouldn't really accomplish anything more than blocking for a week, as the vandal's dynamic IP address changes too often. Very short blocks (24 to 31 hours) don't really stop this user, but a week long block is usually enough to give us a temporary breather. I think one of the problems is that we don't have a long-term abuse report yet, but AddWittyNameHere is working on that. I don't know how to concisely summarize such widescale disruption (80 articles in one day) without overwhelming the admins with potentially irrelevant information. It seems like maybe I've been erring on the "too concise" side. Advice would be helpful. I guess I could post a brief LTA report myself while we wait for AWNH's more in-depth report. Would this be helpful to the admins? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I strongly apologize for the time it's taking me to create the full, in-depth report. Unfortunately, with frequently targeted articles ranging over a hundred and (to the best of my knowledge) at LEAST thirty different IP-addresses that have been in use by the editor, AND information from an old SPI archive and multiple ANI threads, as well as several types of problematic behaviour by this serial vandal that is not obviously problematic at first glance and may even look benign (though their current behaviour of revert-sprees is of course a bit more recognizable) it's a lot of work to get the proper documentation done. Every time I think I have everything that matters, I stumble upon yet new IPs in ranges I had not yet discovered, or a whole new cluster of articles, or slightly different behaviour that still warrants a description, etc. Add to that the difficulty of formatting a LTA report for a non-named user, the lack of proper tagging of the many IPs that have been used by him (many do not even have a clue in their block-log that it's him) meaning everything has to be double-checked and the sheer mass of edits involved... then there are a few cases that may or may not be him, because the typical edits are there but there are strong differences with his normal MO... And that's ignoring real life interference by means of health issues and the fact that I do spend time on Misplaced Pages doing other things than chasing this bugger down about four years of history on a hundred pages. Let's put it this way: collecting all information, selecting what is important and what is not, and noting it all down in a way understandable for those not familiar with him, has so far taken roughly eighty hours of time. @NinjaRobotPirate: Please go ahead and post a shortened version. I can't even give proper updates on how long it will take me to get everything done because of the sheer mass of edits, IPs and articles involved, and I'm too much of a perfectionist to upload a partial LTA report myself. (But maybe it'll be easier for me to add the stuff I already have when there already is a partial report in place anyway? We'll see. In any case, it won't hurt to have something to refer to) AddWittyNameHere (talk) 14:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Talkpage violations at Talk:Historicity of Jesus

No way you want to hear more about problems at Talk:Historicity of Jesus. But, I see no other good alternative.

John Carter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is the person I'm having difficulty with.

Background:

1. John Carter has posted some oblique "warning" messages to me at Talk:Historicity of Jesus-- directed at "a certain obvious POV pusher," and "a rather single-minded POV pusher." diff1diff2 Frankly, I find these to be creepy - as if he's trying to intimidate me.
2. John Carter started an ANI a few days ago, accusing me of “tendentious POV pushing at Historicity of Jesus. He provided only one diff – to a comment totally unrelated to me, and provided no explanation of his claim. After I pointed this out, the ANI was closed, as I'd done nothing blockable. (The ANI is long and stupid. Please don't feel like you need to read it all.) diff to ANI
3. On my talk page, I asked John Carter (several times) what POV he thought I was pushing, since he never said. He doesn't seem to want to tell me, though he does go on at length about my personal failings. (You don't really want to read all this either, but I provide it to show that I'm trying to stay on topic, and am met with hostility.) diff to talk page about ANI
4. John Carter was desysopped several years ago, with the reasons listed pretty much corresponding to his recent behavior.

Current issue:

1. John Carter deleted one of my Talk:Historicity of Jesus comments, without my consent. diff to first deletion
2. When I reverted the delete, and pointed out that he knew better than to delete other users' comments, he deleted it again. diff to second deletion
3. At this point, I consider it an edit war, of sorts (if Talk pages can have those.) If I reverted again, so would he.
4. He posted this “final warning” to my talk page. diff to user talk page warning
5. He added this warning to ], misrepresenting the talkpage guidelines. diff to talk page warning

Looking at WP:TALKNO, John Carter has:

• Made ad hominem attacks against me,
• Threatened me,
• Misrepresented my comments,
• Deleted my comments,
• Misrepresented WP policy and guidelines, and
• Presented himself as if he has some authority – possibly as an admin.

Administrative action requested:

• I'm bringing this to ANI, as I don't think any other dispute resolution will be effective.
• I'm requesting a short article ban for Historicity of Jesus and Talk:Historicity of Jesus

Fearofreprisal (talk) 23:32, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• The deleted comment in question is clearly uncivil sniping, and while I would not personally have considered it severe enough to pull from a talk page, you should not have reverted its removal. Nothing to see here. --erachima talk 23:43, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • It was also restored under the hatnote which he didn't mention. A review of his recent history on the visible article talk page and his own user talk page would indicate warnings are called for. John Carter (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Forgetting the obviously snippy comments, what POV is he pushing on the talk page? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

He has been among other things arguing that nominal Christians and Muslims are incapable of approaching the historicity of Jesus objectively, but that others who have more often than not either rejected some of the Western Christian social morays are, which is at best a dubious assertion considering the psychology of conversion, or that adherents of faiths which would regard the Christian incarnation as basically heretical have no similar biases. Having myself studied religion, I can say everyone in class were much more "nominal" believers than society as a whole, and might like him to meet some of the monks and priests I've met who have in their 40s or 50s acknowledged becoming agnostics or atheists but stay for retirement benefits and their religious friends. John Carter (talk) 00:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

That's not just a POV-push, it's a violation of "no original research". He's betraying his own biases to draw such a conclusion. He has no evidence to support such a broad-brush claim. Deja vu. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Is that based on a thorough examination, or just on taking someone's characterisation of their adversary at face value? Formerip (talk) 00:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

As with the debate a few days ago, he's claiming that a Christian or a Muslim cannot objectively write about the historicity of Jesus. He's got no evidence to support that claim, it's strictly his personal opinion. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:47, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

(e-c)It's something that has some support in some circles so its probably more POV than OR. And I forgot to mention the 2 nuns and several non–Catholic agnostic/atheist nominally Christian ministers I've met as well. It was an an arranged meeting of the local "qualifiers" if anyone's curious. I've myself never been a religious and I was there basically as an outsider. John Carter (talk) 00:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

That highlights one of many core issues in this discussion. Precisely what IS a Christian? Another is the matter of what Historicity of Jesus is really about, whether Jesus existed, or whether there is any "scientific" evidence that he existed. HiLo48 (talk) 00:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

User:John Carter is completely misrepresenting my position, and my actions. The diffs don't lie:

Beyond this, POV, or what is a Christian, or any of this content related stuff is not an issue in this ANI. The only thing that is at issue is User:John Carter's hostility.Fearofreprisal (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

There is also this diff which you recently removed from your user talk page with the problematic "Off–topic comments" section in which Huon talks about your other recent micsconduct on the same talk page and your other problematic recent conduct still on the talk page. WP:BOOMERANG indicates that much as you apparently think otherwise your behavior is open to review as well.John Carter (talk) 01:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with John Carter. Let's stick to his hostility: He's been accusing me of POV pushing, both in the article talk page diff1diff2, and in another ANI diff to ANI, and he's provided no evidence to substantiate it. Zippo. Fearofreprisal (talk) 01:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Because you'd lose. And you have demonstrated so much arrogance and self–righteousness that Huon had to call you on it before and it very clearly still hasn't apparently gotten through to you yet. John Carter (talk) 01:41, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

As I said in the last discussion, this article might benefit from a page move to Academic history of Jesus or something of that matter to determinitively distinguish the difference between religious/faith-based history and scholarly/scientific history.--v/r - TP 01:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll send you a talk page message regarding the article. I'd really like to keep this ANI focused on John Carter's hostility towards me, as it's really getting in the way of improving the article. (He even said that my suggesting the scope of the article should be "the historicity of Jesus" was POV pushing!) Fearofreprisal (talk) 02:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the editor conduct deserves a reality check, and the language that is being used, even in this ANI post is not acceptable. And you have demonstrated so much arrogance and self–righteousness... It's ridiculous. In short, you give the impression of being a newbie with a profound ego but little real knowledge of the topic and less knowledge or awareness of wikipedia policies and guidelines. Please make an effort to read WP:TPG and try to realize that, despite your own obvious conviction of your personal genius... is wholeheartedly unacceptable and uncivil language while not exactly swearing and not exactly 'confrontorary' language, is anything but civil. Indeed, comments like We have talk page guidelines for a reason whether you are capable of understanding them or not. If you can't understand that please read WP:CIR which is implying that the user is not competent enough to understand policy or guidelines. unless you are a professional in the field, however high your opinion of yourself might be, the authors there probably know more about the subject and are better sources for our content than yourself and your OR speculations regarding their possible is also in my view is unacceptable. This kind of language is what is ambiguously dealt with on noticeboards, and what needs to be policed and enforced more. I advocate that John is put on warning for these comments and should be reminded that he is to act civil and delve into the real content and sources, not about other editors. Tutelary (talk) 02:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I've avoided commenting on this before, but based on the while history of this dispute at WP: In my opinion JC is alleging wide-spread biases without evidence, trying to dismiss the work of almost everybody who has ever contributed to the academic or popular discussion of the subject because his own views are different. He has continued doing so to the extend that it is disruptive. His arguments here, that he can not be biased himself against Christians because he has talked to people of that religion, does not make sense to me. (It is even possible that my own views on the matter may be the same as his, but it remains the case that the position at the moment is very much a minority position, tho I would not go so far as to call it fringe, and I don't think it reasonable to pretend otherwise.) TParis, the term universally used for the RW question is Historicity of Jesus. It's not an assertion that Jesus was historically real, it's just a statement that the problem is whether he/He was historically real. "Academic history of Jesus is meaningless. The subject is precisely the question whether the faith-based account corresponds to the biography of a real individual. DGG ( talk ) 02:53, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

TL;DR version: what DGG said.

The reason why the historicity of Jesus is such a problematic topic on Misplaced Pages is that the historicity of Jesus is a problematic topic. It is an intersection of scholarly study and religious faith. Gospel scholars can debate whether Mark 13 contains an interpolation of a C1 eschatological text unrelated to the Jesus story or whether the Q-source existed despite there being no contemporary or patristic mention, without matters of faith coming into play.

The historicity of Jesus is different. It involves very deeply held beliefs about the very nature of the world and of existence. For adherents of the Christian faith in its many forms, the historicity of Jesus and its relation to the Jesus of Christianity is something that is perhaps one of the most important things in their lives. For people of other faiths, the historicity of Jesus and its relation to the Jesus of Christianity is - I will not be so presumptuous to make any comment. For non-believers, the historicity of Jesus can be a scholarly topic but often also involves very deeply held beliefs about the very nature of the world and of existence.

In short: JC - please stop making allegations of bias because someone simply disagrees with you.

Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 13:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment

I commented at the talk page, Talk: Historicity of Jesus, earlier this month, that it appears that the combined content disputes (now about whether to split the article into multiple articles) and conduct issues that interfere with resolving the content questions are likely to go to the ArbCom. Unfortunately, that again appears to be the case. Can you (multiple editors) put aside your anger to avoid having the topic area (including any future articles that are split off) placed under discretionary sanctions? Regardless of any other details of an ArbCom final decision, they almost certainly will include discretionary sanctions. For background, there was a filing at the dispute resolution noticeboard. It was declined, with the advice to take the content issues to mediation and the conduct issues here, WP:ANI. (I am not sure that mediation is the right vehicle, but that is my opinion.) I see two editors here, FearOfReprisal and John Carter, who obviously do not like each other, one of whom has been previously sanctioned by the ArbCom with respect to the history of religions. Both FOR and JC: Be civil. Equally importantly, be concise. Long WP:TLDR posts here are a common but useless practice, because they aren't read in detail. If you aren't willing to resolve your issues here, be concise, because the ArbCom doesn't accept walls of text. Enough. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

By way of background, participants may want to refer to my arbitration case for the outcome of a similar two-person dispute. Ignocrates (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Lulz

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Al Killu (talk · contribs)
• Freakdude420 (talk · contribs)
• I Cum On! (talk · contribs)
• Spank My Willy! (talk · contribs)

A minor irritant needs attention—no, WP:AIV is not the right place. Probably should semi the articles these accounts are attacking until they get bored. Johnuniq (talk) 05:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

More:

• Slimy Snake (talk · contribs)
• Thrashman420 (talk · contribs)

Would someone please indef these accounts (it's probably one person) and semi the articles (see Y2Killer (talk · contribs) who is already indeffed). Johnuniq (talk) 06:31, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

IP:46.229.193.141

Hi, I need some administrator intervention, according to the manual of style, we are not a programming guide, I have tried to remove any information that violates policy is wikipedia, but all it does ip is reverse my edits without any reason, and in my edit summary've clearly put, because I have removed this information.

Here I give some links: La impostora, I'm talking about this. If you look at the contributions of the ip, they will realize that all it does is revertirme without explanation. I do not want to violate the rule of the 3 reversals, so I'm asking for help because they do not know.

Ohter articles:

1. Mentir para Vivir: Revision history
2. Rosa diamante: Revision history
3. The House Next Door (telenovela): Revision history
4. Corazón valiente: Revision history
5. Santa Diabla: Revision history

There are many more items where the same thing is happening, I have not left any messages since the user; perhaps ignore, really do not know what to do. If they could protect the items or something.--Damián (talk) 12:42, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Crossing outs and changing names without providing citations

Hey there I want to inform that 78.86.173.85 keeps crossing names of articles even after I warned him.He also changed names of some articles without providing valid references.Here are some links kept crossing out name even after I warned him Look at his contributions you can clearly see that he is not trying improve those pages. other articles:

1. Difference between revisions
2. Thorney Island: Difference between revisions
3. Poole: Difference between revisions
4. Airport: Revision history
5. Airfield: Revision history

He edited many more articles.I hope you would look into this and provide a solution.ChamithN (talk) 13:31, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

The diffs are coming out malformed on my side, so I've fixed them below:

• "he kept crossing out name even after I warned him"

1. Larkhill (#1) (He's been doing the same edit back and forth for a few days.)
2. RAF Thorney Island (A bit different than the diff provided above)
3. RM Poole
4. Farnborough Airport
5. Hullavington Airfield

- Purplewowies (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards