Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:54, 25 August 2014

Welcome!

Hello, HyperspaceCloud, and Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions to this 💕. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{Help me}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field with your edits. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! XLinkBot (talk) 06:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Misplaced Pages • Article Creation Wizard Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Misplaced Pages is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content Miscellaneous User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

April 2014

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Elite: Dangerous has been reverted.
Your edit here to Elite: Dangerous was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/Elite:_Dangerous_FAQ) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Misplaced Pages. If the external link you inserted or changed was to an external Wiki, then please note that these links should generally not be included (see 'links to avoid' #12).
If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Misplaced Pages's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 06:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

HyperspaceCloud, you are invited to the Teahouse

Hi HyperspaceCloud! Thanks for contributing to Misplaced Pages. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Misplaced Pages and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Osarius (I'm a Teahouse host) Visit the TeahouseThis message was delivered automatically by your robot friend, HostBot (talk) 16:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Being completely out of touch

I hope I'm not coming across as a blundering philistine here! I'd hope that the fact I don't know much about the game, but have some interest in it, would actually be helpful here, because (like the MMO-or-not thing) I'm not going to be writing anything that seems "obvious" to me as a player, but which hasn't been clearly stated by Braben or the press coverage. By coming at it cold and working from published sources, this should help to build up an accurate summary of how Dangerous has been presented so far. It looks like a great game and deserves a solid article, and I'd like to help to build that. --McGeddon (talk) 11:49, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate you wanting to help, as I'm not that well versed with Misplaced Pages editing, I will help find the sources where I can. The Wikia FAQ has mainly primary sources from the devs and some secondary ones, also I would suggest you preferably use the most recent sources as things change during development and that Call of Duty reference can easily be misinterpreted (Blame Braben for misrepresenting his own game or maybe the press, same with the shard thing) as it only applies to the twitch combat and Call of Duty has nothing like a singular persistent evolving galaxy. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 12:47, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Sure, recent sources are best - it just gets tricky when we have a strong early source that's only contradicted by very weak ones later on. But I'm sure the gaming press have been over this, let's see what we've got. --McGeddon (talk) 12:45, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

BTW, don't use outdated kickstarter dev-diary gameplay footage. There is more recent material here. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 13:16, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Image tagging for File:First encounters2 180.jpg

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Image tagging for File:First encounters1 180.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:EliteDangerous logo.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:EliteDangerous logo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:First encounters1 180.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:First encounters2 180.jpg

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:First encounters3 180.jpg

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:First encounters3 320.jpg

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:First encounters4 180.jpg

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Your recent edits

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Elite articles

In the absence of an article about the Elite series, I think the Elite (video game) link is enough. We aren't helping the reader much by saying "for related information, why not see the Elite article? No? How about Elite II? Okay, not Elite II. I tell you what would be interesting to read now, though - the article on Elite III..." - give them the most useful one, don't make them guess. — McGeddon 20:07, 23 June 2014 — continues after insertion below

Sorry, but because generally only the main Elite link is referred to in other articles, where the innovation of sequels are very much relevant, I think it's appropriate to put them on top as they are all important. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 00:54, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

If the innovation of the sequels is particularly relevant to similar games (if a designer credits Frontier as inspiration, or if reviewers have compared an aspect of a game to First Encounters), you could go even further and write about that in the article. (Another editor agrees that just linking Elite would be better in the see-also sections.) --McGeddon (talk) 07:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

The fact that the media thinks that No Man's Sky invented procedural seamless planets and never mentioned the notable Elite sequels which pioneered this (I've seen quotes like: "NMS is like Elite, but with planets" at least twice by big media, see examples Here and Here, is evidence enough that the sequels should be more visible. Also compounded by the fact that Elite: Dangerous has announced big-game hunting wildlife (dinosaur-like according to Elite lore) before this game and confirmed dinosaurs at E3 they also all need to be in the "See Also" section of that NMS article. The Infinity article for example mentions the Elite sequels properly. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 07:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Have critics picked up on this? If they have, then sure, this can go in the article. If they haven't, then a WP:SEEALSO link should "provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent" so that the reader knows why it's there. But be aware of tripping into original research if the angle you're going for is "some reviews have made mistakes, this link puts them right". --McGeddon (talk) 11:08, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Sequels seem excessive detail for the WP:LEADPARAGRAPH. The sequels may well be unjustly overlooked, but they aren't among the most important things about the 1984 game. If anything, we should be moving the big, important claims about its innovation and influence nearer to the top. — McGeddon 20:07, 23 June 2014 — continues after insertion below

The sequels had more important innovations which shouldn't be overlooked and the games have been important to the Elite series as a whole. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 00:54, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Definitely. But are the game's sequels really more important than the fact that 1984's Elite was "hugely influential", "ported to virtually every contemporary home computer system" and "a classic and a genre maker", all of which are currently a bit lost further down? We should give the reader (and sites like Google that pull out the opening sentences for search results) as strong an introduction to Elite as possible, in the opening paragraph. What do you think? --McGeddon (talk) 07:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

All around the net, I've seen so many people not be aware of the Elite sequels, while virtually everybody knows about the history of the original Elite and incorrectly think the series stopped there. We have a whole generation now that don't know about the significance of the Elite sequels, which to this day hasn't been replicated in a notable commercial game. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 07:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Imagine someone who knows nothing about Elite googling it, or quickly skimming the first bit of the article to see what it's about: is it better to tell them that Elite was a groundbreaking, classic and influential 80s videogame, or that it was a videogame with two sequels? --McGeddon (talk) 10:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

It already mentions seminal HyperspaceCloud (talk) 11:07, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure. But is it better to say "it's a seminal space-trading videogame that was a classic and a genre maker in gaming history, being ported to virtually every home computing platform, it had groundbreaking 3D graphics and remains hugely influential" or "it's a seminal space-trading videogame, it had two sequels made by a Frontier Developments and there's another sequel due for release this year"? --McGeddon (talk) 11:12, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Well if we get rid of the "made/publised by company X" until later, couldn't we get the sequels to fit in somewhere there?HyperspaceCloud (talk) 11:35, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

"It's a seminal space-trading game that has two sequels and one more soon" still seems minor next to "classic, groundbreaking, widely ported, etc". I'll see what people think on the talk page. --McGeddon (talk) 11:43, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Forum links are flatly against WP:ELNO (#10: "chat or discussion forums/groups"). I didn't notice the Kerbal subreddit link because I was only looking at the see-also section. --McGeddon (talk) 20:07, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Forum links aren't against the rules, they are to be avoided which is a different thing, but the Elite: Dangerous subreddit is endorsed by Frontier Developments also I notified you about the KSP subreddit link, which you have seen by now and you didn't take action, so you don't apply your own rules consistently. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 00:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:ELNO recommends applying it with common sense. If it was generally agreeed that a forum being endorsed by a game's developers made it okay, we'd have changed "discussion forums" to "unofficial discussion forums" by now. There are a lot of endorsed forums out there. You asked me whether the Kerbal subreddit link was appropriate: if I answered it wasn't but didn't dig the article back out to remove it by hand myself, that doesn't mean I was kidding and it was actually okay. I'll go ahead and cut it now.--McGeddon (talk) 07:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for catching wherever I might have "incorrectly stated that Elite: Dangerous was already release" - I'm thinking of it as being in private beta, and may have summarised that badly. (Maybe the beta status should be more prominent in the Elite: Dangerous lead section?) --McGeddon (talk) 07:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

It's in Premium Beta (Pre-Beta) right now, which is something between Alpha and Beta. The real Beta is going to start next month followed by an Extended Beta (Gamma), followed by a commercial release at the end of the year. There won't be an open Beta. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 07:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Files for deletion

See Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion/2014 June 29#Frontier: First Encounters. --Stefan2 (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Minor edits

Just a heads up that the minor edit flag is for the genuinely small stuff: "typographical corrections, formatting and presentational changes, and rearrangements of text without modification of its content". Some editors choose to ignore minor edits when reviewing recent changes, so you should always leave the box unticked if you're making any kind of change to the content. --McGeddon (talk) 13:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 13:15, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

No Man's Sky

Misread your edit, I thought you were saying "in the style of Frontier" when you were actually saying "in the style of games like Elite, but when you click the wikilink for Elite you'll get the Frontier article". "Correcting" the source material like that is WP:OR, even when it's as subtle as a redirected link - we should assume that when the dev said Elite, he meant Elite. --McGeddon (talk) 13:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

He is talking about setting the player loose in a living breathing universe, with every planet having an ecology like Elite and then talks about upgrading ship, but original Elite didn't have much living breathing universe to speak of (economy was static IIRC) and NMS's way upgrading of ship is closer to Elite 2. And IMO if it doesn't link to the sequels then they should at least be mentioned in the See Also section. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 13:44, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Pre-beta / premium beta

But is that your own personal take on the game, or is it how developers and reviewers are talking about it? Misplaced Pages always goes with the latter, even if we personally think that they're phrasing it badly. What we can do is make sure that the article describes the premium beta in a way that makes it clear to the reader what the deal is - we should just be careful to stick to reliable sources. --McGeddon (talk) 16:09, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

It's factual. The developers said themselves that Premium Beta is just Alpha 4 with bug fixes and Premium Beta 2 added only another ship, station, 3 new star systems and minor refinements. If you follow the developers on the forum, Design Discussion Archive, Newsletters Here and Here and more to come, Dev Diaries, live streams etc, you will see that it's for from feature complete. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 17:47, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

If PC Gamer ran an article headlined Elite: Dangerous "Premium Beta" now available in which Braben is quoted as saying "the start of the Premium Beta phase is another exciting moment in our development—from today we have over 10,000 additional people playing the game", then (in the absence of any follow-up articles of similar weight which contradict it) Misplaced Pages calls it a Premium Beta. --McGeddon (talk) 16:39, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Frontier seems to have their own definition of Beta, so better not link to beta version that talks about feature complete with premium prefixed. This will lead to massive confusion.

I've started a thread at the article talk page.--McGeddon (talk) 16:51, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Flat reverts

Disagreement is fine, but can you try to avoid doing flat reverts whenever you disagree with part of an edit? I assume you don't actually have an objection to quoting Braben's "thought of doing something along those lines" in the Development section, but you took out the whole thing when restoring your preferred lede. --McGeddon (talk) 10:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see that you put it in development section and I have no problem with that quote, but I think it's still important to have something in the header too. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 10:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Elite FPS

Could you explain this on the talk thread I started yesterday? "I haven't yet seen any third-person gameplay and combat will be on foot, so I think this implies it's going to be a first-person shooter" sounds like WP:SYNTHESIS to me. --McGeddon (talk) 12:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

What I mean is that everything in ED happens in first person perspective with your own twitch skills, both of which Braben emphasized. It's not a dice rolling RPG. Also I just found a recent Q/A with Braben talking about first person walking http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/06/13/live_chat_david_braben/ HyperspaceCloud (talk) 12:35, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Please discuss this on the talk page of the article so that other editors can see it. Thanks. --McGeddon (talk) 12:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Done HyperspaceCloud (talk) 12:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Fan-based gameplay videos

I'd say fan videos were at worst WP:USERGENERATED (they can't be trusted not to be misrepresenting the game, even unintentionally) and at best WP:PRIMARY (as even a crystal clear piece of gameplay footage from Braben himself would be a primary source). If a mechanic can't be sourced to any of the current third-party reviews and previews, WP:V tells us that it's not (yet) an appropriate detail for a Misplaced Pages article. --McGeddon (talk) 11:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok thanks for clarification. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 11:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Dangerous "crucial information" revert

Look at the diff, I'm just removing excessive references and shortening the (accidentally?) repetitive "other interactions with other players and NPCs inside ships, combat and other interactions with other players and NPCs in the internal areas of space stations" to "other interactions with other players and NPCs inside ships and the internal areas of space stations". Worst I can see is that I accidentally lost the single word "combat" there. By all means add the word "combat" back, but I don't understand what "crucial information" you think has been lost here. --McGeddon (talk) 16:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Crucial info such as vehicles and turning it into buggies. Buggies is just 1 example of vehicles. Also the **huge** surfaces quote got trimmed which is an important detail as it won't just be simple levels, but full planets. And some important source about the importance of getting space right got trimmed. HyperspaceCloud (talk) 16:54, 25 August 2014 (UTC)