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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Men's rights movement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Move logs: Men's rights movement Men's rights Discussions: RM, Men's rights → Men's rights movement, Not moved, 5 nov 2011, RM RFC, Men's rights → Men's rights movement, Moved, 14 Aug 2012, RFC RM, Men's rights movement → Men's rights, Not moved, 13 Sept 2012, RM

This article is an embarassment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

the whole article is structured as a long dialog trying to state and then refute all positions held by the various men's rights group.

I think this is massively POV. The structure presents to the casual reader the impression that all those positions have been soundly refuted and have no value. If the article about feminism was structured in similar fashion, we would have an outcry on Misplaced Pages.

My suggestion would be to trim the article substantially, concentrate the "refutations" in a few places, name them as criticisim or use other language to clearly indicat they are not to be taken at face value.

Maybe there are other, better ways. But as it is, this article is ridiculous. It could as well be named "Refutation of all Positions the Men's Rights Movement ever held". This is not the way to write an encyclopedia. Wefa (talk) 22:51, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

That seems to be the general consensus when people read it. Arkon (talk) 23:09, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• Wefa, Arkon - I've actually strongly wanted to trim this article for quite some time. The unusual structure where seemingly every position of the MRM is listed and then a counter point is listed is not at all in line with Misplaced Pages's style. The laundry-list of issues (and refutations for most of them,) isn't something found on pretty much any other established article. I've tried to substantially revamp the article to be far more prose focused than it currently is at several points in the past, but have received a lot of pushback in trying to do so. If either of you are interested, I'd be happy to work on a new version of the article with you in a sandbox and then hopefully move it over once it achieved consensus. The current state of this article definitely isn't what anyone wants - it's just unfortunately what we've gotten from a lot of pushback to any major changes to the article in the past. Given the recent comparative abundance of relatively decent pop media sources dealing with the MRM, trying to restructure the article to be more well written may be something that may get less pushback than it has in previous attempts.

As one minor note: Misplaced Pages also strongly discourages separate criticism sections, and depending on the wording of the source, it's also inapproprate to imply that a criticism of something shouldn't be taken at less value than other sources talking about the same subject are (and may in fact be appropriate to phrase in a way that suggests it should be taken at *more* value if it's a stronger source.) Universally, well-written articles avoid the bullet style list this article currently uses, and also avoids separate criticism sections (criticism is instead integrated in to prose in the appropriate section that it naturally falls in to.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:15, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

What about a separate criticism article? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:37, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Generally an even more discouraged notion. We rarely have standalone criticism articles - we don't have ones about creationism, intelligent design, the Klan, or Obama. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:21, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

There is an abnormal amount of criticism in this article - it is heavily unbalanced, starting with the lede section. I think one large issue is that the article is focusing more on issues, and less on the history of the MRM... obviously there is less of that as compared to feminism, but perhaps we should be looking at the largest, most prominent organisations and individuals within the movement are, and systematically look at how they have shaped the movement through policy, theory and law changes etc. Zambelo; talk 02:25, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

If you believe the article has more criticism in it than is proportional to how the subject of the article is presented in reliable sources, I'd encourage you to start a separate section where you lay out an argument to that effect, which will include having to actually look at what the RS'es say. Although I agree with you that this article focuses more heavily on issues than it should reasonably, the MRM has received an awful lot of criticism, and that is (and will continue to be) reflected in the article, at least until the movement receives a hell of a lot more positive coverage than it has. As it stands, reliable sources about many of the prominent individuals within the movement don't even exist. The lede is far from perfect, but it draws on a high number of high quality reliable sources, and any perceived imbalance in the amount of criticism contained in it is more likely to reflect actual imbalance in how the movement is covered in reliable sources than a fault on the part of Misplaced Pages. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:21, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree, it would be misrepresentation of the sources if we were to rewrite the article as an advertisement for what is a hugely controversial and academically contested movement --2.221.89.130 (talk) 12:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

You could argue that the feminist movement also received its share of criticism, and yet this is not found on that article to the extent it is found on this one. Reliable sources that define the movement independently from the criticism should be used, and establish a complete image of the movement. Zambelo; talk 12:42, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

If you have problems with our article on feminism, you should probably take them to that article's talk page. If it doesn't follow our content policies, it should be fixed, but even if it doesn't follow our content policies (and I don't know if it does, I haven't looked at it in probably half a year,) that would not be a reason for this article to not follow our content policies. If you believe this article puts more weight on criticism than reliable sources do, I would encourage you to start another section to that effect laying out your argument in explicit detail. And yes, that will probably require a trip to the library if you don't already own the sources used in this article currently. Kevin Gorman (talk) 14:42, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, there are criticisms on many of the secular movements within Feminism, that is to say, articles like Radical feminism, Liberal feminism, Cultural feminism, Marxist feminism, Womanism, Postmodern feminism, Sex-positive feminism, Transnational feminism etc, as well as the articles Antifeminism and Postfeminism that focus mostly on criticisms of the movement. The Feminist article also contains some criticism and discusses that there were vocal critics throughout the movement. We also have a category "Criticism of feminism" with a subcategory "Critics of feminism", all of which contains further criticism of the movement. Forget the fact that it is academically backed by the people who focus on gender issues at Universities, such as in Gender Studies and Sociology fields, it has to have exactly as much criticism as the Men's rights movement in article space or it is sexism against men. Either way, we could probably add even more criticism of Feminism, it would make sense considering the gender gap on Misplaced Pages that we are overtly critical of women's rights movements. Maybe the whole encyclopedia should be criticism of Feminism and notable women, that'll show 'em guys --2.221.89.130 (talk) 11:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Fyi IP, snark and sarcasm are not helpful. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:19, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, it's frustrating when people are intellectually dishonest and try to push article changes based on comparisons (i.e. that Feminism has less criticisms in article due to editor bias - which is strange as most reliable sources on the Men's rights movement are critical of its actions, not some, like in the case of Feminism). It's a lazy comparison, but should be base the Men's rights movement article structurally on the African-American Civil Rights Movement article? No, because they are completely different things, with different sources, different goals and achievements, and different histories, with the only point of reference being that they are civil rights movements. The argument that this should directly mirror the article on Feminism is weak and not useful in the construction of an encyclopedia. These are different topics and they are treated how sources treat them --2.221.89.130 (talk) 16:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Wefa, You are exactly correct this is an embarrassment to Misplaced Pages in general and in particular to its Five Pillars. Regardless of how and how long you argue, this page unfortunately will not change until there is a will and ability by all involved to abide by the foundational principles of Misplaced Pages. Probably not going to happen soon unfortunately. CSDarrow (talk) 20:41, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

It follows how sources treat the movement. You can't give credence to ideas that don't have any backing. It's pretty evident how the website treats pseudoscience. What new sources do you have? Independent research shouldn't happen on website --80.193.191.143 (talk) 08:50, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The page content is to be driven by the Five Pillars, period. It isn't happening. CSDarrow (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Well... what exactly is wrong with following neutral point of view and using reliable sources? The five pillars seems to be a good rule for articles like this. You could contribute to WikiMANNia if you want to edit from a men's rights perspective? --80.193.191.143 (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Feminist sources are not "neutral." They should be identified in the article as feminist sources, per WP: Biased or opinionated sources:

Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that..." Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs.

This point has been repeated in just about every page of the 24 archived Talk pages of this article... Memills (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Feminist scholars are scholars whether or not you like their analysis. Scholarly sources are what should be used the most to describe this topic. Your assertion that feminists are biased does not hold any water against scholars. Misplaced Pages does not have a guideline recommending we identify peer-reviewed scholarly works as non-neutral if they are feminists. Binksternet (talk) 23:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please can we change the second sentence in this article from:

"The MRM is considered to be a backlash or countermovement to feminism, often as a result of a perceived threat to traditional gender roles."

To:

"The MRM is considered to be a backlash or countermovement to feminism, often as a result of the feminist opinion that the MRM perceive feminism as a threat to traditional gender roles."

Or:

"The MRM is considered to be a backlash or countermovement to feminism, due to their conflicting beliefs."

I have checked all the citations listed for this statement and they are almost all written by pro-feminists! One was written by a man that died a long time ago and therefore has an out dated opinion. Feminists have a clear agenda against the MRM and so it seems unfair to define the MRM based on feminist views.

I realise the first option might be seen as confrontational so maybe it would be better to use my second option. Ideally someone that is not pro-feminist needs to talk about the real reasons as to why they want to counter feminism but I can see that being messy! Until that happens the only fair thing is to remove this discrediting statement about the MRM's agenda.

Thanks.

CavemanDaniel (talk) 19:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

References

Not done: - the source you provide does not support either statement. The source just explains some MRM causes. Frankly neither of them are correct. As for your concern about sources, see the rest of the talk page about use of feminist sources. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:02, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This is false all sited supported info was Feminist written work which gives a one sided argument or view the owner can't assume she or he knows about what as been written falsely as he/she is most likely from the opposing movement. I am in the Mens right movement I know how it is I need this to be taken down or changed with non bias eyes. Punkgok84 (talk) 22:18, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

No clear request made. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit requests on 11 August 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Under sub-section "Relation to feminism", the following sentence:

"They dispute that men as a group have institutional power and privilege and believe that men are victimized and disadvantaged relative to women."

Should be changed to:

"They dispute that men as a group have institutional power and privilege and believe that men are often victimized and disadvantaged relative to women." - I suggest either "often" or "sometimes", or a word that would carry a similar meaning.

This edit is not directly backed by sources. The main reason for this edit is to make clear that the Men's rights movement is not declaring that men are in every way victimized and disadvantaged compared to women, as could be implied from the tone in which it is currently written, and are only so in certain aspects, like the rest of the article then claims (under the "Issues" section), essentially clearing up possible ambiguity and improving clarity.

Furthermore, I also request an edit on the following sentence under "Issues", under the first paragraph:

"Some if not many men's rights issues stem from double standards, gender roles, and patriarchy."

Not only does this lack any sources, seeing as the Men's rights movement denies men having institutionalized privilege it would also be logical that it denies the existence of a societal system which would revolve around said privilege (the patriarchy), and as such it could not be held as the 'cause' for these issues which the Men's rights movement claims to exist, at least from the MRM's perspective.

That being said, removing "and patriarchy" from the sentence would make it more logical, at least it would be in line with MRM rhetoric, although the sentence is still not backed by any reliable sources but rather the editor's opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Okymyo (talk • contribs) 23:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC) Added missing request code. Kizniche (talk) 00:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Partly done: I will do the first part. I think I have a source for that second one, including the "patriarchy". Give me a few minutes for it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I added a source to "Some if not many men's rights issues stem from double standards, gender roles, and patriarchy." PDF of source can be found at this link. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

It's proposed that a change should be made to the Domestic Violence section of this article, with an addition of newly-published research. This proposal is for the incorporation of two new sentences (with citations) between two currently-published sentences. The following sentences should be added:

"A 2014 study found women were more likely to be physically aggressive to their partners than men and women engaged in significantly higher levels of controlling behavior than men, which significantly predicted physical aggression in both sexes. Dr. Elizabeth Bates, who presented her research at the symposium on intimate partner violence (IPV) at the British Psychological Society's Division of Forensic Psychology annual conference in Glasgow, reported that "women demonstrated a desire to control their partners and were more likely to use physical aggression than men. This suggests that IPV may not be motivated by patriarchal values and needs to be studied within the context of other forms of aggression, which has potential implications for interventions.""

This proposed statements should immediately follow the sentence, found under the Domestic Violence topic, that at the time of this proposal, states:

"They state that women are as aggressive or more aggressive than men in relationships and that domestic violence is sex-symmetrical."

The proposed addition describes the results of a scientific journal article and a quote of the significance of the study by the main author of the study, at the symposium on intimate partner violence (IPV) at the British Psychological Society's Division of Forensic Psychology annual conference in 2014. This proposed addition supports the previous sentence (above) with peer-reviewed research and strengthens the prior claim(s) with statistically-significant data.

Additionally, the following sentence could be altered to increase flow of the sentence following the proposed addition, and improve the overall clarity of the paragraph, from:

"They frequently cite family conflict research by Murray Straus and Richard Gelles as evidence of sex-symmetry,"

to:

"Further evidence of sex-symmetry is cited by family conflict research conducted by Murray Straus and Richard Gelles." Kizniche (talk) 00:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

References

1. Bates, Elizabeth; Graham-Kevan, Nicola; Archer, John (January 2014). "Testing predictions from the male control theory of men's partner violence". AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR. 40 (1). Wiley: 42–55. doi:10.1002/ab.21499.
2. "Women more aggressive to partners than men". The British Psychological Society. June 26, 2014. Retrieved August 11, 2014.
3. Susan L. Miller; Terry G. Lilley (2008). "Female perpetrators of intimate partner violence". In Claire M. Renzetti and Jeffrey L. Edleson (ed.). Encyclopedia of interpersonal violence. SAGE Publications. pp. 257–58. ISBN 978-1-4129-1800-8.
4. Molly Dragiewicz (12 April 2011). Equality with a Vengeance: Men's Rights Groups, Battered Women, and Antifeminist Backlash. University Press of New England. pp. 84–5. ISBN 978-1-55553-739-5. Retrieved October 22, 2011.
5. Donileen R. Loseke; Richard J. Gelles; Mary M. Cavanaugh (2005). Current controversies on family violence. SAGE Publications. p. 92. ISBN 978-0-7619-2106-6. Retrieved October 22, 2011.

I won't close this since I was the one to revert the edit, but I reverted this edit before because (1) it's primary research and (2) the second source is a conference paper and thus not stringently peer reviewed. Furthermore, the sentence stating "They state that women are as aggressive..." is cited by books that also say there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. This article is about the MRM, not about supporting their claims with individual pieces of research (WP:COATRACK). I would object to the conflict tactics scale edits because Straus does not argue sex symmetry the way MRAs do. See Kimmel's paper on sex symmetry for more on this. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: You bring up valid points. However, can you elaborate on your objection to the use of primary research? Kizniche (talk) 03:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has a specific policy against primary sources as part of its general policy against original research - part of which is:-

"All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material"

Arjayay (talk) 15:34, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request 13 August

The second link in this sentence in the introduction:

The men's rights movement's beliefs and activities have been criticized by certain scholars, the Southern Poverty Law Center and commentators, and sectors of the movement have been described as misogynist.

(Citation 5)

Is a dead link.

Please amend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stingo12 (talk • contribs) 07:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

 Done Link is fixed, thanks. Grayfell (talk) 07:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

It's rather embarrassing for Misplaced Pages

That in the time I've been gone from this article significant changes have been made with little to no discussion here that have gone against consensus as it has been established time and time again, and that despite plenty of probation violations being made, no action has been taken against anyone. If you compare the last version I edited (which mostly reflected consensus as reached through repeated discussion) and the current version, the changes I am referring to should be obvious. Oh well. I'll check back again in another three months, mostly to see how bad it's gotten, with an inkling of hope that someone has started actually enforcing the probation. Patrolling admins: I imagine this section will irritate you a bit so feel free to hat it, etc. I don't intend to return to this article for multiple months, and am in a place for at least a week or two longer where I can barely edit anything anyway. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you point out specific issues? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I've gone through every edit made to this article since Kevin Gorman last modified it. Most edits have been innocuous fussing over tags and wording. The only significant content change that was not immediately reverted was the addition of a paragraph stating that the MRM has several prominent female advocates, and this seems both relevant and well sourced. I'm not sure what the problem is. Reyk _YO! 05:48, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

"the changes I am referring to should be obvious" No, they aren't. Memills (talk) 16:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad it's not just me. I didn't see any major changes either, except, as mentioned above, the list of pro-MRM women, which seems uncontroversial. Kevin, you might have to be more specific. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 16:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

How to get changes:

1. make change

either

• change is kept
• change is reverted

1. if the change is reverted, start a discussion on the talk page.
2. (optional) start an RFC
3. request close of the discussion

if the change is good, it will be done, if it isn't, it won't. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 02:52, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Feminism tagging

Could someone give me a rundown on why WP Feminism tagged this article as high importance? Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 01:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Because it is an topic discussed and studied by feminist scholars? Not sure about "high", but definitely not low. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

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