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Adult criminal record

Regarding this edit by User:Dyrnych and the previous edit by User:Editor993, the following appeared in a NY Times article about Michael Brown,

"He did not have a criminal record as an adult, and his family said he never got in trouble with the law as a juvenile, either."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 00:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

We've discussed this a couple of times. We have a source that says unambiguously that Brown had no criminal record (quoting the St. Louis County prosecutor's office) and a few sources that say that he had no adult criminal record, usually quoting the Ferguson PD. Those are consistent with each other, so in the absence of any actual suggestion that Brown had a juvenile record it makes little sense to imply that he had one. Especially when the source for the sentence in question is the one that states that Brown had no criminal record and mentions nothing about an adult record, meaning that the "adult" addition misrepresents the source. Dyrnych (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Re "quoting the St. Louis County prosecutor's office" — If you have a source that gives a direct quote, I'd be interested in seeing it. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:54, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

"An 18-year-old shot and killed near a Ferguson apartment complex Saturday afternoon had no criminal record, according to the St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's office St. Louis County Prosecutor's office confirmed that Brown had no prior misdemeanors or felonies against him." That's the source that we're currently citing in the article. Dyrnych (talk) 03:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

That wasn't a direct quote of the prosecutor's office. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

That was an Aug 14 USA Today article titled "Michael Brown had no criminal record, police say" by Aja Williams of KSDK-TV, whose report of the prosecutor’s statement was that the prosecutor said that Brown had no criminal record. It wasn’t clear from Williams’ report of the police and prosecutors statements that those statements included Brown’s juvenile record or was just his adult record. An Aug 15 article in the NY Times by Bosman, Schwartz and Kovaleski was more specific and clarified that the police statement about Brown’s arrest record did not include his juvenile record.

“He had no adult arrest record, according to the police, who said they could not speak to whether he had been arrested as a juvenile.”

Then another article on Aug 17 in the Christian Science Monitor by Scott clarified that the prosecutor’s statement was referring to Brown’s adult criminal record.

“The black teenager had no adult criminal record, according to the St. Louis County prosecutor.”

And a week later an Aug 24 article in the NY Times by Eligon was specific about Brown not having a criminal record as an adult and left the question of his juvenile record to Brown’s family’s account.

“He did not have a criminal record as an adult, and his family said he never got in trouble with the law as a juvenile, either.”

So we have an Aug 14 report of a KSDK-TV journalist in USA Today that is presently used in our article vs Aug 15–24 reports of 5 journalists in the NY Times and Christian Science Monitor. We need to change to "no adult criminal record" in our article to be specific because the statement "no criminal record" is misinformation that misrepresents the police and prosecutor's statements. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Bob. WP:WEIGHT & WP:V is clearly on the side of "no adult record", but I also agree with others that "no record in the 2 months since he turned 18" is mostly meaningless, and "no adult record" does infer/imply the existence of a juvenile record. I say we hold off just a bit, we are likely to know something about if he had a juvenile record shortly. If he had a juvenile record (of any kind) then we will need to correct the above statement (which is not the same thing as saying we should detail the contents of the juvenile record - such a decision would need to be based on the relevance of that record, and how its covered in RS) Gaijin42 (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I think footnote should be changed now from the USAToday article to the above St. Louis Post Dispatch article http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/juvenile-court-michael-brown-had-no-most-serious-felony-convictions/article_43c9bbbb-356f-5ea6-b9e2-7dde7e3e5c83.html and please remember that Judge Spiwak took the request to open the juvenile record under advisement and apparently has the power to release it later. For now, "no criminal record" is reasonable if that footnote can explain the details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.163.144 (talk) 02:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

How much credence should be given to stories like these?

• Lawsuit Claims Michael Brown Was Charged With Murder While He Was a Juvenile
• Lawsuit seeking release of Michael Brown's juvenile records claims slain teen was a murder suspect

Obviously, I don't think this kind of hearsay from unnamed sources rises to the level of RS for such allegations, but it does call into question how we should present this claim of "no criminal record", IMO. Is it better to say nothing about his criminal record at all, or note the existence of these unsubstantiated rumors, or clarify that the statement applies only to the his "adult" life? I mostly agree with Bob's interpretation of how we should present the statements. As it stands now, in the absence of better information, I think it could turn out to be very misleading. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 15:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:BLPCRIME (and the short term WP:BDP extension) we cannot put in allegations of specific crimes without much better sourcing/confirmation. The rumors may or may not be correct, but as long as they are rumors they are not acceptable in the article. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Hearing results

Per court officials, at the very least, Brown was never charged with any A or B felonies as a juvenile. This directly and definitively disproves the claims that he was charged with murder. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

According to statement from court, no "A" or "B" felony convictions or charges are a juvenile. Court taking under advisement (for release of other non felony records?) http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/juvenile-court-michael-brown-had-no-felony-convictions-did-not/article_43c9bbbb-356f-5ea6-b9e2-7dde7e3e5c83.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Fixing edit conflicts with same link. JYNX! Gaijin42 (talk) 17:29, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Second source http://fox2now.com/2014/09/03/lawsuits-seek-any-michael-brown-juvenile-records/ Gaijin42 (talk) 17:31, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Not that it matters a great deal, but notice the careful wording which doesn't rule out the possibility that he was charged and acquitted of class A or B felonies as a juvenile. But 'innocent until proven guilty', I guess. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 17:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Or diverted (although diversion would be unlikely for murder one thinks) Gaijin42 (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Change to what is publicly known about criminal record instead of "no criminal record"

There seems to be consensus that “no criminal record” needs to be changed. Also, since this discussion started there is new information about Brown’s juvenile record. So we can include that in the following.

Brown had no adult criminal record and he had no convictions or pending charges for serious felonies as a juvenile.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 01:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The lede says flatly, "Brown had no criminal record." Indeed, that echoes the USA Today source. But a little common sense would be helpful here. Juvenile records are normally sealed (with, in MO, the exception of class A & B felony convictions) and there is no indication that the St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's office was here making a release of the sealed information that there are now two suits to extract. In fact we don't know the contents of Brown's juvie file and the USA Today headline and sentence were, at a minimum, misleading. Just because you have a Reliable(sic) Source being careless about details doesn't mean Misplaced Pages has to follow it into inaccuracy. (btw: I don't expect there's much in Brown's juvie record - one of the bios, WaPo or NYT I think, mentions he'd -recently- started seeing religious visions in cloud formations, and his suddenly reckless behavior may have a common cause with that...) Andyvphil (talk) 06:35, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

No, there is no consensus that it needs to be changed. There is no proof that there is any juvenile record. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:41, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

There is no proof that there is or isn't a juvenile record. Yet the article presently says that there is "no criminal record". The proposed change does not say that there is or isn't a juvenile criminal record and is supported by three reliable sources that essentially correct the misreporting in the source that is presently used in our article. (For more details, see my previous comment of 13:04, 2 September 2014 in the main part of the section.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Dorian Johnson pleads guilty to making a false report in 2011 and serves 30 days

https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/searchCases.do by case #11AC-CR02064

11AC-CR02064 - ST V DORIAN J JOHNSON

And there's the official court documents on the .gov website. As credible, reliable and RELEVANT as it gets. It's obvious that this needs to be included since he is the key witness in this case... and has a documented criminal record of lying to the police.

71.49.219.208 (talk) 22:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Until a reliable secondary source reports this, we cannot. See our policy on the use of primary sources about living people. Court documents and records are never acceptable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:40, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Lemme guess. ABC isn't a reliable source either? Probably only CNN right? Right.

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

71.49.219.208 (talk) 23:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

One local ABC affiliate is not "ABC", and that article clearly shows a local reporter in its byline. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 23:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Just because a source is local, that does not render the source unreliable. In fact, local sources are "closer" to the story and what's happening in their community. If anything, they are more reliable. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The Washington Post's Wesley Lowery wrote an article on Dorian and Michael that will give you everything you need when it comes to talking about who they were and what they did. Now if only we didn't cherry pick just the bad parts like I am certain that we will, because who's got time in journalism for people when they don't loot and kill? I have a picture of an empty Target parking lot that I took Saturday afternoon on my second trip to Ferguson ground zero since the killing. A week ago, it was full of big rigs and generators and monster satellite dishes with logos from Fox, CNN, NBC, CBS, and all of the local stations. But then the looting stopped and they all left. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 22:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

We were here before, on August 21. To quote Dyrnych, "it's SYNTH for us to say that it calls into question his credibility in this issue unless a reliable source makes that claim." But that doesn't mean we can't include the basic fact without an attached credibility claim. The false report was when he lied to the cops about his first name, after being arrested on suspicion of theft (that case is still pending). There are a few sources, including a local TV station and The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which we're using in 16 other places, by my count. The TV station says he was charged, and the Post-Dispatch says he pled guilty to the charge. None of the big guys appear to have picked this up.

Specific proposition (as opposed to proposal), for discussion:

• Add the following text. In September 2012, Johnson pled guilty to a misdemeanor charge of filing a false report. The charge was related to a 2011 incident in which he gave a false name to police after being arrested on suspicion of theft. The theft charge is still pending.
• Cite the court record for the date of the plea, and the Post-Dispatch article for the rest. The policy given above by NorthBySouthBaranof allows for use of the primary source in some cases, to "augment" the secondary.
• The text could be added to the end of the subsection for Johnson's account, for lack of a better place. Or, to avoid even the slightest suggestion of a credibility claim, we could add a Dorian Johnson subsection to Background, since he is one of the key players, and include this there. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 00:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I would have no problem with any of this. Dorian is such a central figure that I think he deserves his own section and not just a section about his claims. I do, however, find my view of him to be radically altered for the better after reading the Lowery article about him for the first time today. It gives great insights about both Dorian and Michael that I have never seen in print before. On that basis, I would urge that a link to that article be included in the External Links section. No news agency has had more access to Dorian than Lowery was granted, and it's possible that none will be granted any such access from here on out. If either of them were my sons, I would want people to have a more balanced picture of who they were than we can get from a surveillance video and a conviction record from years past. I do think an easy-to-find link to the article would go a long way toward fending off criticisms that we are playing along in a police-friendly campaign to wipe out his credibility, which of course, a Wilson defense attorney will have every incentive to do, given the fact that Dorian alone, of all of the civilian witnesses who have come forward, has claimed to know exactly what happened from the moment Wilson drove up until the moment that Brown made a run for it. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 02:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

You know, half of the conspiracy theorists are saying the article is unfairly biased toward Brown and Johnson. The other half are saying it is unfairly biased toward Wilson and the police. That's a good indication that the article is fairly NPOV. "Fending off criticisms", from either camp, is not a good reason to do anything in this article. Anyway, you're off-topic. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 02:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I am fine with including this in the article. I am NOT fine with including it under Dorian Johnson's account until and unless there is a reliable source that states the claim that giving a false name to the police raises questions about the credibility of Johnson's account. Doing otherwise (i.e., just sticking it at the bottom of the Johnson account) would be synthesis, as we are combining the account and the false statement/theft things to imply that Johnson is lying now because he lied to the police about his name when (and this is crucial here) no source makes that claim. It is doubly problematic that the editor above who advocates for its inclusion is specifically advocating for its inclusion to make exactly this implication. In any event, as noted by NorthBySouthBaranof above, a secondary source must be used to to include any material about this matter, per WP:BLPPRIMARY: "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person" (emphasis in original). This means that we should not in any respect link to or cite the court record. I am broadly fine with Mandruss's language, again provided that this doesn't go under the Johnson account. Dyrnych (talk) 03:02, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

So you're saying that we can include the date of the plea without the court record, even though it's not mentioned in the Post-Dispatch article? (It says simply, "He later pleaded guilty.") Per WP:V? ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 03:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so, unless we find another source for that. We could include the date of the charge (do we have a source that states this?) and then saying "later pleaded guilty" seems fine, since there's no obvious reason that we'd care about the precise date of the plea when we know the date of the charge. Dyrnych (talk) 03:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Revised proposition: In mid-2011, Johnson was charged with the misdemeanor of filing a false report. He later pled guilty to the charge, which was related to an incident in which he gave a false name to police after being arrested on suspicion of theft. The theft charge is still pending. And you support a Dorian Johnson subsection in Background, per the above? ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 03:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

That sounds fine, and I will support (albeit somewhat weakly) adding the Dorian Johnson subsection in Background. The WaPo article that Michael-Ridgway referenced also has some biographical material on Johnson. Dyrnych (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The WaPo article is mostly human-interest "get to know Dorian Johnson". We have a little of that for Brown, but then he's the dead guy. It would be hard to justify it for Johnson. I did manage to pick out a couple of basic bio bits, just to justify the new subsection. I'll wait about 24 hours for any dissent.

Dorian Johnson, 22, was with Michael Brown at the time of the shooting. They had been acquaintances for five months.(ref name=WashPost.Friend/)

Johnson received his high school diploma in 2010, through a special program. The following year, he attended Lincoln University, in Jefferson City, for two semesters.(ref name=WashPost.Friend/)

In mid-2011, Johnson was charged with the misdemeanor of filing a false report. He later pled guilty to the charge, which was related to an incident in which he gave a false name to police after being arrested on suspicion of theft. The theft charge is still pending.(ref name=STLToday.Witness/) ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 04:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about value, but this transcript of an August 22 CNN broadcast includes two CNN legal analysts appearing to come down on Johnson's side as to the effect of this record on his credibility. One is Sunny Hostin, a former U.S. Attorney. "So I think what we are seeing now is the narrative trying to be changed. Michael Brown is now thug-a-fied. Dorian Johnson is now not credible. He too is thug-a-fied. And we see that happen in these kinds of cases." If anyone of CNN's RS stature (e.g., Fox) is taking the opposing position, I haven't found it. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 15:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Just a couple of paragraphs later in the the transcript you linked, another CNN legal analyst, Danny Cevallos, took the opposing position. CNN frequently has panels of legal analysts with opposing viewpoints to discuss issues like this. Cevallos said, "There has been a lot of talk about whether Dorian Johnson's past is fair to talk about. That's an interesting philosophical question. Fortunately, for us, the Missouri rules of evidence couldn't be clearer, and the rule is this: If you have a prior conviction, that conviction can come in to impeach a witness and attack their credibility." —Megiddo1013 02:20, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

If I make this change, I propose also changing "Background" to "Participants". This would correspond with the "Participants" field of the lead infobox, which includes all three men. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd make two points here concerning the inclusion of this content; 1) Once Wilson's version of the shooting is disclosed and the physical evidence is revealed, there will obviously be a considerable difference between the two narratives. Readers can evaluate for themselves who has the most credible version of what happened, without us pushing Johnson over the cliff by implying his prior bad conduct is relevant here to his narrative of what happened. 2) I'd also point out that his prior conduct under discussion here was a misdemeanor offense of lying to the police. According to what we know so far, he hasn't been charged or accused of lying to the police in this instance, in fact, his lawyer has said he told the truth to the police concerning the robbery. And if I'm not mistaken, his version of what happened being told here in this article is based on media interviews, rather than his offical statement to the police. So while it may be true that Johnson previously lied to the police, there is no evidence being reported by RS in this instance that he lied to the police. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about this one way or the other, but it's hyperbolic to say we'd be "pushing Johnson over the cliff" when we'd be going to great lengths to separate the record from the credibility. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 17:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Heres a source (mid tier RS) (weakly) making some credibility arguments (along with some additional details about what the false statements were about). Also the first RS I've seen mentioning the guy overheard on the video describing the shooting http://fox2now.com/2014/09/02/mid-missouri-man-describes-repeated-lies-by-witness-in-michael-brown-shooting-case/ Gaijin42 (talk) 17:16, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Wilson shot at Brown while Brown was running away.

I put this quote into the Sandbox that no one ever visited. Thought I'd put it here. This only came out on August 19, and the source is maybe of questionable notability. Just the New York Times. And it's only just a little thing. You know, an admission that Wilson was shooting at Brown while he was running away from Wilson. Not sure it's worth a mention in an article which is reporting on so many things of much greater importance. But as no one else seems to have caught this one in the last 13 days, I thought I'd float it out there for your consideration. If you run with it, please make a note here so I won't just be needlessly wasting time checking the article for inclusion of this detail of marginal value. (There, I've shot it all to pieces. That way none of you have to.) Michael-Ridgway (talk) 23:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

"As Officer Wilson got out of his car, the men were running away. 
The officer fired his weapon but did not hit anyone, 
according to law enforcement officials."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us/shooting-accounts-differ-as-holder-schedules-visit.html?ref=us&_r=2

I second this. Thanks for bringing this up again Michael. Saeranv (talk) 00:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

You're confused. It's not sources that are "notable" in WikiSpeak. That aside, as well as my reservations about the "reliability" of the NYT ("No results found for "he’s coming back towards the police" site:nytimes.com."), this is an extremely interesting claim about what "law enforcement officials" are saying, though it's a bit odd that I haven't seen it elsewhere. Backs up various stories that Wilson shot at Brown as he was running away which, interestingly, is legal under MO law (see Volokh Conspiracy, now found in WaPo) but a constitutional violation by Supreme Court decision. So the kill shot may be perfectly good self defense, but the shots at Brown running away may be a Federal case. Andyvphil (talk) 12:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Andyvphil, it's just gratuitous with you people, isn't it? I wrote that facetiously as badly as I could and then admitted that it was so horrible that you didn't need to tell me how horrible it is. But you just couldn't resist the temptation to step on someone's skull, I mean to insult their intelligence, even though I insulted my own intelligence, hoping that that backfire would keep yours from scorching me down to nothing. But no. Misplaced Pages editors have to be Misplaced Pages editors. It's their nature. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

You're concerned about whether the New York Times is a reliable source? Dyrnych (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

You see how far down the rabbit hole we are, Dyrnych. Why haven't we heard this elsewhere? Apparently because RS journalists are just like you and me. They read headlines. They don't go 30 paragraphs deep in a news story from the New York Times to find the one admission that ends the controversy dead in its tracks. Wilson shot at Brown (face it: six times) while he was running away. Game. Set. Match. Put a fork in it. Once the world knows that, what else is there to talk about?

Which leads me to my humble question. Which one of us is going to tell them? And will the rest of us let it stand when we tell? Michael-Ridgway (talk) 17:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

It's hard to tell when you're being facetious. Why would any number of shots fired at Brown "end the controversy"? The relevant controversy is over the killing of Brown, which didn't occur when Brown was running away. Andyvphil (talk) 23:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

You're concerned about whether the New York Times is a reliable source? Dyrnych (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The New York Times is indubitably a Reliable Source (note the capitalization, to indicate WikiSpeak). It is also indubitably and on occasion and particularly on subjects on which its reporters and editorial staff have ideological biases and agendas an unreliable source. IMHO the "he’s coming back towards the police" unsolicited eyewitness report is the most important exculpatory evidence for Wilson that has emerged so far. It's real. You can listen to the audio, and there's no plausible way it is a hoax. But doing that is of course Original Research, and all we have, apparently, reporting it in the trad MSM is this odd mention as a sidebar by some Fox staffer on the posting of an irrelevant moronic video of Howard Klutz. Andyvphil (talk) 23:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I posted the original reference to this source in the paragraph that begins with "On August 19..." within the Police statements section, because it cited "law enforcement officials". This story was mostly about the different accounts, especially Johnson's, and just mentioned firing his weapon as a side-issue, not connected to anything else.

I thought it was strange as well but, being from the NY Times, I thought it was probably reliable. Now, after a week with no confirmation (or reprints or follow-ups from the NYT), I'm thinking about removing it. Even a NY Times reporter could get a source wrong or incomplete: for example, the LEO could have said "The officer fired his weapon but did not hit anyone at first"." Comments? --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 18:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The best example of the media getting it wrong in this story is all the reporting in RS that says the police say Wilson didn't know Brown was a suspect in the robbery when he shot him, when in fact if you watch the tape the police chief says nothing of the sort.Andyvphil (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Honest question: Would it's inclusion be our call to make if it is from a RS? We could alos note in the article that the source is unattributed in the NYTimes article, and let the readers make their own decision of its reliability. Saeranv (talk) 04:57, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Being from an RS doesn't just mean the publication is reliable but also that the content is reliable; in the case of newspapers, that the story is confirmed by other news media (unless they say in the story that it's exclusive). Also, doesn't the "according to law enforcement" say that it's unattributed? How about unconfirmed? Like this: On August 19, an unconfirmed story in the New York Times reported that, according to law enforcement officials, "As Officer Wilson got out of his car, the men were running away. The officer fired his weapon but did not hit anyone." --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 14:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah ok. This edited statement is more nuanced, I think it's good. Saeranv (talk) 16:49, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

You asked, earlier: "Honest question: Would it's inclusion be our call to make if it is from a RS?" Your first obligation is to the reader, not to some policy drafting committee in the bowels of Misplaced Pages. If you detect that any number of RS are getting it wrong you want to find a way to communicate that in the text, hewing as close to W Policy as possible, but giving the careful reader some clue as to what's going on.

If multiple(!) law enforcement officialS told this reporter that Wilson shot at Brown's back it is exceedingly odd that no other reporter has put that in a story. It does match up with various eyewitness testimony, though... so perhaps the reporter was carelessly misattributing eyewitness stories, and whoever edited him didn't catch the significance of the attribution. Or perhaps I've simply missed the other stories that echo this. Andyvphil (talk) 08:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Please seek consensus first. We already have enough people singlehandedly "detecting" that RS got it wrong. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 08:26, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Consensus for what? Andyvphil (talk) 11:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

There isn't enough information for us to detect if the RS got it wrong or not. Yes, there are no other sources backing up the statement - but there is nothing explicitly wrong with the statement. To say it is incorrect is an assumption. I find RoyGoldsmith's amendment "an unconfirmed story" informs the readers of the issue accurately. Saeranv (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Robbery in lede RFC

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With specific wording to be determined later, should the lede mention the robbery

Survey

• include WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies." Gaijin42 (talk) 17:33, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include for the above reasons. As irrelevant to the issue of whether Wilson was justified in shooting Brown as the robbery is likely to be, we do discuss the robbery at length in multiple parts of the article. Dyrnych (talk) 18:05, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include - It is a very relevant part of the overall incident, based on the extensive coverage in sources. Currently, around 15% of the article discusses the robbery.
• Include – Both relevant and significant. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include However "who knew what, and when did they know it" questions will arise.Two kinds of pork (talk) 18:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include The strong-arm robbery is an important part of the narrative and article, especially considering the controversy concerning police release of the robbery tape. - A Canadian Toker (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include - I reverted because I thought the wording was awkward, not because I'm opposed to a mention in some form. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:05, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include very short mention of the alleged robbery in the lede. Details belong to the article's body - Cwobeel (talk) 14:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include If it's relevant then it must be included. Op47 (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include I can't even imagine the article without a brief reference to the event in the lede. Silvio1973 (talk) 07:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• Yes. The lede should mention the robbery with as much specificity as is necessary to convey how mangled the police claims as to whether Wilson did or didn't know about it have been. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 17:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

A good point. My (currently reverted) addition to the lede did not bring in the context of Wilson not stopping Brown due to the robbery correctly, and that is an important distinction. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• I would note there's no need to refer to it as a "strong-arm" robbery in the lead. We discuss the nature of the robbery and define the term "strong-arm robbery" later in the article, and I maintain that it's more confusing than edifying to call it a strong-arm robbery without that definition. All that said, is this an appropriate place to discuss the content of the mention of the robbery in the lead (if there's consensus for that addition)? I think it's probably fine, but I'll defer to Gaijin42 as this is his RfC. Dyrnych (talk) 19:12, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no objection to working out wording here, but if it doesn't happen here, thats fine too. So far it looks like there is going to be consensus for inclusion in some form so we might as well start hashing out the wording. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

My concern is how the robbery is tied to the shooting. I'm not sure we can get a lot of this in the lead. And btw, the correct term on Misplaced Pages is "lead" not "lede" which is a newspaper term. Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll certainly second that last sentence. WP:LEDE is a redirect to WP:LEAD. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Not that it matters, but some of us (yes, I'm guilty) use lede because lead can be ambiguous. For example, "According to the lead, lead leads other metals for battery production, but copper is used in the leads." Don't even get me started on buffalo.- MrX 20:12, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather be ambiguous than wrong. :D ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 20:18, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I make the mistake at least once a day, but the distinction is important.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Snow? Wording.

It looks like the includes are going to have it via WP:SNOW. NorthBySouthBaranof Thank you for clarifying the reason for your revert. OK, based on comments in the above sections, and elsewhere, it seems that there are several points that we may or may not want to include in the lede . I'm not saying I think all of the points below do need to be included, just listing all the ones I think might be included so we can put the legos together.

• (Police allege that?) A few minutes before the interaction, Brown (and Johnson?) were involved in a robbery
• Brown taking cigars from behind counter, shoving/assaulting clerk
• Johnson being handed cigars, placing them back on counter
• Incident was captured on surveillance video
• Johnson, lawyers, family have admitted it is Brown and Johnson on the video
• At time of initial interaction between Wilson and Brown :
  • Wilson was aware of robbery
    • 911 call from customer
    • broadcast call to officers
  • Was en route to the scene to investigate
  • But stop was purely due to Jaywalking, and initial interaction was not due to robbery, Brown/Johnson were not suspects at that time
  • At some point during stop, police posit that Wilson may have seen Robbery evidence and considered Brown a suspect in robbery.

Based on the fact that Johnson, lawyers, family, etc have admitted its Brown and Johnson, and that the Cigars were taken without paying, and that we have video I think we should drop the "Police allege that" bit. However, in the interest of innocent until proven guilty, we could describe the action directly rather than naming a crime - "took Cigars without paying, and shoved the store clerk"

So initial stab at proposed wording :

A few minutes before the shooting, Brown and Johnson were captured on a convenience store surveillance video, where Brown can be seen taking some Cigars without paying for them and shoving the store clerk. While en route to the store to respond to a 911 call, Wilson saw Brown and Johnson and stopped them for Jaywalking. Police have proposed that during the pedestrian encounter Wilson may have seen the Cigars in Brown's possession and then associated them with the store, but say the initial contact was unrelated to the incident at the store.

Some of the wording is a bit cumbersome, to avoid using the word robbery. Anyway. Comments, or alternative drafts welcome. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

That long sentence does not belong in the lede. If we mention the robbery and the alleged participation of Brown and Johnson, it should be minimal as not not to give undue weight. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:45, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

What part do you think is unneeded? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:53, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Too long and detailed for the lead. Also creates NPOV issues because we describe in detail the police's POV without mentioning anyone else's POV.

I suggest "The possible connection between the shooting and Brown's alleged role in stealing cigars from a convenience store is a subject of dispute." The police's own statements are conflicting and we still don't have clear answers as to who knew what when.NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Its an objective fact that Brown is on the video taking the Cigars. His own family, and the various lawyers for that side admit it. There is no POV involved in that. To take your wording and tweak with my response "The possible connection between the shooting and Brown's role in taking cigars from a convenience store without paying is a subject of dispute."

Works for me. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

A couple of points:

1. I don't think that this part is accurate: "While en route to the store to respond to a 911 call" My understanding is that Wilson had just finished responding to an unrelated matter and was not in fact going to the convenience store to respond to the robbery. According to this source: "Police reports released Friday under an open-records request showed that at 11:51 a.m. on the day of the shooting, authorities received a 911 call reporting a robbery at the Ferguson Market. An unidentified officer was dispatched to the store, arriving within three minutes. The officer interviewed an employee and customer, who gave a description of a man who stole the cigars and walked off with another man toward a QuikTrip store. Separately, Wilson had been responding to a nearby call involving a sick 2-month child from 11:48 am until noon, when he left that place. A minute later, he encountered Michael Brown walking down Canfield Drive. The documents contained no description of what happened between Brown and Wilson" (emphasis added). Is there any source that reports that Wilson was himself responding to the robbery?
2. Can we take the first sentence out of passive voice? Maybe: "A few minutes before the shooting, a convenience store surveillance video recorded Brown taking some cigars without paying for them and shoving a store clerk." Johnson's presence at the store is factually accurate but I think unnecessary for the lead.

Thoughts on either? Dyrnych (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification on the call. I am fine with switching to active voice and dropping Johnson from the statement. I prefer something in the realm of the longer version, but two others have voiced concern about length. What are your thoughts in that regard? Gaijin42 (talk) 17:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is my proposal based on Gaijin42's version (addition in bold):

A convenience store surveillance video showed Brown taking some Cigars without paying for them and shoving the store clerk, minutes before According to witness reports and Ferguson police, Wilson drove up to Brown and a friend, Dorian Johnson, and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. An altercation then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police car. A shot was fired from within the vehicle and Brown and Johnson began to flee. Wilson left his vehicle, fired his pistol at Brown and confronted him. Wilson then fired several shots at Brown, fatally wounding him. Witness reports greatly differ as to whether Brown was standing with his hands up or moving towards Wilson when he was shot multiple times.

I have deleted a few words from the next sentence. If there is consensus about what happened, we do not seem to need attribution.- MrX 17:41, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we need the details, can't we say that A convenience store surveillance video showed that Brown was a suspect in a robbery minutes before..., that's what he was and so was Johnson at that time. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm OK with omitting details. How about we say "A surveillance video showed that Brown robbed a convenience store minutes before..."?- MrX 18:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I prefer it to be appended to the end of the paragraph, in accordance with the principle that the most important facts are first. The article is about the shooting, not about the robbery. I propose to add, after the last sentence, The connection between the shooting and Brown's role in stealing cigars from a convenience store earlier that day is a subject of dispute. This provides an brief, NPOV statement of the facts while acknowledging the lack of clarity about who knew what, when. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

"Earlier that day" is a bit much. it was literally minutes. Your phrasing would allow for multiple hours to have passed. Most important first yes, but when we are literally talking about minutes chronologically also holds a lot of weight. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. There is at least a temporal connection between the robbery and the shooting.- MrX 19:26, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Even though there's a temporal connection, introducing the shooting with the robbery implies a causal connection that is unsupported. I support a short, separate paragraph placed after the paragraph about the actual shooting. Dyrnych (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree as well, Johnson and Brown both knew they were suspects in a robbery from minutes before, regardless of whether Wilson knew or not. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I think we've discussed this before, but we shouldn't be making the inference (especially in the lead) that whatever knowledge Brown and Johnson had about whether or not they were suspects had any connection to the shooting. Dyrnych (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

We should let the reader make up their own mind as to what may or may not be related. That involves giving the reader the factual objective information to do so. hiding that information because it might lead to a particular conclusion is not WP:NPOV Gaijin42 (talk) 19:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I am definitely not talking about hiding the information. Dyrnych (talk) 20:07, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not "hiding" the information to ensure that we don't create speculative inferences. Right now, we don't know what, if any, connection there really is. The police's information has been as conflicting as anything else. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:38, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_mere_juxtaposition Saying that the robbery occurred minutes before the shooting is not inferring anything. it is a 100% true objective fact. We are not saying anything about who knew what when, nor are we saying the robbery justifies the shooting. If events that are lieteraly minutes apart are being shifted around, there is no cohesion to the section. We could equally move away brown stopping them, or the altercation through the window, or fleeing. Why do we put them in the order they are in? Because thats the order they happened. Making an exception for one thing is making a POV decision about which items are important and which items arent. We should not be making any such decision. The neutral presentation is chronological. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

We put the events of the shooting in order; no dispute there. But events that may or may not be related to the shooting should not be placed in the narrative of the shooting because by placing them there we imply that they are PART of the narrative of the shooting. That's not a POV decision about importance. Dyrnych (talk) 21:00, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Dyrnych We are talking about the lede, not the shooting subsection. Did that get lost in the shuffle somewhere? with that clarification, does that adjust any of the comments you made above? Gaijin42 (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm talking about the lead as well. My suggestion was to have the events of the shooting, followed by a short paragraph describing the robbery. It lacks some narrative flow but makes up for it by making it clear that we (i.e., the voice of Misplaced Pages) don't know if there's any relationship between the robbery and the shooting at this point. Dyrnych (talk) 21:23, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I think its doing more than that. I think its using wikipedia's voice to say they specifically do not have a relationship. Breaking a very short chronological gap is using wikipedia's voice very strongly. If we want to say we don't know what the relationship is, we should just say that, not try to create a tortured narrative that makes the user guess. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:29, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

We can counter that by saying something to the effect of "It is currently unclear what connection if any the robbery had to the shooting." I don't see a great way to do that if we present the robbery as though it were part of the events of the shooting. Dyrnych (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Dyrnych Responding at bottom of section, so that editing is easier. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

hiding that information because it might lead to a particular conclusion is not WP:NPOV - And yet, there's been precious little support for including Johnson's record, in a neutral way, in a neutral location, using precisely the same reasoning. The argument against was exactly, "because it might lead to a particular conclusion". ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 20:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I think I've been pretty consistent with respect to both things. Dyrnych (talk) 21:00, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and you're the precious little support to which I referred. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 21:05, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I've read quickly, but by no means have studied, the material above. This seems to be about what words should be added to the lead about the robbery that took place a few minutes before the shooting. May I suggest that you're taking too long for what should be a simple summary?

The lead already includes this paragraph: "Brown had no criminal record. Wilson had served as a police officer for five years, three of those with the Ferguson Police Department. He has no disciplinary history." How about "Brown had no criminal record but was suspected in a robbery that had taken place minutes before. Wilson had served..."? If any readers want more, they can find it in the robbery section. Comments? --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 21:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Dyrnych So, what is your proposed wording, and where exactly would you place it? Gaijin42 (talk) 21:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Something like this, placed in a separate paragraph immediately below the brief narrative of the shooting:

A few minutes before the shooting, a convenience store surveillance video recorded Brown taking cigars without paying for them and shoving a store clerk as he exited the store. It is currently unclear whether the incident at the convenience store was connected to the shooting.

Thoughts? Dyrnych (talk) 22:07, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

No, we're supposed to summarize in the lead (see WP:LEAD). My change is to add 12 words in the third paragraph of the lead section: "but was suspected in a robbery that had taken place minutes before" (with the proper citation) right after "Brown had no criminal record". --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 22:12, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I too would like to see us keep the detail out, and would prefer not to add another paragraph. RoyGoldsmith's proposal seems reasonably close. - MrX 22:46, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

My problem is that we are leaving out this POV as a possibility, "at some point" during the encounter Wilson saw cigars in Brown's hands and thought he might be a suspect in the robbery. Here's another source: Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber. Here's another one from USA Today: At that point, Wilson "made the connection" that Brown might have been involved in a theft that had just been broadcast on police radio, Jackson said. The way it reads now we are implying that the pedestrian stop alone turned into an altercation and shooting, which is Johnson's POV, we should be offering the other POV along with Johnsons. BTW, A brief section in the incident report tied the robbery to Brown’s killing, which it said was “worth mentioning”. The police report (p.8) backs that up as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:45, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's sufficiently important to include in the lead, but if you can convince everyone else, I won't stand in the way.- MrX 00:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm simply trying to dispel the notion that the robbery isn't connected to the shooting. I'm perfectly fine waiting for Wilson to offer his version of what happened, so it can be included as well, rather than relying solely on Johnson's version of what happened. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Continued

First, I'm starting a new subsection. Most of the last subsection doesn't apply (and I have to scan pages and pages until I get to the point where comments may be inserted.)

Second, my addition applies to the 3rd, "background" paragraph, not to the 2nd, "incident" graph. In my opinion, it doesn't imply anything except Brown was "suspect" in a robbery. I specifically used the passive voice so that we don't say even that Wilson was aware of the robbery (or that Brown knew that the robbery had even been reported). Isaidnoway's points about Wilson seeing the cigars are well founded but they belong in the body of the article, not the lead. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 02:40, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I just bolded to include the police claim that wilson noticed the cigars. I have no issue removing it, I think the lead (and relevent section) needs to better reflect the controversy surrounding the video release and not the contents of the video itself - A Canadian Toker (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I moved this subsection up to preserve date/time order. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 03:48, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Bold Sept 4

I added the following paragraph immediately before "Brown had no criminal record"... I don't think this addition is overly long given the length of the article. I'm not sure how important the robbery was in the police interaction but discussion of the video is definitely needed. I'd like to hear others' thoughts. - A Canadian Toker (talk) 23:34, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

"After the shooting Ferguson police released video of a convenience store robbery in which cigars were stolen. The robbery happened minutes before the shooting. The Ferguson police claimed that the footage "shows a confrontation between Brown and an employee at the store." While Wilson initially stopped Brown for blocking traffic Wilson alleges to have noticed Brown carrying a box of cigars. "At that point, Wilson 'made the connection' that Brown might have been involved in a theft that had just been broadcast on police radio." The timing of the release of the video was controversial and criticized by Brown's family, politicians and others.

I need for someone to tell me our definition of "consensus". If it's "absence of clear group opposition", there are two or three changes I've given up on unnecessarily, and I can go ahead with them now. I thought consensus was presence of clear group support. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 23:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I think as a whole, this is OK, but I have removed the part about Wilson seeing the cigars, because there are a couple conflicting statements there, the police have changed their story and we should leave that complicated story to be told in the body. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:02, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

1. "Ferguson police: Cop shot teen, unaware he was robbery suspect". The Associated Press. Retrieved 4 September 2014.
2. "Chief: Officer noticed Brown carrying suspected stolen cigars". Retrieved 4 September 2014.
3. "Jay Nixon Criticizes Ferguson Police For Releasing Michael Brown Robbery Video". Retrieved 4 September 2014.

I shortened the new paragraph added by ACanadianToker to take into consideration some of the prior discussion.- MrX 02:45, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

On the robbery, and wilsons interaction with Brown

CNN interview with police chief jackson : http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/15/acd.02.html TLDR : Wilson was aware of the robbery and the cigars were stolen. Did not stop Brown in relation to the robbery, but just for jaywalking. During encounter, saw cigars.

LEMON: So, everyone made the assumption that the two were connected, right? And you said the officer who shot Brown, right; Officer Darren Wilson had no idea that Brown was a person who allegedly robbed this store.

JACKSON: You know, under initial contact, their initial contact was simply he was coming from a suitcase, saw two young men walking down the street in the road blocking, you know, traffic and he pulled up and asked them to get onto the sidewalk and then as he passed them, you know, I guess that's when you might have seen the evidence and connected it but his initial contact was strictly pedestrian.

LEMON: What do you mean seeing the evidence?

JACKSON: That there was a broadcast that went out about stealing and there were cigars stolen ...

LEMON: Right.

JACKSON: ... a box of cigars.

LEMON: OK. But when he initially confronted him or encountered him, it was just to get out of the road?

JACKSON: Right.

Gaijin42 (talk) 19:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

During encounter, saw "might have seen" cigars. Jackson speculation, not a statement that merits any weight. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:21, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Mandruss. Jackson is stating the bare possibility that something may have occurred, not that something did in fact occur. Dyrnych (talk) 19:37, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I will admit I missed the "might" on my earlier reading. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The way it's currently stated in the article: Jackson told NBC News that while Wilson initially stopped Brown for walking in the street and blocking traffic, "at some point" during the encounter Wilson saw cigars in Brown's hands and thought he might be a suspect in the robbery. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:51, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Looks like that accurately reflects the source that we're using there. Dyrnych (talk) 20:55, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

the robbery section is reflected differently. We might want to make them match. Also, the police account is listed as a bunch of chronological statements/interviews, interspersed with reactions about those releases. Seems like arranging it into "here is what the overall narrative is" and "here are what reactions to that narrative/process are" would be better - in the WP:10YT I don't think that various interviews occurred at various times is really going to be encyclopedic. Where there are contradictions or some other issue in the various statements, we can point that out, but the way it is now its really difficult to follow imo. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not envy those of you who must try to explain to the world what the police are saying happened when their prime directive has been, all along, to say as little as possible. Thank you for trying, though. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 02:52, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The beauty of this is we don't care about having to explain anything except what the sources are saying. If they contradict, well chances are another source will try to address that. One of the bennies of being a high profile case.Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The particular police account missing from our lineup is Wilson's, which we do have (third hand, but confirmed) through "Josie".

"A caller to the St. Louis radio program The Dana Show, on Radio America, gave what she said was the officer's version of events. Her account accurately matches what Wilson has told investigators, a source with detailed knowledge of the investigation told CNN." Also see . Andyvphil (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Teenager, man, young man, etc.

Why are not just stating Brown's age in the lead instead of trying to come up with a description? State the facts, please. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:13, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I support just stating the age. "18 year old African American" avoids all of the issues of description and pronouns. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought we had settled on not listing ages in the lead because if we list Brown's then someone will want to add Wilson's for parity, and so on until we end up with a bloated first paragraph.- MrX 19:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Adding the two ages does not seem to be a problem, IMHO. --Japarthur (talk) 05:29, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

You will find discussion of this topic in the archives for this page. I'm sure you can understand the reluctance to repeat all of that every time someone new brings it up again without having read the prior discussions. There is just not enough time to do that, and that is one of the reasons why talk discussions are never deleted. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 05:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

On checking to see how you guys are doing today on my way to Ferguson, I immediately noted the removal of Michael's age. I believe it should be restored. I don't have a problem with Wilson's age being there either. To me, the fact that he is so young is notable (and sad -- so much life left to live) and one might not assume him to be that young without the same being stated explicitly. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 05:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

By the way, I think that the article looks pretty good, generally speaking. Thanks for all of your work to make it so. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 05:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• There is nothing wrong with having a sense of style. Stating Brown's age then using "young man" or "teenager" afterwards is perfectly fine as long as the descriptors aren't used to garner sympathy or cast dispersion. I like for people to enjoy reading articles that not only inform, but lacks the taste of cardboard.Two kinds of pork (talk) 05:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It is simply not practical to try to cram every fact that is significant to one faction or another into the first sentence or two of the article. Sure, it's just one little number, so what am I on about? But then we have to let in the next guy's one little word or two as well, and the next, and the next, adding a comma every few words for the sake of good grammar, and before long we have an article that begins with a linguistic embarrassment—again. I'm for leaving the first two sentences alone, as I've said before. The rest of the lead is a different matter. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Not every little fact needs parity, but the age should. Killing young people is typically "worse" than killing old people. Nothing wrong with listing both ages, readers can make of that what they will. But when only one has the age, only one can be relative to the reader. We're all somewhat conditioned to treat relatively younger and older people differently, even us who don't notice it, and it plays in with our good vs evil conditioning. If we're only given one age, we default to thinking the young guy's opponent was old, the opposite. And he was, relative to Brown. But also young, relative to many readers. It's not so black and white anymore. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:28, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with listing both ages, except for what I just said, and you didn't acknowledge, let alone counter. We have age parity now: neither party's age appears in the lead, and each party's age appears in his respective bio section. (You didn't say, but I assume you're talking about the first couple of sentences, since that's what you were talking about in the other night's train wreck of a discussion. If you can sell the idea of working the ages into the lead later, I have no problem with that.) ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 08:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

If you mean because it's a slippery slope, I'll acknowledge I read it, but I don't remember much of a nightmare. There was "occured...by" briefly, but that was easily fixed. No commas needed for 28-year-old or 18-year-old. Not sure how much selling the idea needs, we all seem mostly fine with it here already. Did I mention making the edit keeps tigers away? Because it might. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:56, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

@Michael-Ridgway: Actually, what you noticed was that Brown's age was removed, after it was re-inserted yesterday. Both Brown's and Wilson's ages were absent from the lead for five days following a lengthy discussion about the lead, resulting in a consensus compromise.- MrX 13:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, well then I have given away the number of days since I decided to quit caring too much. My confidence in the collective wisdom of those who still engage is such that consensus decisions do little to change my views when something, to me, just seems wrong or less than optimal. Not meant as an attack or to be disrespectful. It's just my opinion. And I only state it as an explanation for why I would, in spite of this new awareness, still argue for the inclusion of ages if such arguing had any chance of making a difference. I don't believe it does. Hence my current detached emotional state. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 17:01, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

This user is aware that, in the end, it's only Misplaced Pages.

‑‑Mandruss (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Reorganize the procedures ?

As new procedures by the Justice Department re Ferguson and County police are said to be launched in the near future, the need for a clearer structure of "Investigations" increases. I already made a proposal that was archived. --Japarthur (talk) 05:23, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

We could also take the opportunity to put all material about the County prosecutor in a single place. --Japarthur (talk) 05:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you proposing to add a section DOJ civil rights investigation under Procedures for content related to the pending civil rights investigation of the Ferguson police department? If so, I concur.- MrX 13:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The "FBI investigation" section contains a lot that is DOJ but not FBI (e.g., U.S. Attorney). Shouldn't we rename "Department of Justice civil rights investigation" to "Department of Justice investigations" and move a lot of it there? I'm not feeling bold enough to try that, as I'm not that familiar with the material. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 21:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

That make sense, as long as it's clear that there are two DOJ investigations.- MrX 21:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I moved some of it. Some of the DOJ reference seems to be U.S. Attorneys helping with FBI investigation, so I left it in FBI. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 21:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course, since FBI is part of DOJ, we could put everything under DOJ. I'm not sure the distinction is useful. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, but I would put investigations and autopsies under procedures:

- A County procedure about the death started with a County investigation and autopsy, then the Grand jury. It could continue with a trial or not.

- A federal procedure about the death started with a FBI investigation and military autopsy. I am not sure what the next step could be.

- A federal procedure about the police department will start soon. --Japarthur (talk) 23:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Some material are mixed up. I implement my proposal. Correct me if I am wrong. --Japarthur (talk) 04:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The previous arrangement makes more logical sense. There are investigations and autopsies, not procedures. The media has consistently used the word Investigation(s) because it is clear and has specific legal meaning. The same is true for autopsies.- MrX 12:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The lead (again)

There seems to another effort underway to revise the lead. The current lead resulted from a consensus five days ago. I'm opening this section so new changes can be discussed and agreed on. For my part, I object to mentioning ages and to this ungrammatical version of the second paragraph:

Brown and a friend, Dorian Johnson were walking up the middle of a street when Wilson drove up and ordered them to move onto the sidewalk. An altercation subsequently took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV. After a shot was fired Brown and Johnson fled and Wilson followed on foot, firing his pistol at Brown. Brown stopped, turned, and was shortly thereafter fatally shot, having suffered five other bullet wounds. Accounts differ as to whether Brown had his hands up or was advancing on Wilson when the fatal shot was fired.

- MrX 16:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Physical altercation?

I looked at four online dictionaries, and their definitions of "altercation" are all similar to: a noisy argument or disagreement, especially in public. So a "physical altercation" would be a physical, noisy argument or disagreement, especially in public. I don't think that characterizes what happened very accurately at all. We don't know that it was particularly noisy, I doubt there was much arguing going on, and it was certainly a lot more than a disagreement. So the word altercation doesn't belong at all, and I changed physical altercation to "struggle". If someone wants to change that to "physical struggle", to clarify that it wasn't a verbal struggle, I could live with that; but it seems unnecessary. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 16:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

English doesn't have official standards like French, "correct" is defined by what is used. "physical altercation" is exceptionally common accepted usage, but your version is fine too. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the function of dictionaries is to describe what is used and therefore "correct". That's why we refer to dictionaries as authoritative sources on vocabulary. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 16:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that struggle is the better word.- MrX 16:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I think "struggle" preferable. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 17:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I don't object to your version, this is just for fun (Never wrestle with a pig, you get dirty, and the pig likes it) : Irrelevant and offtopic grammar nazi nerd fight : Collins specifically lists "physical altercation" as its first example of usage. OED also has "violent altercation" as one of its examples. websters unabridged says "most cases but not necessarily applied to a verbal contest"Gaijin42 (talk) 17:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I concede the irrelevant and offtopic grammar nazi nerd fight. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 17:09, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Should ages be mentioned in the lead?

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Mentioning Michael Brown's and/or Darren Wilson's age in the lead continues to be debated. To get a clearer idea of consensus, please indicate your preference (and reasoning) from the four selections below:- MrX 17:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

1 - Include Brown's and Wilson's ages

2 - Include only Brown's age

3 - Include only Wilson's age

4 - Don't include anyone's age

Survey

• No super strong opinions. In rough order of preference #2, almost tied 2nd and 3rd #1, #4, (distant last #3). Brown's age is relevant because there are competing ways he is being described by reliable sources and public voices. Wilson's is much less relevant. If he was very young it could raise issues of inexperience, but anything between 25 and 55 is not going to make much of a difference Gaijin42 (talk) 17:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support 1 — Brown's age is relevant. Wilson's age is necessary to avoid neverending debate about age parity, and it's only a few extra characters if written as "Wilson, 28,...". Oppose any ages in the first two sentences. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 17:51, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Include Brown's and Wilson's ages in the first sentence in the lead where they belong. Leave out "unarmed". Isaidnoway (talk) 18:22, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support both, again. Good info, so long as it doesn't put the youth spotlight on one over the other. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:00, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

• All or nothing ages are covered elsewhere in the article. Either both individual's ages should be in the lead or neither. There ages had little to do with the incident - A Canadian Toker (talk) 23:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

As a Canadian, you may like to know Death of Sammy Yatim has been adjusted accordingly. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:17, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Paywall help

I need someone to look at this URL and get me the article's date and author(s) for the ref. The paywall has me locked out. I have the rest of the info. Thanks. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

James Queally Aug 21, 14, 3:46 pm Gaijin42 (talk) 17:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

TYVM. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Police statements and anonymous sources subsection heading

@Cwobeel: You added "and anonymous sources" to the heading "Police statements". I assume you did this because of the Aug 20th (and, possibly, Aug 19th) paragraph(s). (To be sure, there are various comments by reporters and/or pundits on the statements themselves but, I believe, that everything else is ascribed to the maker of a particular remark.)

In the Aug 20th report, both ABC and Fox reported "according to an anonymous source" and identified him as either "close to Wilson" or "close to the department's top brass". Because of those words, I believe that item should stay in the Police statements section.

However, the exact word "anonymous" is ours, made by whatever editor entered that text and not by ABC or Fox. Upon rereading both stories, I think a better phrase would be "background" source, meaning a source that the reporter trusts but who wishes to keep their name secret. Down at the end of the paragraph, Don Lemon reports "an unnamed source with the Ferguson police". Again, this may mean a background source.

The Aug 19th report doesn't mention "anonymous" but it does report "according to law enforcement officials" (an exact quote from the story in the NY Times). I believe that phrase also identifies a "background" source and thus the paragraph is valid for our article.

Being bold, I have replaced the word "anonymous" with "background" in the Aug 20th paragraph and changed back the heading. If I missed anything else, please enter it here or in the edit summary. Thanks. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 22:34, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

You didn't explain why you changed "Police statements" to "Public statements", and you refer to "Police statements" several times here. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 22:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

So I changed it back to "Police statements" pending an explanation. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 23:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with removing anonymous sources, but also agree that 'Public statements' should be 'Police statements'?- MrX 23:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

As for the "close to Wilson/top brass" source, that closeness doesn't make or suggest him/her to be the police. At all. "Unidentified", "unnamed" or "confidential" would be a better word than "anonymous", in that case. "Anonymous" should be reserved for people even the reporter hasn't met, like the Zodiac Killer. Not sure what the header should say, but "public statements" seems way too vague. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:09, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

If it's that important not to suggest that the source is employed by FPD, and I'm not sure it is, then there's no justification for having it in the same subsection in the first place. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 23:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's important, either. Just pretty sure the editor who changed the subsection header to justify its inclusion thinks it is. If I ran this zoo, unnamed people would never count as reliable sources, even if their unattributed quotes are repeated by a billion papers. But explaining the differences between a Misplaced Pages source and a newspaper source is an uphill battle, I find. Definitely isn't a "police statement". InedibleHulk (talk) 01:31, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Good point that it's not a police statement, and one that hadn't occurred to me. If the subsection heading were consistent with the others in that section, it would simply say "Police". ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 01:45, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I renamed the subsection to "Police". The Accounts section looks much cleaner now in the TOC. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 03:04, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

No juvenile record for Brown

“The 18-year-old fatally shot by a suburban St. Louis police officer didn't face any juvenile charges at the time of his death and never was convicted of a serious felony such as murder, robbery or burglary, a juvenile court system lawyer said Wednesday.” , and . This needs to be added to the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:02, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The articles you cited and the quote do not say that Brown had no juvenile record. Please see a previous Talk section for a proposal that includes the part about no serious felony convictions or pending charges. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:10, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

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