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:::::::::Also note that the gun and scope are directed to the right of the camera. The sharpshooter appears relaxed with one arm down and is looking with his scope at something, and we don't know what it is or how far away it is. The caption that you put in the article says otherwise, "Police sharpshooter with weapon trained in the direction of the camera at protests in Ferguson." --] (]) 03:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC) :::::::::Also note that the gun and scope are directed to the right of the camera. The sharpshooter appears relaxed with one arm down and is looking with his scope at something, and we don't know what it is or how far away it is. The caption that you put in the article says otherwise, "Police sharpshooter with weapon trained in the direction of the camera at protests in Ferguson." --] (]) 03:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}
This is the way described in the media: ''The Guardian'': “A police sniper looks over the crowds” Photo: . The SWAT officer does not seem to me to be "relaxed"; he is aiming at the crowd. - ] ] 17:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


== Redundant paragraphs in the lead == == Redundant paragraphs in the lead ==

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RfC: Should article mention Brown had no (adult) criminal record?

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Should this article say that Michael Brown had "no adult criminal record" or should it say "no criminal record" or should it be "left out" entirely? Isaidnoway (talk) 17:12, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

  • NOTE: The article currently states: Brown had no criminal record as an adult, and had no pending charges, or serious felony convictions as a juvenile.

1 - No adult criminal record

2 - No criminal record

3 - Left out entirely


RFC Survey — no (adult) criminal record

  • No criminal record, per preponderance of sources. Just do some basic research on the sources available. ( 126,000 for "no criminal record" vs 1,250 for "adult criminal record") - Cwobeel (talk) 17:23, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • No criminal record, which is consistent with both sources. If it emerges that Brown has a juvenile record, we can qualify the statement. Dyrnych (talk) 18:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out Entirely. (1) There seems to be only one credible source, USA Today, which mentioned "no criminal record" as a quote from the Police Department three weeks ago, but the Police and Prosecutors have now backed away from the definitive statement; however, other blogs and editorials continue to quote USA Today. Other sources quote the Brown Family statement about "no criminal record". (2) Since MB had only been an adult for 3 months and it takes longer than that to get a criminal conviction, and the criterion being used to define the term "criminal record", seems to be a conviction for a crime committed as an adult, this is a moot point. Thus there is no reason to include a meaningless piece of data which has no bearing on the Shooting of Michael Brown. If he had a record of minor criminal convictions, I don't see this as pertinent to the Lede either. Nor do I see the point in discussing Wilson's record of no disciplinary actions. --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Left out entirely. Not the correct solution, but the best of the three choices given here. More in discussion. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • No criminal record, use the sources. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 22:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • No criminal record as per the reliable sources. As per Dyrnych, if there is a juvenile record, we can discuss it when that becomes a public matter. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:31, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out utterly Few people have adult criminal records in the span of three months, thus it is a "d'oh" comment at best. Collect (talk) 22:53, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave it our entirely - There's no reason to state what should be the default assumption of anyone reading the article. There's no content to support the notion that the officer stopped Brown, or shot Brown, because of a prior criminal record. In the future, if sources reveal that Brown had a juvenile criminal record, then that may be worth mentioning.- MrX 23:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Left out entirely or No adult criminal record — There isn't sufficient support in the reliable sources for "no criminal record". See threaded discussion below. If the question of whether Brown has a juvenile criminal record is answered through the pending court case, we can then make appropriate modifications, either including a juvenile criminal record or stating that Brown has no criminal record. --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • leave out entirely or no adult criminal record or no adult criminal record and no serious juvenile convictions Its very obvious the original statement was loose and that they were not commenting on the presence or absence of a juvenile record. I agree with the concerns about implications, but WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV win out. if its a WP:BDP issue, then it can be left out all together, but making a statement that we know is not accurate to what the sources say is just plain wrong.Gaijin42 (talk) 01:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • no adult criminal record. I'm weak on this however. While the preponderance of sources does not use "adult", the latest source apparently do. They should be given far more weight.Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out entirely if there is no criminal record, then there is no point in added it to the page. Fraulein451 (talk) 18:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out entirely from the lead, possibly include "no adult" and "no serious juvenile" in the body This is not a significant point in the body and per WP:LEAD it doesn't belong in the lead regardless of what the sources say. While the preponderance of the sources use "no criminal record", the latest sources have started using "no adult". Since these newer sources are working from newer information, and have been fact-checked, they should take precedence over the older ones.Two Kinds of PorkBacon 04:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • No criminal record should be mentioned because the rumors flying around have attempted to claim that Brown was a criminal (otherwise of course we wouldn't mention a lack of any given peculiarity). Saying "no adult criminal record" implies that there is a juvenile criminal record, so we shouldn't say "adult" unless at least one source establishes that there was a juvenile record. Does any source establish that Brown had a juvenile record? Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC) EDIT: Would also accept "no known criminal record," reasons below. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Left Out Entirely as he only recently turned 18 and therefore it's not significant that someone who just recently turned 18 has no criminal record. Leave Out Entirely any mention of a juvenile record that does not exist. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out entirely If there is no record, then it should probably be left out. Misplaced Pages can't be used as a control for potential rumors, that's what snopes is for. -- xcuref1endx (talk) 14:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out entirely from the lede and if it is relevant in the body insert no adult criminal record. I can't find any sources adequately referring to juvenile record. SPACKlick (talk) 07:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out Entirely. If sources at a later time have something definitive and articulate to say on this or a related point, such material can be added at that time. We are discussing a "bald fact" at this point. It may be premature to make a definitive statement about this at this time, and ultimately commentary on this may have to be nuanced as it may not be 100% clear what constitutes a "criminal record". Bus stop (talk) 00:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Leave out entirely. (I found this RFC through a random invitation left on a user talkpage I watch.) I find persuasive the fact that (A) there is such sketchy sourcing for mentioning it at all; and (B) he was only an adult for 3 months, making it a moot point to mention that he had "no adult criminal record." Also, saying "no criminal record" implies something we can't know for certain: that he had no juvenile record. Since records of many juvenile offenses are sealed, there's simply no way to know that, so implying it is wrong. Thus, in my view, saying nothing regarding "a criminal record" at all is the best option. LHM 00:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Results

At the request of the originator (see comments below), I am closing this RfC. The results are that what was originally added in good faith and WP:V, has now been refuted by more current sources. No replacement comment has been agreed to which succinctly summarizes the information in reliable sources. The statement No criminal record has been removed reflecting the best interpretation of consensus. --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

  • NOTE: This RfC is NOT closed, please feel free to leave a comment. The statement no criminal record has only been removed from the lede. The content has been moved to his bio section and NOW the article states: Brown had no criminal record as an adult, and had no pending charges, or serious felony convictions as a juvenile. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion — no (adult) criminal record

"No criminal record" doesn't work because it's not true. No twist of logic can justify taking "no criminal record that has been revealed" and presenting it as "no criminal record". "No adult criminal record" is true, but it implies the unstated existence of a juvenile record, which is not NPOV. If we say anything at all about his record, adult or juvenile, we need to go all the way and say everything that is known, neutrally and dispassionately. The only argument I've seen against doing that is that it's somehow not neutral to say that it is not known whether he had a juvenile record involving non-serious offenses. Really bad argument imo. Since "tell the whole truth" is not one of the options, I'm left with only "left out entirely". ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is a tough one, but I am inclined to follow the sources rather than my opinion. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Sounds bit like "I was just following orders." A historically flawed strategy in defending wrong actions. --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
This is only Misplaced Pages, Kevin Murray. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
So you don't respect the WP project enough to avoid wrong actions here? --Kevin Murray (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Sources:
Aug 14 USA Today
"Michael Brown had no criminal record, police say"
”An 18-year-old shot and killed near a Ferguson apartment complex Saturday afternoon had no criminal record, according to the St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's office.”
Aug 15 NY Times
“He had no adult arrest record, according to the police, who said they could not speak to whether he had been arrested as a juvenile.”
Aug 17 Christian Science Monitor
“The black teenager had no adult criminal record, according to the St. Louis County prosecutor.”
Sep 3 Associated Press/ABC News
”The 45-minute hearing before a St. Louis County family court judge didn't reveal whether Brown had ever been charged with lesser offenses as a juvenile, or charged with a more serious crime that resulted in a finding of delinquency — the juvenile court equivalent of a conviction.”
Sep 9 USA Today (note same author as Aug 14 USA Today)
"A judge has denied two petitions to release Ferguson, Mo., shooting victim Michael Brown's juvenile criminal records."
--Bob K31416 (talk) 20:23, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Good cherry pick, Bob. There is an overwhelming number of sources countering these few. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Well bring it, then. Bob brought hard facts, you brought your own words. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 20:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Washington Post
  • St Louis Business Journal
  • KSDK
  • VOX
  • The Strait Times
  • St. Louis American
  • Al Jazeera
and thousand more sources using “no criminal record” - Cwobeel (talk) 21:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Really? I looked at your source list, no wonder you are so confused:
• Washington Post – Clearly an editorial piece - this is not neutral nor pretending to be.
• St Louis Business Journal – bad link – goes to KERA News not the Business Journal.
• KSDK - August 18, 2014 quoting Prosecutors who have since changed statement
• VOX “Brown had no criminal record at the time of his death, according to police.” That doesn’t seem to be consistent with current statements.
• The Strait Times – direct quote from Brown’s parents in what seems to be a fairly biased piece
• St. Louis American - say confirmed no criminal record, but no source mentioned
• Al Jazeera – Are you kidding me? Again a direct quote from Brown's family --Kevin Murray (talk) 21:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Also note that,
• KSDK article was written by the same author as the USA Today article and repeats it.
• VOX article has inline text link to its source, the USA Today article, “Brown had no criminal record at the time of his death, according to police.”
--Bob K31416 (talk) 22:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Here's the corrected link for the St Louis Business Journal . --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:14, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
What is the problem with Al Jazeera? Please explain. Once you do I will respond to your other comments. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:41, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
(A) Read the article and tell us if there is any bias in the style. (B) They pander to a readership that likes to see the US embarrassed, and (C) it is a direct quote from Brown's family. I think that you have demonstrated either an extreme bias or a lack of capacity to evaluate the difference between reported facts and editorial hyperbole. --Kevin Murray (talk) 21:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
By that measure we should not be citing Fox News which "panders" to certain group, or MSNBC for the same reason. FYI, Al Jazeera is a news outlet, a WP:RS, and Al Jazeera America is becoming one of the top news channels in the USA, if you have not noted. And before you say you are confused to others, look in the mirror, please. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:53, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
You don't answer the question(s). I've seen your tactics here for a week or more. I can't see any benefit to continue dialog with you. I'll let your comments stand to demonstrate your abilities. --Kevin Murray (talk) 21:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
My tactics, sure. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
So Bob, the last three sources seem to be hedging away from an unequivocal "no criminal record. USA Today doesn't say that Brown has no criminal record. They quote that "police say" he has no record. And it seems that the authorities have since backed away from that definite of a statement. So considering the changing statements the more recent sources may be the most reliable. --Kevin Murray (talk) 20:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Authorities backed away where and when? Source? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:50, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Please read Bob's post above. It's pretty clear that they no longer support an unequivocal "no criminal record." --Kevin Murray (talk) 22:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I did. There is nothing there to support your contention that authorities have backed away from their original statement. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
See Gaijin42's recent comment in the Survey section, "Its very obvious the original statement was loose and that they were not commenting on the presence or absence of a juvenile record. ..." --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Though more sources use "no criminal record", the latest sources appear to use "no adult criminal record". I would give greater deference to the latest sources.Two Kinds of PorkBacon 18:02, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Sep 9 update from the same author and same news organization for the Aug 14 source that our article uses for "no criminal record",
"A judge has denied two petitions to release Ferguson, Mo., shooting victim Michael Brown's juvenile criminal records."
--Bob K31416 (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the original objection listed in this thread, how about "Brown had no known criminal record"? Unlike "no adult" it doesn't imply "yes juvenile." "No known" is generally understood to mean "none that anyone knows of and probably none at all but not 100% certainly none at all." Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that. While I think that no mention is best, too much time is being spent here on this one issue. --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Whether or not he has a juvenile criminal record is known to Family Court, who aren't releasing that information. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:50, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • All Misplaced Pages articles should operate in a vacuum; they should stand on their own, independent of all sources except those we as editors choose to include. Other reliable sources that we don't use don't matter. Other non-reliable sources (eg rumors) also don't matter. Those who are say that by using "no adult record" we are implying a juvenile record exists are making a fallacious argument. We make no implication whatsoever. If your doctor took a a fluid sample and reported that you did not have gonorrhea, that does not imply you are not a virgin. If we stated Brown had an adult criminal record, would anyone be complaining that we are implying Brown did not have a juvenile record? I should hope not.Two kinds of porkBacon 18:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Side topics

Alleged convenience store robbery and video

WP:alleged WP:FRINGE Andyvphil (talk) 03:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Since my addition of Ferguson's response to criticism of its release of the surveillance video to the lede left the assertion of his lack of a criminal record looking both prominent and lonely I added a mention of the ongoing suit that explicitly mentions that he might have no juvenile record at all (incl the truancy his family attorney denied would be significant, iirc), nevermind the suit. I didn't bother Wikifying it as the local claque will probably remove it. If any mention is to be in the lede there ought to be maintext that it is a summary of. There are lots of relevant text and links in this section for a section on the suit and various claims, there, and if someone in favor of inclusion of something adds that it will help their case. Andyvphil (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

That does not go into the lede, but feel free to develop the material into the article first. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:36, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
If you were paying any attention you would have noticed that I had already rewritten the relevant maintext to, among other things, include the explanation the Ferguson City Atty gave for releasing the video that I then included in shortened form in the lede. It is really annoying to to have ones work reverted by someone who imagines they own the article and have the right to use simple reverts to keep it the way they like it. Your airy assertion, "That does not go into the lede...", without feeling any need to address my point, is offensive. My argument, AGAIN, is that that (a) if the POV-pushing twaddle that is the criticism of FPD's release of the video is given prominence, then (b) the fact that the FPD has demonstrated that it was legally required to do so ought to be mentioned as well. See WP:NPOV. What is your counterargument, if you have one? And, other than that you are too lazy to pay attention, why did you restore the redundant adjectives, both "controversial" AND "criticized"? Andyvphil (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Andy, I support that you are trying to achieve a balance, but I'd rather see the first two sentences of the third paragraph of the Lede modified, than to add more on top of this already troubled paragraph. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2014 (
Ferguson has established to my satisfaction that since the robbery case was "exceptionally closed" and that the city has no more than three business days to respond a Sunshine Law request (though it has more to actually provide the material IF it must take more time to accomplish), so that it needed to release the robbery report which included the tape. This is covered to my satisfaction, pretty much, in the maintext. Why the unremarkable and unjustified wingeing about it doing so merits mention in the lede of this article I cannot imagine. So I deleted it. But that was reverted. NPOV requires the city's answer be mentioned IF the accusation is. That's the way it is right now, and I can live with it. Andyvphil (talk) 17:19, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree the part about the sunshine law is lead worthy material. I'm not so sure about the 2nd part discussing the pending lawsuit for the juvineille records. Please ratchet the language back a bit (eg "lazy"). We've had too much of that here already. ThanksTwo kinds of pork (talk) 15:41, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
On the evidence I saw and provided the revert was clearly lazy. I'll stop calling attention to it when it stops happening. Andyvphil (talk) 17:27, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

RfC Results

It seems that there is more support for removing than keeping. While not fully conclusive, I think that, for now, the Lede should begin to reflect the emerging consensus. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

That is not how RfCs work, Kevin. You're prematurely assuming that your viewpoint has won out when the RfC has been open for what, a day? There is no "emerging consensus" just because slightly more editors are currently in favor of leaving it out than keeping it in. That's the hallmark of a lack of consensus, in which case: "n discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." Please revert your edit and let the RfC run its course. Dyrnych (talk) 15:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that the statement is a magnet for editing controversy, where people keep trying to sanitize it rather than remove it. You could always put it back if the RfC changes direction. Interpreting consensus should not just be counting votes, but also measuring the discussion leading to the RfC and considering the activity in editing the article during the RfC. --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
That's why we're having the RfC: because it's controversial. Let it run its course and we'll all abide by the outcome. Dyrnych (talk) 16:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree, it's barely been 24 hours since the RfC was opened. We need to let this run for several days to try and get some community input, this debate has been ongoing for a couple of weeks now and the content in question should be left in the article. If we just remove it now, new editor's may not want to comment if they see it has already been removed before the RfC is completed. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm so happy with the other changes in that paragraph, that I'm less concerned about the Criminal Record standing for now. I don't like the Adult Criminal Record as it implies a juvenile record, which may be unfair. I'm OK for now. Thanks Dyrnych for your cleanup of my "fix". Best regards! --Kevin Murray (talk) 17:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

— Verifiability policy, section Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion
--Bob K31416 (talk) 17:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I support removal at this time, but don't want to start the struggle. I'm happier to gain the support of those seeing inclusion, on other cleanup of the Lede. The POV issues here work collectively and no individual component is as egregious as the negative synergy which had developed. --Kevin Murray (talk) 18:44, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I'll second that. Don't make me quote Rodney King. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 18:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems to be done. There are four votes out of twelve (33%) for maintaining the status quo:No criminal record, including a drop-in editor with a weak explanation for their "vote", not convincing me that much consideration was really given. Analysis of consensus should not just be about vote counting, but considering the comments and weighting the value of the arguments. I ask Mr X to fairly access and explain to us how we should proceed in evaluating these results.--Kevin Murray (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

RFC's are usually closed by an uninvolved admin who will evaluate the !votes and arguments. (See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs - Cwobeel (talk) 17:58, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I have no objection to this. Can you find one? I felt that asking a respected member from the minority to close this could be a good solution. Frankly, I'd be comfortable with you demonstrating your fair and unbiased nature by closing this for us. --Kevin Murray (talk) 18:02, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Note the excerpt here from the link you reference: "However, if the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable..." --Kevin Murray (talk) 18:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
For an administrator to close, see Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:43, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Just a note, I am a regular at WP:ANRFC and there is generally a long backlog. Stuff sits there sometimes for a month or more without being handled. If we can set aside our personal opinions and !votes and come to an agreement as to what the RFC result was it will save a lot of time and headache. (And we would likely only have an uninvolved editor handle the request, not an admin in any case) Gaijin42 (talk) 22:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. It looks like a minority wants to screw around with process and filibuster while keeping inaccurate text in place. I'm less worried about the text than the game playing. Also I noticed that the Neutrality Tag came down without any process and/or consensus. Quid pro quo. And by the onus of demonstrating inclusion per WP:V, it's time to fix the problem. --Kevin Murray (talk) 00:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I think there's been an improvement in relations between editors with different positions. Not perfect, but an improvement. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

by my count there is almost 2 to 1 (7 to 4) support for leaving out entirely vs vanilla "no record" with "no adult" a very distant third. While consensus is not a vote, generally when the !vote is so lopsided, the reasoning is something along the lines of "are the opinions on one side so exceptionally strong, or on the other side so exceptionally weak, to override the obvious answer" In my opinion the arguments on both sides are equally based on policy with it basically coming down to some people prefering one set of sources, and others preferring other sources. If those who !voted exclusively for no adult could perhaps say which they prefer of the two lead options, it may help resolve the issue. However, I have no objection to holding off and see if the RFC bot notifies some people and we get some outside opinions. We could also neutrally notify some noticeboards or wikiprojects, or even a random notification of some users to try and get more inputGaijin42 (talk) 01:55, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the neutrality tag coming off, that was a good decision as it is a minor aspect in the overall context of a long and well NPOVed article, in particular when there are constructive discussions going on. As for the closure of the RFC, I don't see we are getting any closer amongst us to reach an agreement, so we should be patient until someone uninvolved comes to close it. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I have notified BLPN, RSN, and NPOVN about this RFC. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Cwobeel, In a Sep 9 update from the same author and same news organization for the Aug 14 source that our article uses for "no criminal record",

"A judge has denied two petitions to release Ferguson, Mo., shooting victim Michael Brown's juvenile criminal records."

With this new info in mind, could you reconsider your !vote for "no criminal record"? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 09:40, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Not really. The judge's decision does not change anything, as we don't know what records, if any, he had as a juvenile. What we know if that if there is such juvenile record, that was not serious not even a misdemeanor, so I stand by "no criminal record". - Cwobeel (talk) 14:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

With the shifting of a vote this morning and per Bob's post above (a) this RfC is now concluded, and (b) Per WP:V the contested information should not have remained in place during the RfC. This is closed, moot, and the information has been removed. Returning it will be just obstinate edit warring. --Kevin Murray (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

An RFC is not a !vote. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTUNANIMITY , WP:GAME, WP:POINT - Are your arguments more than twice as strong as the other side?Gaijin42 (talk) 15:22, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, but considering the votes is part of the process. You have criticized me over belaboring issues. Please consider that you might be doing the same. I am really impressed by some of the quality and commitment that you show here, but I don't understand some of your fervor on particular issues. Clinging to this point appears inconsistent with your finer contributions. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
The RfC should not be closed until there has been no activity for a least a couple of days. It should then be closed by an admin or experienced editor, unless there is near near-unanimous agreement here as to the result.- MrX 15:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
What is your opinion of the current result (assuming no additional activity occurs). To be clear, that is a very different question that what is your opinion of the "right answer" for the RFC. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
My opinion of this three day old RfC is that comments are roughly spit between the three choices, with some commentors choosing more than one, or responding outside of the scope of the question. If I closed it now, it would be as no consensus.I believe more input is needed. - MrX 15:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Mr X, you seem to be a very fair minded person who follows policy. Please read the policy cited above regarding closing RfCs. The issue has not been contentious in itself. Only the closing of the RfC has become a contentious point, and I think unfairly so by people trying to use lawyering tactics to postpone the inevitable. I don't see any precedent at this page to drag-out the recognition of an RfC. Besides, as Bob has pointed out above, the onus falls upon those who wish to include disputed material to demonstrate the need for inclusion. Continuing this charade is counter to policy and counter to veracity. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I don't know what policy you're referring to. Could you clarify? RfC is structured processes so that consensus can be better determined. They don't end after three days, or a few hours after the last comment. I've created many RfCs and commented in many more. This is how they work. When editors have stopped commenting, someone can post a close request at WP:ANRFC.- MrX 15:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I've got an idea, maybe we should start an RfC on how to close this RfC. ;-) --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I have waited for 30 days for RFCs to close. Why not focus on other aspects of this or other articles in the meantime? - Cwobeel (talk) 15:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no problem if you want to delay the close of the RfC, but in the mean time this should not be used as an excuse to continue to post information which is no longer accurate. I believe that it was originally posted in good faith and in compliance with WP:V, but new information has refuted the original source. This process is now bringing shame on WP as a credible source of information. --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions, and consensus

Let me remind people that this article is twice over under the scrutiny of ArbCom, and has discretionary sanctions applied. Disruption of all types can lead to sanctions. Edit warring requires (at least) two to tango. On the other hand stonewalling a 2 to 1 consensus because you demand someone else close the RFC is also disruptive. The "worst case" scenario for this RFC is "no consensus" and this article is still under the protection of WP:BLP a no consensus result will result in removal per policy

  • "to ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first"
  • WP:NOCONSENSUS "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it" Gaijin42 (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Well said, but in this case BLP also applies to Brown even if he is deceased. And in this case the contentious issue is not to include the fact that he had no criminal record. And yes, the previous consensus was the current version with "no criminal record". Also WP:BURDEN has been plentifully established already- Cwobeel (talk) 15:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
The policies specifically say that removal is the default where there is not a consensus. There may have been a consensus before. At this time there is either no consensus, or a consensus to remove. Either way its going to get removed, don't be disruptive. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I disagree with your interpretation of the policy. We can disagree without calling each other names. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
You have notified BLPN, RSN, and NPOVN about this RFC. So let's wait and see what uninvolved editors have to say. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

This is my thinking: We know that Brown had no adult criminal record. We also know from a judge, that as a juvenile he did not have any serious violations. Per WP:BLP, that means that we can't say that he had a criminal record, and omitting information about his criminal record is the same as saying he had one and that violates WP:BLP. Maybe splitting hairs, but this is crucial as the politics of this tragedy is making some observers try and cast Brown as a criminal, and we should disallow that per WP:BLP. Brown may be dead, but BLP extends to the recently deceased. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Cwobeel to the extent that BLP applies here. I don't think that implying that he had a juvenile record by stating "he had no adult record" is acceptable. But per recent sources, stating that he had "no criminal record" is just wrong per WP:V. We are breaking two core rules at WP, by including any statement. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

(To clarify what judge I am referring to: A juvenile court system lawyer said at a hearing last week that Brown did not face any juvenile charges at the time of his death and was never convicted of a serious felony. (Associated press Sept 9) - Cwobeel (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)


  • Brown had no adult criminal record.
  • We know from a court officer (not the judge) that he had no serious convictions, nor was he facing any charges. We have to be accurate in to what the source actually said. There could have been previous dismissed/plead down/diverted charges in the past (though the article cannot comment on those possibilities for obvious reasons)
  • I agree we absolutely cannot say he had a criminal record
  • Omitting this is not the same thing as saying it he has a record, otherwise EVERY BLP would need to say "X has no criminal record"
  • The accurate statement (which is much too long for the lede, and possibly too long for the body is)
    • Brown had no adult record in the three months since he turned 18. He had no convictions or pending charges for serious (A or B) felonies as a juvenile. He may or may not have had lesser offenses as a juvenile but the records have not been released.
  • Both our statements are essentially re-arguing the RFC which is not super productive.

Gaijin42 (talk) 16:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Not being convicted of a serious felony is not at all the same as "no criminal record" Do you want to get into the subjectivity of saying "no serious criminal record" Are w going to do OR to demonstrate that misdemeanors are not "serious"? --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I made a BOLD attempt to resolve this. May not satisfy all of our concerns, but may be a good compromise. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Cwobeel: Please revert your bold edit. The RfC is still in progress so it is very inappropriate to add disputed content, especially to the lead.- MrX 16:23, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
We have BRD, so if this BOLD attempt is not welcome, it can be reverted. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I have removed your bold addition, per WP:BRD.- MrX 17:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I support Cwobeel in an excellent step toward meeting WP:V. Thank you! --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:55, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
It's a shame that you were reverted. I would actively repost your text, but I've already put myself in jeopardy this morning, ironically for reverting you. I encourage another editor to replace Cwobeels excellent compromise. He/she speaks the TRUTH --Kevin Murray (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, now at least the section on Brown has wording that is factually correct. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree. --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • What's the point of having a RfC and asking editor's to comment on article content when that content has already been removed? You've boldy removed the material, why not just go all the fucking way and boldly close the RfC (after 72 hours) and call it a day. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree I'll close it per your request. You opened this with the best of intentions, but it has become an abomination of mendacity, game-playing and stall tactics. What is clear is that what was originally posted in good faith was later refuted by subsequent information. This is too fast moving of topic to expect static processes to work. I oppose the use of future RfCs in this article. --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:38, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I opened this with the intention of leaving it open for the process to work, and for the community to have a chance to comment. But it seems some would rather just bully their way into getting what they want, remove the material while the RfC is ongoing and then close the RfC just as fast as they can. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:55, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I have undone my archive so that the process can continue and we can get more outside input. As the matter is disputed and a BLP issue, I thiink removal until there is consensus for inclusion is appropriate, but there is no harm in waiting for additional input. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Gaijin42, thanks for the revert, but the disputed BLP issue was only edit-warred from the lede, the disputed BLP issue is still in article space with the juvenile record added. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Incident report states specifically that robbery suspect description was radioed out to Ferguson dispatch.

This from page 6 of the strong-arm-robbery information pack handed out by Chief Jackson on the 15th of August:

So I returned to the Ferguson Market to contact employee there. I contacted ____ on the parking lot, who continued to point of W. Florissant toward Quik Trip and say, "He went that way." he was indicating with his hands toward his chest and then north on W. Florissant. I still could not see the suspect on W. Florissant, and ___________________________. I went inside to contact a _______ clerk, who was not identified at that time, and ____ and _________ patron, who was not identified at that time, who advised the suspect took cigars and pushed ________ on his way out. He was wearing a white T-shirt, khaki longer shorts, yellow socks, and a red Cardinals ball cap. They also stated that another Black male was with him, but gave no further description on that suspect. I gave out that information over the radio and drove northbound on W. Florissant. so I went into Quik Trip to search for the suspects, and did not locate them. Anything further will be submitted in a supplementary report.

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/ferguson-police-department-incident-report-on-aug-9-robbery/1256/

I submit it in support of a claim that it is highly likely that Darren Wilson, (who never left his vehicle until the moment that the first shot was fired) had heard the other officer give out Brown's description (along with, no doubt, a mention of the items purportedly stolen). I further contend that there is nothing unusual in the fact that Wilson chose to raise the issue of their walking in the street rather than immediately broach the subject of shoplifting, theft, or robbery. Police who suspect that a driver of a vehicle matches the description of a wanted suspect will often look for (or if they feel like it, invent) a pretext for pulling over a driver, which then gives them the ability to do further investigation without the driver necessarily knowing that he is suspected of a crime. Of course, Brown and Johnson weren't driving. How convenient for Wilson that they were walking in the middle of the street when it came time to move in for closer inspection.

I am searching Google News in hopes of finding a reliable source who makes mention of this radioing out of Brown's description, but so far have been unsuccessful. So the chance of finding an RS that has gone second level all the way to an analysis of the plausibility of the claim that Wilson wasn't aware of the theft or of the description of the thief on first approach, I'm guessing is going to be pretty tiny. So many primary source dots. So few journalists connecting any of them. So many holes in our article. Just sayin'. Not ragin'. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 01:31, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

As I recall, the account is that Wilson stopped Brown for jaywalking, went to drive off, immediately heard about the robbery on the radio then came back. I don't understand what you are trying to say. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
If we had Wilson's account in the article...((insert repeated rant here))...you would know that Wilson reacted to the refusal to to go to the sidewalk - and to being cursed out - by pulling up, parking and calling for backup. Then he heard about the robbery on the radio. Andyvphil (talk) 04:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
If Anonymous had secured the Ferguson dispatch recordings instead of the St. Louis County Dispatch recordings, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? But the police insist on withholding information that they could easily make public. The prosecutor insists on a star chamber proceeding rather than putting his cards on the table and telling us why or why not he is or isn't charging. And as best I can tell, what is secret today is going to stay secret for as long as any of us shall live. This is all very uncool. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 06:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
You know that the Grand Jury will not write a report? Andyvphil (talk) 07:16, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Michael-Ridgway, I still don't see what point you are trying to make regarding our article, and it's looking like you are just making random forum comments that aren't coherent. For reference, here's what's in our article regarding the police version of the stop.
"Hours later, Jackson said Wilson was not aware of the robbery when he stopped Brown. Still later, Jackson told NBC News that while Wilson initially stopped Brown for walking in the street and blocking traffic, "at some point" during the encounter Wilson saw cigars in Brown's hands and thought he might be a suspect in the robbery.
--Bob K31416 (talk) 14:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
The two statements are consistent, with the latter containing an additional suggestion by Jackson that is almost certainly misrepresented (in the source) as an assertion. So there is both unnecessary duplication and a probable falsehood. Congratulations, Misplaced Pages! Andyvphil (talk) 19:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

To those asking what my point was in posting this quote from the incident report, it is to give people like Andyvphil (I think Andy is the one I looked it up for) down-page fodder for the conversation that was started above titled: "The Atlantic Wire and MSNBC have reported on the changing nature of the department's statements." It was also me asking for help in finding a reliable source that specifically addresses this statement made in the incident report that the description WAS in fact radioed out, making it totally plausible that Wilson's decision to confront was based on BOTH the receipt of a description of the suspect that matched Brown AND the receipt of specifics as to what item or times were stolen. I haven't found such a reliable source. So we are stuck in the OR/Synthesis morass, right, i.e., we have a bit of very useful primary source info, but no RS, as best I can tell, has written about it in the context of the controversy over the question of whether Wilson did have full knowledge of Brown's shoplifting or not on his approach to the scene. I am persuaded that he did, for what it's worth. You probably don't want to hear why. Sorry to all of who view this attempt as an abject failure. Some of us aren't just born with that Misplaced Pages gene. We have to get our 10,000 hours in first. I have at least 9000 to go still. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Michael-Ridgway, In my previous comment, I gave the part of the article that is the police account of the stop of Brown by Wilson. Is there anything in that excerpt that you would like to change or add to? --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:23, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I did. Get rid of the media-invented falsehood. Add the best, clearest, account of the encounter, which is Josie's, to the article. Note that what Jackson actually said accords with the Wilson account, and mention the problems a lot of the media had getting it right. When Salon and the Huffington Post are running headlines and articles saying, falsely, "Jackson Lied" I think that says something about the coverage of this event of which an interested reader should be informed. Andyvphil (talk) 04:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I would concur with Andyvphil. In researching witness statements today, I came across a video of MSNBC's Chris Hayes who was openly discussing, as of Aug. 11, the rumors that Brown had been busted for shoplifting. or words to that effect. If MSNBC was onto that rumor within 48 to 60 hours of the shooting, it would be hard to believe that there wouldn't, by the 15th of August, be multiple requests for information that could support or refute such rumors. I can't find a single reliable source that details the work of the other policeman who went to the Ferguson Market to get the full details on what had gone down there. My question to the rest of you would be to ask if we might cite directly to the incident report and inform our readers that, circa 11:53, the time stated on the report, that a second policeman had radioed a description of Brown cigarillos along with the complainant's claim that Brown had stolen cigarillos. We could then state, based on such statements which are plentiful in reliable sources that it is unknown whether Wilson had heard that report by the time he apparently decided to back up and "confront" Brown. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 06:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Again we don't have to rely on our intuition as to whether the FPD got relevant Sunshine Law requests. the Ferg. City Atty names two, and I found TV Anchor Mandy Murphy's statement that she had made a written request. The "The Blot" guy missed where it said in the FAQ that Sunshine Law requests don't have to be made on any particular form. Andyvphil (talk) 06:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
We are neither investigative journalists, nor researchers weighing in on the merit or lack of merit of media sources in their reporting. That is not our role, per WP:V ] content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. When reliable sources disagree, present what the various sources say, give each side its due weight, and maintain a neutral point of view. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Michael-Ridgway and Andyvphil, Suggest you each make a proposal with specific wording and ref that you would like for the article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
We don't need to be investigators. WP:V is satisfied easily for this information, http://kplr11.com/2014/08/15/video-timeline-of-robbery-surveillance-video-purportedly-showing-michael-brown/ verifies that Channel 11 made the sunshine request. Not to mention Mandy Murphey personally verifying her request as well as idenfitying requests by several other news outlets. .https://www.facebook.com/MandyMurpheyFOX2/posts/706732609401003 Gaijin42 (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
If I make a request under sunshine law, I need to get what I asked. But Jackson chose to release that video to all the press at that very strange conference (he did not take questions, and asked the press to "digest" the tape and ask questions at a later conference), when what was expected is the release of the name of the officer involved. There are abundant sources that describe these action by Jackson in the press conference as not only a strategic release to criminalize Brown, but as one of the causes of the unrest that followed. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:55, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Abundant sources of tendentious unhappiness that, outside the fever swamps, the video quashed the usefulness of the "Gentle Giant" narrative do not add up to anything more than massed whining. Andyvphil (talk) 02:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Changing WP:V is your only recourse. I think you are crossing a line with these comments. WP:BLP applies here even if the person is deceased. Have some respect for Pet's sake. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:53, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

2014 Ferguson unrest - article

The Ferguson unrest article had devolved into a POV mess which I have hoped to stay away from. But continued attempts to force the Lede here to echo that Lede forces attention there to cure neutrality concerns there. Frankly I think that article should go away and be merged here. I invite others to review and begin work to fix the problems there. --Kevin Murray (talk) 12:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

No, thanks. But, yes, the attempt to import a POV victory elsewhere was laughable. However, you reverted to an earlier version that I'd replaced simply to get rid of bad writing w/out changing the regnant POV. What is your objection to the version I've restored? Andyvphil (talk) 13:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
We tend to agree more than disagree, but I did not feel that your writing was better, and it seemed more critical. --Kevin Murray (talk) 14:01, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Critical of what or whom? I'm not seeing this. The version you reverted to asserts things that are dubious and incoherent, but not obviously supportive of any particular point of view. What the heck does it mean to say "the mix...continued"? The only thing that continued was that things kept changing from day to day. Was it really "significant(?) criticism "from(!) the media" that "led(?)" to control being shifted to the State Police, or was that just some decision by Nixon on his own hook? This is meaningless verbiage masquerading as information. Andyvphil (talk) 18:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I interpret the "mix' to refer to a mix of peaceful and non-peaceful actions (as enumerated). --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I do believe that the sources demonstrate a cause and effect between the criticism of the local agencies and the control being shifted to the State Police. Do you seriously dispute that?--Kevin Murray (talk) 19:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely. The claim is unsourced in the lede, which would be OK except that it's not even made in maintext. What is your source for this dubious assertion of cause-and-effect? Andyvphil (talk) 09:37, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I have restored the on this assertion to the lede (that someone deleted) as there seems to be nowhere else to put it. Andyvphil (talk) 02:53, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:FORUM & WP:TPO edit warring

Let me remind both of you that we are under DS here, don't work too hard for your sanctions, or you will get what you ask for.. Cwobeel, try to reign in the forum, I know its tough, we all have difficulty with it (seriously, I'm probably not one to talk here) but the comment in question probably isn't super helpful. Malerooster the comment probably isn't egregious enough to get sanctioned over. You made your point, that talk section will get archived before long, just let it go. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

IMO Malerooster appropriately redacted a NOTFORUM comment by Cwobeel. I have repeatedly done the same, including removing that very same comment myself, only to have it restored. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 13:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Educate yourself. "NOTFORUM" despite its seemingly relevant name has nothing to do with what you're complaining about. And TALK PAGE GUIDELINES make it clear that no matter how many times you've been a dick, it was never "appropriate". Stop. Andyvphil (talk) 16:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
What does it mean, then? I've read the policy many times; do tell. In any event I didn't say anything about approving of Malerooster being a "dick". I was commenting only on a single edit of his -- one which looked quite appropriate to me. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:TPO does allow for removal or collapsing of talk comments in very limited situations. While I think Cwobeel's comment was unhelpful to improving the article, it (by itself) does likely not qualify for summary execution by removal. Possibly collapsing could be appropriate, but in any case, warring over if it is included or not is way more disruptive than the comment itself ever was. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of unrest in lede

In the lede, this sentence:

"The mix of peaceful protests along with vandalism and looting continued for more than a week with occurrences of violence and curfews at night."

… was replaced by

"Protests, both peaceful and violent, and vandalism and looting continued for more than a month, along with night curfews."

The second version does not reflect the lead of the Ferguson unrest article, so I have restored the previous version, which it does, not to mention the grammar of the second version with two running "and"s - Cwobeel (talk) 17:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Or event better, we can use what is currently in the lead of the unrest article, which is concise and to the point:

"Along with peaceful protests, there was looting and violent unrest in the vicinity of the original shooting."

- Cwobeel (talk) 18:07, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with either of your preferred choices, and agree the middle replacement version has grammar issues (although I do not object to the content within it) Gaijin42 (talk) 18:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
In typical underhanded fashion, Cwobeel defends his revert of my edit ] without either linking to it or mentioning my edit comment, "'Some protesters were seen throwing Molotov cocktails at the police'", and I gather he has removed the supporting cite to the BBC, containing that quote, from the lede as well. The individuals throwing gasoline bombs, not to mention the brick which broke a cop's ankle, were neither vandals nor looters, at least at the instant of these violent acts. In the article linked to, and many others, they are called "protesters", and Cwobeel's assertion that we are obliged to import a POV-pushing fiction from another article is absurd. The "protests" were both peaceful and violent. That is a fact. Andyvphil (talk) 02:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
In typical fashion, you need to cool off, this is not a battleground. Yes, I agree that there was violence (from both sides), some looting and riots, but what you have there in the lead does not present an accurate picture of the unrest. It only describes the first week, but protests have been going on for a month now and violence subsided almost completely once the highway patrol took over from whats was described as an incompetent police and over-aggressive response by local police. So, my point is that the lead needs to describe the protest in toto, not just the first week. Capsice? - Cwobeel (talk) 02:45, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Also note that curfews were imposed three or four nights only during a month long protest, but what we say there seems to indicate that the curfews were ongoing and that the protests lasted a week. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Given the contention, rather than being BOLD, here is a proposal to add as a second sentence to the lede describing the unrest after the first ~10 days:

After tactical changes in policing where implemented by Governor Nixon, in which local police ceded much of its authority to the Highway Patrol and in which the use of militaries police was drastically reduced, de-escalation ensued with mainly peaceful protests continuing for the next weeks at Ferguson.

- Cwobeel (talk) 03:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I think details of how the conflict de-escalated do not belong in the lead. The lead needs to be shorter, not longer. Fnordware (talk) 15:59, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Aftermath in Ferguson

This section is not balanced and does not represent an NPOV summary of the main article. There is very little information about what was reported as an over-aggressive police response, the ceding of authority by FPD to county and state forces, the controversy around arrests of journalists, the de-escalation, and other crucial information. I have placed a POV tag to encourage editing that section to compliance. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I tried checking it for NPOV by looking at it paragraph by paragraph, and looking at the pictures. Here's my opinion about each of those parts, FWIW.
¶1 — neutral
¶2 — anti-police
¶3 — anti-protestors (long)
¶4 — anti-police (short)
¶5 — pro-police (short)
Picture 1 — pro-protestors
Picture 2 — anti-police
Picture 3 — anti-protestors
The POV tag doesn't seem appropriate. However, that doesn't mean it can't be improved. I'd roll up an old newspaper and remove the dog urination/rolling over memorial sentence in the 2nd paragraph, shorten the 3rd para then add a brief part to it about over-aggressive police response and ceding authority to county and state. Then we might restructure the 3rd, 4th and 5th paragraphs, making them two instead of three. All the changes should be done with a moderate tone instead of an extreme tone.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a main article about this subtopic that is referred to at the beginning of the section, so we should try to minimize the use of details here.
--Bob K31416 (talk) 12:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
The POV tag has nothing to do with "pro protesters" or "pro police", so I don't know why are you unpacking my concern in that manner. The section is not representative of the content of the unrest article, and it needs to be per WP:SUMMARY. It needs to be rewritten wholesale. - Cwobeel (talk) 13:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm open to looking at your proposed NPOV summary here. (BTW, I noticed that there is a POV tag at the main article 2014 Ferguson unrest so any summarizing should be careful not to transfer any POV problem from that article to this section.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:04, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
And I am open to yours too, if you want to give it a go. The POV tag was added two days ago without any explanation about why that was necessary. POV tags are not badges of shame, and are set to start a discussion. I have removed it and posted a comment in that article's talk. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:20, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

photos

Its great that we have a wide selection of photographs for this article from several photographers who have released their photos, especially photos of the notable individuals are great additions.

For illustrative photos though, once we get past one or two photos for each concept (scene, peaceful protest, looting, police actions, etc) I think the marginal utility of additional photos diminishes very quickly.

For example, these protest photos are already in the article, or have been recently uploaded at cwobeels request. I object to none of them, but once one (or perhaps two) of them is in the article, what is the next adding? Similar galleries could of course be created for photos of the police, or looters, or each other subject - to be clear my concern is not about the just protest photos, it is just the easiest to illustrate.

Gaijin42 (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The "hands up no shoot" has been the motto of the protests and it should be illustrated. The memorial is a powerful image as well. As for other images, we need to show the clashes with police, the peaceful protests, and the violence as well. A well illustrated article is always an improvement. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The memorial shows both the memorial, and hands up don't shoot. what do 3 photos of people carrying signs show that is not already illustrated by 1? None of those photos involve the police, or violence etc. I realize some of the other photos are not yet in the article, but since you asked for them to be uploaded I am assuming you intend to use them at some point. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
No that was not my intent, I added some of these to the unrest article, not here. The sharpshooter aiming his weapon at peaceful protesters in broad light, is another one that we should keep, as it was the image that stirred the controversy about militarization and the response by the Federal government and state government. We should be thankful that a journalist has released these images under CC. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't look like the sharpshooter is aiming the weapon because he isn't looking through the sight. He seems to be at the ready. Also, that picture overflows into the next section about the federal government. Looks like too many pictures. Recall that there is a main article for the unrest topic, so we should keep this section short. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:32, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Here as another one of the sharpshooter from the same photographer (and if you watched news that day, you could clearly see him aiming at the crowd that was peacefully protecting and in broad light. No, I am not kidding. In the USA from all places). - Cwobeel (talk) 02:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
That photo also doesn't show the officer aiming the weapon at anyone (or aiming it at all, for that matter). The way he's positioned, he wouldn't even be able to see the lens of his sight. Are there any available photos of the armed gang members who were present at the "peaceful" protests and who declared their readiness to use their guns against the police? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I removed your newly added picture per my previous remarks. If you would still like to add it, you'll need consensus. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Really? Maybe we need consensus to remove it? Just kidding. I think the sharpshooter photo I posted above is the one we need, as it is very telling of what happened there in the aftermath of the shooting. I'll wait until that photo is in Commons before I re-add it for discussion. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Hmmm. I thought you were going to "re-add it for discussion" here before you added it to the article. Oh well, just an honest miscommunication. I deleted it for similar reasons that I mentioned for the other picture. Additionally, NPOV considerations for pictures in that section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:33, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Haw can a photo of police militarized action that was covered substantially in the press , and which resulted in Gov. Nixon removing FPD authority from Ferguson be an NPOV issue. Not having that photo is a violation of NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
The images of the officer atop the vehicle pointing his mounted weapon at crowds is quite important to understanding the events and received in-depth commentary and coverage. Good addition. Darmokand (talk) 03:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Cwobeel, I see that you are trying to get this new edit into the article by edit warring. I think you should be waiting for a consensus for the new edit like I am doing in a similar situation in the talk section below, Proposal to balance a criticism of prosecutor with a defense.
Your remarks don't address the NPOV issue of having 3 out of 4 pictures in the section on one side of the controversy. Your remarks also don't address the other issues from our previous discussion a few messages ago that apply to this new picture too: “ Looks like too many pictures. Recall that there is a main article for the unrest topic, so we should keep this section short.” The current state of the section "Aftermath in Ferguson" after Cwobeel's revert is . The subject sharpshooter picture is the fourth one of the section and overflows into the next section.
Also note that the gun and scope are directed to the right of the camera. The sharpshooter appears relaxed with one arm down and is looking with his scope at something, and we don't know what it is or how far away it is. The caption that you put in the article says otherwise, "Police sharpshooter with weapon trained in the direction of the camera at protests in Ferguson." --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

This is the way described in the media: The Guardian: “A police sniper looks over the crowds” Photo: . The SWAT officer does not seem to me to be "relaxed"; he is aiming at the crowd. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Redundant paragraphs in the lead

I think the second and third paragraphs in the lead should be deleted. The ones starting with "Brown and Dorian Johnson were walking…" and "The Ferguson Police Department released a video…" Both of these paragraphs are overly specific, while the lead should be general. Readers will find the details repeated in the sections below. Fnordware (talk) 06:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The setence regarding the video has been trimmed down substantially since it first appears. I think it is important (and should be expanded) because it reflects the broader controversy surrounding whether the police were trying to disparage the memory of a man they killed. - A Canadian Toker (talk) 15:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I think if we're going to lean on this claim that the police released the video to "criminalize" Brown or "disparage his memory", we should not fail to reflect the argument that Brown's parents were using dishonest claims about their son's supposedly "gentle" nature to attempt to disparage the police and undermine their account that Brown was fighting with Wilson and attempting to take his gun. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:43, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I added the word controversially to the sentence. The lede should be highly summarized, so getting into the details of why it was controversial, and what each sides arguments are, is too much for the lede imo. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
But I don't think the video controversy is significant enough to be in the lead. It's more of an important footnote, described fully below. I would cut everything from "The disputed circumstances of the shooting…" to "…a store employee who tried to stop him from leaving." Fnordware (talk) 15:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I certainly disagree with that much trim the MOS:LEAD should serve as a mini-article and discuss all prominent controversies and issues. Those paragraphs may need to be tweaked but removing all of those topics from the lead all together would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:19, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Concur with Gaijin42 - Cwobeel (talk) 16:35, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Let's use the Trayvon Martin article as an example. There is only one sentence in the lead that describes the actual event: "Zimmerman shot Martin, who was unarmed, during an altercation between the two." The rest of the lead is aftermath. The lead is not supposed to be a "mini-article" that discusses all prominent issues, it is supposed to be "an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects." In my opinion, the specifics of the event and the convenience store tape are not the most important things in the article, but that's just my opinion. Fnordware (talk) 17:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I can tell you from my experience from working on that article during the intital editing of the lead when it was still a current event (like this one is), it went through the same revisions, re-wording and attention that we are currently experiencing at this article. The lead will eventually stabilize when it's no longer a current event, just like it eventually did there. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to balance a criticism of prosecutor with a defense

In a recent edit, a sentence that defended Prosecutor McCulloch from a criticism regarding a 2000 case was removed. I propose restoring it for NPOV. This proposal concerns the third paragraph of the current section Grand Jury, which would be changed to the following if the proposed sentence is added to the end of it (the proposed sentence is underlined in the following).

Previously on August 17, Cornell Brooks, the president of the NAACP, had called for a special prosecutor in the case, saying that was needed to restore credibility with Ferguson's black community. On August 21, State Senator Jamilah Nasheed presented a petition with 70,000 signatures calling for McCulloch's recusal, based on the close relationship between McCulloch and the police department, as well as accusations that he didn’t file charges when he should have against two undercover officers who shot and killed two unarmed black men in 2000, and other controversies. A subsequent federal investigation found that the shooting was justified.

3. Nicholas J.C. Pistor and Joe Holleman (August 16, 2014). "St. Louis prosecutor has faced controversy for decades". St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Retrieved September 9, 2014. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

--Bob K31416 (talk) 23:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want that text, then we need to expand the criticism of McCulloch, which you deleted. So less is more. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:53, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Giving the reader a detailed understanding of the reasons why so many people want McCulloch to step down seems a sensible step. His documented manipulations of grand juries and lies to the public - and his close family ties with the police - go beyond what remains in the new version of the article and should be mentioned in some details, IMHO. "STLToday.Petitions" that was hidden is the most complete presentation I found. --Japarthur (talk) 03:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Shaun King

I just reverted some additions attributed to Shaun King regarding the distance of the body to the SUV. While I think his distance analysis may be correct, there is no way he is anywhere near to a reliable source, and given the sensitivity of this article, we should not be setting any kind of precedent regarding souring things to twitter and unreliable blogs , even if they may be right or have a point. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

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