| Revision as of 21:40, 12 October 2014 editTennispompom (talk | contribs)108 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 22:35, 12 October 2014 edit undoHerzen (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,826 edits →Welcome!Next edit → | ||
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| :::::: Cheers Herzen! I'll spend tomorrow on reading the guidelines and learning the accronyms, feels like a whole different world. I hate to admit it, but it's true I have a tendency to try and fix things, e.g. straighten pictures on walls. It all comes from my background in science, auditing and programming - too cautious, detailed and pedantic by far. I'll try not to bore everyone to tears in the next couple of days. I've been thinking, perhaps my contribition could be to restructuring the article headings, a framework on which to hang the pieces of information - what do you think? Too much of a bite for a beginner? Of course I would propose it first - I have no intention of editing a single word of the article until I know what I'm doing. Alternatively, I could pick on small items to try and improve. Do pls let me know what you would suggest. ] (]) 21:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC) | :::::: Cheers Herzen! I'll spend tomorrow on reading the guidelines and learning the accronyms, feels like a whole different world. I hate to admit it, but it's true I have a tendency to try and fix things, e.g. straighten pictures on walls. It all comes from my background in science, auditing and programming - too cautious, detailed and pedantic by far. I'll try not to bore everyone to tears in the next couple of days. I've been thinking, perhaps my contribition could be to restructuring the article headings, a framework on which to hang the pieces of information - what do you think? Too much of a bite for a beginner? Of course I would propose it first - I have no intention of editing a single word of the article until I know what I'm doing. Alternatively, I could pick on small items to try and improve. Do pls let me know what you would suggest. ] (]) 21:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::Your intervention shows that you write well, which indicates that you would make a good editor, so your being only newly active at Misplaced Pages is irrelevant. You have put more thought into how to go about fixing the article than I have. I have only tried making piecemeal changes. I don't know if I have ever read the article all the way through. If you really intend to revise the article significantly, I will look at it more closely in order to be able to give you feedback. | |||
| :::::::The main thing one needs to learn as a WP editor is how the rules work. The pro-Kiev junta editors are very expert at gaming the rules in order to establish extreme pro-junta bias in all the articles. The bias is present in all the Ukraine related articles, not just MH17. The problem is that, as has been noted in a non-MH17 talk page, there is an information war going on between the West and Russia. (I say "the West", as opposed to "the US", because since. about 2000, European media have lost their earlier tendency to be somewhat left-of-center and critical of Western governments, so that the line they now take on various issues is virtually indistinguishable from that of the US press.) This means that "reliable sources" will be biased towards the fascist Kiev regime. Virtually the only place you can find criticism of the Kiev regime is in alternative Western sources ("newsblogs" in wikispeak, "unreliable" by definition) and in the Russian media. This is why editors constantly ridicule Russian media as unreliable. This central WP rule that articles must be based on "reliable sources" is gamed to produce anti-Russian bias. An example of how this works. At one point, I noted that the February 2014 overthrow of the government in Kiev was a coup, not a democratic revolution, as WP presents it, and I offered an article by the eminent John Mearsheimer in the top American foreign policy journal in support of that. But that got me nowhere, because although Mearsheimer is an undisputed expert, he is a primary source, whereas WP is based on secondary sources, and Western secondary sources studiously avoid calling the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Kiev by an armed mob a coup. | |||
| :::::::A little piece of advice: if you are going to seriously start editing, I suggest that you put something into our user page. Otherwise, your user name shows up in red in edit hitories, and editors whose names show up in red are considered to be dilettantes by hard core wikipedians. You can look at various users' user pages to get ideas for what to put in your user page. (Just click on "edit" on their page without ever committing an edit to see the page's code.) Also, you might have a look at ]. | |||
| :::::::I have never left such a long comment on a user's Talk page before, btw. – ] (]) 22:35, 12 October 2014 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 22:35, 12 October 2014
Welcome!
Hello, Tennispompom, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
- Introduction and Getting started
- Contributing to Misplaced Pages
- The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
- How to edit a page and How to develop articles
- How to create your first article
- Simplified Manual of Style
Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or click here to ask for help here on your talk page and a volunteer will visit you here shortly. Again, welcome! Arnoutf (talk) 17:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi Tennispompom and welcome again. Just a point for consideration. Misplaced Pages is full of nice and helpful editors who are happy to collaborate.
Sadly there are also many aggressive editors, who will do everything that is allowed to have their point of view reflected. Some articles are highly contended and currently MH17 is one of those. Much of the effort on that page goes to bickering, and finding ways of blockong input (objecting, voting against, reverting) from others instead of the much needed improvements. Regarding MH17, I was heavily involved at first, but with the evermore aggressive tone I have now largely pulled out of that article.
If you consider to become a regular editor it may be more gratifying to start with a less sensitive topic; to avoid being confronted with the sometimes harsh mores that go on at the more sensitive ones. Up to you of course, but at least know that not all articles are as complicated to improve as that one. In any case, have fun. Arnoutf (talk) 17:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Arnoutf and thanks for your warm welcome! I haven't yet worked out how to send a message or reply to one, so I that hope that you get to read this "Edit"!
- Hi Arnoutf and thanks for your warm welcome! I haven't yet worked out how to send a message or reply to one, so I that hope that you get to read this "Edit"!
- Thanks also for the "break" tip, which appears to generate a new paragraph, all very useful.
- Thanks also for the "break" tip, which appears to generate a new paragraph, all very useful.
- Please don't be so defeatist re attitudes of some editors, I hope they are in the minority! Misplaced Pages is a brilliant idea and my first point of call on many topics, so I was aghast at the low level of editing on this article. However, I've not had that much exposure to items with a political dimension, so I was gobsmacked to see the lack of neutrality and - dare I say - civility on the Talk pages. At first I was amused, then I got hooked (you must admit that drama makes for good reading), and finally I thought it had gone too far and it was time to say something!
- Please don't be so defeatist re attitudes of some editors, I hope they are in the minority! Misplaced Pages is a brilliant idea and my first point of call on many topics, so I was aghast at the low level of editing on this article. However, I've not had that much exposure to items with a political dimension, so I was gobsmacked to see the lack of neutrality and - dare I say - civility on the Talk pages. At first I was amused, then I got hooked (you must admit that drama makes for good reading), and finally I thought it had gone too far and it was time to say something!
- I hope that you think Misplaced Pages is worth fighting for. If good editors give up, Misplaced Pages will become no more than a propaganda tool and irrelevant, and I will go back to commenting on tennis. Nice meeting you.
- I hope that you think Misplaced Pages is worth fighting for. If good editors give up, Misplaced Pages will become no more than a propaganda tool and irrelevant, and I will go back to commenting on tennis. Nice meeting you.
- Indeed the nasty editors are a small minority. But they tend to flock to the politically sensitive articles, so they are overrepresented there. Right now there are just too many editors who have a specific point to make, who spend too much time on MH17 to achieve much.
- You can post on other users talk pages - a wikilink to talk pages is visible in the signature; and from the history listing of articles. If you use the new section tab you will create a new section at the bottom automatically.
- Thanks Arnoutf. Looks like I found the right battleground. I'm off sick at the moment, due to go back to work mid week, so let's see what I can do in the next couple of days. Not much, I suspect.
- Thanks Arnoutf. Looks like I found the right battleground. I'm off sick at the moment, due to go back to work mid week, so let's see what I can do in the next couple of days. Not much, I suspect.
- How do I find out who is currently allowed to edit the article? Is there a list somewhere? The talk page is confusing, apparently anyone can edit but not really because it is protected.
- How do I find out who is currently allowed to edit the article? Is there a list somewhere? The talk page is confusing, apparently anyone can edit but not really because it is protected.
- Also, is there a process to deal with disputes, e.g. intransigence, rudeness, etc.?
- Also, is there a process to deal with disputes, e.g. intransigence, rudeness, etc.?
- A warm welcome from me, too! That was an extremely well written intervention.
- Several editors have tried to do something about the absurdly biased nature of the article but finally given up and left, two of them after having administrative actions being launched against them (which failed, but had an intimidating effect nevertheless).
- The MH17 article is currently semi-protected. That means only registered users (but not "IPs") can edit it. So you can edit it.
- As for dispute resolution processes, see WP:mediation and WP:arbitration. – Herzen (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Cheers Herzen! I'll spend tomorrow on reading the guidelines and learning the accronyms, feels like a whole different world. I hate to admit it, but it's true I have a tendency to try and fix things, e.g. straighten pictures on walls. It all comes from my background in science, auditing and programming - too cautious, detailed and pedantic by far. I'll try not to bore everyone to tears in the next couple of days. I've been thinking, perhaps my contribition could be to restructuring the article headings, a framework on which to hang the pieces of information - what do you think? Too much of a bite for a beginner? Of course I would propose it first - I have no intention of editing a single word of the article until I know what I'm doing. Alternatively, I could pick on small items to try and improve. Do pls let me know what you would suggest. Tennispompom (talk) 21:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Your intervention shows that you write well, which indicates that you would make a good editor, so your being only newly active at Misplaced Pages is irrelevant. You have put more thought into how to go about fixing the article than I have. I have only tried making piecemeal changes. I don't know if I have ever read the article all the way through. If you really intend to revise the article significantly, I will look at it more closely in order to be able to give you feedback.
- The main thing one needs to learn as a WP editor is how the rules work. The pro-Kiev junta editors are very expert at gaming the rules in order to establish extreme pro-junta bias in all the articles. The bias is present in all the Ukraine related articles, not just MH17. The problem is that, as has been noted in a non-MH17 talk page, there is an information war going on between the West and Russia. (I say "the West", as opposed to "the US", because since. about 2000, European media have lost their earlier tendency to be somewhat left-of-center and critical of Western governments, so that the line they now take on various issues is virtually indistinguishable from that of the US press.) This means that "reliable sources" will be biased towards the fascist Kiev regime. Virtually the only place you can find criticism of the Kiev regime is in alternative Western sources ("newsblogs" in wikispeak, "unreliable" by definition) and in the Russian media. This is why editors constantly ridicule Russian media as unreliable. This central WP rule that articles must be based on "reliable sources" is gamed to produce anti-Russian bias. An example of how this works. At one point, I noted that the February 2014 overthrow of the government in Kiev was a coup, not a democratic revolution, as WP presents it, and I offered an article by the eminent John Mearsheimer in the top American foreign policy journal in support of that. But that got me nowhere, because although Mearsheimer is an undisputed expert, he is a primary source, whereas WP is based on secondary sources, and Western secondary sources studiously avoid calling the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Kiev by an armed mob a coup.
- A little piece of advice: if you are going to seriously start editing, I suggest that you put something into our user page. Otherwise, your user name shows up in red in edit hitories, and editors whose names show up in red are considered to be dilettantes by hard core wikipedians. You can look at various users' user pages to get ideas for what to put in your user page. (Just click on "edit" on their page without ever committing an edit to see the page's code.) Also, you might have a look at WP:userboxes.
- I have never left such a long comment on a user's Talk page before, btw. – Herzen (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Cheers Herzen! I'll spend tomorrow on reading the guidelines and learning the accronyms, feels like a whole different world. I hate to admit it, but it's true I have a tendency to try and fix things, e.g. straighten pictures on walls. It all comes from my background in science, auditing and programming - too cautious, detailed and pedantic by far. I'll try not to bore everyone to tears in the next couple of days. I've been thinking, perhaps my contribition could be to restructuring the article headings, a framework on which to hang the pieces of information - what do you think? Too much of a bite for a beginner? Of course I would propose it first - I have no intention of editing a single word of the article until I know what I'm doing. Alternatively, I could pick on small items to try and improve. Do pls let me know what you would suggest. Tennispompom (talk) 21:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC)