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Aggressive and abusive editing, excessive abuse etc by User:FleetCommand

• FleetCommand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• List of The Big Bang Theory characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

At List of The Big Bang Theory characters, FleetCommand is being aggressive and confrontational in such a way that rationally disussing disputed content is not possible. He has also been edit-warring and attacking me in edit-summaries in the article. It is not presently possibly to make constructive edits to the article because FleetCommand would rather edit-war than discuss and refuses to respect WP:BRD, also demonstrating a degree of WP:OWN over the article.

FleetCommand visited my talk page a month ago. Discussion seemed to be progressing until he decided to call me scatterbrained. He was called out on this by another editor, and from there the discussion went downhill. (see archived discussion) More than a month after last editing List of The Big Bang Theory characters he returned to the article, leaving an edit summary that read "Repaired damage inflicted by User:AussieLegend". The "damage" was a deliberate choice to use {{anchor}} instead of {{visible anchor}} for a non-credited name. After that edit, I fixed a template name leaving an admittedly childish summary, as a way of hinting to him that he isn't perfect either. That was reverted with the summary "Reverted tendentious violation of WP:NOTBROKEN. {{tl|Official}} redirects {{tl|Official website}}. Only AussieLegend is interested in conflict. I went to his talk page in peace but he kept stonewalling me and playing dumb". Seeing that as clearly going overboard, I left a note on FleetCommand's talk page. I don't believe I went too far in addressing the situation, although I was (naturally) a bit terse. At this point Codename Lisa inserted herself into the discussion. Despite attempts to give her some background (We have had prior amicable dealings at Windows XP) her posts became more and more accusatory and hypocritical. She even criticised the editor who had called out FleetCommand on my talk page, simply because he said "fuck", even though he was not part of the conversation. Eventually I chose to withdraw from that discussion, and concentrate on the content issues by moving the disussion to the article's talk page. However, that didn't stop her unjustly accusing me of being a liar. Discussion on the article's talk page continued but Codename Lisa continued to question my conduct so I left what I feel was an appropriate post on her talk page (several times she admonished me for addressing FleetCommand's conduct but, hypocritically, continued to criticise mine).

FleetCommand's involvement in the article talk page discussion had been minimal, essentially consisting of a single paragraph, to which he added a trivial question and a baseless claim of sockpuppetry. Since then he has only announced that he made an edit that hadn't been properly discussed, followed by an attack. FleetCommand has made aggressive and inappropriate edit summaries in the article, edit-warring as he did so:

• "Deleted {{verification failed}}. Per talk page, verification passed the test at 3:54. Actually, I did know that. I just wanted to see if AussieLegend resorts to this combative action. He did"
• "Deleted {{weasel-inline|date=October 2014}} because it is a peacock term, not a weasel word. Of course, because AussieLegend only seeks warfare, he doesn't care. Also replaced the term." - This is of particular note because {{weasel-inline}} wasn't added by me. It was added by an IP.

In addition to the inappropriate summaries, FleetCommand has edit-warred. Because of threats by Codename Lisa, I decided to document the warring instead of fixing the errors that were introduced. I did this here for anybody who wants to look. The edit-warring continues. Today, FleetCommand made some unexplained changes to the article, which I partially reverted, explaining why in each summary. Note that I did not revert all of his edits, as there was some constructive editing. In fact I deliberately did not restore two notes that have been added to the article because of prior problems with other editors. In today's edits I also made two changes so that the article reflected what is in the sources (the previous version contained significant WP:SYNTH). FleetCommand's actions were to revert most of the changes that I made, leaving just this portion remaining. He graciously "consented" (his word, not mine) to that edit. And there is still no attempt by him at discussion on the article talk page. I am not claiming total innocence, but I believe that I have tried my best to collaborate with this editor, only to be abused for my efforts. This is not a simple case of edit-warring. A break from the article for whatever reason has been shown not to work. After a month away FleetCommand returned to the article and with his first edits he chose to attack me. While content is an important part of this, the main problem here is FleetCommand's continued aggressive editing and abusive edit summaries. He has been blocked in the past, multiple times, for his attitude to other editors and edit-warring. There are even concerns about his actions at WP:AN right now. This is an editor who needs to be reminded that he has to collaborate with other editors, and fully justify his own actions, not to rely on somebody who seems to have a rather strange off-wiki relationship with him. I'm asking that he be given some firm direction in this area, and reminded that he can't edit-war. Even after he was convinced in an IM to revert an inappropriate reversion, he has continued edit-warring. He also needs to respect the BRD process and not discount edits made by other editors. Given that he's editing just as he was when he was blocked I don't have a lot of hope though. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• User:FleetCommand: Hey, quit talking about the editor. Calling people warriors in edit summaries is going to make them warriors. Your causing a self-fulfilling prophecy. Quit being a dick. Okay, let's close this and everyone move on.--v/r - TP 19:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

If only it was that easy. FleetCommand only seems to be taking advice from Codename Lisa, and then only when it suits him. In this edit he self-reverted because she told him to, but in his very next edit, he effectively reverted himself, removing a ref and completely changed the context of one statement, turning a sourced statement into nonsense. that had to be fixed. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Those are content issues, we can only address behavioral issues here, sorry.--v/r - TP 21:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I was addressing behavioural issues. My point was that he is unlikely to take notice of your comment. The edits I referred to were examples of his inconsistent behaviour. --AussieLegend (✉) 21:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Just keep reporting instances of WP:NPA and at some point an admin will have to take preventative action.--v/r - TP 21:19, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@TParis: Should I have to keep reporting until an admin finally decides to do something? This is an editor I'm reporting now for several instances of inappropriate behaviour including, but not limited to NPA, incivility, edit warring, asserting ownership of an article and refusing to discuss edits. This is an editor who has a long history of NPA and incivility and has been blocked for it several times. A quick check through his edit history shows instances of incivility, such as one edit where he calls another editor a pig. Why shouldn't something be done now? @FleetCommand: - That Codename Lisa may have said that verification does not fail does not mean she is correct. Anyone can look at the episodes and see she is wrong and I have explained why on the article's talk page. You claim to be open to discussion, but I've tried to discuss and you don't seem to want to. All you do is edit-war and when I try to discuss you fob me off or ignore me completely. You need to collaborate and respect BRD, not make excuses not to do so. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:48, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

"...when I try to discuss you..." Diff of your attempt please! Fleet Command (talk) 15:39, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure, here's an example: I tried to address the issue of the unexplained heading changes,, which you completely ignored in your reply. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

"He graciously "consented" (his word, not mine)".
"you completely ignored in your reply."
Make up your mind. Did he ignored or did he graciously consented? 86.57.57.209 (talk) 22:53, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

He graciously consented to restoring the row scopes that he deleted but completely ignored the issue of the unexplained heading changes that he had changed. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:44, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

If so, "completely" is false, he partially ignored, partially consented. Next, you complain when he disagrees, you complain when he is silent, you complain and mock when he consents. Hence, you complain regardless of what he does and find the idea of reaching a consensus moot. Hence, he is not to blame for what he does. 86.57.54.112 (talk) 08:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I realise you're from Iran, so English probably isn't your first language, but he "completely ignored the issue of the unexplained heading changes" is entirely accurate. The point is, he only responds to what he wants to respond to. For example, I've been waiting four days for him to discuss the issue of the original research that he has inserted into the article on the article's talk page but he has not been seen there. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:49, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You realize wrong; I am in Iran, not from. And I know six languages including English. But, if you want to continue down this path, please be my guest; I'll take my leave now but I would be very surprised if anyone, be it Iranians, Australians, Americans, Frenchmen, Russians, Chinese, Cubans, North Koreans or Syrians ever tried to help you. 86.57.54.112 (talk) 11:24, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

@TParis: You talk exactly like Codename Lisa. (So, if you ever wanted to be his paid sockpuppet, ask for a hefty sum! It was a joke by the way.)

Look here, now. I am open to an actual discussion. But a peace conference is not held in the middle of a war. Saying "The matter of failed verification has been thoroughly rebutted without further opposition" does not change the talk page sentence from "verification doesn't fail" to "verification does fail". Also, I think you would agree that I wasn't a dick throughout September. But looking at that time, do I look a hero to you? Or do I look like a dufus? Fleet Command (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• An example of the ongoing confrontational editing by FleetCommand can be seen above. When I replied here I noticed that FleetCommand had applied some peculiar indenting, but I tried to retain the original indenting. Expecting that fixing his would result in an inappropriate response, I decided not to fix his indenting. He subsequently changed my indenting with the edit summary "Indenting your message correctly is a good start. As for the rest, do your worst." After I actually fixed the indenting, the confrontational summaries continued. Instead of leaving the indenting alone, he's now moved his post after mine, so I'm now replying to a post after mine, which is bound to confuse the casual reader. It doesn't matter what he's replying to, FleetCommand just continues to be confrontational. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:25, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello. So, these two finally found their way into ANI? Sad but predictable.

Overall assessment:

• The article's condition is stable; this amount of revert and partial revert is natural on any article. Only by looking at the user conduct we see that there is actually a problem.
• Fleet Command (FC)'s edits are resentful; he edits at the wrong time, and doesn't seem to be in hurry to call in appropriate dispute resolution processes. I know how to deal with such editors; a little respect and a little compromise can solve it.
• AussieLegend (AL) has entered Mastadon Mode: Not only he is assuming bad faith, he sees everyone and everything as threat, does not give up an inch of his position for a compromise and aggressively posts a combative reply to every talk page post. (If I posted a comment that said "Fleet Command, shut up!", AL(not FC) would have replied by saying "I won't shut up".) And most importantly, he resorts to lying a lot. Should I list them chronologically or categorically? Let's go with chronological. (See below)
• Other involved editors are myself (Codename Lisa) and CyphoidBomb, although we didn't the article. CyphoidBomb was only present during the first stage of the dispute.

User talk:AussieLegend

The whole discussion can be seen in revision #625920663. It started on 1 September 2014. FC started it with an icebreaker, but unlike what AL said in the opening statement here, it was not going well. I was aware that AL is misinforming FC, although only when the "scatterbrained" comment came I realized that FC was acutely aware of this. Now, AL did mention that CyphoidBomb used less-that-civil language to scold FC. What he didn't mention – TParis, I hope you are reading this – was that FC apologized early in the incident. almost immediately. In addition, AL does not seem much bothered by this brief exchange at that time. Later, CyphoidBomb also apologized. Most importantly, the discussion didn't go downhill since; it died then and there, and not because of the brief uncivil exchange.

User talk:FleetCommand

The whole discussion can be seen in revision #629285971 except for what's visible in revision #629165515. Please correct me if I am wrong but the opening statement by AL is purely ad hominem because its purpose seems to be to hurt, to threaten or to get even. (It certainly wasn't a collegial attempt to resolve any dispute.) When I tried to calm both down and said "discuss the content, not the people"; FC replied "let's do it" while AL replied "don't throw NPA at me"!

Also, AL revealed his absolute unwillingness to give any form of compromise, not matter how small. Normally, when I see such edit, I don't bother thinking about it, let alone bringing it to ANI. If I know that it upsets someone and hinders discussion, I categorically avoid it. Instead, AL did this: Childish! Very Childish! It is the very embodiment of refusing to have any compromise even one that makes no difference to anyone. Also, see how AL actually defends this edit in the opening statement. It would have been a more convincing argument if AL said "okay, I made a mistake. Doesn't everyone?" (Indeed it can happen.) But no! He says 'The "damage" was a deliberate choice to use instead of {{{1}}} for a non-credited name'. (The problem is, if I did believe it was a deliberate choice, it would have been vandalism.)

Talk:List of The Big Bang Theory characters

AL contended above FC's presence in the discussion was minor. But what he didn't say was that the so-called discussion didn't deal much with the treatment of the dispute and was mostly exchange of incivilities. Mainly, he refused to get the point, especially, when had no answer for the objections registered. Lying was his modus operandi and assuming good faith or the will to negotiate was non-existent. FC didn't do good there either; not participating in uncivil discussions is good but it is not dispute resolution. WP:DRN and WP:RFC were the avenues that he must have tried. Most importantly, none of them properly explored the avenue of alternatives to resolve their dispute. In fact, I did that. But I shouldn't flatter myself.

Perhaps the most important thing that AL did in that discussion was one particularly nasty comment that forever shattered any hope of having good relations with FC. FC implemented a particular form of compromise that I had proposed and asked whether it is edit warring. Naturally, yes and no are both wrong answers. So, instead I resorted to invoking a certain event in which one editor reverted another 56 times in the same day, under the supervision of six admins, and was one of the most peaceful and constructive wiki-cooperations I ever had encountered. (FYI, it was a WP:FACR speedy resolution, if you are wondering what that could be!) I was hoping that this memory will forever erase any thought of further dispute from FC's mind by showing that no matter what, a collegial discussion is more worthy than any outcome of it. It didn't, because AL came along and posted a comment that showed that he would simply go to any length to fight FC just for the hell of it. AL could have just shut up and enjoy the outcome, but no! He must poke the sleeping hellhound. Eventually, I switched to instant messaging (IM) and convinced FC to end this whole inferno with revision #629673768.

User talk:FleetCommand § BRD

Well, here AL is wrong, plain and simple! He is not assuming good faith; otherwise, BRD is followed perfectly. FC said "I did a B. You partially reverted, especially the scope part. That's an R. I consented, matter closed." In the opening statement, AL has described this as an instance of WP:OWN because he assumes bad faith. But in reality, this sentence is saying "I liked your revert; we have a consensus". For all I know, this could have been what I and one of my esteemed colleagues do, except without the talk page showdown and without the ANI.

Final comment

I see two editors; one who starts a potentially troublesome discussion with a discuss-first approach and is mature enough to say "I humbly apologize"; another editor who cannot even confess that he made a slight mistake (which everybody does every now and then) and must interfere in a topic that he knows nothing about just to incite more hatred and combat. Can I really be mad at the first one?

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 01:45, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Codename Lisa presents what is best described as an unrealistic and severely distorted view of events:

"I was aware that AL is misinforming FC," - No, that's not true. I was informing FC what was normal practice, even citing examples. I actually doubt that claim as Codename Lisa was not involved until I posted on FleetCommand's talk page, well over a month after FleetCommand attacked me at mine.

"What he didn't mention – TParis, I hope you are reading this – was that FC apologized almost immediately." - That's also not true at all. FC called me scatterbrained, and was challenged by Cyphoidbomb. FleetCommand then tried to justify his incivility by arguing that it would have been more uncivil not to because it would be relevant at RfA. (If you can understand that you are better than me!) Meanwhile, I was still carrying on a conversation with FleetCommand, and other editors on my talk page. From the time that FleetCommand was first uncivil to the "apology", (note this edit summary) NINE days elapsed. In that time he made 25 other edits. That's not even in the realm of the realm next to "almost immediately"!

"AL does not seem much bothered by this brief exchange at that time" - No, I was bothered by it but I chose to ignore it, other than making a single comment.

"Please correct me if I am wrong but the opening statement by AL is purely ad hominem because its purpose seems to be to hurt, to threaten or to get even" - Yes, you're wrong. I saw fit to post because of yet another of FleetCommand's uncivil/NPA edit summaries. His attitude towards other editors is far too agressive and clearly needed to be reminded of the ramifications.

"When I tried to calm both down and said "discuss the content, not the people"; FC replied "let's do it" while AL replied "don't throw NPA at me"!" - Rubbish. What you actually said is here and my response was this. I did not say "don't throw NPA at me" until you had persistently attacked me for daring to take umbrage at FleetCommand's uncivil/NPA edit summaries. You have persistently said "discuss the content, not the people", but then you do exactly that yourself.

"AL contended above FC's presence in the discussion was minor. But what he didn't say was that the so-called discussion didn't deal much with the treatment of the dispute and was mostly exchange of incivilities." - Because of Lisa's own aggressive actions at FleetCommand's talk page I withdrew from the page and tried to continue a discussion there. That discussion seemed to be productive up until this post (ignoring FleetCommand's bogus sockpuppetry claim) but then Codename Lisa decided to continue her attacks from FleetCommand's page. She could easily have omitted the last paragraph of her post but instead, once again, decided to question my "questionable past conduct". since then I've had to ask her more than once to keep on topic. However, even attempting to keep the focus on editors off the page, has not been successful.

"because AL came along and posted a comment that showed that he would simply go to any length to fight FC just for the hell of it" - More rubbish. All I did was copy what Misplaced Pages:Edit warring actually said in response to an off-topic discussion that should have been conducted on FleetCommand or Codename Lisa's talkpage, or via IM, instead of continong to drag the discussion off-topic.

There is plenty more of Codename Lisa's post that warrants comment because it is blantantly and verifiably incorrect, but I'm sure nobody wants to read it. Ironically, the one thing that FleetCommand and I do agree on is that her presence at the article has not been helpful. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:44, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I too disagree with Lisa's claim that FC almost immediately apologized. FC's first reaction was to downplay the insult against Aussie by pretending he was insulting Aussie for Aussie's own good. It wasn't until 9 days after the insult that FC struck it out with a "Whatever..." edit summary, then apologized. I also disagree with Lisa's claim that my language was incivil. I described the insult (not Fleet the individual) as "shit" (which I felt it was) and as "irritating as fuck" to read (which I felt it was). I described Fleet's attempt to backpedal on the insult as "crap" and "sub-adult", the latter of which is no different from Lisa's "Childish! Very Childish!" language above. That said, after Lisa accused me of "grossly" insulting Fleet, I apologized to Fleet Command because I hoped that doing so might help repair some of this damage between he and Aussie. I stand by the apology and still hope that it helps. I absolutely do not see eye-to-eye with Lisa on this matter, though. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

You are right: "Almost immediately" is struck out. I meant to write something along the lines of having happened relatively early in the timeline of the whole incident. Sorry. Codename Lisa (talk) 05:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

"Early in the incident" is still somewhat misleading. There are two parts to the "incident" and his apology wasn't until the very end of the first part, after which there were 22 days of peace before he started again. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:50, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The correct phrase is "almost immediately after spotting the thread". I was absent for 9 days (no edits on 9th through 16th) and when I came back I tended to my watchlist from top to bottom, so yes, naturally I didn't see it before I made some (25?) edits. Although I don't know about Australian English, here, "Whatever..." is an interjection of dismissal which I used to dismiss my old "scatterbrained" comment. Of course, striking out that comment was an emergency action. I needed time to re-study everything and measure exactly what to write. (One forgets a lot in 9 days.) It took 32 minutes.

"Early in the incident" is also correct: "Early" is relative; CL has illustrated four stages. It occurred on stage 1 out of 4, so yes, it was early. Fleet Command (talk) 12:13, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

"Spotting the thread"? What, you didn't realise the thread existed, even after you'd been posting in it? Why couldn't you have apologised before you disappeared, or not have posted the insult at all? It's all well and good that you eventually apologised, but you shouldn't have been uncivil in the first place, and you know that. You then went and undid the effect that you apology may have had with this post. You've just made it worse by acknowledging here that working through your watchlist was more important than apologising.
"striking out that comment was an emergency action" - If it had really been an emergency you would have done it before going through your watchlist. You knew that you'd been uncivil before you absented yourself. You didn't need a watchlist to tell you that and after striking out your edit with "whatever" you went off and made 5 other edits before returning. You're clearly making excuses here but they're transparent. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:00, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Disclaimers: 1) Personal involvement with AussieLegend and 2) I only skimmed through (way too much to bother reading thoroughly) this and Talk:List of The Big Bang Theory characters and List of The Big Bang Theory characters revision history and their talk pages' histories.
That said, skimming through this AussieLegend seems to just confirm my first impressions of him: If he can't convince someone with the first few instant reverts, which he is convinced he is correct in doing (which may or may not be true), he will then start "explaining" – often quite convincingly. If somebody reads through what he wrote and manages to finds "errors" and it gets pointed out where in his initial revert reasoning he might be wrong, he will not admit it, but keep on digging deeper into the hole, or if possible, find other policy violations (which may or may not be correct) and dig another second hole. Repeat these steps for as long as necessary.
My impression of FleetCommand is that he maybe seems to get a bit too heated (maybe) too fast, and sometimes too blunt and direct choice of words for the other person's taste. But when he cools down he can admit if he actually did something wrong. But if it doesn't get pointed out he did wrong, he will also stubbornly continue until convinced otherwise.
Make the discussion long enough and the other part usually just can't be bothered any more and gives up. Except if they both are equally stubborn. Just my short biased opinion based after briefly looking/skimming through. -Hekseuret (talk) 11:08, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

It's true, I do try to explain. That's part of the process but, try as I might, sometimes the other person just doesn't want to listen. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I wish I could say you don't listen too, but it wouldn't be entirely true. You just straight out ignore what others say if you have it in your mind it is incorrect. -Hekseuret (talk) 12:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring by FleetCommand at WP:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 28

This link stated, "...(3) as per WP:TPO notice of change is needed)".  FC reverted without inserting a WP:TPO comment, while the objection shown in the edit summary could have been handled via the talk page.  The revert, while not 3RR edit-warring, was the out-of-control aggressive behavior restricted by WP:Edit warring.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:44, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

And that close has subsequently been undone. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:08, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong forum. Closure is already discussed in WP:ANB. Edit warring must be discussed in WP:AN3. No one is supposed to edit a closed discussion. Doing this compromises the integrity of closure and makes the closing person look like a complete fool. Also digging dirt on other people only makes the dirt digger look bad. WP:NOTBATTLE, so cut it out. 46.62.142.76 (talk) 07:41, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

This all goes to presenting an overall picture of the editor's behaviour. You can't draw lines and say "talk about this bit here, that bit over there and that bit over there". All of the different aspects overlap. If we were to go to each specific forum to address each specific aspect, we'd be accused of gaming the system. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:49, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The point by the IP was that you don't edit closed/archived discussions. If you disagree about a closure you find other ways to bring up your disagreement. -Hekseuret (talk) 12:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The point by the IP was that you don't edit closed/archived discussions. If you disagree about a closure you find other ways to bring up your disagreement. -Hekseuret (talk) 12:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Closed discussions are routinely edited, so your knowledge or lack thereof is consistent

Which is exactly the point of my post, Fleet Command should not have used editor warring

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Unscintillating (talk • contribs) 01:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

@@FleetCommand:: Don't feed divas. Use WP:DR. 95.141.20.196 (talk) 12:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Note that an editor has removed a template, diff, without leaving a notice of the change in the discussion.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• The edit comment for the removal argues that the above post by 46.62.142.76 "is not arguing in favor of either of the participants".  By inspection, the above comment has told Aussie Legend to "cut it out".  The above comment further advocates that administrators are required to disregard evidence of Fleet Command's edit warring because this forum is not WP:3RR.  I submit that this comment is partial, not impartial; therefore the edit comment by Codename Lisa, claiming the neutrality of 46.62.142.76, is not verified.  46.62.142.76 and Codename Lisa are partial.  Administrators have been provided evidence of edit warring.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Artificial Intelligence and the RFC over the lede.

I don't know if this is the right place for this, but could some experienced editors please look at Talk:Artificial intelligence?

Basically, there was a dispute over whether or not the lede should describe the field as trying to make "human-like" software.

• A user called an RFC.
• User User:FelixRosch started edit waring to include a template-breaking "disclamer" that he didn't think the RFC was created by an impartial editor.
• (An experienced editor warned him not to do this..)
• It started to become clear that the RFC would not arrive at the conclusion FelixRosch wanted.

Now, users User:Robert McClenon and User:FelixRosch have prematurely closed the RFC to form their own, private two-person agreement on the issue. Of course, User:FelixRosch is edit waring to keep it closed.

Thanks. APL (talk) 22:06, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I closed the RFC, after its wording had been changed and after discussion of other ways to word it, with the understanding that User:FelixRosch would open a different wording of the RFC that he thought was neutral. At this point, since there doesn't seem to be agreement as to how an RFC should be written to address the question of the wording of the lede sentence, moderated dispute resolution may be a better answer. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:44, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The OP forgot to notify the two parties. I have notified User:FelixRosch. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:47, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Appreciation to editors to pointing me to this notideboard since @APL did not do this. My understanding is that @Robert McClenon currently has successfully made a 5 (five) editor consensus upon his closing the RfC following the "Steelpillow" consensus edit on Talk. User @APL has not notified me of this noticeboard and has misrepresented the total number of 5 editors in the consensus. The consensus of 5 editors was established by @Robert McClenon with the following offer which consensus I joined, with @Robert McClennon currently holding the 5 editor consensus as follows:

@Robert McClennon: You appear to be saying that of the 4 options from various editors which I listed above as being on the discussion table, that you have a preference for version (d) by Steelpillow, and that you are willing to remove the disputed RfC under the circumstance that the Steeltrap version be posted as being a neutral version of the edit. Since I accept that the editors on this page are in general of good faith, then I can stipulate that if (If) you will drop this RfC by removing the template, etc, that I shall then post the version of Steeltrap from 3 October on Talk in preference to the Qwerty version of 1 October. The 4 paragraph version of the Lede of Qwerty will then be posted updated with the 3 October phrase of Steelpillow ("...whether human-like or not") with no further amendations. It is not your version and it is not my version, and all can call it the Steelpillow version the consensus version. If agreed then all you need do is close/drop the RfC, and then I'll post the Steelpillow version as the consensus version. FelixRosch (talk) 17:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done - Your turn. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done Installing new 4 paragraph version of Lede following terms of close-out by originating Editor RobertM and consensus of 5 editors. It is the "Steelpillow" version of the new Lede following RfC close-out on Talk. FelixRosch (talk) 19:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

After he joined the Steelpillow consensus to form a consensus of 4 editors, @Robert McClenon had invited me to joined the consensus which I did do, and he at this moment holds the 5 editor consensus. He offered to close the RfC first, and I offered to post his endorsement of the Steelpillow edit in return, and he held me to these terms. Both of these were done, the RfC was closed by RobertM and I posted the Steelpillow edit as promised in the above. The RfC was closed by the author of the RfC and the Steelpillow version posted in the Lede following the consensus of 5 editors. FelixRosch (talk) 14:47, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

FelixRosch has been slow edit-warring on this article, pushing a perspective that is not backed up by the literature. Notice the absence of sources. .

Reasoned and sourced responses from other users get ignored, misrepresented or a curveball. There is very little effort to build consensus.

More Rosch drama (and there's more on other subjects unrelated to artificial intelligence)

I haven't seen an editor single-handedly create this much drama in all my time on Misplaced Pages. Pretty impressive for an editor contributing for less than a year. pgr94 (talk) 01:10, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

@Pgr94 Please do not make fun of two editors who have been involved in good faith discussion for over a month by singling out your favorite dozen or so one-line comments from a very long discussion. There is no reason for you to make fun of RobertM either for making the first genuine progress in the discussion by establishing a consensus edit of 5 editors by his closing his RfC for the benefit of the first 5 editor consensus edit in over a month. FelixRosch (talk) 14:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch: reverted to close the RFC prematurely yet again (2014-10-18T15:01:47) just after his response here (2014-10-18T14:47:52). I have waited some time in the hope that there would be a response to this request for assistance. Since there has been no response yet, so I have reopened the RFC myself. We really need admin intervention here (whether to allow the RFC to complete without further disruption or otherwise), so will someone please respond. --Mirokado (talk) 03:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Undid revision 630191794 You appear to be edit warring against a 5 editor consensus for an RfC closed by the originating author RobertM. Please stop WP:EW and WP:3RR. Your next edit puts you over 3RR and your Talk page is posted for WP:EW because of your reverts against the consensus of 5 editors. You have not even tried one single time to contact RobertM concerning the established consensus or anyone else to try to make consensus. RobertM has made genuine progress for a discussion over a month long for the first time by establishing a consensus of 5 editors. You have been invited to seek consensus in the section below it on Talk:Artificial Intelligence and you have refused. Please stop edit warring and please follow Misplaced Pages policy and procedures for establishing consensus before you edit. FelixRosch (talk) 14:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Unrelated edit from editors who do not know the difference between the words "to" and "too", twice in one edit.

Time for action here ....this Felix person competences has been called into question to many times to believe that anything will ever change with the behaviour Getting tedious to say the least. Getting reverted 90 percent of the time then edit waring over those edits would lead any normal editor to conclude Felix simply doesn't get it!! To many editors have wasted there time with this guy already. I dont think English is the editor primary language. -- Moxy (talk) 15:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Participation by Admin Dreadstar in edit war at The Federalist (website) AFTER fully protecting the article

I wrote the following before becoming aware of the ANI report almost immediately above ((since archived)), but it is in any case a separate issue. Dreadstar wtites there, "I've fully protected the article due to edit warring. I've also removed the material identified as a potential BLP violation. Work it out on the article talk page. Dreadstar ☥ 23:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)" But this is not ok. You don't get to win edit wars and delete what you want merely by alleging a BLP vio. Some consideration must be given to whether the allegation is simply gaming the system.

I went to look at this article after not editing it for some time, and was not shocked to discover that it was protected again. What I was a bit shocked by was this edit by the protecting administrator, immediately after the protection. I had consulted a previous protecting administrator, HJ Mitchell, about scare quotes added by a third administrator, drmies, to this article which HJ Mitchell had placed under full protection, and was assured that " on a protected page as if it were not protected] is definitely out... Adminship is about enacting (and sometimes enforcing) consensus and, by extension, policy (which is a codification of policy). Admins shouldn't act unilaterally, and they have to respect full protection like anyone else. So they can make edits requested on the talk page that have consensus or are uncontroversial (eg typo fixes), and they can remove serious policy violations (copyvios, I would say it would have to be a serious BLP violation, vandalism, and other serious issues), but they shouldn't just edit through protection as though it wasn't there, even though they have the technical ability."

But here admin Dreadstar removes the disputed material from the page AFTER fully protecting it, with the comment, "BLP has been invoked, take it to the talk page". But of course HJ Mitchell had assured me that BLP had not merely to be "invoked", but there had to be a clear and serious violation for an admin to take sides. In this case the material (on Neil deGrasse Tyson's "misquote" of GWBush) is fully cited and had been on the page in substantially similar form, except when briefly removed during edit wars, for a considerable time and is substantiated by Tyson's admission of the mistake.

I brought this up with HJ Mitchell, and he pointed to WP:PREFER's statement that, "administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists", otherwise declining to get involved again. But that can't be right: The Tyson material has been on the page, in substantially similar form, far longer than the coatrack of anti-Federalist material that is now the sole text content of the protected page. It has been off the page briefly during edit wars and when protection happened to catch it off the page, but the current version is in no way "an old version of the page predating the edit war".

Can I here get a recommendation that Dreadstar self-revert? Andyvphil (talk) 23:15, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG 2607:FB90:704:938C:C9D:4B21:F6A3:A960 (talk) 02:36, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

What is the meaning of this obscurity? Andyvphil (talk) 08:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I feel the right thing was done per WP:HARM. Consensus is not clear if the material goes against WP:BLP yet, so rather than going on like it does and it is okay to include the information it is best to air on the side of caution here and keep it removed. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:00, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Dreadstar did not "keep it removed". He took affirmative action to remove the contested material. THAT is why I am here.

So-called "erring on the side of caution" has, as I noted, the effect of freezing the article on "The Federalist" in the state of being a straight attack piece on its subject. The attempt to delete this article, as well as keep any mention of Tyson's inventive way with the truth out of Misplaced Pages has received significant negative coverage in the conservative press, enhancing Misplaced Pages's reputation as a partisan environment. The attempt to delete this article failed BrD, but this gaming of the system has the effect of handing the failing side in that debate the result they wanted. Further, there at least was a tradition on Misplaced Pages of editors instituting page protection leaving the article in the state they found it rather than involving themselves in the content dispute, absent a clear policy violation. Failing to seriously engage the question of whether such a policy violation exists before giving one side of such a debate what it wants has serious costs. Andyvphil (talk) 06:41, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Good-faith invocations of BLP are generally to be supported; The Federalist is not a living person and is not subject to the same protections as actual people. If you think the article would be best completely stubbed, blown up and started over again, that's probably worth offering as a suggestion. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:47, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, good-faith invocations of BLP are generally to be supported. The question is what to do about determined bad-faith or obtuse invocations of BLP. See WP:GAME. Is your suggestion that I have adopted a position opposite to the one I expressed in the BrD based on anything I have said? Andyvphil (talk) 07:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

No comment on this particular issue, but reality has a well-known liberal bias and Misplaced Pages reflects reality. --NE2 07:08, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The reality in this case is that there is no BLP issue with informing Misplaced Pages readers of The Federalist 's page of its success in bringing attention to Tyson's inventions. Somehow the liberal bias of this particular bit of reality has escaped the attention of the apparently "liberal" would-be censors, as they otherwise would presumably not be so anxious to make sure that in this case Misplaced Pages does not reflect reality. Feel free to inform yourself on this issue before again attempting to hijack this section. Your smugness is noted, but not helpful. Andyvphil (talk) 08:08, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Support indefinite block on reality. Facts are funny things, known unknowns, welcomed as liberators, mission accomplished, etc. Viriditas (talk) 09:01, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I confess I have no idea what that's intended to mean, although an indefinite block on reality is exactly what I'm being forced to combat.

Despite my pinging you you have not chosen to respond to my inquiry about what you meant when you said, I think, that Obsidi had been "previously corrected" in objecting to the misleading "1RR warnings" you leave on others' talk pages. Is that your final decision? Andyvphil (talk) 09:16, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

"Please be mindful of edit warring on the Tyson article due to the new WP:NEWBLPBAN discretionary sanctions. It will be best to limit yourself to WP:1RR and let the other editor get blocked or topic banned." What part of that statement is misleading? Obsidi was corrected on this point in another discussion, now I would like the opportunity to correct you. Viriditas (talk) 10:01, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. I will take this up further at the target of your link, i.e. Talk:NDG (and not, unfortunately, your "correction" of Obsidi, which is what I would still like), since I will be referring to material there. Andyvphil (talk) 11:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Let me say this again, I did NOT say that you stated that 1RR was a part of WP:NEWBLPBAN, just that it could have been mistaken to think so for someone who didnt know WP:NEWBLPBAN. You are stating it as if the other editor would get banned for violating 1RR and so you should avoid it. Now I am NOT claiming that Viriditas should be sanctioned for misrepresenting ArbCom, what you said was not incorrect. I just said it so that next time you might want to think about clarifying the fact that 1RR is not a part of WP:NEWBLPBAN so more people don't get confused. (And other then yourself "correcting" me, I have not been "corrected", and I stand by what I said) If you do need to notify someone that discretionary sanctions apply, you can use: {{Ds/alert}} or in this case {{subst:alert|blp}} --Obsidi (talk) 14:47, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh and I wish if you guys start talking about me by name on this board, I ask that you ping me next time. --Obsidi (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

"Ping" is an invention post-dating my last active interest in Misplaced Pages. I apologize for not mentioning that I had inquired of Virditas what he had said to you when I linked to here on your talk page. I'm still trying to find out if he was told then that his warnings were misleading. Andyvphil (talk) 04:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

What I wrote does not in any way imply that "the other editor would get banned for violating 1RR". Per the applicable sanctions, editors must "comply with all applicable policies and guidelines" and "follow editorial and behavioral best practice". That especially applies to edit warring. Self-imposed 1RR helps avoid coming under such sanctions. Viriditas (talk) 01:14, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

This seems like a trumped up version of "the admin protected the wrong revision". It's perfectly acceptable to remove a COATRACK allegation (to which the article owes its existence in a discussion many of us are now wishing ended differently) on the basis of BLP and protect the article. Protonk (talk) 15:08, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:COATRACK is an essay, not policy, and even if the article were that it would not be proper for an administrator to "fix" that problem as part of the protection process. Absent a policy violation requiring immediate address (and COATRACK is obviously not that) it is completely inappropriate for a protecting admin to "fix" the text for quality -- he can revert to a stable version prior to the edit war, if it exits (as I mention above) or just leave what's on the page undisturbed. This used to be widely understood. When did it become controversial?

Dreadstar didn't "protect the wrong version". He protected the version that existed... then CREATED another. Andyvphil (talk) 04:28, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Close this Actual WP:BLP issue or not, admins are given wide discretion to enforce BLP on questionable cases. There are enough editors and reasonable information available to determine that reverting contested BLP information from the article is acceptable. The only argument is whether the material actually is a BLP violation or not. That has no impact at all on Dreadstar's revert. The fact that it is being discussed justifies his actions. Therefore, take the discussion to the talk page, gain consensus, and then restore the material.--v/r - TP 05:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
• Agree with Knowledgekid87 and TParis that removal was correct (controversial BLP content pending discussion). It sounds like there is a legitimate dispute about whether it's a WP:BLP violation. It might not be, and eventual discussion might find consensus that it's not (leading to re-adding it within a few days), but the case for it being problematic is not obviously nonsense and I don't see prior consensus that it should be included. BLP policy clearly gives very high priority to avoiding harm to LPs, so we should favor removing the material for now (avoiding harm to LP, at the lesser cost of the remaining content being claimed unbalanced against a non-LP). DMacks (talk) 05:23, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
• Whatever anyone's behavioral or edit warring issues, this an inappropriate use of tools. It undermines confidence in the neutrality of admins, or their respect for the content decisions of the community. - Wikidemon (talk) 04:31, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Re, "Whatever anyone's behavioral or edit warring issues...", let me repeat: I discovered this protection and edit after coming to the project page after some time away from it. I was not involved it the edit war that prompted the protection. Andyvphil (talk) 08:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:PROT says "When protecting a page because of a content dispute, administrators normally protect the current version, except where the current version contains content that clearly violates content policies..." It is accepted practice to remove policy violations from a protected page. Chillum 04:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Chillum, for finding the guidance policy I vaguely remembered, as recited above. But it doesn't support your conclusion. @Dreadstar: did not purport to conclude that the then-current "version contain content that clearly violate content policies". As I quote him above, he said the exact opposite: "I've also removed the material identified as a potential BLP violation."(emphasis added). Hopefully, he will come here and clarify this. Andyvphil (talk) 08:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Unless I missed something there is no policy violation that has been established, much less clearly so. Indeed, as far as I can tell well-established editors are arguing in good faith on both sides. So it boils down to an admin enforcing their view on a disputed content matter using admin tools. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:57, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I admit the case is not entirely clear cut. I can however imagine Dread was confident it was a clear violation at the time he/she made the edit. While the validity of the edit can be disputed I don't think there was an abuse of admin tools here. Chillum 06:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, you can imagine "Dread was confident it was a clear violation", but see my response to you above. Andyvphil (talk) 08:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, not abuse. Perhaps hasty use. When editors are debating whether an issue legitimately invokes BLP, best to hear it out. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

"...best to hear it out"? Meaning what, in this context? I am, sincerly, not understanding what you're saying.

If not abuse, clear error if Dreadstar made no attempt to evaluate the alleged policy violation, as he seems to say?

I've noticed him, and later pinged him, but he's failed to show up. This appears to be a violation of WP:ADMINACCT.

The protection is expiring, but I don't believe this moots the question of the propriety of his actions, absent a promise not to do it again. Which I would accept. Andyvphil (talk) 23:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Ihardlythinkso continues to violate interaction ban

(Was re-opened by Giano)

Was then reclosed by Spartaz Blocked for two weeks. Spartaz 09:07, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

(and reopened)

There was a violation of an interaction ban, a block was handed out. Who reported it is not an issue. Unlike a community ban discussion there is no need for an extended debate, this is a clear cut case and seems resolved. Chillum 15:34, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I really don't like to do this, but this is a clear, willful and blatant violation of the interaction ban between Ihardlythinkso and me. What was he even thinking? Obviously there is another side to the story with regard to the narrative he presents there, but you probably don't give a damn so I won't go into it unless you request further information. The pertinent point here is that the interaction ban has been explained to him in unambigmous terms on several occasions, yet he continues to violate it. This is the fourth violation. MaxBrowne (talk) 08:01, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

No, no, no: we don't archive a debate within minutes ; especially when a hasty block has taken place . This place becomes dafter by the second. Giano (talk) 08:20, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

There's no debate. The topic ban was unambiguously violated, and a block was applied in keeping with the ban. Keeping this thread open is what's daft. Enjoy! Doc talk 08:24, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for two weeks. Spartaz 09:07, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The link provided does not mention "Max Browne," only a wiki dispute resolution board insider would know that's who IHTS was referring to. MB's monitoring of IHTS's contributions looking for violations is as much the cause of the disruption as IHTS's comments. Now, would someone please unblock IHTS? NE Ent 11:31, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Would that you were as forgiving with me as with IHTS, who was clearly violating a topic ban. Nothing against IHTS as such. But topic bans must be enforced against all violators, not just against users you don't like. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:12, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

This has a bad taste to it. It would have been better if another editor had made this report. GoodDay (talk) 12:24, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

What's the right way for user A to report it when user B violates their interaction ban? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:14, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

GoodDay You're correct. The comments he made didn't specify who he was talking about, so no it wasn't obvious that he was breaching his IBAN, nor was he posting on Maxs page, nor actually "Interacting" with him in anyway. however, since the IBAN concerned MaxBrowne, it could be argued that MaxBrowne violated his IBAN for sure. I'd say Ihardlythinkso needs to be unblocked, this was hasty and not obviously an IBAN. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

There is only one person who IHTS references with the line "classic narcisist" so its oblique yet specific reference. I had spotted it yesterday but I was hoping he would retract it prior to someone bringing it up on ANI. Unfortunately that did not happen. Tivanir2 (talk) 13:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Offering cures to Ebola at the Ref Desk

Users User:Wnt and User:Aspro have decided that we should be offering links to unreferenced cures to Ebola at the reference desk, and have reverted hatting of such material. This is not only in violation of WP:RS it's in violation of Misplaced Pages:General Disclaimer. The material should be deleted, and the editors admonished, if not blocked for obvious violations of WP policy. μηδείς (talk) 21:14, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Cures? More like comments on the observance of good hygiene practices. The question of references on WP articles vs Ref Desk has come up before. The sun will rise tomorrow- do I need to add a reference to that? Yet μηδείς (who until very recently, has added some very good contribution) recently added Nitrous oxide works largely as an asphyxiant, and regularly kills those such as dentists who abuse it. Google laughing gas death. μηδείς (talk) 20:30, 17 October 2014 (UTC) . I would have thought that that needed a reference, as I myself have had more than one tooth extraction with nitrous oxide and that is not how it works. Oxygen is given with nitrous oxide to prevent hypoxia. Is the pot calling all the other kettles black? This editors appear to have changed of late and wants everybody to dance to thier tune.--Aspro (talk) 22:00, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

My response to this is at . My sources are in my original comment as linked in the unhatting above. To claim that I "violated WP:RS", let alone the General Disclaimer (!) seems very peculiar. The purpose of this discussion should be to encourage people to think about the question and try to bring relevant sources and concepts to bear on it, and I think I've done so. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

• Here are a few thousand Google hits on Nitrous Oxide suffocation: . Here are zero hits on curing Ebola with fossils: . This unreferenced and unreferenceable bee ess needs to be hatted, and I suggest an admin do so. Misplaced Pages:General Disclaimer μηδείς (talk) 00:02, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• It seems that the CDC's Preparedness 101: Zombie Apocalypse program missed the problem of editing wars breaking out on Misplaced Pages. Count Iblis (talk) 03:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• The OP on that question asked about some quack remedy for ebola. We don't need Misplaced Pages's ref desk being cited as a potential source for such misinformation. The question had been answered, namely that there is no remedy proven so far, except treating the symptoms and letting the immune system take over. There was nothing else to say about it, and no reason to keep it open. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• I think Medeis has built a nice straw man here. The word "cure" only appears where Bugs says there isn't one. Wnt was just generally offering related scientific findings, without making any claims of cures. Aspro's response was mostly about disinfectants and information access, and made in response to questions about bleach. There's clearly no false "cure" for Ebola being offered there. Aspro's repsonse did seem slightly WP:SOAPy to me by bringing up the cost of cruise missiles, though I see that as a very minor issue that doesn't need investigation (I also happen to agree with the sentiment re:missiles, so that might bias my interpretation of how serious the potential SOAP issue is :) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• The information at issue here, while somewhat speculative, was appropriate and well-cited. No "cures" were offered or promised. There was no reason to hat the thread. The stated reason for hatting, "medical something", proves that there was no reason to hat the thread. We have a well-defined and well-applied prohibition against offering medical advice. We have no prohibition against discussing medical information. —Steve Summit (talk) 15:31, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be interesting enough to know if I created this strawman--please do a checkuser on me--I mean it--but, can we please otherwise have an opinion by at least three uninvolved admins?

Is offering treatments for Ebola an appropriate function of the ref desk that doesn't violate Misplaced Pages:General disclaimer? "If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial or risk management) please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area."

Is there nothing one can't just make up there as fact? μηδείς (talk) 01:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

@Medeis: When I reverted your edit I urged you to discuss at the talk page, where this sort of thing has been done to death in the past. There are general refdesk guidelines, and there is a specific "Kainaw's criterion" that has generally served as the point of compromise. The gist of this is that there's a difference between diagnosing or recommending specific treatment for an individual person, and discussing the general state of biological knowledge. If we discuss whether garlic could protect against Ebola, or whether salt could cause cancer, or whether red meat could cause heart disease, or whether poke berries are poisonous, or whether coffee protects against diabetes, these things are not advice for an individual person, but general state of knowledge questions. Referring generally to the disclaimer for the entire site only adds confusion, since it suggests people looking for specific advice to go elsewhere but does not demand it. It should be very clear that the statement about financial advice does not prohibit readers from looking up the difference between a Roth and a traditional IRA, for example... even if using what our article says is potentially problematic. Wnt (talk) 04:39, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to support Wnt and Aspro here. The question asked fell clearly on the 'acceptable' side of "Kainaw's criterion" which has been the consensus bright-line criterion that must be crossed in order for a Ref Desk question to be considered to be a request for medical advice. Medeis' has a long history of hatting threads for seemingly personal reasons, using "justifications" that are more imaginary than any kind of Ref Desk policy - nearly everyone on the ref desk would love to see the back of this disruptive editor who has been the subject of many, many complaints in the past. Medeis' rants frequently stay beyond acceptable limits - most recently: . SteveBaker (talk) 05:05, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Hey, Medeis, you made a straw man out of my accusation that you made a straw man! You should get some points for that. That is, you misrepresented my claim that you were misrepresenting Wnt and Aspros contributions, by linking to hoax, not straw man - they are rather different things. I apologize if my usage was unclear, and perhaps I should have linked in my original comment. I certainly don't think you are making any hoax, just that the text responses in question do not offer "cures" for Ebola. To claim that they are is a misrepresentation of a position, aka a "straw man." But sure, we should here from disinterested/uninvolved admins, I too will be curious to see their input. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

New editor making usual edits to political party categories. Sock?

New editor Huge456 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who's first edit was to change an infobox photo, has been adding entertainers to political party categories if the entertainer has ever even mentioned support for the party, and even if they have since disavowed that support. Examples: at Gary Numan's bio and Tracey Emin's bio. Huge456 justifies these edits by referencing inclusion criteria that they added to the category itself here ("Past and present members or supporters of the Conservative Party (UK)"). In the case of Gary Numan; he has specifically disavowed support for the Conservative Party ("...there was a Scottish newspaper that ran a big feature that had me down as Conservative, which was an absolute bloody lie."), making Huge456's three insertions WP:BLP violations. I have tried to explain to Huge456 why this is a problem.

The editor seems WP:PRECOCIOUS, and engages in edit warring and other conduct reminiscent of user Goredog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was blocked by Callanecc for similar behavior. Notice also the bracket bot warning on both user's talk pages, and the swapping of infobox images. I don't have time now to investigate this thoroughly, but I wanted to see if anyone else thinks Huge456 might be a sock of a previous user. Thank you. - MrX 14:02, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The category clearly states that it is there for current and former supporters of the various parties, however I think it is a joke that you are trying to claim that I might be a sock because I am adding categories to articles, as any user can evidently see that you were the one who first started edit warring by reverting my editions. You say that because bracket bot has mentioned that I accidentally did not add a bracket to certain edits that means I'm a sock? I have just taken a look at various other editors talk pages and so far 5 of them have bracket bot mentioning that they have not added brackets, does this mean they are socks as well, no it does not! Swapping info box images, you mean I added a more recent and up to date image of someone however people disagreed with it because you could not see the face clear enough, does that make someone a sock puppet also, once again it does not! I can see that you are being quite petty be accusing me of various things, when all I have done is add a category to Gary Numan and you didn't agree. To claim i'm a sock because bracket bot has written on my talk page, as he has done with countless other users, is both ridiculous and absurd. I am honestly quite shocked by your behaviour and others who read your accusations will undoubtedly view your accusations as absurd. Huge456 (talk) 14:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The category name is Conservative Party (UK) people, which strongly suggests a link to the party itself, not merely a political support for conservative (small c) principles. The description was only extended to include "or supporters" by your edit.

The scope of this category needs to be clarified. I see a clear value to "party people" meaning a declared connection with the party. There could also be scope for "conservative supporters", although this is both different (likely a parent category) and also hard to validate per WP:BLP. It should have defined conditions set out clearly beforehand, as per the comments at talk:.

I don't much care whether "conservative supporters" is created or not, but it should not replace the separately notable "party people" category.

As to the issue at Tracey Emin and Gary Numan then we have to meet BLP first and foremost. There is a source at Emin that says she claims to have voted Conservative (and claims no more than that). That is not adequate alone to include here in either of these categories: it could equally be said of millions of UK voters and probably thousands of notable UK BLP subjects. I don't believe a category framed to be quite so wide would have any encyclopedic value. A category of "Famous household names who voted Conservative" would also fail WP:SYNTH.

We have sourcing to say "Emin voted Conservative". It may be true that Emin is a prominent supporter of conservative politics, but we would have to additionally source that. To say that she is "Conservative party people" we'd have to both show a connection (not merely support) to that level and also sourcing of this to meet WP:BLP. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:14, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that this edit by the user shows a worrying wp:POV trait, by a user who also seems to shun wp:RSs and wp:ESs (except when he's giving his/her point of view). Also, it's dubious behaviour to remove warnings from one's own user talk page. Trafford09 (talk) 16:33, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Your last sentence is contrary to policy and I suggest you strike it. WP:REMOVED: "Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. The removal of material from a user page is normally taken to mean that the user has read and is aware of its contents. There is no need to keep them on display and usually users should not be forced to do so." --Obsidi (talk) 16:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I take your point, Obsidi, but I think my point is still worth keeping, as it may help others detect if Huge456's MO is similar to others'. S/he could have left the warnings or archived them but - counter to WP's preferred course - simply deleted them. I was careful not to say that this is scorned, as I knew the policy to which you rightly refer. The user might have used the warning to argue his/her case, in constructive & AGF-inducing spirit, but chose otherwise. Trafford09 (talk) 17:55, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Users are free to delete anything they want to from their talk pages, provided they don't selectively delete and hence distort the picture; or if they've filed an unblock request that was rejected, it has to stay on their page until the block is done. The "preferred" way is nothing more than a recommendation. The user talk page history effectively serves as an archive. If you're looking for similar MO's, don't put too much weight on deletion instead of archiving, as many users do it that way. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Hero456 seems interested in UK politics, Goredog in US. Although the technique has similarities, I think two distinct targets for their efforts like this would be unusual in a sock. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:22, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

user:Nitramrekcap

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Indefinitely blocked editor Nitramrekcap appears to back to his old tricks at Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, as promised at User talk:Jimbo Wales in August: see here (BTW, membership of the PRB society does not in any way imply expertise. All you have to do is pay their extortionate £14 per annum fee). Special:Contributions/2.30.207.16 is editing with the same pattern. Paul B (talk) 15:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for block evasion, and some fairly disruptive editing. Euryalus (talk) 12:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Request to lift a hastily placed block

Per this incident , Ihardlythinkso was accused of violating his interaction ban between himself and the filer of the report MaxBrowne. First, the evidence given for IBAN is this edit . Ihardlythink so was blocked 12 minutes after this incident was reported, and while Ihardlythinkso and MaxBrowne are under an IBAN to be sure, this post doesn't give any indication that Ihardlythinkso is talking about MaxBrowne, although he refers to the IBAN itself. Further, this block is contested by Giano, Ne Ent , GoodDay and myself.

As there is no credible evidence that Ihardlythinkso was actually referring to MaxBrowne, I would request an unblock. Obviously, no investigation can be made as to whether or not MaxBrowne actually broke the IBAN by actually referring to Ihardlythinkso, since this would be an exception to the ban. I have notified the above mentioned users about this posting, I have also notified blocking sysop Spartaz and closing sysop Chillum. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 20:01, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. The posting "doesn't give any indication that Ihardlythinkso is talking about MaxBrowne"? Bollocks. He was talking about him, as was crystal-clear from his description of that specific incident – anybody who remembers the incident knows that it was M.B. who was the other party in it. Whether he names the name is completely irrelevant. People who knew the event (and there are many of them out there) know who he meant. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose It was clear that the person who was referred to was MaxBrowne. There is also evidence that this is a repeat offense. - Knowlegekid87 (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
• on the subject of hasty! don't you think it's a bit hasty to raise this here before having a discussion with me first or does your AGF not extend to admins? Spartaz 20:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose(I was one of the closers) This was already reviewed and was also closed by 3 different administrators(including myself) with the same conclusion. If the matter is not apparent to you then it is likely because you are not familiar with the case.

  It was not hasty because it was not a ban discussion, it was a case of administrative discretion based on an already existing ban. There is no need to have a protracted debate when the conclusion is obvious to the acting admin.

  There was also a similar incident where IHTS was warned that this sort of gaming would not excuse him. Chillum 20:44, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• I am going to ping @Doc9871: as this admin also closed the discussion. Chillum 21:09, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Please don't make unsupported statements about about other editors, Doc9871 is not an admin NE Ent 22:22, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• I do not think Chillum knew that, it is common that editors close discussions but some have so many info-boxes it is hard to tell if they are admin or not. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• My mistake, thank you for pointing that out. Chillum 00:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm no admin and have never claimed to be one. Per IHTS:

"I am unable to tell any of the abusive treatments because any reference direct or indirect will be interpreted as IBAN violation with the offending user, who filed the AN request for IBAN immediately after the ANI closed where he used the abusive name-calls. So effectively now, I have a sock stuck down my throat, and am unable to voice any complaint about the incidents without receiving an escalated block."

Who here does not think that the one "who filed the AN request for IBAN immediately after the ANI closed" was Max Browne? Anyone? And is the "immediately" thing meant to throw suspicion on this "offending user" for filing it so quickly? It looks like it to me. Max Browne filed the request for IBAN, did he not? A thread that was then open for 8 days. It's quite obvious that IHTS fully knew he violated the IBAN when he said, "If WP:NPA policy can be ignored, allowing a user to repeatedly be abused with "classic narcissist" name-call, then please tell me a rational/reasonable argument why WP:IBAN policy is to be respected!" This thread is just wikilayering to get a buddy out of the trouble he made for himself. Doc talk 04:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• The IBAN prohibits discussing the other party, either directly or indirectly. You don't have to mention the other guy's name in order to have enforcement come down on you. When it's clear who the guy's talking about, to those familiar with the case, the IBAN has to be enforced. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:08, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware the Ban prohibits direct or indirect discussion. It's not clear that Max Browne is being discussed. Ihardlythinkso mentions his IBAN, but given no detail, nor really any indication that he's talking about MaxBrowne, bear in mind, I'm currently under a TBAN "Broadly Construed" so I'm well aware that a ban typically means no talk to or talking about whatever the subject of the ban is, anywhere on Misplaced Pages.

Also, I wasn't the sole user that objected, as I noted three others did as well. Spartaz , I've been down that road before. I've actually spoken with sysops and have had consensus in my favor only for the sysop to just flat ignore it, so I no longer think it's the thing to do, to be honest. I believe in consensus, and if consensus says you're fine, then so be it. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 21:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I am well aware of how bans go. If it's clear to those "in the know" that the ban was violated, then the violator and his buddies have to accept the block. Trying to wikilawyer around it is not acceptable. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I think this should be closed, it was already as pointed out by Chillum closed by 2 different admins, 3 after this. I think the WP:STICK should be dropped. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:35, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The easiest way to "drop the stick" is to stop arguing about the close, which is a practice thing, not any sort of policy. So, anyway, it's not unreasonable to conclude IHTS violated the ban because he mentioned the editor who called him a narcissist. However, the context of the comment was replying a post by Jimbo Wales (also an admin) following up a discussion on Wales' talk page, and the primary thrust of the comment was that an admin not-named-Max-Browne whom IHTS does not have an interaction ban with also called him a narcissist, so I don't see it as a violation, especially as IHTS did not mention MB by name. So perhaps a refactoring could have been asked for, or maybe a shorter block. Anyway, the most important thing is IHTS has not posted any sort of unblock request, so perhaps we should wait and see what he has to say about it. NE Ent 22:21, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of ways an editor can slip a hint about another editor hoping to draw attention to that person but thinking that it is not enough to get themselves caught. The point is that MaxBrowne picked something up in it. It could very well be a misunderstanding but seeing the evidence of past things like this that Ihardlythinkso has done It becomes harder to trust the editor. In addition 2 admin have weighed in on the matter and all have considered it a closed discussion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs I'm hardly one of Ihardlythinkso's buddies. He doesn't know me from a hole in the ground, to be quite honest, so if that comment was directed to me, it's not true and you should strike it. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 23:56, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't recall mentioning you by name. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support unblock - Much has been made of User talk: Jimbo Wales being a "community noticeboard" rather than an individual user talk page. Much like ANI; users go there to air their grievances, demand action, demand justice or otherwise opine for change. Of late, that has involved extensive interaction with Wales himself, subsequent to a demand (here) for an interaction ban between Wales and an editor. IHTS's comments should be seen in that context - ongoing discussion of an interaction ban proposal while he himself was subject to an interaction ban. He tried to give a full account of that ban in the context of that discussion and went as far as to describe certain things. Did he technically breach his ban in doing so? Yes. Does it serve any real purpose to block him for it? No, not really. Does anyone think MB's editing here was impacted by IHTS's giving an account of how the interaction ban came to be (in his view)? I... (sorry for this in advance) ...hardly think so. The issue here was the technical breach - there was no melodrama on MB's part. I don't think MB or the blocking admin were wrong (they called it as they saw it and I don't think it was "hasty") but a broader reading of this suggests a block is fairly pointless and obviously punitive rather than preventative. It also had the unintentional impact of disallowing IHTS's involvement at User talk: Jimbo Wales which, again, editors have come to accept as a legitimate venue for broader discussions. I suggest the block be limited to "time served". St★lwart 23:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• So you are saying he should get a get out of jail free card for breaking an interaction ban on Jimbo's page? No, it shouldn't be okay and it is not okay. I quote the WP:IBAN policy "make reference to or comment on editor Y anywhere on Misplaced Pages, whether directly or indirectly;". if you want to propose a change to the policy with "With an exception to Jimbo's talkpage" then feel free to do so. Jimbo's talkpage though is a part of Misplaced Pages just like all other user-pages are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

In fact the IBAN violation was made on IHTS's own talk page Want to think again? Spartaz 04:27, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, you're absolutely right - it was on his own talk page in response to a comment from Wales which was a continuation of an ongoing discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales. And I'm not suggesting an exemption or a get-out-of-jail free card. Only that it should be looked at in context. From memory, I supported the original IBAN, so I certainly endorse its enforcement. I just wonder what point it serves to enforce what looks like policy wonkery given the intention doesn't seem to have been to break the ban but to explain it. My question, which applies equally regardless of location, is whether he would have been blocked had he posted the same here in asking for the ban to be reviewed? I'm thinking possibly not. St★lwart 07:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Let me ask a silly question. If blocks are supposed to be to prevent disruption (not to punish bad behavior) and the disruption in question is a comment the user made on their own talk page, how is that goal achieved by blocking them from every page on Misplaced Pages, except for the one page where the disruption (allegedly) occurred? --B (talk) 00:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Under WP:BLOCKDETERRENT I feel that this falls under #2 and #3. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment- I'm not sure why MaxBrowne feels the need to patrol Ihardlythinkso's talk page. Whether or not IHTS's comment amounts to a violation of the topic ban, this continued hostile scrutiny could easily be seen as baiting and I'm not sure we should be rewarding it. Reyk _YO! 07:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
  • In any kind of limited ban, it is best to take anything connected with that ban off your watch list. In the case of an interaction ban, it is best to treat the other party like the ebola virus - keep as far away as possible. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Unblock...but this whole thing is bollocks. IHTS remains rather pissed off that someone called them a "classic narcissist". Personally, I don't consider it a violation of WP:NPA (really, so what if I was a narcissist, it's not a horrible thing to be called)..., but IHTS REALLY believes it was an attack on psychological condition - PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING in this type of situation. However Bushranger apologized for the statement, right here on either AN or ANI. Yes - apologized. Case-closed, one would have thought. I believe I even said at the time "now we won't have to hear about it anymore". So,

• IHTS perceived the comment to be an attack
• IHTS does not perceive the apology to have occurred
• IHTS perceives that an admin got away with a gross personal attack

This therefore can be easily resolved:

• Bushranger repeats the apology for one, final time
• IHTS acknowledges it, and gets unblocked
• MaxBrowne takes IHTS's talkpage off his fricking watchlist
• Everyone drops their sticks and goes back to bloody editing
• Any FUTURE repeat of this stick behavior can lead to whatever else the community wants

Problem solved. the panda ɛˢˡ” 13:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

IHTS's failure to acknowledge Bushranger's apology should not require Bushranger to apologize again. As far as this block goes, oppose lifting it early. Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of that incident knows exactly where IHTS was going with it. There are two simple facts here. 1. he violated his ban. 2. He needs to let it go. If he can't do the latter, he will continue to do the former, and will continue to get blocked. The solution here is for IHTS to serve his two weeks, drop the stick, and find something productive to do. Resolute 15:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

@Resolute: I concur: failure to acknowledge shouldn't be our issue. But we really could save IHTS and the entire community (obviously) a lot of ridonc pain if Bushranger either a) repeats his apology, or b) someone's wise enough to re-link to where it was, get it confirmed, and move on. IHTS deserves formal closure of what they feel to be a "psychological-wellness-based personal attack" and they and the rest of us deserve to move on once and for all. We're just going to continually get jabs about how admins are immune until it happens the panda ɛˢˡ” 15:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Just saying, admins are not immune, there is nothing stopping someone from launching an investigation. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:20, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure what the fuss is about. There was a consensus that there should be an interaction ban, there was a clear cut violation of that and the community consensus has been enforced. This seems to be a case of some people simply not liking the outcome.

While some people may not like it the fact is that there was an IBAN and it was violated. This issue is resolved. Chillum 17:21, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Not quite - there seems to be consensus that the IBAN was not violated ("consensus" in this case would very much be unofficial, since I started this post) and it looks to be 3 to 1. Unless there are more opposes, I;d say the IBAN wasn't violated and thus, the block needs to be rescinded. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I am starting to suspect you have not read what others have said. He did refer to the person he was in an IBAN with, anyone familiar with the case can see that. The only way you could not be aware of that is if you are unfamiliar with the case. Drop the stick and let it go, the facts are against you.

This is not a discussion on if an IBAN should take place, that happened long ago. This is a discussion to see if an admin action was wrong. The facts and policy support the block and most people can see that. There is certainly no consensus that the block was wrong. Chillum 16:51, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Unblock Nothing to be gained by continuing this block. Giano (talk) 17:40, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • No, there IS something to be gained, as I recently learned from a similar experience. 2 weeks is a good stretch to think at length about what a ban is and to realize the consequences of a violation. An early unblock is just an invitation to more of the same. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:45, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

    But maybe you're just a slow thinker? Eric Corbett 17:49, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I had no idea that you had been blocked for two weeks Baseball Bugs, but I'm glad you found the experience rewarding. However, while I thank you for taking time out from your busy editing schedule to share your experiences with me, my view remains entirely unchanged. Giano (talk) 17:55, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

You haven't provided any evidence that the topic ban wasent violated. Then again I would be shocked if you did have support for an IBAN here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

On hastyness

Interestingly, none of the users accusing me of hastiness have taken time to contact me to establish what due diligence I undertook before making the block. This seems hasty in itself and is yet another example of users assuming bad faith on the part of an admin in favour of stoking drama at a noticeboard but perhaps we can let that slide for the sake or harmony. Just for clarity, I saw the report as it was posted, read the post, the comment and also researched the IBAN and associated discussion as well as IHTS's block log. Only then did I act. Please can someone tell me what part of that sequence is hasty or lacks due diligence? Thanks. Spartaz 06:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Nothing hasty at all :-) the panda ɛˢˡ” 16:12, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Assuming bad faith on the part of an admin in favour of stoking drama at a noticeboard is en vogue right now. Chillum 17:34, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

User:Yankees10

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user has been stalking me aplenty. I've been editing a TON a sports articles lately and it seems that this user has been eavesdropping or stalking me whenever I edit some articles. For example, I have edited numerous articles like Geno Smith, J.J. Watt, and even Luke Kuechly. Sometimes, when I update these articles, he reverts them, claiming them unsourced, despite that they are up to date and correct so far. And get this; I'm not the only victim to being watch over by this user, he's probably doing the same thing to other sports editors. But luckily, we've never had any edit wars before. So I'd like to give you a head's up about this User:Yankees10. He has a lot of barnstars despite being such a strict editor but does not have any rollback rights, patrolled rights, or reviewer rights. I could use some help if you'd please. Thanks for your support. EternalFloette (talk) 21:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Glancing at the histories of the pages you mention and Yankees' contribution list, it looks to me that the both of you simply like editing lots of sports pages. Regarding the example articles you gave, Yankees has performed 6 edits to J. J. Watt and another 6 to Luke Kuechly over the last few weeks, the majority of which don't involve you - looks to me that Yankees simply has these pages watchlisted and keeps an eye on them. I'm also not sure what a lack of rollback, patroller, or reviewer rights implies - not everyone needs or desires these tools for editing. Hopefully Yankees can provide their own input. As for the reverts themselves, they do seem justified to me. It might be more constructive to find and add sources before simply reverting, but additions should be sourced nonetheless, especially for biographies of living persons. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 21:49, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Well, this, for example, looks like a BLP violation, and it makes sense he would revert it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:51, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Now I just revealed the truth that this user, User:The Writer 2.0 is very good at posting references to make the additions sourced and I don't understand why most other sports editors aren't quite experienced at adding referees quite yet. But now I'm starting to know the truth beyond the sheer force of BLP policies. Thanks anyway for keeping me up to date about the truth of all this. I really appreciate it. EternalFloette (talk) 21:56, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure thing - I posted a few links on your talk page with referencing guides, if you want to take a look at them. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 21:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

@EternalFloette: You say that Yankees10 hasn't "rollback rights, patrolled rights, or reviewer rights", but out of these three rights, he does have autopatrolled and reviewer. Anyway, what does his user rights have to do with this? – Epicgenius (talk) 20:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any proof of those rights. He doesn't have the templates beyond those rights either. There may be something hideous about him but the admins might investigate it soon. EternalFloette (talk) 22:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

FYI, Here's your proof. --Richard Yin (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks all for your support. Now I understand what's in potential about him. I guess everything is pretty much clear by now. So I guess we can close this case for now. But if anything happens, I'll let you know. EternalFloette (talk) 18:53, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for removing my earlier comment.--Yankees10 02:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

You should actually provide diffs if you think there is "something hideous" about Yankees10. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Admins please take a look at EternalFloette and PrivateMasterHD edits. They are almost certainly the same person.--Yankees10 02:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who PrivateMasterHD is, and I have nothing to do with him. I understand this stranger is banned and I don't personally think this Yankees10 is telling the truth. I've been in the Wiki wilderness quite a lot and I've ran into many strangers, especially those who are blocked and banned. Could you please close this discussion. No further edits should be made here as I requested once before. EternalFloette (talk) 12:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Aha! Thank you Yankees10, I knew something was up but I couldn't link the account to a master. EternalFloette is a  Confirmed sock of PrivateMasterHD and is now blocked. --Jezebel's Ponyo 15:53, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

In my experience, Yankees10 is pretty good at spotting socks. Out of respect for the ceased, you could honor the sock's last request and close this section. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:38, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Close of a stale RFC

Today, I closed a stale RFC at Talk:Ebola virus outbreak in the United States. It was a fairly standard close. Now, an involved editor, Floydian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has reverted the close for the second time. After the first one, I restored it, but as he has chosen to edit war over the close of a stale RFC, I will leave it to an administrator to deal with him. I won't restore the close again, but I strongly think it should be restored, and this editor warned that reversion of an uninvolved editor's close of a stale RFC isn't appropriate. (Note: I have zero edits to the main article there.) LHM 00:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• It should also be noted that his last edit summary ("not by a non-admin it isn't") seems to assume that a non-admin closure by a completely uninvolved editor should be given less deference than one by an administrator. There is nothing in policy to support such a view. LHM 01:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I am involved at the content at Ebola virus outbreak in the United States but not in the specific RFC mentioned here. The request for the close was made here at WP:AN by SW3 5DL, current status here. It requested a close by an admin specifically. I commented at the WP:AN request that the RFC also included a discussion about possible canvassing, and that needed looking into. While content RFCs can be closed by non-admins, requests to investigate and close possible behavior issues need an admin. Editors on both sides of the aisle, SW3 5DL here and Floydian here, have indicated that an admin is needed. Given that this has become a contentious close with possible behavior issues attached, I agree with both that an admin is now required. Zad68 02:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I had no objection to a non-admin closure. SW3 5DL (talk) 02:12, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

here you said Still need that closure and, obviously, it must be an admin to save further disruption.... I don't know what else to think. Zad68 02:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

It's very clear that he meant that in the context of Floydian's out-of-process reversion, it should likely be an admin that re-closed it. I was about to post something similar about your misrepresentation of SW3's position as well. LHM 02:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

At this point I need to just let others review the edits and make their own determinations. Zad68 02:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Lithistman, it's not me objecting to a non-admin closure. It's Floydian who reverted the closure twice, demanding an admin. In an effort to quell the disruption, I simply asked for an admin. When Lithistman closed it, I didn't object at all. In fact, I believe I thanked him. I still don't understand the issue. He's not really stated it. He's only reverted. And he's not come here or gone to AN. Don't know what to make of this. And, I'll add, why Zad68 has involved himself at all, makes no sense. SW3 5DL (talk) 02:27, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• I stand by my actions and statements. This needs administrator investigation, and LHM is not up to the task of looking into the allegations raised. That is all. - Floydian  _¢ 03:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

  You edit warred to revert a legitimate close of an RFC by an uninvolved editor, citing as your "reason" only that I am not an admin. LHM 03:33, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Aye, which begs the question, why now? Floydian, if you thought something was amiss, why not go to ANI to sort it? Why wait until the RfC goes stale and then edit war with a non-involved editor? Don't understand any of it. One day you're contributing a template that solves a huge problem, next you're reverting and making sweeping accusations. As far as I can see, Lithistman should close and an admin should let you know that if you revert again, you'll be blocked. As for going on about the RfC, if you've a complaint state it now with diffs or be done with it. End of. SW3 5DL (talk) 03:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I should mention one of the closures I reverted was performed by SW3 5DL themselves. The whole RfC was a joke, but since the articles have had time to be filled in with trivia and unconcise news events and information already present elsewhere, I fear the damage is now irreversible and we are stuck with a mess that could have been handled so much better if you didn't make so many maverick edits. The diffs are at Talk:Ebola_virus_outbreak_in_the_United_States#This is a joke, where they have been for some time. I wish I had handled this the day the RfC was opened and curtailed the cancer, but hindsight is 20/20. - Floydian  _¢ 04:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

No canvassing done at all. On the contrary, all RfC rules on publicizing the RfC whilst waiting on the bot were followed. The RfC was posted at the Village Pump here, on the talk pages of 10 editors chosen at random from the Feedback Service List, per the RfC rules/suggestions for publicizing, and editors from the immediately preceding AfD were notified, per the RfC page. Only two of the editors chosen at random responded, JBarta and Silvo 1973, and both voted "Merge." I voted "keep." I've not made that many RfC's in the 6 years I've been an editor. The RfC page was most helpful and I followed it. SW3 5DL (talk) 06:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Would an administrator please handle this close? I know that closing RFCs doesn't require an administrator, but Floydian has edit-warred to remove my uninvolved, non-admin close, and from his angry comments above, I'm fairly certain he'd do it again, if I again closed it myself. LHM 04:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

LHM, it can take a while. Don't worry, somebody will come along. SW3 5DL (talk) 07:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

A suggested resolution

We have:

• Two overlapping RfC's - the first not advertised as an RfC but showing a rough consensus for merging; and the second started before the first had closed and showing consensus for keeping the articles separate;
• a legitimate close of the first and informal RfC by Floydian;
• a legitimate close of the second RfC by Lithistman, but only if considered in isolation from the overlapping first and informal RfC which had a different result;
• with respect, legitimate concerns about forum shopping and canvassing (both linked earlier in this thread). SW3 5DL, you did indeed notify some apparently random editors, per the guidelines. You also notified every editor who voted to keep the separate article in the AfD, in the same order in which they cast their !votes - but not for example, the editor (Floydian) who !voted the other way, or other editors like Gandydancer who had expressed opposing views on this issue on the West Africa page. Let's assume it was an oversight, but it certainly reduces the credibility of the second RfC.
• proposed article merges without the use of merge tags, though this is perhaps okay given the poor intersection between proposed merges and RfC notification rules.

Am leaving this open for the sake of any further discussion but here's a proposal, time-wasting though it may be:

• A new RfC, opened by me as an uninvolved editor, at Talk:Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa, to be flagged on all the other "Ebola in.." pages and via talkpage message to everyone who has commented on either side since October 1.
• No action on the conduct issues except a general admonition that duelling RfCs and the appearance of canvassing are detrimental to collegiate editing, and may become disruptive if repeated. The tools at an admin's disposal are too blunt to be useful here. At the heart of the discussion is a genuine content dispute. It would be great if everyone could offer their opinions in a collegiate forum, and waving big sticks at one side or other doesn't tend in that direction.

Views welcome. If no one objects I will open the new RfC in a couple of hours tomorrow.Euryalus (talk) 08:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'd support this. Protonk (talk) 12:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually I do object. You claimed I did not notify Gandydancer and Floydian. That's not true. I had to individually notify the AfD editors because there was no common board where I could reach them. But the main article talk was a common board for the other editors and they saw it there. The RfC notice was posted on the Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa on the talk page here and

here.

They were holding what amounted to a closed discussion on merging all these articles. Notice, they didn't put merge tags on the affected articles to let those editors know that they were planning to quickly blank and redirect the new articles. They didn't link to their discussion on those pages. They did not communicate their plans to the editors of those pages at all. If you're going to 'investigate' you need to look at the whole picture here. I opened that discussion to the wider community and the wider community has agreed that these articles should exist. I don't know any of those editors who commented, and as you can plainly see, only two of the editors I notified per the RfC rules even showed up. And they voted 'merge' whilst I voted 'keep.'

You'll note also, that Gandydancer, Floydian, and the other editors did appear and commented. It was their choice to not participate at the RfC. They could have participated and made their views known. They did not. Additionally, one of them socked as an IP and made personal attacks, then logged into his account and agreed with himself in the same conversation. He posted on my talk page, the West Africa talk page and the RfC page. His comments had to be rev deleted.

Sorry, but the disruption by a handful of editors who have two involved admins joining them, does not mean the community's decision on this is to be discounted and overturned. Look at the diffs I just posted in this comment. Look at the discussion section I link to. I did notify those editors. I notified everybody who edits the West Africa article. It was plain as day and I included the link to the RfC. No, sorry, this is a valid discussion. Sour grapes does not trump the opinion of totally uninvolved editors who came from the wider community. Also, do not call Floydian's thread on the main talk page an RfC. It was anything but that. Floydian is using disruption to subvert the community decision. SW3 5DL (talk) 14:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support keeping the decision of the community on the RfC. The wider community of uninvolved editors have made the decision to keep these articles. That decision should be respected per WP policy. And everybody who commented at the RfC must be notified of this ANI thread. I'm happy to post the ANI notice or an admin can do it. SW3 5DL (talk) 14:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• I have no opinion on the content dispute. I also think that a new RFC would be unnecessarily time-wasting, but if other editors wish to spend their time in this manner, I have no objection to that. As for this being a "genuine content dispute", I would have agreed, right up until the point that Floydian edit-warred to remove the proper close of an RFC by an uninvolved editor. At that point it became actionable. However, as the issue became stale, and any block would be punitive instead of preventative, requesting one of Floydian would serve no purpose. LHM 14:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Alright, first off there was a discussion at the West Africa article about remerging SW3s maverick forks. The discussion was swaying to remerge them, it got quiet, and I announced I'd close it in 24 hours if there were no further comments. An RfC wasn't necessary (and any level headed editor probably thinks the RfCs that keep popping up on the Ebola articles for the most trivial questions are the signs of a lost puppy), and the comments from the editors who have worked on the articles were more than enough. But, SW3 did not like the idea that his articles were gonna be merged back into one succinct coverage of the topic. So, rather than open an RfC on THAT talk page, like any rational person would, he subverts the discussion by opening it on another page, not linking back to the ongoing discussion, and then only contacting the people that held his viewpoint. The claim that he contacted everyone in the AfD discussion is a bold faced lie because I started that AfD and was not notified. None of the editors who voiced a merge opinion at the West Africa article were notified. Next off, the RfC question was posed in a loaded way (and I honestly should have edited it when it was created to be a neutral question), and yada yada yada, this whole thing has become an irreversible clusterfuck of epic proportions. To quote Gandydancer, "This has been an example of Misplaced Pages at its worst." - Floydian  _¢ 17:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Notification of editors on the main article talk page was made in two places on the day here and

here. The diffs are clear evidence of that. And let me add, that if there'd been an AfD spot where I could post, I'd have used that instead of going to all the trouble of notifying individual editors. That was a huge time sink for me and I'd have much preferred a single spot for them. But no such spot exists. Or if it does, I wasn't aware of it. SW3 5DL (talk) 19:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, admins take note, that these complaints came AFTER the articles already existed. NOBODY put up any objections to their creation. It was AFTER the fact that this began. I'll collect the diffs later. SW3 5DL (talk) 19:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it has been Misplaced Pages at it's worst. Floydian's account is accurate. It was my impression that editors at the Africa Ebola article did not object to splits but rather the maverick manner in which it was done with no previous discussion on what we'd include in them, etc. Now we are left Sierra Leone, Guinea, and Liberia articles that truly are a disgrace to Misplaced Pages. I have tried to edit them but have been reverted to the extent that I am just not willing to attempt it anymore. Almost everyone else is just ignoring them. SW3 has just totally ignored WP guidelines for how we are supposed to conduct things here and now the whole situation is totally FUBAR. And now he is apparently accusing me of something or another - I can't quite figure out quite what it is. I've been here since 2006 and I've worked on a lot of difficult articles, but I've never seen anything like this. It is not at all surprising that we have reached this state where everyone is confused and does not know quite what to do, considering the manner in which this whole thing was initiated in the first place. Gandydancer (talk) 18:57, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You yourself voiced acceptance of the new articles. You and the others NEVER OBJECTED to them. It was only AFTER the articles were created that you suddenly decided that there'd been no consensus. I'll collect the diffs. SW3 5DL (talk) 19:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Well please do and hopefully you will find something better than what you've been using such as my "maverick" statement? Has it occurred to you that we did not OBJECT to splits because we are not mind readers and could not foretell the future in which you would ignore WP guidelines and do four splits without discussion? To editors that are not familiar with this ongoing dispute, I have been through this issue so many times with this editor that I am just sick to death of it. BTW, has anyone notified Doc James of this discussion, though he is most likely pretty sick of it as well. Gandydancer (talk) 19:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gandydancer, Did you or did you not make these comments?

• We are now left with the individual country sections and I'm about ready to agree to separate articles for them. It seems to me that as the epidemic has grown from an "outbreak" to an epidemic, with even a few suggestions of "pandemic" being dropped here and there, the news such as xxx country had this or that happen within it's borders is less important than the overall effort to confront the ever-spreading disease. Thoughts?

• Well, another maverick split - two down and two to go... I think that we should wait to remove our individual coverage of the affected countries until the new articles are cleaned up. What do other editors think?
• discussing a new article which was later created.
• Suggestion for condensing the article.
• 2014 Democratic Republic of the Congo Ebola virus outbreak was split off, as well.

SW3 5DL (talk) 19:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Not even one of your diffs suggest that I was in favor of an editor making splits without first finding consensus. Furthermore, it was laughable when you became indignant with Doc and Floyd when they deleted your splits, saying, of all things, that they had not first found consensus to do so. Gandydancer (talk) 20:04, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gandydancer, you just said, I have been through this issue so many times with this editor that I am just sick to death of it. Where are your diffs? You can go on all day about this, but where are the diffs to back up your comments? As an admin on an Arb page once said, "No diffs, no case." Shall I retrieve more diffs of your comments? SW3 5DL (talk) 20:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Because this is a developing topic the second, wider, more official RfC should win out, to keep the articles separate. I should note that there's been a bad tendency of editors to rehash half the parent article in the separate articles, which should be rejected -- that stuff should be centralized -- nonetheless, the rules will be different from country to country. For example, Western Ebola survivors fly around donating blood to their compatriots apparently as a personal decision, whereas Liberia as I understand has been suppressing "black-market" donation. The U.S. took an infected dog to a naval facility for ... isolation, while Spain euthanised one. Even though the number of cases is small, they will have a disproportionate impact in demonstrating the unique social and medical situation in each nation. Wnt (talk) 23:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

As an disillusioned editor on these pages, and an African.. i'll throw my few cents worth of comments...

• Sierra Leone - on 3rd oct this page was blanked 4 times, after exsisting since 27th Sep.. (by Floydian and Jmh649)- 1st Blanking (here) 4th (here)
• Guinea - 3rd Oct same story - 1st blanking (here) - 4th (here) .
• Liberia- 3rd Oct same story - 1st blanking (here) - 3rd (here)

• Spain While there was a consensuses discussion going on the Spanish dog issue (Talk:Ebola_virus_epidemic_in_West_Africa/Archive_5#Spanish_Dog), Floydian came in and reverted the section out, as Irrelevant...(here)-- On that day I lost almost all interest in helping "Regionalise" each of the split articles.....

• Popular Culture section which includes mostly cultural issues relating directly to Ebola.. In a region where literacy is low (10-20%), Historically the only method to pass on info, and get a message to the masses is via Music, Jokes and Preaching.. (I've lived in Africa all my life and have traveled in to the "POOR" regions and spent days learning about the culture.) After much discussion, i rewrote and renamed it to Other Works derived from the Ebola crisis, Regionalised as best as i could, sourced reputable refs, as well as some local to the region sites... While many might feel that this is 'irrelevant' it is actually a key part of the local culture. Music and dance, has been used to tell History and some stories in Africa long before written storybooks.

Editors are just too scared to update the individual pages because of the current edit war... i'm slowly getting back into it, but am been very cautious on what i edit..Gremlinsa (talk) 07:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Yes this has all been rather disruptive. I am supportive of having an article on the disease in the US and Spain. With respect to Guinea, Liberia and Sierra Leone they would have been better kept in the article on Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa. They are three relatively small countries right beside each other. The discussion on the merge of these three article was taking place on the talk page of the epidemic in West Africa when User:SW3 5DL moved it to a completely unrelated page. An usual move to say the least. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

This is where it now gets to the crux of it.. if we follow WP:GEOSCOPE; USA and Spain with (3/1) & (2/0) infections/Deaths respectively should be first on the list for wp:merge and not Liberia (4262/2484), Sierra Leone (3410/1200) and Guinea (1519/862).. However Nigeria with (20/8) never got it's own page/article.. why has everyone forgotten wp:RAPID. How would an American Editor feel if someone referred to the U.S.A. as Part of the Slums of the America's, comparing it as a whole to Mexico, Cuba, Honduras, etc... Any country in Africa should have the IDENTICAL WP:WEIGHT as America and Spain... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gremlinsa (talk • contribs) 12:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Gremlinsa for posting the diffs of their disruption. And yet Doc James is still here arguing his position. That's the truth of this matter right there. Doc James doesn't want these articles and that is at the heart of all this disruption and continuing time sink for editors.

Doc James, the community has already said the articles will be kept. If you and your friends would stop causing so much disruption, editors would start improving the Guinea and Liberia and Sierre Leone articles. It's you stopping it. It's Gandydancer and Floydian making disparaging, complaining comments on the talk pages of all those articles that puts a chill on editing there. When an issue is opened to the wider community, instead of confining questions to the WikiProject Medicine group where you hold sway, then a true consensus emerges. Inclusion of the wider community has given a decision you don't like.

The community wants these articles, they will be kept, and perhaps what is needed now is topic bans for you and Floydian and the others who've been wasting the time of all of us since these articles were created. And they were created with prior discussion where you and the others DID NOT object. It's the loss of control, me thinks, that has brought this on.

And the RfC question was neutral, btw, because you added in your version of the question. Fair play then, you can't complain that the question I posed, was flawed. Because editors also saw your "correct" version and yet they said, "Keep." I'll go get those diffs. SW3 5DL (talk) 13:28, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Posted the RfC here at 21:34 4 October 2014. Doc James posts his ivote: here at 22:49 4 October 2014 so obviously he read the RfC notice posted on the West African article talk page. The RfC question I posted was: Should we keep these newly created separate country articles about the Ebola epidemic, and allow them to continue to develop, or delete/redirect now to Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa?

Next, Doc James posts his own RfC question here which said, The question is "should we keep these three article separate Guinea, Liberia, and Sierra Leone or should we merge them back into Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa were the material can be discussed in the context of the outbreak generally.

The community saw both questions early on, as he'd posted it at 20:26 5 October 2014. The community saw both questions and the majority voted "Keep." Now Floydian comes along to contest the closure of the RfC by a non-admin. Reverts Lithistman twice. Notice, none of these editors who did their best to disrupt the RfC ever came here to contest the RfC. So why now? Why contest the closure of a now stale RfC by a non-admin? What's the point of that? Or rather, what's the goal of that? SW3 5DL (talk) 15:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I notified everyone who ivoted at the RfC unless they'd already commented here as obviously they're aware. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support closure of this RfC as Keep and Lithistman should be the one to close. No reason for him not to. The community has made it's decision. SW3 5DL (talk) 15:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: I was notified about this ANI thread on my talk page. I'd rather just say I'd prefer to respectfully defer to community consensus. Whether that be through community consensus from WP:RFC, and/or from WP:AFDs, or both, I'll defer to the judgment of administrators. Good luck all, — Cirt (talk) 16:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support closure of the RfC as Keep: The length of the RfC was standard, at 2 weeks or so, and it was closed after an appropriate time. We cannot keep having RfCs until the cows come home. We do not have time for that. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Tell that to the editors who create them for every minor issue on the article; also the standard length is a month. The issue here is not the result of the skewed RfC, but the skewing in the first place and the canvassing by SW3. When that issue is brought forth is irrelevant and it seems SW3 is aware of their actions if they are trying to deflect the notions based on the timing of things. I raised the issue on the RfC itself within 48 hours of it being created, and the question was never reframed or posed in a legitimate fashion. Like I said, this whole thing is a farce and only a handful of editors seem to grasp how shoddily this was done and the repercussions of it, both in the future actions of this editor as well as in the state of our coverage of Ebola, which is now in shambles from the great state it was in before late-September, when all these new editors poured in and demanded their changes be made. - Floydian  _¢ 19:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• But still, if SW3 hadn't notified all the editors, you could have told about the RfC to the editors who were not notified. Now that the article is so large, the option provided for in the RfC is not an option anymore. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I am looking forward to see these articles cleaned up by the editors who state that they have been prevented from doing so by me and a few others. When we voted them down we were not voting against future splits, we were voting against splits that were far short of even the bare minimum that one would expect to see on Misplaced Pages. Gandydancer (talk) 19:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

If the irrelevant reverts stop, and the editors are given enough time to source, write, and clean up, these articles will come up to scratch.. Can I also ask that decisions for these three be made on there own talk pages and not via the "MAIN" page... Gremlinsa (talk) 06:58, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

And before anyone says but where .... Liberia and Siera_Lione..Gremlinsa (talk) 07:14, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support closure of the RfC as Keep It looks like questions were asked of the community and answered by the community. Time to move on. I don't have all that much free time to edit but I'll contribute to the articles as much as I can. Miguel Pena (talk) 20:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support closure of the RfC as Keep seems logical--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry and shenanigans at Molly Ringwald and related articles

Since early this summer, there have been on-and-off efforts to add peacock phrases and promotional content to Molly Ringwald, associated articles, and a few other actress articles, like Heather Langenkamp and Amy Weiss. A few examples are edits like these: (The last one is a giveaway that something screwy is going on -- the film's budget is changed to a fabricated low level so the article can claim that the film was a commercial success rather than a money-loser).

There are a batch of accounts involved, with similar behavior patterns -- aside from the promotional tendencies, none have a user page, all rarely if ever use edit summaries, and at least two use screen names matching up to Ringwald characters. But until this weekend, there wasn't quite enough evidence to conclude that we weren't dealing with a cluster of like-minded fans. But in the last few days several of the accounts have been uploading obviously nonfree images for (obviously inappropriate) use in BLPs, and two of the accounts have been using the same defective NFCC rationale -- see File:Molly Ringwald in For Keeps.jpg, uploaded by User:Clairestandish, and File:MollyRingwaldBetsysWedding.jpg, uploaded by User:Darcyelliot. Further evidence of coordination between accounts: once the Clairestandish account had been warned to discontinue the misuse of nonfree images, that account stopped -- but User:AintNoOther promptly resumed the campaign, uplolading File:Ringwald on the cover of Time.jpg and adding a nonfree movie poster to the Ringwald BLP . In addition, User:IAmUnbroken has added nonfree images just uploaded by these accounts to the Ringwald BLP (eg, ).

The accounts involved that I've spotted are:

• Clairestandish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Darcyelliot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• AintNoOther (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• IAmUnbroken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Risetonight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Mendie12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There may be more.

User:GB fan and User:Dismas have also noted irregularities at the Ringwald article, and have discussed an SPI, looking primarily at the misuse of nonfree images . I think there's certainly enough evidence for a checkuser to act on, and quite likely for a few expeditious blocks. Whoever's behind this (whether one user or several) has become more active lately, and the problems, especially with nonfree images, are spreading to more articles. See, for example, the recent history of Lori Hallier and Tuesday Knight. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 01:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

@Hullaballoo Wolfowitz: If this is a request for a sockpuppet investigation, WP:SPI is the place - NickGibson3900 08:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• SPI and results noted at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Clairestandish.--Jezebel's Ponyo 22:01, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Editor 68.204.113.233 repeatedly removing well-sourced genres from Duran Duran

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Duran Duran (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
68.204.113.233 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Over the last six months or so, the Anon has repeatedly removed well sourced genres from Duran Duran and been reverted by at least five editors including me. There are no fewer than four cites for Duran Duran being new wave in the infobox. The talk:Duran Duran page is full of discussion on Duran Duran being new wave with numerous sources citing such. There are currently 144 mentions of new wave on the talk page.

Anon states (here Duran Duran have never been the Americentric new wave. Many sources prove this beyond all doubt. Please do not change this. Personal agendas should not be given space to distort proven facts. Thank you for your attention. (formatted / sentence case). S/he seems unwilling to accept sources that contradicts personal belief. Anon has not supplied more than one cite quoting a band member as saying they are not new wave. S/he has added somewhat to talk:Duran Duran, and has removed legitamate talk appearantly in contradiciton with beleifs Removed trash talk What part of 'removed trash talk' did you not understand?

Some of the removals in reverse order: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 The IP's edits have taken place over the last six months and has been blocked for edit warring once.

I personally don't care what Duran Duran's genre is and couldn't ID a Duran Duran song to save my life. I would like the genre warring (reduced considerably since the addition of the cites) to be reduced or stop. Would it be possible to get resolution on this matter? Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 07:51, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for six months. It would have been faster for you to use Template:Uw-vandalism3 and Template:Uw-vandalism4 and report it to WP:AIV I think. I'll keep a watch on the article but I don't think semiprotection is warranted at the moment. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Ownership issues on Joan Smalls

There seems to be some (semi) long-term ownership issues at the Joan Smalls (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) article that likely won't be remedied through traditional avenues. Also, the participants are various IPs and the one user involved, Friendlypete2014 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has not edited under that account since July 2014. I edited the article last night in a vain attempt to bring it up to standards. It was full of fan puffery, a questionable source (wordpress), style issues galore and other minor issues. My edit was reverted as vandalism by 208.54.45.145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) today. I reverted back and, while leaving a note on the talk page, my edit was reverted as vandalism again by 50.12.126.142 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). After looking through the article history, I decided to bring the issue here as it seems various IPs and Friendlypete2014 have been reverting nearly all changes made to the article by anyone (diffs below).

• 1st attempt to clean up/tag article by Prayer for the wild at heart. Reverted by 172.56.18.29 78/no reason for revert (March 22)
• Prayer for the wild at heart reinstates changes, is reverted by FriendlyPete2014 with the claim that the changes were "unsourced" (March 24)
• Prayer for the wild at heart explaining changes were not content related, FriendlyPete2014 "changing tone" (but not really) and adding fake protection template (March 24)
• FriendlyPete2014 reverting Lowercase sigma bot to re-add protection template (March 24)
• IP user attempting to clean up content, mentions ownership issues/inactive protection template. Reverted by FriendlyPete2014/added another fake protection template (March 26)
• Jdanek007 tagging article for issues. FriendlyPete2014 reverting addition of tags with some minor rewrites to lead (Jdanek007 also left a talk page note which was unanswered - April 2/3).
• FriendlyPete2014 reverting addition of "advert" and "peacock" tags with a edit summary telling people to "Please do not alter or vandalize article" (July 19)
• My edit reverted by 208.54.45.145 as "vandalism" (October 20)
• My edit reverted minutes later by 50.12.126.142 as vandalism

I'll notify the IPs and the one user involved but considering the amount of IPs and the fact that FriendlyPete2014 hasn't edited in quite some time, I have not left them a personalized note about ownership, style guides, what vandalism actually is, blah. Seems pointless really because I don't think the D in BRD is gonna work in this situation as they're determined to keep the article their way. I think some long term semi-protection might force the participants to go to talk or, at the very least, give others a chance to bring the article up to standards for more than a day. Pinkadelica 13:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I've done some more clean-up and things have since gone quiet. I will add this article to my watch-list and will monitor. Note FriendlyPete2014 has also been repeatedly uploading non-free images to place in the article, so we need to watch for that as well. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Diannaa. Pinkadelica 15:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Lia Olguța Vasilescu should not be deleted!

It is well sourced and a fact from Lia Olguța Vasilescu appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 11 October 2014. It is against the spirit of[REDACTED] to remove a fine article like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osugiba (talk • contribs) 14:32, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Did you know that: ...DYKs have been deleted before (see Chihiro number)? – Epicgenius (talk) 14:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok then, let that argument go. But it is a well-sourced uncontroversial article. Osugiba (talk) 14:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Created by a sock - see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Iaaasi. Deleted. Dougweller (talk) 15:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

And then deleted, and then recreated. See the new thread I'm about to post below. -- Hoary (talk) 03:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Norden1990

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I want to draw the attention of the administrators to the Norden1990 case. He has an indefinite block and he has made lots of illegal contributions since he was blocked. But unfortunately, administrators ignore his investigation page. The last investigation request was reviewed after 15 days and the closing message was "IP appears to be dynamic and the last edit made was over two weeks. Sockmaster has likely moved on to another IP, so I don't see how blocking would prevent anything. Closing. ". How can administrators be so sloppy here? They ignore his case and after 2 weeks they say "now it is too late" ? A reasonable administrators would have immediately have made a IP range block for the group of socks 84.236.42.94, 84.236.42.0, 84.236.7.157, 84.236.16.49.

I strongly suggest administrators to look at his case as soon as possible, before he "likely moves to another IP" again. Some range blocks could be shaped there (there are some clear favourite IP formats there). and maybe a site ban after so many months of continous socking. Osugiba (talk) 14:42, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The above message was brought to you by a self-confessed sock of User:Iaaasi, who is blocked. (I'm leaving the message here as the sockmaster clearly has enough energy to create yet another sock to repost it if deleted.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Topic-ban request for User:Der Statistiker in Paris articles.

- Constant aggressive edit warring, constant disregard for/gaming WP rules and reverting in disregarding (even denying) talk-page discussions, ... for starters.

I could make a long list of events, but I think the present state of the Talk:Paris page is enough of a case. Der Statistiker has some very original views about what Paris "should" be (but isn't), and goes to any length to make sure that they become "reality" in the Paris article, all while remaining just inside Misplaced Pages rules, of course. Repealing their efforts has always been a headache, and that since almost ten years now.

(edited) This is a mess. I'm withdrawing the meat puppet and sock puppet accusations for now, because I'm now not sure who started what, but for sure at least two few-edits participants are from the www.skyscrapercity.com page where (Google translated) 'troops' were coached how to edit Misplaced Pages, and both Minato ku and Sesto Elemento are present here (read forward and back for more): , and a former 'vote' campaign originated there too , but it was not reported by participating contributors. (added) No, wait, yes it was! . Der Statistiker is absent from all these discussions, oddly. And we still don't know who started brought them in the first place. Admitedly, it might have been Minato ku, and Der Statistiker was just jumping on their cause. Neither party spoke up to clarify (or even deny) even after being asked, anyhow. THEPROMENADER 23:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Good example of Der Statistiker's general attitude towards discussion and other contributors:

Sockpuppet case against Der Statistiker: conclusion: Editing another language under another name

Der Statistiker, latest bout of reverts: First revert (diff): 2014-09-23T02:33:20

contributions:

Minato ku first revert: 2014-09-23T22:23:19

contributions:

Sesto Elemento first revert: 2014-09-21T17:23:56

contributions:

Through all of the above, Der Statistiker and at least two of the above participants appear always at the same time for the same 'cause'. I hope Der Statistiker's general bad attitude, unwillingness to discuss anything (except how others are (expletive) and wrong), the general disingenuousity (especially in false/'kettle black' accusations) is evident enough throughout all that... I think it more than is, but I'm hardly looking at this objectively.

Right, so you recognize yourself that you're not sure anymore who started what, you open a case here to ask for my banishment, but then say it's in fact Minato Ku who might be responsible (then why did you open this case about me in the first place??), then post some diffs showing some reverts from myself and two other editors which are similar, but dear Sir, I can also post some diffs from you and other editors which are similar. ThePromander's reverts (, , ), SchroCat's reverts (, , ), Jeppiz' reverts (, ), Dr Blofeld's revert (), all perfectly the same, reverting to the same photomontage (notice how each guy stops before breaking the 3 revert rule and lets the other ones continue to revert in turn).

You then accuse me of always showing up at the same time as other editors. It's funny because I always see you popping up in the Paris article at the same time as User:SchroCat, User:Dr. Blofeld, and User:Jeppiz, and always, always to block any change in the montage at the top of that infox. So are you guys informing each other of the changes in that infobox to act together? Or are SchroCat, Dr. Blofeld, and Jeppiz your meatpuppets, or are you theirs?

Your accusations can be thrown back at you, and do little to improve the editing atmosphere in the article. For more than a year now I've seen the three of you (ThePromenader, Dr. Blofeld, SchroCat), with the occasional help of Jeppiz and one or two other editors, acting together to prevent any change in the article that you don't like. On that I second what Metropolitan said today: it looks like WP:OWN to me. Der Statistiker (talk) 00:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Ownership? Coming from you, and your staggering displays of ownership so far, that's incredibly rich. - SchroCat (talk) 06:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The only thing anyone can accuse me of is being very bad at arguing. But thanks for insinuating otherwise.

Whether the others show up by your bidding or on their own, you are using them to promote your own POV, which would be impossible without misguided 'like-minded' support.

Actually, it would be great if Minato ku and Sesto Elemento gave their input here. THEPROMENADER 05:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Have you got some evidence of the sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry otherwise you would be better to strike those parts of the report. Amortias (T)(C) 20:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. I already withdrew the sockpuppet part (this user may have been condemned in the past for this, but I have to check that). For meatpuppetry, what should I provide? THEPROMENADER 20:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

For meat puppetry you would want to provide links to other contributors providing similar or identical additions or removals of information that have limtied or few other contributions. Amortias (T)(C) 20:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Echoing Amortias above. Additionally have other dispute resolution avenues been tried (WP:DRN or WP:RFC)? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I agree that DerStatistiker is a user whose behavior at Paris hurts Misplaced Pages more than it helps and I could support a topic ban. I agree with Amortias that every accusation has to be supported by evidence and diffs.Jeppiz (talk) 20:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Please bear with me, in all my years here, I've never done anything like this before. Isn't the talk page itself a good start? The edit history of all those involved would help, too... okay, I'll go get those. Sorry, cheers. THEPROMENADER 20:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Might be worth looking at WP:D&L for advice on producing the diffs for evidence. Amortias (T)(C) 20:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I should have been better prepared. I withdraw the meatpuppetry accusation (I have yet to sort out who did what first, I may have been wrong about that), so my bad, Sorry. THEPROMENADER 22:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I must make another correction: I did make a case against the same user, but for sockpuppetry. I added it into the links above. THEPROMENADER 22:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

All I wish to say about the matter I have already said elsewhere (repeated in the thread below, as applicable. – SchroCat (talk) 21:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Endorse, And strongly so. You only have to have to look at his behaviour and lack of AGF last July/August and in events since such as recently and forum shopping to make this an appropriate action.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Dr. Blofeld and User:SchroCat have contacted me off-wiki, asking me to weigh in here as a non-involved admin, so here are my remarks and a suggestion as to how to resolve this.

I realize AN/I is not normally a place to talk about article content, but in this case I can't help weighing in on that first. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a special-interest site, and in the case of an article about a millennia-old city, it is not surprising that the most iconic structures in the city would be ones that have been around for a while. The presumably most iconic skyscrapers of the region, La Défense, sit outside of the city itself. The recent dispute about the infobox image strikes me as an enormous waste of time that could be better spent improving the article. The image is entirely suitable, whereas (for example) the "landmarks" section is frankly an almost unreadable laundry list. And, yes, the article probably needs to say more about modern Paris, and possibly the image isn't perfect, but it would not be on any reasonable person's list of the top 10 things that ought to change about this article.

But on to the process matters that belong here at AN/I.

Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and it is primarily about building an encyclopedia rather than about experiments in process. Yes "anyone can edit," but we seem to be dealing with a matter here where all but one of the contributors with significant experience here are on the same side of the issue and, even if none of the people weighing in on the other side are "meat puppets," let alone sock puppets, the fact remains that they are not people who have made any signficant contributions to Misplaced Pages, nor have they shown any indication that they are coming in here with expertise rather than with an agenda. (I'm all for people who haven't contributed before joining discussions, especially if they have knowledge to contribute, but clearly if a bunch of people showing up at once to weigh in on one side of an argument, some off-wiki canvassing is going on.)

So here is my suggestion. User:Der Statistiker: have the sense to back down when all the other experienced editors disagree with you. And, going forward if you don't do that, yes, I will support a topic ban, which would be a pity because you obviously have more of a clue about the topic than you do about how to collaborate. If you think you can propose some hunks of prose that could be added to the article to take up the topics you think have been neglected, and that there is any chance of actually getting consensus for them, go for it, but bow out gracefully if you can't get that consensus. And if you want to round up people from off-wiki, round them up to work on articles that actually need a ton of work, in areas where they actually have expertise, not to weigh in as useless extra voices. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and when someone comes out of nowhere and weighs in on a disagreement on a talk page, they are not effectively casting votes: they are just wasting everyone's time by obscuring the strong, though not unanimous, consensus that obviously exist among the relevant parties.

And the other people working on this: the article is already protected. Don't feel like you have to answer every point Der Statistiker raises on the talk page if he's clearly proposing something against consensus. You don't have to repeat your view for each time he repeats his, or someone with no contributions to Misplaced Pages echoes his. And you could put some of the time saved into proposing some edits that would improve the article, especially to remove some cruft and make it the readable overview it should be.

Probably not what anyone wanted to hear from me. Oh, well. - Jmabel | Talk 02:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy with that... and happy to finally see some attention and an objective voice of reason. This has been going on since almost ten years already. Thanks. THEPROMENADER 07:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I now gather that there is a related sock puppet/meat puppet investigation that was not linked here. If that comes up positive, obviously I would support appropriate warnings or blocks. - Jmabel | Talk 15:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Update and Comment - The earlier 'kerfuffle' over the Paris Lede photo caught the attention of France's national newspaper, Le Monde , and their article brought some attention to French wikipedia. Because of this, this user's behaviour has bled over to there as well, and their battle there is the same (Paris-related articles) as here. They are now posting as multiple anon IP's, and still pushing their 'this photo or nothing' agenda : and . A lengthy ad hominem-filled 'this photo or nothing' argument was posted on both pages by IP 86.195.249.77, later just-as-rude and personal-attack filled comments later came from 86.195.16.25 and 83.204.251.169, yet later 86.195.16.25 and 83.204.251.169 came to change 86.195.249.77 and 83.204.251.169's signature to Der Statistiker . What's more, the same is imposing the same photo on the French Paris article (in ignoring the ongoing discussion) as user Pointois , the same that surfaced in the Der Statistiker sockpuppet case here. Why not post as Pointois? An admin asked them to disclose this link, but they never complied. Der Statistiker was User:Hardouin here before, too... and with all the single-purpose 'parachute contributors' appearing out of nowhere with every conflict they create, it makes it hard to tell where the canvassing ends and the multiple usernames begin.
  
• Anyhow, I am trying to use the attention the article brought to recruit Paris-knowledgable French-wikipédia contributors to help bring the English Misplaced Pages up to WP:FA status (I offered to help with the translation), but Der Statistiker's belligerant behaviour, lack of consideration for other contributors (ignoring them or treating them as 'stupid obstacles' if they don't side with him), lack of participation in discussions (if not only to obfuscate them in wordy condescending language, false comparisons and details they know participants won't understand), canvassing 'like-minded' (for their agenda) off-wiki contributors (who tend less to know/care about silly things like 'references' and 'rules' ) to 'support' their 'cause', general use of subterfuge and gaming the system in general, all serve to disrupt the editing atmosphere and to dissuade any new contributors from participating. I wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly their goal. I think ten years of this is long enough.THEPROMENADER 12:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

WARNING This case was closed by an admin and moved to the archives: , but ThePromander, who is engaged in a personal feud here, has resurrected this case by removing it from the archive and pasting it here. WP:HARASS? Der Statistiker (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Um.... no. It was not closed (pending the sockpuppet investigation related to this case) and it was archived... by a bot. I moved it here again because you've recommenced exactly the same bad behaviour you were warned about earlier in this thread. Thanks for drawing attention to this, though. THEPROMENADER 22:15, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Endorse. A topic ban for Der Statistiker seems to be the only reasonable option. The repeated disruptive behavior (including grossly obvious off-site canvassing by the same user) has gone on too long, and continues to date, on both the French Paris Talk page and the English Paris Talk page. Consensus has been attained (notwithstanding outside help from meatpuppets or otherwise), and yet Der Statistiker continues his/her disruptive campaign of personal attacks while blatantly pushing his/her agenda. Enough is enough. It's time to move on constructively, in the hopes of improving further still the quality of articles here at Misplaced Pages. Coldcreation (talk) 11:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Support topic ban. I was in two minds about it, until I saw Statisker shamlessly canvass on French Wiki for people to vote on the issue here, even though consensus was reached some time ago, as well as to engage in personal attacks on editors on this site. That is a rather shameful stance. - SchroCat (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

a- you were never in two minds about this. You have always been biased against me, and have repeatedly insulted me on the Paris talk page ("fuck off" and the likes). I can provide diffs if requested.

b- I have not "shamelessly canvassed". What's shameless is your unfounded accusation. WP:CANVASS explains clearly that "it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions", which is exactly what I have done. I have not told anyone to vote in this or that way.

c- all I see here is a rogue group of usual suspects who have resurrected an archived case because they hate me so much they wish to have me banned (not just temporarily blocked or warned or whatever, but banned for life, perhaps eradicated if they could). Probably the article published by Le Monde which talked about my work at Misplaced Pages has greatly angered them: . None of this is going to improve the reputation of Misplaced Pages. You guys are not living in a dark box, and the rest of the world is watching you and what you're doing. Der Statistiker (talk) 12:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

a. Yes, I was in two minds, as there had been no additional issues on the talk page, so please do not try and double guess what I may or may not have been thinking;

b. You have canvassed, and it is a lie to claim otherwise; roughly translated you have said: "Your help at all would be welcome to end the deadlock. We cannot accept that a handful of Canadian-English publishers impose their vision of Paris to the world".

c. I'll ignore this: it's not worth addressing. - SchroCat (talk) 12:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

a- Your history on the talk page shows you were never in two minds. In fact your first edit ever in the Paris article consisted in making a wholesale revert of my contributions to the article , even though we had never ever known each other or talked to each other before. Did you try to discuss things with me before reverting me? No.

b- There is a handful of Canadian-English publishers who try to impose their vision of Paris, and I'm not ashamed to repeat it here. All I've asked is for knowledgeable French editors to come to the Paris article and express their opinions about this, because there is indeed a deadlock since none of you is willing to compromise. I have not told the French editors what opinion to express, in fact it would be rather counter-productive given how independently minded the French usually are. All I've said is they should air their views to see if we can move from there.

c- You ignore it because you know it's true and have nothing to respond to it. Pitiful. Der Statistiker (talk) 13:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I am going to disengage from further comment here. You are not listening to explanations, and are only seeing what you want to see, while denying what can be seen by anyone in your bad faith comments on French Wiki. - SchroCat (talk) 13:27, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse a topic ban for Der Statistiker. I generally lean on the side of dispute resolution rather than topic bans but the outright off-wiki canvassing and battleground mentality presented here is too much not to attract a topic ban. Blackmane (talk) 22:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse a topic ban for Der Statistiker. Looking at diffs it is clear disruption going on. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:18, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Important notice: coverage of the story in French media
The conflict between contributors of the Paris article has already been published in Le Monde newspaper . A story which has also been mentionned on the French major radio Europe 1 . The conflict opposes contributors such as ThePromenader and SchroCat who pushes a WP:POV for a purely heritage/tourist description of Paris against those who want the city to be portrayed in a more multi-dimensional way, emphasizing also its no-less significant role as an important node in the global economic system .

In this context, resurrecting a closed file as it's been done here, with journalists starting to follow this affair, is clearly not the good way to calm things down. I should also add that the file is totally empty. Der Statistiker is clearly not the most aggressive contributor in the conflict. He insulted no one, which is not the case of other contributors as shown in these examples: .

The Paris article will be unprotected on 25 October 2014. At this stage, the most important thing in my humble opinion is to calm down heated temperaments so that we could bring back a more constructive spirit to the work on the article. Asking admins to choose their side in the conflict, as proposed here by ThePromenader, is clearly not the good way to achieve that purpose. Metropolitan (talk) 14:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Important to who? That article was but a wee appeal-to-emotion blurb about the 'kerfuffleness' of the 'debate' that neither asked nor answered questions... it was anything but 'important', and I was in it. I can provide a link to it if anyone likes.

Metropolitan's 'solution' for 'calming the debate' is letting a few fulfil whatever goal they were summoned here to fulfil in spite of a consensus (that they deny exists) - this is called 'an agenda'. THEPROMENADER 15:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

What all this is about is a wikipedian (or not) with an agenda off-wiki canvassing others for the sole purpose of 'forcing' one photo. THEPROMENADER 15:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Jesus Christ. This is still going on? It's been well over a year now. I haven't looked into this article since then, but given the same names are involved now as then, chances are that more than one person needs to step away from this article. Resolute 15:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Resolute, plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose. Drmies (talk) 23:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
• Strongest possible support Please, just do it. Even now he's taken swipes at my work on it and canvassing off wiki. He's annoying and disruptive who ought to be banned full stop.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:58, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Blofeld, you should read again the WP:5PILLARS of Misplaced Pages: "Since all editors freely license their work to the public, no editor owns an article and any contributions can and will be mercilessly edited and redistributed". How could you ask admins to ban someone on the ground that "he has taken swipes at work"? That's against the very fundamental principles of Misplaced Pages. Metropolitan (talk) 20:22, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Review of RfC close/revert at Neil deGrasse Tyson

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Last night, after spending a couple of hours reviewing the discussion at Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson I closed an WP:RFC at Neil deGrasse Tyson. The RfC had been open for 28 days, and the conversation regarding that specific RfC had died out roughly two weeks ago with the last contribution to the RfC being on October 5th. The RfC specifically requested that only WP:DUE weight be considered in the closing, and I closed based on that policy and WP:BLP writing: "Closing this as do not include on the basis of WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE. It is clear that this is a contentious issue, so without excellent sourcing - which establishes the weight of this incident in the context of Dr. Tyson's life and career - the default of non-inclusion applies." The closure was reverted by a !voter in this edit with the summary: "there is no need to close a still active RFC, particularly the way this editor did so." I suspect that the reverting editer may have been referring to one of the four other non-RfC proposals on the talk page: Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#terse_NPOV_proposal, Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#Alternative_proposal, Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#alternative_text, and Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#alternative_text_2 -- none of which appear to be gaining consensus. Could someone please review the close/revert/etc? aprock (talk) 16:18, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

This closure occurred at a time in which there was consensus that "only an uninvolved administrator close this RfC." It was specifically requested by me before the closure, that we let an uninvolved administrator preform the closure given how many people had commented on this and the contentious and unclear nature of if we had a consensus or not. No one else had objected to that request as the time of the closure. I still hope that when the full 30 days is complete that it is closed by an uninvolved administrator. --Obsidi (talk) 16:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Please link to this claimed consensus: "only an uninvolved administrator close this RfC." Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The request for an uninvolved administrator to close the RFC was made before closure here. At the time of closure, no other editor had objected to that request. --Obsidi (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I specifically spent time reviewing WP:CLOSE before closing this to make sure I was adhering to policy. Unfortunately, your specific request was lost in the WP:WALL of text. In the future, if you wish to make a request for closure, the best place to do that is at WP:ANRFC. aprock (talk) 16:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't ready yet to request a closure (as I wanted to wait the full 30 days), but I did want to make sure that whenever it was done, it was done by an uninvolved administrator. The request was on its own bullet point at the end of the RfC, not mixed into a wall of text (I don't understand the link to WP:WALL which is about walled gardens). --Obsidi (talk) 16:42, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, the appropriate wiki essay is WP:WALLS. aprock (talk) 16:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Huh? There was consensus that "only an uninvolved administrator close this RfC"? This is the first I've ever heard of it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

This editor is not an administrator. This RfC is unusual in it's weight and is high visibility inside and outside the encyclopedia. Closure by a respected administrator is indicated, not an unremarkable average editor. In addition, his rationale for closure is practically non-existant, consisting basically of citing "BPP", "Contentious", citing a couple policies and then saying no. That's the limit of his rationale. We have been debating this issue heatedly for about a month, and to have it closed with two quick terse sentences, without citing examples and rationale using the actual case at hand as discussed is insulting to the amount of time and effort invested in debating this issue. Furthermore, this editor closed the RfC with BLP rationale. This has implications towards it's includablity throughout the encyclopedia. BLP was not the subject of the RfC. WEIGHT and UNDUE were the issues stated in the RfC. To let this RfC stand would be a travesty. Marteau (talk) 16:47, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec)I suggest that where a closure is likely to be contentious per se, that it is wise to have an admin do the closing. I demur that any substantive BLP concerns were involved once Tyson specifically admitted to the misuse of a quote, (or proper use of a misquote?) Deprecating the !votes weight which relied on there being any doubt as to the events would seem proper here. Once the doubt was removed from the table, the claims cease to be contentious. I would also suggest the !votes based on there being a "conspiracy" to make the charges should be deprecated per common sense. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

@A Quest For Knowledge: Please read WP:CLOSE which states However, requests for closure may be made to an uninvolved administrator for discussions that have been open at least a week and are particularly contentious or unclear. Then look at the edit by @Obsidi: Given the contentious nature of this RfC, I am asking that only an uninvolved administrator close this RfC when the time period is up? Frankly, I think the wording needs to be tightened, can anyone ask for this at any time, but I do not see any objection, or anything at WP:CLOSE to justify ignoring the request. Do you? What should Obsidi have done differently, put it in red text?--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You bet. I couldn't agree more. This was an extremely poor choice as a WP:NAC given the contentiousness. Msnicki (talk) 20:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• That close was very short to be the result of a "couple hours" of review. That said, the main problem with it is that the text of the close itself cites no such research, only alluding to ephemeral "BLP concerns" that have not, as yet, been elucidated. And given the fact that Dr. Tyson himself has now addressed this incident in a very public way, such "concerns" are now moot. Any close (admin or not) should weigh the arguments, not just count noses, so-to-speak. This close seems like little more than counting and seeing that there were roughly equal numbers of each, without weighing the merit of the arguments. LHM 17:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:RfC#Ending RfCs clearly states than an RfC can be closed by any editor. Criticizing the closer for not being an admin is basically an ad hominem attack. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:57, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Criticizing the closer for being an "unremarkable average editor" isn't just a personal attack, it's also pretty uncollegial and, really, revolting, esp. since the person making that claim managed to rack up around one-fifth of the article edits that the closer collected. Their 177 edits on the NdGT talk page suggest they have a big dog in this fight. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Its possible LHM considers himself an "unremarkable average editor" as well. --Obsidi (talk) 17:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

This is possible, but that's not uncollegial. Calling someone else "unremarkable average" is. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I did not use that phrase, but I would not be offended if someone used it in regards to me. LHM 17:18, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I am the unremarkable, average editor who said it and I stand by it as a proper categorization of the closer. Perhaps someone could enlighten me about what makes him remarkable beyond his entry into this affair. Marteau (talk) 17:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I will admit to being uncollegial for I feel the close was a disgrace and reckless and my language reflected that. I will, however, strive to use less contentious verbiage in the future. Marteau (talk) 17:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate that. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Considering that Jimbo weighed in on this discussion with an opinion the opposite of that of the closing person, perhaps an admin with impeccable credentials should have closed this RFC. This solution is not ideal. Kelly 16:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Already getting attention by the people who highlighted the controversy to begin with. Kelly 17:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, we should be mindful of any off-Wiki canvassing. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is Jimbo's opinion more important that any other editor? It isn't. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

If you want uninvolved admin eyes on this thing, I can have a look over it; if I find something seriously faulty with the non-admin closure, I might re-open it. However, it is my understanding of policy that closing RfCs is not automatically a privileged domain of admins, and if the closure was otherwise properly done, the non-admin status of the closer as such won't invalidate it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks Fut.Perf.. Sure, if a close is contentious, admin endorsement may count for something, though the presence of the admin-abuse crowd has a tendency to render that point moot as well. In addition, that something "was specifically requested by me before the closure" is neither here nor there. Anyone can specifically request anything, but it doesn't always mean anything. In this case, it means nothing. For the record, I don't think I know the closer from Adam, but if they say they spent a few hours reviewing the case, I trust their ability to summarize it in a sentence or two. It's called AGF. Besides, not getting what you want out of the close is hardly a good enough reason to argue it should be overturned, and Jimbo's opinion is just that, an opinion, worth no more than yours or mine--that is, if argued with equal strength. Drmies (talk) 17:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Indeed, there's an entire thread above falsely alleging admin misconduct in this very topic space: Participation by Admin Dreadstar in edit war at The Federalist (website) AFTER fully protecting the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Fut.Perf., thanks for agreeing to wade into this contentious issue. Just a head's up - the RFC has already been re-opened although I'm not sufficiently conversant with RFC closure process to know whether a non-admin re-opening the closure is proper. I'm sure we'll sort it all out eventually. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:21, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I have posted my review of the closure at the RfC . It boils down to an endorsement of Aprock's close. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm astounded that a non-admin would decide to close this. But the problem may be in the RfC guidance, which doesn't even hint that it would be best for admins to close such a contentious issue.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with Sphilbrick. Permissible according to policy, but poor judgement. Contentious issues should be closed by admins only because a sysop has, generally, community consensus about their understanding of policy.--v/r - TP 19:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I started a discussion Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#Guidance_on_who_can_close --S Philbrick(Talk) 20:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec) ::::This view doesn't conform to the language at WP:CLOSE or the related policy WP:DELETE. If the language there is out of date it should be updated to reflect a new community consensus. Reviewing the talk pages for WP:CLOSE and WP:DELETE, I don't see a lot of discussion of editor vs. admin. Thanks for starting the conversation about closing. aprock (talk) 20:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

See below.--v/r - TP 20:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

"Astounded" is a very odd reaction - nonadmin closes regularly come to this board and AN, and over and over again - we get back the same result - nothing is done to restrict it any further than it already is (for delete) primarily because there is an apparent belief that admin is no big deal. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the point is that we cannot write hard rules into this. It has to be a judgement call. And we believe aprock made a bad judgement call.--v/r - TP 20:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we could write hard and fast rules, but we have not done so, even though it's an issue that arises again and again. As for Aprock's judgment, the response again and again has been not to look at the User's status but at the substance of the decision -- here the editor and the admin confirm the same judgment. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• • Why? What admin tool is required to close this? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:33, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I stand by my astonishment.

• The underlying incident required full protection of the article, not once, but twice.
• The site associated with the website first reporting the incident was the subject of a contentious AfD, which involved over 100 editors and generated about 30,000 words.
• The incident spawned a stand-alone article which was deleted after a 6,000 word discussion involving 41 editors
• The incident spawned discussions at noticeboards including Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_177#.28thefederalist.com.29_Source_directly_targets_Wikipedia_editing._Special_Conflict_of_Interest_concerns_for_this_source.3F RSN, another RSN and a 28,000 word discussion at BLPN
• The attempted deletion of The Federalist (website) lead to six external articles about the attempt.
• The incident itself was the subject of 12 external articles
• The RFC itself has 21,000 words, and roughly 100 contributors
• More than one participant argued the result were quite close
• I am a fast reader, but I cannot read the over 85,000 words in a couple hours, much less do any sort of analysis. (My count doesn't include the article itself, or anything on the talk page other than the RfC, doesn't count any of the 18 external articles about Misplaced Pages or any of the sources used to support the claim.)

Can @Alanscottwalker: point me to some RfC closures by non-admin which are comparable?--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Since you pinged me to respond, what is astonishing Sphilbrick is, even despite your apparent deep involvement in all aspects of the minitua this episode, as made manifest by your laundry list of all the apparently to you, important swirling miasma, you are apparently unknowledgeable about basic process. If you want a special closing regime for some RfC, you need to propose it and get some consensus for it before the close is made in the ordinary course of business. In other words, you are casting blame where it does not rightly belong -- someone just may come along and close it in the ordinary course of business, and you have apparently had a failure of judgement or foresight that you did not propose it be done otherwise, when there was much time to do so. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I did propose it and not one objected. At the time I had reason to believe we still at a few days left until someone would close it (as the normal time period for an RfC is 30 days, which would end the RfC on Oct 22nd). What more do you want? --Obsidi (talk) 00:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Get some consensus for it earlier. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

How much earlier is enough? --Obsidi (talk) 00:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Often, it's done in the first week, but how about the second week or the third, well before now, at any rate. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:15, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

So if I had done it in the 3rd week, what is to stop me from being told "well you should have done it in the second week". Or if I did it in the second week being told "well you should have done it in the first week", etc. --Obsidi (talk) 00:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, they can, but it is very much doubtful that that objection would succeed in my experience. But you won't know until you have an actual discussion with others on it, well before now. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: You said you are casting blame where it does not rightly belong I placed the blame on the imprecise wording at WP:RfC. Do you disagree that we need to improve the wording?--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:05, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, your initial comment, at least, shared some of the blame with the community for engineering it this way, but unfortunately you started off with criticizing a person for doing the community's bidding, for which "astounded" is rather over-the-top, to anyone who knows any of the history of this particular policy lacuna. It is just plain unfair to cast such blame, after-the-fact. It is entirely and solely the community's fault, it is this way (if anyone's), and if it is anyone else's fault, it is those who failed to propose and get consensus for an alternative closing regime, prior to this. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

As for whether we need improved wording, well, we always need improved everything. I will advise whomever takes this on (as with most policy change issues) you should know the history and prempt the previous objections, if you would like to succeed. I can't tell if I really have an opinion one way or the other, about this, I just am aware of what the past has wrought on this issue, as are probably most informed "ordinary editors" who occasionally try to do the service of closing (but irc one of my last closings on divided opinion may have touched on The Troubles and Naming -- for goodness sake -- so what the heck, it's still in place today - I flatter myself that it is because I got it close to a facsimile of "right"). Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

"I did propose it and not one objected." That's called raising a flag and no one saluting. You made a comment and no one responded. Possibly no one objected because no one took it seriously. We can argue about what exactly consensus means. But, it certainly doesn’t mean not one of the scores of editors on the Talk Page paid attention one way or another. Objective3000 (talk) 00:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• As Pope Julius repeated to Michalangelo: 'When you will make an end of it?” I can’t believe this discussion continues. How many bites at the apple do you want? So many articles, so little time. Objective3000 (talk) 00:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• From the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment, there is a link to a previous RfC which discusses this type of situation explicitly: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Archive_12#Review. aprock (talk) 00:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• It is a really terrible idea for the precedent to exist for non-administrative closures of RFCs. It is a short step from that to the subversion of the RFC process by closure by sock accounts and POV warriors. Administrative accounts are community vetted, random passersby are not. Carrite (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editing on ISIL by User:Gregkaye

Gregkaye (talk · contribs · logs) has repeatedly reverted or reinserted edits that violate NPOV and talk page consensus. He has been notified of the Syrian Civil War/ISIL sanctions. I warned him on the article talk page the he should not continue to revert, then warned him level on his talk page of 3 for disruptive editing, then level 4 when he did it again. He seems not to get the wp:point. I suggest a block to prevent further disruption.~Technophant (talk) 16:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Can you provide diffs for what he has "repeatedly" inserted? I can only see one large insertion. Also, a link to the talk page discussion re the material in question is needed. Thanks, Number 57 17:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated warnings have been placed on my talk page as at User talk:Gregkaye#October 2014. Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The editor has ferventaly argued against the use of the word "jihadist" in this thread then continued the same to the point of disruption on this more recent thread. The editor has also reinserted previously reverted criticism section which he original inserted here in the lead. I'll continue to look for more diffs. Keep in mind that this article has a strict 1RR policy.~Technophant (talk) 17:33, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Summary:

1. 16:13, 19 October 2014 - inserted paragraph into lead
2. 22:49, 19 October 2014 - reverted by User:Felino123
3. 08:19, 20 October 2014 - User warned on talk page and on user page of disruptive behavior level-3
4. 16:15, 20 October 2014 - material reinserted without edit summary (2 minutes! after 24-hour limit)
5. 16:21, 20 October 2014 - reverted by myself, user warned level-4

The editor also won't "drop the stick" and has continued to argue on the talk page despite being warned to drop it. I think this is enough to warrant some action.~Technophant (talk) 18:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I actually like this editor and he has made some important contributions (see Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Animated_GIF_showing_territorial_evolution). I don't want this editor topic banned, we just need to see this POV pushing and edit warring to stop.~Technophant (talk) 18:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Like me? I suddenly have a host of "Technophant mentioned you" messages in my notifications. Maybe so. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC) sorry to have placed this out of sequence.

Gregkaye I do value and respect your contributions. If you can just agree to stop the discussed behaviors perhaps this whole thing can be closed without any further unpleasantries.~Technophant (talk) 21:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You stick with your values and I'll stick with mine. You made very very blunt interventions on my talk page and when I raised query you could not be bothered to reply. I have not found you to be too consistent with your pleasantries. Gregkaye ✍♪ 21:32, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

On the face of it, this editor seems to be doing exactly what editors are supposed to do. You and he are both very active on both the article page and the talk page, making countless positive contributions to the article and discussions. You appear to have an issue over two things he has done: a single 1RR >24+ hours of a summary of some article material in the lede, and his strong argumentation on the talk page that "jihadist" is an inappropriate label for this group. His reversion without an edit summary is indeed not optimal, but it was after discussion on the talk page. If he is engaging in a non-technical violation of 1RR then so are you by jumping into a revert. It appears that you and some other editors considered the original insertion (which would seem to be simple BRD editing) to be a problem. Am I missing something? The material appears harmless and appropriately sourced, although if consensus is to keep it out of the lead then so be it. As for arguing that "jihadist" is an inappropriate term, again, on the face of that it looks like a reasonable and perhaps correct opinion — I certainly hope the Arabic Misplaced Pages doesn't use a similarly loaded word, "crusaders", to label every religiously-tinged issue coming from the West. Consensus and sources may fall otherwise, but unless you can show that this has gotten to the point of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and disrupting the orderly flow of discussion I see nothing wrong with discussing the matter on the talk page. If you think that simply continuing the discussion of the point has gotten disruptive, how is that so? - Wikidemon (talk) 18:27, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear it's more like 1RR=24 hours with a +0.14% margin. Also, Felino123 (an editor whom I've no previous interaction) made the first revert and I made the second so I'm not in violation of the 1RR rule. Also the second insertion (#4) was done after he was given a warning not to reinsert both on tha article talk page and user talk page (#3). It show a certain degree of stubborness an unwillingness to respect consensus. Also, it's BRD, not "BRDRD". ~Technophant (talk) 20:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, technically neither of you violated 1RR, which is why I called it a non-technical violation, meaning the spirit of things. I'm not accusing you of anything, just pointing out that it's not really clear what the problem is. BR-DDDDDD-RD is probably an acceptable editing pattern even if BRDRR is not: if the intervening discussion establishes either that the revert is for an unexplained or clearly bad reason, or there's consensus for inclusion, then it's fine to re-insert. In this case Felino123 had a well-explained and appropriate reason for rejecting this material in the lede, but I just don't see why Gregkaye was warned against reinserting it, or why any warning not to re-insert it would have any force. Reverting again with the summary "repeted insertion of controversial material" isn't really a good reason, that's saying that BRDRR is preferable BRDR; a second removal based on it being weak content, or against consensus, seems more reasonable. But back to the issue, is Gregkaye really being disruptive here? If so would they agree to take it easy, or is administrative counsel or intervention necessary? I'm not an admin, just passing by. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The material inserted into the in the lead isn't controversial as I stated. It's a summary of information in the Critism section. The reason for removal (clean precise lead) I agree with. This is more of an issue with "technical" 1RR (presumed intent to keep reinserting every 24 hours despite objections). Another user recently received a 3 month topic ban from an univolved admin for just DDDD with no R's without much (if any) warning.~Technophant (talk) 21:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• I honestly don't see a problem of a WP:DEADHORSE. Amongst the dead are numbered Iraqis, Syrians, Sunnis, Shias and a whole host of other people who have either lost life, loved ones or liberty. Horses however aren't among the dead. Problems with jihadist terminologies have also been independently raised by other Wikipedians. See: Category talk:Jihadist organizations Gregkaye ✍♪ 20:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I have actually not been involved in the "jihadist debate" at all. I'm on the top contributors on this page however I am mostly involved with gnomish technical issues and participating in discussions. I was just informed of a user problem and did my best to try to deal with it.~Technophant (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You have recently been the primary mover in the pushing of the use of "Islamic State" terminology which flies in the face of the example set by great swathes of the Islamic community and world governments. Gregkaye ✍♪ 21:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

That's a completely different topic and isn't relevant to this discussion.~Technophant (talk) 21:42, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Neither was there any relevance in your preceding comment nor the surprising gush of the self justifying pleasantries above. Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

@Gregkaye: That was uncalled for. You are just making yourself look bad.~Technophant (talk) 07:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment This is looking more like a dispute resolution issue. Perhaps that is a better way of dealing with a content dispute. Still, the edit warring must stop.~Technophant (talk) 21:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I have been a regular and active editor on the ISIS page since June this year and have become so concerned about this editor who joined the page recently that I even went to the WP:HD about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2014_October_14#Editing_problem. This outlines my concerns. You will see another request on the Help Desk two above mine from another editor on the ISIS page about this editor and one other, expressing the same concerns. Before I say anything else, let me stress that the specific problems I raise there aside, this is a good editor who has contributed much of value to the page. I haven't had time to sort out any diffs yet, and will confine myself to one issue for the time being, which has caused more grief than any other on the Talk page. The debate over the word "jihadist" has been going on for what seems like weeks, getting nowhere, it has taken up an enormous amount of editorial time, and there are at least four editors who consistently do not agree with the editor that "jihadist" should be kept out of the Lead. The editor rejects WP:RS completely, which WP is supposed to reflect. He disputes the use of the word by Reliable Sources to describe ISIL and sets his own views above theirs, which sounds like WP:OR to me. I have lost count of the number of times he has removed the word from the Lead, against consensus, and warnings lately about editing against consensus have been ignored. My basic objection is that the editor ignores WP:NPOV, which I will give some diffs for tomorrow. I am not very happy about this ANI, but something had to be done to stop the edit-warring and editing against consensus. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:19, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - The only edit warring, disruption, and ganging up is by Technophant and his (very) small local consensus, including P123ct1, most likely via secret e-mails against Gregkaye. Gregkaye is extremely knowledgeable, is doing what is supposed to do, and has tolerated them more than he should. To be fair, this should have a Boomerang effect on them. I no longer edit the article because of the same (very) small consensus that act as if they own the article and drive away editors, but I could not remain silent in the face of this injustice. I will also not get sucked in into this again. All I had to say, I already said it!. Worldedixor (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: Worldedixor has an open (stale) RFC/U with a strong consensus for topic ban on Syrian Civil War/ISIL and a strong dislike for P123ct1 and myself for opening it. It has not yet been formally put in place however.~Technophant (talk) 01:34, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Check the link - I fail to see a "strong consensus for a topic ban" - which goes to the OPs credibility in this action. Legacypac (talk) 10:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I cannot let that biased comment from Worldedixor go unanswered. Please refer to RFC/U and the Talk page in particular. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment The RfC/U has been closed because of inactivity (although I think everything that could have been said had been said, so I'm not sure why that was the reason). Worldedixor has been trying to get several editors sanctions/blocked for some time without IMHO grounds. Dougweller (talk) 11:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - this looks like a thorny question. I see some pages of discussion (which to be honest I didn't read carefully) but I don't see any clear vote where consensus was firmly established. Stronger enforcement is not a good substitute for a better consensus. Put ANI away for at least a week or two and get some third opinions; my thought though is you just say sources X Y Z call them jihadist and I J K disagree, and move on. Sometimes it really is better not to peek at the pig in the poke (not to argue the underlying philosophical point) when making this sort of decision. Wnt (talk) 23:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support I essentially agree with P123ct1's description above regarding POV and OR. Gregkaye has removed jihadist calling it "terminology as bastardised by western media" in his edit summary. Many of us have shown that reliable sources in all newspapers use this word in a particular sense. He insists that Western sources are wrong and his particular Islamic sources should veto our usage. Stats show that jihadist and extremist are the most used terms. He rejects the former and says he can not "morally" allow its usage. As he has just said above "You stick with your values and I'll stick with mine" when it is a question of applying our common standards and not our personal values. Jason from nyc (talk) 23:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc What else is it? You mention a few sound bites and bypass any of the reasoning behind it. Jihad, according to Islamic sources, is a struggle for the ideals of Islam which may cover a has a wide range of meanings but not wide enough to cover many of the activities of a wide range of Islamic extremist groups. The word has deep religious connotations and yet many political and other commentators from around the world have taken up usage of the word to apply it largely to more extreme situations of abuse and violence. One of my comments was: "A further radicalisation of Islam that results from the false endorsement of murderers as being "jihadists" will result in a perpetuation of needless death. Its unqualified and needless use of this westernised wording is not something that I can support. I will not have blood on my hands." One of your comments was, "Jihadists do not follow Misplaced Pages" which completely misses the point and what "stats show" regarding the reach of this encyclopaedia. Misplaced Pages cannot be a soapbox for a the misrepresentative western interpretation of jihad. The "personal values" that I am presenting in reference to this murderous group are seemingly shared by the majority of the Islamic world. They want nothing to do with it. It's also worth comment that Worldedixor is one of the few Arabic users that we have. Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The reasoning is (a) theological and (b) activist. You have an agenda to change the usage of the word jihadist as in jihadism when used in the English language in a restricted sense of armed struggle. We discussed this over and over: words have many meanings, jihad is not jihadism as Islam is not Islamism, etc. After long discussions you remind us of what you just said above, that in your opinion the common usage in English of jihadism leads to the ISIL's violence and it is your "jihad" to fight this usage even if you lose your editing rights. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Proposal - I propose to drop my complaint here if Gregkaye takes his issues to Dispute resolution noticeboard and agrees not to make potentially controversial edits (including furthering talk page disputes) until the DRN is closed.~Technophant (talk) 01:47, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support Jason from nyc's comment. He nails it. RS dictate what we write, not a particular POV favored in some region of the world. We use the terms used in RS, mostly English ones (because this is the English Misplaced Pages), and English language sources use "jihadist" all the time, and document that these groups use the term themselves, when they encourage jihad. They identify with the term as their prime motive. Gregkaye may need a topic ban. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:54, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

In deciding the relevance of the use of Islamic wording in relation to an Islam related topic then Islamic sources may be considered to have some level of reliability - or would you prefer journalists etc. known as they are for the use of a wide variety of sensationalist spins to help them achieve their goals. Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

If Gregkaye is to be banned from editing then I would prefer it be a ban on editing the article directly; limited to making suggested edits on the Talk page. This may not stop his POV pushing (which is problematic), however it will prevent disruptive editing of the article.~Technophant (talk) 07:22, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for editing back from "he".

Very politic. Technophant's edit came not long after this constructive edit which somehow wasn't mentioned. Despite misrepresentation above I have not rejected the use of reference to "jihadism" but have stated that it needs qualification and that we cannot speak in Misplaced Pages's voice to sanction them in this way. I am honestly trying to find routes to resolution and, at any stage, would appreciate help. Gregkaye ✍♪ 07:46, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Please drop the battleground tactics and consider my proposal above.~Technophant (talk) 07:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

If you dispute anything I have said then feel free to say what. For my part I dispute your claim of "edits that violate NPOV". All I am saying is that the questionable terminology "jihadist" should be given qualification. Above you claimed that a statement with basis was uncalled for and then added "You are just making yourself look bad". Meanwhile this thread is based on weak evidence with regard to which Wikidemon commented, "neither of you violated 1RR, which is why I called it a non-technical violation, meaning the spirit of things." Despite this my notifications indicator began blinking with rapid and prolonged regularity with "Technophant mentioned you" messages. You failed to mention my last edit. Absolutely I think by now I have every right to be wary but no, I don't bear a grudge. Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I have no grudge against you. Have you read the comments from other editors here? There's a problem with your approach to editing and resolving disputes and unless you offer up a solution (and quickly) you will most likely face sanctions. I don't want to see you topic banned but that's what may need to happen.~Technophant (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I am editing this article since two weeks ago approximately, and I don't know the editors, but I have seen what is happening. It is very clear that Gregkaye is disrupting this article removing the words he doesn't like to read, and messing it up by puting criticism on the Lead, just because of his subjective personal opinion (Jason from nyc nailed it). This is an encyclopedic article and should not be an opinion piece, as Misplaced Pages is not a platform for expressing personal opinions. Gregkaye has been warned several times, and he keeps disrupting this article. So I think something should be done to prevent disruptions. Felino123 (talk) 12:34, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support Gregkaye has made positive contributions to the article, which makes it unfortunate that it has come to this, however we have discussed the Jihadist issue at great length and the consensus of other editors is clearly against his stance. Ideally we could all WP:MOVEON, however Gregkaye seems to be taking a very strong POV stance on this word usage which is not appropriate. Gazkthul (talk) 21:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose While Gregkaye and I have disagreed on content, in my experience around ISIL articles he has been quite a positive contributor who works to reach consensus. Technophant on the other hand has been pushing the use of "Islamic State" even after consensus decided to use ISIL for the title and the article. I requested he stop so he put me on the Syria Civil War sanctions warning list in retaliation. The users here trying to keep an mention of criticisms out of the lead are just misguided. Darn near the entire world is upset with ISIL - a huge part of the story. Legacypac (talk) 02:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Legacypac's criticism is based on a false premise. The ISIL/ISIS consensus had nothing to do with the use of "Islamic State". The discussion was over a move from "ISIS" to "ISIL" in the ISIS article's text and nothing more. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:24, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support I am here since only two weeks ago, so I don't what contributions has Gregkaye done to this topic overall. If these contributions are important, then I appreciate them. But unfortunately we can not ignore his continuous disruptions of this article. When I criticized him for this, he answered that the opinion of imams about IS has much more value than the facts stated by the UN and Amnesty on their human rights reports on Iraq and Syria, because "Islamic criticisms" are "of more relevance than anything ". After this bizarre response, along with the info stated here by Jason from nyc, I can't believe he's editing objectively and in good faith. He's been warned several times, and he keeps disrupting this article. I think something should be done to prevent disruptions, given the fact that warnings and talking to him doesn't work. Felino123 (talk) 08:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support Persistent POV-pushing, editing against consensus and disrupting the collaborative work of editors all jeopardise the Misplaced Pages project. I have changed my mind about dispute resolution. I don't think it would work and support a topic ban, in order to protect all Syrian War-related articles. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:49, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

User:Fooladfc2013

This use is making a mess by creating almost empty pages for all red links in this page Taekwondo at the 2014 Asian Games. even though other users including myself improved some of those pages but I think it doesn't change the fact. he also created so many not-so notable pages like this one without any references. he also doesn't answer his talkpage at all. I assume he can't understand English at all, I also tried other language but I'm not sure if he even knows he has to check his talkpage ! I'm not necessarily asking for him getting banned because he tries to help[REDACTED] but I think someone has to stop him from making unreferenced and unnecessary pages. Mohsen1248 (talk) 22:18, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive creation of AFDs (again)

Frequent visitors here may recall that User:MayVenn created several disruptive AFDs because they disliked an editor who had contributed to the articles in question. Well now we have a "brand new" account, created just a few days ago, doing something similar. That user is User:Geoffreyofmonmouth and the user who is being targeted by their AFDs appears to be User:MJT21, as was first noted by User:Andy Dingley. I, like Andy, think something is suspicious here, but I'm not sure what. I am requesting admin input regarding whether this is just a coincidence, or a blockable offense, or something in between. Sockpuppetry seems to be the most obvious explanation. Jinkinson talk to me 01:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Arthur Pedley
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Francis Coulson
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/William Mansfield Poole

I think this is probably more about Bedford Modern School than about one editor's work. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Geoffreyofmonmouth and user:Bristolbottom have similar contributions, both making afd nominations of articles created by MJT21. Reasons for nomination are almost identical; MayVenn is targeting a different user and the style does not match. 82.132.212.9 (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I know, the style does not match, it's clear that MayVenn is not the same user as Geoffrey or Bristolbottom. Sorry if you got the (incorrect) impression that I thought that. Jinkinson talk to me 22:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism by User:Sarr X

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Switched Geranium and Germanium articles

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Geranium&diff=630450439&oldid=630445333
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Germanium&diff=630450684&oldid=629085641

Announced so proudly on user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User%3ASarr_X&diff=630453573&oldid=628871558

Was already banned in the past https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Sarr_X#April%202014

--Wikieditoroftoday (talk) 01:14, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Lia Olguța Vasilescu for redeletion

Or similar. Despite the heartfelt appeals of puppet "Osugiba" in a thread above, in a thread within WP:AN, and in a thread within the Help page, the article Lia Olguța Vasilescu was deleted (not by me). But later it was re-created, first (I think unobjectionably) as a mere stub (by User:Auric), and then enormously amplified in this edit by User:Nick, with the edit summary "expand article with text from external site under CC-BY-SA-3.0 licence".

Nick presents the source as this at Blogspot (which I've archived here). It's stuffed with Mediawiki markup and very obviously either is or pretends to be a Misplaced Pages scrape. Titled "fgfg", it's in a throwaway Blogspot account. (See the top page, doartest.blogspot.com.tr/.) Even if Nick had no idea of the history of the article, I wonder why he considered this to be a reliable source.

The earlier history of the article shows that it was created by one puppet ("Bagnume") of a banned user and then stoutly defended by another puppet ("Osugiba") of the same banned user.

I find Nick's re-creation of this article extraordinary, in one way or another (I don't know which way). And he's an admin, too.... I'd summarily delete/revert/protect it myself, but it might look as if I have some grudge against the biographee (whom I'd never heard of 24 hours ago), imaginably there's some rationale for copying in an article from "fgfg.html" within a throwaway blog, and so anyway I'll leave the job to somebody else, and also provide an opportunity for the defense of the article. -- Hoary (talk) 03:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The Blogspot page, although allegedly created in 2011, is an exact copy of this last revision made by Osugiba before the Misplaced Pages article was deleted. Also, if the Blogspot post was really written in 2011 how could the editor have used an image shot in 2013? Per WP:DENY I say the Misplaced Pages article should be stubbed back to Auric's translation. De728631 (talk) 06:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the Blogspot post seems to be an unattributed copy of the recently deleted version of the Misplaced Pages article, which makes it a copyright violation. Nick may have been unaware that he was inserting text which was itself a copyright violation (though given the source, he really ought to have known better). If he really wants to take responsibility for the edits of the banned user, he's permitted to do so, though in that case he must restore the article history so that all past contributors are properly credited. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

If you had asked, I'd have fully explained. The article I 'imported' should be the version of the article as created originally by Iaaasi (using one of his enormous number of sockpuppets) which was speedily deleted yesterday as the work of a banned user which nobody else had made significant edits to. There are several editors trying to work with Iaaasi, trying to get him to stop breaching has ban by socking, and trying to get him into the position where he can be rejoin the community. The most recent plan is to try and get Iaaasi to write on a blog (which is what he set up yesterday) making content available to be imported into the project by an uninvolved third party.

This idea comes from a recent post by Jimbo, where he suggested those who can't work with the community but who still wish to contribute should consider setting up blogs, writing there, and releasing their work under the CC-BY-SA licence.

If you insist on the history being restored, I'll happily do that, though I specifically included the correct attribution template at the bottom of the article to properly attribute the author in the manner they had requested. Nick (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

De728631's post implies that the blog post contains the most recent revision by the sockpuppet prior to the article's deletion. If that's true, then your attribution template was not correct, since it failed to credit all the authors of the article other than Iaaasi. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeap, it looks like there's been a misunderstanding on what Iaaasi should have copied over to his blog, he's taken the last edit he made, when he should have taken the last edit he made before any other editors edited the page. I've restored the history of the page to cover for that problem, but it now creates the messy issue of the source text on the blog being a copyright violation and needing to be de-linked, which in turn takes us right back to the issue of the article being by a banned user with no significant edits by any other user. I'll try and get in touch with Iaaasi and get him to remove the offending text from his blog and replace it with the correct revision (which by my reckoning is ). Nick (talk) 10:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. It would also be great if he wouldn't falsify the dates of his blog posts, as that causes considerable confusion (as it did in this case) over which version of the text is the original. If he continues to do this, the folks at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems may start removing all text imported from his blog(s) as presumptive copyvios. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:54, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

He's fixed the date issue too, he tells me he had simply overwritten a previous blog entry rather than trying to do anything sneaky with the date. Nick (talk) 11:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Great! I hope this endeavour at rehabilitation is successful, and that in a few months' time we can all welcome him back into the community. —Psychonaut (talk) 11:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• I find this very concerning. Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Iaaasi describes this user as having been community banned due to nationalistic POV editing and edit warring, and there is a note at the top of User talk:Iaaasi warning that in addition to socking to circumvent the ban, the user has been e-mailing editors to proxy edit for him. Talk page access has been revoked for bias. In a well intentioned implementation of a plan by Jimbo, one of our most out-of-touch legacy admins, Nick overwrote an article that had been deleted under WP:Banning policy and recreated as a rules-conforming stub by another editor with a version posted by Iaaasi on an external site, thereby creating an attribution violation. This version of the article should be revision deleted and either Nick or some other goodhearted editor should use the sources to expand the stub, rather than meat-puppeting for Iaaasi. Or alternatively, someone should take full responsibility for the article expansion as is permitted under the banning policy and has been recently clarified by Arbcom here. Since Iaaasi was banned in part for violations of NPOV and I cannot read Romanian, I don't feel competent to do this; otherwise I would have stayed up late last night and fixed up this article. To simply import a version by a banned editor, especially without checking whether it involved restoring uncredited edits by others, was a well-meaning violation of the ban policy. It's also unfair to other banned editors, or editors whose work gets reverted on sight: for comparison, see this recently archived WP:AN discussion on banning an IP editor whose edits are generally good copyedits, and discussions about article creations by socks of the banned Pumpie and the globally banned Olha. Banned means banned. It is the nuclear option. (Moreover, as Jimbo apparently did not realize if he indeed suggested this, potentially useful edits by editors with behavioral problems, banned or not, do not consist entirely or even for the most part of largely solo article creation. That is not how a wiki works.) Either the community formally decides to unban Iaaasi, or rarely and with extreme caution individual editors explicitly take responsibility for and reinstate his edits, or we modify the ban policy. I would advocate in any case for being very clear in ban discussions that a ban is a total site ban and requires removal of all edits by the editor made after the decision is reached. The AN discussion revealed uncertainty about that, and we may therefore be being too hasty to ban. But end runs around bans are not a good thing. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
  • This. WP:PROXYING allows for edits on behalf of banned users if it can be shown that such edits are productive and/or verifiable and there are independent reasons for adding them. But an initiative of only a few editors to rehabilitate a banned user runs afoul of this policy and our general principles. Whether Iaasi or any other banned users are allowed to insert their original content at Misplaced Pages in order to return to good standing is to be decided by the community. De728631 (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• I'm sure that Nick had honorable intentions. But I wrote above "I find Nick's re-creation of this article extraordinary", and after the explanation I still do. I'm not immediately sure of all the details of what Yngvadottir writes, but its general thrust seems right. However, there's also a more nuts-and-bolts question. There is of course nothing necessarily wrong with heavy dependence of an article on sources in Romanian. Unfortunately, I can't read Romanian. Can you read Romanian, Nick? If you can't, did you ask one or more dispassionate reader of Romanian to check the quality, or how else did you check the material? -- Hoary (talk) 23:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• I did a quick check with Google Translate to confirm the material was free from BLP issues. I'm satisfied that all of the information is correct and accurate, and that the article complies with the relevant policies concerning BLPs, as well as notability and reliability of sources. Nick (talk) 23:54, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• When dealing with an editor for whom AGF can apply, a quick check with Google Translate can suffice. I suggest that AGF shouldn't apply for a banned editor, and that a quick check with Google Translate is nowhere near adequate. -- Hoary (talk) 01:03, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• You can suggest many things Hoary but unless you actually can demonstrate a problem with the content, rather than the person who created it, this discussion is pointless, and I'm out. Nick (talk) 11:33, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: reusability of Misplaced Pages content is infinitely more important than the details of how we might try to deter banned editors. Since Misplaced Pages ought to be able to take CC-licensed content from other online encyclopedias with practicable attribution, and vice versa, it inevitably follows that we can take CC-licensed content from deleted Misplaced Pages entries. When this happens the decent way to close the loop is to identify the deleted content that we now find acceptable to keep on a live page, and undelete that content. Because obviously per CC the worst thing we could do would be to delete history revisions solely to conceal their attribution. Undeleting the history, and also undeleting any associated talk page revisions, also has the advantage of revealing what substantive problems people found with the text the first time. Whether the choice is to delete the article or to undelete the history, it should be done rapidly to show that CC is taken seriously; the choice of which to do reflects the outcome of the undeletion discussion or new AfD that would happen anyway. And if a banned user has used this to sneak some acceptable content into the encyclopedia, so what? You know you'll never catch them all! Wnt (talk) 15:13, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• @Wnt: I'm not sure how far removed our points of view ultimately are; and to complicate things, Jimbo has now said at my talk page that his statement on the topic has been misrepresented. Since I don't know where that statement is to be found, I don't know. However, we ban editors to prevent harm to the encyclopedia. In this case, an old one that I am unfamiliar with and linguistically ill-equipped to investigate for myself, at least partly because of non-neutral editing. Letting such a person's edits stand is ill-advised on that basis. Rather, if they can be shown to have reformed, let's unban them. That way we also avoid this kind of ridiculously complicated methodology involving blogs, not to mention the time sink of investigations and AfDs. On the other hand, if they are to stay banned, as Hoary says, they've exhausted the community's good faith and any edits made by their socks in defiance of the ban should be reinstated on an individual basis and with great care, with the person reinstating them explicitly taking full responsibility. It is my understanding that we just had an ArbCom case clarifying that. Part of my concern is that if we devalue a ban by enabling it to be circumvented as appears to be the intent here as a way of rehabilitating the editor, we open the door to more casual banning of other editors (as in my opinion we saw in the AN discussion on the IP editor); part is that it's simply unfair to other banned editors who don't happen to have supporters willing to work with them (and rewards e-mail and other off-wiki canvassing); and part is that it flies in the face of the motivation for their having been banned, which is to protect the encyclopedia. Altogether better would be to unban, since the issue really boils down to: is this editor's work a net gain or a net danger to the encyclopedia. Otherwise we should follow ArbCom's ruling and make reinstatement of such edits rare and very cautious. I believe an AfD to be far too narrow a scope for this. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, the main point here is that when a non-banned editor takes the banned person's text and adds it, they have the chance to put that text up under their own responsibility. Now that means that Nick, making this edit, can be held to account if there are clear BLP violations or something, but you'd have to show that. I think it should be a bedrock principle that when an editor in good standing adds valid content, there is no action that can or should be taken against that - there's nothing more fundamentally what Misplaced Pages is for than this. We don't rip out all the contributions a banned user has made to our existing articles at the moment of the ban; the text, if acceptable, stands. We can't allow tactical thinking to get so out of control that it attacks the encyclopedia instead of defending it. Wnt (talk) 18:58, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Editor has little grasp of WP:BLP policy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Monart (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After being blocked for edit warring to introduce BLP violations, , , , (note misleading edit summaries and this conversation), Monart moved to Álvaro Sobrinho. They removed sourced rebuttals and I warned them about this particular edit. Less than an hour ago he posted this on my talk page. The two sources he posted earlier do not come close to backing up his assertions. Can something be done? --NeilN 05:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

As for my editing at Misplaced Pages: I am committed to the truth and no whitewashing. Monart (talk) 06:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I only looked at a couple of the diffs. They're pretty bad. Here, (no edit summary), it seems that he simply removes what he doesn't happen to like. And this nugget: Everybody in Portugal knows that. These are pure facts and every child in Portugal know that. Let me do my edits, I am a profound connaisseur of these things. Uh, no. Neither profundity nor connoisseurship. -- Hoary (talk) 06:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

And who is the one that put whitewashing edits in here? Be sure it is the person itself and he knows why! Just ridiculous what you are teling me. Monart (talk) 07:21, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Monart, let me check if I understand correctly. Knowing what everybody (indeed every child) in Portugal knows, you are a profound connoisseur of the truth. The truth may be unpleasant. If material conflicts with the truth, then it whitewashes the truth. Anything that whitewashes the truth, you remove with no explanation. Have I got that right? If not, which part have I got wrong? -- Hoary (talk) 07:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

ok, I understand what you mean. I am removing those parts in the article telling blablabla, just to confuse the reader and saying him how wonderful this person is. But here in Portugal this person has a negative taste. Like that - without removing blablabla - other important (negative) facts do not become relevant. This what I mean with whitewashing. Telling blablabla to make others mad. Monart (talk) 13:21, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

What you write makes no sense whatever. Read Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:No original research, and Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. Nobody's interested in claims that everybody in Portugal knows W, that X is obvious, that Y makes you mad, that you are a profound connoisseur of Z, etc etc. If by contrast you want to write according to your personal experience of the truth, do so on some other website. -- Hoary (talk) 14:01, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I will do what ist right, and nobody tells me where I have to do it. Do you understand? Monart (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

If you wish to edit Misplaced Pages, you will be required to comply with our policies. Do you understand? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:49, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Monart's persistent WP:BLP violations show that they don't understand Misplaced Pages policy, and their posts above show they have no wish to learn. Indefinitely blocked. Bishonen | talk 21:28, 21 October 2014 (UTC).
  • Good block, Bishonen. -- Hoary (talk) 23:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

User Borsoka used sockpuppets

User Borsoka used suckpuppets in the Talk page of the Origins of Romanians, section called "What would be a neutral first sentence?". Name of suckpuppet: Thehoboclown and probably other names. Using suckpuppets Borsoka tried to show that majority of favorable comments. Thehoboclown also made illegal warnings.

Thehoboclown stated a few lines near Borsoka (similar phrases was used formerly by Borsoka):

"You might not realized, but your edits are clearly against the consensus and appears to be a POV push. You also might not understood, but the two theories are on the same level – there's no main view and other views, and shall be present accordingly. It is not the editors' work to decide whether a theory is more likely, "better" or whatever – theories must be present neutrally and it's up to the reader how s/he interprets it. Do not give undue weight to one theory over all others. Also, if you have objections, please raise them on the talk page rather than blindly reverting the widely accepted, consensus based version. In accordance with this, I have to note that you are close to edit-warring – if you continue your disruptive behaviour and go against the consensus instead of participating in the improvement of the article on the talk page I won't be shy to make the necessary steps needed in these cases. Please consider it as an official warning. Thehoboclown (talk)"

An investigation must start because of the weird influence of the Borsoka's suckpuppets in the pages of Origins of Romanians. Eurocentral (talk) 05:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

What do suckpuppets suck? Do they suck mental energy out of Misplaced Pages editors? Do they suck drama out of the drama boards (which might be good)? Or do they just suck the ability to spell a common Misplaced Pages abuse? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Omigod! An editor who may or may not speak English as his first language, and who spends very little time on drama boards, has misspelled a term of art that has very little use in regular discourse. Quickly! We must rush to ridicule him. Not cool, Robert McClenon; you're usually so much better than that. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Urban DB: suckpuppet - although I don't think this is what OP is referring to. Ivanvector (talk) 14:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to make sure you, Eurocentral, know two things. First, phrases like "consensus", "POV push", "undue weight", "edit warring", "disruptive" are used in Misplaced Pages policies and therefore quoted by quite a lot of editors. Second, accusing other editors of sockpuppetry without lots of evidence is a personal attack. Considering you haven't presented a shred of evidence besides "Boroska used similar phrases at one point and they share similar opinions" (and you haven't quoted or presented a diff of one of Boroska's comments yet!) I find it hard to take your complaints seriously. --Richard Yin (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I have notified the editors you are reporting. Stickee (talk) 06:02, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Eurocentral, I informed you on my Talk page how you should have initiated the sock puppet investigation against me (by the way, Thehoboclown is not my sockpuppet and I am not his sockpuppet). I would like to ask administrators to investigate Eurocentral's behaviour in WP. As I mentioned earlier (here under the sub-subtitle "WP:NOTHERE: Eurocentral") Eurocentral is not here to build an encycopedia, but to destroy it. Yesterday I reported him for breaking WP:3RR. Interestingly, administrators have applied no sanctions against him either during the previous ANI, or during this last one. If Eurocentral's behaviour is acceptable in our community, I think that I should also change drastically my behaviour because I do not want to stay unprotected against an uncivil editor. Borsoka (talk) 06:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

By the way, Eurocentral, would you share your experiences when you were used during a long period as a sockpuppet by the banned user Iaaasi ()? Borsoka (talk) 06:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is indeed a remarkable diff. Was Iaaasi merely fantasizing? If not, was Eurocentral what's called a meatpuppet hereabouts, and if he was, then how long did the meatpuppetry continue? (We do try to be polite, and thus avoid the term "suckpuppet".) -- Hoary (talk) 06:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Eurocentral's accusations are blatant lies. I have already expressed my opinion about him, here. Fakirbakir (talk) 08:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Obvious WP:BOOMERANG. The article was put up for RfC and I put my two cents in – just like 3 or 4 other users. Then, after reaching a consensus and rewriting the lead accordingly, Eurocentral started to restore the version he preferred, for what he got polite but clear warnings, including mine (above).

It rather tells a lot about his approach to wikipedia, that this single contribution of mine led him to accuse Borsoka and me with sockpuppetting. Considering he did not submit an SPI, it pretty much looks like he tries to discredit certain users, even via such kind of personal attacks. Though, it's not unique from him, as he described Borsoka as "A commentator with 2 faces. Of course he will add the aid of his Hungarian colleagues in order to introduce his nationalistic ideas" or "Some hungarians, furious of their nomadic origin, see nomads in old Europe!!", making me to think that he lacks certain competences that are necessary to be a Wikipedian, including factual, social and bias-based competences.

To put up the issue on the ANI noticeboard thus escalating his disruptive behaviour also underlines his battleground mentality – he is not only unable to accept the consensus and unable to work in cooperation, but ready to go the furthest just to discredit and to throw the mud on others. Thehoboclown (talk) 10:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

There were only usual edits:by the way, I asked commentators to put at the Talk page (Geographic space) of the Origins of Romanians, anything they want for a complete space (I proposed Dacia for continuity and Roman provinces for other theories). But there were NO replies. Instead there were accusations ! Again I ask commentators to add something to debate about geographic space. Only debates. I have a lot of references about this topic

Also Borsoka refused phrases (presented in the Romanian history pages) to be added in the Hungarian history pages. He wrote about a lot of disputes between Romanian and Hungarian historians, but he refused to show these disputes in the Hungarian pages. This kind of double dealers are not useful when approaching Romanian and Hungarian history. Eurocentral (talk) 12:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC) Eurocentral (talk) 12:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Eurocentral, after a consensus was reached by other editors during an RfC, you declared that you want to return to your original version () and soon opened a new subtitle on the same subject on the same Talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AOrigin_of_the_Romanians&diff=628758492&oldid=628757023). Within six hours I responded you under the new subtitle (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_the_Romanians&diff=next&oldid=628758492). Even so, you returned to your version in the article (]), thus ignoring the consensual text agreed upon by other editors. Eurocentral, as I have times mentioned to you (), you are always abusing scholars' names in order to substantiate your own original research: in the "Origin of the Romanian" article Gottfried Schramm is cited in connection with a debate over the Romanians' ethnogenesis, you copied the same sentence to the "Hungarian Conquest of the Carpathian Basin" article, although Schramm did not write of debates among historians in connection with the Hungarian Conquest. As I mentioned to you, you cannot refer to Schramm in connection with all debates between Romanian and Hungarian historians, because he did not write about (for instance) Gelou which is also subject to scholarly debate between Romanian and Hungarian historians (). Borsoka (talk) 13:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Schramm has a general appreciation of relations between Romanian and Hungarian historians based on political bases ! You

changed the Schramm ideas. Here is an important issue of Hungarian history pages: the lack of objectivity (as I wrote in the Talk pages of Carpathian conquest...) You brought a lot of observations against statements of Romanian historians in Romanian pages but you erased all observations made by Romanian historians in the Hungarian pages. This is a lack of objectivity characteristic to a non objective person. You need to understand that WIKI needs equal politics in all pages. Eurocentral (talk) 05:14, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Eurocentral, would you verbatim cite what Schramm writes and in what context? Would you demonstrate how I changed Schramm's ideas? Would you also list the cases when I deleted any "observations made by Romanian historians in the Hungarian pages"? You are always making empty declarations and accusations. You are always declaring wars. You are not here to build an encyclopedia, but to destroy cooperation and to harass other editors. Borsoka (talk) 13:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

This is falling into a content dispute. Take that back to the page; focus on user conduct here. ansh666 17:21, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Ansh666, why do you think that the above statements about me ("double dealer", "non objective person", etc) can be regarded as a content dispute? Borsoka (talk) 17:38, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Because the main part of what you two are talking about is what sources can be used to cite a specific body of content - not an issue that can be dealt with here. ansh666 17:51, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. So any editor can make any statements of any other editor on this page without consequences. Interesting. I will remember it: "When in Rome do as the Romans do". Borsoka (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Admin Gamaliel - alleged misuse of tools

• There is also sufficient support for a topic ban for Andyvphil from all BLP articles. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is Gamaliel's statement about what happened, left on his talk page.

... my desire to assist the encyclopedia and my fellow editors and to protect living individuals who are written about here has come into conflict with my need to spend less time on Misplaced Pages. As a result, in regards to ((two very messy Misplaced Pages conflicts, both driven by outside agitation, the Gamergate controversy and the article on Neil DeGrasse Tyson)), I have made several egregious errors. Those errors, I now realize, have come about through my desire to help Misplaced Pages in the quickest way possible so I could return to my other obligations. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I took shortcuts to speed up my involvement which actually ended up wasting much more time for myself and other editors. I believe my motivations and the desired results were all appropriate ethically and conformed to Misplaced Pages norms and policies, but my circumventing or not completely following regular procedures was inappropriate and did more harm than good, to myself and others.

...

At Neil DeGrasse Tyson, the subject of the article has been repeatedly denigrated by a particular editor on the talk page. While I was an uninvolved party with Gamergate, at Tyson's article I voiced my opinion enough on the talk page that I felt it inappropriate to take certain actions like imposing a topic ban. What I should have done was immediately sought such a ban on WP:ANI, but instead I redacted a comment here, warned the user there, all actions that took little time, in hopes that the whole matter would go away on its own. My refusal to take the necessary steps required allowed this matter to escalate, until this editor posted a comment so egregious it required revision deletion, and then that editor came to my talk page to harangue me about it for three days until I finally blocked him for harassing me after repeated requests that he disengage. While given this editors behavior, I believe a block was appropriate and inevitable, at no point in this process did I take the appropriate actions required by process and policy to appropriately deal with this matter. My desire for a speedy resolution led to my taking a number of inappropriate actions and wasting a great deal of time for myself and a number of other editors...

...I ((was)) trying to do as much as possible in as little time as possible, and it has become abundantly clear to me this evening that my attempts to do so have caused me to make these significant errors of judgment. As a result, I think it is time for me to disengage from Misplaced Pages for a extended period of time, perhaps a month or more... I will continue to edit to fulfill my obligations to the Misplaced Pages Signpost and the Misplaced Pages Library as best I can, but I will try not to participate in general editing, administrative actions, or noticeboard discussions.

The "editor ((who)) posted a comment so egregious it required revision deletion", and who was subsequently blocked (and, unmentioned, unblocked) by Gamaliel, was me, the revision deletion is still in effect, and the first action I wish taken is that that revision deletion be reverted.

Gamaliel's engagement in the content disputes at Neil deGrasse Tyson amounted to significantly more than the "voic opinion... on the talk page" that he admits to. In particular, he reverted my second attempt, after more than a week of fruitless discussion, to repair an omission in the text with the comment, "I really don't have time for this bullshit right now." (The "bullshit" facts in question have since become fairly stable on the page, I believe, but you never know.) The significance of this is that is shows he was WP:INVOLVED and that his subsequent revdel of my response to a personal attack on my attempting to insert the material can be fairly interpreted as a violation of the "nutshell" at WP:Administrators, "Administrators are... expected... to use the tools fairly, and never to use them to gain advantage in a dispute."

The revdel was an action only available to an administrator, and as such Gamaliel was obligated to "((respond)) promptly and fully to all good-faith concerns raised about ((his)) administrative actions." I accordingly went to his talkpage and informed him that I would be objecting to the revdel and requested access to the deleted words so that I could properly defend them. (This is a link to a complete transclusion of my conversation with Gamaliel on his talk page which I did after the block as a way of representing it fully, despite his deletions of my postings, for the convenience of potentially unblocking admins.)((addition: Missing my last two comments, but with some Gamalael responses, see here.)) He declined to do so on the grounds that "providing you with those offensive comments would lead to... another soapbox to discuss negative, evidence-free theories about a living individual". He initially admitted that my inquiry had been a polite one, but rapidly descended into calumny, mischaracterizing what I had said, claiming that I had repeatedly made "racist" assertions, and "insist on making blanket racist assertions", while refusing to provide diffs of them, and threatened me with "blocking and/or profanity in multiple languages" if I did not "go away". He "archived" our conversation, deleted my further reminder to him of his "duty as an administrator to promptly and fully to all good-faith concerns raised about administrative actions" and, after I again reminded him "that 'go away' is an out-of-policy response to a civil inquiry as to administrative actions", deleted that and blocked me for 24 hours. Some time after that he unblocked me with the comment, "Harass away!".

Initially he protected his talk page so thet I could not, in fact, continue to "harass" him about his admin actions and continued unsupported insults, then he posted the text I excerpt above. I had by then decided it was past time to defend my reputation here.

So, (a) I would like my response to this personal attack restored to the record. And, (b) I would like to initiate whatever process is necessary to deprive Gamaliel of his admin tools, until such time as a period of good behavior may indicate he can again be trusted with them. Andyvphil (talk) 07:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I have posted the revdel'd response to a personal attack, here, off-Wiki: http://prntscr.com/4yjo8c .

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a place to settle scores or kick an admin whom you think has melted down. Apparently you made a reply to a post by Marteau at Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson four days ago. The post was this, and your reply was rev-deleted. You raised the issue with the admin (Gamaliel) who deleted your comment in a discussion which can be seen here. The first reply you received included "You have repeatedly suggested that a prominent and successful academic of color was a failure as an academic and only succeeded as a result of affirmative action, despite ample evidence of his achievments in his field. This is incredibly offensive and racist, even if you do not mean it to be, and I find it particularly offensive personally as an academic who is a racial minority myself."

What benefit to the encyclopedia would result from pursuing this issue further?

TP emailed the deleted comment to you, and then removed it from his talk after (apparently) you posted it there. He then requested that you do not post it (diff). Why would you want the comment restored? Johnuniq (talk) 09:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

You have picked a remarkably tendentious and misleading path through the facts of this incident. In your quote from Gamalael he asserts I have made racist statements repeatedly. He revdel'd only one posting. If what he says is true it should not have been difficult to find another. He hasn't done so, you haven't done so, it can't be done. And when the revdel is reversed it will be seen that what he describes did not happen on that occasion either. Andyvphil (talk) 14:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• What a nasty section heading. Objective3000 (talk) 11:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you the one that changed it? It's understood, I expect, that that the header is written by the individual filing the charge. I don't see where "possible" has been inserted in anyone else's header. Gamalieal abused the tools. That's what I said. On what grounds and with what authority are you saying that I can't say THAT, either? Andyvphil (talk) 14:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Quite honestly, Andyvphil, you are very lucky to have avoided a topic ban; if this matter ever got to arbitration I think it highly likely that you would be banned from editing BLPs in general, never mind just this article. I've had only a small amount of involvement in the discussions but I've been struck by how aggressive you have been, not only towards other editors, but towards the article's subject, for whom you appear to have a very strong dislike. It's been a textbook example of how not to approach a BLP. For your own sake I would suggest you pipe down or you may find this latest complaint WP:BOOMERANGing against you. If it did it would be well deserved. Prioryman (talk) 12:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

"Go away" from Gamaliel, "Pipe down" from you. You and your friend are an arrogant pair. I hope that at least you don't have the admin bit. Andyvphil (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Prioryman is a former administrator and long-term contributor to this site — he's been editing for 11 years as of this month — but that's beside the point. There is a very broad consensus that your edits have been inflammatory. As the saying goes: "If you find yourself trapped in a hole, you might want to stop digging..." Kurtis 02:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• If you think your ridiculous (and frankly racist) BLP violation that was rev-deleted will (a) be restored, and (b) is at all appropriate at Misplaced Pages, I suspect the only action here will be a BLP topic ban boomeranging back very quickly. I've seen people blocked for less. Black Kite (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Another guy who calls me "racist" without evidence. I've seen comments revdel'd for less. Indeed, mine were. Andyvphil (talk) 15:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Black Kite is pretty clear here: your BLP violation was racist, they say, and I happen to agree. A procedure wonk like you should appreciate the careful phrasing. What this says about you, that's up to you to decide. Drmies (talk) 18:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

To quote a word I've heard a couple times during this incident, "Bullshit". Andyvphil (talk) 07:39, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• What the heck is wrong with you that you would think that opening this here was a good idea? After everything that you have done, and were unblocked on a legit technicality and the good faith of others believing you were not meaning to make racist claims, you come here with this garbage? I've been following this on the TNG, Gamaliel and TP Talk pages. You have been given every benefit of the doubt but this is too much. If you do not understand that your edit was at the very least a gross BLP violation and can be considered race baiting, then you should be topic banned from all BLPs. Sheesh. Dave Dial (talk) 14:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

You possess a copy of what I wrote? Or are you taking Gamaliel's word for it?Andyvphil (talk) 15:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• • I think the editors above are ignoring the issue. What Andyphil did is not the issue. Gamaliel clearly abused his powers as an admin. He blocked an editor for posting on his talk page and then flippantly unblocked when basically forced, finally locking his own talk page. Gamaliel could have easily reported Andyphil for harassing him on his talk page. Admins are given powerful tools. When those tools are misused the system suffers. Thus the question is, "Does Gamaliel suffer any consequence for the misuse of his Admin tools or do the actions of Andyphil justify the misuse of the Admin tools?" I think you have to be careful about justifying the misuse of tools simply because you don't like the other person. Arzel (talk) 14:10, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Well, very simply because this isn't the venue for any attempt to remove admin tools; that needs to be ArbCom. This page can, however, deal with an editor who from a reading of that talk page is clearly not neutral regarding the subject, is persistently angling for negative material to be included, and on the occasion mentioned above - which has been rev-deleted - went right over the BLP line. Black Kite (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Policy is that what we write be NPOV, not that we are "neutral regarding the subject". Gamalael is not "neutral regarding the subject". Apparently he identifies way too strongly ("I find it particularly offensive personally...", see above) to maintain self-control in his use of the tools. Andyvphil (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

So is the issue about not understanding our BLP Policy or that you're angry about being blocked by what you claim is an involved admin? For the sake of perfection I agree that it would have been better to get someone else to do the block, but there has been little disagreement that your block was correct. I think you're beating dead horse at this point and recommend you find a way to move on.--MONGO 15:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The issue is that Gamaliel blatantly misused his tools and shows no sign of recognizing that he did so. As to why at this point he does not understand BLP policy, I have not a clue as to his mental processes. Andyvphil (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

So wait, you're taking a post he made that says "I screwed up, here are the ways I could have done this better" and interpreting it to mean that he shows no sign of recognizing that he screwed up? Something isn't computing here if that's your argument. I agree - and he seems to agree too - that his taking actions himself wasn't ideal, but unless you can establish a repeated history of tool misuse - in which case you should be talking to Arbcom, not ANI - then his acknowledging his mistake, apologizing, and saying how he plans to avoid this problem in the future seems to pretty well have resolved this issue before you ever opened this thread. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Never mind incivility and the refusal to substantiate accusations of blatant repeated racism, his unreasonable refusal to provide me with the text of my own words so that could defend them, his failure to recognize that policy required explanations of his actions as an administrator that weren't plainly falsehoods... yeah, never mind all that and things are pretty much resolved. Not. Andyvphil (talk) 15:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• I haven't been following this at all; I read a good chunk of the NDGT talk page just now but frankly tl;dr. What I see is that Andyvphil repeatedly and disruptively demanded to frame a BLP in a POV which the sources did not support, despite being asked to stop by a large number of editors, and was blocked after posting an egregiously racist comment (as it's been described here; I can't see it). The blocking admin admits that they did not follow proper procedure, and it's pretty clear they were WP:INVOLVED, but I fully support Gamaliel's action as entirely appropriate per WP:IAR and WP:BLPREMOVE. For their history of negative editorializing on the talk page, and then coming here to demand action against the admin and demanding that the egregiously racist comment be restored, I also fully support topic-banning Andyvphil from this subject or from all BLPs, as they clearly don't understand that NPOV, BLP and WP:NOTFORUM are policies, and their repeated disruption is harming the project. Ivanvector (talk) 15:46, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

This clown fully supports banning me for an "egregiously racist" comment he hasn't seen. Sheesh. Andyvphil (talk) 15:59, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• My spidey sense is telling me that this thread is going to end with the OP indefinitely blocked...2607:FB90:2408:451E:4C78:7A90:F639:1B63 (talk) 15:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

This guy thinks he has a "spidey-sense", but apparently it doesn't tell him anything relevant to say on the subject. Andyvphil (talk) 16:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I think, from what I saw of the Tyson dispute, that Gamaliel was just at the end of his rope. Bearian (talk) 19:46, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Gamaliel seems to have snapped a bit under stress, caused in no small part by Andyvphil. An admin in such a situation (I've been there myself) deserves sympathy, not condemnation. Prioryman (talk) 21:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Mostly agreed, however, I feel the reporting editor would deserve the same consideration, at the least. I have a general concern of over involved-ness actions being taken recently, and in this situation there aren't many clean hands. Gamaliel has enunciated his mistakes in administration in his talk page statement, so I am confused why Andy seems to be the topic of conversation. Arkon (talk) 01:08, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Topic Ban of Andyvphil

I believe I've seen all I need to from Andyvphil, just from this thread, to get the impression that he has absolutely no interest in following our policies on WP:BLP or WP:NPOV. Several editors, above, have proposed and supported the idea of a topic ban, and I'm calling that question. I am not calling for a block or community ban, despite the fact that an editor who fights for the inclusion of obviously racist statements and responds to criticism by calling other names isn't usually long for this project. But I believe the application of discretionary sanctions here is justified. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

"...fights for the inclusion of obviously racist statements..." Diffs, please. Sheesh. Andyvphil (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

And, without diffs, or an immediate retraction, you ought to be a candidate for BOOMERANG yourself. Of course, the shameless disinterest in Gamaliel's obvious misuse of his tools on display so far (with one(1) exception) doesn't indicate that "ought" has the big battalions. Shameful, too. Andyvphil (talk) 16:49, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

See below. I don't know whether Gamaliel's actions were right or wrong, and I made no mention of them. This thread is about your edits, and every single one of them seems to prove my point. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

What part of "diffs" for "...fights for the inclusion of obviously racist statements..." is beyond your ken? Or, lets make it even easier, how about quoting one of those "obviously racist statements" (they weren't all in the revdel, were they?) that I've fought to include, so we know what you're talking about, instead of just having dark insinuations? Andyvphil (talk) 17:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

For the benefit of those of us who don't want to wade through the wall of text upthread, could you please clearly state the scope of the proposed topic ban? —Psychonaut (talk) 16:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Given that the edit is revdel'ed, that would be difficult. Andyvphil posted disparaging remarks about a living person at the talk page for that person's article, and did so without citing sources or proof to support those assertions. The remarks had racial overtones, in that (from my reading) they implied that the subject's success is due to their race, rather than due to any other factor. That's bad, and the kerfuffle that resulted involved Andyvphil being blocked and unblocked by the admin under discussion above. But what cemented the issue for me is the fact that, in virtually every edit to this discussion, Andyvphil has defended his statement. He has repeatedly assured us that it will be restored (spoiler: that is unlikely), and has failed to even acknowledge that BLP might apply to such comments about a living person. Given that he misunderstands our policies so thoroughly, I don't see how he can be permitted to edit any BLP, or on any topic involving a BLP. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Or you could just unrevdel it, or put it (or authorize me to put it) in my user space or here, for examination. It's not shocking. No possibility whatever attaches of Misplaced Pages being sued. Andyvphil (talk) 05:03, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support. This individuals actions here and this thread plus the rev del comment (discussed above) indicates that he should be banned at least from NDGT or more preferably from BLP in general. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban. I am enormously unimpressed by what I've seen and think at the very minimum, a 3 or 6 month ban would be sensible to protect the project and allow Andyvphil to get up to speed on the policy and moral implications of the BLP policy. Nick (talk) 16:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I defer to consensus on the duration - and would not object to an indefinite topic ban. But 6 months would be the minimum, I think. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:34, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, was thinking (but didn't write it down) that it would be indefinite with opportunity to appeal (or the ban be reviewed) after 3 or 6 months, rather than a ban which expired after 3 or 6 months. Nick (talk) 16:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban - I agree with Nick that at the very minimum this should be the result. Perhaps after 6 months if the editor understands BLP policies, the topic ban can be lifted. But I think the editor must understand the violations made here. Dave Dial (talk) 16:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• involved neutral/weak oppose Andy certainly needs an attitude adjustment as the tone of his comments above indicates, but his core complaints are not without merit. There are sources (including direct statements from NDGT ) backing the information Andy wants to include (being flunked/kicked out, etc) . He may have crossed a line in the way he discussed those items on the talk page, but I am not sure this justifies an indefinite topic ban. There may be weight or editorial judgement arguments against inclusion for the information about Tyson, but the repeated characterization of anything negative about him being a BLP Violation is weak sauce at this point. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

You do realize I haven't had anything to do with that section of NDT since Gamaliel reverted me on October 17? Andyvphil (talk) 17:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - A decent percentage of contributions to mainspace but almost all to highly contentious topics, which is a bad sign. It would be good to see what precise editing has been done to Barack Obama, for example, before conclusions are drawn. Carrite (talk) 17:10, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

LOL! Have I edited Barack Obama since 2008? I remember arguing for including the description in the New York Times that his church was "Afrocentric" and being told (this was before the chickens came home to roost) that his religion was irrelevant. Misplaced Pages being a reality-free zone didn't start in 2014. But it's gotten worse. Andyvphil (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

His religion is Christian. You got a problem with that? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Jeremiah Wright? Chickens? "God damn America!"? You could look it up. Andyvphil (talk) 17:34, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

If you had even the vaguest clue of what black people have had to put up with in this country, and still do, you might understand why Wright said that. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:49, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Gotta run for now, folks. Have fun. Andyvphil (talk) 17:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Andy you are not helping your situation with those comments. Take a deep breath and relax. Arzel (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I am relaxed. The three-minute hate is amusing and will, I hope, prove instructive. Andyvphil (talk) 00:34, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Most this is a disagreement about whether Andyvphil actually made acutely racist remarks. Since 2008 he has apparently been editing without any similar accusations, and now because of this the mob is out to burn him at the stake. Granted I don't agree with his approach on this issue, but he does have a valid argument for being upset and simply wants justification for what he feels is an abuse of Administration tools. Put down the torches and try to understand why he is so upset. Arzel (talk) 17:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Hold it Now, I'm not one to support racism - at all. I oppose anything that counteracts equality. That said, we're swirling down a drain here. Andyvphil has repeatedly asked Gamaliel for diffs, and in this thread has asked all of you for diffs. The responses have been:
  • "you may find this latest complaint WP:BOOMERANGing against you"
  • "your ridiculous (and frankly racist) BLP violation that was rev-deleted"
  • "believing you were not meaning to make racist claims"
  • "This thread is about your edits, and every single one of them seems to prove my point."
• I'm not saying we don't topic ban Andyvphil. I'm saying let's do this the proper way so we're on morally high ground even if Andyvphil isn't. We arn't better people simply for having a knee jerk reaction that makes everyone feel good. We are only better people when we follow procedure. If someone would do the work to collect diffs, there could be no opposition. The response to me needs to be diffs, not more talk. Assertions and accusations prove nothing, only diffs.--v/r - TP 17:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I thought the diff had been revdel'd. Tiderolls 17:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

It has been. This diff from his talk page seems to sum up the sentiment rather well. Negative assertions about the subject without RS. We don't just throw theories about for fun, especially when the subject is a living person. Surely other diffs exist, and some are discussed below. This is the (un-revdel'ed) one that stood out to me. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The revdel'd diff looked a bit weak to me to call this editor a racist. It amounted to saying that the sources support the fact that NDGT didn't complete his first thesis. And then a question that could be seen as race baiting but could have been a honest question. However, seeing the editor's comments about B.O. above regarding "afrocentric" church - I just give up. This editor is obviously race-minded and I'm not interested in wasting my energy anymore.--v/r - TP 19:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Did you miss the bit about "afrocentric" being being a quote from that racist publication, the NEW YORK TIMES? And that omitting that entirely demure characterization of the Rev. Wright's church disimproved the article by failing to provide any hint of the fact that Obama was going to a church which featured a pastor who palled around with Louis Farrakhan and Gaddafi and who characterized 9/11 as "the chickens coming home to roost"? Even if you think Wright was perfectly right in his every act and word, what was the justification in hiding the facts from Misplaced Pages's readers, before reality forced its way onto the page, albeit still through a determinedly hagiographic filter? Andyvphil (talk) 01:02, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: That's not to say I approve of Gamaliel's involved block. I don't. But I am willing to give Gamaliel the benefit of the doubt that this was an out of character emotionally driven bad judgement call that he can be forgiven for. No pattern of this type of behavior exists for Gamaliel.--v/r - TP 19:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban (involved) I have read the removed edit and never want to see it again in an encyclopedia. I find the fact that he wants to defend it disturbing. But, even before that edit, I thought two previous edits appeared racist in nature and asked him to explain them. And ignoring anything to do with race, his constant hostility disrupted an already difficult discussion, likely harming his own case. Objective3000 (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support BLP Neil deGrasse Tyson topic ban. The material Andyvphil wants to add may be verifiable but he insists that the article must use the negative terms he selects, and does so in a way that reveals his racist motivation for framing the subject in a negative POV, and absolutely refuses to drop the stick when numerous editors point out that this is wholly inappropriate behaviour in general, not just on Misplaced Pages. If he cannot see through his bias then he should not edit BLPs. Ivanvector (talk) 18:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Some more of Andy's negative editorializing: , , Ivanvector (talk) 19:02, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

It is not true that I insisted on my "negative terms". Nor do I see anything at the diff you characterize as "reveal my racist motivation" that reveals anything other than a remarkable... or, in this environment, apparently unremarkable... willingness to characterize political differences as "racist". Andyvphil (talk) 01:40, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Revised: Having gone through Andy's contribs to find those diffs, I find that he's quite capable of editing civilly and constructively, and capable of wading through disputes, and blocking him from editing BLPs would overall be a detriment to the project. However, the diffs show he's got a hate on for NDGT, and he should not edit related articles. Generally he would be well-advised to take a break when the editing gets hot, but he's not unlike a lot of other editors in this regard, and I don't think further sanctions would be of any benefit. Ivanvector (talk) 19:05, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I plead guilty to having a more negative view of Tyson than is common among Misplaced Pages's editors. Now, if this had resulted in combat "for the inclusion of obviously racist statements", that would be a problem. Howver, that's just a falsehood. A lie. And there's no basis in policy for the proposition that Tyson's article be entrusted solely to his admirers. Andyvphil (talk) 04:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. First, nobody has even attempted to make a case for a topic ban, they've just put it up for a vote and restated what look like WP:INVOLVED positions both on the substance of the article content and the biographical subject of the article, and also on what looks to be an unwise administrative action. The only obvious misstep of Andyvphil here is a WP:STICK violation, something that's usually cured by ignoring it and waiting a couple days. Second, this looks like a ganging up and hasty advocacy, a zealous application of WP:BOOMERANG to feed the schadenfreude of AN/I, not a serious attempt to protect living people or avoid disruption on the encyclopedia. Missing are any of the preliminary steps of gaining consensus, de-escalating things, calming down, incremental behavioral actions, remedies like bans being a last resort, etc. Third, a BLP ban is effectively a ban from the encyclopedia because every article, arguably, implicates living people. It is a stretch to say that the content issue that brought everyone here falls within BLP; if people will stretch it that far in order to topic ban somebody, they will stretch it again next time they advocate for a block or a full ban. A ban imposed by !vote, without even a clear statement of what the ban proposal is based on, would set a bad precedent for the community and it would not have much legitimacy. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

  Incidentally, if this concerns a long-term editing problem, the right way to do that is through an RfC/U. If it's about the one allegedly racist comment that was deleted, we can't reasonably judge as a community something we haven't seen. The deleting administrators should have dealt with any behavioral issues at the time, not here. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban For tendentious and disruptive conduct. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support BLP topic ban or indefinite NOTHERE block, whichever comes first. I have seen the edit (thank you for removing it Gamaliel, and Andyvphil's continued defense of it is evidence that they have no business editing BLPs. One wonders also why they need the text sent to them--don't they remember what they said? Anyway, TParis asked for diffs--I'll point to a section, Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#Tyson_a_.22Washout.22.3F. The obstinate re-insertion of profoundly unencyclopedic language here suggests this also, and I have noted elsewhere that I think the connotations of "wash out", which one typically does to remove dirt, are highly unsavory if not downright racist. Not everyone agrees on that reading, but I find it strong enough to support a BLP ban. In addition, they have 67 edits on that talk page, many of them concerned with what I can only see as an attempt to sully the man's reputation, and others are simply disruptive, such as this one--they edit-warred with three admins (me, Black Kite, Gamaliel) to reinstate some trolling left by an indef-blocked editor. So, what I see is obstinacy, edit warring, disruption, and lack of grasp of the BLP policy; a ban on editing BLPs would be a good start. Drmies (talk) 18:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Drmies As always great respect for you and your work here, but in regards to the diff of the actual change to the article - it is directly supported by Tyson's own words in two separate interviews. (see my comment above linking to both interviews) - Tyson himself described this as getting "kicked out" twice. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• No respect necessary, but Andyvphil's preferred phrasing was not "kicked out". I believe that's a huge difference. Drmies (talk) 19:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Your reading of my suggestion of the phrase "washed out" as a better alternative to the "essentially flunked out" and "kicked out" used by the sources as meaning I want to call Tyson "dirt" is imaginative. To assert that I was being "downright racist" and should be banned for saying something so "unsavory", when I have explained my offered word choice in terms that do not involve "dirt" indicates the kind of lack of good judgement and self control that has caused me to suggest previously that you turn in your bit. Andyvphil (talk) 02:02, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban, despite having my own issues with Andyvphil. I have yet to see diffs supporting the allegation that he "fights for the inclusion of obviously racist statements." That is a serious charge indeed, but one that I have seen nothing to support. With that said, I would strongly encourage Andyvphil to work on the tone he takes during discussions, no matter what provocation he feels merits the combative tone he often takes. LHM 18:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

  Additional comment: The phrase "washed out" is not racist in any way. It is used when someone fails at something, whether it be at a career, a sport, or the pursuit of a PhD at some university. I myself could be considered to have "washed out" as an business owner. It simply describes what happened as a result of not completing something one was attempting to complete. LHM 18:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from Neil deGrasse Tyson. Andyvphil's editing of that article and its talk page has come up here repeatedly. I can see the rev-deleted edit to the talk page, and although I have seen more blatantly racist statements in my time, it was unacceptable and no source was offered whatsoever; and the editor has a history of statements regarding this living person that indicate bias. It is my hope that a topic ban here will serve as enough of a wake-up call that we will not need to broaden the topic ban, for example to BLPs in general, but the disruption at the Tyson article needs to be stopped and the editor shows no sign of stopping it. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban. I have not seen ANY diffs suggesting that he pushed for the inclusion of racist language of any kind. Is he a bit aggressive on talk pages, yes (and he needs a good warning about that from the community). But a BLP topic ban is WAY to far (even a Neil Tyson topic ban would probably be too far). I should also note he was clearly blocked by an WP:INVOLVED administrator, that's likely to make anyone angry, so he should be given a little slack for his response. It doesn't seem to have been enough of a (or a serious enough) violation to WP:Desysop but that doesn't mean it was right. So far there have been two things that he has been accused of racism, and I don't think either charge is accurate.

1. As diffed above he inserted language containing the words "washed out" to describe Neil Tyson's early Phd experience. The article he cited used the term "essentially flunking him", and quoted Tyson himself as saying they "kicking me out". One can complain that "washed out" isn't encyclopedic enough, but it cannot possibly be considered racism to use that term. I refer you to which defines the term as: "Having dropped a project or an enterprise or having been dropped from one: a washed-out officer candidate."
2. He has also at times suggested that Neil Tyson got into Columbia University because he is black. Columbia University implemented its first Affirmative Action Plan in 1972. Is it really a stretch to believe that the fact that he is a minority helped him in being accepted in 1988? Now maybe he could have been accepted anyway (entirely possible, we don't know). But it is not racist to comment on what, in reality, seems likely to have occurred (that his race helped him in getting acceptance). That doesn't take away from the many accomplishments that Neil Tyson had after he was accepted, but just what is at least likely to have occurred (as with many minorities).

Lastly, as to #1 above, this was already litigated against User:Andyvphil in arbitration enforcement and with the result that it was "Not actionable". We do not have jurisdiction in this forum to overturn the decision made according to the processes of Arbitration Committee. If there is a disagreement that what was inserted in that case was actually actionable, it should be brought up before the Arbitration Committee, or as a part of arbitration enforcement.

In summary: 1) Neither of the things he is has been accused of (with diffs) are racist 2) He is being accused of things already litigated in arbitration enforcement which we don't have the authority to overturn at this page.--Obsidi (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Regarding your #2: We don't know. We don't have a source that says he was accepted because of Affirmative Action, or that it contributed to his acceptance. Andy's (and now your) assertion "that his race helped him in getting acceptance" "seems likely to have occurred" "as with many minorities" is WP:SYNTH, for one thing, but also definitely racist and a horrible thing to say about someone, and definitely in violation of WP:BLP. Please don't repeat it. Ivanvector (talk) 19:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree we don't know, and we don't have evidence of it. I would also oppose inculcation into the page as WP:SYNTH, but that doesn't in and of itself make the comments on what reasonable seems likely to have occurred to be racist. It may not be encyclopedic, and it shouldn't be included in our articles because we don't have verifiable information that it actually helped him getting enrolled, but it isn't racist. --Obsidi (talk) 19:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec) It is in fact racism to assert that for any given black person, it is more likely than not that that person's achievements were a product of affirmative action. On the other hand, if there's evidence that a specific black person's achievements were a product of affirmative action, that would not be racism. Dyrnych (talk) 19:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Is being accepted by Columbia University really even an achievement? Graduating from Columbia University is a clear achievement (on in which there seems no doubt he accomplished all on his own). But being accepted is just being given the chance to try. As to what the odds that affirmative action occurred, we have no idea. --Obsidi (talk) 20:01, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. We have no idea. And therefore to suggest such is not only synthesis, but a BLP violation. Black Kite (talk) 20:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

But is it racist? I don't disagree that it shouldn't be included in the article, but that is different then racism. --Obsidi (talk) 20:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It sure is. It's taking one characteristic of NDGT (race) and supposing that it is the most likely reason why a particular outcome occurred, with no evidence at all for that supposition. Look at it this way: it's exactly the same principle as seeing a black woman and saying "she must be on welfare" or a black teenager and saying "he must be a thug." Dyrnych (talk) 20:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe, if I remember right, that he said it was a "contributory factor" to his acceptance to Columbia (different then even "most likely reason why" he was accepted), and as such, if it is as I remember it, different then your analogy. "must be on welfare" says what is the case without knowing it to be so. Far different then even saying "likely" (which assigns a probability to the situation), even "likely" may be racist if it is unsupported by facts that make it likely. In this case, Columbia seems to have chosen to add race as a factor in considering admission of students. Maybe that didn't matter in Neil Tyson's case (because he had other great work that got him in), but can you really say that race wasn't a "contributory factor" that Columbia considered in deciding on if to admit him or not? --Obsidi (talk) 20:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I strongly disagree. You suggest it's reasonable to assume that the subject's acceptance to a program of academic excellence must have been aided by the colour of his skin, rather than based on the merits of his application, such that it's reasonable to assume an equivalent application from a white person would not have been accepted. It's a terrible thing to say, and posting it as an editorial to a talk page here is awful. It could easily be a slip, nobody's perfect here, but Andy's history of negative commentary about this subject makes me think otherwise. Ivanvector (talk) 20:02, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Even assuming he was given affirmative action bonus, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have gotten in without it. Its reasonable to assume that he got an affirmative action bonus to his application (given we know he is a minority and that the school in question had an affirmative action policy at the time). Its unreasonable to assume that he couldn't have gotten in without that bonus (because we just don't know). Andy's should have been told that without evidence that he couldn't have gotten in without it (which if we had verifiable evidence of that, would change things), then we cannot include it. That doesn't make it racist to comment on the fact that he likely qualified for the affirmative action bonus, just that it isn't verifiable that it mattered. --Obsidi (talk) 20:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

If the article is about a white person, would you repeatedly suggest that it was nearly certain that he got into Columbia because his father was rich and sent him to a private school – with zero evidence of either? Andyvphil asked how a wash-out could have been accepted to Columbia, and said race must have something to do with it. Not, for example, that he was a Harvard grad. Of course this is racist. Objective3000 (talk) 20:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I disagree, it would be more like having evidence that he went to private school and was rich, and then saying that contributed to his being admitted. That shouldn't be included in the article without evidence, but it is not offensive. --Obsidi (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban - at a minimum. We need to call out tendentious editors. Bearian (talk) 19:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• This came up at AE recently. The accusation of racism were made there, as were allegations that Andyvphil was conducting a campaign to discredit the subject of the article. I asked for evidence of either, and got only a repetition of the allegations without any further evidence. What it seems to boil down to is an edit war other the term "washed out" (to which some editors appear to attach, no doubt in good faith, a connotation I simply don't see), a RevDel'd diff (that was, yes, beyond the pale, but not enough to justify this sort of sanction on its own), and an attitude problem bordering on a battleground mentality (as perfectly exemplified by the original post here). The attitude is going to piss people off, and if Andyvphl doesn't rectify it, is likely to get him sanctioned, but none of it is proof that there is any intent to discredit the subject. If anybody has more diffs which show a pattern of deliberate abuse of Misplaced Pages in the way being suggested, I'd have absolutely no qualms about indef'ing him. But nobody has presented a shred of evidence that that's the case. Like I say, there's evidence of misconduct which may be sanctionable if it continues, but not of the sort malice that is being suggested. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Weak oppose BLP ban. Like many others here, I have serious issues with Andyvphil's hostility towards other editors and with his tendentiousness. As I understand it, that's not what's being discussed here. I haven't seen the offending statement that precipitated this and generally agree with Lithistman's view that despite Andyvphil's strident advocacy of the probably-non-NPOV phrase "washed out," that advocacy itself does not rise to the level of advocating for the inclusion of racist material. Dyrnych (talk) 20:05, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Topic ban from Tyson as a minimum. In no way can we have an editor continue to work on this article when not only do they have a hugely negative view of the subject, but believe that it is OK to push completely unsourced BLP violating accusations that the subject's achievements were due to their race (apart from the egregious rev-deleted edit, the comment "Anyway, your speculation on how Tyson recovered from his failure is a nice story, but painfully pc in what it chooses to omit as a possible, indeed probable, indeed almost certain contributory factor." still exists on the talkpage). The fact that he refers to those disagreeing with him as "hagiographers" will give you an idea of how entrenched this is. Black Kite (talk) 20:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose It appears to me from reviewing the comments and allegations that this sanction is unwarranted. That this stems from a block by a WP:INVOLVED admin who has a history of taking actions while involved makes this look like an attempt to silence a critic of admin abuse.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support BLP ban. Andyvphil's approach to the Tyson BLP issue has been quite simply appalling; it's obvious that he has a very strong dislike for the subject of the article and has been relentless in pushing negative views. He has also been relentlessly antagonistic towards his fellow editors and has done much to poison the atmosphere on the talk pages concerned. I would support a topic ban from Tyson as a minimum, but quite honestly someone with his approach to BLPs has no business editing them. If this ever got to arbitation I've no doubt at all that he would be topic-banned. Prioryman (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support BLP ban. Comments like the revdeled edit and this demonstrate an apparent inability to work on the Tyson article constructively. Edit warring over BLP matters of the type seen here further support that conclusion. His comments about other editors in this discussion show someone with no interest in behaving by the expected standards. How much more evidence do we need to channel editors away from areas where they're demonstrably disruptive?--Cúchullain /c 21:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't that suggest a topic ban (that he had an "inability to work on the Tyson article"). And as for the two reverts, if you want to classify that as edit warring that's fine. But as to BLP matters I'll just quote the admin User:HJ_Mitchell when this was reviewed in WP:AE, as to the claimed BLP issue: "This appears to me to be yet another absurd interpretation of BLP, and an example of editors invoking BLP as a first resort in a content dispute rather than just editing the contentious material or starting a discussion." Aand I would also note that at least some of the ArbCom has expressed that if an explanation isn't given when requested that the normal rules around reverting BLP claims may not apply:Ambiguity regarding explanations in the BLP policy (in this case it took multiple prods by the admins just to get the explanation in WP:AE). Are you sure a BLP wide ban is more appropriate then a topic ban in this case? --Obsidi (talk) 22:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I would support a ban on articles related to Tyson as a minimum. However, the seriousness of his edits, his edit warring over sensitive BLP material, and his statements here in this discussion point to an individual who isn't going to abide by the standards we expect of people editing articles on living people. It's time to channel their energy away from areas where they're being disruptive, hopefully into areas where they won't be.--Cúchullain /c 01:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support indefinite BLP topic ban with option to appeal after six months. Like many others above, I've read the revdel'd post that Andyvphil and a couple of supporters keep calling for diffs for, with what sounds like some sense of triumph at being secure from that particular diff. Andy, all admins can read it, and you yourself surely remember it. (No?) UltraExactZZ, Nick, TParis, Drmies, Black Kite, Bearian, HJ Mitchell, and Cúchullain are admins, and me, and we have seen the diff in question before opining. Also, the diffs given above by Ivanvector, Drmies and Cúchullain, especially these diffs here (thank you for taking the trouble to collect them, Ivanvector) convince me that Andy should not be editing BLP articles. And his demeanor in this thread convinces me that, as Cúchullain puts it, he has no interest in behaving by the expected standards. Bishonen | talk 22:31, 21 October 2014 (UTC).
• Support, not just for the one revdeled edit (admins only) but as part of a pattern posted by Ivanvector. This editor should not be going near a BLP. No comment on the block, and no admin action needed unless that too can be shown to be a pattern. --John (talk) 22:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. As others have noted, I want to see some diffs here for what he was trying to stick into the article which was a BLP violation. The diffs I'm seeing are extremely weak as evidence that the user needs to be banned. He probably needs to be a bit more careful about stuff like this, but calling someone a racist because they asked a question about affirmative action and seeking a ban on them is way, way overboard, and figuring out the best way of wording "failed and left" is a legitimate discussion to be having wording-wise. If he is making problematic assertions in the article, that's one thing, but I'm not really seeing it here. It seems like this could have just been answered with "if you can find some reliable sources on this, please bring them to our attention; I can't find anything with a quick Google search, and you should be careful about asking questions which might be interpreted as unsubstantiated accusations per WP:BLP", rather than a big war over it. That being said, I have no history of interaction with him, so I can't really tell you if he is in fact problematic on a systematic basis. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:53, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
  • No one is calling them a racist, and Andyvphil didn't so much ask a question about affirmative action--they posited that a very notable and prominent person got into a graduate program only because of their race. And they did make "problematic assertions" in the article, as I indicated above. But suggesting "well at least they didn't to it in article space" makes me think whether you know our BLP policy, and where it applies (everywhere). Drmies (talk) 01:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

What is this "they", "them" business? I'm not a plural. The difference between "you insist on repeatedly making blatantly racist edits"(Gamalael,fair concatenation) and "you are a racist" is insignificant. The italicized "only" is something even Gamalael walked back when I challenged him on it, that you've nonetheless resurrected it is shameless. Andyvphil (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• • • That is not a fair summary to say that he said only. Arzel (talk) 02:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
• Topic ban from Tyson, per Black Kite. I've seen quite enough diffs. I suspect that Andyvphil would soon transfer his passionate interest to some other BLP and with similar effect; but unlike some editors, I'm not easily convinced of that which I don't have compelling evidence is true. If some other BLP did then get the same treatment, then move on to a BLP topic ban. -- Hoary (talk) 23:02, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support BLP topic ban. I have no comment on whether Andyvphil is correct in his assessment of Tyson ("It is of course virtually certain that Tyson got special consideration on account of his race (and maybe political connections).")—the point is that such an approach to an article is not suitable for Misplaced Pages. The diff includes the assertion that Andyvphil is merely asking whether reliable sources exist to support mention in the article that affirmative action, private or public, played an important role in Tyson's career—that may have been a defensible position if the statement in the diff were made once. However, it was made at the article talk, pursued at Gamaliel's talk, and then at TParis' talk, and now here where Andyvphil hopes the comment will be restored. All that attention to a problematic comment shows insufficient judgment for working on BLPs. Johnuniq (talk) 23:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from Tyson and any other current or future target of the vast right-wing conspiracy. Edits elsewhere have similar bias, and since August 2014 he's edited exclusively at a handful of topics all related to U.S. right-wing politics. --NE2 23:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you joking? How could that ever be a proper topic ban? How would he know which topics he could even talk about? --Obsidi (talk) 02:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Believe me, he would know. Other editors might not, however, so a general ban on U.S. political topics "broadly construed", including related fields like global warming, would be easier to enforce. --NE2 03:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I've looked at the diffs available, and it seems like the only "evidence" of "racism" is Andyvphil saying he believes that Dr. Tyson likely benefited from affirmative action in getting a second chance at his PhD after failing to attain one at UT. How is that racist? Many people benefited from affirmative action. While I doubt that Dr. Tyson was one (it's not terribly uncommon to get a second bite at the apple on a PhD), there's a difference between being "wrong" (which I think Andyvphil is about that issue) and being "racist" (which I don't think he was being in that diff. LHM 23:59, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• This particular claim of "affirmative action" does not appear in any reliable source that I've seen. However, if you Google for "degrasse tyson" and "affirmative action", you will see that it's a meme that has been circulating in right-wing blogs for some time. The bottom line is that Andyvphil appears to have been trying to use Misplaced Pages to promote unsourced or poorly sourced blogosphere memes about living people, and this seems to have been going on for some time if his comments above about Barack Obama's religion are anything to go by. This clearly isn't something that can be tolerated, as it's the antithesis of what BLP is supposed to be about. Prioryman (talk) 06:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction I've read all the comments of this section, and this is seeming to be relating to a dispute that revolves around NDT getting into the school because of his skin color, also the relation to how NDT got dropped of his school. That's an implication that should thrown out in favor of BLP and OR policies, but stating that there are 'no sources' represented when NDT's own interview and two other sources, which I don't appear to have their reliability questioned on this page is representing the former fact, but not the latter. Of course, he should be let off with a stern warning, but otherwise be let off the hook. I also offer no comment on the racism stuff. His conduct is not worthy of any kind of sanction at this time, and I hope even this WP:ANI will scare him into being more conservative with this kind of stuff. If there's a second noticeboard discussion about his conduct, I may support such an action, but not for this time. Tutelary (talk) 00:55, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • His problem is that he's too conservative. Get it? --NE2 00:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Not political ideology, more of a physical approach, taking it slow, easy, non offensive end euphemizing certain things in relation to this type of stuff. Given that his edits will be under a microscope after this, this is a good idea anyways. Tutelary (talk) 01:00, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I know. I was making a bad pun. You didn't see me put on sunglasses? --NE2 01:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban based on an unambiguous pattern of problematic editing established here and here. In what can only be a "coincidence", both incidents, spaced six years apart, concern allegations of racism. When I recently asked Andyvphil where he's made the most contributions to mainpsace lately, he responded the Shooting of Michael Brown. There seems to be an overarching pattern at work here. Viriditas (talk) 01:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

  Is passively-aggressively insinuating that another editor is racist acceptable now? Because there's a lot of that going on in this thread, and as much as I don't like Andyvphil's tone, I have a big problem with that. This is not just about Viriditas's post here, it's about the pattern I see of posting diffs, and claiming they show racism, when that is, at best, a very debatable proposition. LHM 02:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

  I'm sorry you see it that way. I specifically referred to "allegations" for that reason. Personally, I like Andy, but I don't like his comments or edits about BLPs. Viriditas (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from the Tyson BLP at a minimum. Pretty clearly a POV warrior with blocks showing for edit warring and disruptive editing; was hauled to ANI for pointed editing of the Obama page . Clearly drawn to "hot" contemporary political topics. Taking him off the Tyson BLP seems a minimum step. Keeping a close eye for possible future NPOV violations would be highly desirable. Those who war over political content need to be shown the door expeditiously. Carrite (talk) 02:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

That was 6 years ago. Outside this issue his history over the previous 6 years belies your assentation. Arzel (talk) 02:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's just say that — after several years break in editing — a return to WP to dive into Ferguson, MO and the Federalist website, etc. does not inspire confidence that the leopard's spots have changed. Carrite (talk) 03:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

And while combativeness is not disruptiveness, he has seemed a combative fellow. ¶ That aside, "assentation" is a cromulent word. -- Hoary (talk) 03:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban. The evidence points to a problematic history of edits to articles on BLP subjects. -- Calidum 02:22, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban I have a pretty high threshold for supporting topic bans, but the problematic history of BLP edits especially the Tyson article is way over the top. Bishonen sums up the case well. I am One of Many (talk) 03:21, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support - This stuff was being debated at least 5 years ago. Hard to believe it's still going on. It needs to stop. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I note that Andyvphil is now saying on his talk page that if he is topic-banned he "may want to seek attention to it outside Misplaced Pages" and that the problem is not his own conduct but that "the denizens at ANI" are "hostile" to "editors who don't share their political views". There seems to be no recognition whatsoever that anything he has done might have been problematic. I think this pretty much confirms that he is treating Misplaced Pages as a political campaign rather than being here to build an NPOV encyclopedia. This is clearly someone who should be kept well away from any politically sensitive BLPs. Prioryman (talk) 07:16, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Um, no. I said that if I am banned it may help me get outside attention on this sick craziness, going on in Misplaced Pages. It's a bit late for you to get credit for a discovery. I've long since posted my letter to Sean Davis, above, since it has the revdel text in it. Andyvphil (talk) 13:24, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban at a minimum, due to the editors long history of troublesome talk-page behaviour at BLPs at the intersection of politics/current-events and race; endless wikilawering; and constant assumption of bad faith. I find his recent suggestion that admin Gamaliel is being protected due to Gamaliel's lack of "white privilege" pretty disgusting, and unfortunately representative of Andy's attitude towards wiki-"adversaries" (previously he had labelled admins who had enforced his block for disruption at the Barack Obama article as belonging to the mullah class of Misplaced Pages). A BLP topic ban will at least ensure that our article subjects are safe from such tarring. Abecedare (talk) 10:39, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The exact quote from my talk page is, "He seems quite determined that Gamaliel's lack of "white privilege" should protect his bit..." and refers to an admin writing, "... we're approaching this front a life experience of white privilege... Our perception of racism is entirely different. Gamaliel may legitimately have seen racism but he feels that he cannot demonstrate it in a way that our life experience would allow us to see. We also don't want to undermine his feelings whether there is legitimate evidence or not."(emphasis added) This is actually from an editor who who is one of the better admins in my experience, dedicated and generally fair-minded, but he is here falling into the racism of low expectations, IMHO. If you're disgusted by the truth, that's on you. Andyvphil (talk) 13:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban per WP:NOTHERE. I do not have confidence that Andyvphil is capable of adhering to NPOV and BLP policies on biographical articles. Looking through his edit history, one can recognize a pattern of tendentious editing on political topics of the day, especially those that are racially charged. As with his behavior here, too often his engagement on talk pages involves using it as a forum to vent his beliefs which then devolves to thinly-veiled attacks directed at editors who disagree with him. gobonobo 13:59, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban per Gobonobo above. The edits on the Michael Brown page clearly indicate that Andyvphil holds the project and community in quite low regard, as evidenced by this comment: "I must have forgotten that Misplaced Pages talk pages are a reality-free zone in which the conclusions derived from an ordinary human capacity to recognize patterns is to be ignored at all costs." That has to be one of the more extreme characterizations of WP:V, and WP:NOR that I've ever seen. If a topic ban is introduced, I think it should only be lifted upon review, and only with the demonstration from Andyvphil that respect for core policies are central to productively editing here. aprock (talk) 16:19, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban - I'm familiar with Andyvphil's work at Shooting of Michael Brown, where on the talk page he makes comments like "Not every law enforcement agency is as lawless as Holder's DOJ." and "Obama's DOJ has a record of being repeatedly unconcerned with the law, so this incident is not uncharacteristic of it.". That, combined with the evidence presented above lead me believe that Andyvphil has an agenda other than improving BLP articles, and is likely to edit them in a way that is harmful.- MrX 18:59, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Is this comment racist, and if so, what outcome?

I actually cannot tell which part of the deleted comment, from Andyphil's offwiki post referenced above, is supposed to be racist: either:

…I'm told I "fit right in" with "climate change deniers" (notice the smell of "Holocaust denial" in that one)…

— or — 

It is of course virtually certain that got special consideration on account of his race…

Okay, I disagree vehemently with accusing successful people of benefitting from programs designed to reduce inequality and counter the legacy of historical oppression and discrimination. But what about this subject is so sensitive and offensive that we cannot even talk about it in the context of establishing consensus on article content — or even worse, that this leads to banishing a long-term, if contentious, editor from the project? Am I missing a different statement that was more offensive than this? - Wikidemon (talk) 08:21, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

See my comment at 23:43, 21 October 2014 above for my view. Johnuniq (talk) 08:46, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I see your comment, where you criticize me for defending my response to personal attacks at what you consider too many places, all along my path of pursuing unrevdeletion. But that doesn't answer Wikidemon's question, which seems to be: Is this the "comment so egregious it required revision deletion"(Gamaliel) or is there another? Andyvphil (talk) 09:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's racist. You said in your deleted edit that it was "virtually certain that Tyson got special consideration on account of his race". You also said explicitly (of Tyson) "Is there any evidence this guy is actually smart, or has he gotten where he is solely through affirmative action?" You had no evidence for that whatsoever. It certainly hasn't been in any reliable source that I've seen (and I note you've presented none). On the other hand it does seem to be an ongoing meme in the right-wing blogosphere (see ). The assumption behind the meme is that a prominent person of colour owes their status not to their achievements but to a helping hand from white people, i.e. affirmative action, as you said explicitly. I've seen this kind of thing being expressed many times, especially with regard to Barack Obama and other prominent non-whites. What makes it doubly unacceptable in your case is that you not only promoted a racist meme without any evidence whatsoever, you actually sought to edit this BLP to promote the racist meme, as your comments here make clear. In short, you've repeatedly used the talk page of that article to openly denigrate its subject in racially charged terms, in total disregard of WP:BLP. Such complete disregard for BLP rules and your complete failure to admit any errors means that you need to be prevented from editing BLPs in future. Prioryman (talk) 10:00, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

In the circles you travel in it may be assumed by everyone you know that "right-wing" and "racist" are equivalent terms. As far as I know that is still not official policy at Misplaced Pages, and my "right wingedness", if that's what it is, does not disqualify me from editing anything. Andyvphil (talk) 11:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• • You can't tell? Honestly Wikidemon, you can't tell? Only a person of privilege that never had to fight through racist bullshit like that would ever make such a claim. Sheesh. To go along with all the other diffs posted in this thread, the freaking animosity against people of color smacks you right in the face. Dave Dial (talk) 10:20, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
    • No, it is not obvious. It is clear that he has an objection to race-based affirmative action, but so does the majority of America these days, for better or for worse. If discussing the matter merits a ban from Misplaced Pages, then we would have to ban the majority of Americans. - Wikidemon (talk) 10:28, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow...Dave Dial (talk) 10:31, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you flopping, or do you mean that seriously? Is this subject so toxic that we cannot discuss it? Accusing a person of bigotry and kicking them out of the community because they express a particular viewpoint basically shuts down any discussion, it appears to be extreme. - Wikidemon (talk) 10:38, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you might be missing the point, Wikidemon. This isn't about whether someone approves of affirmative action or not. Disappoving of affirmative action is a legitimate position. Repeatedly asserting an unsourced claim as a "virtually certain" fact and campaigning to make a BLP reflect is an illegitimate action and a fundamental violation of WP:BLP principles. That would be true whether the claim was about affirmative action or anything else. And yes, it's patently racist to repeatedly denigrate a living person of colour as owing their position to affirmative action rather than to their own achievements, without any source for such a claim. We shouldn't tolerate that kind of behaviour. Prioryman (talk) 11:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

"...it's patently racist to repeatedly denigrate a living person of colour as owing their position to affirmative action..."

Repeating something I've already said to Gamalael, if you'd bothered to look, I've made no such assertion. It is the case, I learn upthread, that Columbia had an "affirmative action" program. You may wish it were true that this raises no question as to whether reverse discrimination played a role in Tyson's admission to Columbia, but it's just a fact, a non-racist fact, that it does. As I've said repeatedly, if there's nothing about that in the RS there's nothing to put into the article. But I don't trust the resident editors to have told me whether there is or not. If their behavior were less tendentious I'd trust them more. But it's not. Andyvphil (talk) 12:27, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

In what other way could "It is of course virtually certain that ... got special consideration on account of his race" be taken? The existence or otherwise of an affirmative action program is irrelevant. Consider, for example, that an editor says "After politician X was elected, he gave a top job to politician Y, with whom he went to school". And then compare it with "Politician Y got a top job with the government, because he went to school with politician X". See the difference? One is neutral (with perhaps a minor insinuation of impropriety), the second is a BLP violation. Your comment is of the second type; and since it uses race as the differentiator, is therefore also racist. Black Kite (talk) 13:02, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

He said it was "virtually certain that" he "got special consideration". "special consideration" == "affirmative action". Are you really saying that it isn't very likely (one might say "virtually certain") he got an affirmative action bonus on his application? Now maybe that didn't matter because he would have gotten in anyway, and as such we should not include it in the article (without verifiable evidence that it did matter). But I don't consider it racist to talk about things that most people would say are true. Just because its true doesn't mean that it should be included in the article, but banning people from making true statements on the talk page seems to go too far. It would be different if he had actually tried to insert it into mainspace, but that didn't occur here. Or if he had done this on multiple BLP pages (again not this case). --Obsidi (talk) 13:14, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

BLP applies on all pages. Quite apart from that, Andyvphil's other pronouncements about Tyson both here and on his talkpage (not to mention his email to the Federalist) make it very clear that he should be kept as far away from the subject as possible. Black Kite (talk) 13:19, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Clearly BLP policy applies to all pages, but there are differences between how mainspace and talk pages are treated. We work through trying to find sources and argue about sources and debating if something is or is not a BLP violation on talk pages. --Obsidi (talk) 13:26, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Or maybe someone should make an 'affirmative action' template, and all Negro scholars/scientists can be tagged. One template with sourced affirmative action claims, and another with 'possible beneficiary of affirmative action' tag, and then we can ask editors to 'prove' that the negro in question didn't benefit from affirmative action on their article Talk pages. After we get done with all the negroes, we can move to other minorities and women. Dave Dial (talk) 11:39, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

So, you want me blocked for playing a role in your fantasies? Andyvphil (talk) 12:31, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Is it true that you have at least threatened to take this dispute off-wiki? Hence, canvassing off-wiki? If so, that's sufficient reason to block you just in itself. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:43, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

If you want to make a separate charge of canvassing, that's fine, but please don't mix it into the arguments about if this is racism.--15:03, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not charging, I'm asking. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:08, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

"It is of course virtually certain that got special consideration on account of his race", if uncited to a valid source, is a POV violation and also expresses the standard white-supremacist viewpoint about affirmative action and the like. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:45, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• I've said it before, but I'll say it again. There is a vast gulf between a comment that I believe is wrong, and one that is racist. Voicing an opinion that a given person of color may well have benefited from affirmative action falls, in my view, well on the side of "wrong", but not "racist." LHM 15:08, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• There's a huge gap between discussing whether someone may have benefited from AA, and stating it, without any evidence, with the insinuation that they wouldn't have gained that qualification had they not been black. See also AVP's talk page, where he calls Tyson a liar and a number of other things. See also AVP's previous "interesting" views on race. Get rid, it's the only way. Black Kite (talk) 17:26, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• Andyvphil also added: “'... Columbia's graduate school is one of the finest in North America, with rigorous standards for degree candidates.' Has anyone seen anything in the sources which would explain why a washout from UTA was adjudged to have met those standards?” He says it’s virtually certain race had something to do with a washout's acceptance. Not, for example, the fact that Tyson had already graduated from Harvard or that he already had a Master’s degree from UT. Add to that "Is there any evidence this guy is actually smart, or has he gotten where he is solely through affirmative action?" He is opining "solely". Does that mean Harvard just looked at the color of his skin and handed him a degree? What do some people have to do to get a bit of respect? Objective3000 (talk) 15:16, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Battling over such stuff suggests an agenda on the part of a user. I recall five or six years ago when we were flooded with agenda-pushers, and it was a nightmare. Most of them ended up indef'd. If the editor in question continues down this path, he'll be thrown onto that same Misplaced Pages trash heap. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

More WP:OR immediately following a block

Kkm010 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Following this discussion only two weeks ago, Kkm was blocked for edit-warring and for unapologetically adding his own original research and "analysis" to various corporate articles. Even while the discussion was ongoing, Kkm continued to make the same sort of edits. He was blocked for that and for edit-warring to keep his original research in various articles.

Immediately following his return to editing, he added exactly the same type of original research (raw financial data, disingenuously cited with his own interpretations) to two different articles. I reverted both edits and warned him for those. My reverts were reverted, but with the addition of slightly better sources. But Kkm is at it again, adding the same Google Finance data, calling it an "annual report" and using the raw data to extrapolate year-on-year financial results.

There was a commitment from Kkm during the last ANI discussion that he would discontinue his OR spree. That commitment was obviously as disingenuous as his sourcing. I really don't know what else to do - I've tried warning, discussing, reverting, discussing again, discussing here (for which he was blocked) and more warning. What is it going to take for this disruptive behaviour to be stopped? St★lwart 10:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty well established that adding (or subtracting ) numbers together isn't OR. He can show where he got the numbers from, and unless the contention is that google's unreliable, he's doing nothing more that basic addition or subtraction. This doesn't appear to be OR. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

You've lost me. It was established that what he was adding was original research in the last ANI discussion and he agreed to stop doing it. The block was for original research. But he's back at it. It's not simply a matter of "adding (or subtracting) numbers". He's posting raw financial data, extrapolating results and claiming the data is in fact an annual report from the company in question. Completely false. The reliability of Google isn't in question - it's not a source published by Google at all; it's the raw search results Kkm got when he plugged the stock exchange code into Google. The issue here is not the acceptability of the edits themselves (it was established they were completely unacceptable and even Kkm agreed as much while at the same time pleading ignorance). The issue is that the IDHT attitude has continued beyond the original block. St★lwart 11:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Stalwart111, looking at the page he linked to shows the numbers he says are there, and where he says increase or decrease, it's obvious that that indeed is what it is. He's not making up numbers, nor is he comparing source a to source b and coming up with C. He's reporting the numbers on the website (which is google finance) and stating if it's an increase or a decrease. That portion is not OR. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:39, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Perhaps this shouldn't be qualifies as the "Annual Report" which is an actual document likely produced by the company and Google Finance does not (as far as I saw) claim to be directly reproducing that report. There may be an issue of if Google Finance is an RS for this type of thing, but assuming it is, the increase/decrease stuff clearly falls within WP:CALC Gaijin42 (talk) 16:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• As Gaijin42 said, it is also disingenuous to call the Google finance search an Annual Report. Anyone who is familiar with financial parlance would know that an Annual Report is released by the company and includes far more than just the numerical data for cash flow, etc. As it is now, the labeling is misleading to the reader as to the true provenance of that source. Blackmane (talk) 22:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• As I said on Kosh's talk page - I have no real interest in re-prosecuting the case against Kkm. That was well established in the last thread about exactly the same behaviour. There is no "annual report" - that's an invention of Kkm's who is trying to pass his interpretation (or calculation) of financial results off as the work of the company itself or Google Finance. The sources in question are not either of those things. The issue here is an editor returning after a block and thumbing his nose at the community by immediately re-starting the same sort of editing that got him blocked in the first place. If consensus has changed in the last two weeks and Kkm's actions are no longer a blockable offence (which seems strange without considerable community discussion) then I'll move on and stop putting effort into stopping what is obviously disruptive behaviour. St★lwart 22:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Err, "There is no annual report...." What's the link he's referring to ? The link shows a report on google finance for that company. It's not an invention by Kkm , unless you want to claim that he put together an OR report, then somehow got google finance to carry it ? KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:24, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

What? Where is the report? Annual report means something specific - something a long way away from that which Kkm calls, "2014 Annual Report". ZTE. Retrieved 2014-03-19. Besides the obviously wrong date and wrong attribution, the link isn't to an "Annual Report" at all - it's to a set of google search results - a raw Google Finance data sheet for the company that you get by plugging the relevant stock exchange code into google and hitting "search". It's not an "Annual Report" by any stretch of the imagination (it's not even a published "report" in any sense of the word) and includes specific disclaimers (from Google) that it's not what Kkm claims it to be. You'd get the same data by walking into a stock exchange and copying down the numbers from the board. There is not a single part of that citation which is honest and genuine - every part of it is false. Kkm knows this, has been warned about this and has edit-warred to keep this sort of thing in article to the point where he was blocked. And he's at it again. St★lwart 12:44, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

• As with the last thread, Kkm has refused to explain himself either here or on his talk page (last time we got broken English contributions demanding we explain what he had done wrong, even while he undid his own edits). Nothing here at all. But again, Kkm has quietly acknowledged the issue, reverting himself and replacing the "source". Surely fortnightly ANI reports is an inefficient way of preventing disruption? Can we get some admin action here? Dare I ping DP whose warnings Kkm is ignoring? St★lwart 13:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

That link actually has the quarterly and annual data for that particular company, and he's accurately reporting what the numbers say in that annual report without any calculations. Time to drop it Stalwart, there's no OR here. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 13:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Repeated recreation

Hi. Exploter has been created and speedied twice. Can we put a block on it or do we need to wait for the third time? Thanks Gbawden (talk) 10:56, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we need to do anything yet. Since both creations have been by the same editor, we can simply block him if he continues recreating it, and at any rate we normally don't salt a page with just two creations. I've left a personalised note for the editor, trying to explain why continued creation is a bad idea. Nyttend (talk) 12:39, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Socks

Recently, a rotating IP was commenting at WT:MOSNUM. It was clear he was a sock-puppet of someone, potentially banned-editor DeFacto. As such, that page was semi-protected. Now new IP addresses of the same ilk are following me around. It is time this charade stopped. Would someone care to do something about this IP jumping disruptive somebody? It shouldn't require an SPI. This guy is a clear sock-puppet of someone, and his IP-hopping is familiar. RGloucester — ☎ 17:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I caught RGloucester trying to conceal their bad faith removal (see the edit summary) of an 'oppose' to their proposal on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard. They have decided to try to retaliate by throwing unsubstantiated socking accusations about a worthless ip editor. WP:SPI is the place to get sock allegations investigated. This followed his similarly bad faith request on Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection which was accepted at face value by an obliging administrator. RGloucester is getting too big for his boots, and throwing his weight around unchallenged, it seems. Please look at the background and the facts behind this action before jumping to any conclusions on it please. 94.196.87.132 (talk) 18:15, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Spare me, please. I removed that "oppose" because it wasn't really an "oppose". It was off-topic disruption that was retaliation for my previous support for administrative action against that editor, rather than anything having to do with the general sanctions proposal. Regardless, it is quite clear that you are not just "some IP", so please give up the act. RGloucester — ☎ 18:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

It was an "oppose" to your proposal you had no right to remove it. You took it off topic, threw allegations, and then thought better of it and tried to conceal it. You should have gone to an uninvolved party to get it challenged, not just revert it with a misleading edit summary. I am an unregistered reader of Misplaced Pages, dragged by you into your mire. 94.196.87.132 (talk) 18:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Rather than removing the whole thread, it would have been wiser to have left it or ask for it to be collapsed. When I, or any other ANI gnomes, see threads that aren't germane to the overall discussion we collapse them to keep the discussion on track. As for the IP hopping, I'm somewhat dubious that it is DeFacto. DeFacto has a fairly strict MO that makes it pretty easy to pick them out, which I won't detail per WP:BEANS. SPI isn't for fishing and a case would have to be pretty strong (even per WP:DUCK) to block (or range block) them outright without an SPI. Blackmane (talk) 21:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)striking through latter comment as the DUCKishness is rather strong.

That's fine, and if you'd like to reinsert it and collapse it, please do. I'm not sure what you meant when you struck out your remarks. I think the case is pretty strong that this fellow is a sock of some sort. I would not be surprised if it was De Facto, given that he has been doing the exact same thing with imperial units, and is now attempting to torpedo an attempt to bring the discussion over units in UK articles under control. His rotating IPs, which he has used at MOSNUM and now at AN, are all connected. What's more, it seems that De Facto used similar IPs early on in his sock campaign. RGloucester — ☎ 23:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Well, if this is who y'all think it is, a range block is in order. I blocked one IP since I do not approve of edit warring with an administrator on an admin noticeboard, but they were very polite to me, for which I thank them. Drmies (talk) 00:21, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies: Take a look at the SPI archive for DeFacto. IPs from the same ISP were associated with DeFacto and blocked way back in 2012. Specifically, the connection is quite clear in these accounts created by DeFacto. RGloucester — ☎ 01:49, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but there's nothing I can do with any of that information. Even if I learned it and decided it was DeFacto, I'm still not capable of placing a range block and that's what you need. I'd probably deprive all of England from editing Misplaced Pages--Manchester included. And where would that leave us? Drmies (talk) 02:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, at least we wouldn't need to argue over miles and metres anymore! RGloucester — ☎ 03:12, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I've opened a new SPI case, given that that seems necessary. RGloucester — ☎ 04:24, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I struck my latter comment as I hadn't read through the linked diffs thoroughly. The IP's "tone" if you will at MOSNUM was distinctly similar to DeFacto. Blackmane (talk) 04:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Legal threat?

Socks on my userpage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I appear to have been invaded, would someone mind helping? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Quickest thing would be to request page protection. Would stop IP's and non-confirmed users editing it.Amortias (T)(C) 23:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Already done. RGloucester — ☎ 23:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

And its protected. Amortias (T)(C) 23:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to those who helped. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:28, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

It's no problem reverting userpage vandalism. It helps when you have rollback. I've had to fight off vandalism by a proxy IP on my talk almost single-handedly. In any case, that's all I really have to say about this. Dustin (talk) 23:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Group of editors engaging in harassment, censorship and cyberbullying

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A group of editors has been heavily harassing, censoring and cyberbullying innocent newcomers and those newcomers are paying the price. Over at Weekly Shōnen Jump, good information added is being reverted without reason .

This is obvious censorship and these editors obviously are very biased and wish to remove all criticism about the article. They have claimed all editors that disagree with them to be "sockpuppets" to make their censorship seem legit. They protected the article therefore censoring it and now they have protected the TALK PAGE too. They block all accounts that disagree with them as "sockpuppets" so they will not be questioned. These editors are obviously cyberbullying.This needs to stop. Knappilicious (talk) 05:45, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

1) New account's first edit is to ANI. Second and third account are to blue link their signature. This is not a legitimate use of an alternate account. Please return to your main account - this one will shortly be blocked.--v/r - TP 05:55, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but I'm afraid if I return to my main account, those editors will start harassing me. I'm afraid that will happen, as I'm a user with 10,000+ edits! Knappilicious (talk) 06:10, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Legal threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This has gone from bad to worse. User:Jaime-Ordonez-Victoria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Someone else deal with him! please.LeadSongDog come howl! 05:56, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

This is unacceptable. I've blocked indefinitely pending a clarification and retraction. --Kinu /_c 06:01, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

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